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Aug. 9, 2023 - Doug Collins Podcast
35:42
The Rise and Fall of the FBI
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You want to listen to a podcast?
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Georgia GOP Congressman Doug Collins.
How is it?
The greatest thing I have ever heard in my whole life.
I could not believe my ears.
In this house, wherever the rules are disregarded, chaos and mob rule.
It has been said today, where is bravery?
I'll tell you where bravery is found and courage is found.
It's found in this minority who has lived through the last year of nothing but rules being broken, people being put down, questions not being answered, and this majority say, be damned with anything else.
We're going to impeach and do whatever we want to do.
Why?
Because we won an election.
I guarantee you, one day you'll be back in the minority and it ain't gonna be that fun.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Glad to have you with us today.
You do not want to miss a minute.
Stick with us.
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So, hey, just grab a Coke, go down the highway, and listen to us as we go.
Today, we've got a great show Tom Baker's on from former FBI agent, 33 years of service, and he is going to talk about, really, where the FBI started going off the rails.
And how it's affecting people today, how it's affecting the FBI, the standing in our world, but also affecting how investigations are not being done, to be honest, and how the political biases come into it.
You know, one of the interesting things that he and I talked about was the fact that the FBI moved from an investigative organization to an intelligence gathering organization.
And we're seeing this every day.
I mean, whether it be from the issues with the pro-life protesters, we're seeing it with School boards.
We're seeing it with the, I mean, frankly, up to the Hunter Biden investigation, the Donald Trump investigation, and others.
This political bias is becoming more and more obvious, and it's really contributing to this perception that has become reality of a two-tier system of justice here in the country.
He's got a great new book out.
You're going to hear all about it.
After the break, Tom Beck, former FBI agent, is going to be here to talk about all of this today on the Doug Collins Podcast.
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Tom, you've had 33 years.
You're like my dad.
My dad was a Georgia State Trooper for 31 years.
He started in the mid-early 60s, retired 31 years later.
I see your path is a long one as well.
Let's just start off the podcast by saying, how did you get started with the FBI? What brought you there?
Okay, well, as I explain in my book, my granddad had been a police officer in Brooklyn, actually, and then his two sons, who I knew quite well, my uncles, had both been police officers, and as I was growing up, I'd hear their stories, their adventures.
It kind of inspired me, so as I got to the finish of college, I wanted to join the New York City Police Department.
However, a couple of people talked to me and told me I could join the FBI, and that's what I did.
All right.
Well, in doing so, now, tell us a little bit about your career before we get into some of the stuff right now, because I've had more dealings than I ever thought about having in the last few years with the FBI and the problems they're having, and we're going to get into that a little bit.
But I do want people, and I mean this sincerely, you know, coming from a law enforcement background, my dad and And a lot of my family members, you know, I'm still firmly convinced that most of the FBI's problems are sitting in off of Pennsylvania Avenue up there for the most part and not in the local field offices.
I think they're out, you know, wanting to do a good job, but they're, you know, leaderless right now in many ways.
So sort of talk about how, you know, how was it breaking in in the in the because that would have been still the Hoover era that I mean, you came in in an interesting time.
And how did back then?
I know they moved you a good bit.
Just talk a little bit about that.
Oh, they moved us a lot.
But let me tell you, Doug, It was a great adventure, and I created a sub-theme in my book of the good, the bad, and the ugly, because I didn't want it all to be the ugly, this terrible stuff, as you say, in leadership and culture that's happened in the past few years.
So I told a lot of the adventures, the historical cases that I'm not saying I was a central character in, but I had knowledge of.
I was on the scene, including the attempted assassination of President Reagan.
Later the investigations of the Pan Am 103 and TWA crash, and there's a lot of public interest in a lot of these historical cases.
But when we were in those days, and this is a significant point I make in the book, a lot of our time in the classroom was spent on the Constitution.
Because we were a law enforcement agency, we are orientated towards the Constitution, and of course in the Constitution, a lot of the time was spent on the Bill of Rights, particularly the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment.
And what was very interesting, and a lot of people, some defense attorneys, find it hard to believe when I tell them this, but we were told that we should not view the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment as an obstacle to be overcome, that we should embrace it.
