The Culture War - Tim Pool - The Culture War #18 - Emma Vigeland & Sean Fitzgerald, Debating Crime And Social Issues
Aired: 2023-06-23
Duration: 02:21:15


=== Back From Sick Leave (03:03) ===

[00:00:00]  I'm back.
[00:00:07]  First thing I want to say is thank you to Jack Posobiec and Seamus Coghlan for guest hosting TimCast IRL while I was out.
[00:00:14]  I wasn't not, in fact, dead.
[00:00:16]  I just lost my voice and that really sucked.
[00:00:18]  I think on Sunday I was kind of sick and it sucked so I just hung out and was playing video games all day.
[00:00:23]  But then Monday I was talking like this and then I figured I'd be fine by Tuesday and then come Wednesday morning when I still couldn't talk.
[00:00:29]  We were like, we need to call in the big guns, so we reached out to some people to see if they would guest host for us, and we got some people.
[00:00:34]  We got Jack and Seamus, so thank you all for that.
[00:00:37]  This is the first The Culture War podcast we're doing live as we're now getting into the purpose for what this show is.
[00:00:45]  When we do shows on Timcast IRL at 8 or so p.m., We'll often have people come in who either disagree with us on certain issues, or that's primarily it.
[00:00:56]  When they do, the show transforms from topical news into political and cultural debate.
[00:01:02]  And so we decided we need to make a specific show that just handles those conversations and expands upon them so that we can actually get to the core of what people think, feel, why they want certain policies and why they don't.
[00:01:13]  And a topical news show doesn't really work for that, so Friday mornings, You know, here's what we're going to do.
[00:01:18]  And we were posting this at 1pm before, but now we'll probably end up doing it live just because.
[00:01:24]  So without further ado, without wasting any of your time, we've got two awesome guests.
[00:01:28]  Sean, do you want to introduce yourself first?
[00:01:30]  Oh, I'm Sean Fitzgerald.
[00:01:32]  I do YouTube at The Actual Justice Warrior.
[00:01:34]  I cover primarily criminal justice related issues, and I'm happy to be here for your maiden live voyage of the culture war.
[00:01:40]  And Emma, would you like to introduce yourself?
[00:01:42]  I'm Emma Vigeland.
[00:01:43]  I'm the co-host of The Majority Report.
[00:01:45]  Thanks so much, Tim, for having me on.
[00:01:47]  I know that it was a little dicey with you and Sam in terms of him coming on, but I'm happy that you had me on.
[00:01:56]  Absolutely.
[00:01:56]  I'm glad you came.
[00:01:57]  Yeah.
[00:01:58]  And I just want to clear this up because I know that, you know, you didn't want to have Sam on because you called him a grifter, right?
[00:02:04]  And part of the reason that you called him that is because you said that, you know, we put your song through a filter on our show.
[00:02:10]  And I just want you to know, I was hosting that day.
[00:02:13]  We don't have the technology to do that.
[00:02:15]  So I did not do that.
[00:02:16]  So there you go.
[00:02:17]  Yeah, it was like the song.
[00:02:19]  So that specific issue was the song we put out, played on your show, had like the mids ripped out of it.
[00:02:26]  We don't have the technological ability to do that.
[00:02:28]  We're just a bunch of leftists in with, like, a soundboard.
[00:02:32]  I promise you nothing was intentional.
[00:02:34]  You don't have audacity?
[00:02:35]  It's free.
[00:02:36]  Well, no, the issue here is likely that... I don't really know.
[00:02:38]  I don't know anything about audio tech.
[00:02:39]  If you don't have proper ingestion, then, like, the audio is going through a TV or something.
[00:02:44]  It's going to sound really bad.
[00:02:45]  Right.
[00:02:46]  So if we were to, like, play music on the TV and then put the mics up to it, everything would be ripped out from it.

=== Ads and Allegations (06:40) ===

[00:02:51]  And then if we were to say, listen how bad this sounds, it's misleading the average person into thinking that that's what the song sounds like.
[00:02:58]  But I played that.
[00:02:59]  And look, I mean, we're here to have a great discussion, I think.
[00:03:03]  But it's interesting that even though I played it, That was your justification for calling Sam a grifter.
[00:03:08]  It's not, though.
[00:03:08]  The issue with Sam was that I put out a tweet where I said, we try to invite people on the left all the time, they always say no.
[00:03:16]  And then Sam tweeted, challenge accepted, or something to that effect, like, I'll come on.
[00:03:20]  And I was like, oh, this is great, because, you know, Sam was actually the first person to ever shout me out ever in my career.
[00:03:24]  Yeah.
[00:03:25]  Praising me.
[00:03:26]  And so I said, we will cover travel and accommodation.
[00:03:29]  We'll fly you out.
[00:03:29]  We'll take care of everything.
[00:03:30]  Let me know what day works for you.
[00:03:31]  And he said something like the 13th.
[00:03:33]  And I was like, this is fantastic.
[00:03:35]  And then he DMed me and was like, I'm not coming on your show.
[00:03:37]  And I was like- Yeah, it was because of COVID restrictions.
[00:03:39]  I've seen the DMs.
[00:03:40]  I told him he should put it on.
[00:03:41]  I've told him he should put it on Twitter, but he's too good of a guy.
[00:03:44]  I mean, maybe he will, just to clarify.
[00:03:45]  Well, no, I published all the DMs.
[00:03:46]  Because then what he did was, he then, it's mostly water under the bridge, but he made some comment about, Me backing out or something.
[00:03:55]  And I was like, what are you talking about?
[00:03:57]  And then I mentioned to him, I was like, are you kidding, dude?
[00:03:59]  We're going to pay for everything.
[00:04:01]  And then he was just like, no, I'm not doing it.
[00:04:02]  Are you crazy?
[00:04:03]  Well, then just do it.
[00:04:03]  I mean, I'm sure he'd be down to come down soon and you guys could actually hash it out.
[00:04:08]  The issue has expanded more than that.
[00:04:11]  I mean, so at the same time, there was Hasan Piker, who also responded to my tweet.
[00:04:17]  And he said, I'd love to come.
[00:04:18]  And I said, when can you come?
[00:04:19]  And he said, let's figure out a date.
[00:04:20]  And so I DM'd him and he said, I gotta be honest, I'm actually concerned about COVID.
[00:04:24]  And I said, totally get it.
[00:04:26]  No worries, man.
[00:04:27]  Thanks for reaching out.
[00:04:28]  And that was the end of it.
[00:04:29]  Sam, however, used it on like a video and then started tweeting about it because it was drumming up a whole bunch of clicks and views.
[00:04:35]  And I'm like, okay, dude, I get it.
[00:04:37]  Interacting with this guy is just gonna create drama that he uses to get clicks.
[00:04:41]  I mean, the dude's got like 170 videos about Dave Rubin.
[00:04:44]  Yeah, we do cover that.
[00:04:45]  I mean, I think part of what we do is we try to respond to some of the right wing ecosystem on the internet because there's a vacuum truly left.
[00:04:56]  You guys have a lot more money than the left wing media space.
[00:04:59]  We just try to combat it a little bit.
[00:05:01]  I think the issue with that, I can understand why you'd say that, but it looks like this is a great way to kick off the show, actually, like the start of the cultural.
[00:05:08]  I actually don't think that whatever this space has more money because this is a fractured independent space of varying ideologies.
[00:05:16]  Tim, I'm in your compound right now.
[00:05:19]  Yeah, I'm rich.
[00:05:20]  What does that mean?
[00:05:20]  I live in a one bedroom.
[00:05:21]  I mean, how did you get rich?
[00:05:23]  I started a website, took memberships, sold ads on videos.
[00:05:26]  Yeah, but the reason that you get ads and that we don't is because you more adequately serve capitalism and we challenge it.
[00:05:35]  We got our ads pulled, what do you mean?
[00:05:36]  There's whole organizations dedicated to getting all of our ads removed.
[00:05:40]  Right, but the proof is in the pudding and where I'm sitting right now.
[00:05:43]  So this is memberships.
[00:05:44]  This is almost entirely because people pay to become members of our websites.
[00:05:49]  You know, if the majority report, you guys have been around a lot longer than I have.
[00:05:54]  The inability to provide a product to a customer does not mean that one political faction has more or is granted more because of capitalism or anything like that.
[00:06:06]  Like if Sam is unable to... I mean, Sam's had way more subscribers than me for a long, long time.
[00:06:10]  Right, right.
[00:06:11]  And I'm not saying this to be mean.
[00:06:15]  I'm saying if he doesn't know how to turn revenue, the issue is more so you need a COO or somebody who's going to say, here's how we provide something to a market that generates revenue so we can expand our business.
[00:06:29]  So we're better at that here, I suppose, is the easiest way to put it.
[00:06:32]  Well, no, because what you say here is more attractive to investors and advertisers.
[00:06:37]  I mean, we're basically only members... We have no investors.
[00:06:39]  Okay, well, other right-wing media like the Daily Wire and stuff like that, and even what... I'm looking at the Rumble... I don't know, what do you call that?
[00:06:48]  Logo right there.
[00:06:50]  Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a David Sachs.
[00:06:53]  That's a venture capital backed venture, I believe.
[00:06:56]  At the very least, Peter Thiel is involved and invested.
[00:06:59]  There's no equivalent on the left.
[00:07:00]  Why wouldn't you be able to get advertisers if like David Pakman and the Young Turks have advertisers?
[00:07:05]  Your content's not like too dissimilar.
[00:07:06]  We do have advertisers.
[00:07:07]  We just have, you know, advertisers that aren't A little bit more within our system of values and we're trying to combat corporate greed.
[00:07:16]  We don't have a ton of advertisers that I think align with leftist or we have advertisers that we try to include in terms of like leftist values as well, but just by the nature of left versus right.
[00:07:31]  It's asymmetrical warfare.
[00:07:33]  But honestly, Sam should just put those DMs out there.
[00:07:35]  You're passing on advertisers that don't align with your values.
[00:07:38]  So, like, you have those options.
[00:07:40]  We do the same thing.
[00:07:40]  We do literally the same.
[00:07:41]  We have, like, four advertisers.
[00:07:42]  We have, like, four.
[00:07:43]  Right.
[00:07:43]  OK.
[00:07:44]  So our website has no advertisers.
[00:07:46]  And it's almost entirely membership funded.
[00:07:48]  Yeah.
[00:07:48]  I mean, look.
[00:07:49]  Everything here is because people give us ten bucks a month.
[00:07:51]  We're really trying to cover politics on our program.
[00:07:54]  And I think that that's what is, like, our central focus.
[00:07:58]  Well, I make a video about me and music.
[00:08:00]  Well, I mean, it was a little fun because it was kind of funny.
[00:08:02]  But I mean, Sam comes from a comedy background as well.
[00:08:05]  I would say that I think you misrepresent what our show actually does.
[00:08:09]  The first hour, the free hour of our program before we go to the membership portion, is one that we literally have experts on on Social Security, on international politics.
[00:08:21]  It's not honestly something that is conducive It's dry.
[00:08:26]  It's not conducive necessarily to a ton of capital investment or advertisers.
[00:08:31]  And we're trying to make a difference in the world.
[00:08:33]  We don't have investment or... We have like four advertisers.
[00:08:36]  Actually we have zero advertisers and we got rid of them all.
[00:08:38]  So we ended all of our advertisers.
[00:08:41]  To be fair, on the podcast version of things I think we have like six.
[00:08:45]  On the YouTube side of things, we've actually gotten rid of all advertisements.
[00:08:48]  So now it's just like whatever YouTube does, they do.
[00:08:52]  Right.
[00:08:52]  And then we're starting our own companies.
[00:08:54]  The reason we started our own coffee company, it's because... I'm not going to say the name of this person, but there are organizations that lie in order to get our ads pulled.
[00:09:05]  And so that's happened to us.
[00:09:07]  Uh, one example is that there is, uh, well, I won't get into too much of it, but there's a group that has argued that I have claimed that Donald Trump won in 2020, and they've used that to raise tens of thousands of dollars.

=== Hoax vs. Abuse (03:03) ===

[00:09:21]  Okay.
[00:09:21]  I never said Donald Trump won in 2020.
[00:09:23]  In fact, since Joe Biden got inaugurated, I said Trump lost and these people need to accept it.
[00:09:28]  Right.
[00:09:28]  Well, you said there might be a race war.
[00:09:30]  There was that.
[00:09:31]  When did I say that?
[00:09:32]  I'm not sure, but you also said that the 10-year-old who got an abortion, who was raped, you called that a hoax.
[00:09:40]  Have you retracted that statement?
[00:09:42]  Uh, so there's very deep context to that.
[00:09:45]  What we're talking about when I say hoax.
[00:09:46]  But that's been proven.
[00:09:47]  I mean, charged.
[00:09:48]  The rapist has been charged and the doctor who provided the abortion, fined.
[00:09:52]  So this is a really good example of the problem in the culture where I would say, see, you don't, you don't know what actually said, because I didn't say what you're, what you're describing.
[00:09:59]  You did.
[00:09:59]  I just watched it last night.
[00:10:00]  Right.
[00:10:00]  And so what I said was the fact that they politicized this to win a political point is the hoax, not that the child was abused.
[00:10:09]  How does that constitute a hoax, Tim?
[00:10:12]  So, like, let's say, uh, there's a... What's a good example of this?
[00:10:17]  Uh, Ahmaud Arbery.
[00:10:19]  Ahmaud Arbery's a really great example.
[00:10:21]  Right?
[00:10:21]  So, uh, here's a... No, no, I'm talking about this example, though.
[00:10:25]  Right, right.
[00:10:25]  The one that I just brought up.
[00:10:26]  So, right.
[00:10:28]  If I can't explain to you that manipulating a story for political gain is the hoax, then I don't know what else... What's the manipulation?
[00:10:36]  Oh man, this is an old story.
[00:10:37]  I have to pull it up.
[00:10:38]  I think the issue was that they were able to actually get the treatment in state, but because of the law, they decided to seek it elsewhere.
[00:10:45]  And I said, that is a hoax.
[00:10:48]  I didn't say that it was a hoax, that the girl was abused.
[00:10:49]  I said, if They could have sought treatment in-state under the exemption.
[00:10:54]  I think it was Ohio, right?
[00:10:55]  There was an exemption saying in the cases of abuse, the treatments are permitted, but they decided to make a public statement and leave the state anyway.
[00:11:02]  I said, that is a hoax.
[00:11:03]  It was not a public statement.
[00:11:05]  No, no.
[00:11:06]  Rape and incest exemptions are non-actionable.
[00:11:09]  Um, this is, like, well-documented with abortion activists.
[00:11:12]  How long do you think it takes to prove a rape or incest case before you're able to use that carve-out to actually get an abortion?
[00:11:18]  Well, I don't— Doesn't it depend on how the law is written?
[00:11:20]  Do you have to prove it, or does it have to be alleged?
[00:11:22]  I mean, first of all, rape is one of the— Let me just answer that point real quick so we can clarify the thing on— Sure.
[00:11:25]  I never said it was a hoax that the girl was abused.
[00:11:28]  That is incorrect.
[00:11:29]  But I mean, but honestly, this is a part and parcel of what you do is you put that kind of statement out there and then you put caveats in to protect yourself.
[00:11:37]  Like me saying that someone manipulating a story for political gain is a hoax?
[00:11:41]  It's not a manipulation.
[00:11:42]  That is the kind of thing that's going to continue to happen as abortion restrictions happen throughout the country.
[00:11:47]  It's a particularly egregious example used to shine light on broader restrictions on abortion in this country.
[00:11:54]  I mean, it's an opinion, but you haven't retracted it.
[00:11:57]  It's false.
[00:11:57]  It's not false.
[00:11:58]  If there is a story and the story is exaggerated or manipulated in an effort to sway people into believing one political faction over the other, you are engaging in a hoax.

