The Culture War - Tim Pool - Catholics Are The SUPERIOR Christians, DEBATE w/ Jay Dyer, Tim Gordon, & The Lore Lodge
Aired: 2025-06-13
Duration: 02:03:39


=== View Of The Pope (15:08) ===

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[00:01:00]  Transcription by CastingWords So, uh, how long ago was this?
[00:01:10]  A couple months?
[00:01:10]  I can't remember.
[00:01:11]  We were hanging out here at the old Tim Cassidy's right before the show.
[00:01:15]  And I'd made a comment about fertility rates being low, but among conservatives still around like 1.8, to which I think it was Phil Labonte responded that Catholics have a higher-than-replacement rate fertility at like 2.4.
[00:01:28]  And then I was like, is that true?
[00:01:30]  And Mary Morgan was also on the show, and then I think she mentioned something about divorce rates are also really low.
[00:01:35]  And then I jokingly said Catholics are the superior Christians, and to which everyone chuckled, and I antagonistically said, should I tweet that?
[00:01:42]  Because I just knew it.
[00:01:43]  Cause a storm, you know, a storm.
[00:01:45]  And then Mary and Phil both said yes.
[00:01:47]  And I was like, okay, so I did.
[00:01:49]  And here we are now.
[00:01:50]  Do I have the, we don't have the, oh, I can pull, well, whatever, we don't have the tree pulled up.
[00:01:53]  But now we're actually going to have that debate because admittedly, I'm a lapsed Catholic.
[00:01:59]  I was 10 years old when my family left the church.
[00:02:01]  So what do I know?
[00:02:03]  So I brought in a handful of gentlemen to have this conversation.
[00:02:07]  And have this debate over the religion, the denomination.
[00:02:11]  Sir, would you like to introduce yourself first?
[00:02:13]  Yeah, Jay Dyer.
[00:02:14]  I host the Alex Jones Show.
[00:02:16]  I've done that for the last five years.
[00:02:17]  I write for the Sam Hyde Show, doing comedy.
[00:02:20]  I've debated all the top atheists, Muslims that are out there, and looking forward to this one.
[00:02:26]  Right on.
[00:02:27]  I am Aidan Mattis.
[00:02:28]  I am the host of The Lore Lodge, the Weird Bible and History Unhinged on YouTube.
[00:02:33]  And I have not debated all that many people, so this is going to be an interesting day for me.
[00:02:38]  I'm Timothy Gordon.
[00:02:39]  I'm the representative of the superior religion here today.
[00:02:42]  You know me from YouTube.
[00:02:44]  Rules for Retrogrades is the name of the show.
[00:02:46]  I'm the author of five books.
[00:02:47]  And I'm excited to defend your position that you meant totally literally today.
[00:02:54]  Can we just end with that?
[00:02:56]  So let's start with why it's not the superior religion.
[00:02:58]  Who wants to go first?
[00:03:00]  I'll go first.
[00:03:01]  So I used to be Catholic.
[00:03:03]  Where are you now?
[00:03:05]  Orthodox.
[00:03:06]  I've been Orthodox for the past eight years, Orthodox Christian.
[00:03:08]  So I think there's some key things that stand out as the reason why Catholicism is not superior.
[00:03:16]  One would be the contradictions that I think have occurred in Catholic dogma, particularly after the first millennium.
[00:03:22]  You have the notion that the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop is necessary for salvation from the time of dictatorship.
[00:03:37]  He's the world emperor.
[00:03:39]  And if you don't believe that, you will lose your salvation.
[00:03:41]  So that was clear dogma in the Middle Ages.
[00:03:44]  Nowadays, post-Vatican II, when we go to the documents of Vatican II, Vatican II, that is no longer even mentioned.
[00:03:50]  In fact, it's de-emphasized.
[00:03:51]  And in fact, many of the Vatican II popes have called for the de-Catholicizing of various Christian states.
[00:03:57]  So one would be that there's a contradiction there.
[00:04:00]  The relationship of the church to the other religions, for example, in the Middle Ages, you have the condemnation of Muslims at the Council of the Inn as the abominable sect of Muhammad.
[00:04:10]  Nowadays, post-Vatican II, post-Ecumenism, post-Nosteroetate, which are Vatican II documents, not only is Islam a salvific religion, we can actually go and pray in the mosques towards Mecca, which the last several popes have done, exemplifying their faith.
[00:04:27]  Catholics can do that?
[00:04:28]  They can now.
[00:04:29]  There's also the Abu Dhabi Faith Center, which has been built.
[00:04:33]  Now, I'm sure Tim's going to take issue with whether you actually can, but the Vatican II documents actually do promote...
[00:04:55]  quote, the surrendering of the faith.
[00:04:58]  So these are a couple contradictions.
[00:04:59]  There's many more.
[00:05:00]  The death penalty has recently been changed, according to Catholic.
[00:05:04]  Catechism.
[00:05:05]  Now, according to Pope Francis, it is, quote, contrary to the gospel.
[00:05:09]  If you go back to the Catechism of Trent, it was said to be part of natural justice or natural law.
[00:05:14]  So certainly nobody would believe that the papacy can change or alter natural law.
[00:05:18]  But is the implication then that the Orthodox Church is static?
[00:05:22]  It doesn't change?
[00:05:23]  Yes, we would argue that the first thousand years of Christianity, as you look at it from the council's perspective and the canon law and the church father's teachings, the So it's exactly the same as the first thousand years of Christianity.
[00:05:37]  Rome and the papacy is what has departed, particularly in the 11th, 12th, 13th centuries.
[00:05:42]  What about you?
[00:05:43]  What denomination are you?
[00:05:45]  So I have been a Methodist for many years.
[00:05:47]  I've recently began inquiring into the Anglican Catholic Church, which is not the Anglican Church is in the Church of England, nor is it the Episcopal Church.
[00:05:54]  It actually split off from that in, I want to say, 1978 with the Episcopal Church's decision to begin ordaining women.
[00:06:00]  So it is a conservative Anglican theology.
[00:06:03]  And to be perfectly honest, I don't really disagree with much of what Jay just said.
[00:06:08]  Our church largely does tie itself back to the pre-12th century Christian church, tries to emulate that, and that's kind of the position of the Anglican Catholic Church, is we are not the one true church.
[00:06:22]  We are not the perfect representation of Christianity.
[00:06:26]  We are doing our best to retain Christianity prior to councils like the Council of Trent that we felt changed the religion too much.
[00:06:36]  So like Jay said, it's very much the 11th century and back is what we consider to be the unified church.
[00:06:44]  I have a question, but I'm going to wait until you can set your position on Catholicism.
[00:06:50]  Great.
[00:06:51]  Catholicism is the one true church.
[00:06:53]  We make this claim based on many premises, but the first ones are this, indefectibility.
[00:07:02]  Can never defect.
[00:07:04]  It won't defect.
[00:07:05]  Our Lord promised that when the Spirit of truth comes in Scripture, He'll guide you into all truth.
[00:07:10]  In John's Gospel, gates of hell won't prevail against the Church of Matthew's Gospel.
[00:07:14]  In 1 Timothy, the Church of the Living God is the pillar and bulwark of truth.
[00:07:18]  And therefore, our Lord is a liar if...
[00:07:24]  And, you know, this is a little bit funny because what I'm going to be doing is talking about super specific church terms, religion terms, with Jay today.
[00:07:33]  And then we'll be talking about more broad things because really Protestantism isn't technically a religion.
[00:07:41]  It's a faith.
[00:07:43]  But we can talk about things like the ecumenical councils, the first seven ecumenical councils about which Orthodox and Catholic agree.
[00:07:51]  Something like four of these first four ecumenical councils.
[00:07:54]  I'll read you chapter and verse.
[00:07:55]  The Orthodox has a view of the Pope, which is the Church's view.
[00:08:01]  The Church's second millennium view of the Pope.
[00:08:03]  And the Orthodox defected on this.
[00:08:06]  Now, Protestants defected.
[00:08:09]  They represent the soul of defectibility.
[00:08:12]  Indefectibility means that nothing's going to change.
[00:08:15]  Protestants are a religion that sprang forth from the earth like Athena from Zeus' head in the 16th century.
[00:08:21]  It's proto-Enlightenment abstract rationalism that's vaguely pro-Jesus.
[00:08:26]  But Orthodox Catholic debates are more specific because we have to talk about what the – at the very least, the first seven ecumenical councils require and the first seven ecumenical councils about which Jay and I agree.
[00:08:42]  If you go to, like, number three, Ephesus involves the patriarch of Constantinople, the highest guy in their second millennium church, being fired by – being requested to be fired by other Eastern Orthodox guys like Cyril of Alexandria.
[00:09:00]  He writes the pope and he says, can you excommunicate?
[00:09:03]  The patriarch of Constantinople Nestorius, because he's saying this absurdism, like unto what many Protestants say today, that Mary's the mother of Jesus, but not God.
[00:09:15]  And so, kind of like Dwight Schrute says in The Office, if you are the guy that's actually boss, you can make a firing.
[00:09:22]  And tons upon tons upon tons of first millennium Eastern thinkers from the Eastern lung of the Church associated with Orthodoxy, but also Catholic saints like...
[00:09:50]  and tons upon tons of the councils, also Nicaea.
[00:09:54]  Two, Constantinople III.
[00:09:56]  Constantinople IV, we kind of disagree with them about it.
[00:09:59]  And even the Union of Florence at the Council of Florence, which is an ecumenical council, it was called by an emperor.
[00:10:05]  A lot of people don't know this.
[00:10:07]  We had a reunification of the Catholic and the Orthodox churches, and it was a legit unification.
[00:10:13]  31 out of 33 bishops in whatever it was, 1439, of the Orthodox came and voted for unification, including the Patriarch of Constantinople.
[00:10:23]  And then they went home and essentially they were strong-armed into nullifying the unification.
[00:10:31]  Let's try and simplify as much as we can real quick to make this point because I do have a question.
[00:10:35]  but the Orthodox argument is you want to stay true to the original view of Scripture and what it dictates, and is the Catholic view that...
[00:10:51]  Absolutely not.
[00:10:52]  I would say you have that reversed.
[00:10:54]  The Orthodox always being centered in Constantinople were close to the emperor.
[00:11:00]  The first thing Constantine did after he legalized Christianity with the Edict of Milan is he moved the capital from Rome.
[00:11:07]  To Constantinople.
[00:11:08]  He named the city after himself, which is a badass move.
[00:11:10]  Chad move.
[00:11:11]  It is Tim City.
[00:11:14]  Constantine City.
[00:11:15]  And so the Orthodox, over the remainder of the first Christian millennium, they had the Patriarch of Constantinople, who would be elevated to the second most powerful under Rome, eventually.
[00:11:29]  And they always had—they were next to the Emperor.
[00:11:32]  And so they were always— Alongside the Emperor, and of course there's multiple Orthodox churches, so they don't even agree on things like whether—they can't be one.
[00:11:42]  They can't be true to the Gospel because they don't agree on things like whether you can have divorce, whether you can have contraception, whereas the Roman Catholic Church, under the single sign of unity.
[00:11:54]  The pope, which everybody hates, they are kept together.
[00:11:58]  And the second millennium Catholic view of the pope is exactly what the first millennium view of the pope was.
[00:12:05]  Not at all.
[00:12:06]  Reisinger admits it's not.
[00:12:08]  He was a lefty.
[00:12:10]  Again, I'm not – I don't follow any of the organized religions or anything like that.
[00:12:13]  But real quick, I'm just – the reason I ask the question is different popes have had different positions on cultural issues.
[00:12:21]  I think you mentioned the death penalty just now, but there's also questions of gay marriage and abortion.
[00:12:29]  There's gay blessings that are allowed in Francis' encyclical, which was a change from the previous Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is basically the successor to the Holy Office.
[00:12:39]  Yeah, I mean, and I'm not trying to be rude to Tim, but Tim didn't actually mention or address any of the actual contradictions that I listed.
[00:12:45]  He came up with a list of sort of...
[00:12:48]  I would say equivocations on the way that different church fathers use the word head.
[00:12:52]  Basil in his letters, for example, talks about the Bishop of Antioch being the head of the whole body, the head of the world, because in his reading, Because he was dealing with the schism in Antioch.
[00:13:04]  So this flowery language a lot of times is used amongst many of the church fathers.
[00:13:08]  You have at the Seventh Ecumenical Council the phrase, the gates of hell will not prevail against, and then guess what?
[00:13:14]  They use the emperor.
[00:13:15]  I don't think anybody believes that Matthew 16 is about the emperor.
[00:13:18]  But we can find in the Acts of the Councils, if you have like Price's books and whatnot, multiple examples of this sort of language that's used.
[00:13:24]  But that doesn't equate to the idea of Vatican I. And like Tim Bull said, Not only do you have changes in practice or praxis such as the complete revolution in the most holy thing in the Roman Catholic Church, the liturgy itself, you have a Protestantization after Vatican II, a liturgical revolution.
[00:13:41]  that's more important than other types of issues like, you know, can we have the death penalty?
[00:13:47]  I think for Roman Catholic theology, In fact, Francis said in, I think, 2017, I have the reference if anybody wants to look and see, but he said that the reforms of Vatican II are dogmatic, magisterial, and irreformable.
[00:14:10]  That means that you cannot reject any of the things of Vatican II that you don't like, even if you want to debate the status of them.
[00:14:16]  So not only have the morals and the ideas changed, What about Unum Sanctum?
[00:14:32]  Wait, hold on.
[00:14:34]  Unum Sanctum doesn't represent a dogmatic view.
[00:14:37]  What does that mean?
[00:14:38]  Why is it in Denzinger?
[00:14:40]  It's necessary for salvation.
[00:14:42]  Denzinger is not the deposit.
[00:14:44]  It's the collections of Catholic dogma, so it does include what is the normative dogma.
[00:14:48]  So how could you...
[00:14:49]  I think Tim's asking what unum sanctum is.
[00:14:51]  Unum sanctum.
[00:14:51]  Unum sanctum is the 1302 decree of Pope Boniface that to be saved, not only must you be in communion with the Roman Pope, you must also accept...