And it went so far as one instructor gave us all a pocket-sized copy of the Constitution and told us to keep it with us in our pocket.
And when we're interviewing a citizen or when we're searching somebody's home, if we have the Constitution in our pocket, we won't go wrong, we won't go off the track.
And a lot of us took that seriously.
I know it sounds to some people as corny, but that's how serious the Constitution was in our training in the FBI, the pre-September 11th FBI. Well, I can understand that.
And going back to your time, do you...
Because, you know, just from popular myth and just in real work, the FBI was always sort of held out, you know, differently depending on, you know, how it was working.
I mean, some good, as you said, good, bad, and ugly.
I mean, you go back through history here.
How did you see...
The 60s, 70s, you know, into the 80s, because that would have been, you know, the early part of your career into the sort of middle management part of your career.
How did you see the FBI change?
Because it was definitely a whirlwind change from the older days, you know, from the Johnson administration, the Hoover administration, you know, moving through, you know, into more of a modern, you know, facility, if you would.
How did that, how was that in law enforcement for you from the FBI perspective?
Doug, that's an excellent question.
There were a number of changes going back earlier.
One of the most significant things was the FBI always, and this is in a lot of the history books, It was called upon, and some say it was just J. Edgar Hoover, but it was the FBI, was called upon by the national leadership, whoever the president was at the time, FDR, certainly in World War II, then Truman, then Eisenhower, then Kennedy, then Johnson, Lyndon Johnson, was called upon to get them information about what was going on.
And we had the Pipe Committee And similar committees in the mid-70s pointing out certain abuses that came about, not just with the FBI, but with the intelligence community in general and the way they were handled.
So what happened then?
The Congress of the United States, which you were once part of, wisely enacted the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
We hear so much about now, FISA. And what that did, that set up a legal framework For obtaining intelligence on foreign agents resident in this country.
And we all know that a lot of these people work out of embassies and other diplomatic establishments.
So FISA was enacted in 1978. Judge William Webster had just become the FBI Director.
He set up the gold standard for using Pfizer.
The law initially required that the Director of the FBI and the Attorney General had to sign off on any individual Pfizer warrant.
And Judge Webster was meticulous about this.
All of these applications for Pfizer warrants were reviewed very carefully and closely.
But they were only to be used on foreign agents, not U.S. citizens, and only to gather intelligence, not to gather evidence.
And in those early years, we now know because of the reports, there were only a couple of hundred every year.
Then we had the September 11th attacks, and after that, Pfizer was amended and amended again and again, and now can legally be used against U.S. citizens.
And we saw that in the Carter Page thing where there were four FISA warrants against him.
That's a perversion of the original intention of the act.
The act was never intended to gather information from U.S. citizens.
There are procedures in the criminal code for using electronic surveillance on U.S. citizens and it requires a higher standard of probable cause than the FISA warrants do.
I think that's one of the big changes and that abuse That situation can be corrected by the Congress.
Yeah, I agree.
And that's one of the things we were trying to do when I was there, especially in the last part.
I think it's very important for listeners to understand on this podcast.
And again, you write about it in your book, again, as we'll call it out, The Fall of the FBI, How Once a Great Agency Became a Threat to Democracy.
This sort of hits that right there, because what we were seeing was, is when you expanded it through the Patriot Act, through the other things that expanded this out, It was no longer, as you sort of rightly say, when it was first pointed out, it was foreign agents on American soil.
And now it's been opened up to where you have American citizens under this as well.
And what we were trying to do, again, is to keep it, I think some of the checks and balances, you always talk about having the pocket constitution, but having somebody, others, because now, Tom, the reality is you've had The inspector general say, and DOJ inspector general and others say, that it's been abused, and that the FBI abused the FISA process.
They have sent wrong information to the court.
We know that Comey has signed off on FISA warrants that he did not have the verification.
We saw that in the Russia collusion issue.
We saw it on everything.
There's got to be a balance here where you can't have political agendas and a law being used without some kind of at least check and balance, which doesn't always tip, which wouldn't tip off those that you're trying to get information on, but protects it before it ever gets started.
Well, you're absolutely right.
And in allowing it to be used against Americans and loosening up the requirements, for instance, as I said, originally it was The Director and the Attorney General had to sign off on every final application.
