The Gen Z Gender Divide Is Real ft. Patrick Casey | Across The Pond
Patrick Casey joins Tate and Connor on today's episode of Across the Pond to break down the Gen Z gender divide and why the dating market is collapsing for Zoomers. In this episode, they discuss why Gen Z men and women are more politically and culturally divided than ever, exploring the biggest issues driving the split. The trio unpack why Gen Z men and women can't connect in dating, the impact of Catholicism vs. Evangelical Christianity on the dating market, the Manosphere and third world perspectives on dating, and the "trad" lifestyle. BUY CAST BREW COFFEE TO SUPPORT THE SHOW - https://castbrew.com/ Become A Member And Protect Our Work at http://www.timcast.com Host(s): Tate Brown @realTateBrown (everywhere) Connor Tomlinson @Con_Tomlinson (everywhere) Guest: Patrick Casey @restoringorderusa (X) My Second Channel - https://www.youtube.com/timcastnews Podcast Channel - https://www.youtube.com/TimcastIRL
We're back with another installation of a hit the mic already.
It's a bad start.
Of Across the Pond.
This is sort of this new experiment that me and Connor are toying around with to provide you guys with some hard-hitting commentary over the weekends.
We are joined here by a guest, Patrick Casey, the legend, the man, the myth, the legend.
Everyone loves him.
Everyone knows him.
But with that, we're going to get into the good man scarcity.
I don't know if you've seen the discourse on Twitter if you're an avid Twitter user, but this post popped up, I think it was about two days ago, and I'll flash it on the screen here.
Basically, lamenting the current dynamics in the dating world.
Here, this poster, Ali Voss, says, one of the toughest things about the Christian dating scene is that the women are all over at the Baptist non-denominate church, and the men are at all the most trad places they can find.
And a lot of people resonated with this.
A lot of people were providing their two cents on the matter.
And I figured, who better to bring in than two, I would say, Chud Maxers.
I would say that would be a good description of these two gentlemen.
But with that, I don't know, Connor, you can introduce yourself first, and then we'll kick the pat.
Yeah, Chud Maxing by getting married over the drama.
Yeah.
So the interesting thing about this transatlantic experiment is that we don't have like massive non-dom churches over in the UK, but we still have among the Christian influencer spheres something that I've noticed over in the States, which is the divide between, okay, three types of women.
There are the like quiet trad caths who don't make a big show of being on Instagram or Twitter and actually don't contribute much to discourse, but instead actually live out their values.
Like they'll go to the traditional Latin Mass Society in London.
They'll often struggle finding traditional Catholic men who aren't already paired up.
And we've tried to play, you know, we've tried to induce people over in the UK and it just, it's basically impossible.
Then there's the evangelical women who on the continuum of exoterically conservative but temperamentally liberal are like full-blown girl bosses.
So we've discussed this before.
You'll get evangelical women that will like henpeck their husbands to death.
And you see this in discourse, whether it's there was a clip of Ali Bestocki going out of the weekend where she was criticized saying that, men, we need you to step up and lead, you know, quit the porn, et cetera.
You know, good message, but at the same time, there's a there's a bunch of women that are just reading smart like the like the minotaur milking farm stuff and that's not being taken down.
We'll have to sit down Seamus for like a like a O'Clockwalk Orange subjection thing The fact that they they feel the need to like long house men with Christian window dressing means there's still a problem of feminization over there.
And then the third problem is, and I hope I don't indict myself here, but if you do date in conservative circles, we love our e-girls, folks.
However, a lot of them are exoterically conservative, we'll wear across on television, but are temperamentally liberal.
And so what you get is women who draw themselves towards conservative politics because they're attracted to the limelight, the fame, the attention, and the acclaim, especially because pretty much everyone in politics wants an attractive woman parroting their talking points to sell it to young women who are drifting leftward.
So that means that you end up getting the sort of craziest, most superficial fame-obsessed women to talk these talking points and ends up discrediting them over time.
And yeah, I write for places like Chronicles Magazine, Federalist, The Blaze.
I've been honored to have been on Finpool's show a few times.
So that's kind of the general overview of what I'm about.
But this is clearly a very interesting subject.
And I don't know if it's quite everyone's favorite subject.
You know, prior to October 7th, maybe I would have said that dating discourse would have been everyone's favorite subject.
But unfortunately, for the people really into this topic, it was eclipsed by the Jews slash Israel.
So we'll see how long that lasts.
But yeah, I mean, aside from the Jews and dating, what really is there to discuss, right?
No.
So yeah, on the dating subject, on the good men scarcity, these sorts of things, it is very interesting because many of sort of younger under 40 conservatives, also I'm 36.
I'll include that and kind of include myself in this ambiguity, artificially constructed younger category here.
No, but basically conservatives under 40, most of us, even if you were raised conservative, you probably, I mean, you weren't really raised in a world where conservative values reigned.
So you are kind of trying to rediscover things in a sense.
You're trying to reinvent the wheel.
And for a lot of us who, you know, maybe were raised moderately conservative, became very conservative, you know, the sort of status quo for tapped in millennials and Zoomers is, again, very different even than probably what you were raised with if you were raised conservative.
So the point there is that a lot of us have this idea in our heads of what being based, being conservative, being trad means.
And it's not something that, unlike in previous generations, we've just received through the process of right cultural transmission.
It's not really an organic thing.
We're just kind of like, you know, on the internet, like, how do I be trad?
How do I be, you know, the women are thinking, how do I be a trad wife?
Men are thinking, how can I get the trad wife?
How can I be, you know, a Giga Chad alpha male?
And so that it's kind of a process of, we're kind of like grasping around at like, you know, just trying to figure out like, well, what, how do we be this sort of archetype?
And it's important to understand that, you know, again, our grandparents, our great-grandparents, so on, all the way back didn't really go through that.
