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Feb. 18, 2022 - Doug Collins Podcast
01:06:46
What does it take to run a Political Campaign these days?
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It has been said today, where is bravery?
I'll tell you where bravery is found and courage is found.
It's found in this minority who has lived through the last year of nothing but rules being broken, people being put down, questions not being answered, and this majority say, be damned with anything else.
We're going to impeach and do whatever we want to do.
Why?
Because we won an election.
I guarantee you, one day you'll be back in the minority and it ain't gonna be that fun.
Folks, welcome back to Doug Collins' podcast.
This is going to be a fun one today.
For those of us who deal in politics, Phil Bandjok is from Push Digital.
Big, huge company.
Big footprint.
Great folks.
If you're out there, and I know I've got a lot of candidates who listen to this show and a lot of people in politics, if you're not happy, I'll say this with digital, you need folks like Push Digital on your side.
They're great folks.
Can take it to the next level because really campaigns are headed that way.
And Phil and I, as we were just talking here, Phil helped me on my campaign earlier when I was first going to Congress.
And Phil, let's just dive right into this because this is going to be fun.
I want this to be uncensored.
We'll ban the names to protect the innocent, so to speak.
Exactly.
But you mentioned that dirty word, negative mail or negative advertising.
All right, I'm going to get it all out for you, everybody here.
The reason that contrast pieces, negative pieces, negative ads work, or you keep saying them, is because they work.
I mean, Phil, tell us, I mean, you do it every day.
Happy fluffy pieces find negative moves numbers, correct?
That's right.
It's important to tell a candidate's story.
It's important to get across what they believe in.
But no candidate lives in a vacuum.
You run against somebody else.
And so you've got to compare and contrast.
You've got to create a scenario where you're showing off the differences between your candidate and the opposing candidate.
And often, especially in primaries, when candidates basically agree on the whole slate of issues, a lot of it comes down to personality.
A lot of it comes down to pointing out missteps in previous track records on votes and things.
And so really making sure that You've got that contrast out there for voters to make a decision is important, especially in the final days of the campaign.
You're trying to put your finger on the needle and get voters in your corner.
And often that just means contrasting with your opponent.
I don't ever view it as negative.
I would never put out something that was Untrue or, you know, a personal attack.
But if somebody's made a statement on an issue or they've taken a vote on an issue, that's part of their track record and voters need to know about it.
Fair game.
All right, so let's just start off here.
We're going to do this because, you know, me being in Congress for eight years, also being in the state legislature for six years, I was a House Republican vice chair, which meant that I was involved in campaigns all over the country.
Still am today.
I still get calls all the time.
So what I'd like to do here for a little bit, and we'll just mix in stories as we go.
I always love, Phil, sitting down, and especially when I was in Congress talking to new candidates, or now as they call me to talk, and I always hear this.
Well, I'm well known, and a lot of people like me, and I'm gonna run a, I'm a different type of candidate.
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna run a grassroots campaign.
I also say, well, this person's never going to get elected, too.
Yeah.
Let's disperse this fear.
I want this to become maybe a podcast for all of the wannabe consultants, wannabe folks out there.
Let's just get some of these myths out of the way now.
So, is there really such a thing as a new candidate?
No.
I mean...
I hear that every day.
Every single day.
Every candidate running for office thinks they're different.
And there are nuances from candidate to candidate.
And I've met some very different candidates across my time.
I've met some special ones.
But that being said, they've got to recognize that these races are formulaic.
There is a science behind it.
There is a way to, at the get-go, kind of make a determination of what is a viable candidate and what is not a viable candidate.
And as much as you think you're going to run a different campaign or you're going to run a different style campaign, there are tried and true methods by which voters are persuaded to vote for a candidate.
And not paying attention to those methods or not driving home those methods doesn't make you a better candidate.
It actually makes you often a losing candidate.
Now, there are exceptions.
You know, Donald Trump was a very different candidate.
And he ran a very, very different style of race.
But the fundamentals of his campaign were the tried and true ones, which is, number one, name ID is the number one indicator of vote choice.
If people know your name, if they're able to identify your name on a ballot, well, they're more likely to vote for you.
Donald Trump was on primetime television for 10 years with the number one TV show all across the country.
And he'd been a famous person far longer than that.
And so he had almost universal name ID. He had the most important thing you need to win a race.
And that's still in my book.
Part of the fundamentals.
It doesn't shift who I am as a political consultant because, you know, he basically was able to skip a step.
If you can't skip a step, if you don't have a primetime television show for 10 years that's at number one, I would suggest you hire a political consultant to help you get recognized because you're not going to be able to get across the finish line without it.
Exactly.
Well, let's go back to name ID. And name ID, you know, is good and bad.
I mean, because you can get name ID from good and good-bad sources.
It depends on how you look at it.
But he did have that fundamental.
He did raise money.
He had a lot of his own, but he raised money.
We'll get to that one later.
That's the one that everybody hates, okay?
And because I got to raise money.
Well, yeah, you got to raise money.
You're not special, okay?
And unless you can write your...
And we see this.
I tell you the other one that I hear a lot and...
I mean, if you have examples of this, feel free to share.
I mean, you not only see that I'm going to be a different candidate and I don't have to do this, is I just want to talk about, and this goes back to that contrast kind of issue here.
I just want to talk about what I'm going to do for the people.
Yeah.
And that's a sweet thought.
I get it.
But also, you have the candidate who comes in there and says, I hate this other person, I'm gonna tear them down.
And they sort of start with the negative without ever establishing themselves.
So a firm like Push Digital, dealing with digital, you're dealing with clients, one of that formulaic, your hope is that you can build your guys or gals up so that when you have to go negative, To make that contrast, you've got a built-in base.
