CSPAN - Washington Journal Washington Journal
Aired: 2026-05-09
Duration: 02:02:59


=== Economy Gains in Unlikely Sectors (14:50) ===

[00:00:00]  At the bottom of the newspaper, YMK, for probably pretty obvious reasons, didn't want to disclose that it was a woman.
[00:00:07]  But when it came to the declaration, she printed her whole name.
[00:00:10]  Printed by Mary Kay Goddard in Baltimore, Maryland.
[00:00:13]  Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch, Sunday night at 8 Eastern on C-SPAN's Q ⁇ A. You can listen to Q ⁇ A and all of our podcasts on our free C-SPAN Now app or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:00:28]  Joining us now to talk all things economy and the overall health in the nation is Navy Federal Credit Union Chief Economist Heather Long.
[00:00:38]  Heather, thanks so much for being with us this morning.
[00:00:41]  Yeah, good to be back.
[00:00:42]  Lots to discuss.
[00:00:43]  Lots to discuss indeed, including this April jobs report.
[00:00:46]  So the U.S. added 115,000 jobs and the unemployment rate stayed at 4.3%, obviously here outperforming expectations.
[00:00:58]  What's your assessment of Friday's report?
[00:01:03]  There was a lot to like in this report.
[00:01:05]  It's a good report overall.
[00:01:07]  It's not great, but it's pretty good.
[00:01:09]  And you mentioned the big numbers there, 115,000 jobs added.
[00:01:14]  That was double what was expected.
[00:01:16]  The other really encouraging news is it wasn't just health care jobs.
[00:01:21]  For most of the past year, our economy has been kind of a one-trick pony, mostly adding only health care jobs and staying flat or even downgrading and laying off in some other sectors.
[00:01:33]  But for the past several months, we've seen transportation and warehouse really pick up hiring.
[00:01:38]  And you don't see that unless people and companies are ordering things and need to ship them across the country.
[00:01:44]  We've seen a pickup in construction jobs.
[00:01:46]  We've seen some social assistance jobs, some hospitality, some retail.
[00:01:50]  There's still some struggle.
[00:01:52]  Manufacturing is definitely having a hard go.
[00:01:54]  And the tech sector with the AI build out, companies are spending their money on building data centers and not on hiring right now.
[00:02:03]  But the overall picture was pretty darn good in this report.
[00:02:10]  And there were also some pretty positive revisements from March.
[00:02:14]  That number was revised from 178,000 to 158,000.
[00:02:20]  Now February, I believe, was revised down a couple thousand.
[00:02:24]  But talk to us kind of about how the revisions work in this case.
[00:02:27]  Are those also positive?
[00:02:30]  Yeah, I mean, look, overall, what you just cited, it took off, you know, 15 or 16,000 jobs for the past several months.
[00:02:38]  But the way that I like to look at it is to step back and look at several months at a time.
[00:02:44]  And here's the stat that really jumped out at me.
[00:02:47]  Last year in 2025, a year that I called a hiring recession, we were averaging only 10,000 new jobs a month.
[00:02:57]  Basically none.
[00:02:58]  We basically had no job growth last year.
[00:03:01]  So far this year, even with the negative February month we had, we are averaging 76,000 jobs.
[00:03:10]  Now that's not huge.
[00:03:11]  It's still hard to get a job, but you can see the improvement that is starting to happen and the fact that more industries are hiring.
[00:03:19]  And as you pointed out, the 4.3% unemployment rate, we've basically been sitting between 4.3 and 4.5% unemployment for the past year.
[00:03:28]  And it's a good sign to be closer to the lower end of that range.
[00:03:32]  Is there a reason that you see why job hiring has picked up?
[00:03:38]  I mean, I know we talked about it.
[00:03:39]  They're not just gains happening in the healthcare sector, although there are a lot of gains happening in the healthcare sector.
[00:03:45]  But why do you attribute more jobs being available to more people?
[00:03:50]  Well, a couple of things I think are going on.
[00:03:53]  Number one, the economy's been hit by a lot of headwinds in the past year with the tariffs and now the war in Iran.
[00:03:59]  But the reality in the economy right now is AI, the AI boom, and the data center build out, it's just dwarfing everything else.
[00:04:10]  It's huge.
[00:04:11]  It's the reason the stock market's at a record high.
