Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

July 25, 2025 - The Culture War - Tim Pool

02:00:31

The DEMISE of South Africa & PERSECUTION of White People w/ Lara Logan & Ernst Roets

Participants

Main voices

ernst roets

34:58

lara logan

50:26

tate brown

11:23

tim pool

20:22

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		A couple nights ago, we were talking about an app on Timcast IRL.
		It's called like Protector or something.
		And it was an Uber for private security.
		I actually don't mind the idea.
		I guess they're targeting the wealthy areas of Los Angeles, namely like, I don't know, Malibu and Brentwood and stuff like this.
		But wealthy people are becoming increasingly concerned about the escalating crime in this country.
		And I think it was either maybe Mary was making the joke that soon we're going to have to have these big private security fences and apps for security.
		And I was like, you mean like in South Africa?
		To which Serge nods and laughs because that's where he's from.
		And so this subject, it's well known that in South Africa there's serious crime.
		There's private security as an attempted solution to this.
		That people have gates and security inside of their own homes because even after your house gets broken into, you've got to go flee somewhere else or sleep in a secure cage.
		Now, why is all this happening?
		What's going on in South Africa?
		And are the stories and rumors we hear true?
		That's the conversation we're going to be having.
		We have a couple of guests, but why don't we start with good, sir?
		You can go first.
		Who are you and what do you do?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Tim.
		It's great to be on the show.
		Thank you for having me a second time, and it's great to be here in studio.
		I'm Aaron Strutz, or Ernst, you could say.
		I live in South Africa.
		I live in Pretoria.
		And I am an author.
		I'm an author.
		I wrote the book Kill the Boer, which is about the farm killings in South Africa.
		I also recently started a think tank and an advocacy group called Lex Libertas.
		It's a new initiative.
		And it's aimed at it publishes research about developments in South Africa, but also it advocates for an alternative political dispensation in South Africa.
		And our argument is that the only way to really deal with the crisis in South Africa at the moment is to work towards decentralizing the political system so that the central government has less power.
		And there's much more to be said about that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right on.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		That's an intro.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We're also joined by the intrepid Laura Logan.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Abba.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Would you like to introduce yourself and what you do?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		I'm a journalist, and actually I am a South African, but I'm an American citizen now, and started as a journalist in South Africa 462 years ago.
		Okay.
		Sort of.
		I was 17 years old, 1988, before the internet, before cell phones, before email.
		Can any of you remember a time like that?
		No, you cannot.
		Okay.
		Grew up in South Africa, but worked as a journalist from age 17.
		I worked at ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN.
		I worked all over.
		I worked in print and radio more than 35 years as a journalist.
		Really good at getting canceled.
		I can get everybody to hate me.
		I'm an equal opportunity offender, and I don't give a shit.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, right on, thanks for hanging out.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We got producer Tate, who actually has traveled around Africa and has been to South Africa as well.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
		Yeah, I was there a few months ago, backpacked from Kenya to South Africa.
		Spent a considerable amount of time in South Africa.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Like your jersey.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I picked it up there.
		It was a good place to find one.
		Of course, Laura Logan's a legend, Ernst Roots, legend.
		I've followed him for a long time, so privileged to be here.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first question, the obvious one, is as it pertains to the farm killings, there's been a debate in the United States.
		Activist groups have called it a white genocide.
		The media has said it's a lie.
		Farmers are not being targeted.
		It's just normal killings and normal murders.
		I suppose the question is for all of y'all who've actually been there and for you, who actually lives there now and deals with this on a daily basis, is there any truth to these rumors and what is actually going on?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So, well, there is certainly truth to that.
		The term genocide has become somewhat of a controversial term because it's a technical term and it has a very particular definition.
		But we certainly do have a very serious problem in South Africa when it comes to genocidal rhetoric, politicians talking about genocide, chanting things like kill the boer, kill the farmer.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You're a boer, right?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Say again?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are you a boer?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		I'm an Afrikaner or a Boer, as you can say, yes.
		I grew up in the north of South Africa on a farm.
		I lived there for some time on a farm.
		I grew up in a community where there were many farm attacks and farm murders to the effect that people I know who are close to me, including my brother, have been attacked on farms and people I knew have been murdered on farms and some of them have been tortured.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are you allowed to have guns?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yes, although they are, it's not as easy as it is in America, but they are working very hard to take away your gun rights to get access to firearms.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So we have guns and it's very common in South Africa to see people walk with armed pistols by their side and so forth.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I got a question for everybody, I guess.
		Why is the crime so high?
		When did this, was it always this way?
		Was South Africa just from its inception just this high crime place where people are being raped, murdered, and you got to live in caged houses?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Well, that probably deserves a long answer, but it's not supposed to be like that.
		So when the New South Africa started, as it was called in the 90s, the former president F.W. de Klerk was asked at a press conference, how will you know if this New South Africa is a good idea or not?
		And he notoriously responded by saying, the crime statistics will show if it was a good idea or not.
		If there's a decrease in violent crime, then we did the right thing.
		And there was a decrease, and now it's picking up again.
		So the crime in the moment, there's about 27,000 murders in South Africa per year.
		And the murder rate in terms of the ratio is 45 people per 100,000 per year.
		Now, just for perspective, the global average is 6 per 100,000.
		And in many European countries, it's 1 per 100,000.
		So it's very high.
		And I think there are many reasons why there are such high crime levels.
		One is obviously poverty, but it's not sufficient to just say people commit murder and torture because they are poor.
		Another part of the dimension that isn't that often said, but I would say equally important, is that those in power in South Africa have actively encouraged a culture of violence throughout the years.
		Their political strategy was making the country ungovernable, encouraging violent riots and so forth.
		And I think the country is still suffering from that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Was there like an inflection point where murder just skyrocketed and went really high?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Or was it like a gradual increase over the years that it got worse and worse?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It skyrocketed in the 80s and 90s as a result of political violence, with a political transition in South Africa from the apartheid system to the new system.
		And then it went down, I guess, in the late 90s and then maybe the early 2000s, it started picking up again.
		And now it's just gradually increasing.
		So there's no sign that it's going to decrease.
		But then the part of people always talk about the murder rates, but the part of the equation that is not talking about enough is the rapes, like the sexual offenses.
		And you don't even know.
		South Africa is often called the rape capital of the world or the murder and rape capital of the world.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And the baby rape capital of the world.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yes.
		Yeah, exactly.
		And there's some religious connotations to that, you know, and some what they call muti murders.
		And so yes, it's just and then adding the dimension of gang-related violence and then, of course, adding the farm murders.
		It's just a very violent country and it's very sad.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You were backpacking through there.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Did you have to carry a gun?
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was kind of crazy because you're going through places like Nairobi, Tanzania, Malawi, like very desolate places where there's a lot of struggle.
		There's a lot of poverty, a lot of desperation.
		And I would tell people my plans, those people, the locals there, I'd be like, well, yeah, and I'm going to finish off in South Africa, like Johannesburg and Cape Town.
		And they would recoil in horror when I would tell them this.
		Like I'd be in the bush in Malawi.
		And they're like, oh, you're going to South Africa?
		What's wrong with you?
		So it's like, even in Africa, even elsewhere in the continent, South Africa has this, you know, grim reputation.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Now, it didn't have that before.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Yeah.
		Yeah.
		And so it was something I was aware of when I was traveling.
		I was pretty careful.
		I'd like to think I did my homework, but even then, I do think there was a bit of luck involved in not getting myself in too crazy of a situation.
		I did, like, would pay random people as bodyguards when I'd want to go into like the CBD in Johannesburg and stuff.
unidentified		But the CBD in Johannesburg is exceptionally dangerous.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		It was crazy.
		Well, I don't know if you can, like, if it's legal or not, but I just asked a guy.
		I was like, hey, is anybody there that you know?
		I had a friend in Johannesburg.
		I was like, do you know anybody that's like a gang was a gangbanger?
		Someone that like has a bad reputation was a good person now, so to speak.
		And he's like, I know a guy.
		He found me.
		He got like 6'5.
		I gave him like 100 bucks and he just took me around the Johannesburg CBD for like a few hours and everyone, no one would touch me.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I, it's crazy.
		I asked our good AI psychotic demon ChatGPT for some answers.
		I asked it about crime in South Africa and it says that murder is at 45 per 100,000 people.
		It's the fourth highest globally.
		And I then asked, was crime as bad during apartheid?
		No.
		Crime, especially violent crime like murder, was significantly lower during apartheid compared to post-apartheid South Africa.
		But the reasons are complex and often misunderstood, it says.
		Okay, well, I didn't ask it that.
		I then asked, you mentioned sexual violence.
		It says rape in South Africa is often perceived as a post-apartheid epidemic, but the truth is far more complex.
		While formal reporting increased sharply after 94, sexual violence has deep roots that stretch back into apartheid and even colonial times.
		Now, the interesting thing is, the argument that it's making about violent crime is it's saying South Africa just didn't report the violent crime largely in the black community, so it seems like rape was substantially less during apartheid.
		However, I then, of course, asked the very obvious question.
		Did the end of apartheid cause an increase in interracial violent crime?
		And the answer is yes.
		After the end of apartheid, interracial violent crime, particularly black on white, became more visible and politically sensitive.
		I like how they phrase it.
		But ultimately, although I didn't ask, it does state that for obvious reasons, the increase in crime that is perceived is that you had a developed nation and a largely segregated population, and the desegregation resulted in much more racial interaction, which dramatically increased crime against white people from the black community.
		It then goes on to add for seemingly no reason, which I didn't ask for, it says, but consider whites are not being genocide.
		This is false.
		Black on white crime, it's only partially true, and it's because you can see it, and no one is actually attacking white people for being white, which again is, this is the funny thing about these AIs is that I didn't ask it that.
		I just asked if interracial violent crime has increased.
		Yes, but, but, nobody asked you to get politically correct on this.
		I think it's fairly obvious to consider that if you have a segregated population and you desegregate, you're going to see interracial violent crime, and this is going to create a lot of the perceptions we see today.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's just that a couple things though.
		So South Africa's population has always been majority black, right?
		So there were, you know, under apartheid, roughly 5 million white people, 30 million black people.
		Then you had the Indian population in color.
		So the country, when you say segregated, it's not inaccurate, but it also doesn't reflect the reality of South Africa.
		There was always a very segregated society.
		I mean, a very integrated society, because just by the nature of it, you know, people may not have, you know, you may have had areas where we're under apartheid where black people had to live and white people lived here and the beaches were segregated, but there was still a lot of intermingling within the society just by the sheer numbers.
		And one of the things that happened is that the ANC under Nelson Mandela had a policy of liberation before education, liberation before everything else.
		So really in South Africa, you were never poor during the struggle because you were part of something that was noble.
		So your poverty was part of something that was a struggle, and it had an identity to it, and it had a purpose to it.
		And people were united in this common goal of creating justice and equality for all.
		So everything that happened in the home, you could never talk about domestic violence or rape because none of those things, everything was subjugated to this greater struggle that overwhelmed everything and provided some kind, you know, there was a feeling of real unity as people,
		in fact, people of both races actually worked towards This and so once the wall came down of apartheid, you know, South Africa teetered on the brink of all-out war for a very long time.
		I would go into those townships, I saw people who were necklaced, which was a form of killing, which is where they put a tire on you.
		It was really began with informants, people that they thought were betraying them and working with the South African police and so on.
		They would put a tire on you and burn you alive as a symbol of what they did to people who betrayed their own.
		And so, you know, I went into these areas of extreme violence.
		There was also a third force in South Africa, which was created by the South African government, which was designed to create violence between the tribes, the two main tribes, the Zulu and the Troza, so that they could make the argument that black people would never be able to govern themselves.
		And so there was a commission that was created to investigate the third force.
		Judge Richard Goldstone ultimately identified that, and this was the basis of the commission for truth and reconciliation that Archbishop Tudor created.
		And what all of this means is that you got a peaceful transition, but a peaceful transition that papered over the cracks.
		And some of that expressed itself in violence because literally overnight after the South African election, that nobility that people found, that unity that they found in their poverty, became just poverty.
		And people were left.
		And then the politicians started to steal everything.
		And the poverty, and what people did is they, over time, they've lost hope.
		And when you see that decline in hope, that is part of what is driving the violence and part of because there's never been structures put in place to heal those wounds in South Africa.
		Instead, Marxists slapped a label on it that said it's racism.
		And so now instead of there being real personal accountability, there's a get out of jail free card for everything and everyone.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Have all of you traveled around Africa in general?
		I know it's a very large continent, but the neighboring countries, which I imagine you've been to?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are there similar issues with the neighboring countries?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's very interesting.
		We spoke about this just before the interview.
		It really is the case that when you travel up from South Africa into Africa, the northern border is the Limpopo River.
		The Limpopo River borders between South Africa and Zimbabwe, for example.
		But when you cross the Limpopo River going up north, you immediately feel safer.
		Really?
		And I've had the exact same experience.
		We had a sort of road trip once up into through Botswana, Zambia, Malawi, back through Zimbabwe.
		And in each of those countries, including Zimbabwe, I felt safer than I do every day in South Africa.
		And you don't experience that, that you have to, you know, everywhere you go, you have to check your pockets or you have to look behind you, someone's going, might stab you or whatever.