So this process, what Connor said definitely kind of relates to this in the sense that you have some of the people are trying to be, it's almost like a cargo cult.
They're adopting the external trappings of what it is to be a trad wife.
Well, of course I'm a trad wife.
I have my cross and I've got the veil that I'm putting on for these Instagram pictures.
And of course I'm a trad wife.
Well, I think we all understand that what it means to be traditionally minded or to live a conservative life is ultimately something that needs to stem from the inside.
It needs to flow outward.
And to whatever extent there are these external trappings, right, they're manifestations of an internal sort of disposition.
So some women and I guess men doing trying to do their own trad thing or might be, if they're influencers, maybe in some cases definitely are disingenuous and insincere in what they're doing.
It's just a show.
And, you know, other people that kind of do this cargo cult, again, going back to what I said earlier, they just are trying, right?
You have to give them credit, but not always, you know, all effort doesn't always bring people to where they necessarily need to be.
And really, I think this post specifically, what it's highlighting is the massive rift that's occurred between men and women, where we're almost in two different worlds, it feels like.
I mean, what they're hitting on and what the application a lot of, you know, based older guys were giving is like, oh, well, you should just kind of go to these churches, these mega churches, you know, put your time in there to find a wife and then rescue her and bring her to a, you know, a trad church, which, you know, probably does work in some capacity.
But like you were saying, Pat, I mean, these are not things that our even our parents, certainly our grandparents, had to wrestle with.
They didn't have to deal with this sort of massive rift between the genders.
Brian, I don't know how to say his name, Brian Sawav.
I see his name on Twitter all the time.
I just don't know how to pronounce it.
But he provided some commentary.
I think it's very, very salient.
He says, if you want to understand this very real phenomenon, you have to understand what those Baptist slash non-denominate churches are.
They are citadels of feminism.
Megachurch culture is long-housed Christian culture, which means it creates women who are quite dangerous to marry.
Yeah, this is kind of downstream from, okay, they're providing something that's of tremendous value to women.
You know, they are very affirming of sort of the plights of women, and that really goes unaddressed.
Men's plights go unaddressed.
And that's why you see them kind of filter into these more trad religious arrangements.
But this is really scary that, I mean, we can see the numbers of the marriage rate going down.
The primary way people are couples are forming is through dating apps, which just kind of is a band-aid on a, as an axe wound.
Because I mean, again, if the only way to mend this rift is with an algorithm, yeah, we're kind of cooked.
I don't know, Connor, if you have some thoughts.
I know you've spoken before on sort of this rift that's occurred between the sexes as far as the types of institutions we engage with and interact with.
Lomaz has this great phrase where he says, everyone troons out about something.
And it basically means that you're like, some of us can become like male to male or female to female transsexuals.
That's what Mary Harrington says about Andrew Tate.
Like he's such a performative emblem of masculinity with his like fleet of Bugattis in his harem where he's like a modern Genghis Khan, that he's a male to male transsexual.
And this is the same thing.
Like if you're LARPing as a trad wife online, and rather than actually, you know, baking sourdough with your phone put away, you're economizing your entire family life and your marriage for social media content.
Yeah, you might be the wellspring from which cultural cascade flows, but a lot of the time it's that you're too in the internet and you're too self-aware to actually live an authentic trad life.
As far as the divide between the sexes, I think this is being exacerbated by the type of church.
Much like social media and much like dating apps, you could apply the Marshall McLuhan phrase, the medium is the message.
The very structure of the churches themselves are exacerbating the sex divide.
This is why you're seeing last Easter, 40% of the catechumens in both France and Britain were young men under the age of 30.
So they're gravitating back towards even if the church doctrine itself is weakened by successive popes, you know, blessing blocks of ice like it's a pagan ritual or something, they like the smells and bells of Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
Whereas the Anglican church, which has fully made itself subservient to gay race communism and had like drag queens in its church services doing karaoke nights, they're now outnumbered two to one by Catholics, and it's not just because of the birth rates.
Whereas these mega non-denominational churches, they don't have the same hierarchy, the same call to beauty, the same imposition of responsibility on you to be a custodian of tradition.
Instead, they're more akin to the therapeutic society that social media increasingly chat GPT reflecting your own opinions back at you.
A lot of self-help podcasts do, of where they say, you know, Jesus loves you and he'll meet you where you are.
And all you need to do is stick your hands up and sing along with the local school band.
And, you know, worship's just as good as if you're putting in the work, so to speak.
And that's why I think it attracts a lot more of a temperamentally liberal, even if they're exoterically Christian and conservative female denomination.
And that's why the men don't want to go there because they hear this woolly egalitarianism during the, well, you would say, what, service or preacher sermon?
I would say homily.
And they just go, ew.
Like, I'd rather go to a place with gargoyles telling me that I'm not good enough, you know?
So I think that's what's exacerbating.
It's actually like the medium and the aesthetics of the church.
Well, I think for to drill down on that, I think what's interesting is analyzing the market calculation that these megachurches have made is women, you know, are going to flock to these churches.
Why is that?
The Washington Post put out this article, see, October 28th.
The headline was, MAGA singles are looking for love in Washington.
It's a challenge.
And the sub-headline, the politics of trying to find a partner in an overwhelmingly liberal city can be tricky.
Quote, my partner can't think I'm a fascist.
That's crazy.
And in this article, they interview a few people and they kind of just talk about the troubles they're having.
But there was a tweet in response to that, that post that we led with.
It was from Scott Greer, who coined the term the good man scarcity, which is kind of a tongue-in-cheek sort of thing.
He wrote, The Washington Post recently did a profile on conservative women in DC complaining about good men scarcity within MAGA.
Most of their complaints were that they didn't go to church enough, went to the wrong church, and failed to live up to their unrealistic ideals.