=== Cherry-Picking Crime? (15:30) ===

[00:12:10]  I mean, isn't that what you guys do when you post, like, extreme videos of crime and things like that?
[00:12:16]  We don't do that.
[00:12:16]  What are you talking about?
[00:12:17]  I mean, you respond to videos that are taken completely out of context, isolated instances.
[00:12:22]  Like what?
[00:12:23]  I don't think you watch the show, because that doesn't sound familiar.
[00:12:25]  I mean, I do a little bit.
[00:12:26]  No, you don't.
[00:12:26]  Because we don't do that.
[00:12:27]  Yeah, I do.
[00:12:28]  Yeah.
[00:12:28]  Yes, you do.
[00:12:29]  Well, that's not true, because we don't do that.
[00:12:31]  In fact, one of the points we make specifically is...
[00:12:35]  Subway crime to talk about all these inflated crime numbers and crime is down in New York City in 2020 by every metric I don't compare to what down compared to 2021 Publish if it's down in 20 compared to 2021 and there was a giant year-over-year increase from 2020 to 2021 Then you're talking about something it was down It wasn't giant.
[00:12:58]  It was a small bump from the pandemic.
[00:13:01]  A 47% increase in homicide in the city of New York is not a small bump.
[00:13:05]  Homicides have been on a precipitous decline since the 70s, since the 80s, since the 90s.
[00:13:12]  There was a bump because of desperation in the pandemic, and now it's back down in 2023.
[00:13:17]  It's irrefutable.
[00:13:17]  That's the NYPD's own data.
[00:13:19]  That's on all major crimes.
[00:13:20]  Murders, rapes, grand larcenies, robberies.
[00:13:24]  This is an argument I'm often confronted with, and it's actually pretty terrible.
[00:13:27]  So crime is down from the peak for sure, right?
[00:13:30]  In some years in New York City, we had 2,100 murders.
[00:13:33]  I think that's the largest ever in the history of the city of New York.
[00:13:36]  However, my standard isn't, it's not as bad as the worst time in the history of the city of New York.
[00:13:42]  When I see murders jump year over year from about 319 to 469.
[00:13:45]  What do you mean year over year?
[00:13:46]  The two years that I just listed?
[00:13:47]  Year over year, as in from 2020 to 2021.
[00:13:49]  That would be a year over year increase.
[00:13:54]  That is a dramatic increase, and it's the largest since, I believe, 2010.
[00:13:58]  The greatest year-over-year increase of all time in the city of New York, by the way.
[00:14:02]  But it's all the way back to 2010 numbers.
[00:14:04]  It's down again.
[00:14:05]  Yeah, it's down compared to the increase, but it's not down compared to 2019.
[00:14:09]  This was a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic where people's desperation and their mental health was severely harmed.
[00:14:17]  people were out of work, and that kind of desperation leads to more crime.
[00:14:21]  That's the reality of how crime works.
[00:14:23]  Poverty leads to crime.
[00:14:25]  - This is inaccurate. - Why do you think 25 people got shoved in front of trains last year?
[00:14:32]  - I don't know, dude.
[00:14:33]  - Well, that's a legitimate question.
[00:14:35]  You're saying poverty and desperation results in crime.
[00:14:38]  I'm wondering why it is that you've had these homeless guys, I think it's almost entirely these homeless guys, shoving people in front of trains.
[00:14:46]  Last year it was 25.
[00:14:48]  And so that that is.
[00:14:49]  So that's a mental health problem.
[00:14:50]  I mean, we have a we do have a mental health problem in this country.
[00:14:54]  We have an issue with not having socialized health care where people are unable to access health care, mental health care in particular, but also every other kind of health care.
[00:15:04]  28 million uninsured people in this country.
[00:15:06]  That's a massive problem.
[00:15:07]  I mean, what is your stance on Medicare for All and healthcare?
[00:15:11]  I'm for universal healthcare.
[00:15:12]  Oh, you are?
[00:15:12]  Okay.
[00:15:13]  Yeah, I think we'd have to have some kind of like basic coverage for universal standard, meaning like if you're having an episode, this is particularly where we bring you when we help you.
[00:15:24]  If you're broken bones, flu, things that it's like relatively simple and knowledge-based.
[00:15:30]  The challenge with it is that We got limited space, we got limited doctors, but, you know, I don't think we can function as a society if we have people just dying in the streets like we do with drug abuse and, you know, people losing their minds.
[00:15:41]  Well then you should promote housing first policies on your program.
[00:15:44]  Like in Houston, what they did, there was a pilot program under Obama, it was a HUD grant, and they reduced homelessness by 63% over 10 years.
[00:15:55]  Because they guaranteed housing.
[00:15:57]  Do you think that the 25 examples that you cite last year, and there's like over 2 million subway riders a day, so you cherry-picking them, I feel like is... It's not cherry-picking, it's... You mentioned that desperation leads to crime.
[00:16:09]  Yeah.
[00:16:10]  So I'm wondering why it is specifically that we saw this increase.
[00:16:13]  Is it like someone's desperate, but why murder somebody, you know what I mean?
[00:16:17]  Well, I mean, they're experiencing a mental health episode.
[00:16:21]  We do not have adequate health care in this country, mental health care.
[00:16:23]  I hear a lot of talk often after mass shootings that mental health is the most important thing in this country.
[00:16:29]  Then we should have socialized health care so everyone can have access to it.
[00:16:33]  And that paired with a housing first policy where cities don't become urban centers for just Bridge and Tunnelers who want to come in and see a show or for restaurant associations where places where people can actually live and there's guaranteed housing for people.
[00:16:52]  If we were able to do that, we would be able to drastically reduce the crime that you guys are talking about.
[00:16:57]  So when you're talking about poverty leading to crime, what is that based on?
[00:17:00]  Because after Prohibition was repealed, during the Great Depression, crime fell.
[00:17:05]  During the Great Recession, people with your line of thinking thought we would see a crime spike nationwide.
[00:17:10]  It didn't happen.
[00:17:11]  You could actually look at the crime wave if you wanted to pull it up.
[00:17:14]  That didn't occur.
[00:17:15]  And that was the largest recession in the history of this country since the Great Depression.
[00:17:20]  So what we've seen throughout American history is poverty not leading to crime.
[00:17:24]  What we actually see is the opposite, that crime drives areas into poverty.
[00:17:28]  We look at store closures across the country due to the fact that we have shoplifting.
[00:17:32]  That leads to decaying in the neighborhoods.
[00:17:34]  When people abandon the neighborhoods and you see this blight, that has a psychological impact on people and that drives people to commit these crimes.
[00:17:43]  I mean, you're working backwards from the... No, you're actually working backwards.
[00:17:46]  Wait, wait, wait, but no, no.
[00:17:47]  Poverty, clearly, this is a very simple concept, leads to something like shoplifting.
[00:17:51]  Why would someone shoplift based on a personal pathology?
[00:17:55]  They're shoplifting because they're desperate.
[00:17:57]  Not necessarily.
[00:17:58]  So we have a lot of lax shoplifting laws in California, for example.
[00:18:02]  And what they find is we have a lot of organized retail theft because there's no consequences for it.
[00:18:07]  That's profit.
[00:18:09]  People are trying to make money, and they're desperate.
[00:18:11]  And we have untold levels of income inequality in this country.
[00:18:14]  Well, is it income inequality or poverty?
[00:18:17]  Since the late 70s, 900%.
[00:18:18]  That's the increase in CEO pay versus 12% for the working class in this country.
[00:18:23]  You don't think that that leads to levels of desperation?
[00:18:26]  So wait, wait, is income inequality the cause or is poverty the cause?
[00:18:29]  Because those are two different things.
[00:18:31]  I mean, they go hand in hand.
[00:18:33]  They really don't.
[00:18:33]  Yes, they do.
[00:18:34]  Because all the wealth is going towards the CEOs and to the billionaires in this country.
[00:18:38]  But it's not a zero-sum economy.
[00:18:40]  And it's not trickling down.
[00:18:42]  But also, if income inequality is the driver of crime, then how come we saw a giant crime decline after the mid-90s when income inequality was going up?
[00:18:51]  In fact, we saw this happen all the way to 2019.
[00:18:53]  Can you repeat that?
[00:18:55]  We had a giant crime decline from around 1995-1996 nationwide from all the way to 2019 while income inequality was rising during that period of time.
[00:19:05]  Right.
[00:19:06]  So why would that occur if income inequality is driving crime?
[00:19:10]  I mean, I'm not exactly sure you're the expert, but I do know that you're saying that there was an increase in crime in 2021 and 2022, and it doesn't matter now that it's going back down to 2023 levels.
[00:19:23]  This is just New York City.
[00:19:24]  I can't see this, yeah.
[00:19:25]  I just pulled up New York City.
[00:19:26]  Look at that, right, exactly.
[00:19:27]  So at the start of 1990, crime was at its highest and it dropped rather massively.
[00:19:34]  Yes.
[00:19:35]  Into just before 2000, where it continued to decline.
[00:19:39]  And then from 2019 into 2020, we see a huge, a huge increase.
[00:19:44]  That's pre-pandemic.
[00:19:45]  So there's a couple interesting things to point out there.
[00:19:47]  No, to be clear, that's not that's not pre-pandemic.
[00:19:50]  That's the year over year increase.
[00:19:52]  So it would be in the year 2020, to be clear.
[00:19:54]  So 2019 would be a low number.
[00:19:56]  The increase, actually, the draw is before 2020, meaning that could be 2018 to 19, then, if that's the point you're making.
[00:20:02]  No, no, it's I've seen these numbers.
[00:20:04]  I'm telling you, you're reading this chart wrong, because in New York City, do they have the raw number of homicides on the side?
[00:20:10]  If you track it, you have this is just murders, right?
[00:20:13]  You have about 300.
[00:20:14]  And then it jumps to like 469.
[00:20:17]  I mean, crime dropped everywhere throughout the country.
[00:20:21]  Since lead gasoline was outlawed.
[00:20:24]  There is a massive connection.
[00:20:27]  Lead paint, lead gasoline predominantly affecting poor and lower income people, which probably did contribute to some of the increase in volatility in that kind of instance.
[00:20:38]  I completely agree.
[00:20:39]  I read that report.
[00:20:39]  It was fascinating that when we started taking lead out of the atmosphere, Crime started to drop, but that would also make the argument that it's not poverty driving crime.
[00:20:47]  It was like chemical imbalance or something.
[00:20:51]  It's both.
[00:20:52]  It's absolutely both.
[00:20:53]  Well, I think it would play a role, like the lead would play a role because it was in gasoline.
[00:20:57]  So it's in the air.
[00:20:58]  Yeah.
[00:20:58]  So it's impacting everyone.
[00:21:00]  It depresses brain function and things like that.
[00:21:02]  True.
[00:21:02]  I think public policy has a huge impact as well, because again, we saw a dramatic crime.
[00:21:07]  The crime wave started.
[00:21:09]  In the 1960s, right?
[00:21:11]  And this is when we started embracing this idea that poverty was the root cause of crime, that this was more the realm of the social workers, all things that sound really familiar to today.
[00:21:20]  And from 1960 all the way to 1979, the incarceration rate, even though in raw numbers it was rising, was dropping per capita.
[00:21:28]  So we saw this crime increase, and what you would end up getting in 1979 for murder, on average, was something like five years.
[00:21:36]  For rape, it was something like 3.4 years.
[00:21:38]  And obviously, like, this created a problem because we just weren't prosecuting people.
[00:21:43]  This is why we ended up going with a mass incarceration solution, which, by the way, did work, and all these other policies to get tough on crime.
[00:21:50]  You laugh, but you're definitely wrong.
[00:21:52]  No, I mean, mass incarceration, we incarcerate more people than any other country.
[00:21:56]  We have the highest rate of violent crime for any modern Western country.
[00:22:00]  I mean, I don't have that statistic in front of me, but we still... So how does that connect to the mass incarceration point?
[00:22:07]  If it worked, then what does the violent crime rate have to do with it?
[00:22:10]  You just want to warehouse more people?
[00:22:11]  No, when I say it worked, we started expanding the prison population seriously in the 1980s to the 1990s.
[00:22:19]  If you go to the Brennan Center for Criminal Justice, which is a left-wing organization, they say post the year 2000, mass incarceration lost its effectiveness.
[00:22:28]  But most of the mass incarceration was pre the year 2000.
[00:22:32]  So obviously it had some impact and it ranges.
[00:22:35]  Low estimates are about 6% on the crime rate, which is very low, but the high estimates are about 30%.
[00:22:40]  And the reason it worked is because the philosophy behind mass incarceration is pretty simple.
[00:22:44]  What you're trying to do is incapacitate criminals because the same criminals are often re-offending.
[00:22:49]  You brought up shoplifting earlier.
[00:22:51]  You can actually pull up an article to find out that the same 300 people in New York City represent a third of the shoplifting arrests total for a single year.
[00:22:59]  Probably because they're incredibly impoverished and they need to find a way to actually sustain their livelihoods in this country.
[00:23:08]  But that's put a very good way.
[00:23:11]  That's phrased very well, to maintain their livelihoods.
[00:23:14]  Well, no, I mean, no, their life is a better way to maintain it.
[00:23:17]  Sure, sure.
[00:23:18]  But, like, I guess my point is some of them certainly are desperate.
[00:23:23]  But when you see videos of a guy, like, shoveling stuff into a garbage bag, that's not desperation.
[00:23:26]  That's profit.
[00:23:27]  But again, this is what you do, Tim.
[00:23:29]  You return to anecdotal examples when I'm trying to talk about... We're talking about just the 300 people.
[00:23:34]  And I am talking- Which is the anecdotal evidence.
[00:23:36]  What, what 300 people?
[00:23:37]  He said the same 300 people, the ones committing the crime.
[00:23:39]  I said, right, third of the shoplifting arrests in New York City.
[00:23:41]  These specific individuals are doing it for profit.
[00:23:42]  Okay, so we should have a system of mass incarceration because there are 300- I didn't say that.
[00:23:46]  Because I'm talking to you now.
[00:23:48]  There are 300 repeat offenders.
[00:23:50]  No, no.
[00:23:50]  We should incapacitate repeat offenders so they stop offending.
[00:23:55]  Got it.
[00:23:55]  So this is all about the fact that you're not in favor of bail reform because in New York State, which is now currently being rolled back, we decided that we weren't going to require cash bail for nonviolent felonies and for misdemeanors.
[00:24:09]  And you think that that's a good policy?
[00:24:11]  to not require cash bail yeah uh no i think or that that that we're rolling it back i think i think look if if you're concerned about people not being able to get out of jail because of their financial means then i can understand reducing or even eliminating the cash bail system because i understand if you don't have a lot of money even though you really only have to throw down 10 for bail in most cases unless it's a you know like a set figure for the bond then i get that argument but But what you need, and the state of New York desperately needs this, is some kind of threat assessment.
[00:24:41]  Like you should be able to hold somebody if they present themselves as a danger or a repeat offender, regardless of bail, without bail, so that they don't continue to re-offend.
[00:24:51]  Okay, but do you know what happens when people are held in Rikers, for example, in a pre-detention center?
[00:24:57]  How many deaths have happened there before they're even convicted of a crime?
[00:25:00]  Again, that's an issue for how the jailing system works in New York City, and I'm in favor of building out the jail capacity.
[00:25:07]  You're talking about cash bail, though.
[00:25:09]  That is exactly the point that we're discussing here.
[00:25:14]  Right.
[00:25:14]  So you're in favor of people being held before they're convicted of a crime.
[00:25:18]  Yes.
[00:25:18]  In Rikers.
[00:25:19]  If they show a propensity to re-offend, a hundred percent.
[00:25:22]  What is a propensity to re-offend?
[00:25:24]  A history, like being arrested over and over again, prior convictions.
[00:25:28]  Yes.
[00:25:28]  So you think that they should be held in a prison that has been... It's a jail, but yes.
[00:25:33]  Or jail, excuse me.
[00:25:35]  A jail that has been proven to be one of the worst conditions in the country.
[00:25:39]  Well, it doesn't have to be specifically Rikers Island.
[00:25:41]  Dozens of deaths just this year.
[00:25:43]  Even if they haven't been committed of a crime.
[00:25:45]  Convicted of a crime?
[00:25:46]  Convicted of a crime.
[00:25:47]  Yeah, for sure.
[00:25:48]  But that's very anti-constitutional and anti-democratic.
[00:25:51]  How is it anti-constitutional?
[00:25:52]  The 4th Amendment.
[00:25:53]  It violates the 4th Amendment.
[00:25:55]  Protects you from illegal search and seizures?
[00:25:57]  Well, I mean, the right to a speedy trial.
[00:26:00]  People are held there.
[00:26:01]  I'm sorry, 5th Amendment, yes.
[00:26:02]  I do think we should have reform on the speedy trial side, but the idea that it's unconstitutional to hold somebody pretrial is ridiculous.
[00:26:09]  Our law is based on English common law.
[00:26:11]  Six, damn!
[00:26:13]  Our law is based on English common law and the reason we have jails is that you would actually be held in a dungeon awaiting trial.
[00:26:21]  So it's like built into the system.
[00:26:22]  Bail is like a courtesy.
[00:26:23]  It's actually a progressive reform in response to that where you lay down some kind of capital in place of yourself.
[00:26:29]  How much money do you want to spend on jails in New York City?
[00:26:32]  As much as it takes.
[00:26:33]  So just warehousing people before they're convicted of anything.
[00:26:36]  Well, again, it's not warehousing everybody.
[00:26:39]  But if you have a propensity to reoffend, I think judges should be able to have judgment.
[00:26:43]  It's kind of in the name and assess these people and hold them.
[00:26:46]  So you just want to give it to the judgment of the judges.
[00:26:50]  Yes, I would like the judges to have judgment, yes.
[00:26:52]  OK, but there should be guardrails in place to prevent judges from... I mean, judges are human beings.
[00:26:59]  They can be unjust as well.
[00:27:01]  I don't really put them on the pedestal that you do.
[00:27:03]  Obviously, I'm not in favor of like a million dollar bond for somebody who's arrested for shoplifting, even if they're arrested 27 times.
[00:27:09]  So, yeah, you can have guardrails from the legislature, but they can't assess dangerousness right now in the state of New York.
[00:27:15]  They assess it in ways, the reason we put this law into place, which is now being rolled back, that were deemed inherently racist.

=== Stop and Frisk Controversy (06:30) ===

[00:27:22]  How so?
[00:27:22]  They deem that it was disproportionately black and brown people who are warehouses.
[00:27:27]  Okay, but how's that racist though?
[00:27:29]  Because at their discretion, it was put into, it was implemented in a racist way.
[00:27:33]  But if you look at the crime statistics, they're disproportionately black and Hispanic.
[00:27:37]  So this is what the reality is for you, is you believe that black and Hispanic people When did I say inherently?
[00:27:45]  If you pull up like NYPD crime data, for instance, since you brought up stop and frisk, you can look at the shootings, like the shooting suspects in any given year.
[00:27:53]  And if you find me a year where 92% or greater is not black or Hispanic in terms of the shooting suspects, then I mean, I would be shocked because I've looked at it for the past 20 years.
[00:28:06]  So that's the cops discretion.
[00:28:08]  No, no, you get a report, and you get a description of the suspect, and they are 92% every single year or above black or hispanic.
[00:28:17]  Can I tell you guys a very famous New York story?
[00:28:20]  There was a black cop, and he went to Central Park and started giving out tickets to white couples having picnics and drinking wine.
[00:28:28]  And he said, public alcohol consumption is a crime in the city, and he started giving these Uppity yuppies tickets.
[00:28:34]  Right.
[00:28:34]  He got in serious trouble.
[00:28:35]  The reason he did it was because the cops would go into the black neighborhoods and give people drinking 40s on their stoops tickets.
[00:28:41]  And he said, how can these people at their own homes on their own porches get a ticket for drinking booze?
[00:28:46]  Then when I go into Central Park and say, we're going to apply the same standard, I get in trouble for it.
[00:28:51]  So New York's got serious problems.
[00:28:52]  Even Bloomberg, like that guy's awful.
[00:28:55]  He made a bunch of, like, I'm not going to say that- But the reason- I just want to cut you off because you mentioned Bloomberg and I want to respond to what you said.
[00:29:02]  Under Bloomberg, 90% of the stop and frisks that were done were, by the way, they didn't find anything, but 90% targeted black and brown people.
[00:29:11]  So it's- you're taking- So the highest number, by the way, is 86%, not 90%, but go ahead.
[00:29:16]  You're taking the data.
[00:29:18]  You're taking the data.
[00:29:19]  Okay, so you're wrong in a bunch of different ways, so let me just run through them.
[00:29:22]  and then pretending like there's an over-representation inherently criminally in those kinds of populations.
[00:29:30]  And it's a racist argument. - So you're wrong in a bunch of different ways.
[00:29:34]  So let me just like run through them.
[00:29:36]  So first and foremost, the highest year was 86%.
[00:29:39]  And that was the year with the dramatic increase in stops.
[00:29:41]  And if you ask me if I'm in favor of just expanding stop and frisk, which is different from Giuliani's stop question and frisk, although, you know, you might not be interested in that specific difference, to the levels that Bloomberg did, I would say it's unnecessary.
[00:29:53]  It aggravates people, creates a whole bunch of problems.
[00:29:55]  That being said, they're not over-targeted because again, there is no year during the entire tenure of Bloomberg where the shooting suspects were any less than 92%.
[00:30:06]  So what the NYPD does, because it's the most data-driven police force in the entire world, is they map crime through a system called Comstat.
[00:30:13]  When there's a lot of shootings in a specific area, they send the police to those areas.
[00:30:17]  The stops, questions, and frisks all relate to where the shootings are, and it just so happens to be those areas are black or Hispanic.
[00:30:26]  Right, but do you get accosted on the street by cops regularly in New York City?
[00:30:31]  It happened to me when I was younger, yes, but not now.
[00:30:34]  But do you understand?
[00:30:35]  But to your point about hit rate, because you brought it up, hit rate was not the goal of Stop Question and Frisk.
[00:30:40]  Like, this is one of the things where you're like, oh, well, this program didn't work because my standard that I look for arbitrarily shows that it was ineffective.
[00:30:49]  That's like saying a plane doesn't work because it's not a good submarine.
[00:30:52]  Like, that doesn't make any sense.
[00:30:54]  90% of the Stop and Frisk came up with nothing.
[00:30:55]  True, but the point was to deter the carrying of firearms.
[00:30:58]  Say, have you done illegal drugs in your life?
[00:31:02]  I have, I have.
[00:31:04]  I could have been stopped and frisked and I could have gone to prison or I could have been held if I had a little bit less money in Rikers indefinitely until my trial came because a cop just decided, hey I'm gonna stop and frisk you but they wouldn't do that to me because I'm a white woman.
[00:31:19]  That's nice, but anyway, it's about shootings and the point of the program, and this is shaded quite literally to deter people from carrying illegal firearms.
[00:31:28]  Are you in favor of gun control?
[00:31:33]  Mmm I'm a New Yorker so I'm not like a big gun guy but Let me this is my point where it's hard to get guns.
[00:31:41]  I mean, that's why you definitely But Emma's not gonna agree with me The idea that the police can decide to arbitrarily stop people because they might be carrying a firearm Violates the second and fourth amendments well get up and frisk is completely unconstitutional.
[00:31:56]  Well That's why Fourth Amendment was in my mind.
[00:31:58]  Well again, you're supposed to stop, question, and frisk, and usually it's based on reasonable suspicion.
[00:32:03]  And what, I'm bearing arms under the Constitution?
[00:32:06]  They're supposed to follow the Terry standard.
[00:32:08]  I, they, this idea that because a particular group of people may be carrying guns, we're going to go start stopping a whole bunch of them.
[00:32:16]  I'm like, the constitution protects our right to keep and bear arms in the first place.
[00:32:20]  So now you're violating, you're using the second, you're ignoring the second amendment and using that as, and by ignoring it, now you're violating the fourth amendment.
[00:32:28]  I mean, this is, it's absolutely nonsense.
[00:32:29]  This is why I'm actually critical of Bloomberg expansion of the program, because the way it used to work is that if you had a shooting suspect, you would have a description, you'd send cops to the area and they would stop people with that description, ask them questions.
[00:32:42]  And if there was a reasonable suspicion, they would conduct a search.
[00:32:46]  This is why under Giuliani, the maximum amount of stops in a year, and you know, New York City of 8.5 million people, was 90,000 people, and under Bloomberg, it was something like 700,000, maybe 800,000 people.
[00:32:57]  So he dramatically expanded the program to the point where I do think it was constitutionally violative.
[00:33:04]  So you are kind of to the right of Donald Trump on this, who has been releasing non-violent offenders.
[00:33:10]  Donald Trump's first step back is absolutely terrible.
[00:33:13]  It sets up a bunch of incentives.
[00:33:15]  I mean, you're further right than I imagine a ton of his audience is.
[00:33:19]  I mean, that's fine.
[00:33:22]  I'm not here to win over the audience.
[00:33:23]  Well, I will win over the audience because I'm correct.
[00:33:25]  No, this is mostly moderate.
[00:33:27]  Donald Trump's first step back had a lot of language about going soft on youthful offenders.
[00:33:32]  And that's one of the reason why a huge portion of the increase in homicide that we're seeing is among young men and specifically among young black men in this country.