[00:04:13]  And it's the reason you're seeing sectors like transportation and warehouse and construction pick up a little bit because there's simply a need to transport all those materials across the country to build those data centers.
[00:04:26]  I think that's a good bit of what's going on there.
[00:04:29]  And then I think the reality is I've called it a K-shaped economy for a long time now, with the top 20% doing really well.
[00:04:37]  Basically, Americans earning $150,000 or more a year are still spending.
[00:04:42]  And I think that's why you see the hospitality sector and the retail sector picking up a little bit here because wealthier Americans are doing great.
[00:04:52]  I'm looking at an article from the street here that shows that according to the ADP, private sector jobs in April increased by about $109,000.
[00:05:01]  Annual pay is up by 4.4%.
[00:05:04]  That's a significant increase.
[00:05:07]  Is what you just said that the rich are doing very well right now.
[00:05:11]  Is that what you would contribute to the growth we're seeing in the private sector too?
[00:05:16]  Definitely.
[00:05:16]  I mean, that's really playing into the vacation, some vacation hotspots doing well, the fact that a lot of conferences have bounced back.
[00:05:25]  So that's your hospitality and retail sector.
[00:05:28]  And frankly, people are still ordering a lot online, and that's helping fuel the transportation and warehouse growth.
[00:05:37]  The other important point that I would make, and it kind of goes with what you were just saying on that ADP report, the big Achilles heel in the economy right now is what we're all seeing when we drive by and go to the gas station every couple of days.
[00:05:52]  And that is that wage growth, so what people are getting paid, is up about 3.6% in the past year.
[00:06:02]  Not too bad, but it is cooler than what we saw in recent years.
[00:06:06]  But the big butt here is with the surging gas prices, inflation, we're going to get the reading on Tuesday, the latest reading for April, and we anticipate that will be close to 4%.
[00:06:18]  In other words, the cost of living and the inflation is now eating up all of the wage gains for a typical worker.
[00:06:27]  And that's the squeeze that so many people feel right now, particularly in the middle class and modern income families.
[00:06:34]  Their pay is no longer keeping up with the cost of living.
[00:06:39]  I want to ask you more about the impact of the Iran war on both the labor market and these inflation numbers that you just cited.
[00:06:45]  But first, I want to invite our viewers to join in on the conversation.
[00:06:49]  Heather Long is here, an expert.
[00:06:51]  You can ask her anything about the economy.
[00:06:53]  Democrats, your line, 202-748-8000.
[00:06:57]  Republicans, your line is 202-748-8001.
[00:07:02]  Independents, your line, 202-748-8002.
[00:07:06]  And you can also reach us by text message at 202-748-8003.
[00:07:11]  Start calling in now to get in your questions.
[00:07:13]  So you mentioned a little bit about how wages is being eaten up by inflation.
[00:07:19]  I want to ask you a little bit more about that in a second.
[00:07:21]  But can you just talk more broadly about how the Iran war is impacting the labor market?
[00:07:30]  It's a really interesting question.
[00:07:33]  And I'm somewhat surprised to say we're not seeing a lot of impact yet.
[00:07:38]  You know, obviously the April numbers we've just been running through are pretty strong.
[00:07:43]  The areas where there was weakness in the April jobs report were things like the manufacturing sector, which has been struggling for several years and struggling, especially in the past year since the tariffs went on.
[00:07:55]  Same thing with the tech sector.
[00:07:56]  The tech sector was one of the early ones to start doing layoffs in 2023 and 2024.
[00:08:02]  And now we're still seeing some layoffs in that sector.
[00:08:06]  So these are not things that you can easily pin on the war in Iran.
[00:08:10]  If anything, it's more of an AI story than a war in Iran story.
[00:08:14]  The one thing that may be a symbol of the war in Iran, although I think it's hard to make a direct link, there was a big jump in April in people who could only find part-time jobs.
[00:08:25]  You know, they want full-time work, full hours, and they were only able to find a part-time role.
[00:08:31]  You know, that may indicate some hesitation for companies to bring on that full-time worker.
[00:08:37]  I'll get back to Iran in a second, but I just wonder: has the flow or the lower flow or the reduced flow rather of immigration affected these job numbers that we're seeing today?
[00:08:47]  Yeah, it's been a huge impact.