The main women interviewed, the main woman interviewed has spent her week condemning Halloween as an abomination.
A lot of the stuff about good men's scarcity is a result of conflicting priorities, men falling behind as women advance and subsequent unrealistic standards.
This is even more apparent among conservative women.
And I think like if we were to drill down on the issue, like, you know, there's enough content out there, you know, critiquing women or their behavior, et cetera, et cetera.
I think what's the important thing that's being glossed over that Scott did hit on, and I think this is really salient, is the reason that these megachurches even see it fit in the first place to primarily cater to young women is because men have fallen behind.
Men are just failing to matriculate in these sorts of things.
And the response from the Christian world has just been to browbeat men even more, right?
It's to say, you know, there's something wrong.
There's something you got to pick up, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps, these sorts of things.
But yeah, it's clear.
It's clear to me that with these mega churches, the reason they're making this calculation is because, yeah, the men, the men's priorities are all jumbled because they're falling behind the society in general.
They're falling behind.
You're seeing like colleges, women outnumber men and college degrees now by a pretty good golf, among other things.
I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on this, on any thoughts of specifically, you know, men falling behind as women advanced, as Scott pointed out.
I believe that younger men are out-earned by younger women now.
There could be some nuances to that.
I remember reading an article a few years ago.
It was only in certain cities, but the city, it was like most major cities.
There are a lot of, yeah, there have been some pretty profound changes in cultural, social, economic changes in America in the last few decades.
And yeah, I don't think people are really happier than they were before these changes.
I don't know how much we can, to what extent we can roll back the clock.
I mean, it's just as one example, you know, people always talk about the one family income back in the 50s, you know, when people were living the trad life.
And it's like, well, we can't recreate the 50s.
We could bring back maybe some good aspects of the 50s, but a lot has changed.
And you can even go back a few decades ago.
So I don't know.
I think there are a lot of changes.
Women are more independent these days.
They're making more money.
They're also more politically liberal.
For all that can be said about, I know we've largely been talking about within the conservative world, but I just want to say that for everything that can be said about people moving rightward in the 2024 election, you had the map of all of these counties across the country that went red.
A lot of that was men.
And a lot of it was minority men, which is kind of the funny thing.
I mean, Trump kept the same amount of the white vote that he did from previous election cycles.
It was like 65, 66 or so.
And that might be a little off, but the fact remains that it was, you know, white women are, you know, they might lean Trump, but overall, the trajectory, especially for younger women, and you see this actually around the world, Financial Times had a good article that had all of these graphs.
You've probably seen them on Twitter, that there is an ideological gender polarization that's happening.
It's not quite as pronounced in America as it is in, say, South Korea, where it's like the men are like hardcore, like, you know, incel nationalists, and the women are like extreme feminists.
That's obviously a terrible model for society.
But the thing to keep in mind is that, you know, that process is probably kind of the same within conservatives, within the world of conservatism, where you do have women that, you know, even, yeah, they're like Trump, whatever.
They still might have some more liberal views on what men should do and not do, what, you know, they should, what should be expected of them, how relationships should work.
So again, this isn't to blame everything on women.
You know, you talk to female conservatives, you know, friends of mine, and they'll tell you all about like crazy dating stories trying to find, yeah, because you got to put yourself in the, you know, maybe, maybe don't think too much of it that way.
But, you know, from a woman's perspective who is like right-wing, traditionally minded, you know, if you go on a dating app, you got guys that have like pronouns in their bios and stuff.
So it's, you know, it can be rough out there for them as well.
I don't, I don't fully buy into either narrative that it's all the women that are the problem.
It's all the men.
I think, you know, there's plenty of blame to go around.
But the idea that there are no good men and that, you know, there are tons of good women that just can't find a good man because there are no good men.
Yeah, the women saying that it's usually a question of standards, you know, overweight women maybe thinking that they deserve six, five, you know, GigaTrad chad or something of the sort.
And yeah, there's a lot that we could get into there.
I want to pick up on that and just say that some of the frustration about the inadequate formation of said giga chats, the lack of the lack of them, has been because of Helen Andrews had a recent piece on this about the great feminization,
the sort of institutional henpecking of men by every single institution where in a short amount of time, women have benefited from preferential hiring measures and become the sort of dominant institutional culture, even if they aren't the majority in a corporation.
And so the female style of conflict resolution, often driving things underground, like reputation destruction, indirectness, passive aggression, has become the way of dealing with disputes rather than the directness of men, which is always undergirded by if you say the wrong thing, we can take it out to the parking lot and have a punch up.
And then probably be bros afterwards as well, because it's a lot easier to have respect for someone if you've, you know, traded fist to cuffs.
Bring back dueling, basically.
And so what's happened is because the men can't get this aggression out of their system, they either cave and become inadequate and incapable of confrontation and violence.
I mean, like, so I, I'll be careful where I say this was, but I've worked in right-wing organizations where there have been a very small number of female employees and they are on paper signed up to all of our opinions on migration, especially because it's a personal threat to them.
But the institutional culture, when masculine banter rears its ugly head, HR comes down on you like a ton of bricks and you're accused of being insensitive or too direct or too blunt.
And I'm just like, fuck me, pull the golden parachute.
I hate this.
Get me out of here.
And that becomes so intolerable to men that either you drive men out of those spaces or the men that gravitate to those spaces are obsequious and therefore disgusting because women actually, you know, they would quite like a leader.
Or the men who do react to this lose the concept of ambiguous complementarity.
It's the phrase that Ivan Illich used to describe how the sexes just sort of got along before we had to re-examine the way that we got along in light of the industrial and then the sexual revolutions trying to level the way that men and women both worked and also slept with each other.