=== Vigilius And The Pope's Authority (15:28) ===

[00:15:06]  The Roman bishop is the emperor of emperors.
[00:15:08]  In fact, all the same terminology that's used in the first statement about this in Dictatus Pape in 1090 is repeated not only in Unum Sanctum, but also all the way into the 1800s, into the syllabus of errors attached to Vatican I. So you're telling me that from the 1300s, from 1100 to 1300, all the way up to Vatican I and the syllabus of errors, all the rejection.
[00:15:31]  That they had of the proposition that the church and the state could be separate and that you don't have to believe in the temporal supremacy.
[00:15:36]  That wasn't dogma, even though it was necessary for salvation.
[00:15:39]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:40]  So what I would say to this is that the contradictions which inhere in the heart of Orthodox Christianity, Tim, are fundamental.
[00:15:51]  and they're literally going to address what I call it or is that just too?
[00:15:54]  Yeah, no, this is, this is really important because that the, There's reformable doctrine and irreformable doctrine.
[00:16:13]  What about Marari Voss?
[00:16:16]  Because we're looking to people that are Protestant.
[00:16:19]  We're talking to Orthodox.
[00:16:20]  The most important thing for the listeners out there is, if there's a head of the church So we have to start at the beginning.
[00:16:34]  It's not equivocation.
[00:16:35]  This is as direct as we can be.
[00:16:36]  If there's a head, and we should be specific.
[00:16:39]  Let's be specific to the actual councils about which we agree.
[00:16:43]  And this is what Jay is going to be trying to avoid today, is that the seven councils that they accept defines...
[00:16:57]  I'll read some to you in a second from Ephesus, from Nicaea II, from Constantinople III, IV.
[00:17:02]  If there's a pope that is a meaningful boss that is appealed to with a kind of appellate supreme jurisdiction, then Roman Catholicism has to be true because it's the only one of the three sects that represents this.
[00:17:16]  So listen to what was said at Ephesus, signed on to by the Orthodox.
[00:17:20]  "Holy and blessed Peter, the prince and head of the apostles, the column of faith, the foundation of the Catholic Church, the prince of the apostles, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, and that to him was given the power of binding and loosing sins, who until this day and forever lives and judges in his successors." Now, what happened leading to the third ecumenical council, Ephesus, is you have this guy Nestorius that's teaching falsely, he's the patriarch of Constantinople, that Mary was mother to
[00:17:52]  Dividing his natures.
[00:17:53]  Lots of Protestants today say this.
[00:17:54]  Neither Orthodox nor Catholic.
[00:17:56]  I'm glad you clarified lots of Protestants, not Protestants.
[00:17:58]  Half or so.
[00:17:59]  Lots of evangelicals.
[00:18:00]  Dividing his person, not the natures.
[00:18:02]  Natures are divided.
[00:18:04]  Dividing the person.
[00:18:04]  Right.
[00:18:04]  Sorry.
[00:18:05]  Yeah.
[00:18:05]  Dividing his person, not the natures.
[00:18:06]  So Cyril of Alexandria writes the pope, writes the boss of the churches early, early on.
[00:18:13]  This is the exact view of the papacy that the Roman Catholic Church has now.
[00:18:16]  It's a collegial.
[00:18:18]  First, but the Orthodox are going to hit you with this idea that the Pope was merely the first among equals.
[00:18:24]  This is one of those nonsense terms that would mean like a round table where he's not actually appealed to.
[00:18:30]  He doesn't have a kind of appellate jurisdiction.
[00:18:32]  He would not be able to excommunicate any of the other patriarchs.
[00:18:36]  And so they write to him, and Cyril says to the Pope, we rely on the authority of the blessed Apostle Peter, on whom the Church was founded.
[00:18:45]  And whose successor, the Blessed Celestine, who was pope at the time, is.
[00:18:48]  He also says, Your Holiness, who holds the place of Peter, the prince of the apostles, has rightly judged this matter and condemned the story.
[00:18:55]  Now, what Jay and the Orthodox have to say is that it's a merely honorary position, but he could fire people.
[00:19:01]  Like you would tell Dwight.
[00:19:04]  I just want to cut it.
[00:19:06]  I think the term prince here is very important, because a prince is not an emperor.
[00:19:10]  A prince is not a king.
[00:19:11]  A prince is first citizen.
[00:19:13]  Prince has prerogative.
[00:19:17]  Sure, but what the Orthodox position is, and what the Protestant position is, historically, is that the Pope has primacy.
[00:19:26]  He is first among equals.
[00:19:28]  That does not mean that he gets to unilaterally make decisions.
[00:19:32]  In the objection to the other pope.
[00:19:35]  Well, that runs foul of Ephesus.
[00:19:38]  I'll read you in Nicaea 2 after Jay says something.
[00:19:40]  I'll read you one.
[00:19:40]  To answer his claim from Ephesus and the idea of an appellate jurisdiction, everyone is well aware of this.
[00:19:46]  In fact, the Vatican itself has a great commentary on the meaning of this appellate structure in the recent document from Chi-80, which is a Vatican-approved document on exactly what was going on.
[00:19:57]  It's an approved document.
[00:19:59]  So this is what Rome nowadays says.
[00:20:01]  Tim doesn't like what Rome says nowadays, It doesn't matter because this is what Rome says nowadays.
[00:20:07]  It's not a church document.
[00:20:08]  It's dogmatic when it's convenient for it to be dogmatic.
[00:20:10]  Your quote, mine, isn't dogmatic either, so allow me to...
[00:20:17]  It's going to be.
[00:20:18]  There are even Christians of each denomination being like, what are they talking about?
[00:20:21]  So what Rome nowadays says about this is that Sardica was received at the Council of Trello.
[00:20:26]  The canons of Sardica determined that a bishop who has been condemned can appeal to the bishop of Rome.
[00:20:31]  It doesn't matter.
[00:20:53]  Such appeals to major Cs were always treated in a synodal way.
[00:20:58]  Appeals to the Bishop of Rome from the east expressed The community of the church.
[00:21:01]  But Rome did not exercise canonical jurisdiction over the churches of the East.
[00:21:07]  So when Athanasius gets appeals to excommunicate people, does that make Athanasius the head of the church?
[00:21:13]  Of course not.
[00:21:14]  It doesn't matter because it's Rome's present statement on what your church's tradition is.
[00:21:21]  So this is what happens.
[00:21:22]  Pick and choose the documents that you don't like.
[00:21:24]  So this is Rome.
[00:21:26]  Documents have an ordering.
[00:21:27]  More than the Roman theologians now, because Rome actually says what I'm saying about appellate jurisdiction.
[00:21:33]  We understand there's a difference of opinion.
[00:21:35]  There's a retrial.
[00:21:36]  Can you name a single scholar that talks about this that doesn't have the Chieti view?
[00:21:41]  Oh, yeah.
[00:21:42]  Yeah.
[00:21:42]  All of the scholars who aren't with communion.
[00:21:44]  All of them.
[00:21:45]  Name one.
[00:21:45]  That is not one.
[00:21:47]  Can you name one?
[00:21:48]  Let me see.
[00:21:48]  Can you name one?
[00:21:49]  Scholars aren't the mind of the church, by the way.
[00:21:51]  Really?
[00:21:52]  I'm talking about dogma.
[00:21:53]  What hasn't changed.
[00:21:54]  You mean like the three dogmas I listed?
[00:21:56]  Dogma.
[00:21:56]  The contradictions you didn't address?
[00:21:58]  Those weren't dogmas.
[00:21:59]  Nicaea, too.
[00:22:01]  Dogma's on the crystal.
[00:22:01]  You've got a book of dogmas in there.
[00:22:03]  Unum sanctum.
[00:22:04]  Unum sanctum.
[00:22:05]  All the way up until syllabus of errors.
[00:22:07]  It's necessary for salvation, and it's not dogma.
[00:22:09]  But we're talking about the first seven councils.
[00:22:11]  Let's get to what I'm saying.
[00:22:13]  The reason I'm talking about it is because, Jay, if the first seven councils disagree with the current position of the church, they don't.
[00:22:22]  But see, the trick is this.
[00:22:24]  All you've done is quote my papacy.
[00:22:28]  You have 39,000 secs.
[00:22:30]  No, we don't.
[00:22:33]  There are 14 autocephalist churches.
[00:22:36]  autocephalous churches.
[00:22:38]  So the tension resides in, for Do you know where it comes from?
[00:22:43]  Yes, I do.
[00:22:43]  Where?
[00:22:43]  Where?
[00:22:44]  So, autocephalous churches, they are relatively unified with respect to themselves.
[00:22:49]  My church predates all of this.
[00:22:51]  When you have a visible sign of unity, when you have one Holy Roman Catholic Church, the four marks of the church, this comes from Nicaea I. When you have one, there's, of course, this is what they're playing on.
[00:23:01]  It's a strong rhetorical position.
[00:23:03]  Naturally, there's going to be lots of disparity within the religion, and so documents have to be ordered hierarchically.
[00:23:09]  What's called the depositum fide, what never changes.
[00:23:13]  Best represented in real time by something called the Acta Apostolic Assetis is something that is airtight.
[00:23:20]  And there are tons and tons of liberal scholars since Vatican II, since Vatican I, that present opinions that they light on.
[00:23:27]  Francis is probably the worst pope we've ever had that do not make it into the Acta Apostolicus Edison, certainly don't make it into the deposit of faith.
[00:23:36]  I thought we'd come here and talk about the first seven councils because it's that which we agree about.
[00:23:40]  And I see it too.
[00:23:41]  Let me just get this out.
[00:23:43]  It says this, if you think that I was quote mining Ephesus, Jay, "primacial authority everywhere on earth was given by the people." Through the same Apostle, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church has held till now and will hold for all time primacy and sovereign authority.
[00:24:01]  So you have the lineage there.
[00:24:03]  It's for all time.
[00:24:04]  It's primacy.
[00:24:05]  It's sovereign authority.
[00:24:06]  If there's a head of the Church that can fire other guys, then this is the kind of Pope that the Roman Catholic Church describes as the Bishop of Rome.
[00:24:13]  I have a huge objection to this.
[00:24:14]  First of all, Pope Vigilius...
[00:24:24]  Vigilia submitted to the council.
[00:24:26]  Does that sound like a, Or does it sound like the Council's above the Pope?
[00:24:30]  It's collegial.
[00:24:31]  No, it's not.
[00:24:32]  No, the Pope is collegial.
[00:24:33]  This is exactly what Vatican I says.
[00:24:35]  Vatican I says that the Pope has a collegial relationship to the rest of the bishops.
[00:24:41]  But does it say that he relies on the Church to do that?
[00:24:43]  No.
[00:24:43]  Vigilius I submitted to the Pope.
[00:24:47]  Vigilius submitted to the Pope?
[00:24:48]  Vigilius was the Pope.
[00:24:49]  People aren't going to follow this.
[00:24:50]  Jilius submitted to the council, not the Pope.
[00:24:52]  But Jilius was excommunicated by the council, according to Richard Price's That is not Vatican I view.
[00:25:04]  Would the pope submitting to the council not prove that the council has authority over the pope?
[00:25:09]  It proves that the pope bears a collegial relationship.
[00:25:12]  Vatican I says that the council is not above a pope.
[00:25:15]  You know that.
[00:25:15]  Of course.
[00:25:16]  It's not above a pope.
[00:25:17]  Then why is Vigilia submitting?
[00:25:24]  That seems quite convenient to the Catholic argument.
[00:25:25]  Exactly.
[00:25:26]  Well, it is.
[00:25:27]  Well, it's highly inconvenient to the Catholic argument that you misunderstand it.
[00:25:30]  The Pope's relationship to all of the other churches is specifically this.
[00:25:37]  He is, sorry, to the bishops, is this.
[00:25:40]  He's collegial.
[00:25:41]  He has this ex cathedra power to declare infallible.
[00:25:47]  When, and only when, he makes the claim.
[00:25:50]  And most of the time, the only two times we know that he's used the power in the last thousand years, everyone misunderstands it.
[00:25:56]  What he did first in 1854 and then in 1950 is he pulled all the bishops of the world to make sure that this ex cathodic power, which is not oracular, he's not divining out of his head magical truths that have never been taught.
[00:26:10]  The Pope, because the Roman Catholic Church is the one church that goes all the way back to Scripture, the Pope wants to make sure that bishops always and everywhere have taught How does this answer the objection?
[00:26:22]  Also, how does your church alone go back to Scripture?
[00:26:26]  Do you see the distinction, though, Tim?
[00:26:27]  So when the Pope says, I'm going to say something ex cathedra and everyone goes apeshit, they think that he's divining out of it.
[00:26:33]  When he's in his special order, he's infallible?
[00:26:36]  The Pope has a collegial relationship to the bishops, but he's their boss.
[00:26:41]  Then he can't be fired if he's their boss.
[00:26:44]  And that's exactly what happens with Vigilius.
[00:26:46]  It's more like the board of a company firing the CEO.
[00:26:49]  Vatican I says that.
[00:26:49]  The Pope is not superior to a council.
[00:26:52]  He doesn't submit to the council.
[00:26:53]  Okay, let me ask.
[00:26:54]  You said it?
[00:26:55]  You said it?
[00:26:55]  Okay, I got a question.
[00:26:56]  I'm not a Catholic.
[00:26:56]  I got no idea what half the stuff you got.
[00:26:58]  You're saying all these Latin things and everything.
[00:27:00]  You said the Pope can decree infallible truth.
[00:27:03]  Am I wrong?
[00:27:03]  Is that what you said?
[00:27:05]  When he speaks from his special chair.
[00:27:06]  from pastor itself he's if he's in his What is it?
[00:27:11]  Ex-Cathedra means from the chair.
[00:27:13]  So from the chair.
[00:27:14]  He can declare something to be true, like if he said gay marriage is never a thing.
[00:27:20]  Is that an example of what he might say?
[00:27:22]  Yeah.
[00:27:23]  He could also say the opposite, and he would have to respect it.
[00:27:26]  Right, and here's the proof.
[00:27:28]  That's something ex cathedra has never been declared that wasn't held from all time, the beginning of the church, which is what happened...
[00:27:35]  I didn't really get it out.
[00:27:36]  When the pope has made ex cathedra claims...
[00:27:45]  He's not an autocrat.
[00:27:46]  It's just a quick way of safeguarding something that was always taught.
[00:27:50]  With Titus Pape, he did claim to be an autocrat.
[00:27:54]  He fully claimed that.
[00:27:55]  To clarify my point.
[00:27:57]  He is not deciding that he wants gay marriage when he says it.
[00:28:01]  He is sitting in the chair and saying what the church believes based on what the church believes.
[00:28:05]  Is that your point?
[00:28:06]  Well, the church doesn't have gay marriage.
[00:28:07]  Never has.
[00:28:08]  My point is, if the Pope went to a chair and said, there is no gay marriage, it's not that he's deciding it.
[00:28:14]  He's saying, this is what the church has always held to be true.
[00:28:18]  Precisely.
[00:28:18]  Yeah, and that's what everyone misunderstands at Pastor Eternus Vatican I. The most important thing...
[00:28:25]  Sorry, and then it would sound to me, the issue of removing a pope would be Well, the first question, yes, correct, is the notion of that authority, whether he actually possesses the Vatican I authority that Tim is reading back into the many examples that contradict his reading.
[00:28:45]  For example, Pope Vigilius is literally excommunicated and suspended at the Fifth Ecumenical Council.
[00:28:50]  That's from Richard Price, the famous Catholic scholar's translation of the Acts of the Council.
[00:28:57]  The argument is not that the Pope has no relationship to the bishops, so he deflected and defeated a straw man.
[00:29:04]  The argument is that And then now at Vatican I, it says the literal opposite, that no council is above or can fire the pope.
[00:29:20]  So it's a complete contradiction.
[00:29:21]  And it's not just Vigilius.
[00:29:23]  Tim said in his opening statement that the church via the Roman See cannot defect.
[00:29:28]  If it could, it would lose one of its constituent components.
[00:29:37]  He did defect.
[00:29:38]  All he did was write one letter that contained heretical statements, and the church at So again, indefectibility, the notion of authority is all fluctuating and elastic depending upon what Tim needs to be the case at the time.
[00:29:58]  And his only answer was a tu quoque, and he didn't address any of the things that I read.
[00:30:02]  It wasn't a tu quoque.
[00:30:03]  I want to build on what he just said.