[00:08:49]  One of the key reasons that the unemployment rate remains pretty low in we've basically been in this, I called it a hiring recession last year.
[00:08:58]  A lot of people called it a no-hire, no-fire situation is that companies aren't hiring, but at the same time, the labor supply has been dwindling.
[00:09:08]  And that's because we've had for the first time in 50 years negative net migration in the United States, more people leaving than coming to this country, so fewer immigrant workers who are in the economy.
[00:09:20]  And also, don't forget, baby boomers continue to retire.
[00:09:24]  And so those two forces are really reshaping the labor force right now.
[00:09:30]  And as a matter of fact, many economists, myself included, think that we only need to be adding about 30 to 50,000 jobs a month in order to keep things at a steady state, to keep the unemployment rate around 4.3%.
[00:09:44]  And that's just mind-boggling.
[00:09:46]  You know, I grew up in the world where it was routine to see 150,000 or 200,000 jobs added a month.
[00:09:54]  Just a couple of years ago in the rebound from the pandemic, we'd have a lot of months with 300,000 jobs added.
[00:09:59]  So you see these small numbers and it feels like almost recessionary, but the reason it's not is because of that shrinking labor supply.
[00:10:09]  Now getting back to inflation and wages, you posted on Twitter yesterday when reviewing some of these numbers an interesting graph.
[00:10:19]  I want folks to see it on the screen here.
[00:10:22]  It shows obviously CPI inflation up at 4% with wage growth below it at 3.6%.
[00:10:29]  Can you talk about what that practically means for people day in, day out, who are seeing gas prices go up, who are seeing higher prices at the grocery store, farmers seeing higher prices when they try to buy fertilizer?
[00:10:42]  What does that kind of influx mean there?
[00:10:46]  Yeah, I mean, it's a real financial squeeze.
[00:10:49]  Often I hear people say, well, people just feel bad.
[00:10:52]  The vibes are bad about the economy.
[00:10:54]  What this chart is showing is it's not just in people's heads.
[00:10:57]  I mean, there is a legitimate financial squeeze going on right now with inflation coming back towards 4%, mainly driven by the gas prices.
[00:11:07]  I believe the only state with gas under $4 right now is Oklahoma.
[00:11:11]  And even they've seen a pretty big jump.
[00:11:14]  And so people are feeling it.
[00:11:15]  It's feeding through to transportation costs and certainly air and fare costs.
[00:11:20]  And so people are having to pay more right now.
[00:11:23]  And unfortunately, wage growth right now is not keeping up.
[00:11:27]  And this really, we haven't seen this in three years.
[00:11:30]  I used to show that chart in a positive way because people didn't realize that wage gains were above inflation for the past three years.
[00:11:38]  And it was helping people to recover from some of these big price spikes.
[00:11:42]  But the war in Iran really changed that game.
[00:11:46]  And we can see in our data at Navy Federal Credit Union that moderate income families, folks who spend about $1,000 a month or less, and that's a lot of America, those folks are having to pull back right now.
[00:11:58]  They cannot keep up with these higher gas prices.
[00:12:01]  They are pulling back on spending, particularly at restaurants and in some cases on health care or on even groceries.
[00:12:10]  Now, my last question here before we turn to some phone calls, Heather, the president heads to China next week, perhaps to clinch a trade deal with President Xi Jinping.
[00:12:20]  But here, just talking about tariffs, something that's been a major policy of his part of his agenda when it comes to the economy, I'm looking at an independent article.
[00:12:29]  It says, Trump's tariffs have done significant damage to the U.S. economy.
[00:12:34]  Top financial group warns.
[00:12:37]  What impact have you seen from tariffs?
[00:12:40]  What impact has that had on the economy?
[00:12:43]  Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting discussion to be having.
[00:12:46]  Obviously, almost exactly a year ago, we had the announcement of Liberation Day.
[00:12:50]  We had the first tariffs, the bigger tariffs going into place.
[00:12:54]  And so we've had a year of these tariffs now.
[00:12:56]  And the early evidence is pretty clear.
[00:12:59]  It was a major reason that hiring stopped last year across many industries.
[00:13:04]  And then industries like manufacturing actually did some layoffs.
[00:13:08]  And in particular, what we learned last year is a lot of small businesses just got pounded by these tariffs.