When the jobs became interchangeable, when the birth control pill removed consequences from sex and the state started subsidizing single mothers' poor decisions, then men and women lost the language to understand each other's differences and they went from being Adam and Eve to Cain and Abel.
Like we existed in this kind of sibling society.
And so to try and work out a relationship with one another without understanding that, yeah, she's going to have an impulse and say some frivolous nonsense and you can't overreact to it.
You've got to be like a rock upon which her emotional waves break.
If you get frustrated, it's actually a sign that you aren't a leader in your own relationship.
You need to be emotionally stalwart, even if she drives you mad sometimes.
Not being able to understand that means that pairing up feels kind of incestuous and wrong.
And so you'd rather go monk mode and retreat either into porn and video games or, you know, posting about Nietzsche and vitalism on the internet.
And so this means that a lot of good guys are also put off of women because they don't have the frame of reference, especially if they come from broken homes, to understand why women are slightly different, but it shouldn't be a form of frustration.
It should actually be the reason that you're attracted to them.
And it's the same with women.
Women institutionalize femininity, produce feminine men, and then go, where have all the good men gone?
And it's like, okay, if you allowed men to act like men and have their own spaces, maybe you would be able to have more eligible partners that you weren't competing with for the same opportunities.
I mean, kind of to that point, there's this clip that's been going around of Ali Beth Stuckey speaking at a turning point event.
I think it was in Louisiana at LSU.
And the quote that stood out that everyone's kind of highlighting, discussing was this quote, men, we need you.
We need your masculinity and your strength and courage.
And we need those things to be harnessed for good, which is obviously true.
But to the point you made, a lot of men just feel crowded out or feel like hostility from these institutions that they historically would be participating and leading in.
And it makes you sit back and you go, okay, well, we're getting two conflicting messaging here, right?
Like we need you, we need masculinity, et cetera, et cetera.
But then as soon as that's, you know, flexed, it gets, you know, you get knocked down, you get, you get crowded out.
And I think that's kind of the same thing happening.
And this is what worries me was off that initial tweet again is, you know, obviously in the United States and the West broadly, the conservative right has successfully prescribed an anecdote for a lot of the madness, which be increased religiosity for a variety of reasons.
Among one, that it sort of structures your life and sort of an eternal, like you sort of develop this eternal mindset and this sorts of thing.
But the problem is with these churches, you know, appealing to femininity almost exclusively, or at least appealing to women exclusively, is it crowds men out.
And okay, yes, in our space, a lot of men are sort of circumventing that by going to these, you know, trad, traditional churches, these sorts of things.
But I think the vast majority of men are just not.
They're just slipping through the cracks.
They're not attending church and they're retreating into sort of this nihilism that you outlined, like, you know, porn, you know, but even beyond that, like the sports betting's gotten out of control and everything.
And I think all these things are compounding factors because men are crowded out of these institutions that would provide them with direction that would sort of reorient their mindset to a more eternal one.
I mean, if you're, if you're not, if you don't have like an eternal mindset, then how could you even begin to go about, you know, planning your life out for children or purchasing a home or, you know, building some sort of business or something, something that would last, that would outlast you.
It's tough to even get the ball rolling if you are the only sort of things in your life are just temporary pleasure, these sorts of things, like, you know, porn, you know, draft kings, what do they call them, a fan dual Americans?
Like, it's really tough to break out of that framing when you're being boxed out of these institutions.
There are a lot of problems and it's, I think it's important for people to try to stay positive, no matter how bleak things can seem, no matter how bad the other sex might be.
People are, people are, people are not doing well these days overall.
And, you know, if your social circle is like put together young professionals who are married in their 20s and they're not overweight and they, you know, they're religious, they're conservative.
That's like, I think we all understand that's not representative, not only of society overall, but it's probably not representative, no offense to my Twitter followers, of people on Twitter, even people that are posting about this stuff all day.
And it's important, yeah, it's just important to keep in mind that, you know, in many ways, our respective generations, I think both of you guys are Zoomers.
I'm an old head millennial here, but our generations and, you know, we're the poor, God bless generation alpha, but we've been handed unideal, we've been dealt on ideal hands, basically.
And, you know, you just have to, you just have to play with the hand that you're dealt.
And it's important not to develop kind of a right-wing victim complex where you're like, well, women, women just suck these days.
They're all like fat feminists, which, you know, again, there's some truth to that.
But, you know, just say, well, like, yeah, I'm just like, yeah, screw.
I don't have to.
Relieves me of my obligation to contribute to society in the form of having a family, but also in the sense of what you owe, you're denying yourself something that's very good and very worthwhile.
To say something radioactive to pick up on that point, I've noticed as you said earlier, the dating discourse tipped quite quickly into the geopolitics, particularly Israel-Palestine discourse, because I think over time, the red pill sphere has deteriorated from source and become profoundly brown-coded.
Because a lot of the complaints are about how non-white women act, and they're then projected onto white women.
Am I right?
When I don't think that's necessarily the case.
Like, yeah, there's a lot of liberal white women, but the problems per capita, especially among divorce rates, if you break them down by race in the United States, are not nearly that bad among whites, especially church attending whites versus blacks and Hispanics.
And so it doesn't map on one-to-one.
That's why you shouldn't actually be blackpilled about dating discourse if you're a young, sensitive Christian white man.
Like, yeah, it might be harder to find a wife at your specific church.
But one thing I accidentally learned, and here's a note of optimism from me, which is really rare, is that I actually met my wife doing an experiment on dating apps for Lotus Eaters when I was there.
Because I was the only single Zoomer in the office, and the economist podcast presenter was like, figure out how the algorithms work.
And my conclusion was they're basically demons who promise you infinite optionality, but instead put you on a carousel of self-commodification like you're an Amazon product.
And they defer the date at which you meet someone eligible because they want to sell you advertisements or a subscription service.