It's very hard to do it the opposite way around, isn't it?
That's right.
I mean, you go into a race hoping you don't have to do negative advertising.
If you do everything better than your opponent, Likely, you don't need to.
Nobody wants to punch down at somebody who's losing.
So negative advertising isn't a foregone conclusion if you really tackle the fundamentals and run a great race.
I was always told growing up, I had a mentor that said there are seven boxes in a campaign.
You've got message, organization, research, scheduling, media, data, Did I say organization?
Well, there are seven of them.
And those boxes, if you do them better than your opponent every single day, you're going to win.
Oh, and finance is another one.
It's the last one.
Even I forget that.
Yeah, that one in both candidates like to forget.
Yeah, those are the boxes where if every day you're doing them better than your opponent, it's very hard to lose.
And you're going to be better at them at some than the others, but the goal is to really ratchet those procedures and those machinations of the campaign in a way where you're able to not have to do negative advertising.
In order to really lay down the type of persuasion you need to win, You've got to start, you know, probably 10 months before Election Day at the very least.
And you've got to start it off before a mail piece ever flies, before a TV ad ever runs.
It really does start with a digital campaign.
The digital campaign is a legitimizing factor in whether voters take a candidate seriously or not.
Does it look like they have a professional website?
Does it look like they're on social media and they're using it correctly?
Those are the things where at least on the activist side early in the campaign that really do legitimize a candidate and their candidacy And you just can't, you can't take it for granted.
Really, it's nice to think you're going to just talk about the issues and the things you're going to do for the people.
I would always ask, how do you know what the people want?
You know, a congressional district is made up of 700,000 individuals or, you know, roughly.
That's a lot of people.
Unless you've got some special magic power to know exactly what all those people or the aggregate of those people are going to Feel like are the most important issues.
You're probably misjudging what you think are the most important issues.
Oftentimes, even as a professional, I'll look at a poll and I'll go, wow, I didn't really think that that particular issue was the most important issue in this congressional seat.
But it does vary from place to place.
And so I would suggest to a candidate who thinks they have all the The knowledge of their district or their community to really sit down with a professional, do some polling, do some research.
Research is that box that's super important.
Knowing exactly, you know, people might be really passionate about red light cameras in your district.
Very passionate, but it doesn't rank in their top 10 issues that they really care about.
So it might be something that they really care about, but it doesn't rank beyond like building a wall or Fixing inflation.
And so you've got to even rank issues as you go through your campaign.
And that's something that even I don't do.
There are scientists.
There are pollsters.
There are people who specialize in analytics that can help you navigate those waters in a way that you're just not going to be able to.
That is, and I think that's so important is this idea of knowing, you know, you have to have a reason to run.
I speak to it from the candidate perspective.
You've got to have a reason to run because if you don't have that burning gut, if you don't have that real desire to do it, The campaign will beat you down, okay?
And I've run big campaigns, I've run tough campaigns, I've run easy campaigns, far before the easy ones, but I've been in brutal campaigns, okay?
I get it.
And there are days you get up, you say, I don't want to do this.
And it goes back to the reason you're in it.
One of the things that I'm seeing here recently, and I'll speak at it from a 40,000 foot level, if you would, I'm seeing a rising class I'm not wanting to be offensive here, but I think there needs to be some reining in of, or at least discussions for candidates and consultants.
And you're a company that deals with consultants every day, and look, I've got a lot of them.
My consultant, Chip Blake, is one of the best in the world, and we're both out of politics right now.
We're just not, you know, we're taking a break.
Both of us are for this cycle.
But...
What I'm seeing, and I can't tell you, and Phil, have you seen this as well?
And maybe this is the warning for candidates out there, and maybe also a shot across the bow to somebody hanging a consultant shingle.
I've talked to candidates who, they talk to a consultant, and the first thing the consultant always wants to know is how much money.
Well, that's a valid, because they want paid.
I get it.
But then, I've had several folks that I've talked to and I say, well, you've got this issue, this issue, and this issue.
What has your consultant said?
Well, they didn't really talk about that.
Well, did they tell you you needed to spend most of your time raising money?
No.
And why is it or how is it that can we get across that consultants need to learn this stuff too and it's not just about, hey, I'm gonna make five grand a month being the consultant for a race.
Man, this is weird.
It's weird for me to talk about because this will be my 18th year doing politics and as a professional, paid professional.
And back when I started, you know, in the early 2000s, I think it was 2002, 2004, I We've seen some of the ESPNization of politics.
This has become a big business.
To give you an idea of how big a business it's become, Barack Obama raised $120 million for his presidential race in 2008 or 2012. We had US Senate races that eclipsed that amount.
So you're talking about $100 million Senate races.
This is a $15 billion industry every single year.
That has a tendency to attract a lot of grifters.
That kind of money will attract some people who maybe don't have the skill or the acumen or the experience to pull off To pull off a cogent strategy for winning, there's a lot of gurus out there.
You mentioned Chip Lake.
Chip Lake probably is the best consultant in all of Georgia.
He's somebody who's built a reputation, has an experience that makes him a valid political consultant.
One thing I would say to new candidates is, find a general consultant who's done this before.
It doesn't have to be in your district.
Congressional district is going to It's going to vary, but the fundamentals kind of remain the same.
And so find somebody that's done it before, that has a track record, can tell you their wins and losses, can tell you why they lost a race.
You're not going to win every race, but it's really important to know why you lost, to be self-reflective about those shortcomings.
Because if they haven't done it before, they're likely not going to be able to pull it off for you.
You know, in your particular race.
I would also go ahead and I would ask people who are currently elected who their consultants are.
Find three or four good general consultants.
I'm not a general consultant.
I do media.
I do a little bit of TV and mostly digital.