[00:13:14]  Not only was it more expensive to import things, you know, but if you're a small business, you don't have a supply chain expert on your staff.
[00:13:23]  And so it was really telling that small firms were the ones that just stopped hiring completely last year.
[00:13:30]  We've seen a little bit better this year so far, but it's still tough there.
[00:13:34]  And then the other key sector for tariffs has been inflation.
[00:13:39]  And at Navy Federal Credit Union, we have a cost of car ownership index.
[00:13:44]  So it's not just buying a car.
[00:13:46]  You also have to maintain it.
[00:13:48]  And in addition to gas prices going up, we've seen the tariff impact on auto parts and a lot of these components that people need, whether it's for a car, whether it's for an appliance and whatnot, all of that has really jumped in price in the last year.
[00:14:04]  And we've seen a big surge in goods inflation, which is pretty rare without a tariff impact.
[00:14:12]  All right, let's turn to some phone calls.
[00:14:14]  Bob from Idaho, a Republican.
[00:14:17]  Good morning.
[00:14:18]  Good morning, Bob.
[00:14:20]  Yes.
[00:14:21]  Hi, I'm here in Lawmead, Idaho-Wyoming border.
[00:14:25]  I have a brief comment.
[00:14:28]  Would we say that the tariffs and the war in Iran, you speak to it as if it's almost like it rained today or it's sunny?
[00:14:41]  This is caused by Trump's war in Iran, and the tariffs are causing it.

=== Part-Time Work Surge Explained (15:24) ===

[00:14:50]  This is not a natural phenomenon.
[00:14:53]  So always address it as Trump's war, please.
[00:14:57]  And this is what's driving our economy today.
[00:15:03]  So that's all.
[00:15:05]  I just wanted to point that out.
[00:15:09]  All right, let's turn to Patricia from D.C., a Democrat.
[00:15:13]  Good morning, Patricia.
[00:15:15]  Hi, good morning.
[00:15:17]  And I have a Navy federal account.
[00:15:20]  I was calling basically to state that even though there was job growth for this month, as you mentioned, it's in unlikely sectors where the growth has occurred.
[00:15:35]  It's due to, as you stated, warehouses, which unfortunately, those warehouses are used as detention centers.
[00:15:45]  We do see that there's a big growth in the government purchasing these large warehouses.
[00:15:51]  And to me, I feel like they're going to be used for nefarious things, as well as for unwanted data centers.
[00:15:59]  Those are popping up everywhere in most communities, and the citizens do not want them.
[00:16:06]  And, you know, it's very unfortunate that from the federal government, over 300,000 black women have lost their jobs.
[00:16:16]  So yes, there is growth in certain areas, but a sharp decline in others.
[00:16:22]  I work in the health care sector, and a lot of health care workers are being laid off, especially nurses and other specialties where they're needed.
[00:16:33]  So yes, there is growth, but not in the areas where it's currently needed the most.
[00:16:40]  And unfortunately, I have a 21-year-old daughter.
[00:16:44]  I see the outcome for a lot of the youth is very bleak.
[00:16:49]  You know, we try to encourage them to go to school and get an education, but then they're saddled with all of the student loan debt.
[00:16:57]  I think we need to concentrate more on trade schools, like back in the day.
[00:17:03]  And a lot of these kids, there's a need out here for electrician, plumbers, and things like that.
[00:17:09]  So we need to open up more areas for kids to learn a trade and learn a skill.
[00:17:16]  So all we can do is like pray for all youth because Patricia, let me jump in here so Heather can respond to that because you gave her a couple of different things.
[00:17:27]  Yeah, Patricia made so many good points there.
[00:17:29]  I'll try to reiterate a couple that I think are really important.
[00:17:33]  Number one, she's right that a lot of the area is still struggling in the economy, and you can even see it in this April jobs report.
[00:17:41]  It's important to point out that the black unemployment rate is up almost a percent percentage point from a year ago.
[00:17:48]  It's over 7%.
[00:17:50]  Also, she mentioned her child who's 21, who's looking for a job.
[00:17:54]  It's very clear that the unemployment rate for people in their teenage years and their early 20s is very elevated right now.
[00:18:02]  It's still a struggle for certain workers in this economy.