So, you know, get off them and have your village elder set you up with a nice Christian girl that he happens to know.
Your New Year's resolution, if you're a boomer or you're old enough to be a millennial like you, Pat, should be introducing two young Zoomers who are desperate to not go to a mega church or, you know, meet some gay Republican staffer in DC and have your hope and time wasted.
And instead, I accidentally found my wife on Hinge.
Like a bunch of my friends have met their partners on Hinge, or wives and girlfriends, because I basically spurk hacked it.
Like you set the restrictions to be so limited that the other people who are sick to death of the apps and using it for the genuine reason other than listless hookups will eventually run into you.
And so in another age, I might have met my wife at the village fair or a town meeting or something like that because she was a 10-minute walk down the road the entire time.
But if you set your parameters really limited, you can basically use dating apps like a Ouija board and exercise the demons.
Actually, the biggest teller is, yes, put politically conservative, but my wife on her profile had moderate because she was like a default lib, but she was curious.
And actually, the best women, and this is a proper tip that kind of circles back around to one of the concerns that we have about exoterically conservative, but temperamenting liberal women, is apolitical women are actually much better than very politically involved women.
There's this meme online of like a conversation where some woman's like, what's happening in Ukraine?
And then the guy just responds, don't worry, darling.
And she goes, okay, that's the kind of relationship you actually want.
She might be able to pick up your politics, but she shouldn't be as politically involved and obsessive as you because it can become just as unhealthy as having a social media addiction or something like that.
Yeah, and then you end up in a situation where like, you know, your, your relationship stuffers because you disagree on, you know, the ideal form of like tariff policy or something of the sort.
I mean, it's, and you're kind of providing an anecdote for what Pat was saying, whereas, you know, he's saying you kind of had the deal or you got to, you know, play the hand that you're dealt.
And it's so true because it's like, okay, yes, you can prescribe the issues, but you as an individual is not going to provide a society-wide anecdote.
And that's why I thought it was actually kind of a valid strat that some of these guys were proposing, which was like, okay, just go tuck your head down and go to the non-denam church like for a weekday sort of event.
And then, yeah, then vacate the scene.
Like, I don't know.
These sorts of things you actually do need to start thinking about because it's like, okay, you could either harp on about it and then just like hope for the best, hope like something comes across your desk, or you can, you know, actually start actively making some plays.
I think that's worthwhile.
Yeah, because like Pat was saying as well, like there's this problem on the right of not just a victim culture, but embracing the things that make us, I guess, victims per se.
Like there's a huge embrace of, I would say, kind of borderline slop culture.
And this is going to get me in trouble, but it's just true.
There's like this embrace of like the lump and proletariat, I think is what people, what people say, where, you know, they embrace the things about, they embrace the things that actually sort of keep us crowded out of institutions.
Like, oh, no, we should just dress sloppy on purpose.
Oh, we should speak like barbarians on purpose.
You see these things.
You see this embrace of these things.
And I think it's actually detrimental, but it's an impulse that exists because people just say, oh, if you're going to judge us on these merits, then we're just going to double down on it.
But it just kind of exasperates the problem.
And so, yeah, all this to say, like, yeah, I think there is some value, though, in just kind of like approaching the situation as it exists and then, you know, getting clever with your strats.
I've heard some clever strats that I can't disclose with the dating apps because they're too esoteric knowledge.
But I don't know if you DM me, maybe I'll disclose some of the some of the right price.
But yeah, I don't know if you guys have thoughts on sort of the sort of embrace of the things that actually sort of incapacitate us as a political strategy.
I'm seeing this quite a bit.
Like there was that guy, I forget who it was, where he was just like, oh, the anecdote to the dating woes is just go on a road trip and like talk to gas station clerks and then like you'll meet your wife there.
And it's like, okay, as someone that, you know, routinely purchases Zins from these lovely ladies, there's not much wife material there.
I was going to say real quick, I'm not going to be able to find the post.
I'm looking here, but I'm pretty sure someone did that because they wanted to see what would happen if you actually Twitter's dating advice drove across the country and stopped at gas stations in the middle of nowhere trying to find a wife.
And yeah, again, this is probably maybe suspended.
I just can't find it.
Searching gas station wife on Twitter brings up some weird stuff.
Don't do it.
But at the end of the day, Twitter has like, there's a lot of terrible advice out there.
And it's oftentimes people, they're not giving you the advice that worked for them.
It would be like Connor here, if he were to tell you that, you know, you don't have to only advocate for what worked for you.
You were to say, don't try the apps, the apps don't work, you need to, and then you created some like scenario in your head that you think sounds good that nevertheless, like you, you don't know if it's ever worked for anyone.
Like, yeah, if you were the guy saying, Yeah, don't try the apps, you want to just drive across the country and just hit on random women at bus stops.
That's how it's going to work.
It'd be like, Well, what did you do?
Like, it wasn't that.
So, uh, yeah, a lot of people are giving advice that they just didn't take.
And yeah, I mean, as to like what the right solution, I don't know.
I think people are coping and they're trying to think outside of the box.
And, you know, it is social media.
So, social media often rewards novelty.
Even if you have a take that's so, you know, bad that people just, everyone's dunking on it.
Okay, well, like, sometimes people get put on the map that way.
Sometimes people, you know, no shade to Solbras, for example, but you know, his first big thing on the scene was the Solbra cookbook.
And it was like 40 pages.
And it would be like one of the things would be like sushi.
You know, sushi is great.
You've got good macros.
And then like, you know, you can go buy it at a number of different places.
And that would, that would be like the page for sushi.
And people, everyone was just like, this is ridiculous.
But people were like, this is kind of funny.
Next thing you know, Solbrow is like a big name.
And yeah, I don't know.
I like his posts.
It's no shade to him.