And I always say, I really rarely work with a candidate without a general consultant.
It's kind of like building a house without a general contractor.
They're going to know where the You know, who the plumbers are and who the roofers are.
They're going to help build a team of specialists that are able to help you navigate the waters of the race that you just aren't going to be able to do on your own.
So don't go hire a digital firm.
Hire a general consultant who then hires the digital firm.
I always say, I'm just part of a healthy breakfast.
You've got to have all the other pieces in place to really make it work.
I don't want to be You know, hard here or anything else, because I think we, you know, look, politics, the way our founders envisage it is people stepping forward with their ideas.
And I make a habit, I will tell people the truth about campaigns.
I've done it all over the country, but I'll never at the end of the day, just, unless maybe it's a family member or somebody that I'm really close to, don't run, okay?
I'm just not going to do that.
Because I think at the end of the day, everybody has to find their own way.
And I may be missing something.
I have to know my own fallibility to say, hey, I missed it.
You should have won.
But I let them do it.
But I didn't tell them, like I said, you've got to find some people to help you.
You can't do this on your own.
Are you sensing, Phil, even in the digital space and in the consultant space and in the candidate space, that they think And you made an interesting comment early on.
You said there's a science to it.
It's formulaic, but the formula is almost like NASA. There were formulas for gravity and reentry, but you had to have those geometry and math and trigonometry that could tweak the numbers at the right moment.
That's what a general consultant does.
That's what a good general consultant does.
He may be silent for four months and all of a sudden he said, oh, wait, we're missing it here.
And that's the value of the entire campaign.
That's right.
It's actually more like Apollo 13. That's what it is.
You've only got the resources you have on your little spaceship.
And some of it is just gravity.
Some of it's out of your control.
So how do you take the things you have, the things you have on hand, To create a victory.
And that's what a good general consultant, they've seen a lot.
A lot of this stuff is repeatable from race to race.
But they know that when you hit a crisis, they know the correct tactics to take because they may have seen it before either in a race they've done or in another race.
Yep.
Well, one of the things is they also understand this.
And if you're out there trying to think about a race and if, you know, this becomes hopefully a podcast of, you know, hey, go listen to Doug and Phil talk about campaigns because, you know, this is what we need to do.
I see so many that look at it and going back to a conversation that I've had with Chip before and others, and he really drove this point home to me.
There's a couple other things, but the two main things in a campaign, and if you're out there right now thinking about a campaign in the future, you're going to have things you can control and things you can't control.
And how many times, Phil, have you seen a candidate deal with things that they can't control and it becomes obsessive to them at the expense of what they can control?
It's almost universal.
It's almost universal to obsess over the things you can't control.
And it's detrimental to a campaign.
I would say that, you know, there are things that your opponent is going to do that you can't help.
You can't help the way their consultants run their race.
You have to run your race.
There's an opportunity cost to thinking about the things you can't control.
When you're focused on those things, there's a laundry list of items you're not doing.
You're not making your finance calls.
You're not thinking through your stump speech.
I always tell candidates, There are things on a campaign that only a candidate can do.
Exactly.
Thank you.
That your staff is not going to be able to do for you.
This one is call major donors.
Two is be able to get up and give a good speech.
So when I'm like general consulting a race or when I'm, you know, interfacing with a candidate, I always tell them to be the best candidate they can be.
Look at their box and allow their staff and allow their consultants to do the things that they know how to do best.
And to not worry about your opponent.
They're going to run their race.
You've got to run yours.
I put this to candidates all the time because I had to learn it myself.
And I learned it.
Again, some of this you learn.
And if you're fortunate enough to have a good team, you run a good race, you get elected.
Then you have another chance to do it again.
You keep learning.
And for me, I tell them this.
I said, hire good people, listen to them, or fire them.
Do not!
And I tell them this all the time.
I've had members of Congress come to me, and they say, my consultant's telling me this, and I don't know what to do.
I said, well...
Do you, do you, is it just empirically that you don't know that, that you, is it morally something you won't do?
And I said, those are times when you just have, I said, they said, well, it just seems too harsh.
I said, well, do you trust this person?
Yeah.
I said, then shut up and do what they say.
Yeah.
Well, I don't know if I want to.
I said, well, then fire them.
Exactly.
The worst thing that can happen is a candidate fight with his staff.
Oh, it's the worst.
But I'm going to say, you don't need a staff that is a yes person to the candidate either.
In fact, that's probably almost as worse as you look at if there's such a thing.
But, oh yeah, Congressman, that's the best idea I've heard in three days.
And then go into the other room and say, oh my God, he is an idiot.
You've got to tell them to their face.
I mean, the person needs to hear it.
One of the things that kills me, though, is that consultants coming in and giving a false expectation.
To me, they're almost...
How many times...
And again, we don't name names on this show.
This is the Doug Collins podcast.
We're fine.
But I've actually seen cases where, honestly, I feel like the candidates should sue for fraud.
Yeah.
Oh, I agree.
You know, one thing I tell...
We've got a staff of 50 folks here at Push Digital.
One of the things I always say is...
We want to under-promise and over-deliver.
We're talking about small things like how many impressions you're going to get on a Facebook campaign or whatever it is.
You always want to under-promise.
It goes back to the amount of money that's involved and the grifting that goes on.
There are a lot of people making crazy expectations.
And crazy statements about what they can and can't do.
The reality is, I love saying, I don't know, but I will find out.
Because it gives me time to figure out the facts, get the numbers straight, and deliver an honest estimation of what I'm able to accomplish.
And the reality is, until you have a poll, You can't tell a candidate, hey, you're going to squash this guy.
You're going to beat this guy.
You have no idea about the landscape.
Nobody does.
Not any consultant.
Nobody is omniscient.