=== Branch Theory Debate (15:34) ===

[00:30:06]  I want to build on what he just said, too, because if Honorius, Had declared monothelitism ex-cathedra to be the truth, what would you have to believe?
[00:30:16]  Well, the claim of the church is that the church is indefectible.
[00:30:20]  This is Christ's promise.
[00:30:21]  No.
[00:30:22]  Roman See is indefectible.
[00:30:23]  Vatican One says the Roman See is indefectible.
[00:30:25]  Okay.
[00:30:25]  The Roman See is indefectible insofar as this requires interpretation.
[00:30:30]  What if you get an honoris?
[00:30:33]  Yeah.
[00:30:34]  What if you get an honorius?
[00:30:35]  It's a systematic question.
[00:30:36]  So theological opinion, whether we're going to Suarez or Bellarmine or Francis Xavier, theological opinion.
[00:30:42]  Can vary on this, because what happens then?
[00:30:46]  Obviously, we know the church has to be one.
[00:30:49]  It's got to be holy, it's got to be Catholic, it's got to be apostolic.
[00:30:52]  Or maybe it's just another Roman church.
[00:30:53]  Why does it have to respect the Pope?
[00:30:55]  Let me get it out.
[00:30:57]  I don't want to talk to two barking dogs, so let me get it out.
[00:31:02]  We have to make these things really clear first.
[00:31:04]  Judd Nelson's getting mad.
[00:31:06]  More of a bobcat, really.
[00:31:08]  Nice to see you, too.
[00:31:09]  Primational authority everywhere.
[00:31:11]  What does this mean to you, Tim, if you were to hear Constantinople III?
[00:31:16]  Because if the claim is that I'm expanding upon the view, you know, the Catholic view of what the Orthodox view of popes might have been in the first millennium, then just explain what this language means.
[00:31:31]  The Church has never erred from the path of the apostolic tradition, nor has she been depraved by yielding to heretical innovations.
[00:31:37]  but from the beginning she has received the Christian faith from her founders, the princes of the apostles of Christ, and remains undefiled to the end according to the divine promise of the Lord and Savior himself.
[00:31:50]  There are lots of them.
[00:31:51]  We've had 267.
[00:31:52]  Heretics, not just bad.
[00:31:53]  Heretics.
[00:31:54]  You have to differentiate between, which no one in this audience, 10% at most will know, between material and formal heretics, which is going to take another five minutes.
[00:32:04]  I'm not going to get out what I want to say because I'm defending this position.
[00:32:07]  Look at Constantinople IV.
[00:32:09]  You can't have material heretics.
[00:32:10]  You can't have formal heretics.
[00:32:12]  Constantinople 4, what does this mean to you?
[00:32:13]  This is the 879 version.
[00:32:17]  It was originally convened in 869.
[00:32:20]  That's the Catholic version.
[00:32:20]  I'm reading from the Orthodox document.
[00:32:22]  Listen to this.
[00:32:23]  What do you do with this?
[00:32:24]  For just as the apostolic throne, having received the keys of the kingdom of heaven from the first and great high priest, Jesus Christ, through the chief of the apostles, Peter, he has the authority of universal binding and loosing.
[00:32:37]  Binding and loosing is the power to forgive sins, which Protestants don't have at all.
[00:32:41]  Orthodox have it, but except this is an Orthodox document.
[00:32:45]  This was an Orthodox council.
[00:32:46]  We hold this council, Jim.
[00:32:49]  That's my whole point.
[00:32:50]  We have this council.
[00:32:51]  We don't disagree with you on that.
[00:32:53]  We don't have bishops.
[00:32:54]  Yes, we do.
[00:32:54]  I'm talking to the guy in the room.
[00:32:55]  We do have bishops, and they go all the way back to Aristobalus of Britain.
[00:32:59]  What does this mean to you?
[00:33:00]  He, Peter, and the Pope as the authority of universal binding and loosing.
[00:33:05]  They say this is just a symbolic power.
[00:33:07]  No, we don't say that.
[00:33:08]  It's really an honorific.
[00:33:11]  It's merely first among equals.
[00:33:12]  Now, hold on.
[00:33:13]  If you're appealed to.
[00:33:17]  Of course.
[00:33:18]  of course but only one has what's called here at You have to tell me how that can happen.
[00:33:33]  And that's why a council can excommunicate the pope, because the council is above the pope.
[00:33:37]  Excommunicate the pope.
[00:33:37]  The pope is above any individual bishop.
[00:33:40]  The bishops are above the pope.
[00:33:42]  The acts of the council.
[00:33:48]  I would like to hear from you guys, what about the arguments you've made or believe makes your denomination superior in the true sense of the word superior?
[00:33:58]  Are you saying that it's because you're right?
[00:34:01]  You are correct?
[00:34:02]  Or is there something about your belief that inherently better serves the people and God?
[00:34:07]  I mean, just to be very clear, the Anglican Catholic position, and by extension the Methodist position, because Methodists are Anglicans, is that the Methodist Church, the Anglican Church, all of them, they're not the superior one true church.
[00:34:19]  They are a group of Christians in their genuine best effort attempting to...
[00:34:30]  We are Catholic up until the end of the 11th century.
[00:34:35]  Why?
[00:34:35]  What happened then?
[00:34:37]  We began to disagree with the Pope.
[00:34:39]  I mean, it's a long process.
[00:34:41]  The Reformation did not happen in 1517.
[00:34:42]  In the 11th century, a Pope came in who was saying stuff that was, like, way wrong?
[00:34:45]  I would argue it started with Gregory VII, probably, with the Dictatus Pape and him coming out.
[00:34:50]  And because of a literal political situation, this was not a theological issue.
[00:34:54]  This is a political issue.
[00:34:56]  I have a question for you.
[00:34:56]  You're an Anglican, then do you agree with the branch theory?
[00:34:59]  Anglican-Catholic.
[00:35:01]  Do you agree with the branch theory?
[00:35:02]  Can you elaborate on the branch theory?
[00:35:03]  It's the typical Anglican idea that the church is split amongst a bunch of different branches.
[00:35:08]  I think that would probably line up.
[00:35:11]  Do you think that any of the people who composed the documents and the canons at the seven ecumenical councils believe that the church was divided amongst a bunch of different sects?
[00:35:19]  I don't...
[00:35:21]  Well, I...
[00:35:26]  Could you name anybody that believed that about the nature of the church?
[00:35:31]  I don't know that I would agree that it was necessarily divided into several sects, and I don't know that my church would agree with that either.
[00:35:37]  Well, don't you agree with the idea that Protestants are trying their best, and whether they're Methodists or whether they're Anglican doesn't really matter?
[00:35:43]  No, I would say that there are Protestant sects that are more properly Christian than others.
[00:35:47]  Is the church divided amongst those branches?
[00:35:51]  Today, yes.
[00:35:52]  Okay, did anyone in those seven councils have that idea about the nature of the church?
[00:35:57]  No, but I also don't think that My church is not in communion with the Anglican communion.
[00:36:05]  We're not Anglicans.
[00:36:07]  we're Anglican Catholics.
[00:36:08]  We hold ourselves...
[00:36:09]  you about the first thousand years of Christianity.
[00:36:12]  Yes, we have.
[00:36:15]  No, you're not, because you couldn't name anybody that had your ecclesiology of those.
[00:36:21]  I don't think we're having the same conversation.
[00:36:24]  Maybe you should get on this conversation and answer the question, because that's what we're doing here today.
[00:36:28]  The terminology you're using is confusing to me.
[00:36:31]  It's common.
[00:36:32]  It's natural.
[00:36:34]  The ecclesiology that the people the first thousand years had, did any one of them have a branch theory or that the church is divided amongst a bunch of groups?
[00:36:44]  Again, I don't think we're having the same conversation.
[00:36:46]  I think we got off base at a certain point here.
[00:36:48]  Does your ecclesiology have any basis in the first thousand years?
[00:36:51]  Yes, we trace all of our ecclesiology back to the first thousand years.
[00:36:54]  Name a church father or a council that has your branch three view of the church.
[00:37:00]  I think branch theory is where we're having a disagreement here.
[00:37:02]  I've never heard that term before.
[00:37:04]  It's a classic Anglican term for the nature of the church.
[00:37:07]  That's how they justified their Reformation position.
[00:37:09]  So tell me one church father or council that has that position about the church.
[00:37:13]  It's a very simple question.
[00:37:13]  Off the top of my head, I'd say.
[00:37:17]  Off the top of my head, I can't give you an answer to the question.
[00:37:19]  What Jay's asking him, for people out there listening, about ahistorical, when a Protestant claims...
[00:37:37]  They might agree in abstracto, which is why I called it abstract enlightenment rationalism.
[00:37:42]  They might agree in abstracto with what was going on with the Orthodox or with the Catholics.
[00:37:47]  They're always going to favor the Orthodox because none of these groups like the Pope or the unity required by a papacy.
[00:37:54]  But what Jay was asking here is, For it to be true Christianity, true, true Christianity in its truest sense, it's got to be one holy Catholic and apostolic.
[00:38:04]  There's a problem for the one mark and the Catholic mark for Orthodox, but Orthodox are actually Christian insofar as they have the seven sacraments, and all of their bishops can be traced back to one of the apostles.
[00:38:20]  That's what he was asking about ecclesiology.
[00:38:22]  So when they say, well, I agree with this, but no Protestant has...
[00:38:29]  We have the seven sacraments and we have bishops.
[00:38:31]  I'm going to get very reductive and simplify everything to a ridiculous degree and ask questions that maybe are ridiculously rudimentary for the average Christian.
[00:38:41]  When it comes to Mosaic Law, laws of Leviticus, do you all follow those or are they considered archaic?
[00:38:51]  How does the Old Testament play a role in how you live your lives and what rules you follow?
[00:38:55]  We're under the New Covenant.
[00:38:58]  So what does that mean?
[00:38:59]  I just don't know.
[00:39:00]  Like, the New Testament?
[00:39:02]  So the laws of Leviticus don't apply?
[00:39:04]  Yeah, the laws of Leviticus are specifically made for a very specific period in Jewish history.
[00:39:09]  And Jesus does not come to erase the law.
[00:39:12]  He comes to fulfill the law.
[00:39:14]  So his position in the hierarchy is not as somebody who washes things away.
[00:39:19]  It's somebody who fulfills it.
[00:39:21]  The law was basically a series of things that Jews had to do to stay in communion with God.
[00:39:26]  Christ gives us a different set of rules.
[00:39:28]  That doesn't mean we ignore everything, but it means we take his authority over the old law.
[00:39:33]  So does that mean that when it comes to all of the Old Testament's rules, are there some that remain based on Jesus said outright, these are still to remain and these are not to remain?
[00:39:46]  How do you, and this is not a question, how do you know which, I don't imagine that Jesus addressed literally every single rule or law.
[00:39:53]  How do you know which ones?
[00:39:54]  Probably one way we disagree with him is to a degree, not totally, but, I mean, Orthodox and Catholics agree that there is an oral tradition that's passed down from the apostles.
[00:40:03]  So you have the written text of the New Testament, which the early church didn't have a Bible.
[00:40:07]  They had some documents, they had some letters, and they had tradition, and they had the church service.
[00:40:12]  So everything was kind of done in a liturgical service way.
[00:40:15]  You would be getting catechized orally, and then eventually the Bible gets collected in later centuries.
[00:40:22]  To be the canon.
[00:40:23]  So basically tradition and the Bible lets you know what things carry over and what don't.
[00:40:28]  And that's one of the reasons why the councils have church law.
[00:40:31]  So church law kind of helps interpret that.
[00:40:34]  So I have a question.
[00:40:34]  I'm probably pronouncing this wrong, but how do you all view Huderites?
[00:40:38]  Is that the word?
[00:40:40]  Anabaptists?
[00:40:40]  Yeah.
[00:40:41]  How do you all view them?
[00:40:42]  Are they wrong?
[00:40:43]  We would say they're heterodox, yeah.
[00:40:45]  They're outside of the gym.
[00:40:49]  It's like Amish.
[00:40:52]  So this is going to be a kindergartner-level urban liberals' argument for the Christians right now when I say this, but is it not one of the instructions of God to be fruitful and multiply?
[00:41:04]  Yes, sure.
[00:41:05]  So we're having a conversation over what is the superior denomination.
[00:41:09]  Well, I just looked it up.
[00:41:12]  I don't think Mormons count.
[00:41:13]  No offense to Mormons.
[00:41:14]  I think for the purpose of this debate, Mormons are a different area, right?
[00:41:21]  They don't believe in the same God that we do.
[00:41:23]  Pentecostals have a 2.1 fertility rate, and Hooterites have 6 to 7 fertility rate.
[00:41:30]  After that, conservative Protestants, 1.8, Catholics, 1.9, Orthodox, 1.9, Jehovah's Witness, slightly less than 2, Protestants, 1.5 to 1.6, liberal Protestants.
[00:41:43]  1.5 and unaffiliated Christians 1.3 to 1.8.
[00:41:48]  So the Pentecostals and Hutterites, according to just a cursory search, are the only actual groups that are being fruitful and multiplying.
[00:41:58]  And that's, to be honest, only the Hutterites, the Amish, Anabaptists, everybody else ain't having kids.
[00:42:05]  I think traditional Catholics are having kids.
[00:42:09]  Just a cursory search, it is around 1.92.
[00:42:12]  I thought it was a little higher than that.
[00:42:13]  There's not much of a difference between our three sects.
[00:42:15]  Y 'all ain't having kids.
[00:42:17]  Y 'all are supposed to be fruitful and multiply.
[00:42:18]  What are you doing?
[00:42:19]  If you go to the Tridentine Latin Mass, it's a very different group.
[00:42:21]  I'm going to ask Chechi P this.
[00:42:23]  It's going to be above replacement.
[00:42:25]  I do really quickly while he's doing that.
[00:42:27]  I want to come back because I had an opportunity to sit down and think about the branch theory thing.
[00:42:30]  Do you not have a Russian Orthodox, a Greek Orthodox, an Orthodox church in America?
[00:42:35]  Those are not branches.
[00:42:36]  It's not at all the same ecclesiology of Anglican branch theory.
[00:42:40]  Well, first of all, I would point out that branch theory is not dogmatic.
[00:42:42]  I was just looking for whatever was.
[00:42:46]  I know, but the Anglican position is that we were part of the one true holy apostolic Catholic church.
[00:42:51]  And now you're not.
[00:42:52]  And then that church...
[00:42:55]  How do you determine it?
[00:42:56]  The same way that Catholics and Orthodox do.
[00:42:58]  No, it's very different.
[00:43:00]  We no longer have a Pope, but we have councils of bishops.
[00:43:03]  So how do you determine the doctrine?
[00:43:04]  We have councils of bishops.
[00:43:06]  Okay, but what's a dogma like?
[00:43:08]  Do you accept icons?
[00:43:09]  No.
[00:43:10]  Well, yes, we're not iconoclasts.
[00:43:12]  Well, but is it a dogma or is it an opinion?
[00:43:14]  We hold the same position as the Roman Catholic Church.
[00:43:17]  No, you don't, because Orthodox and Roman Catholics excommunicate people that don't believe in imagery, and most Protestants historically have allowed it to be something that's an opinion.
[00:43:26]  There is a lot of pious opinion.
[00:43:28]  So is it a dogma or not?
[00:43:30]  That's the question.
[00:43:30]  I'm not sure exactly with icons.
[00:43:32]  I don't believe that we excommunicate people for thinking that icons are bad.
[00:43:36]  So it's not a dogma, and thus many of the basics are not actually settled in your position.
[00:43:40]  It depends on if we're in...
[00:43:50]  But the problem with your ecclesiology is that there are no leaders, right?
[00:43:54]  We have bishops.
[00:43:55]  We have archbishops.
[00:43:56]  I don't know why we keep coming back to this.
[00:43:57]  No bishops that can trace their lineage all the way down.
[00:43:59]  Yes, we do.
[00:44:00]  We can trace back to Augustine of Britain, and we can trace back to Aristobalis.
[00:44:04]  Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
[00:44:06]  Our bishops trace back to the 1st century A.D. in Britain.
[00:44:09]  Okay, that's a broken...
[00:44:10]  If you have a totally different...
[00:44:11]  According to your...
[00:44:14]  The church remained in Britain even after the Saxons got there.
[00:44:17]  You're identifying as an Anglican Catholic today?
[00:44:19]  Yes.
[00:44:19]  Or you're identifying as a Methodist?
[00:44:21]  I'm identifying as a Methodist who is inquiring into the Anglican Catholic Church and is getting confirmed later this year.
[00:44:25]  I mean, this is part of the problem.
[00:44:27]  No, that's good.
[00:44:27]  Right now we're having a historical discussion.
[00:44:29]  I am a historian, but we're having a conversation about history right now.
[00:44:32]  So your church recognizes the rest of ballots of Britain.
[00:44:35]  Your church recognizes the rest of ballots of Britain.
[00:44:36]  You're a historian, but you didn't know about the branch theory?
[00:44:39]  I'm not a religious historian.
[00:44:41]  I'm a historian.
[00:44:42]  I'm a medieval historian, specifically.
[00:44:44]  So, when we're looking at this, Aristobalis is the earliest we can go back with the Anglican Catholic Church because of the union between the churches in Kent and the churches in Scotia.
[00:44:55]  You're assuming your ecclesiology.
[00:44:56]  No, I'm not.
[00:44:57]  No, that's fair.
[00:44:59]  You're not a faithful representative.
[00:45:02]  Both of your churches acknowledge Aristobalis.
[00:45:04]  No, we don't.
[00:45:04]  We don't acknowledge your ecclesiology.
[00:45:06]  You understand that from the Orthodox perspective, it doesn't matter if you have a laying on of hands If you leave the faith of the Church, none of that from the Orthodox perspective even matters.
[00:45:16]  We didn't leave the faith of the Church.
[00:45:17]  The Roman Catholic Church left us.
[00:45:18]  That's our position.
[00:45:20]  I know your position.
[00:45:21]  I'm saying from our position, our ecclesiology doesn't recognize your ecclesiology, nor does his.