That's been expanded and expanded and now in both agencies there's a half a dozen people who can sign off on it.
It's become promiscuous, the use of FISA. When there were only a couple of hundred a year back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, now there's four and five thousand a year.
These statistics are made public about a year after the fact.
So it's being widely used and And we saw the sloppiness, beyond sloppiness, but it was sloppiness in the Carter Page warrant, which really opened up a window into the whole situation.
I think not only the Congress has a role to play, but actually the judiciary who approves these, they have to get a lot more tough in questioning what's put before them.
I agree.
And I think federal judges are finally starting to do that a little bit.
But again, there's that equal balance.
And I'm going to hit this before we go back to something else.
It seemed like we did the old analogy after 9-11 that we were willing to trade our privacy, willing to trade our freedoms for security.
And you had those in power who were willing to say, look, and they used the excuse of, we don't ever want to have another 9-11.
Well, Again, 9-11 was an anomaly.
Was it terrible?
Yes, it was awful.
And we need to, you know, we should have done more with some of the countries actually involved with that.
But to give up the amount of stuff, do you think, Tom, that people really realize, and this is funny because my producer and I, we talk about this all the time.
Do you really think that people realize how much the government actually knows about them or have the ability to know about them?
Doug?
You just hit on it and you started to get into something that's very, very important.
And I know you're a bit of a historian yourself.
Whenever there's been a crisis in our history, there are things done that seem justified at the time that in retrospect were an abuse.
And I'll go all the way back to the American Civil War and Abraham Lincoln, now a beloved president, And truly was a great man, but he suspended habeas corpus.
He enacted a lot of things that were in violation of the rights of Americans at that time.
Then we had World War II under FDR. We were attacked by the Empire of Japan at Pearl Harbor, but yet there were things done on the west coast of the United States by FDR in the internment of Japanese citizens.
We're interned.
That was a gross violation of rights and everybody today acknowledges and agrees with that.
And I submit to you that similar things happened after the September 11th attacks in an effort To respond to those attacks, and some of it happens specifically with and inside the FBI. Yeah, and that is true.
And it goes back to something now, and I want to tie something together, and let's see if we can play this together a little bit.
You talked about, you know, the pot committee, you talked about the issues of intelligence coming out of the late 70s.
A lot of it doing with I mean again when I dealt with impeachment and I dealt with going back to history because one of the things that I wanted to be sure of at least from our perspective when they were trying to impeach Donald Trump was is I was looking at the historical nature of it because frankly it is it had not been done it was not being done properly then but if you looked at how it was done earlier you began to see the patterns and one of the ones that I actually looked at a great deal was the Nixon impeachment hearings which lasted multiple years by the way and Then the abuse of,
really, of intelligence and intelligence gathering.
Interestingly enough, the 60s, with the Civil Rights Movement, with the hippies, everything else that was going on at that time, one of the more interesting ones was, to me, is it came out of that, is the FBI was moving a little bit more and more toward, when you're earlier in your career, Away from some of that mission that you talked about.
And whether it was, you know, you go back to the Chicago 7, you go back to a lot of these issues around civil rights and other things and what they were gathering.
And then it became Congress, like you said, that said, okay, wait, wait, it took a major thing like Watergate to really bring it on.
Do you think we're at a point now to where it's major enough to where you can have maybe Republicans and Democrats agree, we don't need this kind of observation going on unchecked?
Well, yes, and let's hope so.
As you know, Your colleague, your former colleague, Congressman Jim Jordan, has had a series of hearings.
Some of them are wonderful, I mean, really important information to light.
But for the most part, the Democrats are sort of stonewalling it and throwing up obstacles at every turn, with a few exceptions.
And I think maybe we'll see more and more exceptions among the Democrats.
Let's hope so, because these threats to Americans' rights affect people on the left as well as on the right.
And I think when you get to the issue of controlling free speech, which we saw in the Twitter files, monitoring free speech, a lot of Democrats are now starting to express some concern about that as well.
So perhaps we'll get the bipartisanship that allowed the reforms that happened after Watergate to happen again.
Speaking of that, Tom, from your perspective, did it shock you as much as it did some of us?