But, you know, some of this bad dating advice that you're seeing out there, part of it is people probably thinking like, you know, this will get people talking.
And they're all dependent on like best case scenario outcomes, but it's usually not the case.
Like, okay, yeah, maybe one guy met his wife in a shell station in Utah.
Like, all of a sudden, this is the prescription.
It's like generally not.
And this problem exists with everything is they give these blanket prescriptions of like, I think everyone's looking for a hack to sort of subvert the conventional, you know, life tracks.
But these require like a very specific things to occur in order for them to work out.
I mean, like, this, this has been sort of litigated at ad nauseum, but it's true is like you're talking about where people give advice that they don't even take.
Is you see all these people in the conservative space that are like, don't go to college and just like have a ton of kids and these sorts of things.
And then you like analyze their resume and they have like a master's, they have like two kids typically.
And it's because in order for that to work, which, you know, if you play your cards right, that you will develop quite a nice life for yourself.
You need some like really specific chips to fall.
We're generally like, it's still probably worth it to go to college and it's still probably worth it to be a bit more cautious with who you marry.
Because we have a large proportion of the population that has done those things, maybe not influenced by Twitter, but have done those things in application.
And they have a really rough, rough go at it.
But yeah, it's just, it's really infuriating to see that prescription.
It's specifically the college thing.
It drives me crazy.
I mean, like, and again, I'm not, I'm in total agreement with the problems with the college system, but like encouraging guys to just completely retreat from that space, I think, is going to cause a lot of guys problems.
And yeah, I mean, I don't know if you guys have thoughts on that specifically, but it's just, it's bizarre to see guys who have had a very conventional life track try to give this like super esoteric knowledge that again only works in specific applications.
It's the inverse of Rob Henderson's concept of luxury beliefs.
It's like lump and pro beliefs and where they're extolling, they're basically extolling something to then covertly compete with other people for the same opportunities.
And yet again, it's a very feminine way of doing things.
Like to tie it into something that's running concurrent to discourse that we can't show on screen because it would violate YouTube TS.
But the infamous Sidney Sweeney, basically transparent dress that's been glorifying.
She was getting like mulged in real time, which is obvious female covert competition.
But there was a post that articulated that said she's done the worst possible thing with being classically attractive and America's sweetheart while also making nudity possible.
And she's broken Chesterton's bra because the idea is that now there's going to be an arms race to appeal to men with like perfect breast size and other women are going to hate her for it and not be able to compete.
And so it's just going to get completely out of hand.
And it's the same thing, right?
Everyone's covertly competing for the same resources, the same people.
And so very little advice on the internet you're going to get is going to be sincere unless you've already gotten the last chopper out of an arm.
So I feel capable to impart it.
And lots of people are going to capitalize on the seething resentment that they've got by telling you, by setting up an entire podcast infrastructure that says, hey, you know, don't bother going to church.
They're all going to be hideous feminists.
Don't bother working out.
The game's rigged against you.
Instead, sit around and watch these OnlyFans girls be told about how their lifestyle is awful while we're also, you know, actually covertly advertising their wares to you and paying them to come on the show.
So I, yeah, basically unplug from discourse is my, is my, it's not a great sales pitch to have on a podcast, but you know, it's helpful.
Yeah, well, yeah, you see this weird thing where it seems to be more pronounced with women, but it does exist with men too, is they grow increasingly frustrated with the competition and then they just nuke their own sex appeal as like some sort of some sort of mechanism.
This is really persistent on the left, obviously, where, you know, the classic trope of like the blue-haired feminists or whatever.
Like the reason they're doing that is because they find they've come to a point where they find the concept that a male would find them attractive so repulsive that they just kind of nuke their own sex appeal by and large.
I'm joking for the record, but yeah, I was just like, how is that?
How is that possible?
So the thing is, you keep referencing, shall we say, different cultural, ethnic backgrounds and their, you know, their traditional understandings of what men and women are.
And you really do see that in kind of the POA sort of Andrew Tate sphere, where it's a sort of level of resentment toward women, type of resentment toward women that comes from people who, you know, cultures that don't have the same level of, you know, marriage rates, you know, out of wedlock, births are higher.
You know, dads don't stick around as often.
So you're raised by a single mother who, A, is, you know, demanding that you act like a sort of caricature of what basically what, you know, maybe the average woman thinks a man should be.
You know, a man should be, you know, the guy who never gives me the ick.
He's always, you know, that's how you end up with this like cartoonish conceptions of masculinity, someone who's going to try to stab you for stepping on his shoe by accident, but, you know, abandon his kids and won't, you know, can't put food on the table for a family.
So these sorts of things are very backward.
And we absolutely should be on guard against these sorts of values.
By the way, you don't have to be white to accept these basic first world values.
We should be on guard against these values seeping into the actual right, um, because these sorts of things starting to emulate uh sort of third world uh sexual relations uh obviously is a recipe for disaster.
When phrased that way, I hope everyone can agree and see why.
So, you've done a good job of drawing attention to that, both of you had.
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of the flip side of the irony poisoning that's persistent is like doubling down on like caricatures of what these like what a super serious person would look like when the answer is just kind of behaving normally.
Like, that's that's the answer, that's the anecdote.
Um, yeah, well, I think that's kind of the problem with the trad thing is uh, there's almost an overcalculation where then you just become really weird.
Because like the reality is in the United States, you know, the majority of Americans are evangelicals.
They're they're attending sort of these Baptist non-denominations and they're finding value in it.
And I think, um, you know, I think, yes, there's a lot of obviously a lot of problems with these sorts of arrangements, but yeah, people are kind of overcorrecting and they're embracing people that are politically aspirant are embracing sort of a form of traditional Christianity that is really foreign and kind of strange to Americans.
I think this is why Charlie Kirk specifically resonated with so many Americans is because he sort of came out of that world.