So we have to figure out, we have to use the science at hand.
To deliver really, really good expectations.
And you can't do it without a poll.
You can't do it unless you have experience.
And I think that sort of...
I get frustrated by that with consultants too.
And I'm super cautious myself just to kind of sit back, say I don't know, and come back with an answer that makes sense and that I can deliver on.
And you're so right.
The question that comes up to my mind is...
Is it still at this 20 years in, and I've been, look, my campaign experience goes back to the 80s when I'm, I mean, I'm here in North Georgia hitting wood stakes into the hard August clay and stapling a sign to it.
Yeah, I'm old.
Yeah.
I remember still when Moses brought down the tablets, okay?
I get it.
But, you know, and it was always still about, you know, getting out, getting your message, and doing those.
I always like to say, and we'll get to this, because I want to get your take on this, and my son Cameron, in full disclosure, my son Cameron works for Push Digital, and he's enjoying it.
He's having fun.
Yes.
He's an awesome guy.
You know a tree by its fruit, and you must be a great guy.
Doug, because Cameron is one of our rock stars.
He just has a lot of instinctual talent in the area of politics, and I'm really, really proud of the guy.
I appreciate that.
He's like the carpenter's kid who grew up in the carpenter's shop.
I mean, literally, that's all he's known.
He's been doing it his whole life.
There you go.
And thank God for his mother.
But, you know, we come back into this, you know, you do the basics and your understanding, and it's a skill-building kind of issue in campaigns.
You made a comment earlier I want to go back to because I think it's overlooked.
We go back to this what you can control and what you can't control.
I'm seeing this across the country.
I was in a Midwestern state.
I was seeing some others.
And I'm seeing it where there's this move to keep candidates...
Isolated.
The classic example is the Joe Biden in the basement, okay?
Joe Biden in the basement could do it because there's a whole different atmosphere in the country at that time.
But I'm seeing more and more in, you know, state House races, state Senate races, U.S. Congress, Senate races, and others where you sort of get this, they believe because of the digital age, and companies like yours do such a great job with this, that they can protect weak candidates.
Does that bother you as much as it bothers me?
No.
Listen, there are reasonable circumstances to keep a candidate from doing public appearances or to keep them away from a press.
If there is a reporter who is antagonistic, well, just don't sit him in front of that reporter.
I understand that.
But for the most part, You know, a candidate's record or the things a candidate has said, or whatever you think you've done in the dark is going to come to light.
And so there's no protecting a candidate.
Things are going to come out.
You might as well be out in public, be able to speak to it, be able to interact with voters.
In a way that's authentic.
Because, you know, there's going to be 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 gross media points on TV exposing your record.
You want to be out there talking to people about your record anyway.
So I think it's a failed strategy.
But there are...
I want to...
The caveat here is that there are...
There are legitimate reasons to keep a candidate protected.
And I do think that one of those reasons is if you've got all the name ID you have, You need.
If you have universal name ID, well then, you know, it is kind of a waste of time to be, you know, riding around a district or riding around a state and not making phone calls for money.
If everybody, you know, if you get out there and you pound the pavement, well, you better be getting something for it.
And that something is usually name ID. But if you got it, well, then you can move on to other things.
And I think, you know, One of the crazy things here is that we've gotten to a place, at least at the national level, where you don't need to answer anything.
And that is scary.
You want to see a president get up on a podium and answer questions.
That's really where people start to disconnect from the candidate.
And I think it's important that candidates be authentic.
There's really nothing to fear.
If you've done nothing wrong and you have a great record and you're proud of your achievements, being able to speak to them is an important thing.
Where I also see candidates being insulated is that there are more and more candidates without a guiding philosophy.
And so questions scare them.
If you have a guiding philosophy, then any question that comes, you can fit within the framework or the matrix of that philosophy.
But if you don't have one, every question is a scary question.
I'm going to ask a question.
It's open-ended in the sense that I'm curious your thought.
Politics is still one of those places in the world that everybody believes they can do it.
Okay?
Everybody's got an opinion.
They talk about it at the dinner table.
They talk about the Waffle House.
They talk about it.
Oh, you know how you solved the national debt?
Quit spending.
Well, wow, you're brilliant.
We'll figure that one out tomorrow.
But even campaigns.
It's this idea that it's easy.
There's an easy button out there that anybody can do it.
And not to defend incumbents or not to defend newcomers because we've all been there no matter where you're at in the process.
This goes back to that conversation we're having about, you know, A good general consultant, one of the best things that they could ever do is tell a candidate, I'm not gonna take your race.
And it helps him and it helps her and it helps the candidate as well.
And then if the candidate comes back and says, why?
And they say, well, you're not ready.
You know, or do this.
And if you do this, then you'll grow.
That's where I'm seeing the most concern here.
How much of that though, and I'm gonna get into a little deeper subject on this side.
Because of the 24-hour news cycle, because of digital is so replete in everything that we see, I used to just blame Democrats with being identity politics.
I can't anymore.
And yes, I'm a Republican.
I'll fight anybody over my conservative record, okay?
I'm not going to.
But I'm hearing even Republicans start saying if we had...
I've been up against it.
I've seen it.
If we just have this and list out the...
You fill in the blank.
Female, male, white, black, military, non-military.
As someone in the business, does it...
Does that strike you good, bad?
Where do you see it?
It's a reality.
You know, one of the issues that we're facing right now is the...
The media, it's diffuse.
You used to be able to run a single ad on ABC, NBC, and CBS at the 6 o'clock news hour, and then everybody saw your candidate's message.
Well, we've got thousands of different choices.
We're scrolling through social media.
We've got thousands of cable channels.
We've got tons of streaming options.
And so everyone's getting their information from different places.