=== Apostolic Sacramental Christianity (15:25) ===

[00:45:26]  They think that Anglican orders are invalid via Leo XIII.
[00:45:29]  that's because that's what's convenient to their theology.
[00:45:32]  It doesn't actually have any sort of.
[00:45:33]  I'm saying that neither of us recognizes your lineage and I'm, We can trace it all the way back to us.
[00:45:41]  Only on the basis of your ecclesiology and presupposing the Protestant lineage.
[00:45:45]  No, we have an ordination that goes back to Augustine.
[00:45:48]  On the basis of your ecclesiology.
[00:45:50]  People out there need to understand that there is such a thing as apostolic sacramental Christianity.
[00:45:56]  The Roman Catholic Church, Ratzinger wrote on this in 2004 and in the 90s as well.
[00:46:01]  We acknowledge that you can call The Orthodox Church is churches with a capital C. They have bishops.
[00:46:07]  They go back to apostles.
[00:46:09]  They have seven sacraments acknowledged by the church.
[00:46:13]  They're valid sacraments.
[00:46:14]  You wouldn't be licit for a Catholic to receive there, or vice versa.
[00:46:18]  but there is a shared ecclesiology.
[00:46:21]  What people don't understand and need to about Protestantism They're an exception to the rule.
[00:46:28]  But of all the sects of Protestantism, they don't share any ecclesiology with us.
[00:46:34]  So they'll say, oh, this is a dogma.
[00:46:35]  What's a dogma?
[00:46:36]  This isn't something that traces back to the Acta Apostolic Assetis.
[00:46:39]  It's not something that the bishops always and everywhere taught together as a church.
[00:46:44]  So we have to just say this, it's not to be exclusive, but, but Protestantism is a lay mass of the religion.
[00:46:52]  You guys believe in a Trinitarian view, Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[00:46:59]  so so it is technically Christian but except beyond that But other than that, Protestantism is an abstract idea.
[00:47:12]  I like the idea of Jesus.
[00:47:14]  I like this book that the Roman Catholic Church...
[00:47:18]  No, you're talking about Protestantism.
[00:47:21]  That is a big tent.
[00:47:22]  You're part of that.
[00:47:24]  Yes, but the Anglican Protestantism is very different from the Lutheran Protestantism, which is very different from the Reformed Protestantism.
[00:47:29]  Which was my original point, right?
[00:47:30]  There's not actually any clear unity there.
[00:47:32]  It's all over the place.
[00:47:33]  No Protestant is going to tell you that there is Protestant unity.
[00:47:37]  Thank you.
[00:47:38]  They're gonna tell you Council on Nicaea.
[00:47:42]  The church must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
[00:47:45]  Each of those four marks has a very specific quiddity.
[00:47:48]  That doesn't mean that we have to be in communion with one another, obviously.
[00:47:51]  It means you have to have those marks.
[00:47:52]  One, holy, catholic.
[00:47:53]  We do!
[00:47:54]  We have bishops.
[00:47:55]  We have the sacraments.
[00:47:56]  We have the history.
[00:47:57]  Is Bishop T.D. Jakes a bishop?
[00:47:58]  He claims to be one.
[00:47:59]  I don't know who T.D. Jakes is.
[00:48:01]  Oh, come on.
[00:48:03]  Woman, thou art loose.
[00:48:04]  He's the black modalist preacher who says he's Bishop T.D. Jakes.
[00:48:08]  Is he a bishop?
[00:48:10]  Doesn't sound like he is.
[00:48:11]  Oh, okay.
[00:48:11]  But you're a bishop.
[00:48:13]  Your church has bishops.
[00:48:13]  My church has bishops.
[00:48:14]  And why is that?
[00:48:15]  Because they can trace their ordination back to Augustine.
[00:48:18]  It's like the 87th time the question's been asked, and he's answered the exact same thing.
[00:48:22]  But he's not understanding the question.
[00:48:25]  You guys aren't asking a question that makes sense.
[00:48:27]  Why do you have ordination?
[00:48:28]  Because we do.
[00:48:29]  Okay, okay, so I think there's an interesting view between the three of you and what a superior denomination would be, and it's largely about what you think to be true to the religion as opposed to what the religion does and what its adherents do.
[00:48:48]  I don't want to diminish that because obviously that's extremely important to know the truth and the history of things.
[00:48:54]  But from my perspective...
[00:48:56]  I take a look at the adherence to the religion and what they're doing and whether they can actually follow what they're being told to do, and it largely feels like they mostly don't.
[00:49:05]  I mean, again, like if I was going to go off the sheer numbers— The problem is Gandhi.
[00:49:14]  Gandhi said the same thing.
[00:49:15]  He said, if I ever met a perfect Christian, I would go be one.
[00:49:18]  There's some validity to the proposition by our Lord himself that you judge a tree by its roots.
[00:49:23]  My point is this.
[00:49:25]  So I looked up the fastest growing denominations.
[00:49:27]  The independent network of charismatic Christianity is the largest growth, apparently, followed by Pentecostal churches.
[00:49:35]  Good God.
[00:49:36]  Pentecostals.
[00:49:38]  Have, like, between 3% to 5% growth.
[00:49:41]  You understand the inverse proportionalism at work there, though.
[00:49:45]  They're small, so they can grow really, really fast.
[00:49:47]  If a town's got 100 people and it gets two new people, it just increased its population by 2%.
[00:49:53]  Roman Catholics also.
[00:49:56]  It's terrifying.
[00:49:57]  Also, the way the debate is framed, which is not bad, but superior begs the question of, like, what standard?
[00:50:04]  Like, what's the metric for judging what makes it superior?
[00:50:07]  I would argue the superior religion is the one that brings the most people to salvation.
[00:50:13]  Yeah.
[00:50:13]  Well, but maybe truth is first and foremost, I think, for most of us, or all of us here.
[00:50:19]  Because we assume that the true religion will bear the fruits that go along with what's true, first and foremost.
[00:50:26]  So just having numbers isn't necessarily an indicator of the true religion because you can have a lot of people who convert to a false religion or who think that they're converting and it's really just like Santeria or something like that in South America.
[00:50:40]  That's not authentic, right?
[00:50:41]  So to be fair, I want to make sure I get the numbers right.
[00:50:44]  I just looked up Catholic to make the point about inverse.
[00:50:47]  3.9 million people in 2023 became Catholic, whereas Pentecostal was 56,000.
[00:50:53]  So it's correct.
[00:50:55]  And I'll look up the other sects as well because likely the same thing for Orthodox.
[00:50:59]  they're much larger, so the percentage-wise is going to be smaller.
[00:51:02]  But I guess my ultimate concern is...
[00:51:12]  Obviously, the truth of the religion is going to matter because, like you said, if they're practicing Santeria, then they're not going anywhere.
[00:51:18]  But there's also the fact that, I mean, largely among all of your sex, people are not having kids at all.
[00:51:24]  I should say they're having kids, but they're having not enough.
[00:51:26]  So you can keep converting, but eventually...
[00:51:32]  I mean, where does this ultimately go?
[00:51:34]  It's a fair metric in some political sense, but it's also, soteriologically, who goes to heaven or not, it's a bit of a crass metric.
[00:51:43]  We should be having lots of kids, and obviously Roman Catholicism is marked as the only solidified version of Christianity on Earth that stayed against contraception.
[00:51:57]  After the Anglican Lambeth conferences of 1910, 1920, 1930, where all the other sects of Christianity capitulated.
[00:52:05]  But it's true, and it's fair enough for people to say, particularly after Vatican II and the liberalizing popular trends among Catholics, almost as many Catholics contracept as Protestants or Orthodox.
[00:52:18]  This isn't quite true if you go to a Tridentian Latin Mass.
[00:52:21]  You're going to see big, big, big families.
[00:52:25]  Which Jay pointed out.
[00:52:26]  But I do think that everyone should, each of the three of us here, should have a segment to state some sort of answer to the posit, if that's cool.
[00:52:38]  What's your case for why you are the best version of Christianity, best major segment?
[00:52:44]  I don't hold the position that we are.
[00:52:46]  We just hold the position that you're not.
[00:52:50]  Okay.
[00:52:50]  That's incredibly weak.
[00:52:52]  And that's fine.
[00:52:53]  We have a lot of Mennonites around here, and they rock.
[00:52:56]  They're awesome.
[00:52:57]  They have animals.
[00:52:58]  They sell food.
[00:52:59]  It's always, like, real food.
[00:53:01]  No chemicals, no garbage.
[00:53:02]  They got big families.
[00:53:04]  And I looked it up.
[00:53:06]  The moderate Mennonites, there's a shop not too far away, 20 Minutes.
[00:53:10]  We used to go to all the time.
[00:53:11]  They got ice cream and cheeses, and it's all this really great stuff.
[00:53:14]  I love it.
[00:53:15]  That seems pretty cool.
[00:53:16]  You know?
[00:53:17]  If I was trying to figure out...
[00:53:20]  Yeah.
[00:53:20]  Well, my point is largely like looking at the world today and the state of things, they make a pretty good argument.
[00:53:29]  Don't eat garbage.
[00:53:30]  Be with your family.
[00:53:31]  They tend to honor their families, their communities, their parents.
[00:53:34]  They go to church.
[00:53:34]  They maintain this.
[00:53:35]  They have lots of kids.
[00:53:37]  I know they're small.
[00:53:38]  It's only a few million.
[00:53:40]  Can I address that?
[00:53:41]  Because there's two points.
[00:53:42]  It actually addressed the point I was trying to make to you earlier.
[00:53:44]  So, like, if you go back to the early church, there was a group called the Arians, and the Arians believed that Jesus was a creature.
[00:53:50]  But the Arians were also very into morality and pushing morals.
[00:53:54]  So they were, at least outwardly speaking, moral.
[00:53:57]  Kind of like Joseph's Witnesses, you could say.
[00:53:59]  But Arians had apostolic succession.
[00:54:02]  But they lost the church and the faith, even though they had the mechanical succession.
[00:54:07]  Likewise, Christianity can't be identified as Hutterites or Amish because it's a historic religion.
[00:54:15]  So it has to be tied to the historic succession, not just of the bishops, but the So when you look at the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th centuries, you don't see anything like Anglo-Catholicism.
[00:54:33]  You don't see anything like Hutterites or Amish.
[00:54:35]  You see people coming together, having councils with bishops, with the Eucharist, with monastics, with, you know, the episcopacy, with, you know, relics, with all the things that characterize Christianity.
[00:54:50]  To be fair, though, I would argue that in those time periods, people were more likely to live and practice and worship as the Hutterites do.
[00:54:57]  No, no, the church's liturgical worship that you see with icons and incense is literally out of the Old Testament worship with...
[00:55:19]  Typically speaking, Baptists don't believe in an altar for the purpose of the Eucharistic offering.
[00:55:24]  Right.
[00:55:24]  So Baptists believe in it being a purely symbolic remembrance ceremony.
[00:55:28]  But the early church is doing the liturgy.
[00:55:37]  I want to be clear, everything he just described as what early church Catholics did applies to Anglican Catholicism.
[00:55:43]  It doesn't, though.
[00:55:43]  Okay, it doesn't.
[00:55:44]  I don't think he knows what Anglican Catholicism is.
[00:55:46]  You didn't know the basics of Anglican ecclesiology, so you're not going to lecture me.
[00:55:49]  I was not aware of a non-dogmatic ecclesiastical position.
[00:55:51]  A very well-known thing.
[00:55:53]  That is not dogmatic.
[00:55:54]  It's your common doctrine of ecclesiology.
[00:55:56]  You didn't know it.
[00:55:57]  You're not going to lecture me on Anglican ecclesiology.
[00:55:58]  We also don't hold to the 39- Because there's not dogma, as we showed a minute ago.
[00:56:04]  The marks of natural religion, qua religion, are really important here, and they do set off a kind of rift where the Protestants are alone.
[00:56:15]  They're a voice crying in the wilderness, and we have to acknowledge that, and that's what I tried to acknowledge at the very beginning.
[00:56:19]  The basic marks of religion, even the pagan Greeks had some of these.
[00:56:24]  You would say Buddhism doesn't, Protestantism doesn't, but even some of the polytheists.
[00:56:29]  They have things like smells and bells.
[00:56:31]  Having an altar is something from even pagan Greek religion, but for sacramental Christians, the Jews had them.
[00:56:40]  Right, sacramentals, sacrifice, blood sacrifice, which really, from Judaism to Christianity, became sacrament.
[00:56:49]  Precepts.
[00:56:50]  The daily things you have to do.
[00:56:52]  What are the five precepts of Catholicism?
[00:56:54]  A sacerdotal order, ritual, or what we call liturgy.
[00:57:01]  These are things that are lacking in Protestantism.
[00:57:04]  I'm not saying this to be rude or exclusive, but when you're dealing with what I actually say makes the Roman Catholic faith the superior form of Christianity, is at the first ecumenical council ever.
[00:57:16]  Which was Nicaea, where we defined the most important stuff about the Trinity.
[00:57:21]  There were four marks of the Church laid out, that Christ promised us the Church would never defect, it would be this way until the end of time, it would be one.
[00:57:30]  So there can't be competing sects.
[00:57:32]  There can be arguments within one sect, but there can't be actual different competing sects.
[00:57:37]  Holy, this means sacraments.
[00:57:41]  Catholic, this means worldwide.
[00:57:43]  And, of course, apostolic, this means that there has to be a direct line of every bishop in the world back to one of the apostles.
[00:57:51]  We would say, with all due respect, Protestantism, by and large, lacks all four.
[00:57:56]  Now, we do not make the same claim.
[00:57:58]  The Church doesn't make the same claim about Orthodox Christianity.
[00:58:02]  They have real bishops.
[00:58:03]  That the Church acknowledges, and that means that they have all seven sacraments.
[00:58:07]  Sevenness means complete.
[00:58:08]  So there's a different conversation that needs to happen between Catholics.
[00:58:13]  You heard it because we're arguing about the first seven councils versus a kind of quater Once again, we acknowledge and hold the first seven councils.
[00:58:22]  But you don't, as I showed from the Seventh Ecumenical Council, you fundamentally reject the thing that that council was about.
[00:58:28]  You said it's audiophora.
[00:58:29]  They say you're excommunicated if you don't accept images.
[00:58:31]  So you don't accept the Seventh Council.
[00:58:33]  Let's do it in name.
[00:58:34]  In theory and in name.
[00:58:37]  You just admitted your mistake.
[00:58:38]  That was what you said a minute ago, dude.
[00:58:39]  If I said that we have...
[00:58:44]  You don't know what these terms even mean.
[00:58:46]  Okay, no.
[00:58:46]  If I said that we don't agree with the Seventh Council, then I misspoke because of some...
[00:58:51]  No, you said that...
[00:58:55]  And you said, no, we don't believe that.
[00:58:57]  Then you don't believe the Seventh Council because it does that.
[00:59:00]  It's a simple point.
[00:59:01]  Because we don't excommunicate people for not Because you don't have ecclesiology.
[00:59:06]  Listen.
[00:59:08]  I want to bring in another...
[00:59:12]  War Pig, with a super chat saying, Baptists don't pray to middlemen and call them saints, and we don't pay for our salvation by giving Rome our coin.
[00:59:20]  Long live American independent Baptists.
[00:59:23]  What say y 'all?
[00:59:24]  That's got to be a joke.
[00:59:25]  Rock and roll, dude.
[00:59:26]  Yeah, that's a troll account.
[00:59:28]  So in 1 Timothy 4, Paul says to Timothy, be good, Timothy, because you will save those around you.
[00:59:35]  Does that mean that Paul thinks Timothy is the Savior?
[00:59:38]  No.
[00:59:39]  Timothy is participating in, by cooperating with God, helping and being a conduit of grace to those around him.
[00:59:45]  In the same way, Mary and other saints are not God.
[00:59:49]  They're conduits that pray for us and help us.
[00:59:52]  Exactly the way Paul's talking to Timothy.
[00:59:54]  If you've ever asked your buddy to pray for you, I'm going through something.
[00:59:57]  The saints thing is absolutely retarded when Protestants spurg out about this.
[01:00:03]  It's literally asking the saints in heaven to pray for us.
[01:00:06]  They're closer to God.
[01:00:07]  It's the church triumphant rather than the people that, if I ask you to pray for me, you're still church militant.
[01:00:13]  It's a closer prayer I don't want to go in circles on that over and over and over again with everyone saying the same thing.
[01:00:32]  So I got a question.
[01:00:34]  Do each of you think you will meet each other in heaven or no?

=== Beliefs Beyond Borders (03:42) ===

[01:00:38]  Yes.
[01:00:39]  My church does.
[01:00:41]  Well, I guess it's true if you think that, right?
[01:00:43]  If it's more liberal, does that not get true?
[01:00:45]  It's not liberal.
[01:00:47]  It's a liberal position.
[01:00:49]  It's not liberal.
[01:00:51]  Liberal in a different sense.
[01:00:52]  You're a Trinitarian.
[01:00:54]  You're a Trinitarian.
[01:00:55]  I'm a Trinitarian.
[01:00:56]  We have all the same sacraments.
[01:00:58]  My apostolic succession goes back just as far as yours and yours.
[01:01:02]  All you've done is assert your position.
[01:01:04]  It's a true position.
[01:01:06]  You haven't actually rejected it.
[01:01:07]  I've already showed you twice.
[01:01:09]  I'm kidding, don't actually.
[01:01:11]  You have said that TikTok.
[01:01:15]  Your argument seems to be Your argument seems to be that if somebody doesn't have icons in their house, they should be excommunicated.
[01:01:24]  No, that is so dumb.
[01:01:26]  That is not at all what I said.
[01:01:27]  We are not iconoclasts.
[01:01:28]  Do you think these two gentlemen will meet you in heaven?
[01:01:31]  We don't make personal judgments on people's destinies.
[01:01:34]  All we know is that we believe that the Orthodox Church is the ark.
[01:01:38]  It is the mystical body of Christ.
[01:01:39]  And so it's our duty to tell people to join it.
[01:01:41]  We can't say what God will judge at the end of time and at the grave.
[01:01:45]  So let's put it this way.
[01:01:46]  Outside of them individually, you think it is less likely that people who don't follow your religion will find their way.
[01:01:52]  Less likely.
[01:01:52]  And then how do you guys view it, Catholics?
[01:01:55]  Highly similar.
[01:01:56]  Almost identical view.
[01:01:57]  We do believe you have to be in communion with Rome.
[01:02:01]  But there are exceptions like baptism by desire.
[01:02:05]  Does everyone agree that the Holy Land belongs to Rome?
[01:02:09]  Rome?
[01:02:09]  Depends on how you define Rome.
[01:02:11]  Big parts of the Holy Land belong to the Orthodox Church.
[01:02:15]  The Orthodox Church is the third largest landowner in Israel.
[01:02:18]  Oh, wow.
[01:02:19]  The Jerusalem Patriarch, it would probably be the best claimant.
[01:02:22]  In fact, the last...
[01:02:24]  It was a joke from Seamus.
[01:02:24]  Why not?
[01:02:25]  Over the Israel-Palestine debate.
[01:02:28]  Belongs to Christians.
[01:02:29]  At one time in the Middle Ages, it was a Byzantine.
[01:02:32]  It was part of the Byzantine Empire.
[01:02:34]  So it was at one point a Christian colony, so to speak.
[01:02:39]  There's a chat here I'm going to read that's somewhat insulting to me.
[01:02:47]  H. Bronson says, this was always the problem with Tim hosting the debate.
[01:02:50]  You know it's going to turn into something he brings up with no.
[01:02:54]  Epistemic Foundation.
[01:02:57]  My view is kind of like, yeah, probably because I don't follow any of these religions or I do believe in God.
[01:03:05]  I guess theist is probably the best word, not deist.
[01:03:09]  But if I can't be convinced, if you can't convince – if you find somebody like, yeah, they believe in God, it's like, okay, here's why we're correct.
[01:03:19]  If it's esoteric and hard to understand and you can't easily explain why your religion is correct – To someone like me, then how do you convert people?
[01:03:28]  That's a Muslim argument.
[01:03:29]  Muslims will say, our religion is true because it's simpler.
[01:03:32]  But then when you get into the religion, you realize, oh, actually, there's a million hadiths that you've got to learn, and it's really complex.
[01:03:38]  I'm saying, how do you convince someone who doesn't know about the ecumenical councils and all of that stuff?
[01:03:43]  So I hear a lot of very esoteric terms that I'm like, unum sanctum.
[01:03:49]  I don't know what that is.
[01:03:51]  I'm not trying to be evangelical right now.
[01:03:54]  None of us really are trying to be evangelical because when you bring everyone into a room, the Catholic and the Orthodox are going to be debating councils and specifically what the constitutions require.
[01:04:04]  So it sounds boring and stupid, but it's actually important.