		And so it was a sort of a personal experience, but I also observed it in speaking with people in those countries.
		Exactly the same story, like what you said.
		People say, like, I asked people in those countries, so are you going to South Africa?
		And many do.
		Many people immigrate downwards towards South Africa.
		And there's also xenophobic violence, so foreigners being attacked and killed.
		But the general sentiment I picked up in those countries was that they have this negative view of South Africa, and they think you have to be crazy to go to South Africa.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So there's actually, what is it, is it four nations that border South Africa to the north?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if you don't include Iswatini and Lesotho, which is sort of inside South Africa.
unidentified		Right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, for how do you present it?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Eswatini and Lesotho, how do you pronounce it?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Lesotho?
		Lesotho.
		Is crime similar in those areas that are seeming largely inside of South Africa?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's also high, but it's not as significant as in South Africa.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But those are effectively like South Africa.
		Lesotho is a mountain kingdom.
		Eswati was Swaziland.
		So the things that affect people in South Africa are really no different in those places.
		It's once you go north to Angola and other countries and Mozambique that it becomes different.
		But I would argue that it's worth considering that South Africa is in the grip of a Marxist takeover.
		Interesting.
		And that what's really fueling the violence in South Africa is the Marxist Communist Globalist Playbook, because that is where you see the real rupture.
		South Africa is critically important both strategically, look at where it's located, right?
		But look at it historically.
		Why does the open society have foundations outside of the United States of America?
		Where have they been for the longest?
		Where have they been most active?
		That's in South Africa.
		And why is that?
		If you look back at the, who settled South Africa and who was responsible for the trade there, when you go back in time, it leads you to 10 Downing Street and the Dutch East India Tea Company.
		And these are the same people, the Dutch East India Tea Company were the ships that took Darwin around the world.
		And the same people paid for Darwin's explorations and for him to create the theory of Darwinism are the same people that were heavily involved in trade out of South Africa.
		Where do the diamonds sit?
		They sit in the crown jewels.
		I heard that Elon Musk is in the Tower of London.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I heard that Elon Musk's dad has an emerald mine.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, but that it could be.
unidentified		No?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's what the left is accusing of.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They said that his dad has an emerald mine in South Africa.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		His dad bought one when Elon was like 15.
		I think it is.
		Official story.
unidentified		I don't know.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Emeralds are not big in South Africa.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		For these neighboring countries to the north, you mentioned you instantly feel safer.
		But is that true for all of them?
		You go to Namibia and you're just in a...
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of South Africans that have moved there, like wealthy South Africans.
		I stayed with a Boer family from Johannesburg.
		They lived in Francistown.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Botswana is great.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		The most dangerous one, I would say, is Zimbabwe historically.
unidentified		But then the north of Mozambique today, that's the infiltration of the Islamic.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yep, in the north of Africa.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's wild for me to, like, you know, looking at like Lesotho, how does a nation exist in such a place?
		I mean, it's landlocked.
		Is it effectively just under the control of South Africa as far as anyone's concerned?
unidentified		Not really.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's sort of people in South Africa just forget that Lesotho is there.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Until there's an remember there was the violence about 20 years ago?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		A friend of mine was shot when he was covering that.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Oh, wow.
		And recently, it was very funny in South Africa when President Trump spoke in, was it the State of the Union?
		And he mentioned Lesotho, and he said, there's this country, Lesotho, that no one has ever heard of.
		Why is USAID protecting the rights of Lesotho's to be gay or something like that?
		It was something like that that he mentioned.
		And it was very funny in South Africa because we all know about Lesotho, it's a good place to go on holiday.
		But it's sort of a mountain, as you mentioned.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's a kingdom.
		It's a tribal kingdom.
		And that's why it doesn't have any problem coexisting because it's really that tribe.
		It's not in conflict with the tribes around it.
		And people just respect those, they respect those boundaries, almost like a reservation, but with more rights, if you know what I mean?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is Maseru the biggest city?
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Maseru.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's the capital.
unidentified		Wow.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		It was set up as a protectorate by the British, right?
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		And then it just never integrated because no one ever felt the need to.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because it's always been peaceful.
		It's completely, peacefully coexists.
		But then there's occasional, you know, tribal uprisings and whatever internal conflict.
		Yeah.
		But it's pretty in Lesotho.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Poor, though.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Very poor.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The reason I asked this question about the neighboring countries is that one of the things that often comes up in social media is the conversation about like Liberia, for instance.
		Liberia is modeled off of the U.S. Constitution verbatim, or like identically.
		It's the U.S. that basically established it.
		And I think it was it, like Abraham Lincoln wanted to repatriate blacks, former black slaves back into Africa or something to that effect?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was actually freed men were a problem in the United States at the time.
		And so what happened is they needed to get rid of them because they were, because in the U.S., the politics of the day was that they didn't really know what to do with free men and they didn't want to give them the rights that they had earned.
		So they created Liberia as a colony, well not as a colony, but as a de facto colony to get rid of the freed slaves and say, look, we're going to give you your own country and your own land, get the hell out of here.
		And so it was really the children of freed slaves that were shipped off to Liberia.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Liberia is not doing too well these days.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's doing very badly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they've had some genocides and exterminations.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		They also had the worst Ebola epidemic.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		If you zoom in on Liberia, you'll notice a lot of the county names.
		Yeah, James Monroe.
		And it's like when the freed people...
		Yeah, the freed slaves came there and they just set up the same system that oppressed them in America.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, they were the descendants of free slaves, so they were free men.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Right, yeah.
unidentified		And there's a legal distinction.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do people outside of the United States generally refer to the Ivory Coast as Côte d'Ivoire or Harvard?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Cote d'Ivoire.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Divoir?
		Is that French?
		Most people refer to it.
		They call it that?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Cote d'Ivoire.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think most people say Ivory Coast, but Côte d'Ivoire is very common also.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I've only ever heard Ivory Coast.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I just thought it was interesting that Google decided to call it Côte d'Ivoire or whatever.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		You have Sierra Leone was like the British version of Liberia as well, where this up to freemen from British colonies would go there.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, so the reason I bring that up is online, the conversation will go into this racial direction of if Liberia has the American constitution and form of government, but has devolved this way, it must be race.
		But I ask you about these countries neighboring South Africa to the north.
		You say you're much, much safer, but have, I imagine, like the same ethnic composition, largely majority black.
		So there clearly is a political problem in South Africa that has resulted in this expansion and explosion of crime.
		I think you nailed them.
		You said it's the Marxist takeover.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It is.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What I end up seeing is these videos of largely Marxist ideas.
		These individuals are communists.
		They use the communist fist.
		And that is, I think, the easiest thing to notice when you compare these nations.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		And I'm happy you mentioned Liberia as an example, because you can have two countries with the exact same constitution, and one would be a great success and one would be a spectacular failure.
		And that's also the thing with South Africa.
		When the South African Constitution was adopted in 1996 and the transition happened in 1994, it was globally celebrated as now it's going to be a free country and so forth.
		And the constitution was hailed as people called it the most liberal, most democratic, most modern, most progressive constitution, all these buzzwords.
		But then the assumption was if you have a great constitution, you can just put it on a country and it would be a great country.
		But there are other factors that determine whether the country would be a success.
		And one of it is demographic makeup, not so much black or white, but just how homogenous is the country as opposed to how diverse is it.
		And a nation that is inhabited by a variety of nations naturally tends or leads to differences of opinion on matters of constitutionalism, how to interpret the constitution and so forth.
		That's one factor.
		Another factor is the fact that it's very big.
		It's a very big country, but it's very centralized.
		And then those in power in South Africa have been very actively...
		And that's exactly what they have been doing.
		And they have publicly said that they write policy documents and they would explain, in order for us to implement our communist agenda in South Africa, we need to create the perception that we are actually liberals.
		And it's all written down in their policy documents.
		And yes, it's undoubtedly a big Marxist experiment, but it's also, as Laura said, sort of an open society experiment.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		What makes you think, like, why did Liberia turn out the way that it did?
		Why is it failing?
		I mean, it has the same system that we have in the United States.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm at risk to answer because I don't live there, but there's a Kenyan philosopher, Ali Mazroui, who wrote about this, who said that he wrote about the differences between Africa and the West, and he was obviously on the side of Africa, but he was very concerned about Africa not developing.
		And one thing he mentioned was that Africa took the wrong lessons from the West in the sense that it took the consumerism, but it didn't take the entrepreneurial spirit from the West.
		Another concern he says is that what he's concerned about in Africa is that one of the big differences is people in the West see a problem and they want to fix it.
		And he says what he observes in Africa is people see a problem and then they live with it.
		And I think he mentioned the example of a roof that leaks.
		When you're in a house and your roof starts leaking, you can either fix it or you can put a bucket under the roof, under the leak.
		And he was sort of making the plea that don't put a bucket under the leak, fix the leak instead of just living with it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What's winter like in South Africa?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Great.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But do you get a lot of snow?
unidentified		No.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No snow in Lesotho, yes.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		We have wonderful winter.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		In Lesotho, you get in the mountains.
		Tim, one thing I want to say to you.
		So, you know, I live in Texas, and there's a lot of families that inherit ranches in Texas, that inherit wealth.
		And what you find in a lot of those families with inherited wealth is that people don't do that well because things, because they're given to them.
		So in a way, to me, Africa is a little bit like that.
		If you look at the Democratic Republic of Congo, they have the highest concentration of rare earth minerals of anywhere in the world.
		Yet, 80% of the population lives on less than a dollar a day.
		So Africa was blessed when it was created as being some of the richest soil.
		It is rich in so many ways.
		And as a result, it has been plundered.
		And when you look at countries like Nigeria, where the British went in and divided the country, where the country is divided, Muslim North, Christian, South, contrary to what you'll read online, the colonial powers often let those differences continue to exist because out of that conflict, it was easier to plunder resources.
		And as someone who covered many wars in Africa over the last three, going on four decades, what you will actually find in a lot of these wars, before the war is even over, Canadian companies, mining companies, British companies, American companies, French companies, Italian companies, they will be in there on the ground making their deals before anything is done.
		So what is driving a lot of these conflict is greed and control of natural resources.
		This whole war with the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party and the United States is playing out all across Africa, where China has gone in and under the belt and road program has taken over airports and harbors and they have brought cheap money in there and they have sold projects to African governments that they believe are in keeping with their stature, but which they neither need nor can afford.
		And when they default on those loans, China takes all that critical infrastructure.
		So you have that part of the Marxist takeover that's happening.
		And then just the other part of it is to add to what your Kenyan philosopher was saying, look at all of the organizations across the West and in this country, from USAID to World Economic, to the WWO, but beyond that, to all these individual organizations that say we're raising money for schools in Africa or for wells in Africa or for this.
		Show me one country in Africa.
		Show me one animal that's been saved.
		Show me one village where they no longer have a sanitation problem.
		Show me one country where the education is now no longer an issue because of the billions and billions of dollars that have been poured in.
		You can't, they don't exist.
		They absolutely don't exist.
		So what the West has done is create a system of aid that is indentured servitude.
		It keeps countries enslaved.
		Exactly.
		It doesn't reach the people.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is the liberal academic order.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's theft on a massive scale.
		So they'll take your tax dollars and they'll hold fundraisers and they'll hold big events in New York and they'll show you, they'll trot out the little black kids who look so cute on camera and they say we're saving them.
		But I've been to those places.
		I've worked in Malawi, Zambia, Mozambique, Lesotho, Swaziland, Burundi, Kenya, Uganda, I mean South Africa obviously, Zambia, Zimbabwe, I mean you name it and beyond all the way up to the north.
		I have never been to a village where you've had aid organizations that have been there for 10, 20, 30, 40, now 50 years where anyone is actually better off.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		And it traps them in a cycle of poverty because it disincentivizes work.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		You don't need to go out and do something because there's some Bill Gates Foundation is going to come and give you whatever you need.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But what they've also been doing is coming in and saying, oh, we'll help you with the farming, but you have to farm GMO seeds.
		And so, and then there, which is another form of indentured servitude because the seeds are not self-generating.
		And so these farmers are now 100% dependent on this organization, the Gates Foundation or Warren Buffett.
		And by the way, they bring in this highly sophisticated, mechanized digital farming and farming equipment in places that don't even have electricity.
		And so how is that supposed to be maintained and sustained?