=== Murder Rate Spike (08:30) ===

[00:33:40]  I want to bring your guys' attention to this chart because there's a lot that it shows.
[00:33:45]  I know it's just murders.
[00:33:46]  But we're talking about, you mentioned something about the 60s.
[00:33:49]  For some reason in 1962 to 64 we start seeing, from 1962 onward, a ridiculous spike in the murder rate offenses per 100,000 population.
[00:33:58]  I don't know exactly why.
[00:34:00]  We can see around 1990 it starts to decline rapidly.
[00:34:03]  There's a couple interesting points there.
[00:34:05]  This is U.S.
[00:34:06]  murder rate, so New York City's broken window policing has nothing to do with it, this is the entirety of the country.
[00:34:10]  This could be one of two things.
[00:34:12]  The leaded gasoline, that was the 80s, right?
[00:34:15]  I believe so, yeah.
[00:34:15]  We were getting rid of it.
[00:34:16]  And the last truck, I think for trucks, it was the 90s.
[00:34:20]  But this also coincides with one of the, if not the, largest economic expansion, or I shouldn't say that now because who knows how you define it with the pandemic and all that stuff, but we had a massive economic boom in the 90s.
[00:34:33]  So this would interestingly correlate with the idea that as people started to get more things, like their lives started to improve, murder rates started to drop dramatically.
[00:34:40]  Yeah, and I would say that there was that was a temporary kind of sugar high based on neoliberal policies of Reagan and Clinton where there was a lot of money that was released back into the public because of massive tax cuts.
[00:34:54]  I mean, we can talk about Confiscatory taxation, if you'd like, and the top marginal tax rate.
[00:34:59]  You know, the top marginal tax rate in 1961, it's funny that you brought up that figure in 1960, it's 91% compared to 37% now.
[00:35:09]  It went down in the 60s?
[00:35:11]  Reagan cut a bunch of taxes during that time period and a lot of people got an influx in cash and then... Crime didn't drop!
[00:35:18]  Sorry?
[00:35:18]  Crime did drop.
[00:35:19]  Well, right, but that was temporary.
[00:35:21]  That was temporary.
[00:35:22]  And then the income inequality kind of set in and the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.
[00:35:26]  And that's mostly what I'm interested in talking about on my program.
[00:35:29]  Let me show you guys something which will add some context to the current crime spike.
[00:35:34]  So you see right here this drop-off after about it looks like about 2007 there's a major drop-off in murder and then it spikes in 2014.
[00:35:44]  The problem with a chart like this is that it doesn't account for technology.
[00:35:47]  The reason the murder rate declined in 2007 was cell phones.
[00:35:52]  So, when cell phones became ubiquitous, the ability to call emergency services became instantaneous.
[00:35:57]  So when people were victims of violent crime, you had emergency service notified immediately.
[00:36:02]  And so this resulted in a drop in the murder rate, but not a drop in violent crimes.
[00:36:08]  Not a direct correlation, meaning crime had been going down, but the murder rate dropped more than violent crime in general because people weren't dying.
[00:36:15]  They were being stabbed, they were being robbed, they were being shot, and they were living.
[00:36:18]  That's not murder, so it wasn't counted as murder.
[00:36:20]  Well, there is a chart, by the way, that you can look at because that actually pairs recessions with this murder chart.
[00:36:27]  And again, the correlation is not really there.
[00:36:29]  And as far as New York, you say that it had nothing to do with broken windows policing.
[00:36:34]  That map specifically was the U.S.
[00:36:35]  Yeah, I know, but you said it had nothing to do with broken windows policing, but that assumes that there isn't a greater decrease in crime in New York than nationwide, which is not the case.
[00:36:46]  There was a greater decrease in the city of New York.
[00:36:48]  Like, Chicago had a decline too, but Chicago's homicide rate, which is almost on par with the city of New York, is six times higher per capita than the city of New York.
[00:36:56]  And in terms of raw numbers, it's double, even though they're at a third of the population, which is the same thing that I just said with different math.
[00:37:02]  So New York became the safest big city and our crime rate actually declined.
[00:37:06]  And in fact, Freakonomics actually attributes this to the legalization of abortion, which happened in the city of New York pre Roe versus Wade.
[00:37:14]  It was one of the of the six states that had it legal electively.
[00:37:17]  So this is like a known thing that people have talked about and speculated on what the result is.
[00:37:22]  Now also for the environmental point- - Wait, can I just ask you a question about that? - Sure.
[00:37:26]  - What does the connection to, what does crime have the connection? - That's what Freakonomics says that the legalization of abortion and they compare it to Ceausescu, whatever country he was the dictator of, they say that that correlates with crime because they say all these unwanted children end up being born and then they end up committing- Well, that is certainly a claim.
[00:37:45]  So that's how that works together then?
[00:37:46]  You're saying that abortion should be illegal, uh, for that reason?
[00:37:51]  No, no, no.
[00:37:51]  It would be legal abortion leads to less unwanted children being born.
[00:37:55]  And again, you're smiling, but I mean, well, I'm actually pro choice, but not for this reason.
[00:38:01]  But you're smiling.
[00:38:02]  But the thing is, this is what was proposed in Freakonomics.
[00:38:05]  I actually disagree with their analysis.
[00:38:06]  They leave a lot of things out.
[00:38:08]  But again, I use that as an example to show that the New York decline did start before the national decline.
[00:38:14]  I'm almost positive that that study has been called into question multiple times.
[00:38:17]  Just to clarify, you're saying more abortions meant lower crime?
[00:38:19]  Is that what you're saying?
[00:38:20]  That's what Freakonomics asserted.
[00:38:21]  It's in their little movie and it's in their original book.
[00:38:25]  I think that makes sense.
[00:38:26]  If you've got if you've got two parents, you've got one parent, they got a baby, that baby's getting food.
[00:38:32]  You know, like you could have no job.
[00:38:34]  You could be homeless.
[00:38:35]  Someone's going to find.
[00:38:36]  Well, you know what?
[00:38:36]  I would love to decrease desperation in terms of families in this country.
[00:38:42]  I'm not sure if you've talked about it a ton on your program, Tim, but we should have made the child tax credit permanent that we expanded in the twenty twenty one American Rescue Act.
[00:38:51]  Can you explain what that is?
[00:38:51]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:52]  So, there was a tax credit that was in place, but during the pandemic, it was expanded to be a monthly payment.
[00:38:59]  Also, the amount was increased, so it was up to $3,600 a month for 6 and under, $3,000 for 6 to 17, and then it also was expanded to include people who had too little income to qualify previously.
[00:39:14]  We cut child poverty by nearly in half.
[00:39:17]  Instantly.
[00:39:18]  And the reason that we don't have it is because the entire Republican Party and Joe Manchin and Sinema essentially nixed it.
[00:39:26]  But this is the kind of stuff that's possible in this country to make people less desperate.
[00:39:30]  If you want less crime, make society a broader, more beneficial place for people with a bigger safety net so people don't have to turn to desperation.
[00:39:39]  Real quick, this is the crazy thing.
[00:39:41]  I think the only people who disagree with that are establishment Republicans, like the prominent Republican Party members.
[00:39:47]  But you should talk about it more on your show.
[00:39:49]  We do.
[00:39:49]  I mean, I think that what after... I'll go extreme with it.
[00:39:53]  If after your second kid, no more taxes.
[00:39:56]  Income tax zero.
[00:39:57]  Have two kids, no taxes.
[00:40:00]  I mean, I know that there have been certain proposals.
[00:40:05]  In places like Hungary that are like that, but they are heavily, heavily tilted towards heterosexual families as opposed to if a gay couple wants to adopt or have children.
[00:40:17]  I don't agree with that because I want more taxation, frankly, so that we could have socialized health care, we could have a College for All Act, which honestly you could pay for With the tax on Wall Street speculation, it would be incredibly easy.
[00:40:31]  It's only $48 billion a year, which is less than the military budget increase that we did in 21 to 22, which is around $71 billion.
[00:40:38]  I want to do that kind of stuff.
[00:40:41]  And so getting rid of income tax, I would not be in favor of it.
[00:40:45]  But if you want to create tax incentives for families so that they can raise their kids and they aren't in poverty, I am all for that, Tim.
[00:40:53]  To your point about nobody would disagree, I would 100% disagree with that because again... You don't want tax credits for people that have babies?
[00:40:59]  There is not a demonstration that these policies work in reducing crime.
[00:41:04]  In fact, we see the opposite.
[00:41:05]  If you put up that homicide chart, it starts increasing during the war on poverty, which is the greatest increase in... Sorry, go ahead.
[00:41:14]  Not talking about crime.
[00:41:16]  Well, she was.
[00:41:16]  She said if you wanted to deal with crime, this is how you do it.
[00:41:18]  Well, I'm trying to connect it to this, but like... Right, right.
[00:41:21]  In the broader sense, I think... I think the most important thing to take away from this here is that every single Republican voted against the American Rescue Act and the expanded child tax credit.
[00:41:30]  There is one party that is Look, it's not good enough.
[00:41:34]  I'm more obviously in the Bernie Sanders wing.
[00:41:36]  I have deep disagreements with Hillary Clinton-esque neoliberal politicians.
[00:41:42]  But yeah, it's the Democratic Party in favor of policies that are going to be helping people on a day-to-day basis like this.
[00:41:48]  The Republicans voted against a broad bill that included one thing in it?

=== Ron DeSantis Controversies (15:42) ===

[00:41:52]  Is that what happened?
[00:41:53]  Yeah, but they also fought tooth and nail about the actual child tax credit.
[00:41:58]  This was a part of the Inflation Reduction Act negotiations as well.
[00:42:01]  They were not in favor of that, too.
[00:42:03]  And Joe Manchin, your senator, right?
[00:42:04]  We're here in West Virginia.
[00:42:05]  Oh, he's awful.
[00:42:06]  We hate him.
[00:42:07]  I mean, you gotta like, I mean, you're a celebrity here, right, Tim?
[00:42:10]  In West Virginia, you should call on Joe Manchin and say, hey, why don't you do this?
[00:42:15]  Why are you not in favor of a child tax credit?
[00:42:16]  That dude is neoliberal.
[00:42:18]  Totally.
[00:42:19]  I mean, he's very unpopular.
[00:42:20]  It's like nobody in West Virginia wants the guy.
[00:42:23]  Right.
[00:42:23]  I mean, he's very unpopular.
[00:42:24]  Right.
[00:42:25]  That's not true.
[00:42:26]  He's actually the most popular politician in West Virginia history.
[00:42:28]  Go talk to some people in West Virginia.
[00:42:29]  I'm sure you could find people.
[00:42:31]  Find people?
[00:42:31]  Dude, I get what I'm here.
[00:42:32]  The numbers are in the tank right now.
[00:42:34]  I'm in right wing nut job territory.
[00:42:36]  This guy lost his mind.
[00:42:37]  I get why you're against him.
[00:42:39]  Maybe four years ago he was popular because the state, for whatever reason, but people are not happy with him today.
[00:42:46]  I've not met a single person here who likes him.
[00:42:49]  I mean, they might be upset with him now, but... No, he's tanking and polling numbers in hypothetical matchups with Jim Justice in the Senate.
[00:42:54]  That's actually a fact.
[00:42:56]  West Virginia, 86% Trump-supporting state.
[00:43:00]  All of those people despise him for obvious reasons.
[00:43:02]  But then you go and meet some of the more moderate, don't really care, middle-of-the-road people, and they're just like, what happened to that guy?
[00:43:08]  And look, man, I see what you're saying, but I'm telling you, like, No, I get why you're against him because- It's not about me, I'm saying like, we'll go hang out in any one of these- and this is the panhandle, don't get me wrong, but I'm even- we were hanging out in Charleston, uh, five hours from here.
[00:43:22]  Not a single person I've ever met in West Virginia is like, I like that guy.
[00:43:25]  Not one.
[00:43:26]  I've talked to people who are like, who have told me, in West Virginia, that they don't like Trump, they would rather have DeSantis, and then they say, Manchin's gotta go, he's gotta go, we gotta get somebody else, he's awful.
[00:43:36]  Because he's like, He's not a Democrat or a Republican at this point.
[00:43:40]  It's like he's a corporate... That's it.
[00:43:43]  It's like he's of the corporate party.
[00:43:45]  He doesn't seem to be catering to anybody.
[00:43:47]  He has a fine line to walk, in my opinion, to hold a state like this as a Democrat.
[00:43:51]  I get why she, being more progressive, doesn't like him, but he's one of the only Democrats that could have won here, which is why when they tried running a progressive in the primary, that person got slaughtered by him.
[00:44:03]  But I get why you would want to replace him.
[00:44:06]  I want to replace him.
[00:44:06]  The Republicans lost the Senate.
[00:44:08]  Jim Justice is very likely.
[00:44:10]  Sorry, I just want to point this out.
[00:44:11]  Off the top of my head, I think Manchin's numbers are like 55% disapproval right now.
[00:44:15]  I can't see him winning.
[00:44:16]  I mean, look, I don't know for sure.
[00:44:17]  I'm not psychic.
[00:44:18]  But everyone I talk to, it's like you've got, I think it's, who is it, Mooney, potentially, and Jim Justice.
[00:44:26]  But Jim Justice seems very likely to get it.
[00:44:29]  We'll see.
[00:44:29]  I don't know for sure.
[00:44:29]  Well, you brought you brought up Trump and DeSantis in West Virginia.
[00:44:32]  I'm curious because I saw Tim, you know, you've been like upset a little bit about how DeSantis has been or maybe not upset.
[00:44:40]  OK, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:44:42]  Oh, you're pissed.
[00:44:43]  All right.
[00:44:43]  So so so I'll characterize this.
[00:44:45]  You're a little pissed at how DeSantis has been using those images of Trump.
[00:44:50]  Trump used three of them one time.
[00:44:52]  Yeah.
[00:44:53]  What I mean, can you expand on that?
[00:44:54]  That thought?
[00:44:55]  Ron DeSantis, his team.
[00:44:57]  In order to smear Donald Trump, ran fake images of him kissing and hugging Fauci alongside real images and then wrote real life Trump over the top.
[00:45:05]  Right.
[00:45:06]  And it's one thing to play politics, which I despise, when you get someone being like, you know, Nancy Pelosi voted against this act.
[00:45:14]  It's like the Saving Puppies Act, but it's actually a bill that like cuts taxes for oil companies or the inverse where it's like, you know, insert Republican voted for whatever.
[00:45:25]  I despise all of that.
[00:45:26]  But actually fabricating images, shrinking them down and placing them alongside real images and writing real life Trump on it.
[00:45:33]  Can you pull up the image so I can see it?
[00:45:35]  Yeah.
[00:45:35]  So, I mean, is that kind of the core of your, are you, would you say as of now, if you were to vote today, you'd be voting for Trump?
[00:45:42]  Yeah.
[00:45:43]  But that's the core of your disagreement?
[00:45:46]  So, oh, there's a lot more than that.
[00:45:47]  Here, take a look at this.
[00:45:49]  This is, this is, I feel like this is campaign ending.
[00:45:54]  I feel like this... Really?
[00:45:56]  Yes.
[00:45:56]  I mean, it's funny to me.
[00:45:57]  The manufacture of fake images to trick people into voting for someone is... Look, this is the open door.
[00:46:06]  Ron DeSantis decided to be the person to stick his foot over the line and say, we will manufacture fake images to win.
[00:46:13]  I mean, they do say that they're fake.
[00:46:15]  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no They ran it as real life Trump.
[00:46:30]  Now, I understand if you scrutinize the images, you can tell they're fake.
[00:46:33]  This one says Mehehap Wems.
[00:46:36]  Okay, that's not English.
[00:46:38]  And it's under the White House emblem.
[00:46:39]  But when it's in a video that's a minute long, and you pass this, I've already had people tell me that they didn't realize it was fake.
[00:46:48]  And I've heard people say, I talked to my parents about it, they thought it was real.
[00:46:51]  And so what the DeSantis fans are doing now is they're like, can you believe Tim actually thought those were real?
[00:46:58]  Like, dude, if you wanna play that game and call me stupid and insult me for calling out DeSantis' campaign for doing this, I literally don't care.
[00:47:07]  It changes nothing of my moral stance that this stepped well over the line.
[00:47:11]  Now, I gotta be honest, you go back in time to the first time a politician lied, and people were probably like, can you believe he actually lied to us?
[00:47:17]  And we know that's bad, and I hate all of it, but this is the next level.
[00:47:22]  This is like... Yeah.
[00:47:24]  It's bad enough they're all lying.
[00:47:26]  Well, what's the core of your disagreement otherwise then?
[00:47:29]  I mean, because if it's with COVID, I would say I'm more on Trump's side with that kind of stuff.
[00:47:35]  I liked Operation Warp Speed.
[00:47:36]  Look, I would have done a little differently for giving away government money for vaccines that we should have nationalized them and the intellectual property should have been waived so that everybody could have had access to it also when the poll was out.
[00:47:48]  Publicly funded should be publicly owned.
[00:47:50]  I'm in favor of that, Tim.
[00:47:51]  So, I mean, that's one thing that I think Trump is better.
[00:47:54]  And look, just DeSantis is, frankly, an anti-LGBTQ demagogue.
[00:47:59]  And that's where I would... I think Trump's less dangerous than DeSantis.
[00:48:04]  He is, but I think it's more so the Florida legislature that's doing it.
[00:48:08]  And then he's latching onto it, because I think when it comes to real issues related to this stuff, he's mum.
[00:48:13]  I mean, he's been... Anti-wokeness is the center of his campaign.
[00:48:17]  Yeah, he kinda made that at the forefront of his campaign.
[00:48:19]  No, no, for sure, for sure, for sure.
[00:48:20]  I like DeSantis in a lot of ways.
[00:48:22]  Some wouldn't even send the National Guard against the Black Lives Matter rioters.
[00:48:26]  That's a different question.
[00:48:27]  That's not wokeness.
[00:48:28]  That's like crime and law and stuff.
[00:48:30]  DeSantis, I think, is mostly surface level.
[00:48:34]  I like a lot of his policies.
[00:48:36]  I think he's...
[00:48:37]  What do you like about his policies?
[00:48:39]  I mean, at the beginning of COVID, he wasn't particularly good, right?
[00:48:43]  He did a lot of what everyone else did.
[00:48:45]  But to be fair, I was very much like, I guess, I was very much, you know, Thomas Massey didn't want to do this big spending bill.
[00:48:53]  And I said, this is crazy.
[00:48:55]  The economy, like, we don't know what's going on.
[00:48:56]  There are people dying.
[00:48:57]  We're seeing videos of people dying in the street.
[00:48:59]  And so I think, hindsight being 20-20, I look back and I'm like, I probably should not have just gone along with all of that.
[00:49:05]  That was probably stupid.
[00:49:07]  Ron DeSantis did initially, but then changed and said, you know what, this is not making sense, we're reopening.
[00:49:11]  And I think that made a lot more sense.
[00:49:13]  It was also under extreme pressure, like Andrew Cuomo was the most promoted governor in the country, and he was the most attacked.
[00:49:19]  So DeSantis did well in, not the first, but he did well in reopening things back up.
[00:49:26]  But what policies do you like generally about him?
[00:49:28]  I mean, besides the COVID stuff, what are the other policies, like as governor?
[00:49:32]  I mean, you think it's just the state legislature that's putting together these anti- I mean, look, Sam, you said that there was a grooming event happening at Club Q, and that was after the shooting, right?
[00:49:44]  Which is essentially kind of saying, well, look, they had it coming a little bit.
[00:49:48]  I mean, you didn't say that, but that's the implication.
[00:49:50]  I actually said, how do we prevent these things from happening?
[00:49:52]  So I tweeted- So you actually seem pretty aligned with DeSantis on the- Absolutely.
[00:49:57]  But I don't think it's him.
[00:49:58]  I think it's the Florida legislature.
[00:50:00]  And if DeSantis becomes president, you think Congress is going to vote for any of these things?
[00:50:04]  As for the Club Q thing, I said, if people keep saying, woodchippers, what did you think was going to happen, right?
[00:50:11]  I am saying, stop saying these things.
[00:50:14]  Saying what?
[00:50:15]  People keep going online and going, woodchippers, woodchippers, woodchippers.
[00:50:17]  You know what that means, right?
[00:50:18]  For who, though?
[00:50:19]  For groomers.
[00:50:20]  Right, okay.
[00:50:21]  And I'm like, what do you think is going to happen if you go online and keep calling for death?
[00:50:24]  Like, don't do that.
[00:50:25]  Stop that, right?
[00:50:26]  We want to stop child abuse.
[00:50:28]  We want to stop violence.
[00:50:29]  That's what we want.
[00:50:30]  So that's why I hope you have dedicated so much of your program to talking about the Catholic Church, because that is the institution in this country right now that is most associated with child abuse, and queer people, gay people, trans people, that is not a thing.
[00:50:44]  What is your definition of child abuse?
[00:50:46]  They're most associated, but they're actually not more abusive than any other religious institution, and they're not nearly as abusive as the public school system.
[00:50:52]  No, no, no, I want to stay on this, and I also just... Where are the books at?
[00:50:56]  Where do they get moved to?
[00:50:58]  Tim, though, what policies about DeSantis do you like in terms of what he's running on for president?
[00:51:03]  Culture war stuff, mostly.
[00:51:04]  But I think COVID policy was good.
[00:51:05]  Hey, plug for the show.
[00:51:07]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:51:08]  Right, but what's the culture war stuff that you like?
[00:51:10]  So, yes, but the reason why I've not been... So last year, I was like, I think DeSantis is probably better for one simple reason.
[00:51:18]  No, what stuff do you like now?
[00:51:20]  What do you like that he's running on?
[00:51:21]  Yeah, culture war stuff, predominantly.
[00:51:23]  But can you expand on that notion?
[00:51:24]  I think... You want me to, like, pull up specific...
[00:51:27]  I mean, I don't know.
[00:51:27]  It's like you said that you like certain things, that you're leaning more towards Trump because of AI images.
[00:51:33]  I would hope that there's a little bit more substance to your disagreement.
[00:51:37]  Well, every time I try and bring it up, you just ask me the same question again.
[00:51:40]  Because you're not answering my question.
[00:51:41]  I'm trying to.
[00:51:43]  Okay, go ahead.
[00:51:44]  So, uh, now where was I before you jumped back in?
[00:51:47]  First, the culture war stuff is obvious, right?
[00:51:50]  Parental rights and education bill, yes, that one's fairly obvious.
[00:51:53]  I don't know about the Disney stuff, that's kind of absurd.
[00:51:56]  What I was going to say is, let's go back in time to why I said I was for Rhonda Sanders in the first place and why where I'm at now is not.
[00:52:04]  The first thing was last year I was having a conversation with the Daily Wire crew and I said Trump is brash, Many people don't like him, and he won't shut up about 2020.
[00:52:12]  He's a sore loser.
[00:52:13]  Ron DeSantis, at the very least, is dry, and can get us something better than, say, Joe Biden.
[00:52:20]  I know, but I'm still not really hearing a specific policy.
[00:52:23]  Right, so, his COVID policy was correct, okay?
[00:52:27]  Wait, but you just said something with the beaches that didn't like the closure.
[00:52:30]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one.
[00:52:30]  You can bring it over.
[00:52:33]  Like, his presidential platform.
[00:52:35]  Like, what are the things- I don't know if he's got one, does he?
[00:52:38]  Okay, so you're- I've not been on board with him.
[00:52:42]  So, we can look at what happened- And you said parental rights, I'm curious what you mean by that.
[00:52:45]  Yeah, like- Because, I'm in favor of parental rights, eh?
[00:52:48]  Right?
[00:52:48]  Like, I want parents to be able to, if their child is transitioning, to be able to work with their doctor, with a plan, and make sure that children are not- Let's talk about one of his policies.
[00:53:09]  If I open this book on YouTube, the stream will get taken down.
[00:53:13]  Did you ever read this book?
[00:53:15]  This book is in middle schools in Florida.
[00:53:17]  Ron DeSantis had it removed.
[00:53:18]  That's one simple policy he did.
[00:53:19]  That's very good.
[00:53:20]  You've never seen this book?
[00:53:21]  I've heard about it.
[00:53:22]  Have you ever looked inside of it?
[00:53:24]  No, but I mean, I don't believe in censorship.
[00:53:26]  If I show you a picture of a blowjob, would you be offended?
[00:53:29]  Um, I mean... Can I show you a picture of a blowjob on camera?
[00:53:32]  I wouldn't be offended.
[00:53:33]  I mean, I think... No, disavow.
[00:53:34]  Honestly, do you know, Tim, that the more children learn about sexual education in the way that's productive and done in schools, the less likely they are to be sexually abused because they know what is good and what is bad?
[00:53:45]  I can't share this image on YouTube.
[00:53:46]  Do you hear me, though, about that?
[00:53:48]  The more children learn about sexual education, the less likely they are to be victims of pedophilia and rape.
[00:53:55]  I think the issue is you're confusing sexual education with kink.
[00:53:59]  Right, so I'm looking at this right now.
[00:54:01]  I can't even hold it up because I can't point it at the camera.
[00:54:05]  And I don't understand why school children should be taught how to perform blowjobs for an autoandrophile.
[00:54:10]  I don't believe they're being taught that.
[00:54:12]  Why was this book banned?
[00:54:14]  I don't really know, again, because this is another case-by-case example.
[00:54:18]  No, no, no.
[00:54:18]  You're asking about what Ron DeSantis did.
[00:54:19]  I am not in favor of censorship.
[00:54:20]  You asked me what Ron DeSantis did that I liked.
[00:54:22]  That he banned genderqueer?
[00:54:24]  That he's removing pornographic and kink books from middle schools is a very, very good one.
[00:54:29]  And I would- Well, for me, my politics are a little broader than that, Tim, I gotta say.
[00:54:34]  So, listen, if your argument to me is that I or anyone else should support your politics because you want to show blowjobs to children, you're going to lose.
[00:54:42]  Well, I don't think that that is a policy done by teachers in this country.
[00:54:47]  I think that this is a- This book was in schools in Florida, which is why- There are a ton of books that are in a ton of schools.
[00:54:52]  I don't believe in censorship.
[00:54:55]  That's not my bag, buddy.
[00:54:56]  So you think children should have Playboy?
[00:54:58]  I don't really think so, no, because that's pornography.
[00:55:01]  What about Hustler?
[00:55:03]  So you think a blowjob- Tim, you're in favor of censorship.
[00:55:06]  Yes, absolutely.
[00:55:07]  You are, you are.
[00:55:08]  Oh, that's good to know.
[00:55:09]  If you watched the show, you'd know this.
[00:55:10]  Oh, okay, you're pro-censorship.
[00:55:12]  We talk about how we're- I am not.
[00:55:14]  One, I want children to be able to have all the information that they need in order to make- Including pornography.
[00:55:19]  No, that's not pornography.
[00:55:20]  If I show you this- Whoa.
[00:55:22]  Whoa.
[00:55:23]  Did the power just go out?
[00:55:26]  Are you kidding me?
[00:55:28]  You tried to show it to her and then it went out.
[00:55:29]  There you go.
[00:55:33]  I was getting good too.
[00:55:34]  What the fuck just happened?
[00:55:36]  Well, we're still recording.
[00:55:37]  Uh-oh.
[00:55:38]  Really?
[00:55:38]  Yeah, because we have reserved batteries.
[00:55:41]  Okay.
[00:55:43]  Wow.
[00:55:44]  Look, you threatened to show the book too many times, Tim.
[00:55:46]  Yeah, I know.
[00:55:47]  Are we really still on air or what happened?
[00:55:50]  So, we backup record everything?
[00:55:56]  I think, I think, I think we're back.
[00:55:58]  We are back?
[00:56:00]  Whoa.
[00:56:02]  Okay.
[00:56:02]  It's pretty stormy out.
[00:56:04]  It broke your soul?
[00:56:04]  It's stormy?
[00:56:05]  Yeah, I mean it's rainy.
[00:56:06]  Okay, I think we're live again.
[00:56:08]  Okay.
[00:56:09]  There we go, we're back!
[00:56:10]  Yes.
[00:56:11]  So the power just fluctuated.
[00:56:13]  That was God striking you down, Tim.
[00:56:16]  Striking me down.
[00:56:16]  You're the one arguing for... You're the one arguing for censorship.
[00:56:20]  Yes.
[00:56:21]  I mean, I don't really mind that stuff.
[00:56:23]  I mean, are you in favor of children seeing violence on television?
[00:56:27]  No.
[00:56:27]  That scares me a little bit more.
[00:56:29]  It depends.
[00:56:29]  It's not so simple to save violence, right?
[00:56:31]  But yes, censorship is a good thing, but when done bad is a bad thing.
[00:56:35]  Yeah.
[00:56:36]  For instance, Ian Crosland, who is a co-host on TimCastIRL, used to be a moderator for Minds.com, and he had to filter out graphic depictions of murder and rape and child abuse.
[00:56:46]  Censorship is absolutely vital in that regard.
[00:56:49]  So if we're talking about a book like, in particular, there was one called There's a Teacher, Who provided a book to her middle schoolers called This Book is Gay.
[00:56:58]  I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
[00:56:59]  I have heard.
[00:56:59]  That's actually a very good book.
[00:57:00]  And it provides instruction to children on how to use adult gay anonymous sex apps.
[00:57:06]  Yeah, I don't think that's appropriate.
[00:57:07]  Now look, by all means, you can be in favor of it.
[00:57:09]  Maybe she had a child in her classroom.
[00:57:14]  Who wanted to go on Grindr and have sex with adults?
[00:57:16]  Is that your argument?