=== Power Pope: Francis and His Influence (09:07) ===

[01:04:07]  The way anyone would evangelize, I guess, since you do have a more secular audience, is by saying Christianity is demonstrably true.
[01:04:18]  Demonstrably sui generis.
[01:04:20]  But I'll pause and say, I think it's probably like 85% Christian of different denominations that watch.
[01:04:26]  Okay, yeah, well, fair enough.
[01:04:28]  Very few atheists, actually.
[01:04:30]  You have to ask which version of Christianity, to the 85% that are already convinced correctly that Christianity is true, you have to say which of the competing sects...
[01:04:53]  That's what we would say if we're kind of putting it in broad, forward-facing terms, and that's precisely what it is.
[01:04:59]  I see recently with the new pope.
[01:05:05]  He's from Chicago, and a lot of Chicago jokes.
[01:05:09]  There was another cardinal who had made comments about supporting the LGBTQ community.
[01:05:14]  I forgot.
[01:05:14]  He was the guy from the Philippines.
[01:05:16]  And there was big concern over his views on overtly political, cultural political issues.
[01:05:24]  And to me, I look at that and I'm like, how could there be truth in an ever-evolving political climate that tries to adhere to politics?
[01:05:33]  Well, that's the biggest problem with the Catholic Church historically is it's very intertwined with politics.
[01:05:37]  It always has been.
[01:05:38]  Personally, my opinion is that the Catholic Church is trying to maintain as large a base as possible, and so you end up with people like Francis, and I forgot the name of this guy, this Filipino guy who said some, like, all these gay websites, I mean literally gay websites, not insulting them.
[01:05:56]  Vatican.va?
[01:05:59]  The gay website?
[01:06:00]  No, there's like Pink News.
[01:06:02]  I think it was in, like, LGBT Nation or whatever, were saying, like, this is the good guy.
[01:06:06]  He should be the Pope.
[01:06:07]  Because he was saying things like, it's time to recognize gay marriage or whatever, or, like, things like that, going beyond what Francis had said with blessings.
[01:06:14]  The Vaticanistas all said that this is what, between him and the Cardinal of Bologna and some of the other far-left cardinals that were considered papavili, popable, at the last conclave last month.
[01:06:27]  This is specifically why they weren't selected, even though they're considered most popularly, because we tried this with Francis, and it's true.
[01:06:36]  I would never deny, as probably one of Francis' best-known American lay critics, who is Catholic, the Church is trying a bad approach.
[01:06:47]  To winning over converts since a little bit before Vatican II.
[01:06:52]  And what they're actually finding now, and the boomers and the dinosaurs in the cardinalit are finding to their chagrin, is that they're really mad about it.
[01:07:00]  Francis hated it.
[01:07:00]  He said these people have psychological problems.
[01:07:03]  They like to go to the Latin mass.
[01:07:04]  They like to go back to the mass of the ages.
[01:07:07]  This is what I see in the trends as well, that we're finding that Gen Z, younger Gen Z, not older Gen Z, are finding faith in Jesus Christ.
[01:07:15]  That polling was non-denominational.
[01:07:17]  It was just – they were saying it.
[01:07:19]  The men are leaning more conservative.
[01:07:21]  And then – I suppose it's a factor in that Catholicism is so big.
[01:07:26]  And when the pope – when the pope passed away and they were choosing the new pope, it's the biggest story in the world, so I can understand it.
[01:07:32]  It just feels like they're lying to people to try and build up membership numbers.
[01:07:36]  That's what it feels like.
[01:07:38]  I agree with you.
[01:07:39]  You want to get into lies of the Roman Catholic Church?
[01:07:42]  Like the donation of Constantine, for example?
[01:07:44]  That time that his church told the world that Constantine gave them the entire Western Empire to be their domain?
[01:07:51]  To clarify, I'm not saying this of Catholics.
[01:07:53]  I'm saying that the current leadership seemed to be their political strategy of, we need more converts, so let's say what we have to say to get them to conversion.
[01:08:01]  And my church is doing the opposite thing.
[01:08:02]  We separated from the larger church because we felt that they were doing that.
[01:08:07]  Again, separating, as I said earlier, makes you not a part of that thing.
[01:08:11]  Sure, what were you going to say?
[01:08:12]  So the point that I raised earlier about the papacy.
[01:08:17]  All right, let's move on.
[01:08:18]  The papacy.
[01:08:19]  We didn't separate.
[01:08:20]  We believe they left us.
[01:08:21]  And we believe they left us?
[01:08:23]  That's why I did an internal critique, which you don't understand.
[01:08:25]  No, you didn't make...
[01:08:29]  What you were saying was, you excommunicate iconoclasts.
[01:08:31]  The basic language, the basic terms of this debate.
[01:08:44]  It was mandated all that time for those centuries to be necessary to be saved.
[01:08:49]  Which the Vatican no longer believes for salvific purposes.
[01:08:53]  They might theoretically still believe it.
[01:08:55]  Who knows?
[01:08:56]  But I think Vatican II contradicts that with the de-Christianizing principles.
[01:09:01]  But the point is that ever since the papal states, ever since the 11th century, especially with the Gregorian reforms, the papacy has united itself with and tied itself into politics at an intense level.
[01:09:13]  And that's not all totally the fault of Rome or just power seeking.
[01:09:17]  You had the collapse of the Roman Empire, which led to the vacuum that allowed the papacy to step in.
[01:09:22]  But by the time that we get to Dictatus Pape, just a couple of things that we have in this document, the pope alone can use the imperial insignia.
[01:09:30]  All princes in the world must kiss the pope's feet.
[01:09:33]  This is the only name in the world.
[01:09:34]  He alone may depose all emperors.
[01:09:36]  He alone may confirm all bishops.
[01:09:38]  the Roman sea has never erred and will never err unto the end of time.
[01:09:42]  The Roman church is founded by God alone.
[01:09:44]  The Roman church alone can call itself universal.
[01:09:46]  It can alone depose or reinstate bishops.
[01:09:48]  Now, already we've seen that from dictatus papi in the 11th century.
[01:09:52]  That's a contradiction with the way the councils acted and operated in the first several centuries.
[01:09:57]  So the Roman bishop becomes a geopolitical world power, particularly in the 11th century, comes to its nadir, you could say, a few centuries later.
[01:10:07]  And it is still...
[01:10:19]  Explain Vatican II.
[01:10:21]  So this is the council in the 1960s that was called by John XXIII originally to update, to make the Roman sea and the Roman church more amenable to the world.
[01:10:31]  A giornamento was his terminology, to open the doors and to let the world into the church.
[01:10:39]  No, no.
[01:10:39]  So Vatican II was, I mean, it's true that it was called by John XXIII.
[01:10:44]  But what happened at the end of Vatican I in the 1870s is the Franco-Prussian War interrupted it.
[01:10:51]  Vatican I is famous.
[01:10:54]  If we look at both of the last two councils of the Roman Catholic Church, Vatican I and Vatican II, they're both vastly misunderstood.
[01:11:00]  The reason Vatican I is vastly misunderstood is because the Franco-Prussian War interrupted it literally in between the two goals of Vatican I, laying out the power of the Pope, clarifying the power of the Pope as it had always been for 2,000 years, 1,800 years, and laying out the power of the bishops because it is a collegial relationship.
[01:11:20]  That the Pope has to them, even though he is the Prince of the Apostles.
[01:11:24]  It got interrupted and separated by the Franco-Prussian War.
[01:11:29]  So Vatican II, so it ended up looking, by the way, like just the Pope's powers were laid out.
[01:11:35]  The powers of the bishops were never edumbrated because of the sudden conclusion of that.
[01:11:40]  It was never actually concluded until John XXIII concluded it.
[01:11:45]  Almost 100 years later, 85 years later, right before he said, okay, we need to have a Vatican II to get to what the power of the bishops are.
[01:11:53]  What was Vatican I?
[01:11:54]  Vatican I laid out definitively what the power of the pope was.
[01:11:57]  It was like a meeting?
[01:11:59]  It's an ecumenical council.
[01:12:00]  It's an ecumenical council, which means that it was a full council of the church called Dine Emperor.
[01:12:04]  Not in all cases.
[01:12:06]  No, no, no.
[01:12:07]  The first seven were called by emperors.
[01:12:09]  Some more were called by emperors.
[01:12:10]  Council of Florence was, but an ecumenical just means that it's all the world, all the bishops of the world.
[01:12:19]  Vatican I concludes suddenly getting just to what the power of the pope is, which gave it a lopsided look, our ecclesiology afterwards.
[01:12:28]  Vatican II needed to be held to get to what the power of the bishops were.
[01:12:32]  Once we started getting more liberal popes, like John XXIII and Paul VI, who were the two popes alive during Vatican II in the 1960s, they changed the agenda.
[01:12:43]  Actually, it was Karl Rahner and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, who a lot of people think was a right-winger in the Church.
[01:12:49]  He was not.
[01:12:50]  He and Rahner together changed the agenda from finishing what Vatican I was supposed to do, lay out the power of the bishops, to...