		And they have relied on corruption and greed and ideology, Marxist ideology.
		It's much easier for you to say, okay, race is the problem.
		And if you look at it historically, Vladimir Lenin sent his emissaries all over the world to identify fissures in societies that could be exploited.
		In Algeria, it was Islam.
		In most of the world, it was race.
		In the United States, it was race.
		And so in South Africa, it was race.
		So that's why civil rights movements are so commonly associated with Marxism.
		And Nelson Mandela himself was a Marxist.
		And so was the ANC, a Marxist organization.
		Now the Electronic Freedom Frontier, Julius Mulema, who's made the, you know, he's now famous for saying, kill the farmer, kill the poor.
		He didn't create that saying.
		But look what that was about.
		It's an ANC saying, which was the ruling party.
		But what is it really in its origins?
		It is a saying that is meant to divide the society.
		Because South Africans, I have to say, two things are really important.
		The vast majority of people who suffer on a daily basis from the violent crime are black people, which doesn't mean there isn't a genocide, but it is important to acknowledge that.
		And the other thing is to acknowledge, again, that in spite of the segregation, South Africa is a very integrated society.
		Just because out of the sheer numbers, and there is a great love between the people, in spite of their best efforts to divide people, there is an enormous amount of love and goodwill among all races in South Africa.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The reason why I asked about winter is that, you know, when I look at the planet, it seems southern enough relative to the northern hemisphere to get a normal winter.
		And I was just looking up Why it doesn't, and it's because of ocean currents and elevation relative to the northern hemisphere.
		The Mediterranean is a little bit warm despite them being relatively northern.
		But there's a theory I wonder if you all have heard of.
		You mentioned that this philosophy where if you're facing a problem, you can either solve it or live with it.
		And one of the theories that I read is that cultures that had harsh winters, they built their society around the need to constantly, you're in a constant state of detriment and panic.
		In that even if you have a big pile of food, you're feeling like you don't have enough.
		And this comes from if you were to survive a winter in the north, if you said, you know what, we got enough food for the summer, winter would come, you die.
		So the only civilizations that persist were those that said, we have to have more than we need.
		This is more likely to say the problem has to be fixed, otherwise we die tomorrow.
		But in places like the Mediterranean and in places like Africa where it's warm and there's year-round fishing and there's year-round fruit, you don't have to have that because you don't have the harsh winter where you're going to struggle to survive.
		So one theory as to why Liberia fails is that this culture that they're handed, it's like, here's an American constitution.
		They say, yeah, but so what?
		There's going to be food, there's going to be fish.
		Why should we struggle and pressure ourselves when we could just relax?
unidentified		Yeah.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So there's a story towards the end of the Soviet Union when Gorbachev, at the time of the Paris strike-up, they had some conversations about how to maintain socialism.
		And one of his advisors said, what we need in Russia is Swedish socialism.
		And then Gorbachev said, but where are we going to get all the Swedes?
		And it's sort of the equivalent of saying, so we're just going to make Liberia an American country.
		But then the question is, where are we going to get all the Americans?
		Because it's not American.
		It's not an American country, which means that the outcomes would be different because of cultural dynamics.
		And culture is a complicated thing and it's a controversial thing also to discuss.
		And I think in the South African context, it's very difficult to try to analyze what is happening there without considering cultural dynamics.
		And there are different reasons why different cultures reach different conclusions.
		And this certainly could be one of them, is weather conditions and so forth.
		But I would say in the African context, there are other threats or risks, such as just wildlife.
		Not today as much, but I mean years ago, centuries ago, like you were constantly under risk of being eaten by a lion or trampled by an elephant or something.
		So there were other risks.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Or a hippo.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Or a hippo, yeah, hippos.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Crocodile in the water.
unidentified		Yeah.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		And mosquitoes, then of course.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Malaria.
		But also the other thing is economies of scale.
		I don't think you can underestimate the significance of that.
		Because in the United States, things that are just very easy to get and cheap are much harder to get in South Africa because economies of scale make them very difficult to produce competitively.
		So that's a big factor.
		And then the other thing is that we talked about this, Ernst, on the way over here, is having a constitution and a democracy without a republic is doomed to fail because it's really the republic that is in itself the checks and balances of the democracy that ensure the equality that you're talking about, that people get equal opportunities.
		And Liberia doesn't, it's not a federal system.
		It doesn't have states that have state rights.
		I don't think you can overestimate the impact that states' rights have in balancing out federal power in the United States.
		And I've never been anywhere else in the world, and I've been to many places.
		I've never been anywhere that has a system like the United States where there is such a strong both political and legal and cultural identity for the different regions while still having this shared identity.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is the Marxist goal just to destroy?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is it just demons that are like, let's ruin everything and burn down civilization?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		No, no, you go ahead.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, he said yes.
unidentified		Yeah.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's kind of like what you saw with ChatGBT when you asked it a very basic question about South Africa, and then it responds like full-blown defense.
		And you get this in the press and the West all the time about South Africa, is it's an issue that uniquely animates the left in the West, is the South Africa issue.
		And it's kind of like what you talked about because what's at stake for the order that exists in America and the UK, Europe at large, is if South Africa in this current iteration fails, then that's a huge indictment of their system.
		Exactly.
		Because they went from a European-dominated system to it, and they're trying to implement this liberal system into a group that's not used to it, quite frankly.
		So if this fails, I mean, it's a huge blow to the liberal world order, so to speak.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So I want to add to that.
		So South Africa became South Africa as we know it today in 1994, which was just shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
		And the conclusion then was communism had been defeated and will be globally replaced by liberal democracy.
		And then Francis Fukuyama famously wrote the end of history, saying that, you know, that's going to be the future.
		We're now at the end point of human development.
		We're all going to standardize on.
		We're all going to be liberals.
		And it was at the height of this hype when the South African Constitution was written with the assumption that actually we're all just the same and we're all just going to become the same.
		And that's why it's in a very important way.
		I think you mentioned the open society right at the beginning.
		South Africa is a good example of the sort of an open society experiment.
		It was at the hype of this theory that it was constituted.
		And I have a sort of anecdote on that.
		The first time I came to America was in 2012, and I spoke at an event at the United Nations in New York.
		I participated in a conference.
		And someone sort of pulled me to the side and said that it was someone who worked at the UN, a pretty senior guy.
		And he said to me, look, I see what you're trying to do, but don't do it.
		He said to me, it's not going to work.
		And I said, what do you mean?
		And he said that some of us can see that the cracks are showing in South Africa, but you have to understand that for us, South Africa is the example that should be followed by the world in terms of ideology, in terms of the political system, in terms of the structure.
		So it's not in our interest.
		We don't want to talk about the problems in South Africa because that's sort of ideologically where we want to end up with, what we want to end up with.
		and now, in as far as it's failing, it creates a problem.
		And he was sort of weirdly on my side trying to give some advice that it's not going to work.
		But now the failure is up to the point where you can't deny it anymore.
		And I think that's partly why it's so controversial to talk about the failure in South Africa, because it shouldn't fail, because theoretically it's good, but it's not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm so over this, you know, as Ted was bringing up, the media's defensive reaction to honest questions or how weird it was that ChatGPT decided to inject huge essays on things I didn't ask about.
		It does this on issues of institutional importance when the institutions want.
		I don't care if the corporate press wants to insult me and claim I'm a conspiracy theorist because I ask a question or report on things that are actually happening in that country.
		So when we look at the political structures of this country, there's this in the United States, I don't know where it comes from.
		I'm sure people have ideas.
		But the issue of apartheid, for instance, the idea of segregation in the United States is bad.
		It's abhorrent.
		We fought.
		We put an end to it.
		We had the Civil Rights Act, all of these good things, which I'm grateful for because my family actually went through all of that.
		But when apartheid ends, let me start over.
		I'll put it this way.
		I met a young woman 20 years ago in Chicago who had fled South Africa.
		And why would you flee your country?
		What's going on in South Africa?
		And she said, because of the rapes, because you're more likely to be raped than learn how to read.
		And so this is that those are the stats.
		At least at the time, I don't know if it's changed.
		And so she fled the country, found work somewhere else and got out.
		And I also saw the film Stander with Tom Jane, which is awesome and I recommend it, whether you care about South Africa or not.
		It's an amazing movie.
		He's a bank robber.
		It's like Dillinger.
		And it's true.
		Dramatized, of course.
		And so I started to read about this stuff.
		And I'm not, this is, this is mid-2000s internet.
		This is not weird, you know, whatever the media wants to call conspiracy theory, great replacement, garbage nonsense.
		I literally was like, I want to read about what happened.
		And I started reading about baby rape, how there are people who believe that if you have AIDS, you can transfer it to a baby by infecting them with the disease.
		And I started asking myself, how does this happen?
		And then, of course, I read about the expansion of crime following the end of apartheid.
		And I say, okay, what like, it's not something I've followed tremendously or anything.
		But later in the years, when the story starts to become more prominent in the United States, largely with people pushing the idea of white genocide or whatever they wanted to call it, which I know you say is contentious and not accurate to a certain degree, the media immediately starts getting defensive and saying, no, you can't talk about this.
		So it makes me then start to wonder why.
		I mean, there's clearly something going on that has people talking, but why is the immediate reaction from everyone in the press, shut your mouth?
		And that, I think, creates a bigger and bigger interest in the story.
		And it makes people feel like there is an intentional action among world governments to silence those who might bring up the fact that maybe their plans aren't working the way they expected them to, or maybe the plans aren't working the way they expected them to, and they're horrifying.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		So when you said, is the goal of the Marxists just to, you know, burn it all to the ground kind of thing, the goal is control, right?
		And you see that playing out in exactly what you're talking about.
		You're not allowed to ask those questions because we want to control the narrative.
		We want to control what you think and how you act, and we want to have absolute control over that.
		That's what technology is moving towards.
		And if you look at what does the evidence show you, well, in South Africa, for example, there was an ambassador there, his name was Patrice Gaspard.
		And when the whole thing of land invasions first raised its ugly head with Seoul Ramaposa, I met with farmers who all said they were talking to the government and they let them know, if you're going to take the land, if you're going to take the farms, we're not going to plant.
		So even though Seoul had signed the law, was considering signing the law the first time around, Sil Ramaposa the president, he hadn't done it yet.
		So who was in the media at that time in South Africa telling people and encouraging the appropriation of land, who's calling for the redress of racial injustice and so on and so on?
		Well, it was Patrice Gaspard.
		And who was he?
		He was the U.S. ambassador to South Africa, whose role diplomatically is not to weigh in in a conversation like that.
		Well, what happened when Obama lost to Trump?
		I mean, when he left office at the end of his second term, sorry, when he stepped down?
		Obama, his ambassador was recalled.
		What happened to Patrice Gaspard?
		He was then put in as president of the Open Society Foundations.
		So his reward, and he was from Haiti, actually.
		He's a Haitian.
		So here you have a guy who is pushing for a policy in South Africa that the South African government, I'm going to steal from Ernst Yahere's statistic, by their own statistics, 90% of commercial farms that are repatriated become, they fail.
		First they fail and then they become squatter camps.
		I saw this in Zimbabwe when the land was taken.
		And what happens is that the farms are never given, if the issue is race, how come the farms are never given to black farmers?
		Instead, they're given to cronies of the government and people that destroy them, people that either don't know how or cannot afford to farm them.
		So in South Africa, what's different here is that there are 30,000 commercial farmers who feed not just South Africa, but people all across southern Africa.
		So the very people who are saying you have to address the poverty and inequality in South Africa by taking back the farms know that it's the vast majority of black people will starve because they're without the commercial farms.
		They know this.
		They did this in Zimbabwe.
		The reason Ernst said if you go beyond Zimbabwe it gets safer is because this is still the legacy decades later of the land expropriations without compensation in Zimbabwe is that the food supply in Zimbabwe is still a massive issue.
		Starvation and poverty and inflation have absolutely destroyed a country that was once called the breadbasket of Africa that used to feed all of these other countries.
		And so, and then you mentioned HIV, Tim.
		So it's very interesting because I sat in a market once in Zimbabwe having a robust disagreement with local traders there who said that HIV was created by the United States to get rid of black people.
		And at the time, I said, you guys are crazy.
		Oh, but let's take a little closer look at HIV because I also stood in graveyards in South Africa on a Sunday night when they were digging the graves for the babies that would die of HIV that week.
		And every week they did this all across South Africa in every graveyard.
		And it was hundreds, just rows, right?
		Hundreds and hundreds of tiny little graves as far as the eye could see.
		And what you would also see was that there were little, instead of a gravestone, there were little pockets of plastic vials.
		And those were the monuments that were made by the women who lost their children to HIV and were not allowed to talk about it because the president at the time, Tabo Mbeki, said that HIV wasn't real.
		And when you actually look at HIV, who was responsible for HIV?
		We were told it was one of these zoonotic diseases that, oh, this is going to sound familiar after COVID, that went from animals to humans.
		Actually, what I learned recently from several scientists is that animals cannot get HIV.
		The HIV that exists in humans cannot exist in animals.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, the argument is, I mean, cats have FIV, which is similar, different.
		The argument is mutations happen.
		And if there is a, like, so bird flu, for instance, what they say is humans can't, it's really difficult for humans to get it has to mutate in such a way that a human could get it.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But who does that mutation?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Dana function research in Wuhan?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		It's engineered by human beings.
		And if you look at it, who was the guy?
		So remdisivir has been widely condemned for killing people, right?
		But it was sold during COVID as the number one medication to help people with COVID.
		Except remdisivir poisoned people and they died of liver failure.
		So what happened with HIV?
		AZT was presented as the panacea.
		With AZT, this is how you would survive HIV.
		But what happened is AZT mimicked the progression of AIDS and people were actually dying from AZT, not HIV.
		And who was the person who was behind AZT?