Again, I say shock, but we knew some of this was going on, especially when we were investigating and stuff.
But it is still stunning to me that the FBI... One of the latest that we've heard is the FBI... And we're not even got into the Biden administration or anything else.
We're just a...
From an intelligence and from a censoring point of view, we're now finding out in the last couple of months through what Jim and others have done there on these investigative committees that FBI was taking basically requests from places like the Ukraine and other places and taking them to social media to get what they wanted taken down.
I mean, can you ever imagine a time in which the FBI was being used as a messenger service For censorship?
Well, that specific example you gave about the Ukraine, that's the Ukrainian Intelligence Service, that is so completely outrageous.
And there was, in one of the hearings only about two weeks ago, and I'm sorry I forget the woman's name, but a congresswoman from Indiana was particularly outraged about that and knew that very incident very well because she had been briefed on it.
And this was when Chris Ray, the director of the FBI, was testifying, and she asked him about that.
And he really stonewalled her and was very evasive.
It was extraordinarily disappointing.
And she got quite angry with him, trying to express herself.
And the fact of the matter is, as she explained, the Ukrainian intelligence service, everybody in Western intelligence knows, has been totally infiltrated by the Russians.
The current president of the Ukraine, Zelensky, knows that, has admitted that and acknowledged that, and has fired or dismissed something like 600 employees from that agency.
But yet we have the Ukrainian intelligence service, Making a request to the FBI to take down certain social media postings posted by U.S. citizens.
And they did it.
And Craig, in trying to answer her, said to her, well, it's a very complicated situation.
We can't explain it here now.
I mean, what a poor answer.
He should have been ready to give an answer.
He actually should have been ready to step forward with Congress that very day.
Make good use of his time, admit there's been problems, and commit to cleaning them up.
Yeah, Victoria Sparks is the congresswoman of Indiana that brought that up, and it was an interesting point of view.
But look, I've had similar issues with Chris Ray.
I've known him with him, been known for now multiple years, and had to deal with him in Congress when he was FBI director.
I'm very frustrated that he Again, we go back to a lot of things.
Perception is reality.
And the perception is that he's not handled the issues inside his own department.
And they may have gotten rid of some people that were going anyway, from Comey to McCabe to Strzok to some others.
Or, I think, again, the discussion is still there.
But, I mean, the culture has not changed.
And I'm hearing from more and more FBI agents in the field, Over time, that they're tired of answering for really what they believe is the stupidity of Washington in these cases, because let's turn quickly to that.
It is amazing to me what we saw in the Mueller investigation, what we saw in this Operation Crossfire Hurricane, back and forth.
If that doesn't scare both left and right, I'm not sure what will.
Well, you're absolutely right.
And I'm very sure you're familiar with Chris Ray, because I know he's originally based there in Atlanta, Georgia, himself.
But what he's consistently done, and it really is frustrating to a lot of us, is he keeps saying, well, the bad apples have been fired.
We've gotten rid of the bad apples.
But he's not looking at the underlying cultural problem and addressing the underlying cultural problem.
To me, that's the entire issue.
That is what has to be done.
I agree with you.
And I think that's, you know, again, until something changed.
But also you have, frankly, an attorney general that is just asleep at the wheel.
And, you know, that's another issue that you have here.
One of the things, let's turn quickly also as well to really the updated version of what's going on now, because I see this.
And Tom, in particular, there are many conservatives, apart from party and even liberal Democrats who are saying this as well, it has become so obvious the different standards in which the FBI opens investigations into conservatives, I'll just use that as the terminology, not political party, but I'll say conservatives, or somebody around Donald Trump, as opposed to somebody around a Hillary Clinton or a Joe Biden.
And this investigation into, I just love from a field officer perspective, this Hunter Biden investigation and the whistleblowers that have now came out with IRS, because I'm sure you probably worked with IRS agents as well.
Can you just describe for Americans, maybe, you know, non-legally, just how bad that is?
Well, it's very bad.
And number one, for all Americans, The perception does exist, and widely, that there is this imbalance.
That's number one.
That's not healthy that we have that, that people don't think justice is even-handed.
In the Hunter Biden laptop investigation, it really has been mishandled terribly.