And there is a foundational tool, that measurement that we use in politics called saliency.
And saliency measures how well somebody understands an issue.
For instance, abortion is an issue of high saliency.
It's very easy to understand.
And therefore, people have a black and white sort of view of the issue of abortion.
Millage rates, or inflation, let's just call it inflation.
Inflation is actually a very low saliency item.
And so it's harder to understand.
It's harder to explain.
And so we have a tendency, because of the diffusion of media, because it's hard to gain people's attention, To focus on issues of high saliency because they move the needle faster.
It's kind of like a candy bar.
Candy bar is high calorie, gets you all the things you want, but it's not necessarily what's the most nutritious.
And so we have a tendency in campaigns In our media, as voters, as consultants, all of us are addicted to these high saliency issues, and they tend to be ones of identity politics.
They tend to be issues that are socially divisive, and it's because they work, because they're easy.
And I think that it's partly human nature, and it's also partly just the media environment we're in.
Again, back to philosophy, that's why the best candidates are the guys like Ronald Reagan.
They had a real core to them.
They had a real philosophy.
And they also had a little bit of media training.
Where they were able to take really complex issues and simplify them for the masses.
And that's what makes a great candidate.
For a long time, I wanted to be a preacher.
I thought I was going to seminary.
It was a big deal in my life.
My grandfather was in the ministry.
And what I notice is that folks who can preach typically are great politicians because they're able to distill and get people emotionally invested in issues that they may not have otherwise.
And what I try to do with candidates is If they're unable to grasp the issues themselves, if they're unable to, you know, have a sort of, you know, the technical wonky attitude towards an issue, is to speak to people's heart.
You know, try to find a way to take a very, very complex issue and change people's heart or get them connected with a story about that issue.
And that really, really helps.
Otherwise, you're just stuck, you know, Checking off the bullet points because it's easy.
We've seen that too many times.
One of my biggest, and if you've ever heard me speak, and a lot of the podcast listeners have, if you've ever heard me speak especially to Republican groups, and I know y'all deal with conservatives and you deal with Republicans, I've spoke all over the country and I go in, I remember one of the events I went into in Minnesota and we were, look, I give the same message wherever I go.
I mean, and that is, here is the problem.
Conservatives are so boring.
We tend, and I'm not talking about the ones who have become very adept at social media, okay?
That's not boring.
That's a whole different issue.
But when we start talking about issues, how many times have you seen the same issue?
Let's just say, you know, I'll give an interesting example.
I've just been doing some stuff that's more on gun control.
And you have an incident take place.
Many times the liberal interpretation or the democratic interpretation takes the issue, the tragedy, associates it to the people, And the emotional side, and then says, well, here's our result.
And I've seen so many times on the right side, you know, go to the strictly analytical, well, that didn't happen.
And you have this disconnect happening.
I see it with taxes.
Republicans can get enamored with PowerPoints and percentages.
I can't tell you, Phil, how many times I've sat with candidates across the country, listened to their stunt speech, and I'm looking for a fork to put in my leg.
I mean, I wouldn't vote for it.
They're killing me.
How can we get...
Because I believe conservatives have the best message.
In fact, I know we do.
We've got the best message.
But how could we get better And is it, some of this is digital that keeps it from where you have that core composition, you say, look, I'm gonna take a message that applies to people.
The policy and the people have to meet and I have to make that emotional connection or they're not gonna hear it that gets us that voter that is becoming new that you know well about that are not quote Democrats, they're not quote Republicans, but they're this amorphous wannabe, but yet they have tendencies.
How are we gonna commit Well, that's a great question.
You and I, we live politics in many ways.
And we can get stuck in our own bubble.
But for the most part, most voters They actually don't live politics and they're okay with disagreeing with you on an issue.
And it's as long as they like you.
And so really it's important to speak to the heart and it's important to create parables.
If you're going to show a war, show one man's war, create a story around the issue.
Not only does it simplify and increase the saliency of that issue, but it also allows people to know that you're human.
You know, you're not just a bunch of charts and graphs.
These issues have practical application to real people's lives.
And even when people disagree with you on that issue, if you're able to speak to their heart through a story or through, you know, An anecdote that really connects to their heart.
They go, well, you know, at least he's in the right place.
You know, at least I understand what he's trying to do.
You know, we may have different views on how to get the job done, but he really does care about the issue a lot.
And I care about it, too.
And that's something that's the best politicians they get.
You've got to really connect these issues to stories.
You've got to connect them in a way that people can personally connect with.
At least for me, my favorite politicians, my favorites are the ones that are storytellers.
They kind of get me choked up.
Like them or hate them.
Barack Obama was really, really good about being impassioned about the things he cared about.
And it's infectious.
And that sort of thing, you know, not everybody can be Donald Trump.
Donald Trump has a completely different style than anybody else.
And it works for him.
He doesn't have to really be clued in on the specifics of an issue.
He just shoots from the gut.
And he can do that because he's Donald Trump.
If you're not Donald Trump, if you're not Barack Obama, you've got to find a way to connect those issues and really speak to people's hearts.
And that's, if you win their hearts, you've won their vote almost every single time.
Exactly.
And I think that's it.
It really bothers me today.
And as someone who knows the former President, you know, President Trump very well and talks, it bothers me to see the wannabes.
Yeah, it's gross.
It's gross.
The wannabes out there, it's like, you're not...
Well, it's like Reagan wannabes in some ways.
Be yourself.
The first rule of politics is authenticity.
And people see through authenticity.
And I don't care how much money you have, you can't buy authenticity.
You can't do it.
I mean, it is amazing.
Let's get back to your world.
I'm going to switch back a little bit now.
I'm talking about campaigns and some basics here with digital side.
And again, we're going to the myths around campaigns.