		Dr. Anthony Fauci.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What's interesting, too, is they said that COVID affected Asians more because of the ACE2 receptors.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They were more prone to getting the lung infections.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yes, because these diseases, when they're gaining function, what did COVID-19 mean?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Anyone who's ever worked in biological warfare knew instantly that that was the 19th iteration of the gain of function research of the manipulation of the disease.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, the funny thing is it was first publicly widespread acknowledgement was in 2020.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And everyone assumes that COVID-19 just meant 2019.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But it didn't.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, nobody takes it that way.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		What it meant is that it was on its 19th iteration of engineering.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why would they publicly announce that?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why would they say that?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because it worked, because people don't know.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because it didn't matter anyway.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't matter.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And also because they have information dominance.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like WD-40.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have information dominance.
		Until the rise of independent media and until Elon Musk took over X, they had what's called an information warfare and fifth generation warfare, total information dominance.
		And so that's why they hardly cover their tracks a lot of the time.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I do find one of the scariest things, because we've talked about this quite a bit since the gain of function research story had gotten so much prominence.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They absolutely can, and by they I mean governments, corporations, biomedical research, can craft viruses that target people based on race.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So you're talking about HIV and the conspiracy, the theory that it was targeting black people.
		Then you have COVID, which, and I'm not, this is not an insinuation or a theory.
		I'm literally saying this is a fact.
		COVID affects Asians more than other races.
		That's what they reported because of the ACE2 receptors in the lungs.
		That being a fact means you could absolutely engineer viruses that can target and cause massive damage to somebody based on their race.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Listen, we were talking about Liberia, okay?
		I went to Liberia during the height of the worst, deadliest Ebola epidemic in history.
		I think we can all agree that nobody wants to die from Ebola.
		It's when the capillaries of your blood cells melt and you bleed from every orifice.
		It is described as one of the most horrific deaths that anyone can ever experience.
		I was in a frontline treatment center where people were dying every day.
		I was in the cemetery where they were being buried and I was speaking to the gravediggers because they were all dying and yet they were still doing that incredible job.
		And I had a scientist with me, a hemorrhagic scientist from the United States who worked for the Department of Defense.
		And one of the things when I was talking to the gravediggers, they wanted to know, and in Liberia they speak with this pidgin English, right?
		So they say to me, they don't say, how are you?
		They say, how debadi.
		So they say, where did Ebola come from?
		One question we have for you, where debola come from?
		So I went to the scientist and I said, can you come talk to these guys?
		Because I said that it comes from the bats.
		And they're like, what do you mean it comes from the bats?
		So I said, look, come talk to the scientist.
		So he came over and he spoke to them.
		And he said, it's basically from people eating the bats.
		But interestingly, no one's ever found the Ebola virus in bats.
		What they found is the Marburg virus, which is, guess what?
		The cousin of Ebola, which is traced to a cave right up in the mountains, this massive bat cave.
		So the gravediggers say to the scientist, they say, okay, so how did Ebola come from the bats?
		And he says, well, when you eat them, and they look at him, they think about this.
		This one guy starts to smile.
		He says, and he says, mister, he says, my father ate the bats.
		He says, yes.
		He says, and my grandfather ate the bats.
		And my grandfather, before him, he ate the bat.
		And he said, and they know the bola.
		In other words, we've been living here for centuries, mother.
		Okay?
		And we've been eating bats as long as we've been here.
		And we've never seen this.
		This is not a natural thing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, they said that COVID came from eating bats, too.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is that all they have?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're like, I don't know, I just say bats.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Of course, because that's how they blame everything.
		That's where they blame everything.
		Zoonotic diseases always come from the bats.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And bats are associated with demons, vampires, and witches and all that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And they're just flying around.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Ozzy never got sick from.
unidentified		Ozzy Osborne never got sick from bats.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's dead.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		That's not the best example.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Well, many years later.
		I'm just curious about the question you asked, just on South Africa.
		Laura, I'd love to hear your view because you're sort of with one foot in South Africa and with one in America, and you know both very well.
		What is your explanation As to why the American media is so antagonistic to the topic of South Africa?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because they are completely and utterly captured by the race narrative, the Marxist race narrative.
		And if it fails, they can't.
		So the reason when people react poorly when questioned is because their argument is baseless.
		I mean, anyone who knows that they're telling the truth is not going to— And so what do we want with the truth?
		We want the truth to be seen.
		I mean, everybody wants the truth to be known, right?
		Everybody seeks, people seek the truth instinctively.
		And what happens is when you create a narrative that is built on lies, you don't want that to be questioned because it starts to crumble.
		And then you have to keep propping it up with other lies.
		And so, you know, when I travel the United States, when I travel all across the world, people are profoundly united in many things.
		I'm not going to say everybody's the same because I've interviewed mothers who've told me that they're proud that they're bearing their child who just blew themselves up in an ideological struggle and they want their other children to die the same way.
		Okay, I don't know any mother like that in South Africa or America.
		So I'm not going to tell you we're all the same.
		We're not all the same.
		But there is an extraordinary amount.
		What unites us is much more powerful to me in my experience than anything that divides us.
		And when you have to apply this many resources, whether it's time, money, information, whatever, to divide people, that tells you that the natural state is that we're united.
		But within our unity, if you go back to the Lebanese philosopher, Khalil Qibran, what does he say that we stand like, because we stand in love?
		Like the pillars of the temple.
		All the pillars are needed to keep the temple up, but the pillars stand apart.
		So we've been taught the Marxist playbook, which is a fascist playbook, by the way, because they're just two sides of the same coin, is that we have to hate each other, right?
		And that we have to focus on all of these divisions because they know that as united, when people are united, we're stronger than anything.
		Just the average taxpayer, no matter how poor you might be, when you unite the spending power of the American taxpayer, it dwarfs any of the spending power of the millionaires and the billionaires.
		So when you see that power of the people, you know how important it is to divide the people.
		What brought Nelson Mandela to power in South Africa was unity.
		Archbishop Desmond Tutu led people in chants in those stadiums where Peter Mocabre and Julius Malemo wanted to chant, kill the farmer, kill the boer.
		What did he chant?
		Black and white, together, we shall overcome.
		And that was what brings shifts, real shifts and real power shifts.
		So for these people, they cannot have you ask questions of substance because everything is built on a lie.
		Climate, all those climate programs, all built on lies.
		The whole race narrative, all built on lies.
		Does that mean there's no racism?
		Does that mean there's no difference?
		No.
		But what do they do?
		They want to take race, they want to take differences, and they want to create them, turn them into problems which can never ever be solved.
		So the color of your skin, you can't change it.
		Therefore, you can never solve this problem.
		Unbiased racism, it's unconscious.
		If you're not conscious of it, you can't fix it.
		And if you look in all of these places, they create issues.
		Like as a man, you're going to have masculine instincts.
		They now teach you that that masculine instinct is evil.
		It's a problem, can never be solved.
		CO2.
		We create CO2 as we breathe out.
		It's critical for life on Earth.
		You will never ever So once you start to recognize the tactics, it becomes very, very simple.
		It's easy.
		You don't have to be a genius to see the same tactics playing out over and over again.
		Transgenderism, it's the same thing.
		This is an attack on us as we were created to break down communication, to isolate us so that we can be controlled.
		Why do they have to kill the food supply?
		Because they have to control what we eat.
		We have to control our movements.
		And of course they react like this about race because at the end of the day, people don't really care.
		But we do gravitate towards our own.
		We do like to be with people who understand us.
		When you marry someone, what is the biggest thing that tears people apart?
		My wife doesn't get me.
		She doesn't understand me.
		Well, you know, you can, if you're overseas and you bump into somebody from, you know, the United States, you might not have talked to that person back home.
		But when you're there, you have this common shared history of being American.
	And so that brings you together.
	Well, look all over America.
	New York, the Chinese gravitated towards each other in Chinatown, in Little Italy.
	I mean, we instinctively gravitate towards our own.
	So it's okay to do that.
	But they've made those things that are natural and instinctive in us.
	They've made those war crimes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's divide and conquer.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If you have a bunch of small communities that are at odds with each other, then they're going to be too busy fighting each other to worry about you.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		As long as you're getting your tax money, who cares?
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that's like you were talking about with Marxism.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the core of left-wing ideology is a destruction of hierarchy and a destruction of beauty, like you saw in the Soviet Union, where they would drain lakes and burn forests purely because it was natural, hierarchical, and beautiful.
unidentified		Religious also.
unidentified		Yeah.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		And so it's kind of these things like with human diversity across the globe.
		You see these beautiful cultures in all these countries.
		I mean, and then there's this attempt to just flatten everybody and turn everybody into the same and basically into a consumer at the end of the day.
		And it's a horrible thing.
		And it's Marxist in nature.
		And you could see it with the press's reaction to the Boer refugees to the United States.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we love refugees as long as they're not white.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And it's like, and it's just this really pernacious thing because they just clearly, in that moment, just hated them by nature of them being white.
		And then the funny thing was the South African press for years has been like, they should just go back to Europe.
		They should just go get out of here.
		And then they're like, okay.
		And they're like, hey, you can't leave.
unidentified		Hey, what?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Let's go back to Europe or go to America.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		And then when people do, they're angry.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		You can't do that.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so just as an example, the Boer and Ernst is a Boer, have been, the Dutch went to South Africa in the 1600s, right?
		So that's centuries.
		How many centuries?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Almost four centuries ago.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Almost four centuries.
		So in northern Iraq, in ancient Mesopotamia, if you actually look, the first, the Assyrians have converted to Christianity in the first century AD.
		The first mosque wasn't built there until 600 years later.
		Six centuries later.
		But people today look at the north of Iraq and they say, well, that's Islamic territory.
		Okay, it belongs to them.
		So maybe in 200 years, Ernst, if there are any Afrikaners left, maybe then you'll be allowed to say that you're an African.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they do this thing with specific, it's just the way that it works.
		The thing with like white people is they try to like discount their claim to anywhere.
		So if they've just lived somewhere, like my favorite example is when I live in New York City with Bushwick.
		It's this neighborhood that's being gentrified pretty rapidly.
		And people will act like it's been this like Caribbean stronghold for thousands of years.
		Like with the way they speak about it, when like a white girl from Ohio moves in.
		And then you look at the data in like the 1960s, it was all like Italians and whatever.
		So it's like, it seems like the only time that they actually contest the claim of a people to a group is when it's white people.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's absolutely.
		And so what we often hear in South Africa, and I guess in some other African countries, is that Africa is black people's continent.
		It's the continent for black people.
		And then people would applaud when you say that.
		But just imagine if you apply that to other continents.
		If you said, no, Europe is the continent for white people.
		And if you apply that same argument, that would be if you are black and you are in Europe, you must remember that you are a visitor and you should have fewer rights than the people who stay there.
		I mean, obviously that's racist.
		And they wouldn't apply that logic to other races or to other continents.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, Victor Davis Hansen, I spent time with him at his home in Fresno, and he's been there for generations.
		His families are descendants of Vikings, and he still lives on the land that his parents and his, I mean, he literally lives in the bedroom where his, I don't know, his grandmother or his grandfather died and his parents were born and one of his parents was born and things like that.
		So his family has literally been there from the beginning of this country.
		And when he was growing up there, it was around, I think, around 90% white.
		And now it's more than 90% Hispanic.
		But then it was not diverse.
		And now even though it's 95% Hispanic, now it's diverse.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because as long as it's not white, then you're diverse, you're okay.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, it's like you looked at America, there was diversity.
		You had Southerners, you had New Englanders, kind of the Puritans, you had West Coast, you had the Midwest.
		So it's like that's diversity still, but it's like only diversity only counts if you like look different, I suppose.
		That's kind of the narrative now.
		And it's really upsetting.
		And then also it's just this pursuit of diversity for diversity's sake.
		And it seems like the goal really is to just destroy all identity that you have and turn you into just a global consumer citizen.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's exactly it.
		So this diversity that diversity is supposed to be a good thing.
		Diversity is supposed to mean recognize people for when there are differences between people, recognize that, respect that, learn from each other, cooperate.
		But that's not what diversity means today.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And what's actually happening?
		I went on a cruise and they had a stop-off in the Bahamas.
		And so I thought, okay, you know, great to Bahamas.
		Well, you know, I'll get off the boat and, you know, everyone, you get off, you get a few hours to go walk around and see what's going on.
		And I was like, this will be great.
		Get some like local, you know, I guess you can call it endemic cuisine or something.
		Yeah, no, it was Starbucks, Hard Rock Cafe, Gucci, McDonald's.
		And I was just like, why did I even get off the boat?
		I have this outside my house already.
		I was in Egypt.
		McDonald's across the street.
		It is actually terrifying.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		That Rumstein's song, We're All Living in America.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		The great homogenization.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, so I've been to many places and I've actually had, you know, local fare or whatever.
		I love, Sweden's got M, I think it's called M burger.