I say Hunter Biden laptop investigation, as you now know, it's broadened out more into a Biden investigation.
But initially, when those intelligence officers made that statement just before the election, the last presidential election, that this information smacked of Russian disinformation, the FBI already knew that the laptop was genuine.
I mean, the laptop It's incredible.
And I'm not plugging other people's books, but Miranda Devine wrote a book just based on the information in the laptop.
And of course, Hunter Biden had all his texts, his schedules, his appointments, his emails.
In that email, in that email.
Laptop.
And the FBI has the technical ability within a matter of days, if not a matter of hours, to analyze a laptop and determine if it's genuine.
They had already determined that.
So this thing went forward.
The bad information got put out there, which was unnecessary.
And now we know, back in December, and Reyes acknowledged this, an ASAC, assistant agent in charge, in the Washington field office was allowed to leave, walk out the door, because they found he had been slowing down the laptop investigation.
So there's been a lot of foot dragging in that.
It has to be addressed.
Now we have information, which once again, thanks to the Congress, has come to light with the suspicious activity reports, the filings by banks about suspicious money movement, and other informant information.
It's clear there's, to anybody, it's clear there's something wrong there, perhaps a big corruption scandal, and yet, for almost five years, since 2017, the same year Chris Ray became director, this thing has been piddling along, making very little progress.
Well, it is, and I think you look at that, and I'll just give the comparison here.
Look at the disinformation, the lack of concern, and this brought out in the hearing the other day that the Democrats were actually saying, well, he was not president, he was a candidate.
Well, okay, I'll take that premise that Biden, you know, that he was a candidate, so we shouldn't have done some of this stuff to him.
Let's just say you accept that.
Then what was the problem in 2016 when Coming straight off of Jim Comey basically playing the only law enforcement officer in the country and also playing a lawyer at the same time as Attorney General saying, you know, well, no reasonable prosecutor would bring anything against Hillary Clinton after bleached emails, everything else.
And then here's what, Tom, a lot of people don't realize.
That less than 15 days, I think it was, I have to go and check my timeline, 15 to 20 days from that event in Cleveland at the Republican National Convention was the beginning of the questioning of Donald Trump and the way of Operation Crossfire Hurricane that then continued on before the election and through the election in 2017. This has struck and others.
I mean, I can understand partisan.
I've been partisan in many things in my life, but I just can't understand overlooking the obvious just problem here.
So the question comes, is this a...
Problem of a D.C. bureau that has become inbred in many ways to thinking the same way, doing the same thing, going to the same parties, going to the same thing and promoting each other.
They don't get out in the field much anymore.
And the separation from your field offices to the agents who are out there doing it every day.
Doug, all of that, you gave a specific example there, but it goes back to the change in culture.
And unfortunately, this began days after the September 11th attacks.
As you, as undoubtedly you know, but a lot of people don't realize it, Bob Mueller, Bob Mueller of special counsel fame or infamy, became the director of the FBI just two or three days before the September 11th attacks that happened on a Tuesday.
On the following Saturday morning, he was summoned to the presidential compound in Camp David, Maryland to give a report of the investigation.
At least that's what he thought he was there for.
And in those essentially three and a half days between Tuesday and Saturday morning, the FBI had done what it does best.
Investigate.
And they had identified all 19 hijackers, their financing, their past travel, their associates, their connections back to Al-Qaeda.
And when he was done presenting that report, expecting some praise, instead George W. Bush looked at him and said, I don't care about that.
I just want to know how you're going to prevent the next one.
Bob Mueller said he left that meeting bound and determined to change the culture of the FBI. And he used that word, culture.
He wanted to change it away from a law enforcement mindset to an intelligence mindset.
That had some bad and unintended and very bad consequences.
Yeah.
Well, and it does because it takes you away from the thing that you do best, and that is investigate.
And you came up with the leaders of the movement.
We started seeing the videotape.
And then, now look, afterwards we started seeing how the FBI had certain knowledge.
We had CIA had certain knowledge.
We had other intelligence communities had other knowledge, and nobody was talking to each other.
That is a problem, and that was something that could be addressed.
But this overreaching gauntlet of the Patriot Act, which I got to know Jim Sensenbrenner very well.