You want a candidate who is a candidate, meaning that they're raising money, talking to voters.
I've seen and I've heard from consultants and I've heard from firms like yours, one of the worst things that can happen for a candidate is if they become micro-obsessed with the things that are not their part.
What the other candidate is putting on social media or the reactions to their social media?
And can we do this?
Do you have any funny stories without naming names of where this is an obsession of some of the ones that just highlight, why are you even looking?
I mean, why did they give the candidate a social media account to start with?
I mean, it's outrageous.
Typically, the smaller the race, The more contentious the race is and the more obsessed the candidate is with what's taking place on social media.
And, you know, I know that, you know, we have great account executives.
They've got great bedside banner with candidates.
And oftentimes we have to remind a candidate that, you know, there's more going on Than what you see on Facebook.
There is a whole campaign out there.
It is not just on Facebook.
Like I said, we are part of a healthy breakfast.
And to become overly obsessed with the content on your Facebook page or what's happening on Twitter is really, it's irrational.
And I'll give you an example.
The numbers on Twitter work for Donald Trump because he's got millions of followers all across the country.
But if you're running in a state house race, the amount of actual voters that will exist within your district lines that are on Twitter are nil.
It's so small.
And so you're not really influencing the amount of people you need on a Twitter page to really Even worry about what's on your Twitter feed or what is going on with your opponent on Twitter.
You know, it's similar on Facebook.
This is a little secret that people really don't know that's super important.
Only 5-7% of your Facebook followers are actually seeing your content on any given day.
And that's because Facebook wants to be paid for advertising.
And so in order to reach 100% of your following, Facebook wants a pound of flesh.
They want a piece of your campaign budget.
And so really to worry about whatever trolls are on your Facebook page or what somebody is saying is kind of ridiculous.
You know, I see the back and forth with candidates, especially Again, I don't want to name names, but the back and forth where a candidate becomes obsessed with what another candidate says and they reply back to them, to me, and I'm in digital.
This is my whole business.
It's my whole livelihood.
I think it's a completely childish thing to do, and it's not effective, and you're not really reaching voters.
And I've actually...
And I've told the staff here that if we see that kind of thing happening, I need to have a conversation with the candidate because it reflects poorly on them or reflects poorly on us.
And it's not something you want to engage in.
You are not Donald Trump.
There's more to your campaign than what happens online.
If it needs to happen online, we got it and we're going to take care of it and we're going to execute like professionals.
Don't take your matters into your own hands and go, And bum rush your opponent on Twitter.
It's not worth it.
You know, one thing I see in my congressional district, you know, it was really interesting, and it says, so interesting that you should talk about the fact of your, at least Facebook, you can, you know, Limit your scope and size a little bit better, especially if you are an ad target and stuff like that.
Twitter, we always considered this.
Twitter was our national message.
Facebook was going to talk to our voters.
And that was sort of what we looked at.
That's exactly right.
You had very smart consultants.
That's exactly right.
That's what we did.
And if I wanted to, and I could do it because I've got a decent amount of Twitter followers.
If I wanted to yank the liberal side, I can do it in a heartbeat.
I know how to do that.
But at the end of the day, you look at it from a campaign, most of the ones who either liked, followed, or didn't have no idea that they can vote.
I love those, you know, followers that, you know, they say, I'm not going to vote for you.
Well, good, you live in Oregon.
I didn't think you were going to vote for me to start with.
Unless you want to commit to voter fraud, let's go ahead right now.
But it's out there.
And, you know, it's amazing to me that there's a missing element that I think is still there.
And you used to, I know you were a part of this because you've done a lot of campaigns, but you also was with other organizations.
You know what I see missing is you talk about a part of a healthy breakfast.
You know what still moves voters in a lot, and you know this, but I'm telling people, is in a lot of congressional districts, and then even more smaller campaigns, is mail.
The old-fashioned, put it in their mailbox.
And how many times have I heard lately, you know, because you've got great digital companies, you're a great digital company, but you partner, I know you partner, with mail firms.
Yes.
And mail is super important.
It's one of the most important methods to getting out your vote.
And anybody saying that mail is dead, because there is less junk mail in your mailbox, when you get a political mail piece, you actually pay more attention to it now than you ever have.
And I would say, you know, mail allows people to physically and tangibly Know that there is a race that they need to pay attention to.
You can see something on Facebook and go, hey, maybe that's not my district.
Maybe I care about this candidate.
Maybe I don't.
If they get a mail piece and they see their name on it and it's for them, they know they are voting in this race and they need to pay attention.
And so I'm a big proponent of mail.
You know, what's great is the different layers of political media.
Broadcast TV, you're talking to everyone.
When you go on broadcast, the whole district, the whole state, however you buy it, they're all seeing your stuff.
When you go on cable, you get a little bit more ability to target, right?
If you go on Fox News, you know you're talking to conservatives.
On digital, on mail, you're talking to a household.
The man of the house or the woman of the house or the kids, they may all pick up that mail and they may all see it.
So you want to make sure everyone in that household is good to see that piece of mail.
On digital, we remove the household and we go straight to the individual.
So you may be sitting in a house with your wife and your teenage children, your voting age children, and all three of you may see different advertisements for the same candidate because we know in your data, The data you give up every single day,
that, you know, how you voted, your voting history, we know data points about your consumer history, we know, you know, Behavioral points about how you're reacting, how you react to certain issues.
And so it gives us a lot more targeting options.
But mail is super, super important.
And even phones.
Text messaging has become a technology that you can't do without on a campaign.
It gets super annoying and I know voters get super turned off by it.
But if you want to get a click, if you want to get people's attention really quickly, Text messaging is a great medium by which to deliver a political message.
It is.
It is.