		I haven't been there in years, but it was awesome.
		And they have like a fried cheese, like deep, like huli cheese or whatever it's called.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Hallumi.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Hallumi.
		There you go.
		Japan, of course.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's big in South Africa, by the way.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Hallumi cheese on everything.
unidentified		Oh, good cheese.
unidentified		I miss it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's fried on a sandwich with lettuce, tomato.
		But tourist locations everywhere has become American corporate pockets.
		And it makes it much more difficult to try and find real food.
		I went to Thailand and I asked my journalist buddy who went there with, who had lived there for years, I said, let's get real Thai food.
		And he was like, you don't actually mean Thai food, do you?
		I said, yes, I actually mean Thai food.
		I don't mean the sugary, fatty, garbage, American version of Thai food.
		And you know what we ended up eating?
		Steamed chicken and white rice.
		And he says, congratulations, this is what people eat in the world.
		This is the real food here.
		And in America, we have this sugary, fatty, rainbow version of all these ethnic foods, but it's just Americanized corporate food.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Hey, I'm from Texas.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's the capital of Tex-Mex.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, people say, let's get Mexican food.
		They actually mean Tex-Mex.
		You go to Mexico and it's like, what are they eating?
		Steak and rice?
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		I think you're hitting on a really important crisis that's going to face us that no one's really talking about is this kind of great homogenization.
		It's not even really American culture.
		It's like a corporate American culture.
		And the entire world is starting to look like this.
		Everyone's dressing the same.
		Everyone's speaking the same.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's not just, in fairness, it's not just American corporations.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Like multinational.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		It's an English.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's a global, this is a global cult.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Right.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And it has a global power structure, and it has factions in every part of the world.
		I know a guy who spent two and a half years training underground to infiltrate the global cult, as he calls it, at the UN.
		And his faction that he was assigned to by the U.S. government was the Islamic faction.
		So whereas we think, okay, post-9-11, we're at war with, you know, with, as they call it, radical Islam.
		And, well, as we have named it.
		And in essence, that whole movement is as much about controlling Islamic people as socialism is a system of social control.
		And so is Marxism and so on.
		So this is happening in every single way, not just in what you eat and what you wear, but also in the United States, it's happening with healthcare.
		You know, you've got a couple of things like Methodist and other corporations that are buying up all the rural hospitals.
		You've got companies that are buying up all the HVAC systems.
		Whereas if you want to get repair done in your city, you call these different companies and you get exactly the same rates.
		Why?
		Because those little mom-and-pop shops, those little small businesses, they're all gone.
		And it's the same thing with like suddenly everyone's drinking almonds and almond milk and thinks that there's a health revolution.
		But what actually happened is almonds have to be farmed to scale.
		And so if you look across California, all those family-owned farms and the small farms, they're all being bought up so that you can have these massive, massive farms.
		And then there's a huge lobbying effort.
		And then suddenly everyone thinks that they're drinking almond milk or eating almond butter because it's better for you.
		And we really have no idea if it's better for us.
		Like oat milk, oat milk doesn't do anything for you.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		How much milk and oat?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
		Ask somebody, yeah, how much milk is in oats.
		Ask anyone with a horse.
		They'll tell you they feed them oats.
		It's literally junk food.
		Yeah, it's just parched.
		That's it.
		It has nothing in it.
		And this idea that we're all going to suddenly start eating oats and we're all going to be healthier, that's a lie.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I love that meme where it's like, you don't live in a tiny house with overnight oats.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You're a peasant in a hut with gruel for breakfast.
unidentified		Literally.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		I mean, yeah, you're seeing this destruction of like all things beautiful.
		I mean, it kind of reminds me of like there is this struggle that you guys have as Afrikaners is the only way that your culture sticks together is by staying in South Africa.
		Because if you come to America after one generation, you're an American.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm happy you say that because it's an important point is this refugee thing has been good in the sense that it is really like taking a spotlight and just shining a light on the crisis and it provides opportunities for diplomatic pressure and so forth.
		But if the only thing that America does with regard to South Africa is refugees, it would actually make things worse.
		Partly because some people will leave, as we can see, will leave South Africa, especially people who have gone through trauma, who have been in a farm attack or who have lost their job or something like that.
		And you can see that already in South Africa, the people who live in higher numbers or who want to live in higher numbers are not the Afrikaners.
		It's more the white English speaking community.
		And it's because the Afrikaners, I mean, you mentioned it, I mean, I'm 10th generation in Africa.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But Ernst, explain as well, because the Afrikaners don't actually exist outside of South Africa.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So we're indigenous to South Africa.
		We're not indigenous to any other country.
		We became a people in South Africa.
		We called ourselves the Afrikaners, and our language is Afrikaans.
		So everything, and like we have this very rich treasure chest of Afrikaans literature and folk songs and philosophy.
		And that's the funny thing.
		All of it is about how much we love South Africa.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And born of the soil.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes.
unidentified		Right?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Born of the soil of South Africa because Afrikaans isn't spoken anywhere else.
		It's not a language anywhere else in the world.
		It was the original Dutch, right?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It sort of evolved from Dutch into a unique language with other influences.
		So yes, so there's this, and we've always been a small nation, and there's this thing about small nations, and the risk of small nations is that the threat is always bigger.
		Any threat is existential.
		But the benefit...
		I'm not sure how many there are worldwide, but there are about 2.7 million in South Africa.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And there's not more than a million or so outside.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let's say it would be less than 5 million.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		So there's less than 5 million Afrikaners that exist on the planet.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		But the thing is, if you're a small nation, then you take threats also much more seriously.
		And we've had many threats over the centuries, and we've had many wars.
		We've had the two wars with the British.
		We had wars with the Zulus.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		The first concentration camps in the world were the British.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		The first concentration camps were in the Anglo-Boer War, yes.
		And so forth, and so forth.
		And so we've had all these hardships in South Africa.
		And I can tell you stories from, literally, I can tell you stories from what my great-great-grandfather four or five generations ago did when they were in this war.
		And it's just, and it's sort of this feeling that if you just back up and leave, then you leave all of this behind.
		And so we need a solution in South Africa.
		It's not.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		So if I can be a little bit challenging here, because from the other side of it, what would you say would be, where do the Afrikaners bear responsibility for the situation in South Africa in terms of, I mean, we as South Africans were under a system that was of racial division, which discriminated heavily against black people.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And that is a contributing factor, right?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So that's a good question.
		I think a lesser known part of the story at the moment is just how much Afrikaners and white people in general in South Africa have done just out of their own will for upliftment and development and so forth.
		So there was a study when the ANC started with these race laws, with the affirmative action and the BEE, and they said you need to have quota systems and you need to have transformation policies in the workplace as they define it.
		There was a study that came out that said that predominantly white-owned companies at the time, before these laws were implemented, more than 90% of them already had such policies in place to say, how can we help like upcoming young black entrepreneurs?
		How can we support them?
		And the farmers especially do that.
		And I know there's this stereotype of the farmers in South Africa being racist and all of that, but especially the commercial farmers, like almost all of them are involved with helping black upcoming farmers and having these cooperational programs and so forth.
		So I think they already do a lot.
		But I think from a more, like you could say, policy perspective, there's a difference between restitution and redistribution.
		And restitution is a good thing.
		So if there's a piece of land, for example, that was owned by a black community and that was dispossessed from them, someone came, the government or whoever came and took that land from them 70 years ago or whatever, then restitution is good to say, well, let's correct this injustice.
		Let's give them their land back.
		But what happens now is literally more than 90% of people who have filed land claims in South Africa have said, actually, they don't want the land.
		If they can choose, they would rather opt for financial compensation.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But will you acknowledge, though, the racial part and the racism of the past?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		That has to be done, right?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the problem is it has to be done, But we need to differentiate between when are we actually correcting a historical injustice as opposed to are we just punishing white people because they are white.
		So if an example would be you go to South Africa, let's say me, let's say I decide I want to be a farmer, which I obviously can't be, and I buy a piece of land.
		You cannot make the argument that my ownership of that land is illegitimate simply because I'm white, because I actually bought it.
		I didn't steal it from anyone.
		I bought it with my own money.
		But there were cases where people were dispossessed of their land, and that should be corrected.
		That's restitution.
		But simply saying white ownership is illegitimate because the owner is white, regardless of how we acquired that land, that's very problematic.
		If you acquire land through legitimate means, that should be recognized.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		I think what some people want is just an acknowledge of the pain of the past, where people were subjected to a lot of brutality because of the color of their skin.
		And the Afrikaners were part of that.
		I mean, Hendrik Favoot was the architect of apartheid as a political system, and he was an Afrikaner.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
		I think you're right.
		What makes that difficult today in the climate in which we are is this thing about apologizing in this very heavily loaded political context.
		Apologizing is seen as an admission of guilt and a justification for punishment.
unidentified		Yes.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		And so, and it's especially in countries like.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And an excuse for theft and corruption.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes.
		And then it becomes, exactly.
		And so an example of the Dutch prime minister, I think two years ago, after significant pressure, he made this public apology for slavery.
		And then the response to that was, okay, now you need to prove that you are really sorry.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		And you need to give us money.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So if you don't follow up your apology by giving us your stuff, then you don't really mean it.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's one of the chosen successors to Klaus Schwab at the World Economic Forum.
		Rutte is one of the worst.
		And he has decimated the farming and agricultural industries in Holland.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		We saw the apology struggle sessions during 2020, during the riots, and everyone was like, well, if you just apologize and rectify, maybe it'll stop.
		And then it just kept getting worse and worse and worse.
		And it's like, yes, it is true.
		Like it is true that we need to rectify for these past injustice.
		But at the same time, it's like they don't actually want an apology.
		They want you to bend the knee.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I feel like the idea of rectifying past injustice is an endless cycle that never ends because injustice is everyone's face some injustice no matter what, going back every generation for the existence of all humanity.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Well, especially when you're when you're making your two ancestors, they're trying to settle that debt.
		That's crazy to me because it's like, had nothing to do with me, had nothing to do with you.
		There's an effect, but there's no way to rectify this.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's no way to, you know, there's a viral video from like 10 years ago.
		I think it's called like this land is my land, where it shows, it's basically one song sung by one person.
		But the visual is different armies with different flags taking over the Holy Land back and forth, claiming that this is their land and it's owed to them.
		Even a big component right now of like the Israel-Palestine conflict is Israelis and Jews saying that historically it was their land.
		It was Israel or Judea.
		And then Islam took it over.
		But now the left argues that those people there who are Palestinians are the original inhabitants and you're taking it back.
		Everyone's claiming their birthright or their ancestral right to this land.
		It's never going to end.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		The land is never going to be available.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But there's only one truth, though.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		That's the problem with all.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		How far back do you go?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, well, I'll give you an example.
		So I went to a village in, I was reporting for 60 minutes on the Christians in northern Iraq, which was ancient Mesopotamia.
		And I went to a village where Jesus, it was just outside of Mosul when ISIS had taken, was still in control, and they had ravaged all of the surrounding countryside, and they had just lost this one village.
		And we went in there, and the history was that Jesus had walked the streets of this village.
		And I wanted to know if that was true.
		So one of the ways to try to verify that was to figure out, first of all, is the village old enough for Jesus to have walked there?
		So I asked people, how old is the village?
		When was the village built?
		And, you know, this is Iraq, right?
		So you get, and concept of time is very different depending on who you speak to.
		So I'm asking 20 people.
		I'm getting 20 different answers and I'm ready to blow my brains out.
		So I'm like, okay, how can I figure this out?
		So I say, you know what?
		Why don't you take me?
		I say, what is the oldest building in the village?
		And then there's a big conversation.
		I say, take me to the oldest building in the village.
		So where do you think they took me?
		Honestly, I was expecting to go to the mosque, but that's not where I went.
		You know where I went?
		The synagogue.
unidentified		Oh, wow.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And they took me to the synagogue.
		And not only was the synagogue the oldest building in the village, but it was the oldest by centuries.
		And then I said, okay, I'm on a roll here.
		And it's written in the stone, right?
		So it's not like they're making it up.
		And then these are Iraqi Muslims who are telling me this.
		So I say, okay, what's the next oldest building?
		And they took me then to the Assyrian church.
		And there was a service which we attended.
		So I was like, man, where is it?
		The mosque?
		You know?
		I mean, I lived in Iraq for five years.
		This was after I had left and I had gone back on another trip.
		And in my head, in my mind, this territory was cemented as Islamic ground.
		And so they were like, oh, yeah, we can take you to the mosque.
		Well, the first mosque wasn't built in that village until more than 600 years after the church.
		So for six centuries, there's this whole idea that you can't figure out who really owns the land is nonsense.