=== Morality and State Intervention (15:41) ===

[00:57:17]  No, I mean, I'm not saying that.
[00:57:18]  First of all, I don't know.
[00:57:19]  Again, this is another... Why would a 10-year-old need Grindr?
[00:57:21]  This is the thing that you do, though, Tim.
[00:57:23]  Oh, that I do.
[00:57:24]  You're picking specific examples that are inflammatory.
[00:57:28]  You asked me for one.
[00:57:30]  Okay, then go ahead.
[00:57:31]  I did!
[00:57:32]  We have the book!
[00:57:33]  I said don't show children I'm not in favor of censorship.
[00:57:35]  - I'm not in favor of censorship.
[00:57:37]  I'm not in favor of censorship. - As an objective observer that's sitting here, you asked for a specific example, he gave it to you, and then you try to say he's broadly in favor of censorship.
[00:57:45]  - Yeah.
[00:57:45]  - It's possibly to make a hypocrisy point later on when he complains about social media censorship or something like that.
[00:57:50]  - No, I just-- - But it's like, he's talking about this specific issue.
[00:57:53]  And I remember I was working on an education series about this kind of thing years before it was popular.
[00:57:58]  Yes, I was ahead of my time.
[00:58:00]  And yeah, these kind of things were popping up all over schools, and I am happy that DeSantis is like doing something about it.
[00:58:06]  We had Asra Nomani on the show.
[00:58:07]  She brought in I think like 70 books.
[00:58:10]  Of all of the weird racist indoctrination and sex stuff that they're bringing in schools.
[00:58:15]  Yeah.
[00:58:15]  And I said, look man, it's really simple for me.
[00:58:18]  If someone comes to me and says that they think this book, which Amazon says is 18 up only, should be given to children, I'll say, I will vote against you.
[00:58:27]  So, should the Bible be banned from schools because it depicts sexual acts?
[00:58:30]  It is banned from schools, public schools.
[00:58:31]  The Bible probably is not appropriate for children for a lot of reasons.
[00:58:35]  And I am not a Christian, so I don't particularly care about whether or not they're going to give a book to children that has something like Deuteronomy 2320 in it.
[00:58:43]  I don't think kids should be reading that kind of stuff.
[00:58:46]  However, I'm in favor of the parents deciding when it is appropriate for their kids, which comes with very difficult moral questions in that my morality is different from the morality of each individual parent.
[00:58:55]  So that's why I'm kind of like, the government probably shouldn't be the one doing it.
[00:58:59]  Have you had an expert on sexual education on your program to talk about this kind of stuff?
[00:59:04]  Yes.
[00:59:06]  What did they say?
[00:59:08]  And are you in favor of abstinence only?
[00:59:10]  No.
[00:59:10]  It's been a very, very long time.
[00:59:12]  You're not in favor of absence-only education?
[00:59:13]  I think absence-only is too much.
[00:59:15]  So you're kind of hinging on this book that has pornographic material in it.
[00:59:20]  There's a difference between sex and kink, right?
[00:59:23]  Okay, sure.
[00:59:24]  So many individuals on the left have made arguments in favor of kink for kids, which is weird to me, and I think it's inappropriate.
[00:59:31]  I think kids should learn about sex.
[00:59:33]  I think the parents should decide when it's appropriate.
[00:59:35]  This is why typically at schools they would give out notice to the parents like, we're intending on doing sex ed, here's the subjects we're going to cover.
[00:59:41]  Nothing's changed in that way.
[00:59:42]  The issue with Florida was that they had a policy where they would not instruct parents and actually were told not to talk to the parents if the kids were suffering identity issues.
[00:59:52]  Now that's, the state should not intervene and take away the rights of the parents in that way.
[00:59:57]  Can you say that again?
[00:59:58]  That the state, what about gender identity issues?
[01:00:01]  So in Florida, what prompts a bill like this, and it also happened with stuff in like Nashville, was that the schools, and I think they do this in like Washington and Colorado, the schools were actually telling teachers not to talk to the parents if the children were having some kind of identity issue.
[01:00:16]  And so this led to suicides.
[01:00:18]  No, no.
[01:00:19]  What leads to suicides is that children are being told that they cannot operate and be who they are as the gender that is who they are in their heart.
[01:00:29]  That's what's leading to suicides.
[01:00:30]  I'm talking about one specific... Well, I think it's like... Again, you're talking about one specific example.
[01:00:34]  I'm talking about broader, broader... You can't ask me for like... I talk about politics, Tim.
[01:00:38]  I don't talk about anecdotes.
[01:00:39]  We're talking about policy that they would not disclose gender-wise to the parents.
[01:00:42]  You're talking about school district policy.
[01:00:45]  I'm talking... I cover national politics.
[01:00:47]  You asked me to!
[01:00:48]  Yeah, all right.
[01:00:49]  You can't ask me a question that when I explain where the policy came from, be like, no, that makes no sense.
[01:00:53]  No, because you go into individual anecdotes.
[01:00:56]  I'm telling you why the policy was written.
[01:00:58]  Okay, go ahead, Tim.
[01:01:00]  That's why the policy was written.
[01:01:01]  Because there were children who were having identity issues, and the schools were instructed, the teachers were told not to tell the parents.
[01:01:08]  This led to, I think it was a suicide attempt.
[01:01:11]  The parents got angry.
[01:01:11]  Who had a suicide attempt?
[01:01:12]  A little girl tried to kill herself.
[01:01:14]  Okay, again, this is one case, go ahead.
[01:01:16]  And there was also another, right, I'm not talking about, look at this anecdote, let's set policy, I'm saying Florida set a law because, okay?
[01:01:23]  I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm saying a thing led to a thing, right?
[01:01:27]  My position is that parents should be fully informed about what's going on with their children and teachers should not withhold that information from them.
[01:01:34]  It is not up to the state to decide what is best for the kid.
[01:01:37]  But the state is deciding what is best for the kid in these instances.
[01:01:41]  They're essentially saying that children, take Florida for example, you're talking about Florida, let's talk about it.
[01:01:48]  They're saying that children cannot, under the supervision of their doctor and with their parental consent, none of this happens by the way without parental consent, it's illegal, they cannot Work with their doctor on a health care plan for them to transition into the talking about that.
[01:02:03]  I mean you're talking about medical intervention I'm talking right, but you have spoken about knowledge Yeah, I think like if a doctor prescribed a lobotomy to a kid the government should stop it's not a lobotomy I'm saying that there are certain things in the medical world that we've prohibited Right, but this is not what should- And it's one of them.
[01:02:17]  But the American Journal- You disagree, you think it shouldn't be, I'm not arguing that you are.
[01:02:20]  No, every single expert that is reputable on this front disagrees.
[01:02:23]  The American Journal of Pediatrics did a study about transitioning children.
[01:02:27]  They studied them over five years.
[01:02:29]  Ninety-four percent of the children continued to identify as the gender that they were choosing to identify with at the beginning.
[01:02:36]  When placed on- For five whole years?
[01:02:37]  Wow.
[01:02:38]  Yes.
[01:02:38]  When placed on Lupron.
[01:02:39]  No, then the 6% that were remaining, 3.5% identified as cisgender, 2.5% went back, yes, but they were heavily weighted under the age of 10 years old where they never had any medical intervention.
[01:02:54]  This is how actually trans care actually goes, Tim.
[01:02:57]  8 to 13 years old, you're put on puberty blockers.
[01:02:59]  Those are entirely reversible.
[01:03:01]  Then after that- I'm sorry.
[01:03:02]  That is 100% true.
[01:03:03]  It's just not true.
[01:03:04]  That's 100% true.
[01:03:04]  They're not entirely reversible.
[01:03:06]  To a certain degree, they can be.
[01:03:07]  Then why are they used in instances where someone has puberty that- They're off-label use.
[01:03:11]  Precocious puberty.
[01:03:12]  Yeah, that's precocious puberty.
[01:03:13]  Right, exactly.
[01:03:13]  And there's a carve-out for that in the Florida bill, by the way.
[01:03:16]  So cis kids can have it, but trans kids can't.
[01:03:18]  Because that's the primary label.
[01:03:19]  That's the primary use of the drug.
[01:03:21]  Okay, but that's not what doctors say.
[01:03:23]  No, no, no.
[01:03:24]  Then 16 years old, that's when hormones happen.
[01:03:27]  Very, very, very rarely are there any surgeries under the age of 18.
[01:03:31]  I don't hear you talking about rhinoplasty under the age of 18.
[01:03:34]  We have!
[01:03:34]  Maybe you haven't heard it because you don't watch the show.
[01:03:37]  I've also said child beauty pageants are wrong and they're disgusting.
[01:03:40]  I've also said Hooters are inappropriate for kids.
[01:03:42]  And I said we shouldn't be giving minors any kind of cosmetic surgery.
[01:03:45]  I don't even like tattoos or piercings.
[01:03:47]  It's quite puritanical of you, Tim.
[01:03:49]  I'm surprised.
[01:03:50]  Yes, I don't think children should be altering their bodies.
[01:03:57]  But you just said parental rights, so if under 18, parents have to give consent for piercings and tattoos and for rhinoplasty.
[01:04:04]  Do you think a mom should have the right to remove the salivary glands of her child?
[01:04:07]  No, no, no.
[01:04:08]  Are you for parental rights or not?
[01:04:10]  See, this is a... Every right has limits.
[01:04:12]  What is actually interesting, because what you're asking, we've actually talked in a great depth about on Timcast IRL, that Are you for parental rights or not?
[01:04:20]  I just asked.
[01:04:20]  That question right there leads in two different directions, which again, we've addressed.
[01:04:24]  If you watched the show, you'd have heard the statement we've made about it.
[01:04:26]  Well, I heard you five minutes ago say you were of parental rights, and now you're saying you're not.
[01:04:30]  Where do parents' rights begin and where do they end is strictly a moral question based on the moral frameworks of an individual.
[01:04:35]  If there is someone who goes to a doctor in, say, Saudi Arabia, and the doctor prescribes female circumcision, they're going to argue it's the parents' rights.
[01:04:43]  We would argue against that.
[01:04:43]  Another hypothetical.
[01:04:44]  I'm talking about reality.
[01:04:45]  But these things literally do happen in other countries.
[01:04:47]  But it wouldn't be a bad scenario.
[01:04:48]  I'm talking about this country, and I'm talking about parental rights.
[01:04:50]  Right, and so I'm making a point.
[01:04:53]  The point is, the idea that parents have a right is limited to what our moral limits are.
[01:04:58]  Meaning, if you morally are okay with a child sex change, then you're going to argue in favor of parents' rights.
[01:05:04]  If I say you shouldn't be able to mandate vaccinations, you'd probably argue against the parents' right, right?
[01:05:10]  Should a school be allowed to mandate vaccines for children?
[01:05:12]  Yes.
[01:05:13]  But what about the parents' rights?
[01:05:14]  Are you for parents' rights?
[01:05:16]  Well, I'm for public health.
[01:05:17]  But you're not for parents' rights.
[01:05:18]  You see, that question leads nowhere.
[01:05:20]  No, I mean, look, Tim, I've never made parental rights a plank of my own politics.
[01:05:26]  I'm saying this within the context of what you just said five minutes ago.
[01:05:29]  And I'm explaining.
[01:05:30]  Parental rights extends to my morality.
[01:05:32]  So, right, your morality says that you think that trans children and parents, even if they agree with their child and the doctor is supervising this kind of transition, You're essentially saying that you don't believe that they should have the power and ability and that the state should intervene.
[01:05:47]  That sounds like big government to me.
[01:05:48]  Yeah, I don't know if you know who I am.
[01:05:52]  Well, OK, then you know that the state should intervene because you don't believe that parents should and their children.
[01:05:57]  They're in agreement.
[01:05:58]  So, at first, my position was, you know, early on, you know, if the doctors are prescribing it and it's the best thing they can do, I think we're looking at, in the past four years, about 50,000 or so cases of cross-sex hormones for kids, you know, so be it.
[01:06:11]  Then we started seeing, like, the Tavistock scandal.
[01:06:14]  We saw Finland, Denmark, Sweden start pulling this.
[01:06:17]  The research coming out showed that it was not particularly effective.
[01:06:20]  And then we also had multiple studies showing that desistance rates for those who did not take any, who did not receive intervention was actually upwards of 95%.
[01:06:29]  And then my position became, it probably is the appropriate thing for the legislature to say, we're not going to allow this anymore.
[01:06:34]  Okay.
[01:06:35]  I just listed the American Journal of Pediatrics.
[01:06:37]  That's incredibly reputable.
[01:06:39]  Incredibly reputable.
[01:06:40]  94% of children continued care after age of... Take a Netherland study.
[01:06:44]  This is Lancet.
[01:06:46]  98% continued hormone therapy on follow-up.
[01:06:49]  After what?
[01:06:50]  So you... No, but the other one's a five-year study.
[01:06:52]  This is just a secondary one.
[01:06:54]  Well, no, so this is the issue, right?
[01:06:56]  Those studies were based upon whether a child was placed on puberty blockers or not.
[01:07:00]  When a child is placed on puberty blockers, they tend not to desist.
[01:07:02]  When a child is left alone, they tend to desist.
[01:07:05]  So the issue is then, if according to, you know, 10 prospective follow-up studies from childhood adolescents found desistance ranging from 61 to 90 percent, then the safety of the children would lean towards non-intervention.
[01:07:18]  Look, go ahead.
[01:07:21]  Again, we should probably agree to look at these kinds of studies before we're going to pull them up for a debate, because what I'm pulling up and what I'm referencing is inherently reputable, and you can find any information that you want on the internet.
[01:07:34]  I am with a majority of doctors on this front.
[01:07:37]  I mean, that's a broad statement.
[01:07:39]  I don't know about that.
[01:07:40]  No, no, no.
[01:07:40]  That is actually a fact.
[01:07:41]  That is 100% a fact.
[01:07:42]  So I've seen this movie before.
[01:07:44]  So what's happening is you're referencing detransition under a system where they wouldn't be put on puberty blockers necessarily, and then they would go through the cross-sex hormone.
[01:07:52]  So everybody who would have desisted at the point of puberty, which is what you're referencing, is already excluded from her sample.
[01:08:00]  Like, and I don't even think you would disagree with that, that once they're actually past the point of puberty, and they still think they're in the opposite body or whatever, and they go through the process, there's a very low detransition rate.
[01:08:11]  But you're specifically talking about desistance, and I remember this because this happened when you argue with the serfs.
[01:08:16]  This is what it boils down to.
[01:08:17]  I'm not a moralist.
[01:08:18]  I don't have, like, the arrogance to believe that my personal preferences for how my life would be lived I mean, come on.
[01:08:25]  and other people.
[01:08:26]  I'm trying to make a argument for a case for I'm trying to make a case for a broad set of policies that are going to make sure people are as happy as they can possibly be and can live their life to the fullest.
[01:08:39]  So if you want to impose your morality on people, it sounds like fundamentalism.
[01:08:43]  For me, I'm in favor of a real argument.
[01:08:45]  But if most know that, no, but I am having a real argument.
[01:08:48]  You just said your morality- I said, here's a study.
[01:08:50]  Oh, man.
[01:08:50]  Here's a study that shows resistance rates up to 95%.
[01:08:52]  Hold on.
[01:08:53]  Resistance rates are shown up to 95% with non-intervention.
[01:08:56]  So then we would lean towards non-intervention.
[01:08:59]  And you said you're a fundamentalist.
[01:09:00]  You didn't make an argument.
[01:09:01]  Earlier, you talked about how your morality is what you want to dictate in terms of this policy.
[01:09:06]  You see, this is what I was talking about with Sam.
[01:09:09]  Okay.
[01:09:09]  Right?
[01:09:10]  The inability to grasp philosophical concepts.
[01:09:13]  When I explain to you that you are opposed to parental rights because you're in favor of vaccine mandates, I don't think you can understand the duality of the statement you're making.
[01:09:25]  Are you in favor of parental rights can go in one of two moral directions.
[01:09:28]  You do have a moral stance.
[01:09:31]  I wasn't talking about parental rights.
[01:09:32]  I was using that as a way to talk about your statement on parental rights.
[01:09:36]  My point is, if you have a moral position on public health and you want to impose that, then you too would be a fundamentalist and you've made a nonsensical statement.
[01:09:44]  I... If you want to make an argument about why me using this data is incorrect, I'm all ears.
[01:09:49]  If you want to tell me I'm a fundamentalist... I haven't seen the data, so I can't... Well, then don't make an argument about it if you don't know the data.
[01:09:53]  No, I do know the data.
[01:09:54]  I used the American Journal of Pediatrics.
[01:09:55]  You just said you didn't.
[01:09:56]  I don't know the data that you just pulled up.
[01:09:57]  You did not look up desistance rates.
[01:09:59]  You did not look up anything other than what fits your narrative.
[01:10:02]  Tim, what you just said is that you want your morality to dictate policy.
[01:10:05]  No, I didn't.
[01:10:06]  I want people to have freedom to do what they want.
[01:10:08]  I certainly did not.
[01:10:09]  That's just not true.
[01:10:11]  I said that everyone's view on a question like parental rights is dictated by their morality.
[01:10:17]  You do have one as well.
[01:10:18]  People have a moral framework.
[01:10:20]  You've told me that you're in favor of public health.
[01:10:23]  That is a moral stance.
[01:10:24]  So are you a fundamentalist?
[01:10:27]  No, I talk about politics.
[01:10:28]  I don't talk about things that are so abstract.
[01:10:31]  You're in favor of vaccine mandates or not?
[01:10:33]  Of course.
[01:10:34]  That's a moral position.
[01:10:36]  Not a scientific one.
[01:10:37]  No, it is a public health position.
[01:10:40]  Sure, your morality dictates that the government can impose a medication on people against their will.
[01:10:45]  Because I'm trying to create a society... That's a moral question.
[01:10:47]  No, because I'm trying to... That's moral.
[01:10:49]  Sure, I think I am more moral.
[01:10:51]  But you just said you weren't.
[01:10:52]  You said you were not a moralist.
[01:10:53]  No, I'm dealing in politics, and politics can create outcomes that are moral or immoral, and I'm dealing in the ones that I think will create the most... So you're moralist?
[01:11:06]  No.
[01:11:07]  Moralism in the way that I was referencing it is one that falls back on notions of fundamentalism and imposing morality that is individual to you on the rest of society.
[01:11:18]  I'm not talking about imposing morality.
[01:11:20]  I am talking about creating a society, creating a society that gives people the freedom that they... Moralism.
[01:11:26]  That's politics, right?
[01:11:27]  You want to create a society that works towards a goal of your personal perspective.
[01:11:35]  What you are talking about is imposing your narrow set of ideas about how society should be.
[01:11:42]  Based on the scientific research I pulled up.
[01:11:44]  No, no.
[01:11:45]  No, I literally pulled a study up.
[01:11:46]  No, you want to restrict people's ability to do what they want to do with their bodies.
[01:11:50]  That's what you want to do.
[01:11:51]  Do you think that people should cut their hands off?
[01:11:53]  I don't believe that.
[01:11:54]  I don't deal in abstract, ridiculous hypotheticals because I deal in reality.
[01:11:58]  I cover politics.
[01:11:59]  So you're in favor of female genital circumcision?
[01:12:01]  That doesn't happen in the United States.
[01:12:03]  So what?
[01:12:03]  No, you're wrong.
[01:12:03]  It does happen.
[01:12:04]  There are very small amounts.
[01:12:05]  So you're in favor of it?
[01:12:09]  Do you want to restrict what people do with their own children?
[01:12:11]  You're against parental rights?
[01:12:12]  That's not the same thing.
[01:12:13]  Is a doctor is a doctor?
[01:12:15]  You want to talk about Dearborn, Michigan?
[01:12:18]  I've actually gone there and done the research.
[01:12:19]  I've actually done the boots on the ground journalism in this story.
[01:12:21]  Okay.
[01:12:22]  Yes.
[01:12:22]  Oh, wow.
[01:12:23]  Yeah, right.
[01:12:23]  Because female circumcision is a bad thing.
[01:12:26]  We do not want these things to be happening.
[01:12:28]  And even the parents were going to doctors to get it prescribed.
[01:12:30]  There are limits.
[01:12:31]  There's the famous story of the Kennedy.
[01:12:33]  They got the, what is it, the Kennedy got lobotomized because the doctors prescribed it.
[01:12:36]  Just because there's current scientific research that leans one direction doesn't mean we move absolutely in one direction.
[01:12:43]  What we have here is a very prominent set of studies, which we've referenced on the show numerous times, showing desistance rates for minors who do not receive intervention in terms of affirmation or gender sex change is upwards of 95% in which case science dictates we do not intervene.