As we're talking about methods of getting out, I would probably, and we invoked his name, so I have to probably invoke this as Chip Lake and other consultants I've talked about.
You know, what is it that the one thing that campaigns, and look, I've been guilty of it, I've followed, the one thing that a campaign thinks that they have to have that consultants absolutely hate?
Oh, it's yard signs!
Yard signs!
Phil!
Yeah, brother!
Well, because as a political consultant, we're big in the measurement.
So we know when you go on TV with a thousand gross media points on broadcast, you're burning in a message.
I know that I deliver 10 impressions via pre-roll that I've burned in a message, that it takes X number of mail pieces to move a message.
There is no way to quantify what a yard sign does.
You can't measure it.
And so oftentimes you'll see, and no candidates at varied levels have trouble believing this, that there have been plenty of instances where someone had no yard signs and won a race.
And that's because yard signs don't matter.
I can tell you, from my perspective, there have been plenty of times when I was a campaign manager where I bought a thousand yard signs and I placed them all around the candidate's house so that they thought all across the district there were yard signs because it really didn't matter.
I'll tell you this.
If you're running for a local race, you don't have many options.
You've maybe got a couple thousand dollars for mail pieces, and so yard signs are a default way of getting your name out.
So I'm not going to poo-poo it totally, but the more you go up that ballot, the less Yard signs matter.
And if you're an activist and you're listening to Doug Collins in Georgia right now, you know, stop asking these campaigns for yard signs.
It's not doing you any good.
It's not doing them any good.
They're wasting their money to get you as many yard signs as you need.
But this is the other problem with yard signs.
You never have enough.
It's a bottomless pit.
You got me very animated about yard signs.
Yard signs...
These conversations, you know, we just went ahead.
And, you know, you have to...
Because as a candidate, you call between this, well, Doug, you don't have any yard signs.
And look, I get it.
I've been there on both sides.
You know, as a candidate, you like to see your name.
You like to see...
But I'm also telling an old story.
And it goes back to this.
As an old candidate one time, an elected official said about yard signs.
He said...
I don't really care if they work or not.
He said, but I remember where the other person's sign was.
That's right.
That's right.
So, it sort of sets it out, but I had to get that in there if we didn't.
Switching gears real quick, as we sort of wrap some of this up, one of the best things, and I believe you enjoy this as well, also people get their ideas about campaigns, of course, and running politics through TV movies and things like that.
I tell people all the time, they sort of look at me funny, but it also tells me the depth of their political acumen, so to speak.
I tell them if you ever want to watch a movie that has held its value on what a political campaign's basic core looks like, it's The Candidate with Robert Radford from 72. It's a great movie.
I would also say Veep is more accurate Sometimes Veep gets so cringy for me because I'm like, oh, I kind of know that person.
I feel like I know that individual.
But yeah, you know, one of the things, the ESPNization of politics, it's sad, it's a reality.
But everybody's got opinions and everybody's got kind of a view of what campaigns are like or what politics is like based on cable news and the 24-hour news pundits that you see.
I would say, if you're looking at running for office, approach it like you have a medical condition.
You want to find professionals who have done this before, You're not going to have your next-door neighbor's kid do open-heart surgery on you.
You want to find somebody that views this as their career, views it as their craft, and is able to kind of hold your hand through the process.
Because being a candidate and running a campaign is not easy.
You mentioned the why are you running question.
I can tell right away with a candidate If they're going to be a good candidate from that question.
Because if I hear, you know, I've always wanted to be in Congress.
It's been my lifelong dream.
I can tell you that candidate is going to be a bear because they've got expectations about what running for office is or what being in Congress is that is super false.
And when I hear somebody say, you know, we've got big problems in this country and I feel like I have to step up or, you know, the United States has been very good to me.
I've lived the American dream and now I see it slipping away.
Those are answers that that get me get me going because You've got to have a fortitude inside yourself to make it through the bad days on a campaign.
And you've got to have a team that you like working.
You've got to like these people.
Because I'm sure there were days where you spoke more with Chip Blake or Scott Paradise than you did your own spouse.
And so if you don't like these people, then you're not going to have a good time.
But if you like them, the days that are bad, and they're going to be bad days on a campaign, They're a little bit better.
I always tell people, just take your time, find somebody that you jive with, that you can have a great conversation back and forth, has a good demeanor about them, and also Doesn't feel like this is a live or die thing.
Like there's things that are bigger than politics.
And so you have to maintain some of your morality and you have to maintain some of your pride and how you live because you can go down dark paths in this business.
And I hate it when candidates are so desperate to win that they're willing to do anything.
There's life beyond the campaign.
There is.
Well, also, I think you need...
And let's hit this.
Phil, I'm glad you brought this up.
Okay?
I was blessed to have...
Again, there's differences.
When I was in the state house, I really didn't have campaign.
Okay?
I didn't have to.
I was in an area in which I was known.
Nobody really run against me.
I didn't know what campaign it was until 2011, 2012. One of the more brutal campaigns that I was a part of.
In Georgia history.
Yeah.
It was historic.
We did a lot.
That runoff was crazy.
But we won.
And I look back on it, and that was one of those times that I have to also go back to say, you either trust your campaign folks or you fire them.
You can't second guess it.
You have to have input because it is your name on the campaign.
You have input, but at the end of the day, it's either I do it or I don't do it, don't fight about it.
But Congress is the NFL. It is.
That, the Senate, because of the nationalization, everything has happened.
But also when you're looking, and I'm hoping candidates will hear this, and you may be in the middle of a campaign right now and you're saying, oh my God, I know exactly what they're talking about.
How did I get into this and how do I get out of it?
One of the things that I always appreciated about, you know, my campaigns, one, I was able to keep my core groupings together my entire time.