=== Documents Insinuative of Liberalism (15:46) ===

[01:13:05]  Now, the documents themselves are not bad.
[01:13:09]  The documents themselves are insinuative.
[01:13:12]  Can I read some of the documents?
[01:13:13]  Once I get done, yeah.
[01:13:15]  The documents themselves are insinuative of a more liberal position.
[01:13:20]  And they were intentionally written in such a way that they could be weaponized later.
[01:13:27]  Lots of the council fathers that were Ronerites.
[01:13:33]  What's our relationship to be with the Muslims?
[01:13:36]  Jay made reference to this earlier.
[01:13:38]  What's our relationship to be with the Hindus?
[01:13:40]  And it sounded more liberal.
[01:13:42]  Really, what they were doing was quoting things from Pope Pius X, a very based older pope.
[01:13:47]  They're quoting even from medieval popes who acknowledged things like, technically speaking, The Muslims are monotheists.
[01:13:55]  Technically, they're one of the Western religions.
[01:13:57]  TECHNICALLY THEY WORSHIP THE ONE TRUE GOD, BUT THEY WORSHIP THE ONE TRUE GOD IN THE FALSE WAY.
[01:14:03]  TRADS, YOU KNOW, RAD TRADS, ORTHODOX, EVERYONE GETS WORKED UP ABOUT THIS, BUT IT TURNS OUT THAT THIS IS A VERY, VERY OLD MEDIEVAL TERM THAT THE CHURCH IN Because Vatican II says the same about Hinduism.
[01:14:14]  He says they believe.
[01:14:16]  No, it doesn't.
[01:14:16]  Not about Hindus.
[01:14:17]  Hindus, not Muslims.
[01:14:18]  Hindus.
[01:14:19]  Okay, read what it says about Hindus.
[01:14:21]  Thus, in Hinduism, people explore the divine mystery.
[01:14:24]  They explore it.
[01:14:25]  And express it.
[01:14:26]  How do you explore the true...
[01:14:29]  Explore.
[01:14:29]  You can explore and not find what you're looking for.
[01:14:31]  You don't explore Christianity and Hinduism.
[01:14:33]  It's an absolutely false religion.
[01:14:34]  You don't explore Christianity and Hinduism.
[01:14:36]  They seek release from the trials of present life through ascetic practices and meditation and recourse to God in confidence.
[01:14:43]  I agree all that's bad, but you missed the term.
[01:14:45]  So it's bad.
[01:14:46]  My uncle Remus believes he can fly.
[01:14:50]  Jay's like, your uncle can fly?
[01:14:51]  No, this is your dogmatic statements that are supposed to provide clarity.
[01:14:54]  Right.
[01:14:55]  They need to be interpreted by you because they're ambiguous.
[01:14:58]  Are they clear or ambiguous?
[01:14:59]  Perfectly clear.
[01:15:00]  Really?
[01:15:01]  You just said it was bad.
[01:15:02]  You said it was bad.
[01:15:03]  Wait.
[01:15:04]  Is it clear or bad?
[01:15:05]  You finish jail.
[01:15:06]  I'll go after you're done.
[01:15:07]  They have recourse to God.
[01:15:09]  Dads will do the same thing.
[01:15:10]  So just, again, what does that have to do?
[01:15:12]  That's a deflection.
[01:15:13]  Irrelevant.
[01:15:13]  No, no, no.
[01:15:14]  That's a direct object.
[01:15:15]  That's a genetic fallacy.
[01:15:16]  object on the other side of the verb.
[01:15:19]  It is.
[01:15:19]  I'm a logic professor.
[01:15:23]  Appeal to authority.
[01:15:23]  Appeal to authority.
[01:15:24]  Genetic fallacy.
[01:15:25]  Do you want to do another fallacy?
[01:15:26]  They believe.
[01:15:27]  You're a king of fallacies.
[01:15:28]  That's for the record.
[01:15:29]  We agree.
[01:15:29]  It doesn't say they believe.
[01:15:30]  You're lying.
[01:15:33]  Read the sentence again.
[01:15:34]  It says that they seek release and they have recourse to God and confidence in love.
[01:15:38]  They seek.
[01:15:39]  They have recourse.
[01:15:40]  No, and have recourse.
[01:15:41]  They seek.
[01:15:41]  And have recourse.
[01:15:43]  Okay.
[01:15:43]  So what he's doing.
[01:15:44]  Did you say and recourse?
[01:15:45]  Finish up.
[01:15:46]  And recourse.
[01:15:47]  Finish up.
[01:15:47]  What does that mean, recourse?
[01:15:48]  They seek in God.
[01:15:51]  They can attain salvation.
[01:15:52]  Confidence and love in God.
[01:15:53]  I'll speak once he's done.
[01:15:55]  So what the Vatican II document said, I was very honest about this.
[01:15:58]  By the way, it's a genetic fallacy to say that.
[01:16:00]  Can I see the book?
[01:16:01]  Yeah.
[01:16:01]  Yeah.
[01:16:02]  Read the sentences.
[01:16:03]  This paragraph right here.
[01:16:04]  Because Vatican II.
[01:16:06]  Let me read it again for you.
[01:16:07]  I was just close to getting in the book.
[01:16:08]  In the religion of Hinduism, people explore the divine mystery.
[01:16:13]  Explore.
[01:16:14]  Thank you.
[01:16:14]  I just said that.
[01:16:15]  This doesn't mean they found it.
[01:16:16]  Do you want to repeat each word after I say each word?
[01:16:18]  But have you said ascertained?
[01:16:19]  If they said ascertained, we'd have a hard time.
[01:16:21]  So he doesn't want me to read the whole quote because he knows the later part is what he's saying.
[01:16:26]  The difference between seeking and finding is very real.
[01:16:29]  They have recourse to God in confidence and love.
[01:16:34]  Start the sentence over.
[01:16:36]  They seek.
[01:16:37]  Jay thinks that the sentence said that Hindus have ascertained the truth.
[01:16:43]  They haven't ascertained it.
[01:16:44]  They're seeking it.
[01:16:45]  They're exploring it.
[01:16:46]  You said it was a bad statement earlier.
[01:16:48]  No, I said that.
[01:16:50]  That's from Read the Document.
[01:16:53]  I'm saying that it's very easy to misinterpret if I say my dear old Uncle Remus believes that he can flap his arms and fly.
[01:17:00]  Why do we need you to interpret the documents?
[01:17:01]  You're saying that.
[01:17:02]  Why do we need you to interpret the documents?
[01:17:03]  I need you to interpret the documents.
[01:17:04]  That's a two-quote way.
[01:17:05]  Two-quote way again.
[01:17:06]  The logic professor keeps making fallacies.
[01:17:09]  You asked me what I thought it meant.
[01:17:11]  Why do you need to interpret them?
[01:17:12]  Let me read it.
[01:17:13]  There's a paragraph before that one.
[01:17:15]  I just want to read the full paragraph.
[01:17:18]  Or actually, this is part of the full paragraph.
[01:17:20]  It says, "Throughout history to the present day, there is found among different peoples a certain awareness of a hidden power, which lies behind the course of nature and the events of human life.
[01:17:29]  At times there is present even a recognition of a supreme being or still more of a father.
[01:17:35]  This awareness and recognition results in a way of life that is imbued with a deep religious sense.
[01:17:39]  The religions which are found in more advanced civilizations endeavor by way of well-defined concepts and exact language to answer these questions.
[01:17:47]  In Hinduism, people explore the divine mystery and express it both in the limitless riches of myth and the accurately defined insights of philosophy.
[01:17:57]  They seek release from the trials of the present life by ascetical practices, profound meditation, and recourse to God in confidence and love.
[01:18:06]  In its various forms, testifies to God the essential inadequacy of this changing world.
[01:18:11]  It proposes a way of life by which people can, with confidence and trust, attain a state of perfect liberation and reach supreme elimination either through their own efforts or with divine help.
[01:18:21]  So, too, other religions which are found throughout the world attempt in different ways to overcome the restlessness of people's hearts by outlining a program of life covering doctrine, Moral precepts and sacred rites.
[01:18:33]  Is there perfect liberation in Hinduism?
[01:18:35]  Real quick, I do want to read the one paragraph.
[01:18:39]  There's a little bit more that I think is interesting.
[01:18:40]  You already said it's bad.
[01:18:41]  It goes on.
[01:18:42]  You said it was badly worded.
[01:18:44]  It now answers this.
[01:18:45]  People like me.
[01:18:47]  Again, another fallacy.
[01:18:48]  Ad hominem.
[01:18:50]  Five fallacies, Tim.
[01:18:52]  It actually says here...
[01:18:52]  Maybe we have a mute button.
[01:18:53]  Immediately follow him.
[01:18:55]  I'm calling out the logic professor's fallacies.
[01:18:57]  I just want to point out that by that, Sorry, sorry to do it.
[01:19:00]  But immediately following this paragraph, it says, the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true There it is.
[01:19:28]  People find the fullness of their religious life.
[01:19:30]  Thank you.
[01:19:31]  I was going to ask for the book so I could read that.
[01:19:32]  I don't know why you think all that shows is a contradiction.
[01:19:34]  No, no, that doesn't help you.
[01:19:36]  I actually agree with the Catholic view.
[01:19:38]  It's basically saying, the way I interpret that is saying Hindus and Buddhists are looking through a keyhole and seeing these fragments.
[01:19:45]  that they're not quite understanding properly.
[01:19:47]  And if they were to adhere to Jesus Christ and find the way...
[01:19:51]  And that's precisely what all the even non-liberals of the council said.
[01:19:54]  The problem is that only...
[01:19:56]  John 14, Jesus says that he's the only way, right?
[01:19:59]  Of course.
[01:19:59]  The truth and the life.
[01:20:00]  It says that.
[01:20:01]  No, but I understand that the problem is that you cannot...
[01:20:03]  It says in the religions of Hinduism and in Buddhism, men find love in God and they find...
[01:20:10]  No, it says they find it.
[01:20:12]  They believe they seek it.
[01:20:13]  One phrase says seek it, then it says they find it.
[01:20:16]  Just like it says Muslims adore the one God.
[01:20:19]  No, no, no.
[01:20:19]  It's adoration?
[01:20:20]  Well, Muslims are different because they're Western religion.
[01:20:23]  No, they're not.
[01:20:24]  What's a Western religion?
[01:20:25]  Do they believe in one God or multiple?
[01:20:27]  They believe in monotheism.
[01:20:29]  Does the Bible teach the Trinity or monotheism?
[01:20:33]  The Trinity.
[01:20:35]  So then Muslims don't believe in the God of the Bible.
[01:20:37]  Do you know what the sense reference dichotomy is?
[01:20:40]  I do know that.
[01:20:40]  I have a question for you.
[01:20:41]  So if you understand what sense reference dichotomy is, we can be referring to the same thing.
[01:20:46]  You describe it as yellow, I describe it as red, and we're still referring to the same thing.
[01:20:50]  You're misunderstanding the sense reference dichotomy.
[01:20:52]  Does Jesus think that the Pharisees accurately worship the Father?
[01:20:57]  No, of course not.
[01:20:58]  So then that undoes your argument of Muslims.
[01:21:00]  No, no, no, no.
[01:21:01]  It undoes your Muslim argument.
[01:21:02]  Explain, because you said you understand the sense-reference dichotomy, explain how by sense, answer is affirmative, and by reference, it would be a negative answer.
[01:21:11]  We can be referring to the same thing.
[01:21:13]  If you think Cleveland is Cincinnati and I think it's Cincinnati.
[01:21:16]  And we're not that.
[01:21:17]  You want me to disprove your sense-reference argument?
[01:21:18]  Just answer the question.
[01:21:19]  I can disprove it by Mormons.
[01:21:21]  Sense-reference.
[01:21:21]  Do Mormons believe in Jesus?
[01:21:25]  No.
[01:21:26]  Mormons don't believe in the synagogue.
[01:21:27]  Do they use the term Jesus?
[01:21:28]  No.
[01:21:30]  Mormons absolutely use the term Jesus.
[01:21:32]  Mormons use the term Jesus.
[01:21:34]  Wait, wait, wait.
[01:21:34]  Do Mormons believe in the church of Jesus?
[01:21:36]  Jesus Christ in the Latter-day Saints.
[01:21:37]  Mormons believe Jesus is slid.
[01:21:41]  So Mormons believe that there is a historical Jesus.
[01:21:44]  He believes that he was.
[01:21:48]  I know what they believe.
[01:21:49]  Of course.
[01:21:49]  It's the name of their religion.
[01:21:50]  So just like Muslims, if they say, I believe in the one God, it's the quantifier shift fallacy.
[01:21:55]  No, that's true.
[01:21:56]  It's true.
[01:21:57]  But that's what the document is representing.
[01:21:59]  If it's the quantifier shift fallacy, then that undoes what...
[01:22:02]  So it's like, if I say, I have one mother, you have one mother, we all have one mother, therefore we come from the same mother.
[01:22:08]  It's a quantifying shift fallacy.
[01:22:10]  So one God, well, we all believe in one God, therefore it's the same God.
[01:22:14]  Vatican II is using the quantifier shift fallacy.
[01:22:17]  Read the line.
[01:22:18]  Read the line that you think is false, definitively.
[01:22:21]  Because there are no definitive statements you've read that are false.
[01:22:24]  Seeking, searching, exploring.
[01:22:27]  My uncle believes he can fly.
[01:22:29]  This is retarded.
[01:22:31]  The quantifier shift fallacy is retarded.
[01:22:33]  Okay, guys, guys.
[01:22:34]  No.
[01:22:34]  The claim that there's something false you just read is retarded.
[01:22:38]  It's written by liberals.
[01:22:40]  I gave you that at the beginning.
[01:22:41]  It's written by liberals, but it's supposed to clarify.
[01:22:43]  So the papacy does the job of clarifying, but it's written by liberals, and we need Tim to interpret it for you.
[01:22:49]  You don't need me to interpret anything.
[01:22:50]  I'm defending against an attack that you're making that's common.
[01:22:54]  Muslims worship the one true God living and subsisting in himself.
[01:22:59]  Yeah.
[01:22:59]  Yeah, that's a pretty tough one to get through.
[01:23:04]  I'm dealing with two barking dogs every time.
[01:23:06]  Muslims claim.
[01:23:07]  How about this?
[01:23:08]  Muslims claim to believe in one God.
[01:23:10]  It doesn't say.
[01:23:11]  It says they adore.
[01:23:12]  It doesn't say they claim.
[01:23:13]  Muslims do adore one God.
[01:23:13]  You're adding the words.
[01:23:14]  Now, they adore God.
[01:23:16]  By the sense reference dichotomy.
[01:23:19]  Okay, wait, wait, wait.
[01:23:20]  Hold on, hold on.
[01:23:20]  I'm going to read this.
[01:23:21]  I'm going to read this.
[01:23:22]  Yeah, read it.
[01:23:22]  This is important.
[01:23:23]  It says the church also has a high regard for the Muslims.
[01:23:27]  They worship God who is one, living, and merciful.
[01:23:31]  Precisely.
[01:23:31]  That's what I said.
[01:23:33]  I'm not done.
[01:23:33]  Let him finish reading.
[01:23:34]  I'm not done.
[01:23:35]  I'm not done.
[01:23:36]  The creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to humanity, they endeavor to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, and whose faith Muslims eagerly link to their own.
[01:23:46]  Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet.
[01:23:51]  His virgin mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke.
[01:23:55]  Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.
[01:24:00]  For this reason, they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms, deeds, and fasting.
[01:24:07]  It does seem like they're saying, as far as I can tell, Muslims are worshipping the same God.
[01:24:13]  Yes, this is a community college primer on intro to religions.
[01:24:19]  You mean how you couldn't get quantified shit balance?
[01:24:20]  It's in your Islam is literally Is it triune?
[01:24:26]  No.
[01:24:27]  No, it's not the God of the Bible according to you.
[01:24:29]  You said the Bible God is the Trinity.
[01:24:31]  No.
[01:24:31]  Yes, you did.
[01:24:32]  You don't think I think the Bible God is the Trinity?
[01:24:35]  Then the Muslims don't worship the same God because of the quantifier shift fallacy.
[01:24:38]  The Muslims don't worship the same God.
[01:24:40]  It doesn't say the same God as us.
[01:24:41]  The book says they do.
[01:24:42]  Thank you.
[01:24:43]  No, it doesn't.
[01:24:43]  Can you read it again?
[01:24:45]  They don't worship the same God.
[01:24:48]  Are you serious?
[01:24:49]  What's going on here?
[01:24:50]  How are we having this discussion?
[01:24:51]  They worship God who is living and subsisting in himself.
[01:24:54]  The merciful almighty creator.
[01:24:56]  No, you said the same God as us.
[01:24:58]  It is saying us.
[01:25:00]  No, no, it doesn't say us.
[01:25:01]  Oh, so it doesn't say us.
[01:25:03]  Are you serious?
[01:25:04]  How many gods do Muslims worship, Jay?
[01:25:08]  Jay Dyer, how many gods do Muslims worship?
[01:25:11]  How many do they worship?
[01:25:12]  One?
[01:25:13]  Or two?
[01:25:14]  Or three?
[01:25:14]  I don't believe in generic monotheism.
[01:25:16]  That's a word that exists in the 1600s.
[01:25:18]  Well, that's a distinction.
[01:25:19]  I also don't agree.
[01:25:21]  I believe what you're saying.
[01:25:22]  Tim, it's the quantifier Shefelsi.
[01:25:23]  One thing for certain is the Muslims.
[01:25:25]  You don't believe that they believe they worship one God.
[01:25:28]  It doesn't matter because the statement is that they do.
[01:25:30]  You said you understood the sense reference dichotomy.
[01:25:32]  They do worship.
[01:25:33]  They do worship the one true God, Tim.
[01:25:36]  But what you're quibbling over is whether or not the verb and the direct object there are in agreement.
[01:25:42]  We don't need a grammar lesson.
[01:25:44]  You do need a grammar lesson.
[01:25:45]  You're a logic professor.
[01:25:47]  You couldn't do the quantifier shift fellowship.
[01:25:48]  This guy doesn't know that Islam claims to worship one God.
[01:25:52]  It doesn't say they just claim it.
[01:25:53]  It says they do, Tim.
[01:25:54]  It says they worship God, not they worship a God.
[01:25:56]  The church, the Roman Catholic Church, has always acknowledged since Pius X, since two different I'm not quibbling with the Protestant and Orthodox.
[01:26:25]  I'm just saying what the church has always taught.
[01:26:28]  That is them saying they worship our God.
[01:26:31]  Could you address the argument then?
[01:26:32]  The argument is the church never changed its teaching on Islam.
[01:26:36]  Tim, you would be right if it's been a God.
[01:26:38]  I can read you from the personal Pius X Catechism that says the one true God.
[01:26:45]  You might have issues with that.
[01:26:47]  It doesn't represent a change.
[01:26:49]  I'm arguing that it's wrong.
[01:26:50]  Okay, guys, guys, real quick.
[01:26:51]  But it doesn't represent a change.
[01:26:53]  Okay, we're not.
[01:26:54]  It doesn't represent a change.
[01:26:54]  The conversation is not advancing.
[01:26:58]  Can I ask one question?
[01:26:59]  I want to say one thing.
[01:27:01]  I think it's actually been pretty good, actually.
[01:27:05]  What I interpret from that is that they were trying to say there is one true God, and even in that regard, they're saying other religions are seeing it improperly and doing it wrong.
[01:27:16]  Like, the argument is you look through a keyhole.
[01:27:20]  I think that's what it's saying.
[01:27:22]  That's what they're saying.
[01:27:23]  Muslims are looking through a hole and they're seeing something tiny and they're not doing it right.
[01:27:27]  Hindus are looking through a different hole.
[01:27:28]  So I think the argument of the Vatican II is there is only one true God.
[01:27:34]  Everyone else is just looking at it wrong.
[01:27:36]  Written by Jesuits.
[01:27:37]  They're very liberal.
[01:27:38]  So see, now it's bad again.
[01:27:40]  Their church created the Jesuits, by the way.
[01:27:42]  That was on them.
[01:27:42]  So from the Orthodox perspective.
[01:27:46]  Newsflash.
[01:27:47]  You just complained about them and said they're too liberal.
[01:27:51]  Yes, that's a well-known Catholic decision.
[01:27:54]  Catholics can be too liberal and it's fine.
[01:27:57]  Is it the Episcopal Church where they have an ecclesiology still?
[01:28:02]  I got a question.
[01:28:03]  Because I say that the Jesuits trend liberal, it doesn't mean that they're Protestants.
[01:28:08]  Well, you also expelled them because they were too liberal.
[01:28:11]  Is the one thing y 'all can agree on is that the Episcopal Church is the inferior church?
[01:28:15]  The Episcopal Church sucks.
[01:28:17]  Do you all agree?
[01:28:18]  Yeah, for sure.
[01:28:20]  Sure.
[01:28:20]  So I want to highlight, too, that I think Tim will have to admit this, that post-Vatican II, we can see the actions of the papacy, how they interpret this document, because they, in many cases, literally will go pray in mosque towards Mecca.