		Because for six centuries, there were no Muslims in there, there at all.
		None.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And what do we do?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do we give the land back to the Christians?
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So then we give America back to the Native Americans, divvy up the land based on the nations to stop there.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, the idea, what do we do?
		You know, that's like sort of the idea that a solution is imposed from the outside.
		I mean, the good thing about being a journalist is I don't have to fix anything.
		I just have to point out how broken everything is and whose fault it is.
		But what I can tell you is that it starts, for me as a journalist, it starts with the truth.
		Like, let's acknowledge the truth.
		Let's not pretend that the Temple Mount was not the Temple Mount before Al-Aqsa Mosque.
		Al-Aqsa Mosque came later.
		So it's interesting that you raise this because if you actually look at Islam, the philosophy in the Quran is that we are all Muslim.
		Our DNA is Muslim, which is a little tricky when you look at the fact that when, how many years after Judaism and after Christianity, the Ottoman Empire and Islam really came along.
		It's like, so, okay, so what were we for all those years before the Quran was written?
		Well, we were all Muslim somehow.
		So that's really, you know, in Islam, critical thinking is not encouraged.
		It's very much that you need to accept the tenets of the Quran and the orders of Sharia, and you need to live by that, and you need to not question it.
		In fact, that's one of the mock differences with Christianity, is that we have free will.
		So I would say that it begins with the truth.
		And I'm not saying that you give everything back to the original, but I just want to show you that there's another extension to this argument of who is the land.
		I sat with Zulu tribesmen in Zululand, actually in KwaZulu-Natel, and we were doing a story for 60 minutes on saving the white rhino from extinction.
		And one of the solutions from the conservationists is that you have to connect all this land because the animals used to be able to roam and now they can't roam because of fences and all the rest of it.
		And so when I was talking to these guys, you know, one of the things they asked me is, why do white people like these animals so much?
		And I was like, well, for all these reasons, and why don't you like them?
		And they're like, sure, we like them.
		But I mean, we lived with rhinos forever.
		We've been here forever.
		Like, this guy had never been two hours to the coast where I was born, had never seen the ocean, had never been north to Johannesburg, one of the centers of the country, had never been outside of KwaZulu.
		And so when we went through this conversation, I explained the whole thing with the land and the animals and everything.
		And they looked at me and they said, okay, so this land belonged to the animals.
		And I said, well, I guess that's sort of the thinking.
		And they said, so what land belongs to us?
		Because we've also been here from the beginning.
		We've also never been anywhere else.
		We also don't have anywhere else to go.
		Why doesn't it belong to us?
		Why do we have no claim to the land as humans?
		And that was very interesting for me and very revealing because you can see that argument playing out all over the world that we as humans are an aberration.
		Everything we've done, look in California, more than a million acres of the Central Valley have been returned to its natural state before being destroyed by man.
		What's the natural state of the Central Valley?
		Because the breadbasket, one of the breadbaskets of the entire world is the Central Valley of California, some of the richest, most fertile agricultural soil.
		Well, under its natural state, it's a desert.
		So why do you think now, in those Hispanic towns all across the Central Valley, you have higher poverty rates than Appalachia, which historically has been the highest poverty in the United States?
		And no one cares about it, right?
		But why returning the land to its natural state before man is not always a better idea?
		In fact, what it's done is caused rivers to dry up across Texas, and you can find environmental disasters all across the United States because of the interference of conservationists who argue that the land has to go back to its natural state.
		So this idea that we as people have no claim to the land and everything that we do is destructive, that's another lie.
		That's profoundly anti-human.
		And what they're going to do once they're done with the whites in South Africa, because it's not really about race, they don't care that black people are going to starve to death.
		They don't care about any of that.
		Because once they're done with, okay, the whites are now the target, then it's going to be these people are the target.
		And then it's going to be those people are the target.
		Because at its core, all of these philosophies are profoundly anti-human.
		They don't sell you Marxism because they love the people.
		There's no Marxist country on earth where the people have been better off.
		It's always been a small group of people that have absolute control who have, by the way, millions have starved in Marxist-communist countries.
		So it's the same thing.
		What you see underneath all of this, the depopulation agenda and so on, is that these people have no regard or respect for the average person.
		And the elites in Washington look down on them.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I mean, like, Tim, like what you were saying is, I mean, the problem with giving like longevity credence for when you're trying to determine who owns what land, like that's a very liberal argument to make, as in they've been here the longest, they get the land.
		Like land ownership ultimately should belong to those who have cultivated the land, who have created, who have built something out of it.
		Because if you do just kind of retreat back to like trying to see who had the land first, you end up like the Balkans where they're arguing over who invented baklava and they go to war over it.
		Like we, that's not a that's not a worthwhile way to determine who owns land.
		Yeah, exactly.
		Because if we do that as Americans, then we're out of a country.
		Because, I mean, we got to get it back.
		And so I see that discourse in South Africa a lot.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		But also in the South African context, what comes to the fore is also the notion that what does it mean to own land?
		And what does land ownership mean?
		And how can you say that you are the owner of a piece of land?
		So part of the argument for the Afrikaners when the Great Track happened and our ancestors moved into the interior of South Africa, they sent out a group which was known as the Commission Track.
		So it's basically scouts that they sent up to say, let's find empty land where we can settle.
		And they came back and they said they found villages in some places, they found Zulus and so forth.
		But they also found places that were just skeletons because of the Mufekane slaughter.
		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		Just before the Great Trek, where it was the biggest genocide in the history of South Africa and it's not well known.
		But they also found vast areas of land where there was just no one.
		And then they would go and they would settle and establish towns there.
		And then years later, someone would come and say, but this is our land.
		And then the question is, how is it your land?
		And then the answer would be something like, but my great-great-grandfather walked across this mountain.
		And the argument is because he walked across this mountain, that means it's his land or it was their land.
		And so, and maybe that is sort of a particular cultural conception of what constitutes ownership.
		The Western idea of ownership is like title deeds.
		It's very formally defined.
		And if you build settlements, but different communities and different nations can have different views on when could you actually argue that you are the owner.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that's why I think, that's why for Afrikaners, I think trying to go to the longevity argument puts you guys on the back foot already because they're going to say, well, someone walked across this mountain a thousand years ago.
		And like the thing I see, this happens a lot online, is Afrikaners will walk people through the history of who settled where, who settled when.
		But people don't really, they already have an answer in their head.
		So they don't really care.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's very well documented, the history, the settlement pattern history of settlement.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		So when you're like, when you are trying to justify your claim to the land, I think that'll fall on deaf ears.
		I think you have to really point to the cultivation aspect, like, okay, yes, but we built this, we built something here, and like I said, and cultivate it.
		And I think that's really important to emphasize when justifying the claim to the land.
		Because I think the longevity thing, like, well, it is 100% emphatically true.
		That falls on deaf ears.
		People aren't really, they'll cope a way out of it and come up with a reason why.
		Well, actually, I sneezed in this land a thousand years ago.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Here's a layer beyond that, okay?
		So if you actually look at the doctrine of the United Nations, when it was founded, it was the UN, it was the Temple of Understanding, which was based on a cellular religion.
		So what do anarchists believe?
		They believe in the cellular religion, which is essentially paganism, where every cell, every living cell is equal.
		So land and animals and humans, because we're all cellular organisms, we're all equal.
		And that's why you'll see them say that to own land is slavery.
		Because every form of ownership, if you own animals, agriculture is bad, because in owning animals, that is a form of slavery.
		And in owning land, you are now enslaving the land.
		Because if all living cellular organisms are equal, we don't have rights to ownership.
		And so that's the extension of the Marxist platform, which is an extension of the godless platform, because in the cellular religion, there is no God, and where else is there no God?
		It's in paganism.
		And what do we hear over and over again today is organized religion is bad, God doesn't exist, and spirituality comes from where?
		It comes from the mountains and the earth and the environment and the climate.
		And so you start to see how all of these things actually intersect, which is why I say that the significance of the Open Society Foundation's role in South Africa and that ideology cannot, you literally cannot talk about that enough because it's the part that people don't see and they want to say this is just about race and now you're being negative about South Africa.
		You're going to destroy foreign investment.
		You're going to destroy the image.
		South Africa is an extraordinarily rich, extraordinarily beautiful place.
		It really is.
		And in spite of the violence, there's an amazing amount of goodwill.
		There's joy.
		There's incredible music.
		Don't forget that, you know, heart transplants were pioneered in South Africa by Dr. Chris Barnard, working, by the way, with his gardener at the university.
		There was a black gardener, a guy who used to look after the gardens at the university.
		And he would, when Chris was working late, he would bring him in and he taught him everything that he knew and they worked together and had an amazing friendship.
		So there are incredible stories throughout South Africa and incredible examples that you can give of the richness and the beauty of this place.
		And the people who want to control it absolutely do want to destroy it.
		And those people are destroying sovereignty all over the world.
		And they're destroying humanity all over the world.
		They're horrible, evil people.
		And it's, I mean, for me, I'm not taking a knee.
		I'm not apologizing.
		I'll take a knee before God, and that's it.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		All cells are equal, but some are more equal than others.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Don't say it too loudly.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Well, like when I'm, when I was in South Africa, I road tripped from Cape Town all the way up through Kimberley and just stopped at a lot of the small towns.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		The Garden Route.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		The Garden Route.
		And then I went to Beaufort West and Kareo as well.
		And the Karoo.
		And there was an eerily kind of, there was a similarity to America in a lot of ways with the way things were laid out and the ways the cities were built.
		But I've heard a lot of people, I think you've even said this, is that South Africa in a lot of ways is kind of a portal into what America could look like in a couple of decades.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to hear maybe more on that because I think there are two reasons for that why we say so South Africa, America should look at South Africa not so much as a country that has to catch up, but much rather as a country where America could end up.
		It sounds very dramatic, but there are two reasons why I think it's important to point out.
		The one is many countries in the West, especially are trying to implement the policies that have been implemented in South Africa for some time.
unidentified		So South Africa has had BEE for a few decades and it's you need to explain that's black economic empowerment.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Black economic environment.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Elon's getting cooked by.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		You have to give it to someone who's not white.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's the South African version of DEI.
		So South Africa has had DEI on the books for some time, and we can already see what the consequences of that is.
		It doesn't uplift the so-called targeted community.
		And so the country is largely, it's not largely, the country is suffering tremendously as a result of these laws and policies that have been implemented that many others are trying to follow.
		And it links back to that example I mentioned earlier about the guy at the UN who said, we can't criticize South Africa because we want to follow the South African example.
		And now if we say it's not working, we can't follow that example.
		So that's the one reason.
		And the other reason is more optimistic is under these circumstances, where we've just discovered we can't vote the problem away.
		We can't fix it through the government.
		So we need to find some other way.
		And so what especially the Afrikaners have done in the last few decades is to say the only solution we can see is through institutions, like community institutions, building our own schools, building our own universities, developing our own institutions.
		And that could, an institution could be many things.
		It could be a neighborhood watch.
		It could be a social club.
		And so people accuse us of developing a parallel state.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's Irania you're talking about, right?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Irania is one example of that.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And Irania does not help.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Can you explain what Irania is?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So Irania is a cultural, it's a community in the Northern Cape, I think close, not far from Kimberley.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's sort of an Afrikaner cultural community that they're trying to develop into a city.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		That's only for white people.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's an Afrikaner, they don't have a whites-only policy.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, because they told me I wasn't welcome there.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Like I couldn't live there being an English person.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you definitely can't live and work there as a black person.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		But like they were pretty emphatic.
		That's like even like you have to be an Afrikaner-speaking Afrikaner.
		They're like, I wouldn't even be welcome.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Is that legally allowed?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's private property.
		So it's private-owned land.
		to stay there you need to buy you basically buy shares in it's like a co-op like we have yeah but but I think that's misleading to put it that way.
		It's not a whites project.
		It's not a white project.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's an Afrikaner cultural project.
unidentified		Yeah.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's just the obvious, it's hard because, you know, that's the obvious thing that plays into it, right?
		But as an English-speaking white South African, I could I buy shares there?
		So you have to be African.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they told me, I was like, I was out of luck.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that's fine.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		But it's not.
		So look, I mean, I'm not their spokesperson, but I've heard them say that, can a black person buy property in Urania?
		And the answer that they usually give is theoretically yes.
		But because firstly, it's not about race.
		The question is, are you committed to the promotion of Afrikaner culture?
		And are you committed to this project of developing this town into one where sort of Afrikaner culture could flourish?
		And so theoretically, yes, but they haven't seen a black person coming forth to say, I want to live here because I want to help you build your culture.
		So it's a bit, you should actually have them on your show, and it would be a very interesting conversation.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Well, I noticed when I was in Cape Town, a lot of English South Africans, I don't know, disdain is not the right word, but they just felt a huge gap between the way their worldview is and with Afrikaner.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's an elitist mindset.