I had my general consultant, was always Chip.
I had, you know, I did, I had our digital, I had our, for the most part, we had one change, which you probably know about, we didn't have for my Senate race, but the, but for the most part we had, you know, I had a guy who did my TV, I had Chip, I had, you know, the main groupings were always their polling, all that was there.
Because I trusted them.
And they trusted me and we worked well together.
But also one of the things is, and I'm saying this to the candidates who are listening to this, find good people, pay them, but have the one who's in charge of your books.
And it needs to be the general consultant.
The general consultant needs to know what's being paid, what's not being paid, and needs to treat that money like it's their own, not borrowed.
How many times have you seen, Phil, a general consultant spend money and spend a candidate into debt?
Oh, it's really a sad thing, you know.
That's why having somebody you trust is super important.
I would also say, you know, chain of command on a campaign is an important thing.
I always tell people, you know, candidates will come to me, staff will come to me, and they'll ask for things.
And I'll say, well, hey, I'm just the digital guy.
We need to loop the general consultant in on this.
And it's because budgeting is 90% of a campaign.
90% of a campaign's win or loss happens on a spreadsheet.
Because how you spend money determines how many voters you can reach, how often you can reach them, And often determines whether you're going to win or not.
And I think that I've seen candidates go into debt.
If you're running for Senate, especially if you're an incumbent, you can probably afford to go into a little debt.
But most people can't do that.
And so it's super important to watch the books and make sure that that balance sheet is zero at the end.
You don't want to leave anything in the campaign account because that's malpractice, but you don't want to be over it.
I would also say, if I was just giving advice to candidates as it relates to money, some of your donors are going to see how you spent that money.
Win or lose, if you want to run again, You've got to be able to look those people in the eye and make sure that you were a good steward of the donation they gave you.
And I've seen several candidates squander that opportunity because often people They want to be on your team.
They're investing in you for the long haul.
And I've seen candidates waste money on dumb things, on dumb ideas, on bad ads, on stupid consultants.
And it's a reflection of you and the relationships you have with your donors.
And I think that's super important.
It is.
And I think this is, again, I think the most, for people taken away from this podcast today, it's number one, that the, you know, campaigns is no longer just putting a bunch of yard signs in the back of the truck and going to the grocery store and shaking the hands of everybody.
See, I told somebody, and this just shocked them one day, they said, well, I'm just going to go shake hands at this festival.
I said, well, that's great.
I said, do you realize that you're going to shake 1,000, 1,500 hands and probably 100 could vote for you?
Is that actually a good use of your time?
Or is it better to sit in a room with a fundraiser, spend three hours making phone calls, raising $10,000, to make that $10,000 be able to touch 20,000 voters?
I mean, to give you an idea, again, a thousand points burns in a message on broadcast on television.
In the Atlanta media market, it is...
For 400 points, which doesn't even burn in for you, is $500,000 a week.
You've got to think of a campaign as a multi-million dollar startup, even at the low level.
Say you're running for a county office, you're running for a local race in your hometown.
It's still a startup.
You've got to raise a bunch of money real quick and then spend a bunch of money even quicker.
And that takes somebody who's done it before, takes somebody who's knowledgeable, but it also takes effort on the candidate's part.
Because asking, you know, make a list.
Make a list of the 100, 200 people you know who can give you You know, the $250 or the $500, that's going to give you insight on whether running for office is even something you can do.
If you don't have that list, it's going to be very, very, very difficult.
And oftentimes, I mean, you've seen it where you just go, that's a great candidate.
They've got a great story to tell, but they're running their campaign horribly and they don't have a shot.
And some of the best candidates are the ones who just were bad campaigners.
And that's a sad, sad thing.
And it has nothing to do with their speaking style.
It has nothing to do with their passion about the issues.
It has everything to do with their management style or their ability to take some risks.
Because it's a lot of risk taking.
You're putting yourself out there.
It's really, really difficult.
Yeah, it really is.
It can be there.
Phil, this has been fun.
As this progression of this campaign season comes along, we'll probably do this again.
I would love to come on anytime you want.
To catch up with this.
But folks, if you're out there listening down to Doug Collins Podcast, we're going to promote this.
And I know Phil will send this around.
If you're a candidate, you're wanting to be a candidate, you're thinking about being a candidate, we've talked about some good stuff today.
You may not want to hear it.
And it may go against your entire grain because your uncle and three brothers and five sisters said, hey, you're the smartest person around.
Go out there.
You'll win.
You'll win your neighborhood.
Right.
But you probably won't lose the election at a certain point in time.
And this is something my last thought to the listeners out there today.
And I think Phil would agree with me on this.
You only have so many campaigns in you.
I see these professional candidates, and there's some that's gotten sad.
And some of them actually got elected and then decided to run for something else and then just decided to run for everything again.
And those are, frankly, it gets sad after a while.
You've got a half-life.
You can't do it forever.
It wears you down.
And also, people like a new shiny object.
So somebody better or younger is going to come along.
And so being that candidate is a sad thing.
Yeah, if you're out there looking to run for office, and some of you have already started in this one, and maybe you've gotten bad advice.
You know, before qualifying, it's never truly terrible.
You may think the world's looking at you, but it's okay not to qualify.
It's okay.
You know, save yourself for the next one, because you may be an excellent candidate just in the wrong race at the wrong time.
You live to fight another day.
Exactly.
So be out there.
Be encouraged.
Politics is worth fighting for.
In fact, I think it is something that is so downplayed in our country because politics is in everything, and our country needs people with good ideas.
The only way you can get there, though, is actually having a good idea on how to run a campaign.
Phil, thanks for being with us on the Doug Collins Podcast.
Thanks, Doug.
Thank you.
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