=== Roe v. Wade's Viability Question (10:33) ===

[01:12:59]  If you want to take the 5% chance that we then intervene in these children's lives and that can result in even one kid being harmed that sounds like an immoral action.
[01:13:07]  Now these are extremely specific hypotheticals that you are maximizing in this current instance and I am interested in creating a society that is not not that is yes moral but it's based on outcomes not just that's what I just pulled up I mean, I can read to you again.
[01:13:23]  - Right, but pull up the American Pediatrics study. - But we're talking about, can I ask a hypothetical while you pull that up? - If it is true that prescribing puberty blockers prevents people from hitting that point of puberty where they would decide, and largely they would decide to desist, right?
[01:13:40]  When they hit the point of puberty, Would you be in favor of removing that from the gender protocol?
[01:13:44]  Because this only is talking about desistance at the point of puberty.
[01:13:48]  So, like, what he's concerned about is that if you stop people from going through puberty, you stop the changes in their bodies and all that, and then they can't, like, rationally make that choice because they haven't hit that point in their development.
[01:13:58]  I don't have the kind of, I guess, arrogance, I would say.
[01:14:03]  I mean, I asked you a hypothetical, like, hypothetically.
[01:14:06]  Right, but again, this is exactly what reactionary conservatives do.
[01:14:10]  You know, it's a red flag.
[01:14:11]  If you deal with hypotheticals, because when you actually deal with the practical reality and the outcomes that you're dealing with and that you're prescribing onto society, It creates an inherently unjust society.
[01:14:23]  As the right-wing conservative Destiny said recently when he was debating the left-wing pro-lifers, it is a definite red flag when somebody is unwilling completely to engage with the hypothetical.
[01:14:34]  If you want to say why the hypothetical doesn't apply, that is totally fine, but for you to just say, oh, it's a hypothetical, I can't talk about it, as if you don't know what a thought experiment is, it's kind of odd.
[01:14:44]  Look, I've asked you, we have here, I literally just pulled up detransition Wikipedia, we pulled up this study that shows that without intervention, desistance rates are from 61 to 98%.
[01:14:53]  And here I have general acceptance of standards of care.
[01:14:56]  The overwhelming weight of medical authority supports treatment of transgender patients with GNRH agonists and cross-sex hormones in appropriate circumstances.
[01:15:05]  Organizations who have formally recognized this include American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, American Academy of Family Physicians, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American College of Physicians, American Medical Association, American Pediatric Association, dozens and dozens of the most- Remember when doctors said smoking was good for you?
[01:15:24]  You're not citing science, you're citing government approval.
[01:15:27]  No, I'm not.
[01:15:28]  I am citing... And that's fine.
[01:15:30]  What does the government have to do with it?
[01:15:32]  These are medical organizations.
[01:15:33]  Okay, sure, sure.
[01:15:34]  Fair point.
[01:15:34]  You're citing medical organizations, despite the fact that there have been numerous instances throughout history, in fact, basically all of them, where we've been like, hey, we were wrong about that.
[01:15:42]  Like, maybe we shouldn't drink mercury if you get syphilis.
[01:15:45]  But what I'm referring to specifically is, if there is no intervention of a trans child, desistance rates are from 61% to 98%, showing the majority of kids are better off not receiving period blockers.
[01:15:55]  No, look, I mean, you're on detransition Wikipedia, I just listed a list of dozens of- Again, he mentioned desistance, not detransition, this is like very important that we nail down what we're talking about.
[01:16:05]  Yeah, what I'm saying is, if you have a trans child, Or a child who is suffering from gendered identity disorder or dysphoria, and you do nothing.
[01:16:15]  There is a 61 to 98% chance they age out of it and grow up and are happy and fine.
[01:16:21]  That's made up.
[01:16:22]  It's literally right there!
[01:16:24]  What are you talking about?
[01:16:25]  On Wikipedia.
[01:16:25]  At the point of puberty.
[01:16:26]  No, I pulled up the NIH and said you can pull up anything.
[01:16:29]  Yeah, so here you go, NIH.gov.
[01:16:31]  Are you happy?
[01:16:33]  Tim, deal with what I just said about the level of medical organizations.
[01:16:38]  You're saying that they're all wrong and that you have some sort of special knowledge that you can supersede their expertise.
[01:16:45]  No he's not, you're cherry picking American organizations.
[01:16:49]  I just, first of all, I just cited one from the Netherlands, but American Academy of Pediatrics.
[01:16:53]  Appeal to authority.
[01:16:56]  Keep doing it.
[01:16:58]  But I'm not a medical authority and neither are you.
[01:17:00]  Then all I can do is point to a study and say, wow, if this study is true, I'm opposed to this.
[01:17:05]  Right.
[01:17:05]  But there's also all these European organizations that are getting rid of this specific practice that he's focusing on, which is the puberty blockers.
[01:17:11]  And like, for some reason, they're not on your list.
[01:17:13]  No, we are.
[01:17:14]  We are properly assessing when intervention is appropriate here.
[01:17:18]  I mean, it's pretty obvious.
[01:17:19]  But why would they suspend in these better health care systems in Europe?
[01:17:22]  Why would they suspend this specific practice that we're arguing about?
[01:17:25]  I mean, you listed Sweden and Finland.
[01:17:26]  They've just elected far-right governments.
[01:17:30]  But anyway, again, this is what I'm interested in talking about in terms of politics.
[01:17:34]  I want to create a more equitable society for people.
[01:17:36]  We should have socialized health care.
[01:17:37]  Medicare for all.
[01:17:38]  You should talk about that more on your program.
[01:17:39]  You say you're in favor of it.
[01:17:40]  I haven't really seen... I haven't seen much.
[01:17:43]  When you guys cherry-pick stuff to talk about music or whatever... No, no, we should talk about ending child poverty.
[01:17:48]  It's funny.
[01:17:48]  You should talk about ending child poverty.
[01:17:49]  But you could have talked about my position on universal health care any one of these times.
[01:17:52]  You never do.
[01:17:53]  Why?
[01:17:53]  It's not going to get traffic for you.
[01:17:55]  Well, I mean, you don't clip anything about universal health care.
[01:17:58]  You should focus more on it, and then we would focus on it.
[01:18:05]  What we try to do in real time is correct right-wing lies, whether it's you or Dave Rubin or Steven Crowder.
[01:18:12]  We do talk about abortion a lot.
[01:18:14]  Yeah, what's my abortion position?
[01:18:16]  I'm not sure.
[01:18:17]  Why?
[01:18:18]  You've not watched any of the 8,000 segments?
[01:18:19]  I mean, I do know that you called that 10-year-old case a hoax, a political hoax.
[01:18:24]  The political maneuvers around it to change the law was a hoax.
[01:18:27]  Yeah.
[01:18:27]  Sure.
[01:18:28]  So, well, how do you not know my position on abortion?
[01:18:31]  I mean, you watch the show, you watch at any point, you can see the arguments we have.
[01:18:34]  I don't have a ton of time to watch all your show.
[01:18:36]  You specifically covered his episode with the Circe, where they talked about it in depth, so it's weird that you don't know.
[01:18:40]  Well, reiterate your abortion position for me and I'll respond to it.
[01:18:43]  Okay, in what way?
[01:18:44]  I think Roe v. Wade was the right decision.
[01:18:46]  Okay.
[01:18:47]  I think that life should be protected under the Constitution at the federal level, and that it probably does make sense for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade, but that means Congress needs to codify it.
[01:18:59]  Okay, but that's not going to happen and that's because we don't have a- Well, that's a different question.
[01:19:03]  Because we need filibuster reform.
[01:19:04]  So I'm not really interested in process, I'm interested in outcomes as we get back to, again, the differences that we clearly have here.
[01:19:12]  I don't really care who imposes the right to abortion in this country, I just care that we have a right to abortion in this country and we don't- Well, right, yeah, I think at first when Roe v. Wade was overturned, I thought that it was probably good it would go to legislation.
[01:19:26]  Because the Supreme Court arbitrarily setting law is probably dangerous.
[01:19:32]  But however, since then, I've looked at it and said, it's a 14th Amendment question, the right to life.
[01:19:38]  And, you know, looking back on that now and understanding Roe v. Wade actually was a pretty good decision.
[01:19:44]  I think now at this point, you'd need some kind of codification.
[01:19:47]  I don't know how the Supreme Court's going to go back on it, but it's a political conversation, not a personal perspective on abortion.
[01:19:53]  So my view is is pre viability.
[01:19:55]  It's individual discretion.
[01:19:57]  Post viability.
[01:19:57]  It's probably going to require some kind of Depending on the circumstances.
[01:20:02]  Where do you draw the line of viability?
[01:20:03]  Can the baby survive on its own?
[01:20:05]  Okay, well 90% of abortions happen in the first trimester, which is the first 12 weeks. 99% 99% happen in the first 20 weeks.
[01:20:13]  The rest that happen, the 1% that you're talking about, which is over-represented constantly for fear-mongering purposes, is the 1% that happen when the life of the mother is in danger or there's an issue with the fetus.
[01:20:25]  So there's no need to...
[01:20:27]  parse and draw arbitrary lines because what that does is it essentially, especially with rape and incest exemptions, which you speak about, it makes it seem like- I'm not in favor of incest exemptions.
[01:20:39]  Okay.
[01:20:39]  The one that we spoke about earlier, okay?
[01:20:42]  I'm not even speaking about your specific opinion about this.
[01:20:45]  I'm talking generally about the notions of abortion.
[01:20:47]  You can't have rape and incest exemptions because it takes so long to prove those cases that it would completely nullify the need for an abortion because as the pregnancy is going along, you would be unable to perform the abortion in the time that it takes to prove that kind of stuff. you would be unable to perform the abortion in the So when that stuff is put into legislation, what it does is it waters down and makes the public seem like, oh, we're not so barbaric.
[01:21:17]  That's why we should not be intervening in what doctors and patients are doing.
[01:21:22]  I want people to be empowered over their own healthcare.
[01:21:26]  Same thing with trans kids.
[01:21:27]  So you disagree with Roe v. Wade?
[01:21:28]  Same thing with abortion.
[01:21:29]  Sorry?
[01:21:29]  Do you disagree with Roe v. Wade in that regard?
[01:21:31]  Well, no.
[01:21:32]  I want there to be an abortion.
[01:21:34]  Would you prefer Roe v. Wade stood?
[01:21:36]  Of course.
[01:21:37]  So then you would be against abortion after a certain amount of time?
[01:21:42]  I mean, Roe v. Wade essentially created the viability standard, right?
[01:21:47]  So then you have a 14th Amendment question, whereas you would need some kind of government intervention post-viability.
[01:21:55]  I believe that doctors should be able to make these determinations and we should have a right to an abortion broadly and doctors can make a decision.
[01:22:03]  Real quick, I think you're in favor of the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
[01:22:06]  No, I'm not because I would never want to overturn something to go backwards and then bring it up to the legislature where we have crazies and Republican nutjobs in the Senate and there's a filibuster that doesn't provide us with the ability to codify it.
[01:22:19]  Because of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, you now have states like Colorado removing restrictions.
[01:22:23]  No, no, no.
[01:22:24]  This is inaccurate.
[01:22:25]  So Roe vs. Wade protected at a constitutional level up to the second trimester for elective abortions, and then afterwards it was up to the states.
[01:22:34]  So, like, Colorado could have extended this prior to.
[01:22:38]  In fact, Andrew Cuomo did this before.
[01:22:40]  So, like, just to clarify that.
[01:22:42]  Okay, never mind.
[01:22:43]  I stand corrected.
[01:22:43]  I thought that it was because I remember reading, what was the guy's name?
[01:22:47]  He wrote about 14 of them and kicks in upon viability.
[01:22:50]  And then you have a constitutional right to life and all of these things.
[01:22:53]  And there's questions around that.
[01:22:55]  Colorado may have passed that law in response to Roe versus Wade, but they weren't prohibited from doing so before.
[01:23:00]  It's because Roe versus Wade says at this point, the states have no issue.
[01:23:05]  It's a constitutional issue.
[01:23:06]  And then third trimester, which is why Roe vs. Wade constitutionally is a ridiculous decision, they're like, it's a state's rights issue.
[01:23:12]  Because, you know, the Constitution obviously delegates the trimesters in the 57th Amendment somewhere.
[01:23:17]  And again, Tim, like, the reality is I don't like, you know, you've been perfectly nice to me here.