		That's exactly what it is.
		And they do.
		They look down on the farmers and the Boers and the Afrikaners and Natal, which is KwaZulu-Natal, where I was born and raised.
		And the Cape, the Western Cape, those were the provinces that were really...
		That's when the British settlers came.
		And so it's the descendants of really English-speaking South Africans, white South Africans and Afrikaner-speaking.
		So, yeah, I mean, the English-speaking South Africans did kind of, they do have that kind of mindset where they're superior to the Afrikaners, which is very similar to the United States, where, you know, people in the cities look down on people from the countryside, right?
		Because a lot of the Afrikaners are rural and are the backbone of the rural commercial farms and communities and everything.
		So, yeah, there was definitely an elitist mindset.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		There's an interesting thing that people have been debating why is this the case.
		This sort of a phenomenon is most English, white English people in South Africa also speak Afrikaans or understand it.
		Not all, but most, and most Afrikaans people also speak English.
		But you would never or almost never find an Afrikaans person and an English person speaking with each other in Afrikaans.
		The conversation, even though both understand both languages, the conversation would always be in English.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, and there was also a political dimension to that that factors in just a little bit, which is that under apartheid, one of the things the South African government did was insist that black schools would be, black kids would learn in Afrikaans.
		And so that was one of the ways, one of the reasons that the ANC spawned the United Democratic Front, and that's why they were burning down schools.
		So, you know, as a white person, you'd say, well, why would you burn down your school?
		But black people recognized that English was a language of the world and that to really take their place among nations, that it was important to speak English.
		And they felt that they were being marginalized by being forced to learn in Afrikaans.
		And so they rose up and protested against that.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		The dynamic I saw when I was there with English South Africans, it reminds me a lot of like you were touching on with the city versus rural.
		Like a great example is in Colorado.
		They had a referendum to release, like, I think it was some sort of wolf back into the public.
		And the city of Denver voted, let's do it.
		That sounds great.
		And every farmer's like, no, don't let this pass.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's going to kill all my animals.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And I remember, I kind of felt like I saw the same thing in South Africa with a lot of the urban English South Africans were like, yes, this is great.
		This is going to be great for everyone.
		And then the Afrikaners were like a lot of the farmers and out on the outskirts and kind of had more skin in the game.
		They were like, please, no, this is going to be a train wreck.
		And it was a really interesting kind of dispensation.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		People in the cities who never have to worry about where their food comes from.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		They don't have to kill the bull.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, or even on, even on elements of like, because then like when you're in, when you're in Cape Town and you're in some of these neighborhoods, I mean, these are like nicer than neighborhoods you have in America.
		Like when you're in like Camps Bay and stuff, it's beautiful.
		I know, I was sitting there, I was looking at prices.
		I was like, oh, I can never live here.
		This is crazy.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Island Dedno, one of them.
		Little hidden gems there.
		I've always dreamed of living there.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		But people that live there, I don't think they really understand what the reality is in the rest of South Africa because that's the way they behave is like it's totally fine.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		No, it's the same white liberal thing that you get everywhere.
		It's not that they don't understand the reality.
		It's that by blaming it on the Afrikaners, they can shift the responsibility.
		It's these racist white Afrikaners.
		It's not us.
		We're better than that.
		And then that helps you live with your white guilt, right?
		Because now you can justify the fact that you have a nice house and you live differently and you can sit around the dinner table and say, oh, isn't it terrible that, you know, so much of the wealth is still in the hands of white people and so much of the land is still in the hands of white people and that disproportionately, if you look at management and companies, white people have more jobs, higher-level jobs than black people.
		Isn't it terrible?
		But then you say, okay, well, I think you should quit your job and you should give them your house.
		They don't know.
		It's okay for the farmers to give up their land because also these people have no concept really.
		They often have no concept of what it is to run a farm.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They think food comes from the grocery store.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		From Whole Foods or Trader Joe's?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		In South Africa, it's Woolworths.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I've literally asked these people, where do you, like, it was an issue during COVID where there was a milk shortage, and I said, where do you think milk comes from?
		And I got a response on X. They were like, the grocery store.
		And I said, where does the grocery store get it?
		And they said, what are you talking about?
		And it's like these people literally do not function.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		But that's a global thing.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		This new war on farming, that farming is somehow bad and evil.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		In the Netherlands.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because it's about control of the food supply.
		What happens in any socialist, Marxist, communist state is that people starve to death Because the government takes over control of the food supply and they use food to control people, which is another reason South Africa is so strategically important in this fight.
		Because if you look at it globally in terms of global supply chains, that's what they've been doing ever since COVID, they've been attacking global supply chains.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		And this new thing that, you know, we shouldn't eat meat anymore.
		It should be, what's it, fabricated meat?
		What's the word?
		Yeah.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Mystery.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's impossible meat or beyond meat or mystery.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Beyond, we've never been in the meat.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Which is a bunch of chemical crap.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's that video where I can't remember who it was.
		They said the lone star tick could help solve the problem.
		It's a tick that if it bites you, you'll become allergic to beef.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		That's another thing they can engineer.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And some people believe that it was engineered.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, I don't know.
		You can believe whatever you want, I guess.
		Apparently, there's something in the tick's saliva that is similar to a beef enzyme or something.
		You'll build an immune response to the tick, and then if you eat beef, your body will have a similar allergic reaction to the beef.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
unidentified		Yep.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		We need to lock Joe Rogan away.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		We can't let that happen, though.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Did you see this?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		I just saw it in the news, there's this company in Germany that's developing cockroaches for warfare.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm out.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		If I'm not going up against a nuclear cockroach, that's the end of me.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		We're cooked.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		That's the end.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		And they were talking then, sort of half joking, half being serious, that maybe next they will look at mosquitoes.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		How can they use mosquitoes?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But they already have looked at mosquitoes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Bill Gates has talked about releasing mosquitoes as vaccines.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but these are, okay, these are not just things that people talk about.
		If you really look at the history of this, where does a lot of this get done in the United States?
		At Fort Dietrich in Maryland.
		And what were the programs that they continued?
		Were the programs of the Nazis?
		That's why they don't want you to talk about the Nazis when it comes to COVID.
		Because a lot of these biological warfare programs, we took over from the Nazis and continued at Fort Dietrich in Maryland on U.S. soil.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I just saw a very funny Babylon Beast sketch where a progressive feminist goes back in time to kill Hitler.
		And then before she does, he asks her why.
		And then every time she says that she's, you know, what their plans are, he agrees with her.
		And then, you know, basically she comes to realize that she's liked Hitler all along.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's fabulous because it's true.
		Because what does Nazi stand for?
		The National Socialist Party.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Workers' Party.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Workers' Party.
		That's what it was always socialist in origin.
		That's why it's just a bunch of fascists fighting for control, just like you have different factions within Islam fighting for control.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but that wasn't real socialism.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, just like they tell you about the Quran.
		They say the same thing.
		Oh, yeah.
		Saudi Arabia.
		You say, but women don't fare very well in the Quran.
		Oh, no, that's not real Islam.
		Okay, so which is the real Islam?
		Is it Saudi Arabia or is it Iran or is it Afghanistan?
		Because yeah.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		The real one is my one.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Communism's never been tried once, apparently.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the real communism's never been tried.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		I say if you've tried that many times to implement the system and failed, then maybe we should give up.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Who was it?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There was some woman from Al Jazeera where she was like, you know, just because socialism didn't work one time doesn't mean you give up.
		Just like cooking, you have to try again if the recipe isn't working.
		And then someone responded with, oops, burn the souffle.
		And it's an image of the killing fields.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was in Cuba maybe two, three years ago.
		And it was a fascinating experience.
		Just not so much as a fun holiday, but just as a place where you can just experience what it means.
		And I deliberately went out, I was part of a tour group, and I asked questions everywhere I went.
		And I was like the annoying guy with the questions.
		And one of the greatest things I've ever heard was on the very last day, we were taking a bus back to Avana to fly back.
		And they were just telling us how wonderful Cuba is because everyone works for the government there.
		And so, for example, no, no, it's easy.
		You can use Amazon.
		You have to send your package to Madrid.
		And then you have to arrange for it to be sent, stuff like that.
		And there were people on the streets, like beggars, and then they would say unemployment is 1%.
		And I asked them, so, but who are all these people who are begging for money?
		And they said, no, no, those people are begging for a hobby.
		But the best was on the last day, we were on the bus on the way back, and this tour guide, obviously, who works for the government, spoke with us about how they also have some problems in Cuba, like the economy.
		And then she spoke about socialism, you know, which is great, and communism.
		And so I asked, but so maybe you should try to sort of, don't you see the link between the pursuit of communism and the economic problems?
		And then her words were, in Cuba, communism is great.
		We just need to figure out how to deal with the economy.
unidentified		It's exactly that.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you know how in the United States there's this romantic vision of Cuba.
		You see all the old cars from the 50s and everything is so cool.
		And, you know, they have all the doctors and the Cuban music is so cool.
		And everything Cuban is cool.
		I went and did a series of reports for CBS News.
		I went all over Cuba.
		I went down to Hemingway's bar.
		I saw where he lived and did all that stuff.
		I did this story on the Harley-Davidson Club of Cuba, of Havana.
		Okay, so it was inside this guy's backyard.
		There's a Harley-Davidson surrounded by chickens and everything.
		And they have to manufacture.
		Oh, the Cubans are so industrious because they can manufacture the parts because they can't bring them in.
		And of course, we went for a ride on the Harley with the head of the Harley-Davidson Club.
		And we broke down like five times until we had to give up.
		And then I had to call for my producer to come because up at the side of the road because that's the glamour.
		That's the Hollywood version versus the reality.
		You go, oh yeah, there's beautiful restaurants in Cuba.
		Take your own toilet paper.
unidentified		Right?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because you go to the bathroom and there is no toilet paper.
unidentified		Literally.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Cutlery.
		Oh, they would say there's no salt.
		So sorry, there's no salt today.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's no this, there's no that, there's no that.
		And then also what nobody talks about is generationally when there's no private ownership of land.
		So, you know, what happens in these apartments is you go in and you have to live with your parents.
		And then you get married and you have kids.
		And where do they, they have to either live with their parents or whoever they marry, their parents.
		And so what you end up with is in these apartments is people sleeping in every single room.
		So the living room has a bed against the wall that you pull down.
		So you pull the table down to eat and then you put the table up and then when it's bedtime, you pull the bed down.
		And this is in every room.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I just wanted to, for those that aren't familiar with the killing fields, I wonder if there are many people who just heard us all laugh about how shocking it was, but I want to read this couple paragraphs for you so you can understand.
		Sites in Cambodia, where collectively more than 1.3 million people were killed and buried by the Communist Party of Kampuchea during the Khmer Rouge rule from 75 to 79, immediately after the Cambodian Civil War.
		The mass killings were part of a broad state-sponsored genocide.
		Basically, ethnic Vietnamese, Thai, Chinese, Cham, along with Cambodian Christians and Buddhist monks, were the demographic targets of persecution.
		As a result, Pol Pot was described as a genocidal tyrant, and it wasn't until Vietnam invaded and put an end to this that did the genocide actually stop.
		And to this day, there are still landmines all over the place where they have volunteer groups trying to clear it out because of what the communists had done.
		So, you know, the more you know, communism is learning.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		I'm more about communists, the less I like.
unidentified		Yeah.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		But still, Paul Pot was a little leager when it comes to communism and genocidal actions.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		The big leaders were led and stopped.
unidentified		Oh, right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Did Mao kill?
		I think that people said Mao has killed more people than any other person in history.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		He's like upwards of 50 million.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Except for Fauci.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		What she was talking about, Ernst, I think a lot of people kind of want to hear, because I experienced this firsthand.
		I find it so foreign.
		The living arrangement in South Africa, as far as like having a mini fortress with gates everywhere.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So I live in a place where you need to do a biometric scan to go in.
		Yeah, seriously.
		And there's security, private security.
		And there's like big walls around.
		I'm fortunate enough to be able to live in what we call security estates, which is very common in South Africa.
		Many people can't afford it or can't live there.
		It's a world of community with big walls all around, with electric fences on top of the walls.
		And then there would be guards, private security inside and outside.
		And to go in and out, some places you have to scan your fingerprint.
		Some places the security would have to check manually.