=== Catholic Faith and Monotheism (15:33) ===

[01:28:34]  Benedict XVI did it.
[01:28:35]  Also, John Paul II did it.
[01:28:37]  Excuse me.
[01:28:39]  Benedict XVI and Francis both did this, where they went to the mosque, they reverently prayed towards Mecca.
[01:28:44]  That's an outward expression of the interior disposition in Roman Catholic moral theology of their faith.
[01:28:49]  It's bad.
[01:28:51]  It's not dogmatic.
[01:28:53]  Vatican II is not dogmatic?
[01:28:54]  No, Vatican II is dogmatic.
[01:28:56]  The Pope's going and praying.
[01:28:58]  I'm saying that it expresses their faith.
[01:29:01]  That's all I'm saying.
[01:29:03]  I think he's a heretic.
[01:29:04]  I don't have a problem saying he's a heretic.
[01:29:05]  But you can't say the Pope's a heretic.
[01:29:09]  Francis was a material heretic.
[01:29:11]  We don't know yet if he's a formal heretic.
[01:29:12]  No one judges the first C?
[01:29:14]  Do you?
[01:29:14]  No one has judged the first C yet.
[01:29:16]  Who can?
[01:29:17]  You're judging it.
[01:29:18]  Canon 750 says that laity do not have the right to judge the bishops and the Cs.
[01:29:25]  I'm not judging them.
[01:29:25]  You just said he's a material heretic.
[01:29:27]  A material heretic and a formal heretic.
[01:29:30]  I know what it means.
[01:29:31]  Yeah, of course.
[01:29:31]  Yeah, you don't have authority, Of course.
[01:29:38]  That's not a teaching.
[01:29:39]  That's an action.
[01:29:41]  This is in conformity with the liberal view, with the liberal misinterpretation.
[01:29:46]  You can't just talk over everybody.
[01:29:48]  The intentional liberal misinterpretation of those passages you read, which Tim interpreted correctly, can be taken by popes and made minds of.
[01:30:00]  I'll just say this real quick.
[01:30:01]  That which I read is...
[01:30:08]  I would agree, if not for the fact that it says Muslims worship the same God.
[01:30:12]  It doesn't say same God.
[01:30:14]  He checked it.
[01:30:14]  Hold on, hold on, hold on.
[01:30:15]  Does it say same?
[01:30:16]  It doesn't say the word same.
[01:30:18]  Are you serious?
[01:30:19]  It doesn't literally say the same, but it does grammatically say the same.
[01:30:22]  Who's making shit up?
[01:30:23]  Who's the creator, Tim?
[01:30:24]  Wait, who's the creator?
[01:30:25]  Does it say same?
[01:30:26]  Who's the creator?
[01:30:27]  It says God.
[01:30:27]  It says they worship God.
[01:30:29]  Capital G people out there.
[01:30:30]  Who is the creator?
[01:30:31]  Who is the creator?
[01:30:32]  Don't just yell into the microphone if people keep talking.
[01:30:35]  I think it's correct.
[01:30:36]  Okay.
[01:30:37]  I think Muslims do worship God.
[01:30:39]  They don't.
[01:30:39]  They don't.
[01:30:40]  Not our God.
[01:30:40]  So he already admitted.
[01:30:41]  But that says capital G God.
[01:30:43]  That's why this is convincing to me and you guys aren't being convincing to me.
[01:30:45]  I'll tell you why.
[01:30:47]  Again, if you said a god, But it says a god.
[01:30:50]  Because I think you believe there's a god besides god.
[01:30:52]  I think there is one god.
[01:30:53]  That's the sense reference dichotomy right there.
[01:30:55]  So you believe there's another god besides god.
[01:30:57]  So the popes pray in Mosque.
[01:30:58]  You just said you believe they worship a god.
[01:31:00]  You said a god.
[01:31:02]  I said if it said they worship a god, as in they believe they're worshiping a god.
[01:31:09]  Who is similar to our God.
[01:31:10]  No, no, no.
[01:31:10]  Not they believe.
[01:31:11]  They really do.
[01:31:12]  Remember, that's the E. Wait, wait.
[01:31:13]  We're talking about your text, dude.
[01:31:15]  It's your test.
[01:31:17]  I know it's my text.
[01:31:19]  What would make all the difference is if they said that the Muslims worship a God rather than a God.
[01:31:24]  You're making reference to the sense-reference dichotomy by saying A. No.
[01:31:28]  That's why you couldn't answer the qualifier.
[01:31:31]  You're either not understanding what I said or you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said.
[01:31:35]  I'm not deliberately misrepresenting anything.
[01:31:37]  I'm saying that...
[01:31:39]  The sense-reference dichotomy literally covers whether or not they say God or acorn.
[01:31:44]  We don't need to go to sense-reference dichotomy.
[01:31:45]  This is grammar.
[01:31:46]  Do you know what it is?
[01:31:47]  Yes.
[01:31:48]  Okay, guys.
[01:31:48]  This is grammar.
[01:31:49]  It's a grammatical distinction.
[01:31:51]  Tim understands it's the same God.
[01:31:53]  Okay, he is not saying it simply because they worship God.
[01:31:56]  It says they worship God.
[01:31:58]  Capital G God.
[01:31:59]  I'm going to quote my friend Jay Dyer who says that this passage says same God, not one God.
[01:32:05]  Who's the creator, Tim?
[01:32:06]  Tim, who's the creator?
[01:32:08]  The same god would be an indexical.
[01:32:10]  So you can't answer this.
[01:32:10]  Why are you being dishonest?
[01:32:11]  You're being dishonest.
[01:32:13]  Who's the creator?
[01:32:14]  Literally.
[01:32:15]  Come on, man.
[01:32:15]  People out there checking.
[01:32:16]  Who is the creator?
[01:32:18]  Because he can't answer.
[01:32:19]  Look, I understand you don't understand the philosophy involved.
[01:32:21]  He's melting down and coping because he can't answer who the creator is.
[01:32:25]  You made up that it said-This guy called me a heretic 20 minutes ago and I agree with him.
[01:32:28]  Muslims worship the same God as us would be by an indexacle.
[01:32:31]  I'm a Unitarian though.
[01:32:32]  Same means that it says, if we use the word same, it would be- It would be heresy, and that's why I said it wasn't in there.
[01:32:39]  It's natural theology.
[01:32:39]  If it says that they worship one God, then it would be correct.
[01:32:43]  It says they do worship one God.
[01:32:44]  They worship God, who is one, living and subsisting in himself, merciful, almighty, and the creator.
[01:32:51]  Sure.
[01:32:51]  They're adumbrating the Muslim view.
[01:32:53]  I don't know why this is so shocking.
[01:32:55]  Again, if he said they worship a god, they'd be enumerating the Muslim view, but they'd say god.
[01:33:00]  I think it's right.
[01:33:01]  Lumen Gentium 16 says they adore the one god.
[01:33:03]  That's a term of worship.
[01:33:05]  I think they're right.
[01:33:06]  The one god.
[01:33:06]  They adore the one god.
[01:33:08]  And Pius X said this in his personal catechism.
[01:33:10]  So now you're deflecting to it.
[01:33:11]  No, and two medieval popes said it.
[01:33:12]  You're deflecting.
[01:33:13]  You could take issue with the Roman Catholic position as an Orthodox, that's what you should do, but you can't say that the church has changed.
[01:33:19]  Tim, the document is contradicting as the argument.
[01:33:21]  We don't care about it.
[01:33:23]  The document doesn't contradict Catholicism.
[01:33:24]  It might contradict Jay Dyer or...
[01:33:27]  The document itself contradicts what you said earlier.
[01:33:30]  Does Catholicism hold that Islam is the same as Christianity?
[01:33:34]  Do you know what a precept is?
[01:33:35]  What a logical axiom is?
[01:33:37]  Logical axioms are pre-scriptural.
[01:33:39]  So literally, the sense-reference dichotomy or the concept of proportional cause, these are things which pre-ordained language.
[01:33:49]  It's not sophistry to explain something.
[01:33:51]  It is sophistry.
[01:33:52]  You didn't understand this.
[01:33:54]  You did five fallacies in a row.
[01:33:56]  You said same.
[01:33:57]  That would be heresy.
[01:34:00]  That's what the argument of the text is, Tim.
[01:34:04]  They adore the one God in Lumen Gentium 16. In order for your argument to be correct, God would have to not be a proper noun in that sentence.
[01:34:11]  I believe that Muslims worship the one God.
[01:34:14]  No, they don't.
[01:34:15]  I believe that is a Pius the 10th Catholic.
[01:34:17]  Is he doing it?
[01:34:18]  Is he muting everybody?
[01:34:23]  I don't know what y'all are arguing at this point.
[01:34:28]  Just hear yelling.
[01:34:29]  Well, the moment anyone talks, someone else...
[01:34:34]  And then when I was asking a question, you guys started having a different debate at the same time.
[01:34:38]  That's fair.
[01:34:39]  That's a fair point.
[01:34:41]  Can I say what I perceive the argument to be as somebody who's kind of outside of it?
[01:34:45]  Let's just slow it down.
[01:34:46]  Let him say it and then we'll...
[01:34:47]  What I'm hearing from Jay is that that passage reads that Muslims...
[01:35:06]  You are saying that this is correct because they do believe they worship the same God as us, therefore it's not incorrect.
[01:35:15]  I would argue if it said they worship a God, you would be correct.
[01:35:21]  Grammatically, it says they worship God.
[01:35:22]  Does a God exist outside of the one God?
[01:35:24]  It doesn't matter.
[01:35:25]  They are worshiping something.
[01:35:26]  You're not talking about sense.
[01:35:27]  You're talking about reference.
[01:35:28]  Oh, my God.
[01:35:29]  There's another quote that answers.
[01:35:30]  So, yeah, read that next quote, but please don't interrupt us.
[01:35:33]  I have a thought on this.
[01:35:34]  So there's another statement beyond Nostra Tate III, which is Lumen Gentium 16. It says, "The plan of salvation includes those that acknowledge the Creator, first among whom are the Muslims.
[01:35:45]  They profess the faith of Abraham and together with us, That refutes you.
[01:35:52]  That doesn't refute me.
[01:35:53]  I agree with that.
[01:35:54]  Together with us, refutes your entire argument in the last 20 minutes.
[01:35:59]  Hold on.
[01:36:00]  How does it mean?
[01:36:01]  Together with us, Catholics.
[01:36:02]  I'll respond afterwards.
[01:36:03]  Okay.
[01:36:04]  Together with us, who are they referring to?
[01:36:06]  Muslims?
[01:36:06]  Muslims and Catholics.
[01:36:08]  Okay.
[01:36:08]  Muslims and Christians.
[01:36:09]  Catholics.
[01:36:10]  The Catholic argument, together with us.
[01:36:12]  Together with all monopies.
[01:36:14]  Neither of our sects believe this.
[01:36:15]  Together with us Catholics, what are you talking about?
[01:36:17]  Why are you lying?
[01:36:18]  I'm going to say this right now, guys, to Orthodox and Anglican Catholic.
[01:36:23]  Everything you're saying is convincing me more and more of the Catholic argument.
[01:36:26]  How?
[01:36:27]  Because the position that this is taking, imagine it like this.
[01:36:32]  There's a rock concert, an arena, stadium.
[01:36:35]  And Catholics are all – let's just say from the argument presented in this book, Catholics are all looking directly at the stage and Muslims are in the back behind it hearing a different bassy garbled version of it.
[01:36:48]  They're cheering for Freddie Mercury but they're hearing some weird version of the song.
[01:36:53]  When I hear that, what it's saying is that all of these different religions… They're doing things the wrong way towards the right God, because there is only one God.
[01:37:06]  This is precisely the Catholic interpretation since Vatican II.
[01:37:10]  Now, I admit at the very outset that it's written by liberals, so it squints towards more conciliation, which is bad.
[01:37:18]  But we have to say that Lumen Gentium Lumen Gentium and the other two sacred constitutions at Vatican II.
[01:37:26]  I wasn't asking for permission.
[01:37:27]  I'd be all for, by the way, muting while other guys are talking.
[01:37:33]  Because that's a really effective way of going.
[01:37:35]  It's still just yelling, though.
[01:37:36]  You know what I mean?
[01:37:37]  Yeah, but I can sit here and be quiet.
[01:37:39]  I'm just saying it's the Catholic.
[01:37:40]  You know, Trump shouldn't have been muted either.
[01:37:44]  Yeah.
[01:37:45]  Agreed.
[01:37:46]  No, as the Catholic, there has to be a distinction between monotheism and polytheism.
[01:37:51]  On the basis of natural religion, everyone out there who's listening to this knows, okay, there are three Abrahamic religions, which was posited by Lumen Gentium.
[01:38:01]  There's Judaism, Islam, Christianity.
[01:38:06]  Community College Intro to Religions 101.
[01:38:08]  There are polytheisms.
[01:38:10]  There are only three monotheisms in the history of the world.
[01:38:13]  Now, there's only one correct monotheism, which posits a triune God.
[01:38:18]  They say that they get this wrong.
[01:38:19]  This is repeated throughout the sacred constitutions of Vatican II, that Jews and Muslims, even though they're monotheists, they get it wrong.
[01:38:28]  They don't worship a triune God.
[01:38:30]  This is said countless times in the documents.
[01:38:33]  That's why we don't have the index, they believe or they falsely think that.
[01:38:38]  That language is reserved in the Vatican II documents for the polytheism.
[01:38:43]  So all they're doing there, and it's written by Jesuit liberals.
[01:38:47]  We're squinting toward a bad interpretation.
[01:38:50]  They say, correctly, they worship the one true God.
[01:38:54]  Pius X says this in his personal catechism.
[01:38:56]  He's a trad favorite.
[01:38:58]  Two other medieval popes say the exact same thing.
[01:39:00]  Whether Jay Dyer or Laura Lodge likes it, Well, but he's branding.
[01:39:07]  Fair enough.
[01:39:08]  I'm trying to help you brand.
[01:39:09]  But with regard – this is the last statement.
[01:39:12]  With regard to the polytheists, that's why they always say they falsely claim that, they falsely believe that, they falsely search for, they seek for.
[01:39:20]  Okay, so the distinction is monotheistic politics.
[01:39:22]  This is correct, and everything Tim said there we would agree with, except that from the Orthodox perspective, we reject the whole idea that there are Abrahamic monotheistic faiths.
[01:39:31]  So even though Muslims might see themselves as that, when we look at the Old Testament revelation, we believe that it is the Trinity explicitly revealing itself in the Old Testament.
[01:39:41]  They don't know the name per se of the word Trinity, but it's Yahweh, his angel messenger, and his spirit are revealed.
[01:39:47]  And in John 5 through 9, when Jesus debates with the Pharisees, who were the monotheists,
[01:40:12]  If Abraham believed in the Trinity, then the whole Abrahamic religion thing falls apart.
[01:40:17]  And Jesus says that to have Have faith in him makes you a child of Abraham.
[01:40:21]  Galatians 3, Paul says the exact same thing.
[01:40:23]  So when Vatican II acknowledges that they have the faith of Abraham together with us, we believe that is a denial of Jesus' teaching in John 8 that you can be a child of Abraham without faith in Christ.
[01:40:36]  That's the argument.
[01:40:37]  That's fair.
[01:40:38]  That's fair.
[01:40:38]  Real quick, so Just as a representative change.
[01:40:40]  My response is kinda like, The modern American ICBM is 1,250 times stronger than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
[01:40:56]  It is also possible that there – it is also true that India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons that are substantially weaker because they have not yet discovered the means and the capability by which to build such a powerful bomb.
[01:41:07]  So, I think it could be said that you may have discovered hidden truths and the true path towards God and religion and Muslims.
[01:41:16]  I think the argument would be that Muslims are openly rejecting Christianity.
[01:41:24]  So the point is that there are fundamentals that are absolutely essential to have access to God or to Christianity.
[01:41:30]  So to deny, for example, the Trinity or the Incarnation puts one outside of the bounds of Christianity at all.
[01:41:36]  But I agree.
[01:41:39]  Look at it this way.
[01:41:41]  There's a bouncer at a club, and he says, if you follow the rules, you can come into the club.
[01:41:45]  And half the people follow the rules and get let in.
[01:41:47]  The other half says, that guy's telling us to go bash the windows out, and they get thrown out.
[01:41:51]  They thought that's what the guy wanted.
[01:41:52]  It's the same guy, but they're doing it wrong.
[01:41:54]  We do throw people out.
[01:41:56]  Right.
[01:41:58]  My point is, when Vatican II says they worship God...
[01:42:06]  What are they doing?
[01:42:07]  Well, the problem is not just worship, but Vatican II uses the term of adoration, which in Catholic theology is more specific than just a generic idea of natural theology.
[01:42:14]  Adoration is something that's a specific term for adoring the Eucharist in Catholic theology.
[01:42:20]  And I would also point out that in my opening statement, I mentioned the fact that the Council of Vien, which is a medieval Roman Catholic theology, which was involved in the Crusades, that attitude today that you see here is completely different.
[01:42:32]  It's different than the attitude then in the Middle Ages where it was the abominable sect of Muhammad in the council.
[01:42:37]  They call crusades against the Muslims to protect the Holy Land.
[01:42:40]  Sure.
[01:42:41]  Attitudes change.
[01:42:41]  Dogma does.
[01:42:42]  No, no, no.
[01:42:42]  That's all I'm saying.
[01:42:43]  How can you be the abominable sect of Muhammad but now together with us they adore the one true God?
[01:42:48]  That's the contradiction, Tim.
[01:42:49]  They could be the abominable sect of Muhammad and still worship one God.
[01:42:52]  No, they don't.
[01:42:53]  Even by reference to the true God.
[01:42:55]  With us, Tim.
[01:42:57]  Jay, can I ask?
[01:42:58]  These are both dogmatic councils?
[01:43:00]  Yeah, they're from Vatican II.
[01:43:01]  Okay, then dogma contradicts.
[01:43:03]  That's not true.
[01:43:06]  That's simply and straightforwardly untrue.
[01:43:09]  It was also untrue when you said we don't have ordination, but that apparently doesn't matter today.
[01:43:13]  You don't have ordination that's apostolic.
[01:43:15]  Let's go there.
[01:43:16]  It goes back to Augustin.
[01:43:17]  How many years was the jihad?
[01:43:21]  Augustine's goes back to Peter.
[01:43:24]  Is that, so the jihad goes from Augustine's We're having a separate debate again.
[01:43:28]  Oh, because I asked a question about how many years was the jihad?
[01:43:30]  You mean from the rise of Islam?
[01:43:31]  The literal jihad conquests across North Africa, the Middle East, the Ukraine.
[01:43:40]  It was basically 100 years, 632 to 732.
[01:43:43]  on the eastern side, it's not quite as linear because there's the immediate Arab move into the north, and then the Turks convert, and they come back down south.

=== Many Battles Unfought (02:23) ===

[01:43:51]  632 to 750, 119 years, That's kind of the reversal.
[01:43:58]  And then there were additional jihads in the 11th and 13th centuries for 200 years.
[01:44:03]  And so I'm looking at the birth rate for Muslims, which is 3.1.
[01:44:08]  As well as the hundreds of years of militaristic conquest under the banner of Islam.
[01:44:14]  And, like, how many battles of the Crusades were there?
[01:44:18]  There were a lot.
[01:44:19]  Like, nowhere near as many as the Islamic Jihad?
[01:44:22]  I don't think that's true.
[01:44:24]  I think there were a lot more battles.
[01:44:25]  It really depends on how you do it.
[01:44:26]  Muhammad fought in 78 battles?
[01:44:29]  78 battles.
[01:44:31]  There weren't that many in the Crusades as compared to the full total of Islamic Jihad.
[01:44:35]  There were not as many battles during the Crusades.
[01:44:38]  Let's see.
[01:44:39]  Nine battles in the Crusades over 200 years.
[01:44:43]  I would argue against that.
[01:44:46]  Maybe nine major battles.
[01:44:50]  Yeah.
[01:44:52]  How are they defining battles?
[01:44:54]  I don't know.
[01:44:54]  There were 80 to 100 military expeditions in the first Islamic Jihad.
[01:45:03]  Yeah.
[01:45:04]  So in terms of birth rate and expansion, I mean, Islam's doing way better.
[01:45:10]  I'm not saying that makes it superior.
[01:45:12]  So, I will say, Islam, the ability of Islam to move after 732 was largely due to the Turks coming in at a time that could not have been less ideal for Christians.
[01:45:24]  These two were, well, thankfully we were the same at the time, were in conflict.
[01:45:28]  There was a schism that had happened about Then you get the Battle of Nanzikert in 1071, and the Byzantine Empire collapses in on itself because everybody wants to be emperor.
[01:45:39]  And ironically, the church wasn't strong enough to enforce one single emperor.
[01:45:44]  In the West, the church wasn't strong enough to convince people, hey, we need to go drive the Turks out, and had to use Jerusalem as a little bit of a carrot on a stick.
[01:45:53]  So the Muslims came in at a time when Christians were more divided than they'd ever been, and we were unable to resist the tide until 1095, when we were able to assemble an army large enough to go in and fight it.

=== Us Becoming Christian? (03:08) ===

[01:46:05]  But at that point, the Franks didn't want to stay over there.
[01:46:09]  The Saracens became too numerous, too powerful.
[01:46:13]  It was a long period of strife that was largely caused by Christianity's inability to come together.
[01:46:19]  There was an argument a few years ago, maybe like seven years ago, where a lot of people, including myself, made the argument that the US would become a Muslim nation.
[01:46:27]  No.
[01:46:28]  Because Muslims have a substantially higher fertility rate than basically every other group, including Christians.
[01:46:34]  And that combined with mass migration, you see the emergence of places like Dearborn, Michigan.
[01:46:40]  However, with the recent trend towards Christianity among the Gen Z, and it's not just that conservatives and Christians had more kids, we're actually seeing an ideological shift.
[01:46:51]  I think a large portion of why we're seeing young Gen Z be more Christian is just because of their parents.
[01:46:56]  But I think around half—we
[01:47:23]  which may happen, we are seeing a lot of people start to have kids again, then I think the US is on track to become a conservative Christian nation.
[01:47:30]  Probably.
[01:47:30]  In fact, one of the global elite books that I lectured through was Jacques Hattelit's book, Brief History of the Future, in 2006.
[01:47:36]  He warned that for the technocratic elite, one of the things they had to be concerned with was the possibility of a rising traditional Christian ethos in the West and in the U.S. So they actually war-gamed that out.
[01:47:49]  A few years ago, the Saudis were noted for, I think, putting 60-something billion into funding mosques in the U.S. and Islamic education centers.
[01:47:58]  So I think they were really pushing for that.
[01:48:00]  But Islam has had a rough go on the Internet, especially in the last couple of years.
[01:48:04]  They're losing bad, and then a lot of younger people are turning towards Christianity.
[01:48:08]  So I have a question for you guys, just for all Christians.
[01:48:11]  Is it one of the core tenets to go and spread the religion?
[01:48:15]  Yeah.
[01:48:16]  Do you guys view yourselves as doing that?
[01:48:19]  I would say yes, 100%.
[01:48:20]  In this current, present moment right now?
[01:48:23]  I think in just general.
[01:48:24]  I think I'll talk about your religion on large platforms to large groups of people.
[01:48:28]  Certainly.
[01:48:28]  And evangelization sounds different than the internecine squabbling between Catholics and Orthodox, certainly.
[01:48:36]  Yeah, I think I'm sure all of us try to do that in a different forum.
[01:48:42]  Yeah, I mean, like I said, Islam is having a hard time because they had a really strong push in the 2010s online, and a lot of people were getting into Islam, but now a lot of Christians are doing pretty intense, hardcore apologetics.