He came out of that evangelical world and met people where they were at, even though he obviously took it very seriously.
He knew theology, you know, like some of these theological arguments, like, you know, like the back of his hand.
But yeah, there's kind of this weird thing that happens on the right where guys over correct and embrace really sort of almost foreign positions.
But I guess why I was reminded of that is, yeah, the embrace of like the third world sort of view of masculinity is not helpful.
But I think even like in our own space, this trad thing, while it's good and worthwhile and should be pursued, you often see overcorrections where they just start to look down on middle Americans.
And I think this problem has persisted in American society for a long time where like, you know, there's this sort of tension between the coastal elite and the middle Americans.
So I think it's actually kind of emerging on the right to some degree where you have these guys who feel like they've unlocked this hidden knowledge and now they begin to look down on like evangelicals.
When in reality, I mean, evangelicals provide the majority of the Trump base.
They vote for Trump and Republicans at large are like dictatorial numbers, like 80, 90%.
And I just don't see it particularly helpful to just completely write them off to completely look down.
I mean, there are generational differences, religious differences between a boomer evangelical and a Zoomer or even millennial Catholic or even agnostic right-winger or even Protestant right-winger.
Because we've seen the polls and dispensationalist theology is not as popular among younger evangelicals, younger Protestants, maybe just in general.
And I think that points to the fact that this whole like kind of boomer evangelical sort of status quo was really the product of specific circumstances and factors that don't really exist anymore.
So when you see like Mike Huckabee talking about swinging Sweet Home Jerusalem on stage, I feel like it's kind of almost like a time capsule because these people are still around, but like that era is ending.
And I think a lot of younger people hearing just hearing the way that generation talks, especially that subset of that generation, is kind of why the discourse has gotten very crazy.
But the question of like, yeah, even white evangelicals are the backbone of the Republican Party.
I don't have to agree with them on every issue.
But the idea that these people, look, if you're just bash, like punching down on, you know, salt of the earth middle American white people as a right-winger, not just like disagreeing with, you know, maybe some ideas or attitudes they have, then you really have to ask yourself how you're fundamentally any different from kind of the anti-white left.
Because an anti-white left, you know, these people, they're not bashing, you know, the white people in this coalition, they're not bashing each other, right?
It's there's kind of a class and culture and even religious, these sorts of dimensions to that form of anti-whiteness.
Yeah, yeah, well, because you're seeing as the evangelical sort of world sort of comes out of that, like you're talking about that boomer evangelicalism, huckbeism, you're still seeing the infusion of conservatism within the evangelical world.
Like it's still very pronounced.
Like this is kind of a side, but I think it was actually kind of important was Forrest Frank.
He's a music artist.
He's emerged out of the evangelical world.
His music is, you know, huge in the evangelical world.
He's like, you know, he's an A-lister if you grow up in these types of churches.
And it's primarily young people, obviously, that listen to his music.
And following the assassination of Charlie Kirk, he came out and he was like, this is horrible.
You know, like the violence out of control and these sorts of things.
It was a message that indicated that that infusion of, or yeah, that kind of interest, that infusion of conservatism is still very prevalent in the evangelical church, even as it kind of exits that as it existed before.
And yeah, it's just not worthwhile to like try to nitpick these people because it's going to be around.
It's a form of Christianity that really makes sense that it exists in the United States because in many ways it is downstream from a lot of the values that sort of animated Americans for the longest time.
But yeah, that's why I thought that was interesting that, okay, yes, there's kind of this shift away from like dispensational theology in the evangelical church, but that infusion of conservatism is still there.
It's still pronounced and it reflects well of evangelical values that it kind of just naturally one-to-one.
And so, yeah, that's why I think it's kind of bizarre, this, this overcorrection that we're seeing among right wingers that are sort of aspirational elite, even if they're not quite there yet.
It just doesn't seem productive or beneficial in any way.
Just keep in mind, when you bash white evangelicals, you just imagine Richard Hinania do it.
That's basically what you're that's that you're you are Richard Hinania for those five to ten seconds that those cursed utterances leave your mouth or you type them out.
The spirit of Richard Hinania, he like astral projects and he like takes over.
Well, so the problem with the UK is we don't really have a reservoir among the general population of religious or Christian feeling.
It's actually kind of the inverse.
Like the DraftKings Americans that you're talking about is, you know, we have quite a large culture, a working class culture that shouldn't be scorned, but it's not necessarily healthy for them of drinking and going down betting shops and, you know, knowing at least one person who's on welfare or benefits in our country, watching the football.
And your engagement with politics or moral philosophy is, you know, I like the pub.
I like my family.
I like my country.
I'll put a flag up simple as.
And they're sort of the earth people and they're pretty good.
But it means that they're up until a point susceptible to media manipulation.
Is why they've tried to roll out this, like the guy from the opening scene of seven as an influencer now.
Basically, his name's Big John, and all he does is eat the Chinese takeaways.
And his entire argument on the mainstream media is, oh, if you're racist, I can't have a curry every day, so therefore, infinity Bamalians.
And it's like, well, okay, the fact that they feel like this will wash means that there isn't a strong bulwark of thinking that there is you're on a spiritual mission outside of your immediate pleasures.
But the one encouraging thing is that the guys that I know that are entering politics now, there's a handful of like superficial grifters and that, but they're actually a lot like Charlie.
So they either don't drink or drink very little, no drugs, no hookups, are engaged or in committed relationships, or are bullying their friends that can't get their act together.
And so as an emerging vanguard leadership class in academia, media, politics, et cetera, they're a lot more virtuous and a lot less compromised than the politicians of yesteryear who cosplayed as right-wingers but were degenerate liberals who just wanted the non-judgment of their particular vices, be it sexual or powdered or in the bottom of a bottle.