=== False Flag Claims and Echo Chambers (15:55) ===

[01:23:23]  I don't really care about you personally.
[01:23:24]  I care what when you say things that are harmful and wrong, like the hoax statement about... That wasn't wrong.
[01:23:31]  That was an opinion.
[01:23:33]  It was wrong.
[01:23:34]  It was completely factually inaccurate.
[01:23:36]  It's not factually inaccurate.
[01:23:37]  You called it a hoax because you know that your audience is going to feed into it, and then you parse it later so you have plausible deniability about it.
[01:23:44]  But specifically what I said was, and we talked about it in depth, I think the issue is you don't watch the show.
[01:23:49]  To be fair, I don't watch Majority Report.
[01:23:51]  Uh, but if, if, like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna come out here and be like, you said this one time, this one thing.
[01:23:55]  I've not watched the show, so I don't know exactly what you're talking about.
[01:23:57]  But I said, yeah, the idea that you would take a tragic circumstance like this and then create a political story, put out to the super PACs to try and change laws, that's a hoax.
[01:24:08]  Yeah, well, okay.
[01:24:10]  How about the fact that you called the shooter, the neo-Nazi Texas shooter who watched your program, you called that a false flag?
[01:24:18]  Because you don't even know anything about that story.
[01:24:20]  I do.
[01:24:20]  It was four clips of the episode and you can see in the images he wasn't even subscribed to the channel.
[01:24:24]  Yeah, but he watched your show.
[01:24:25]  No, he didn't.
[01:24:26]  He watched one guy.
[01:24:27]  Yeah, have you ever went to those time codes?
[01:24:30]  He was highlighting specific, and I won't name the guests, from the guests.
[01:24:33]  But he did watch your show.
[01:24:34]  So you're saying he watched an episode?
[01:24:36]  Sure, but do you understand why?
[01:24:38]  And he posted about it.
[01:24:39]  Who was that one guy who watched the majority report and then commented on what Sam did?
[01:24:43]  Why do you think that that, but he, no, this was a neo-Nazi.
[01:24:46]  Why do you think your content appeals to neo-Nazis?
[01:24:49]  Are you kidding me right now?
[01:24:51]  No, I'm just wondering why you think that.
[01:24:53]  Okay, I'm gonna do something I don't normally do, but that was an egregious over-the-line statement where I don't know if you are intentionally trying to just generate clips that are nonsensical or you're just really that stupid.
[01:25:05]  Oh man.
[01:25:07]  The idea that because a Nazi watched your show, your show appeals to Nazis, is like... Look, if you want to have a real conversation, we have a real conversation.
[01:25:17]  If you want to come up here and do exactly what the majority report does, and exactly why Sam isn't welcome on my and many other shows, feel free to do it, and I'm willing to have you on here.
[01:25:27]  Did you know that, you know that, like, I don't know about you specifically, but this is exactly why people don't like your show, okay?
[01:25:34]  I think people like our show.
[01:25:35]  Yeah, maybe ask why some of these higher profile personalities and networks won't have Sam on anymore.
[01:25:40]  Because they're afraid of him.
[01:25:41]  Oh, they're afraid of him.
[01:25:42]  How about it's because you just claimed that my show appeals to Nazis?
[01:25:46]  Which it clearly doesn't.
[01:25:48]  Because this show is predominantly like moderate libertarian-leaning types.
[01:25:51]  But you don't even watch it.
[01:25:53]  You say that because you're trying to draw a line and make the really far-right people that watch your show feel like their positions are a little bit more close to the mainstream than they actually are.
[01:26:04]  Okay, let's say for a moment.
[01:26:07]  So you called it a false flag, and then when you were proven wrong the next day, you said you thought it was funny.
[01:26:14]  Called what a false flag?
[01:26:15]  You called the claims that the neo-Nazi shooter watched your show a false flag.
[01:26:23]  I don't know if I said that.
[01:26:24]  That sounds awfully specific.
[01:26:27]  I don't have the exact quote in front of me, Tim.
[01:26:29]  So you don't know what I said?
[01:26:30]  Where did you hear that?
[01:26:31]  Yes, I do.
[01:26:32]  I listened to you.
[01:26:32]  Did you say something like, it sounds like, I said, it sounds like a psy-op to have this profile appear one day after the shooting where it's got like a bunch of screenshots on it or something?
[01:26:41]  Uh, sure.
[01:26:44]  It really does sound to me like someone told you to say things and you don't know what you're referencing.
[01:26:49]  I'm not shocked that that is the only way that you're gonna try to react to this.
[01:26:53]  To react to what?
[01:26:54]  Like, okay, no, this is fairly obvious.
[01:26:56]  So I'm willing to bet Sam was like, hey, ask him about this and say these exact things.
[01:26:59]  No, I came up with, I mean... Come up with original thoughts, come on.
[01:27:01]  It is my original thought.
[01:27:03]  No, it isn't.
[01:27:04]  Some guy posts a screenshot of one episode of a show he's not subscribed to, and you think that's an attack vector for something political, but it's a personal snipe that has no bearing on any of the arguments we've made the entire show.
[01:27:15]  I disagree.
[01:27:16]  You disagree with what?
[01:27:17]  With what?
[01:27:18]  Elaborate.
[01:27:18]  I disagree that it has no bearing on what you've said throughout your entire show.
[01:27:23]  Like what?
[01:27:23]  What did I say?
[01:27:23]  Come on, come on, come on!
[01:27:27]  Let's hear it.
[01:27:28]  I believe that your program appeals to a right-wing audience, and there's a reason that the neo-Nazi shooter watched your program.
[01:27:36]  And how do you know he watched the program?
[01:27:37]  Because he posted about it.
[01:27:38]  What did he post?
[01:27:40]  Tim.
[01:27:40]  What did he post?
[01:27:42]  He posted, uh, parts of an interview that you did.
[01:27:45]  No, he didn't.
[01:27:45]  You're wrong.
[01:27:46]  He had four screenshots on his phone from the same episode.
[01:27:48]  You don't even know what you're talking about, and all you can do is laugh and say... No, it's because you get specific to obscure the fact.
[01:27:54]  Some guy posted one thing, one time, and that's the only argument you have.
[01:27:58]  Did you go to the time codes that were in that episode?
[01:28:00]  Because I did.
[01:28:01]  I ran this down.
[01:28:02]  And one of them was a clip of Elijah Schaefer.
[01:28:04]  And like, weirdly for this, like, neo-Nazi Hispanic shooter, he, like, it's Elijah saying that we shouldn't be emphasizing race specifically.
[01:28:12]  He had a swastika tattoo.
[01:28:13]  No, no, he's a neo-Nazi Hispanic shooter.
[01:28:15]  Right.
[01:28:15]  But Tim called it a false flag and then corrected himself the next day and then said he thought it was funny after a mass shooting.
[01:28:22]  I think that, I mean, some people are telling you to say this and you don't actually know what you're talking about.
[01:28:26]  I think that it's not shocking that you think that based on my joke.
[01:28:29]  Okay, you're not saying anything anymore.
[01:28:30]  But, like, I screengrab when I, because I do YouTube clips, so I will screengrab a timecode so I know where to go later.
[01:28:36]  So, like, when I saw that I knew, or I had a feeling, because obviously he's dead, so, or was he captured or was he killed?
[01:28:43]  I think he was killed.
[01:28:43]  Yeah, so he's dead.
[01:28:44]  So he can't tell us.
[01:28:45]  But like, I think people screenshot because this is why I do it.
[01:28:48]  And you can find them in my phone.
[01:28:49]  Moments in things so that they can go back and reference that clip.
[01:28:53]  And I ran down both of those time codes.
[01:28:55]  Neither one.
[01:28:55]  I get it.
[01:28:56]  But look, man, this is the majority report.
[01:28:58]  Yeah, but it is why it is a nasty smear.
[01:29:00]  Like you're doing it on purpose.
[01:29:01]  And it's not a political statement.
[01:29:02]  It's not a political argument.
[01:29:03]  You're like, he watched an episode of her show.
[01:29:06]  I'm sorry, of his show.
[01:29:07]  Like that's there was that.
[01:29:08]  There was that one guy who posted Sam Cedar a whole bunch.
[01:29:10]  Remember the guy who killed all those people at the bar in Ohio?
[01:29:13]  I don't remember that case specifically.
[01:29:15]  Why did that guy watch Sam Seder so much?
[01:29:17]  Why do you guys appeal to mass shooters?
[01:29:19]  Why do mass shooters talk about Sam Seder being so inspirational to them?
[01:29:24]  Why is Emma Vigeland inspiring mass shooters?
[01:29:28]  Why are you okay with porn being shown to children?
[01:29:32]  Look, if you want to play a game of nonsense statements for political brownie points, feel free to do so, but I'll say it again.
[01:29:37]  Tim, I didn't mean to upset you.
[01:29:40]  This is exactly why Sam is not welcome on my show.
[01:29:44]  But it's not something that I just one day was like, you know what?
[01:29:47]  No, it's because I had serious conversations with networks and other high-profile individuals and I love- Can you name the high-profile individuals?
[01:29:54]  That's their business.
[01:29:55]  But I absolutely love how the response is, they're scared of Sam!
[01:29:58]  It's like, no, they despise him.
[01:29:59]  He's a bad faith actor who does exactly what you just did.
[01:30:03]  We're having a conversation about scientific research, data, my position on what I like about DeSantis, and then you go, your show's for neo-Nazis.
[01:30:09]  It's like, okay, dude, are you stupid?
[01:30:12]  I'm just stating facts.
[01:30:13]  Okay, this is like lowbrow.
[01:30:16]  This is why you guys have 170 Dave Rubin videos.
[01:30:19]  Do you think the average person cares about Dave Rubin?
[01:30:22]  No, I'm just trying to combat it.
[01:30:23]  No, but you guys get clicks by doing it.
[01:30:24]  Hey, how about you guys run a video about how Tim Pool has gotten into an argument with a pro-lifer about how he's in favor of pro-choice policy.
[01:30:30]  You didn't run that, did you?
[01:30:32]  Because you guys are grifters.
[01:30:33]  This is what you do.
[01:30:34]  I can invite you on for a real conversation, and what do you do?
[01:30:36]  You show three neo-Nazis.
[01:30:38]  This is why you guys don't get invited places.
[01:30:39]  Because you're not having real conversations.
[01:30:41]  I don't really care about getting invited places.
[01:30:43]  Yeah, right, so go live in your grifter echo chamber where you guys can play songs with bad audio and then say, whoopsie!
[01:30:48]  I'm sorry, that audio thing really upset you.
[01:30:50]  Wait, have you ever covered the Gavin?
[01:30:52]  What upsets me is, when I talk about Rhonda Sanders making fake things to trick people, and that's what you guys do, it's kind of like, yeah.
[01:31:00]  Yeah, how about that?
[01:31:00]  We do AI images?
[01:31:02]  When you run audio that sounds bad to make a nonsensical video where you're like, Tim Pool sounds like Knuckleback.
[01:31:09]  It's like what you're doing is just trying to generate rage drama.
[01:31:13]  It is internet blood sports level garbage.
[01:31:16]  It doesn't answer any questions about the questions of pro-life and pro-choice, progressive tax policy.
[01:31:21]  It doesn't answer questions about how we're going to protect or we're going to help kids.
[01:31:24]  All it does is drum up support from your base so they can hoot and holler and give you clicks.
[01:31:29]  Then you complain, we can't get any advertisers!
[01:31:31]  Maybe it's because you make lowbrow drama garbage.
[01:31:33]  No, I mean, the first hour of our program is, uh, the one that's free.
[01:31:37]  For neo-Nazis, you mean?
[01:31:38]  The one where that mass shooter watches the majority report?
[01:31:40]  Is that what you're talking about?
[01:31:41]  The first hour of our program will usually have Social Security and Medicare kind of discussions or we'll essentially talk to an expert on, say, policy in Latin America, that kind of thing.
[01:31:53]  The stuff that's behind the paywall and then gets clipped is stuff where we respond to right-wingers.
[01:31:58]  We want to get into the... He got really mad when I said that he got kicked off of Bob's Burgers.
[01:32:03]  Oh, no, that's funny.
[01:32:04]  You know he was joking, right?
[01:32:06]  He was being sarcastic.
[01:32:07]  I didn't watch the clip.
[01:32:07]  I just know that.
[01:32:08]  Yeah, he was hilarious.
[01:32:10]  First of all, the creator is one of his best friends.
[01:32:13]  Sam's like... Oh, Sam came to me and said he was upset that they kicked him out.
[01:32:17]  They were removing his role from the show.
[01:32:19]  I think he was joking.
[01:32:21]  But used to be at TYT, and Gavin Long, who was the Baton Rouge shooter, watched, reposted, and did reactions to YoungTurk's videos.
[01:32:30]  A lot of them were straight misinformation.
[01:32:31]  There was one in particular where they were going after a cop who slammed a woman, which probably the cop acted inappropriately, but they wildly speculated that it was a black woman.
[01:32:40]  It turned out to be a white woman.
[01:32:42]  And there was a call in the video of like, what do you do if you see a pregnant black woman being assaulted by a cop?
[01:32:49]  Gavin Long said he's going to step up.
[01:32:51]  You can watch these videos.
[01:32:52]  They're available online.
[01:32:53]  And he shot four cops.
[01:32:55]  I mean, I wasn't that wasn't my comment.
[01:32:56]  I didn't say it was your commentary, but you're saying screenshots on this guy's phone.
[01:33:02]  Big problem.
[01:33:03]  I got to bring it up right here.
[01:33:04]  But have you ever covered at all what inspired Gavin Long?
[01:33:08]  He killed four police officers.
[01:33:10]  Yeah, I mean, I don't... That wasn't my coverage, so I don't know.
[01:33:13]  I was based in New York.
[01:33:14]  What about the guy in Dallas?
[01:33:15]  Remember him?
[01:33:16]  That was a different show.
[01:33:18]  I'm sorry.
[01:33:18]  I really didn't mean to trigger you.
[01:33:19]  I'm sorry.
[01:33:20]  No, but I'm just curious where your standards are.
[01:33:22]  Like, have you gone after the hosts on The Young Turks for that one?
[01:33:25]  Clip harvesting, clip farming, is that what you're doing?
[01:33:27]  I don't know what you mean.
[01:33:29]  Like, okay, your demeanor changes before the show to all of a sudden now you're going, what do you mean?
[01:33:34]  I'm so sorry I triggered you.
[01:33:35]  Oh, jeez.
[01:33:36]  I get it, you guys are going to make clips.
[01:33:38]  You guys are lowbrow grifter drama garbage.
[01:33:40]  I'm trying to just speak in a calming tone, so maybe that calms you down a little bit.
[01:33:45]  You want to talk about policy or do you want to just insult people?
[01:33:48]  I would love to talk about policy.
[01:33:49]  So continue, Sean.
[01:33:51]  Yeah, so if screenshots, which are of clips that weren't even him speaking, is Tim Pool inspiring this shooter, then how come you've never done this commentary at a place you used to work at, of direct inspiration?
[01:34:04]  Like, he saw a clip, cuts to himself, saying, I'm gonna step up because I'm the real one.
[01:34:09]  I've never heard of this, so.
[01:34:10]  Oh, that's interesting that you never heard of that.
[01:34:12]  Well, so it happened.
[01:34:12]  Why do you think it is that your former program appealed to mass shooters so much?
[01:34:17]  I cover right-wingers, and I know that right-wing terrorism in this country dwarfs any kind of left-wing terrorism by, like, a nine-to-one figure.
[01:34:24]  I might be underestimating.
[01:34:26]  Because I cover the real threat in this country, which is right-wing terrorism.
[01:34:29]  Sure, so I'll ask again, I guess.
[01:34:30]  Like, why do you think it is this mass shooter was inspired by your former program?
[01:34:33]  I would have to look into it to make a smarter comment on it.
[01:34:36]  Do you feel bad that he was inspired directly and admitted he was?
[01:34:39]  Sure.
[01:34:40]  I mean, again, it's not... Do you take responsibility?
[01:34:42]  It wasn't even my program.
[01:34:44]  I worked there, but yeah.
[01:34:45]  So you're providing material support.
[01:34:48]  I don't know if she was there at the time, to be fair to you.
[01:34:50]  I don't think I was.
[01:34:51]  But I will say it is interesting because the Young Turks did cover this shooting.
[01:34:56]  And even though, again, reacted specifically to Young Turks videos covering the cops very poorly, propaganda inspired him to commit this violence, in my opinion.
[01:35:04]  If you want to talk about the Young Turks, you should talk to them.
[01:35:06]  I would love to, at some point in my life.
[01:35:09]  So he does this, but The Young Turks' coverage of it called him just a sovereign citizen.
[01:35:13]  So this would be categorized as that right-wing terrorism, even though he was inspired by a left-wing news organization, specifically left-wing figures.
[01:35:20]  I'll do a semi-segue, and I'll talk about what irks me, like the Burisma scandal, for instance.
[01:35:26]  Any kind of reasonable assessment over the story pre-Hunter Biden, anything, is pretty shocking.
[01:35:34]  But it's not something you see in any of these quote-unquote left-wing media sources for like no reason.
[01:35:39]  I think the best example is it is so omitted from the narrative that when we had Hunter Avalon on the show, he didn't even believe that Joe Biden admitted to engaging in the quid pro quo, and so I played the video for him.
[01:35:52]  You know, so what's troublesome is What are you talking about?
[01:35:56]  He's talking about the fire the prosecutor clip from Joe Biden, specifically.
[01:36:00]  But I'm not surprised you're not familiar with it.
[01:36:01]  It's it's it doesn't exist in the left's echo chamber.
[01:36:04]  Well, it's funny.
[01:36:05]  It's called the leftist echo chamber.
[01:36:07]  I mean, I am a consumer of leftist news wing news sources, but also I read right wing ones just to check in on it.
[01:36:16]  Centrist news organizations.
[01:36:18]  I think this is a very, very specific echo chamber that I can't speak to.
[01:36:22]  The Burisma thing.
[01:36:23]  I look, I'm not going to defend Joe Biden.
[01:36:26]  I mean, I'm a leftist.
[01:36:28]  I'm to the left of Joe Biden.
[01:36:30]  But this story, I mean, it's pretty much a nothing burger.
[01:36:33]  Uh, the Durham investigation essentially had... We're not talking about Durham.
[01:36:38]  Durham, sorry, I misspoke.
[01:36:40]  The investigation being done in the House right now is like looking into the whistleblower who's suspiciously gone missing and they have an FBI tip for 17 different calls between Hunter Biden and this oligarch.
[01:36:53]  It's weird.
[01:36:53]  It's all completely gobbledygook made up.
[01:36:57]  But at the same time... Why are you defending Joe Biden like that?
[01:37:00]  Like, why not just say, yeah, sure, don't screw that up.
[01:37:02]  Well, I'd love to criticize him on things that I think are actually real, like the fact that he's continued Trump's border policy and ramped it up, honestly, with Title 42, where he did sunset that because it was a part of the emergency during COVID, but he's largely, largely continued militarism around the border, other things like that.
[01:37:22]  If Trump is the nominee, do you think he'll win?
[01:37:25]  No, I don't, but I think he will be the nominee.
[01:37:27]  So wouldn't you rather have say Bernie Sanders as the candidate for the Democrats?
[01:37:31]  Of course.
[01:37:32]  So isn't it your isn't it in your interest then to say by all means investigate Joe Biden if he's corrupt get rid of him?
[01:37:38]  Well I don't think and sure you can do an investigation everything that's come out so far seems like it's bullshit but I would rather criticize him on things I find more substantive.
[01:37:47]  Like, so I can tell you definitively, factually, it's not BS.
[01:37:51]  I mean, certainly there are political elements of it, but I mean, Joe Biden, this is what I was talking about with Hunter Evelyn, Joe Biden's literally on camera saying that he threatened to withhold congressionally approved loan guarantees unless they fired Victor Shokin.
[01:38:03]  Victor Shokin signed a sworn affidavit saying this was intentionally to protect Burisma from investigation.
[01:38:07]  No, this was stated U.S.
[01:38:08]  policy to fire Shokin.
[01:38:09]  This was not a quid pro quo outside of the United States.
[01:38:11]  No, Joe Biden said, if you don't fire the prosecutor, you're not getting the loan guarantees.
[01:38:15]  That is illegal.
[01:38:17]  Okay.
[01:38:18]  The vice president is not the authority to withhold loan guarantees from a foreign nation that have been approved by Congress.
[01:38:23]  It was not because they were investigating Burisma, it was because of European policy.
[01:38:27]  Well, intent is a material.
[01:38:29]  But you're claiming it's a quid pro quo.
[01:38:31]  It is a quid pro quo for Joe Biden to literally say on camera, which he did, fire the prosecutor when you're not getting a loan.
[01:38:36]  No, it's not, though.
[01:38:37]  No, it's not.
[01:38:37]  It's actually, this is weird, you're defending him, it is.
[01:38:39]  He might, so the president might have the discretion to not do that, and Obama might have said- Well, they impeached Trump for that.
[01:38:45]  You represent me in that regard, so it's illegal for him to do that for the investigation.
[01:38:50]  But, like, you guys are off into, like, a different point.
[01:38:53]  The point you were making originally was that Hunter had never seen this clip, but you've seen the clip that they're referencing, right?
[01:38:58]  Because he was making an echo chamber point.

=== Zlochevsky's Investigations (12:18) ===

[01:38:59]  I've read about it.
[01:39:01]  That's very interesting, because that clip was plastered all over.
[01:39:04]  Are you familiar with Gazprom?
[01:39:07]  Mostly my workflow is I read, like, 50 pages of news before the show every day.
[01:39:11]  Honest question, like, are you familiar with Gazprom?
[01:39:14]  No.
[01:39:14]  Are you familiar with the Qatar-Turkey pipeline?
[01:39:16]  The sorry?
[01:39:17]  The Qatar-Turkey pipeline.
[01:39:18]  Oh yeah, yeah.
[01:39:20]  You are?
[01:39:20]  Yeah, I've heard about it.
[01:39:21]  Okay, are you familiar with like US intelligence policy 2009 Syria and how this relates to Gazprom and Burisma and all this stuff?
[01:39:30]  Um, vaguely.
[01:39:32]  I don't understand how, if you have an understanding of that, you would just be like, all of that's true, but the Joe Biden stuff's not true, because it doesn't make any sense as to why you would defend Joe Biden in that way.
[01:39:41]  I just think the investigation's largely BS.
[01:39:44]  I'm not defending Joe Biden.
[01:39:45]  Look into the investigation.
[01:39:47]  If they want to do some sort of special counsel investigation outside of the political process where it's not a Republican witch hunt, I'm all for that.
[01:39:55]  Here's what I'm trying to understand.
[01:39:56]  You think that the quid pro quo is not illegal.
[01:40:00]  It's not.
[01:40:01]  It was stated European policy by the government.
[01:40:04]  And you're connecting it and saying it's a quid pro quo based on a variety of different assumptions that have not been able to be proven yet in the midst of the investigation.
[01:40:14]  This I can't understand.
[01:40:14]  When Donald Trump called Ukraine it was called a quid pro quo.
[01:40:18]  Whether it was U.S.
[01:40:19]  policy or not.
[01:40:19]  It was.
[01:40:20]  The President sets the policy.
[01:40:21]  So if the President calls Ukraine and says, I got this video of Joe Biden, I'd like someone to look into it, he's impeached under a quid pro quo.
[01:40:29]  Right?
[01:40:29]  Whether it is or isn't.
[01:40:31]  Because he was withholding aid to Ukraine.
[01:40:34]  Aid, just like Joe Biden tried to do, right?
[01:40:36]  This was stated U.S.
[01:40:36]  policy at the time.
[01:40:38]  And the President sets U.S.
[01:40:38]  policy, right?
[01:40:39]  But if it's quid pro quo, what was he getting in return?
[01:40:41]  Joe Biden?
[01:40:42]  Yes.
[01:40:42]  He said fire the prosecutor.
[01:40:44]  The prosecutor had 12.
[01:40:45]  Presumably it would be the prosecutor that was investigating Burisma.
[01:40:48]  But I do.
[01:40:48]  What was Biden getting in return?
[01:40:50]  Right.
[01:40:50]  OK, so I'll tell you.
[01:40:51]  First, the Viktor Shokin had about a dozen plus open investigations into my calls.
[01:40:56]  Mykola Zlachevsky, the founder of Burisma, and I believe into Burisma as an ancillary factor.
[01:41:01]  But I just want to say real quick, impeachment doesn't necessarily investigating Burisma.
[01:41:05]  He was.
[01:41:05]  He was not.
[01:41:06]  Yep, yep.
[01:41:07]  Okay, dude, look, if you don't know about this, just don't say no.
[01:41:11]  I can tell you definitively, he was.
[01:41:13]  It was a huge issue.
[01:41:14]  There were a dozen plus investigations opened into Victor- Michael Zlochevsky.
[01:41:19]  Yeah, you're misrepresenting it.
[01:41:20]  In fact, to the point where Zlochevsky fled the country.
[01:41:23]  Zlochevsky fled Ukraine amid these investigations, upon Shokin's firing, returned to Ukraine.
[01:41:29]  After Donald Trump then says, I want this looked into, Zlochevsky flees again.
[01:41:33]  Okay, but what was the quid pro quo?
[01:41:35]  What was Biden getting in return?
[01:41:38]  Presumably, they would stop investigating Burisma, which is where his son worked at.
[01:41:41]  No, no, no, no, that's not it.
[01:41:42]  The quid pro quo is, fire the prosecutor, or I will withhold aid.
[01:41:47]  Okay.
[01:41:47]  You can say it was not proven, but she's asking.
[01:41:50]  No, no, he did say that, but she's saying it's not proven that he did that for personal gain.
[01:41:54]  She's saying, where does it matter?
[01:41:55]  Where's the benefit for Biden?
[01:41:57]  But that's not illegal.
[01:41:58]  Can I clarify a legal point?
[01:42:00]  Impeachment was, was not illegal either because what was his, and that's the exact point I want to clarify.
[01:42:04]  Impeachment is not actually a real legitimate criminal process.
[01:42:07]  It is a political process.
[01:42:08]  I understand that.
[01:42:09]  So, like, him being impeached for this, like, doesn't actually say anything to the legality.
[01:42:13]  Trump was not following United States policy.
[01:42:16]  Biden was.
[01:42:16]  He sets the policy.
[01:42:17]  He's the president.
[01:42:19]  Congress does.
[01:42:21]  We have separations of powers in this country.
[01:42:23]  The president sets policy for the executive branch.
[01:42:25]  Congress isn't the one making calls for a nipple next to it.
[01:42:28]  Not for aid.
[01:42:28]  No, they allocate the aid, but he's able to pull it under certain circumstances.
[01:42:33]  It's not just that foreign policy is set by the president.
[01:42:35]  Oh, yeah.
[01:42:36]  A huge portion of it.
[01:42:38]  Right, right, right.
[01:42:38]  OK, nothing's absolute.
[01:42:40]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:42:40]  But the idea that we would elect a president to negotiate on our interests when it comes to the issues of military, and then we would be like, but in this one instance, he doesn't have the authority.
[01:42:48]  What do you mean?
[01:42:48]  He's the one who sets the policy.
[01:42:49]  No, no, he has the authority.
[01:42:51]  the argument is that Joe Biden wasn't engaging in a quid pro quo because it was a policy of our administration.
[01:42:55]  Yeah, Obama had a policy.
[01:42:57]  A quid pro quo is when you get something personally in return.
[01:43:01]  So something for something is what it means.
[01:43:02]  Right, but the nature of the investigation that they're looking into is they're trying to say that there was a bribe via Hunter Biden and there has been no- Joe and Hunter.
[01:43:11]  Right, right, but there has been no actual evidence on that front.
[01:43:15]  Well, I'm not super concerned about what they may be investigating currently.
[01:43:17]  Right now I'm talking about, it is, the whole point of this was, I can't believe we're even arguing it right now.
[01:43:23]  Like, I don't understand why, why you, who's someone who has every reason to oppose Joe Biden, are like, he said it on camera, but you know what?
[01:43:30]  It's fine.
[01:43:30]  I don't get it.
[01:43:31]  Like, just be like, yeah, sure, fine.
[01:43:33]  But she's making a very specific point that for it to be a quid pro quo, you have to explain how Biden benefited from this.
[01:43:39]  So, like, it's not necessarily that she's disagreeing with what you're saying, although she's saying it's part of policy, but she's saying you have to actually, to complete this, like, basically you're two-thirds of the way there, that final third is how he benefited.
[01:43:50]  Biden was not in opposition to congressional policy and Trump was.
[01:43:54]  I'm talking about Joe Biden threatening to withhold loan guarantees, goes against It's not legal.
[01:43:59]  You're talking past each other because she's saying like there's a reason for that and it's not corrupt related.
[01:44:04]  That has nothing to do with what I'm saying is what I'm saying.
[01:44:05]  I know.
[01:44:05]  I'm just clarifying where you guys are miscommunicating.
[01:44:08]  This is where I'll say I have differences with Joe Biden.
[01:44:11]  First of all, I can't even like understand why he hasn't or didn't when he had a House and a Senate that was Democratic push for any kind of single payer or socialized health care.
[01:44:21]  I wish that that was happening.
[01:44:23]  He's certainly to the right of me on the border.
[01:44:27]  The fact that he broke the rail strike, that's something that I'm deeply in opposition to, and I'm happy to discuss those kinds of things with you.
[01:44:34]  I really want to get into the Burisma thing.
[01:44:37]  It came up as an example of I don't understand why there's a tribal need to defend Joe Biden.
[01:44:42]  It's not tribal.
[01:44:47]  It was U.S.
[01:44:48]  policy to get rid of corruption in Ukraine.
[01:44:50]  Shokin was non-investigating Burisma.
[01:44:53]  Biden was in concert.
[01:44:56]  He was continuing U.S.
[01:44:58]  policy.
[01:44:59]  Trump was in opposition to it.
[01:45:00]  That is the difference in the hypocrisy that you're trying to highlight here.
[01:45:06]  You guys are going to go in circles on this, but why don't you- I have to pull it up, but, like, because we covered this a long time ago.
[01:45:11]  I don't want to do the whole Burisma thing.
[01:45:12]  My point was simply that, like, having covered this to such extent, it is confusing to me the need to defend the Bidens on this one.
[01:45:20]  I just, like- I just criticized Biden in a bunch of different ways.
[01:45:23]  But I don't understand why you're saying there was no investigation.
[01:45:25]  Like, you're just making that up.
[01:45:26]  They're in the middle of an investigation right now.
[01:45:28]  No, no, no, no.
[01:45:29]  Mykola Zlochevsky had 12 to 14 open investigations.
[01:45:31]  I'm sorry, Shokin had a dozen plus investigations into Zlochevsky and Burisma.
[01:45:37]  OK.
[01:45:37]  But I don't know why you're like, no, that's not true.
[01:45:40]  I don't know.
[01:45:41]  It's been a couple of years since we cover this in depth and had all the articles to be fair.
[01:45:44]  But yeah, they did.
[01:45:46]  Like, that's not even a question of the facts.
[01:45:48]  OK.
[01:45:49]  The question is whether or not.
[01:45:51]  Like they wanted someone else to do it.
[01:45:53]  I feel I kind of delineated why it's different.
[01:45:55]  Um, pretty, pretty distinctly.
[01:45:58]  Trump was in violation of US policy set by Congress.
[01:46:01]  Biden was not.
[01:46:01]  That is the difference that we're laying out here.
[01:46:03]  And you have been unable to establish how Biden benefits in the quid pro quo from this in any way.
[01:46:09]  Well, currently, the argument is that, well, his son was on the board of Burisma.
[01:46:12]  I mean, so that was kind of obvious, as was a CIA director.
[01:46:14]  Yeah, I mean, totally.
[01:46:16]  So there's a counterterrorism director of the CIA on the board of this company, and the so-called left is like, well, it's fine.
[01:46:22]  What is going on?
[01:46:23]  I don't understand how the left became pro-war, pro-Medic, pro-Big Pharma.
[01:46:28]  Like, like, government should be able to give multi-billion dollar, uh, no-bid contracts to- Tim, I'm against government corruption, the idea that these fail- that these fail sons- Vaccine mandates, like, I don't- That these fail sons- What about vaccine mandates?
[01:46:39]  I said, I don't understand how the left became pro-Big Pharma, pro-no-bid- It's not pro-Big Pharma, I'm pro-public health.
[01:46:46]  So you- so you're in favor of no-bid, no-liability contracts for massive multinational pharmaceuticals?
[01:46:52]  No, I was literally just said earlier in the program that I wanted the state to own it since we gave our money to that and created life-saving vaccines with taxpayer money.
[01:47:02]  Right, so who gets the money?
[01:47:04]  Big Pharma did.
[01:47:05]  It's messed up.
[01:47:05]  We should have socialized healthcare in this country and manufacturing it ourselves.
[01:47:10]  Even if the patents were released to the public, they still gave the billion-dollar production contracts to Big Pharma.
[01:47:16]  But that is what we live in, unfortunately, right now.
[01:47:19]  And we're in the middle of a global pandemic and we needed vaccines immediately.
[01:47:23]  That's not left.
[01:47:24]  No, it is.
[01:47:25]  It certainly is.
[01:47:26]  I believe that in the immediate... Hyper-centralized?
[01:47:29]  Excuse me?
[01:47:30]  Hyper-centralized funding of massive multinational pharmaceuticals is not leftist.
[01:47:34]  Well, what would be the alternative, Tim, in the midst of a global pandemic?
[01:47:38]  Decentralized bid contracts with liability I literally just said earlier in the program that I was in favor and much closer.
[01:47:47]  Also, I'm surprised you're saying this because didn't you say that you were more close to Trump on vaccine policy?
[01:47:52]  This is Trump's vaccine policy.
[01:47:53]  No, you were talking about that.
[01:47:54]  OK, I am closer to him than that.
[01:47:56]  Yeah.
[01:47:56]  On that.
[01:47:57]  I believe that when we have investment into these companies, yes, they were going to make some sort of windfall, but then the vaccines themselves should be owned.
[01:48:06]  by the public since it was money, our money that was given into it.
[01:48:09]  That's the practical realities of what we have to deal with today in a for profit health care system.
[01:48:14]  I'm hoping that we transition away from that and that we have socialized health care.
[01:48:20]  So none of the things that you're talking about have to happen anymore.
[01:48:23]  I don't think you need to give no bid, no liability contracts to massive pharmaceuticals to do what needed to be done.
[01:48:30]  You know what I mean?
[01:48:32]  I think it's just that the government is crooked.
[01:48:34]  So you're closer to DeSantis on vaccine policy?
[01:48:38]  Probably neither.
[01:48:39]  I don't know what applies to what we're talking about.
[01:48:41]  So what's your alternative to producing the vaccine in the rapid way that Operation Warp Speed did?
[01:48:47]  Well, there are a lot of questions about whether or not it worked in any capacity, right?
[01:48:53]  No, there's not.
[01:48:54]  What do you mean?
[01:48:55]  The vaccines were highly effective.
[01:48:57]  What does that mean?
[01:49:00]  Originally at preventing death.
[01:49:01]  Then, of course, there were different variants and disease continued to spread.
[01:49:05]  But vaccines were immensely effective in preventing death, the mRNA vaccines.
[01:49:10]  What I mean more so is like the Operation Warp Speed was predicated upon preventing the spread, which it didn't do, right?
[01:49:18]  Sorry?
[01:49:18]  Operation Warpsy was predicated upon- Yes, it did.
[01:49:21]  It helped prevent the spread.
[01:49:23]  It didn't?
[01:49:23]  Yes, it did.
[01:49:25]  Well, I mean, part of the issue was that in red states there were no- there was no ability to actually- They prevented death, but I think, like, wasn't it like, oh yeah- There was no- Mass mandates were immediately done away with in red states.
[01:49:39]  They basically had no social distancing.
[01:49:41]  That was much more of a- had much more of an effect on death in this country than Like, the inefficacy of vaccines.
[01:49:50]  This has been borne out by data after data after data.
[01:49:53]  And then we have new variations of the vaccines, which have also helped.
[01:49:59]  Nothing was going to reduce the spread that much.
[01:50:00]  It was already one of the most contagious viruses, and then it mutated to become more contagious.
[01:50:06]  Well, it helped with both transmissions and severity.
[01:50:09]  That's a fact.
[01:50:10]  The mRNA vaccines did.
[01:50:11]  Well, I don't want to deviate too much.
[01:50:13]  We're talking about big pharmaceuticals.
[01:50:17]  So my issue would be like, instead of having like three big companies, I think it was like four big companies just do it, would be to have it decentralized amongst many different producers who are not centralized.
[01:50:29]  And that can be done.
[01:50:30]  We just have to do it.
[01:50:31]  Talking like a prize.
[01:50:32]  Like, hey, if you develop this vaccine, whoever does it first, then you get the windfall.
[01:50:36]  Or even like a mandated coordination of production, but not have one company just be like, we're going to give $10 billion to company X. That's insane.
[01:50:44]  Didn't, didn't one of these companies refuse the money upfront for fear of future ownership of it?
[01:50:49]  You know what I mean?
[01:50:50]  Yeah.
[01:50:50]  Was that Moderna or something like that?
[01:50:51]  I don't remember which one.
[01:50:52]  I don't know.
[01:50:52]  I don't know.
[01:50:53]  Anyway, my point was, you know, there's that meme that Elon Musk made where like the left moves further and further left.
[01:50:59]  I think that the left has actually gone right in a weird way.
[01:51:01]  How is preventing death in a global pandemic?