Jim was the chairman of the Judiciary Committee when that was written.
He was the lead sponsor on it.
And I got to know Jim very well, especially in his later years in Congress.
And the perversion of what was put in there bothered him greatly.
And if you watched any of the hearings in Mueller and others, he was always very, very abrupt and very quick to say that's not what this was about.
This was supposed to be, you know, you've taken this law and abused it, in essence, is what he said.
Going forward, how, I guess maybe a question, and I'm not sure I have an answer here, so this is sort of open-ended.
How do we get out of this mess?
Well, that's key.
The number one thing, the FBI and the Department of Justice have to do a lot of it themselves internally in changing the culture.
Granted, that's not easy, but it can be done.
It's done in the corporate world from time to time.
People have written books about a changing culture in the corporate world.
The first thing you have to do, of course, is recognize the problem.
And that's what Chris Ray seems to have been reluctant to do.
He keeps ascribing all the problems to the bad apples.
But there are concrete things within the FBI and the Department of Justice that can be done.
One is, Mueller centralized these so-called sensitive investigations at headquarters.
That was a mistake.
He did it first with the September 11th attacks, and then it was done with the Hillary Clinton emails later under Comey and the Russian collusion investigation.
So you lost the layers of traditional layers of review.
For example, Typically in the FBI, a case is run by a case agent in the field.
He's closely supervised by his field supervisor.
Then there's a special agent in charge of that office reviewing what that person does, and only later does headquarters get involved in looking at it.
What Comey and Mueller did, they did away with all those layers of review on these headquarters specials.
So you have a situation which we saw, it's documented now thanks to the Durham report, In the Russian collusion investigation, we have one guy in headquarters, a very high-level executive, Strzok, Peter Strzok, a deputy assistant director, making the decisions in the case and then also doing the investigations in the case.
He opened that case on a Sunday.
He wrote the opening communication.
He signed out the opening communication himself.
And on Monday morning, he went, flew to London, England, to conduct the first interview in that investigation.
As is now documented by the Durham Report, which, by the way, validates a lot of the things I assert in my book, there was no justification for opening that investigation whatsoever.
It was really a travesty.
And that's something that can be changed, getting away from this headquarter-centered management and devolving management again to the field officers.
Well, I think this is an important thing, you know, Tom, that we've been talking about.
And I think people have, on this podcast, we've talked about it a great deal.
I wrote about some of this in my book on the impeachment.
But what you're dealing with is, again, goes back to the real heart of this culture, folks.
And so, you know, not giving away your book, you've done a great job talking about these issues.
Folks, if you want to learn more about this, This is Tom Baker, Thomas Baker.
He's 33 years with a special agent with the FBI. He wrote a book called The Fall of the FBI, How a Once Great Agency Became a Threat to Democracy.
And Tom, I'm sure you can get that book anywhere.
Is that right?
Yes, it's available on Amazon where most people get their books and on Barnes& Noble.
I appreciate you mentioning it.
No problem.
We're going to put a link in it here in the notes for the podcast.
So folks, if you want to go, just click on the link.
You can go purchase this book.
Tom, thank you so much.
We may swing back with you later as we continue to see this fall out.
I'm hopeful for change, but I'm very frustrated in the fact right now.
That there's not a mechanism for that change.
And as someone who's been in D.C. a great deal, knowing how it works and how it doesn't work, this is going to be a continuation of a problem.
But, Tom, you've laid out a lot of issues here.
Love to get back with you.
Maybe sometime we'll go back and talk to the 60s and 70s because that was sort of the Wild West, if you would, in FBI. And you were just getting your teeth cut then.
Okay.
Well, thank you, Doug.
I'd be glad to do that.
And thank you for all the good you do.
Well, thanks so much.
You have a great day.
And then, folks, that's it for the Doug Collins Podcast.
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Click on there, hit subscribe.
You get all the information just like this.
This is a great discussion, folks, about what actually is going on in the FBI, why it became part...
And Tom laid out something that's very interesting, and that is the move and the culture shift away from the traditional role of FBI investigating and doing those things to this more intelligence role that I think is exactly right.
The centralization in Washington, D.C. has now made it a politicized role, and that's got to actually change.
So, folks, you take that into consideration.
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