And so the driving force in our country on the right is Christianity, even though you've got outlets that are more on a tech bro right side of things.
So there's a decent outlet actually on Substack's publication called Pimlico Journal, and I've never picked a fight with them and I like some of their publications, but they've sniped at me a few times and I'm just like, okay, guys, you know, we're meant to be on the same side here.
If you want to nip heels, I think it's counterproductive.
But they put out a piece the other day being like against the Christian right and they named me and another patriot we'll have to have on the show sometime, Charlie Downs, as being the faces of a Christian nationalism that will never wash with the public.
And it's like, okay, guys, if you recognize that demographic fodder leads into democratic momentum with the Muslims, do you not realize that the fact that myself and Downs and literally a handful of other people are all the British right has to offer in terms of media presence?
And therefore, the conversions to things like Catholicism growing among our cohort is indicative of a trend that will, especially in politics, because they're politically and philosophically engaged, have an outsized presence on the politics of the future, especially in reaction to the desk cult leading our country that has just liberalized abortion at all times up to birth and instituted Canadian style made in our country.
Like, can you not foresee that this is a trend that's going to happen?
I'm glad it's an encouraging trend, but the people that are trying to stick the spokes in the wheels are just as unhelpful as the people that are pandering to the anti-white third world who have just come online on the internet in the last few years and will end up making them a lot of ad revenue if they focus on you know things like Israel-Palestine rather than the problems in their own country.
Well, guys, I don't know if we provided a specific prescription for finding your boo, your boo thing, but um, hopefully, we were able to drill down a little bit more on some of these dynamics that are being discussed.
Because, yeah, I mean, you're Twitter specifically, and most people watching are, you know, political people, so they're probably seeing a lot of the same things.
It's almost like there's a vested interest in sticking a thumb in the already existing divide between the two genders.
I mean, comes to mind is the postpartum body discourse that existed like two weeks ago, where women on Twitter got this idea in their head that men are like uniquely disturbed by the postpartum body, which any married man I've spoken to just says like that.
I didn't even know that was really like a thing that people were concerned about.
But yeah, I think like, look, the only prescription that can really be applicable would be not to blackpill, not to engage in anything.
Because look, the rift is there.
It's obvious there's a huge problem.
But it's not really worth giving these people.
Just really just mute these people when you see them as these people that are really attempting to capitalize on the divide that is there and is very prevalent and probably won't close for a little while.
So it's worthwhile to circumvent it.
Worthwhile to mute the people that are trying to drive you crazy.
I think that's definitely worthwhile.
But you two gentlemen, I got you give closing thoughts and where people can find you if they want more.
My advice would be that you need to be a leader before you get in your relationship.
And so blackpilling removes your agency and therefore makes you incapable of being said leader in your relationship, which is what a woman's going to be attracted to, and then creates a vicious circle.
So yeah, agree, don't blackpill.
As far as plugs, find me on X posting about how the fall of my country is ongoing at Colin underscore Tomlinson, Colin Thompson on Substack, YouTube, etc.
And I'm glad that we've got the show off to a good start where we are just going to be like the terminally online among the Anglosphere because we need our representation.
Well, you mentioned that we maybe didn't give the clearest set of prescriptions for how to deal with this sort of sexual dysfunction and, you know, the dysfunction between the sexes, I should say.
And yeah, we talked about, I think, I think I like that Connor mentioned that the dating apps can work as long as you, I say, even if you don't have like, you haven't cracked the code to find, you know, only you're only showing you the, you know, the aspiring trad wife, so to speak, that it's still, yeah, I meet people all the time that have, you know, wonderful relationships that turn into marriages that they met on dating apps.
I mean, you really get what you put into it.
And especially for guys, I don't think every woman on there is just looking to like have tons of promiscuous sex.
I mean, some are probably, but I think that a lot of the women that do are lonely and they just like they end up feeling bad about it.
Whereas it probably is a little more the case that, you know, it's guys on there that are that are trying to sleep with as many women as possible.
But yeah, I would say that you got to keep in mind you can meet people of the opposite sex in so many different places.
But generally speaking, if you have something going for you in terms of your career, education, and you also have a social life, that these things often will just fall into place.
And I think you have to avoid the traps that people fall into these days, which is, you know, just think you're just kicking the can down the road till you're till you're in your 30s.
I know I'm 30 and unmarried, but I've been in a relationship with a wonderful woman for a few years.
So it's heading in the right direction.
But, you know, you definitely don't want to kick the can down the road, especially ladies, you know, just wait till you finish your grad degree, get five years into your career.
It's, you know, some people still find success when that works out.
We do things that way.
But, you know, these are things you want to solve sooner rather than later.
And a lot of people who are kicking the can down the road are probably missing out on opportunities that are right in front of them.
But like we said, you know, people, you know, sometimes people meet their wife or husband at church.
I don't think that happens quite as often as people on Twitter would make it out to be.
Although I have a few friends that have been fortunate enough in that sense.
So it's less like there's one good place where all of the eligible bachelors or bachelorettes can be found.
And it's more that the decisions that you make every day will determine whether or not you find yourself in those good positions and whether or not you're someone, and this applies to both men and women, that someone of quality is going to be interested in marrying.
I don't know what's going on, but it's going to be really bleak when the consequences of some of these social changes really hit home for millennials, especially, you know, especially for the liberal ones.
You know, people, they find themselves in their 40s and they're just going out to, you know, regardless of how successful they're, just going out to bars and doing the trivia nights and whatever.
You know, once they start getting laid and once people start kind of realizing, especially for women, that it's kind of too late to really have the life that they eventually decide that they want to have, it's going to be bleak.
So don't be a psychic casualty.
Don't be a casualty in general of the insane times that we find ourselves in.
You got to tune into this show in subsequent episodes, of course, to get the full remedy to all the madness.