=== Russia's Nuclear Betrayal (15:46) ===

[01:51:05]  Are you in favor of the war in Ukraine?
[01:51:08]  I'm sorry, I'll rephrase.
[01:51:10]  Do you believe the U.S.
[01:51:11]  should be involved in providing material support to the Ukrainians?
[01:51:15]  I have been in favor of it, yes.
[01:51:17]  I do think that there are legitimate concerns about The continuation of doing so without brokering a piece and it becoming some sort of proxy for US, like, war criminals within the United States.
[01:51:31]  But in terms of, like, the Russian invasion, I am completely opposed and in support of the Ukrainian people.
[01:51:36]  Yeah, it's more a question of, like, should we have given, what are we at, like, a hundred and two hundred billion?
[01:51:41]  I don't know, because there's guarantees which have not been delivered, and it's in terms of weapons, so I don't know what's actually been delivered.
[01:51:48]  This is what I don't understand.
[01:51:49]  People I used to know from back during Occupy are flying Ukrainian flags and being like, we got to support this.
[01:51:56]  Hasan Piker criticized me for saying we shouldn't be involved.
[01:51:59]  He also said the invasion wasn't going to happen for sure.
[01:52:02]  Like 100% it's going to happen the next day.
[01:52:03]  But my position has always been 99% non-intervention.
[01:52:08]  I've not changed at all in that regard.
[01:52:10]  And the left has become pro-intervention.
[01:52:14]  But Ukraine is on the defense.
[01:52:17]  They were invaded.
[01:52:18]  This is not the same thing.
[01:52:19]  You want to talk about Kuwait and Iraq and... You want to talk about that?
[01:52:23]  I'm in favor!
[01:52:24]  We were the equivalent of Russia in the case of Iraq.
[01:52:27]  We invaded under completely false pretenses, we invaded under illegal pretenses, and we killed and decimated that country.
[01:52:35]  Hundreds of thousands dead because of the U.S.
[01:52:37]  Empire.
[01:52:37]  If the left position was only opposed to war because of the circumstances of the war, Then I would say the left is more pro-war and to the right of me on war.
[01:52:46]  I'm completely anti-war, but the war happened because Russia invaded and now Ukraine is trying to defend itself.
[01:52:52]  Right, right.
[01:52:52]  So you're anti-war, you oppose war.
[01:52:54]  Yes.
[01:52:54]  But you're to the right of me when it comes to Ukraine.
[01:52:57]  Um, I don't think so.
[01:52:58]  Do you believe that the U.S.
[01:52:59]  should be supplying and aiding the Ukrainians?
[01:53:01]  I do believe so, because they're defending themselves.
[01:53:03]  Who gets that money?
[01:53:04]  The military.
[01:53:05]  But they're defending themselves.
[01:53:07]  Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin.
[01:53:09]  Yeah, totally, totally.
[01:53:10]  Yeah, I'm opposed to all of that.
[01:53:11]  I mean, look.
[01:53:12]  If you're to the right of me on that issue.
[01:53:13]  If you believe that Russia should be able to invade Ukraine and take territory without recourse, then, I mean, that's pro-imperialism.
[01:53:20]  That's not No, a lot of people around the world do a lot of bad things.
[01:53:25]  I don't think the US should be an empire going and funding wars all over the world.
[01:53:28]  We're not funding wars.
[01:53:29]  We're funding the defense.
[01:53:30]  I mean, and there's something that you can be said where, where should we draw a certain line?
[01:53:35]  I have already conceded that strings should be attached and we should be involved in peace negotiations.
[01:53:39]  But to flatten the power dynamics here, I mean, I would imagine this is like the same argument that you hear when it comes to Israel and Palestine, right?
[01:53:49]  Where Palestinians are defending themselves and then it's, oh my gosh, it's completely symmetrical, Israel and Palestine.
[01:53:58]  These are two actors just battling it out.
[01:54:00]  To your favor of intervention there?
[01:54:01]  No, one, I would love to fund Palestinians so that they were able to have a better life for themselves.
[01:54:05]  You are to the right of me on foreign policy.
[01:54:06]  Well, we already fund Israel, dude.
[01:54:08]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:54:09]  Are you against that?
[01:54:10]  That's a tougher question I don't have an answer to.
[01:54:12]  Then you're in favor of funding military.
[01:54:15]  We fund the Iron Dome.
[01:54:16]  We fund their military industrial complex.
[01:54:17]  Me literally saying I don't know anything enough about it, and I lean against intervention.
[01:54:21]  Then if it's your principle and you're anti-war, then you should be saying that we should cut funding for Israeli defense right now.
[01:54:27]  That's why I said 99%.
[01:54:29]  I'll say I absolutely lean against providing military aid to Israel.
[01:54:33]  I just don't know.
[01:54:34]  Uh, I will say, a new war in Ukraine, in a territory that we are not, United States is not, doesn't mean that I'm as far left as possible on the question of imperialism, it means that you are to the right of me on that issue.
[01:54:47]  Yeah.
[01:54:47]  Like, your position would provide funding for massive multinational military industrial complex corporations.
[01:54:52]  I mean, I think that's the fact that we do have those contracts as a mess-up.
[01:54:55]  I think they should be dismantled, split into a thousand pieces, and scattered everywhere.
[01:54:58]  Sure, I think the United States should be more primarily... You want to nationalize the defense industry?
[01:55:01]  You want to go for that?
[01:55:02]  I'm down.
[01:55:03]  I don't know about nationalizing.
[01:55:04]  That empowers it, makes it permanent.
[01:55:06]  Well, there's always going to be a weapons industry, and there's always going to be... It should be decentralized.
[01:55:10]  It should be severely cut into.
[01:55:12]  But the United States, by the way, made a promise in 1993 to Ukraine that we would defend them if they denuclearized.
[01:55:17]  That's true.
[01:55:18]  So that is part of what we're doing in this instance.
[01:55:20]  That's true, too.
[01:55:21]  And I think that's an interesting question about upholding our obligations that I don't disagree with.
[01:55:26]  It would be very difficult for us.
[01:55:28]  Granted, the issue is I think I'm like a little kid.
[01:55:30]  I'm like seven years old when something like that happens.
[01:55:32]  And now in my name, you know, we engage in this conflict and war.
[01:55:36]  I think it's fair to say that while I can understand that treaty exists, as a now adult who is paying tax into this, I have the right to object to past agreements that weren't made by me.
[01:55:45]  That being said, I just, my point on this one was specifically, I see all these Ukrainian flags and profiles.
[01:55:52]  I make a comment in agreement with Hassan, where I was like, he was right about Mr. Beast.
[01:55:57]  And then I was talking about military intervention and how it's wrong.
[01:56:00]  We're spending $100 billion on this war in Ukraine.
[01:56:02]  We shouldn't be doing it.
[01:56:02]  And then he laughed at me over it.
[01:56:04]  And I'm just like, genuine question, when did it become, or maybe I was always wrong.
[01:56:08]  When I was at like Occupy or doing these anti-Iraq war protests back in the 2000s, I thought that it was the left position to oppose military expansion, military-industrial complex.
[01:56:18]  But today, it's inverted.
[01:56:20]  Strangely, it's the Trump supporter saying no war, and it's the liberal saying per war.
[01:56:24]  No, because they're in favor of Russian imperialism.
[01:56:26]  That is your, again, flattening power dynamics of who was the invader and who has been invaded.
[01:56:31]  That's not what I'm talking about.
[01:56:32]  I'm in favor of the United States abiding by the treaty that we promised Ukraine in 1993.
[01:56:37]  I'm not talking about any of that.
[01:56:39]  I'm talking about the moral position of war.
[01:56:42]  And by the way, why I'm more pro-war than you, or anti-war, Jesus, anti-war than you, is that I'm in favor of broad denuclearization.
[01:56:50]  And I think that we should continue to make our promises to countries that choose not to engage in making nuclear power.
[01:56:57]  How does that make you more than me?
[01:56:58]  Or in nuclear weaponry.
[01:56:59]  I don't disagree on that at all.
[01:57:00]  Okay, then there you go.
[01:57:01]  But I'm in favor of committing and making our- and because they denuclearized and said that we're not going to create nuclear weaponry, I am in favor of keeping our promise on that front so that we are able to incentivize and keep our promises that we are going to back you up if you choose not to make nuclear weaponry.
[01:57:21]  Maybe it's not a left or right thing.
[01:57:23]  Maybe it's more of just like a libertarian thing.
[01:57:25]  I mean, I think it's, I think it's, um, that first of all, anti-war is, is a dumb like position.
[01:57:31]  I'm sorry.
[01:57:31]  It's everybody, everybody's like anti-wars they don't like, but obviously like I can composite a scenario where you would support like an intervention.
[01:57:39]  Like if you gave me time to like, that's what I say, 99% because nothing's absolute.
[01:57:43]  Like if you were to tell me that, uh, a, you know, Vladimir Putin, But there's something to what she's saying where the Ukraine after the fall of the Soviet Union had the third largest nuclear weapon stockpile and in exchange for giving it up there were security guarantees now.
[01:58:05]  If you're worried about nuclear proliferation in other countries that might lead to a nuclear war, protecting or making sure that they can maintain their territorial integrity, just as an example to other countries that might want to denuclearize in the future, is a worthwhile stake.
[01:58:22]  And I think I understand that position.
[01:58:24]  Like, it makes perfect sense in my opinion.
[01:58:26]  I understand it.
[01:58:28]  I don't care though, right?
[01:58:29]  So it's kind of like if some dude cut a deal with, like someone in my family cut a deal with someone else and then 30 years later they walk up and say, you know, your dad told me that if I ever had this problem, you're going to take care of me.
[01:58:41]  I'd be like, I'm not my dad.
[01:58:42]  I'm sorry.
[01:58:43]  Like governments change, policies change.
[01:58:45]  And the idea that because 30 years ago, someone cut you a promise means that I now have to spend $200 billion defending you.
[01:58:53]  The people of this generation who are inheriting this country did not agree to that.
[01:58:57]  No, it's fine.
[01:58:58]  So what does that say to people who might be manufacturing their own nuclear weaponry?
[01:59:03]  That the promises made by the world superpower don't really matter.
[01:59:07]  I don't like the idea of America being this world superpower.
[01:59:11]  I agree.
[01:59:12]  My view is probably different for you in that regard.
[01:59:14]  I'm more so like, I think it'd be great if we brought jobs back here, if we protected the middle class, maybe had stronger workers' rights.
[01:59:24]  Oh, 100%.
[01:59:24]  You want to talk unions?
[01:59:26]  I'm in favor of that.
[01:59:27]  Tariffs on imports for two reasons.
[01:59:30]  The idea that we'd manufacture a car in China and then ship it on a boat over here just to waste energy because someone's willing to do it cheaper is nonsensical to me.
[01:59:37]  Just buy American.
[01:59:39]  So we need to build up the incentives for all the manufacturing to happen here in the United States to create good jobs, to protect the workers.
[01:59:44]  Worry less about whether or not we're gonna go blow up some foreign country a bunch of kids in it or something like that.
[01:59:48]  But I think I think like there's like a like you're not you're not seeing this past like what's currently happening now because I get it right and I was a big Ron Paul guy and he didn't like the idea that one generation could promise the sons of a future generation.
[02:00:03]  That's exactly right.
[02:00:04]  I understand that position, but if we don't want Saudi Arabia to nuclearize, we don't want Iran to nuclearize, and we're like, hey, like, you know, like, we got you.
[02:00:12]  Like, don't nuclearize.
[02:00:13]  We're going to try to, like, you know, be the 800-pound gorilla in the room so that you don't have problems.
[02:00:19]  And then they look and say, well, you made that promise to Ukraine.
[02:00:22]  And then 30 years later, they're invaded by Russia and completely obliterated.
[02:00:27]  Why are we making those promises?
[02:00:29]  Because that's the nature of a treaty.
[02:00:30]  No, you know, How could any treaty exist, Tim, if people had your position and just said, yeah, fuck it.
[02:00:39]  People, treaties- So that's anti-diplomacy, and that's pro-war.
[02:00:43]  Oh, come on.
[02:00:44]  Being anti-diplomacy- We shouldn't go to war, like that's pro-war.
[02:00:46]  Well, being anti-diplomacy is pro-war.
[02:00:48]  The idea that we can make a treaty around, here's why we won't attack you.
[02:00:51]  Totally fine.
[02:00:51]  Here's a treaty around, I'm gonna allow your citizens to cross my border with no visa, and we'll reciprocate, like back and forth.
[02:00:57]  And then having one being like, in 30 years, if anyone comes to fight you, we will fight on your behalf, despite the fact that you're not an allied nation, or a bunch of other issues.
[02:01:06]  I don't think at any point ever, the US should have been making these promises.
[02:01:11]  And then to come out and be like, but now Saudi Arabia is, oh, I'm sure.
[02:01:15]  Every country is gonna be upset if we don't fight on the behalf of some other country.
[02:01:18]  - No, no, it's not about- - There are limitations.
[02:01:19]  Look, nothing's absolute, I get it.
[02:01:21]  We're in this position now.
[02:01:22]  There's an interesting question of South Korea.
[02:01:24]  People ask me, what if China invaded?
[02:01:25]  And I'm like, well, we got a lot of troops there right now.
[02:01:27]  So I understand the circumstances of today.
[02:01:30]  But the issue is, you know, for one, we could have put a no-fly zone over Ukraine before the invasion started.
[02:01:35]  That would have stopped Russia in its tracks.
[02:01:37]  Well, a no-fly zone is a de facto declaration of war once the plane gets shot down, once the United States... And that means Russia would have to have shot down, would have had to attack us.
[02:01:47]  I mean, either way, the no-fly zone and us getting more directly involved in that way would be catastrophic, potentially.
[02:01:54]  War between two nuclear powers.
[02:01:58]  Agreed.
[02:01:58]  Fair point.
[02:02:00]  I think my position is more so just this is a Russian border dispute over the Donbass region.
[02:02:07]  The U.S.
[02:02:08]  It's an invasion, Tim.
[02:02:11]  Sure.
[02:02:12]  I'm talking about the specifics of why they're doing it, right?
[02:02:15]  They've invaded Ukraine because they want the land bridge into Crimea.
[02:02:18]  Why do they want the land bridge into Crimea?
[02:02:21]  Because Western forces were courting Ukraine.
[02:02:24]  Ukraine was being courted to the Russian Trade Federation and to the European Union.
[02:02:28]  Ukrainians wanted to join the European Union.
[02:02:29]  It would be a massive boost to their economy and they get access to the Schengen Zone.
[02:02:32]  It's wonderful.
[02:02:34]  Russia didn't like that.
[02:02:35]  So Russia tried to intervene.
[02:02:36]  Yanukovych was ousted, fled the country.
[02:02:38]  Russia then immediately got their troops outside of Sevastopol and said, we're claiming this, it's our warm water port in the Black Sea.
[02:02:44]  And then we started to see the bubbling up of the Eastern conflict, some people call it a civil war.
[02:02:48]  And then finally, when Russia was losing and said, if we cannot lose access to the Black Sea, they said, we're taking the Donbass.
[02:02:55]  And this is where we are.
[02:02:56]  Yeah, it's a territorial imperialism.
[02:02:57]  So why are we involved?
[02:02:59]  Because of a treaty from 30 years ago.
[02:03:00]  Yeah, because we made a promise.
[02:03:02]  I think we should not have made an So you think that they should not have gotten rid of their nuclear stockpile?
[02:03:07]  Because that was what the treaty was based on.
[02:03:09]  We could have offered them something else.
[02:03:12]  That's the reason why they would keep them, is to protect themselves from Russian aggression.
[02:03:17]  Because Russia historically expands westward until they hit a stronger power.
[02:03:22]  And this is because the geographical limitations to how Russia can develop have been the same for hundreds of years.
[02:03:28]  So Russia always goes that direction.
[02:03:32]  That's why Poland immediately in the first opportunity joins NATO, because Poland was called the bloodlands in World War II, because they had the unfortunate situation where two strong powers were attacking.
[02:03:43]  Wasn't there also a treaty that NATO wouldn't expand?
[02:03:45]  No, this is false.
[02:03:46]  There was never an agreement.
[02:03:48]  So this is a misinterpretation that is often inflated and Gorbachev has clarified this specifically.
[02:03:55]  It's after the Berlin Wall fell, which the Soviet Union was still around, they said that they would not move their military forces within Berlin one inch eastward, right?
[02:04:07]  This did not apply to Poland or any of these other countries because they were a part of the Soviet Union.
[02:04:12]  And again, Gorbachev himself, who would have been the person in charge, has made this clear.
[02:04:17]  So this is like weird propaganda that gets put out by... What do you think happens if we let Russia take Ukraine?
[02:04:24]  I mean, I think they're going to try to expand their sphere of influence as far westward as they can possibly do, because that's what they do historically.
[02:04:32]  But this is completely denying the sovereignty of Ukrainians.
[02:04:35]  I mean, what does Ukraine want?
[02:04:36]  They want the ability to defend themselves, and the United States is providing them with that.
[02:04:43]  To to follow our treaties and and give them the ability to defend themselves against imperialism.
[02:04:50]  I think also the point I was making earlier is not that Saudi Arabia cares about Ukraine but like when you're negotiating with somebody right like you know pasta.
[02:04:59]  Like, past behavior is the best predictor of future outcome.
[02:05:02]  So when we're trying to negotiate denuclearization with any other country, and our example of what happened to somebody who agreed to give up their nuclear stockpile is Ukraine, which is currently now part of Russia, like, they're not going to want to negotiate with us.
[02:05:18]  So it leads to potential problems down the line.
[02:05:20]  Not to mention, historically, when conflict breaks out on the European continent, a lot of Americans eventually go over there and die in order to set things right.
[02:05:28]  And I don't want to I think this is what makes the Third World War.
[02:05:33]  I mean, I could agree or disagree on that.
[02:05:35]  Russia could have taken the Donbass region and we would have been like, wow, that was bad, that was horrible.
[02:05:40]  And it would have been like Crimea.
[02:05:41]  Crimea got taken and it was a big news event.
[02:05:44]  But weren't they shelling the capital?
[02:05:46]  Was it not beyond the Donbass region where they were attacking?
[02:05:49]  Pretty sure it was just the Donbass region.
[02:05:51]  No, they were shelling Kiev.
[02:05:54]  They were shelling all over the country.
[02:05:56]  I mean, let's be real.
[02:05:57]  Russia claims the whole territory of the Ukraine and, like, their greater Russia as part of them.
[02:06:02]  So, like, they may be saying there's ethnic Russians right now.
[02:06:04]  We found some connections here.
[02:06:06]  There we go.
[02:06:06]  That's beautiful.
[02:06:07]  Like, there might be ethnic Russians in the Donbass.
[02:06:09]  Should we go to war with China?
[02:06:11]  Absolutely not.
[02:06:12]  Depends on for what?
[02:06:13]  We're not in war with Russia right now.
[02:06:15]  So that's the difference.
[02:06:16]  That's the real line that needs to be drawn, is making sure that this does not become a proxy battle.
[02:06:21]  And there are forces that want to push for that.
[02:06:23]  I mean, I think that, frankly, the Biden administration has been a bit more disciplined and unhappy than I initially anticipated on this front.
[02:06:31]  I remember when the initial invasion happened, Hillary Clinton went on cable news and said, I think that America being a global hegemon is a good thing because those power vacuums will be filled when we leave.