		Where I live, you have to do a biometric scan.
unidentified		Oh, God.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		It's like an airport.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And you've got secure, you've got, you sleep in cages.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So where I live, fortunately, that's not necessary, but it's very true.
		You mentioned this earlier, especially on the farms.
		It's uncommon for people not to live the way you described it, with fences inside the house, these trilly-door security gates.
		So typically you would find one in the hallway that goes to the room.
		So there would be...
		Then there would usually be some form of laser securities in the garden.
		Like if you walk in the garden, it would trigger an alarm system linked to, of course, to armed response that automatically private security.
		And then, of course, the door, there would be alarms on the door.
		If you open the door, it triggers an alarm.
		And then inside, there would also be an alarm system.
		So if you walk in the house, it triggers an alarm.
		And then there would be windows.
		You can't have windows like these ones.
		It's always like these burglar guards everywhere.
		and then typically inside the house also.
		There's usually like the living area and then like the hallway that goes to the living room, to the sleeping area.
		And there would also be...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Have anyone...
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		There's been some of that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I thought that was going to be...
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		No, there was a case called the State versus Van Vik.
		It was a well-known court case in South Africa with a guy who did like, he had repeat people coming in and breaking in like every night at the same place on his farm.
		And then he basically did that, but with a shotgun.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So like they tripped it and then it blasted it.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but then he put up a big sign and he says, it said, there's a shotgun.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		If you climb through this hole, the shotgun is going to kill you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And they did it anyway?
unidentified		Yep.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		And then he killed someone by doing that.
		And then there was a big court case.
		Is this murder or isn't it?
		And the court eventually found that it's not murder.
unidentified		Wow.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		But there was a South African guy who put flamethrowers all down the side of his car.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the side of his cars, yes.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because people will come up to you to hijack you.
		Do you remember that one?
		That was years ago.
		They just engulfed the whole car and everything around it in flames.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		There are crazy such stories.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So another story is people digging trenches around the farm.
unidentified		There you go.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is how they live in South Africa.
unidentified		South Africa's car thieves.
unidentified		It looks like a James Bond movie, but the inventor of the blaster system, Charles Fruy, believes he's found a way to deal with carjackers.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		He said they're digging trenches.
unidentified		You can hear the accent on the dashboard.
		A red light will appear and it will show that the system is now armed and ready for activation.
		Underneath here we have the foot switch.
		The system will function for as long as you keep it down.
		And just quickly to explain how it works, when this foot switch is pressed, two things happen.
		One, a 14,000 volt spark would appear here in this nozzle.
		And then you have these four jets here shooting out gas.
		Liquid gas from the gas ball in the middle.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		I need to get one of those.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Now is that murder?
unidentified		That probably would be and a ball of flame will shoot out on both sides of the vehicle, incapacitating the hijackers immediately.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Incapacitating himself.
unidentified		Provided the driver's acting in self-defense, as depicted in this mock-up.
unidentified		About 25 vehicles so far have the blaster, but no one's yet tested the system for real.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that would work.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't seem like a good idea, no.
unidentified		When you said they're digging trenches, yeah, so there are farms in South Africa.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They call those moats.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, exactly.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Farms in South Africa have moats or trenches three meters wide and three meters deep.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Put alligators in them.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		So that people, it has to be long enough so that you can't jump over and people can still cross in somewhere.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		They put ladders or whatever.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		So you laugh, but my husband built trenches on our place in Texas.
unidentified		Oh, wow.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you can put cactus in there.
		You can put whatever.
		And they're not that wide.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What are they called?
		Pungey sticks?
		Is that what they're called?
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Oh, in Vietnam, where they'd fall on them?
		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		Yeah, people would like poop on these sticks.
		And then when you'd fall on it, you get like a bunch of diseases.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, pungy sticks.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wow.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		yeah, those kind of things work.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's true.
		Well, it was funny because when I was in South Africa, I would like talk to kids, and I would be like, Yeah, you can just walk up and knock on people's doors in America.
		And they're like, What?
		No, and I'm like, Yeah, there's like no we used to sleep with our doors open, unlocked.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's not that long ago growing up there that you could do that kind of thing.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Now you have flamethrowers and moats, and it's like everyone is loving an alligator alcatraz in South Africa.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's but it's it's it's it's quite scary.
		There's some footage also of like security footage, because that's many of these films you would find that is security cameras recording all the time.
		Before I moved to where I live now, I had that.
		I had cameras all around my house.
		And then when I was, especially at night, I would put it up on the screen so you could, every time you could see what's happening all around the house.
		And it's just.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Well, and now imagine if you live in a township, right, in a shack.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		And you're living on top of everybody, and there's no cameras and there's no security.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		That's where the rapes are so, and the murders is.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		The rapes are murders, and there's an unconscionable amount of violence.
		And what the South African government does very well is it avoids having that conversation at all.
		So, I mean, and just because the vast majority of people who are attacked and raped and murdered on a daily basis, there's more black people than white, that's going to happen statistically.
		But it doesn't mean that you don't have a specific targeted extermination campaign against a group of people.
		You know, those two things can both be true.
		But they use one as if this one, just because this is true, this means this is not true.
		And that is not true.
		And the other thing is to look at the attacks on the farms in the context of the laws, the interpretation and the implementation of the laws, right?
		And also the prevailing ideology.
		Because what a lot of South Africans will tell you is that kill the farmer, kill the poor is historic, it's reminiscent of the revolution, it isn't literal.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		It's a metaphor.
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		It's a metaphor.
		It's not meant literally.
		And that they don't mean it.
		And that even though they've passed this law that says they can take all this land, they're not doing it.
		Some people will say they haven't taken any of the land without compensation.
		I know that's not true, but it's certainly not widespread.
		They haven't gone in and done a massive campaign because they function on deception and dishonesty, right?
		They tell you, well, we have to change the law, but we're never going to use it.
		It's just like, well, we've created all this technology that can spy on you at any time, but we're not really going to spy on you.
		I mean, if you believe that, you just, you're not very smart.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Fair enough, yeah.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I guess for two South Africans, the question would be being, well, and you obviously have a lot of experience in the States too, is like, what is the advice slash warning for Americans?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		I think the warning is partly what we discussed already, is just where these policies go, what you end up with if you start implementing these policies.
		Another is this, I spoke at an event at the Conservative Partnership Institute last night, and they also asked me this.
		And one warning is, or lesson I think, from South Africa is don't feed the crocodile.
		It's that old, I think Winston Churchill has said, an appeaser is someone who keeps feeding a crocodile, hoping that it would eat him last.
		But what just keeps happening is the crocodile doesn't get full.
		It just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
		And that's what happens when you give in to these demands, especially from the left, saying, well, you should do this and you should do that.
		And especially then the liberal response is often, yes, but look how much power we have.
		And so let's just give away these things, even though there's no legitimate argument as to why you should do that.
		It's just concede or seed ground.
		And then sort of we will stabilize and everyone will be happy.
		But what is very clear in South Africa is once you become a minority, it's worse.
		It's more difficult.
		Because then the argument is that you're a minority with disproportionate wealth.
		And that makes it even worse.
		And that makes the argument even more aggressive.
		And so I think there are some important lessons.
		And another important lesson from South Africa, and it links a bit to this, is just that old thing about demographics is destiny.
		So that's why I mentioned that we can't vote ourselves out of the problem in South Africa because the country is very big, very poor, more than 40% unemployment.
		That's the narrow definition of unemployment.
		And can you blame those people if they vote for socialism?
		So one party comes up and says, I'll give you, you know, I'll give you, we will have a system where you can get a job and you have to work and you can flourish.
		And the other one says, vote for me and I'll give you money.
		And then, so in South Africa at the moment, about 40, just over 40% of the country or roughly 40% are on social grants.
unidentified		Wow.
unidentified		What?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		Like more than 28 million people in South Africa.
		But then if you add people who work for the government, it's almost 60% of people in South Africa get money from the government.
		So, and then compare that to how many people in South Africa actually work, how many are employed, then the amount of people in South Africa that vote for money is like two or three times as much as the amount of people that work for money.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is why disenfranchisement is the only path.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		That's the cycle.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Second?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Disenfranchisement is the only path.
		In the United States, I think your right to vote should be tied to civic duty.
		The easiest and simple one, I think, is that in the U.S., in order to vote, you have to sign up for selective service and you get a voter ID card.
		And that would eliminate a lot of degenerate voting practices immediately.
		And there's nothing really tied to it.
		I mean, you're not going to get drafted, but you have to at least pledge to do it.
		Then there's the more serious of you have to actually serve in some capacity.
		And that doesn't mean combat.
		People always try to insinuate it means combat because they're trying to discredit you.
		But then you'd have people who have full rights and everything, but you just don't vote on how the system is run unless you'd agree to contribute to that system.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Unless you're part of it, yeah, with your actions.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And that could mean service could be cleaning the highway.
		It could mean volunteer work in a soup kitchen.
		Who knows?
		But if you're not going to actively take a role in bettering the community and serving, then don't vote.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's got to be some tie to it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, people will just vote to take your stuff.
unidentified		Yeah.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		I mean, our system wasn't like, it's very explicit.
		It was not set up for just every single person can vote no matter what, no questions asked.
		It's clearly not functioning with this new rule.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		People are just voting for money.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		They're voting for, yeah, people are going to vote for their interests.
		And for a lot of people, their interest is getting food in their mouth.
		And that's really the end of it.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		That's something the ANC said in the 90s, you know, when the Berlin Wall fell and everyone said, okay, the future, communism has been defeated.
		Joe Slovo from the Communist Party in South Africa said, well, actually, the future of communism lies through democracy.
		And he said that in, and he then said, well, real communism has never been tried.
		But he said the argument, his argument was that Stalinism is not real communism because it's too, it's too, it gives too much power to the party or it's too aggressive.
		And it's too...
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		Because when Obama said defund the police and Democrats lost support, he said we shouldn't have said defund the police.
		He didn't say we shouldn't defund the police.
		He said we shouldn't have said it.
		We shouldn't have been honest about what it was we were going to do because Marxism is built on deception.
		When Ugo Chavez ran for power in Venezuela, he said we were going to give wealth, the wealth of the country to all of Venezuelans.
		He didn't say most of you are going to be starving in a few years' time and my daughter is going to be the richest woman in Venezuela.
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, it's been fun.
		I do appreciate you guys coming in and sharing your insights and all this.
		Do you have any final thoughts or anything you want to shout out before we wrap up?
ernst roets ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you for having me.
		Thank you for the discussion.
		If I may, I work for a think tank slash advocacy group.
		It's an NGO in South Africa that works, does research on what's happening in South Africa.
		And our main argument, as I mentioned in the beginning, is that we believe that the reform South Africa needs is systemic reform.
		It needs a different political dispensation.
		And so if there are people watching who are interested in that, either from a journalistic perspective or a research perspective or just becoming involved or supporting, I would encourage them to go and visit our website.
		It's Lex Libertas.
		It's the Latin for law and freedom.
		And what we mean by that name is we want a legal system that enables more freedom in South Africa and not less.
		So it's lexlibertas.org.za.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right on.
		Any final thoughts?
		Something to shout out?
lara logan ▲ ● ▼		I would just say that this is a global assault.
		And the things, if South Africa seems to you to be far away and halfway across the world, then why should you care?
		I would say you should care because all of the things that are happening there are the same battles that are being fought here in the United States.
		And if people want to find me, they can watch my show going rogue with Laurel Logan, my podcast, which is on every platform.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right on.
unidentified		Cool.
tate brown ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can find me on X at RealTate Brown and on Instagram at RealTate Brown.
		I have some Africa stories coming.
		I've been procrastinating a little bit, but these two are so awesome.
		It's just so cool to be here with you too.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So for everybody else, we're back tonight at 8 p.m. for Timcast IRL.
		And then tomorrow, The Culture War live in Washington, D.C. It's going to be fun.
		You can show up.
		There may be open seats.
		I'm not entirely sure because things got all crazy, but we do recommend everybody come to the event.
		We'll even let you come up on stage and debate us and join the show.
		Thanks for hanging out.

▲