=== Skateboarding's Degenerate Garbage (02:54) ===

[01:48:55]  Like, we had that debate with Daniel Kikachu and Ejaz together, me and Sam Shamoon on Fresh and Fit.
[01:49:02]  That got millions of views, and it was like 90% just dominated.
[01:49:05]  I mean, Russell Brand.
[01:49:07]  Yeah.
[01:49:08]  You know, so in the skateboard community, It's degenerate garbage, mostly.
[01:49:15]  These pro skateboarders have always been scuzzy, drug abusing.
[01:49:18]  Now there's a bunch of them that are getting baptized.
[01:49:20]  I'm not going to single anybody out, but I was surprised to find.
[01:49:24]  Didn't skating get, like, the corporations try to take it over, like, make it woke, and then people are reacting to that now?
[01:49:29]  Well, so with skateboarding, what happened was the industry completely collapsed because there's no young people anymore.
[01:49:34]  And the stewards of the industry failed to cultivate a new generation of skateboarders.
[01:49:39]  So what happens then is...
[01:49:48]  When the water goes down, it exposes the scum in the reef.
[01:49:52]  And so now some of the most prominent voices in the industry are degenerate, cringy, rage bait.
[01:49:58]  And so what happens is these companies try to figure out how to sell to whoever they can, and you end up with advertisements, or there may be an inverse correlation here that… Young guys say, I don't have anything to do with this.
[01:50:19]  Because scooting doesn't do that.
[01:50:21]  Scooting doesn't.
[01:50:21]  And that's growing massively in popularity.
[01:50:24]  All the skills are now, in terms of action sports, are going in that direction in BMX.
[01:50:28]  And this is what happens when, you know what I think it is, to relate this to the conversation, abject degeneracy.
[01:50:35]  Freaks the average person out no matter what.
[01:50:38]  No matter who they are, where they're from.
[01:50:40]  It is a shock to the system.
[01:50:42]  So skateboarding started promoting.
[01:50:43]  There's one individual who's a morbidly obese man who's trans and does weird sexualized fetish poses.
[01:50:50]  But it's like a big fat guy.
[01:50:53]  And a lot of young men are like, I don't want to have anything to do with that.
[01:50:59]  I think now we're seeing a lot of young men shift towards Christianity that's in the polls.
[01:51:04]  That may be a good explanation as to why skateboarding is struggling to market itself to a younger generation because all the big magazines are basically being like, here's the trans and the queer stuff.
[01:51:16]  It's not internal to one culture or another subculture.
[01:51:20]  This is what's at large.
[01:51:22]  In the general popular culture is a great reawakening.
[01:51:25]  Essentially, secular humanism—I'm not the first one to say it.

=== Protestants Converting: A Fertility Rate Metric (03:20) ===

[01:51:29]  It's reasonably obvious.
[01:51:31]  Ten years into it, secular humanism has consumed itself, and people are looking for what's perennial and what's true.
[01:51:39]  And it turns out that a lot of young kids are finding Jesus-based.
[01:51:45]  And so when they're returning to Christianity, they're looking for what they— I'm not going to tell you that.
[01:52:15]  I think it's something like six to eight.
[01:52:16]  Yeah, well, last year was the best year in the new evangelization, which is what John Paul II set out to do, using media, using the self-immolation of popularity.
[01:52:30]  Well, I googled it, and it—I'm sorry, I chat-GPT'd it, and it says that Protestants are converting to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
[01:52:39]  We are.
[01:52:41]  It should be clear that— You disputed that.
[01:52:43]  No, I did not dispute that.
[01:52:45]  I think you did.
[01:52:45]  I did not.
[01:52:46]  Let's see.
[01:52:47]  155 per parish from 22 to 23. I said leaving in droves.
[01:52:52]  That's not a good metric.
[01:52:53]  There's no real good metric.
[01:52:55]  They say 78% surge in Orthodox conversions, but again, we don't have the actual hard numbers.
[01:53:02]  Orthodoxy is seeing 155 converts per church, of which 65 are from Protestant backgrounds.
[01:53:07]  Yeah, I think Protestantism has a major issue right now with...
[01:53:14]  I don't think that's a good thing.
[01:53:15]  I think that the Episcopal Church, many of the Presbyterian churches have totally lost their way.
[01:53:20]  Oh, yeah.
[01:53:21]  And that's why the Anglican Catholic Church exists.
[01:53:24]  I think Protestants need to really look in the mirror and ask ourselves what the hell we're doing.
[01:53:29]  Let me say this.
[01:53:29]  When I was looking up different denominations, Chet GPT volunteered unto me that the Episcopal Church was shrinking.
[01:53:38]  It's bad.
[01:53:38]  Like when I said like list the churches by a fertility rate, it was like, you know, as a piece of bullet, it shrinks.
[01:53:48]  So they sterilize themselves with their policies and then they don't have future generations and they die out.
[01:53:53]  The conservative Protestant churches aren't as good at marketing.
[01:53:57]  We are not nearly as good at telling people we exist.
[01:54:00]  The Roman and Catholic and the Orthodox churches are both very visible.
[01:54:03]  I think that's why you see so many Protestants converting right now.
[01:54:05]  I think if more Protestants were aware of churches like the Anglican Catholics, There are a lot of churches that fly the pride flags, even Catholic churches.
[01:54:24]  They're popping up.
[01:54:25]  They tend to be in liberal areas, and I view that largely as the church is looking at the political views of the community around them, and they're probably saying to themselves, in one year, this church will be a coffee shop unless we get— What do we have to do?

=== Choice Matters (02:45) ===

[01:54:41]  Market whatever they want to hear.
[01:54:43]  But the woke churches die.
[01:54:43]  It doesn't work.
[01:54:44]  Yeah, it doesn't.
[01:54:45]  But, you know, I'll say this too.
[01:54:47]  They die and the faith dies with them.
[01:54:48]  And many people have said, get woke, go broke.
[01:54:50]  But I do believe, while that's largely true, there's an inverse of go broke, get woke, in that a lot of companies try to adopt wokeness as a marketing tactic to try and get – but they don't understand hippies don't have money.
[01:55:02]  Well, it's a boomer marketing appeal that was really – I'll speak to the Catholic position.
[01:55:07]  It was really popular during and around Vatican II, and they thought that kids wanted monkey's music and long hair and masks and tambourines and shit, and they simply didn't.
[01:55:20]  What they wanted was what's perennial and true, and that's really what's – Let me say this.
[01:55:25]  There's this – People came in, the first group answered the questions, and as they were leaving, they were given a free t-shirt.
[01:55:42]  They were then, on the way out, asked how do they feel about their experience.
[01:55:46]  The next group came in, answered the questions, were then given a choice between one of three t-shirts, blue, green, or red.
[01:55:52]  They then made a choice.
[01:55:53]  They were then on the way out, asked how they felt.
[01:55:55]  The people who were given the choice felt worse off.
[01:55:59]  They felt regret.
[01:56:00]  They picked the wrong color.
[01:56:01]  The people who weren't given a choice went, wow, free t-shirt!
[01:56:04]  But when they had to choose between the colors, it actually made them feel worse.
[01:56:08]  And this is often cited as a, in many instances, not all, choice actually stresses people out and makes them feel anxiety.
[01:56:16]  They don't like it.
[01:56:18]  A lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people really just want to be told what to do.
[01:56:22]  And I've said this before because there's this mentality in the United States that being a follower is a bad thing.
[01:56:28]  You want to be a leader.
[01:56:29]  And I reject that.
[01:56:31]  There's a requirement for both leaders and followers.
[01:56:34]  And they try to insult you in modern media if you are just a follower of someone'cause you have to be the leader.
[01:56:51]  In fact, without them, there is no king.
[01:56:54]  So being a follower isn't a bad thing.
[01:56:56]  I think modern society tries to tell you not to.
[01:57:00]  Not to do that.
[01:57:01]  Be rogue.
[01:57:03]  No, it's perfectly fine if you want to say, listen, I spend my days taking care of my family.

=== Freemasonry and Its Context (06:27) ===

[01:57:10]  You take care of the politics.
[01:57:11]  I believe in you to do the right thing.
[01:57:13]  Don't screw me over.
[01:57:14]  There's nothing wrong with it.
[01:57:16]  Modernity is enlightenment, right?
[01:57:20]  Enlightenment effect.
[01:57:21]  So the Enlightenment was all about individual atomistic liberties, which were premised on the idea that there's no authority, there's no hierarchy, hence why they were opposed to church and state.
[01:57:33]  Monarchy and church, basically.
[01:57:34]  And I will say this too, one of the debates we often have in the political arena around religion is...
[01:57:48]  They had blasphemy laws back then.
[01:57:50]  Even when the founding father says the right to speech shall not be infringed.
[01:57:53]  Of course, no one in this room thinks you can go out there and take the Lord's name in vain.
[01:57:58]  That would be a crime.
[01:58:00]  They meant you could go and have political conversations in a pub.
[01:58:03]  And so when you look at the context around the...
[01:58:07]  the Constitution in 1789 and all that, they weren't literally saying anyone can march the street to the tombs of thousands of people and block roads.
[01:58:15]  They were saying if you have a meeting in your city peacefully, But these people think the Founding Fathers were a bunch of, like, liberal atheists.
[01:58:26]  Yeah, they're like Sam Harris or something like that.
[01:58:29]  Nope.
[01:58:30]  Eight of the 13 states had establishments of Christian religions and the First Amendment to the US Constitution was written, assuming that all 13 would, and what the establishment clause means literally was that Congress wasn't allowed to disestablish the state legislature-established sects of Christianity.
[01:58:57]  That's literally what it means, and it was a Masonic U.S. Supreme Court in 1947 in a case called Everson v.
[01:59:05]  Board of Ed that literally reversed the meaning.
[01:59:08]  And incorporated the First Amendment.
[01:59:11]  Speaking of which, like Enlightenment Freemasonic values, how do you reconcile Freemasonry with Christianity?
[01:59:16]  What about Freemasonry is in conflict with Christianity?
[01:59:19]  How about Albert Pike's teachings?
[01:59:21]  Albert Pike is not recognized as influential by most Masons.
[01:59:25]  His teachings are non-essential.
[01:59:27]  You're telling me the morals and dogma.
[01:59:28]  I am the Freemason, yeah.
[01:59:29]  Morals and dogma.
[01:59:29]  I'll admit I've had my questions because I have run into things in the Scottish Rite.
[01:59:32]  You're telling me the morals and dogma is not used in the Scottish Rite?
[01:59:35]  No, it is used in the southern jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite.
[01:59:37]  So he has a giant statue in D.C., but he's not influential.
[01:59:41]  He was influential for a number of other reasons.
[01:59:43]  Secularly, he was a civil war general.
[01:59:45]  He was an accomplished ethnographer.
[01:59:48]  Okay, what about Manly P. Hall?
[01:59:50]  He also doesn't count?
[01:59:51]  Manly P. Hall admitted that he wrote everything that you have a problem with before he became a Freemason.
[01:59:56]  What Masons do count?
[01:59:58]  Well, it depends on what you're talking about with Freemasonry.
[02:00:01]  Freemasonry is the first three degrees.
[02:00:02]  That's it.
[02:00:03]  Or the philosophy.
[02:00:04]  That's not true.
[02:00:05]  There's 32nd, 33rd degree.
[02:00:07]  There are in the Scottish Rite, which is appellate to Freemasonry.
[02:00:10]  It's like getting a merit badge.
[02:00:11]  Yeah, but I don't care about what your terms are for these different sex.
[02:00:13]  These aren't my terms.
[02:00:15]  They have a naturalistic bent and ethos.
[02:00:17]  For example, Pike says that...
[02:00:20]  No, he's not.
[02:00:21]  Well, he's irrelevant to you, but not to the history of Freemason.
[02:00:23]  No, Pike is irrelevant to everything outside of the cycle.
[02:00:25]  To the history of Freemasonry in general.
[02:00:28]  Who's the Freemason here?
[02:00:29]  Who's the one who knows what he's talking about?
[02:00:30]  It's me.
[02:00:31]  That's an appeal to authority.
[02:00:32]  No, it's not.
[02:00:32]  Yes, it is.
[02:00:33]  I'm citing your sources.
[02:00:34]  You're not citing my sources.
[02:00:35]  You're citing yourself.
[02:00:35]  Albert Pike is a source.
[02:00:37]  For Freemasonry, not you, dude.
[02:00:39]  No, Albert Pike is a source for the southern jurisdiction of the Scottish right of Freemasonry.
[02:00:45]  You're telling me that he's not famous in the world of Freemasonry.
[02:00:47]  Okay, Giuseppe Mazzini.
[02:00:48]  How about Giuseppe Mazzini?
[02:00:49]  Does he count?
[02:00:50]  Is he P2?
[02:00:51]  No, he's in the Grand Orient Lodge.
[02:00:53]  Grand Orient, not regular.
[02:00:55]  So what counts?
[02:00:56]  The three degrees of the crumbest So, the York Rite, is that what?
[02:01:06]  The York Rite, like the Scottish Rite, is appellate and is not held in union with all Freemasonic ideals.
[02:01:11]  So, and the British Empire, what was the function of Freemason in the British Empire, in your view?
[02:01:17]  It was a social club.
[02:01:19]  So are you a speculative Mason?
[02:01:22]  All Masons are speculative Masons.
[02:01:23]  No, they're not.
[02:01:24]  The original Masons were stone workers.
[02:01:28]  They weren't speculative Freemasons.
[02:01:29]  Yes, it did originate from operative Masons in the late 1300s as a Catholic organization which very explicitly held that you must love the church with God and the church.
[02:01:41]  That's not speculative Freemasonry.
[02:01:43]  All right.
[02:01:44]  It was.
[02:01:44]  It was the origin of speculative Freemasonry.
[02:01:46]  No, it's not.
[02:01:47]  Yes, the Regius poem.
[02:01:49]  The Catholic Church has condemned you for centuries.
[02:01:53]  Seven times.
[02:01:53]  Seven different times.
[02:01:55]  For centuries.
[02:01:56]  Why?
[02:01:57]  Tell me why.
[02:01:58]  I know why.
[02:01:58]  Do you?
[02:01:59]  Do you know why?
[02:02:00]  I do know why.
[02:02:00]  Do you know why the Pope in 1738?
[02:02:02]  Shut up.
[02:02:03]  I've read the papal document.
[02:02:04]  No, you've been interrupting me while asking me questions.
[02:02:05]  Because your answers are stupid.
[02:02:07]  You're not stupid.
[02:02:08]  You don't know what you're talking about.
[02:02:09]  You're dishonest.
[02:02:10]  No, do you know why?
[02:02:11]  Guys, guys, guys.
[02:02:11]  It was because they met a secret.
[02:02:12]  Because you're acting as if.
[02:02:14]  1738 in in humanum in humanum, um Yeah, in that one.
[02:02:19]  What was the reason he gave it?
[02:02:20]  Make sure to watch Tim Castile Royale tonight at 8pm.
[02:02:22]  Guys, we're overtime.
[02:02:24]  And if we had more time, I'd say let's get into masonry.
[02:02:27]  I'm happy to come back and do masonry.
[02:02:28]  Let's do another one on the Freemasonry thing.
[02:02:30]  Even just from the historical perspective.
[02:02:31]  He doesn't know what he's talking about.
[02:02:33]  But you're lying because Albert Pike is very influential.
[02:02:37]  Albert Pike is not influential outside of the southern jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite.
[02:02:41]  Largely masonry.
[02:02:43]  Alright, do you want to shout anything out before we go?
[02:02:45]  Yes, you can find me at my website, jaysanalysis.com.
[02:02:49]  You can find me on YouTube.
[02:02:50]  You can find me usually the fourth hour of Alex Jones every Friday.
[02:02:53]  You can find me writing the Sam Hyde Show and find me on Twitter.
[02:02:57]  Yeah.
[02:02:57]  My name is Aidan Mattis.
[02:02:59]  I'm the host of the Lore Lodge, History Unhinged, and the Weird Bible Podcast.
[02:03:03]  I do want to quickly say that the Anglican Church does not necessarily agree with me about Freemasonry before I get in trouble for that.
[02:03:09]  But yeah, that's where I'm leaving this.
[02:03:11]  You can find me here on YouTube.
[02:03:13]  Timothy Gordon on Twitter.
[02:03:15]  I'm at Timothy.

=== Don't Miss It! (00:21) ===

[02:03:21]  And I'm on YouTube as well, Timothy Gordon, doing a show called Rules for Retrogrades.
[02:03:26]  Thanks for having us on.
[02:03:28]  Right on.
[02:03:28]  This was fun.
[02:03:29]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:03:30]  The most heated debate we've had.
[02:03:32]  Who'd have thought?
[02:03:33]  We're going to be back tonight at 8 p.m. for Timcast IRL.
[02:03:36]  Don't miss it.
[02:03:37]  Bring your friends.
[02:03:38]  Tell your grandma.
[02:03:39]  Thanks for hanging out.