=== Why Universal Basic Health Care? (02:56) ===

[02:06:40]  dangerous notion.
[02:06:41]  So she wanted war from the get go back in 2016.
[02:06:44]  Sure.
[02:06:44]  I mean, that's the kind of force within the Democratic Party.
[02:06:47]  I'm trying to be back.
[02:06:48]  I think that America being a global hegemon is a good thing because those power vacuums will be filled when we leave.
[02:06:55]  I want to not go to war, but I want countries to feel like we would go to war because I like deterrence as a policy.
[02:07:03]  So like I hear it.
[02:07:04]  It's tough because it's not working.
[02:07:06]  And that's why I'm at the, you know, my view is strengthen this country, you know, shore up our defenses, focus on empowering our people with the ability to live, work, eat, sleep, Medicare.
[02:07:19]  What does that mean?
[02:07:20]  Not Medicare, medical care in some capacity.
[02:07:22]  Medicare for all potentially?
[02:07:24]  That's a specific thing.
[02:07:25]  Socialist public option.
[02:07:27]  How about that?
[02:07:28]  I call it universal basic health care.
[02:07:30]  What does that mean?
[02:07:32]  We provide basic healthcare to all people.
[02:07:35]  How so?
[02:07:36]  Well, I mean, if you wanna get into the intricacies of it, I could ask you the same question.
[02:07:39]  I'm saying that- Yeah, through taxation.
[02:07:41]  For me.
[02:07:43]  Creating a socialized healthcare system.
[02:07:45]  But I don't know if I would call it a socialized healthcare system, probably because I think you're going further than I'm going with it.
[02:07:50]  I'm saying like- How else do you raise money then to have like a- Well, I'm not saying not taxes.
[02:07:56]  I'm saying like, my limit is usually like if someone's got some like rare Degenerative genetic disorder that requires 20 billion dollars to treat like we have a limit.
[02:08:06]  We can't do that.
[02:08:07]  You know what I mean?
[02:08:08]  That's why I say basic There's a there was a story about a kid in like I think it was Louisiana who had a genetic disorder the treatment cost 1 million dollars and The family demanded the state cover it the states that we can't afford to cover it But why do you think that healthcare is so heavily inflated in terms of costs in this country?
[02:08:25]  Well, for one, the insurance companies are all corrupt and broken.
[02:08:27]  Absolutely, absolutely.
[02:08:28]  In Germany, in the UK, they spend half of what we do and they have socialized healthcare and they have better outcomes in terms of life expectancy, infant mortality.
[02:08:37]  Didn't Trump do the thing with like cheaper insulin from Canada or something?
[02:08:41]  I think Biden might have done something to the insulin was a part of the negotiations in the in the inflation reduction.
[02:08:47]  But I just want to point out, like, those are horrible metrics, life expectancy and infant mortality for two reasons.
[02:08:53]  Number one, if you take out car accidents in the United States of America, our life expectancy shoots dramatically up.
[02:09:00]  In Europe, a lot less people drive and considering we're talking about medical care, I think we should focus on things that describe the impact of medical care.
[02:09:08]  As for life, I'm sorry, infant mortality, this is one of the worst metrics because if you are born at any point for a split second and you die, you go into our infant mortality statistics.

=== 40 Grand Hospital Bill (03:01) ===

[02:09:19]  In France, for example, you have to have the pregnancy gestate for over 20 weeks and you have to be alive for a full 24 hours.
[02:09:26]  So this is just not Here's an apples to apples comparison.
[02:09:29]  I think the doctors would disagree with your assessment that the infant mortality rates are overinflated, but I'll then just turn to- They're just measuring different things.
[02:09:36]  They can disagree with that, but they would be incorrect, wrong, not even close.
[02:09:40]  But how about the cost element that I just mentioned?
[02:09:42]  Yeah, cost is definitely a huge problem.
[02:09:43]  And I think this has to do with third party payers.
[02:09:44]  That's because we have privatized healthcare.
[02:09:46]  That's because we have privatized healthcare.
[02:09:47]  I would disagree with that.
[02:09:47]  Dominance.
[02:09:48]  I don't completely disagree.
[02:09:49]  I got a kidney stone and my bill was like 40 grand.
[02:09:51]  Hey, so I've had a kidney stone before.
[02:09:52]  They charged me like 40 grand.
[02:09:53]  And then when I, because I was between jobs, I left Vice.
[02:09:57]  And I was starting at Fusion, and I had this one week gap where I told the guys, I was like, give me a week to get, like, to move my stuff, and then I'll start.
[02:10:05]  And that week, all of a sudden, I'm like, ah, like, what's happening?
[02:10:09]  It was crazy.
[02:10:09]  People think that kidney stones are like you're going to the bathroom, and all of a sudden, you're like, no, it's like in your body, up in your back, like, in your gut.
[02:10:16]  They thought it was appendicitis at first.
[02:10:18]  Yeah.
[02:10:19]  I went to the hospital for, I think, like, two days, and they charged me something like 40 grand.
[02:10:24]  No insurance.
[02:10:25]  It was because I had just left, so they sent me a bill and they were, I'm like, holy crap.
[02:10:30]  So I call and I was like, I just left my job and I have a one week lapse in my insurance.
[02:10:35]  And they went, oh, oh, no problem.
[02:10:37]  And they emailed me the new bill and it was four grand.
[02:10:40]  And then I was like, no, hold on there a minute.
[02:10:42]  What happened?
[02:10:43]  Fortunately, shout out to all the complaints I've had about Fusion.
[02:10:46]  They said, don't worry, man.
[02:10:47]  We're going to pay for it for you.
[02:10:48]  That shouldn't have happened to you.
[02:10:49]  And I said, thank you.
[02:10:51]  But like the idea that I went to the hospital for two days and they did nothing for me.
[02:10:56]  To be fair, I shouldn't say that.
[02:10:58]  I got put in like a CAT scan or whatever.
[02:11:01]  They're trying to figure out what it was.
[02:11:02]  They thought I had appendicitis and they're like, you may have to get surgery right away.
[02:11:05]  And they were like, good news.
[02:11:06]  It's a kidney stone.
[02:11:07]  And I was like, that sounds like terrible.
[02:11:09]  And it's like, well, we're not getting surgery.
[02:11:10]  It just means go home.
[02:11:11]  Well, now you know, Tim, what it's like to have a baby.
[02:11:13]  Oh, yeah, apparently.
[02:11:14]  That's apparently the equivalent pain.
[02:11:16]  Was it a viable stone, though?
[02:11:18]  Was it what?
[02:11:18]  Was it a viable stone?
[02:11:19]  Did you, like, keep it and raise it to be your own?
[02:11:22]  No.
[02:11:23]  But, uh, the point is...
[02:11:25]  All they did was give me painkillers and a diagnosis and then told me to leave.
[02:11:30]  And for that, it was like 40 grand.
[02:11:33]  And I'm like, no, no, no, wait a minute.
[02:11:35]  Like, I can understand.
[02:11:36]  But if that happened to you, by the way, in France or Germany, you know, like, or Italy.
[02:11:40]  It was like 20 bucks or something.
[02:11:42]  It could be free.
[02:11:43]  Yeah.
[02:11:44]  But so my question is, how did they drop it by 90%?
[02:11:46]  And they didn't give me an answer.
[02:11:48]  They're just like, oh, it's a discount.
[02:11:49]  And I'm like, What's going on?
[02:11:52]  Why are the costs this way?
[02:11:54]  Now, look, I know the left often says the insurance companies are corrupt and they're driving it, but I can tell you this.
[02:11:59]  They were trying to bill the insurance company $40,000, and then when they found out I didn't have insurance, they said, $4,000?

=== A Broken System Needs Dismantling (04:30) ===

[02:12:04]  Oh, no, no.
[02:12:05]  Corporate hospital chains are really bad, too.
[02:12:08]  They're all a part of a sick system that needs to be dismantled and nationalized.
[02:12:10]  I completely agree.
[02:12:11]  I guess the pun there, sick system.
[02:12:13]  That was not even intentional.
[02:12:14]  Yeah, the whole system's broken.
[02:12:16]  I don't think I have the absolute answers.
[02:12:18]  I don't know for sure.
[02:12:19]  I just think like, I see these stories.
[02:12:21]  There was a kid who was like 15, got the flu and died.
[02:12:23]  And I'm like, how does that happen?
[02:12:25]  The mom was like, I couldn't afford Tamiflu.
[02:12:26]  And I'm like, it's like $30.
[02:12:28]  There was a horrible story of that guy who was a diabetic and then he couldn't afford the 50 bucks for his insulin and he dies.
[02:12:34]  And I'm like, well, hold on.
[02:12:35]  I'll give him the money.
[02:12:36]  Like I can give him the money.
[02:12:38]  I will gladly.
[02:12:39]  So the challenge I suppose is, If we do increase taxes to pay for this, do we really trust the system to not be corrupt and just steal it?
[02:12:46]  Well, I do, because I think that there are models in Canada, in the UK, in Germany, in France.
[02:12:51]  Yeah, but the United States has prison systems the way it is with our tax money too, you know what I mean?
[02:12:54]  Like, if we can clean the corruption up, I'm on board for a lot.
[02:12:57]  I think that's the question.
[02:12:58]  Alright, well then there's something we can work on there, Tim.
[02:13:00]  Yeah, I think, like a lot of the conversations I have about taxes, people will be like, I oppose taxes because look what the government does with it.
[02:13:05]  And I'm like, so you oppose corruption.
[02:13:07]  You know what I mean?
[02:13:08]  Like if you were told that you were getting a really sweet deal at discount price, you wouldn't be complaining about it.
[02:13:12]  When you're told that they take your money and go blow up kids with it and then, you know, beat prisoners or whatever nonsense, I can understand why you're upset.
[02:13:18]  The concept of taxes doesn't bother me.
[02:13:20]  The concept of the government not being held accountable and corruption emerging from it bothers me.
[02:13:25]  And like our tax dollars, not even our tax dollars, but printing money and giving it to massive pharmaceutical companies or war, Then I'm just like now I can understand why you know someone can come out and say taxation is theft I disagree But I understand their point and I'm kind of just like you know It's really hard to argue against someone who says that when we know that a lot of evil people are stealing our money for evil things Like how do you how do you clean that up?
[02:13:46]  I think you clean that up and most people are gonna be fine with it Sure.
[02:13:49]  You know what I mean? - Sure. - If you were spending 50 bucks a month on Netflix and you knew that only 40 bucks was going to some random guy to go beat dogs, you'd be like, "I'm not gonna give Netflix any money anymore." - Well, how did those dogs look? - That's right.
[02:14:03]  It's like, are they foreign dogs?
[02:14:05]  You're like, yeah, so I take issues with that.
[02:14:07]  And I'm kind of like, you know, if you knew that you were contributing to a system that was using your money as efficiently as possible, you'd be like, "Okay, I'm getting some good from it Like, you know, a lot of people on the right, they don't want to defund the cops, right?
[02:14:20]  But the cops have a lot of broken issues within their systems that need to be fixed as well.
[02:14:24]  And I think just saying like the extremes of defund the police or just not don't really get to the problem of there's something wrong in the justice system as a whole.
[02:14:35]  Yeah, I would say I think societies are more comfortable with taxes when they have higher social trust, but I will say there is something to the fact beyond corruption that nobody's ever going to be as careful spending your money as you.
[02:14:50]  So like there is something that's just going to be inherently wasted when you transfer it to bureaucrats when it's not their money.
[02:14:57]  So here's the funny thing, we'll start to wrap it up.
[02:15:01]  I drank too much coffee, I gotta run to the restroom.
[02:15:05]  I'm not your buddy guy saying, why are we listening to three lefties debate politics?
[02:15:09]  Where is the right-wing representation?
[02:15:10]  Hey man, I don't know what show you're watching here.
[02:15:14]  So, but I think that's the, like, I guess the final thought I'll say on this is that I think for shows like yours, you exist on a political space where you assume everybody to your right is right-wing, even moderates and centrists and liberals.
[02:15:32]  I think I know some moderates and their politics are definitely to the left of yours.
[02:15:36]  And I have a lot of Republican friends, too, and I debate these issues with them on a regular basis.
[02:15:42]  So your politics is a lot closer to theirs, to be honest, based on what I've heard.
[02:15:47]  I mean, it's weird to say that conservatives would be... Tim, just prove me wrong.
[02:15:51]  We talk about socialized health care all the time on your show.
[02:15:53]  We do.
[02:15:54]  Well, I'll be looking for it now.
[02:15:56]  It's crazy, too, like the abortion thing.
[02:15:57]  We talk about a lot, like ad nauseum.
[02:16:00]  But it's weird because in this culture war, the tribal left, whatever you want to call them, I'm not saying all leftists, but the tribal commentary left is like... Like, I'll give you an example.
[02:16:10]  The Young Turks did a video where they called me ugly because I talked about attraction privilege, I think, I don't know how you call it, beauty privilege or whatever.

=== Conservatives, Attractiveness, and Worldviews (04:58) ===

[02:16:18]  And I was talking about how conservatives are more likely to be attractive because it's easier to go through life as an attractive person.
[02:16:24]  Thus, you're given benefits that you associate to your abilities instead of society, resulting in a conservative worldview.
[02:16:31]  And those who are less attractive have it harder, resulting in a collectivist worldview.
[02:16:35]  And instead of just like...
[02:16:37]  Telling me I was wrong?
[02:16:38]  They just called me ugly.
[02:16:39]  Well, I mean, do you have statistics to back up their concern?
[02:16:43]  But who decides who's ugly and who's unattractive?
[02:16:47]  So they did studies where they would show images of people to men and women and ask them to rate them on a scale of 1 to 10, then create a curve of attraction.
[02:16:56]  And those people that they showed pictures of, they had interviewed them on their political leanings and found a correlation between attraction and Political leaning, I'm sorry, beauty, perceived beauty and political leanings.
[02:17:06]  But this is like not even controversial among the left.
[02:17:08]  This is privilege, right?
[02:17:09]  Hey, if we're on the right side of things and we're uglier, I'm totally fine with that.
[02:17:14]  But so what happens is you go through life and you're ugly.
[02:17:17]  People are meaner to you.
[02:17:18]  They're less interested in you.
[02:17:19]  You have a harder time of things.
[02:17:21]  You're going to lean towards collectivist approaches to things like we need to work together to fix these problems.
[02:17:25]  But if you're attractive and people are nice to you all the time, it's like that 30 Rock episode, The Bubble.
[02:17:31]  where um i love 30 rock that was that guy's that john ham it's like everyone's super nice to him he thought he was really good at everything but he was just attractive and but like my point is not to talk about that my point is to just insult me instead of address the issue i disagree with the ad hominem but you know it's not me so well anyway i think we should wrap it up a little bit Do you guys want to say anything before we finish?
[02:17:54]  Well, it got a little heated, but I appreciate you having me on, Tim, for sure.
[02:17:57]  And I know you don't want to have Sam on, but I hope you reconsider.
[02:18:00]  I think it could be a good discussion.
[02:18:02]  Yeah, there's, I will say it with absolute conviction, there's a lot of people who have blacklisted that guy from various shows, and he knows it.
[02:18:13]  Yeah.
[02:18:14]  And he's talked about it.
[02:18:15]  He wears it like a badge of honor.
[02:18:17]  But he needs to stop saying it's because they're scared of him, it's because he's a dick.
[02:18:21]  I think he might be both.
[02:18:22]  It might be both.
[02:18:23]  No one's scared of him.
[02:18:25]  All right.
[02:18:27]  It's not my business to bring up other podcasts and networks in general, but I've even had people ask me, and I'm like, well, I don't know.
[02:18:35]  Look, man, we're willing to have people on the show, and then they'll highlight something he did, and they're like, that crossed the line.
[02:18:39]  And I'm like, all right.
[02:18:41]  Right.
[02:18:41]  Well, look, if it's about free-flowing debate, he's just a dick.
[02:18:44]  Didn't he say he was going to kill somebody?
[02:18:46]  I don't think so.
[02:18:47]  Was it Patrick David?
[02:18:48]  I have no idea.
[02:18:50]  I could be wrong about this, but I, uh, yeah, I probably should.
[02:18:53]  I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this.
[02:18:55]  Let me see if I can look it up.
[02:18:57]  That Sam was gonna kill somebody?
[02:19:00]  In a karate battle?
[02:19:01]  It was something like if he had, uh, if he had the right and he would hang the rich, he would hang Patrick, bet David or something like that.
[02:19:08]  Yeah, that was a joke.
[02:19:10]  All right, well, I don't know too much about it.
[02:19:11]  I can tell you it's like... He's sarcastic.
[02:19:14]  Jokes like that freak people out, I guess.
[02:19:18]  So you can call it a joke.
[02:19:19]  I think he was responding to something.
[02:19:21]  I can't.
[02:19:22]  Again, these are these are people who are not myself.
[02:19:24]  And I do 15 hours of new content on my program every day or every week.
[02:19:29]  So it's hard for me to keep track.
[02:19:30]  Right on.
[02:19:31]  Sean?
[02:19:31]  Oh yeah, so you can find me on YouTube at actualjusticewarrior, on Twitter at iamsean90.
[02:19:37]  And as for Sam Seder, I'm also a New Yorker.
[02:19:39]  I will not only go on his show in studio and debate him, I will also take him out to dinner, hang out with him, become his best friend, maybe even wear matching shirts and all of that.
[02:19:50]  So I am available.
[02:19:51]  I'm not afraid of Sam Seder.
[02:19:53]  So, you know, deliver the message.
[02:19:54]  Love it.
[02:19:55]  Well, I really do appreciate you coming.
[02:19:57]  Sure, sure.
[02:19:57]  It was great.
[02:19:58]  And Sean, thanks for joining in.
[02:20:00]  And we're trying to figure out how to do this properly.
[02:20:05]  You know, I think because of who I am, it's impossible for just to like me to sit back and have people have a conversation.
[02:20:11]  So I do want to apologize because you're definitely two against one, like both of us.
[02:20:15]  Although on the Ukraine thing, you guys definitely had me.
[02:20:17]  I don't know.
[02:20:17]  I'm like, I'm looking at these both of you.
[02:20:19]  I'm like, what's going on here?
[02:20:20]  So, uh, just for the- for future, for everybody, we'll try and make sure that it does not so, like, I felt like we were very two against one, it wasn't very fair, you know what I mean?
[02:20:28]  Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know.
[02:20:30]  At times.
[02:20:30]  I can handle it.
[02:20:32]  Right on.
[02:20:32]  Well, thanks for coming.
[02:20:33]  Thank you.
[02:20:33]  And for everybody who watched, thanks for watching and become a member at TimCast.com.
[02:20:39]  We have a lot of more shows like this ramping up next week, the week after that.
[02:20:44]  We're having a really, really big one in a couple of weeks.
[02:20:46]  We're getting some celebrities who are interested, and I'm really impressed and excited.
[02:20:49]  Yeah, am I sitting where Kanye sat?
[02:20:51]  - No, no, that's that one.
[02:20:52]  - Oh.
[02:20:53]  - So I'm just sitting where - Who's they? - You're sitting where Seamus.
[02:20:55]  - No, he sat there.
[02:20:56]  - Oh, yikes. - Who else was on that night?
[02:21:01]  Was it Luke?
[02:21:02]  Oh yeah, it was Luke.
[02:21:05]  Luke was sitting in that chair.
[02:21:06]  Anyway, we'll wrap it up.
[02:21:07]  Thanks so much for hanging out everybody.
[02:21:09]  I hope it was to you exactly what you thought it was going to be and now both the left and the right can make clips about who owned whom and when.