[00:18:07]  And that's my hope is that things will continue to improve.
[00:18:10]  I do think the class of 2026 is going to have it a lot easier than the class of 2025 graduates did a year ago in terms of the job hunt.
[00:18:19]  But we're not out of the woods yet and there's still some signs of pain.
[00:18:23]  The other big point that she was getting at is just how much change we're experiencing in the economy right now, particularly from a number of factors, obviously bringing up detention centers and policy choices that are being made by the White House in the last two calls, but also by the AI boom.
[00:18:42]  And the AI boom brings some great, wonderful things that makes life more efficient and hopefully has more discoveries for health treatments and whatnot.
[00:18:52]  But it also has some really concerning sides.
[00:18:57]  And I know people are worried about mass job loss and job transitions.
[00:19:02]  We need to be better prepared for that.
[00:19:04]  It's very frustrating not to see action to kind of build that muscle again in the United States of what Patricia was talking about, of doing apprenticeships, not just for electricians, but we could have paid apprenticeships in almost every field in the United States.
[00:19:20]  That's what many other countries do, so that young people, while they get the on-the-job training, are also getting paid.
[00:19:28]  They're not maybe getting paid a ton, but it's better than going into debt.
[00:19:32]  It's what many young people want.
[00:19:35]  I wonder if you could respond to this, Heather.
[00:19:36]  We got a note from MLB on Twitter who says job numbers are frequently perceived as, quote, false or misleading due to standard survey limitations, routine statistical revisions, and differing political interpretations.
[00:19:50]  Note that the job numbers are based on political interpretations, not facts.
[00:19:55]  I wonder what you would say to that.
[00:19:58]  Yeah, it's a great question.
[00:19:59]  It comes up a lot.
[00:20:00]  I've even had family members text me, are you sure you can trust these numbers?
[00:20:04]  And here's my honest response that I give to my family and I would give to you who's writing in there.
[00:20:11]  And that is this.
[00:20:12]  I do still trust the numbers.
[00:20:14]  That said, a lot has changed in the last few years.
[00:20:18]  The jobs data comes from a survey of literally going to tens of thousands of households and asking people in the household if they're employed.
[00:20:27]  The other thing they do every month is they survey over 100,000 businesses.
[00:20:32]  And when you see the number, like 115,000 jobs added, that's coming from that survey of businesses or establishments, as it's called.
[00:20:40]  And those people have to respond.
[00:20:42]  And I don't know about you, but I don't always respond on the first time when somebody emails me.
[00:20:47]  Sometimes I forget.
[00:20:48]  Sometimes life gets busy.
[00:20:50]  And unfortunately, that's happening a lot.
[00:20:52]  And the survey response time, particularly in the first few weeks, has really gone down.
[00:20:59]  It used to be quite high, over 70, 80%.
[00:21:02]  Now it's more like 40 to 50%.
[00:21:05]  And that's what's causing a lot of these revisions that feels like, oh, they're making up the numbers or I can't trust the numbers.
[00:21:12]  No, it's just that they're getting better and better data as we get to the two and three month later point.
[00:21:19]  And one of the debates going forward is should they delay and not release the data until maybe three months later when they have a more complete picture and a better response rate.
[00:21:30]  But of course, we all want to know what's the impact in April from the war in Iran.
[00:21:35]  We want that first look.
[00:21:36]  So it's a little bit of a tricky moment right now.
[00:21:39]  And the main point, though, is it's not that people are fiddling with the numbers.
[00:21:43]  It's simply a reflection of trying to get those response rates up.
[00:21:47]  And by and large, I think they're doing the best they can with the current funding that they have.
[00:21:54]  Another question from X here is that if a worker pieces together three separate part-time jobs at different businesses to survive, the payroll survey logs it as three new jobs created.
[00:22:07]  So maybe it's because we need two or three jobs right now to make ends meet.
[00:22:11]  I guess talking about that new jobs report.
[00:22:15]  Yeah, I mean, this is another really good point that comes up a lot.
[00:22:20]  So it's interesting.
[00:22:21]  Generally, people get multiple jobs, believe it or not, when the economy is doing a little better, because it's hard to find any job, whether it's part-time or full-time, when the economy is not.
[00:22:33]  That said, as I mentioned earlier, the April report did show a big jump in people who could only find part-time work instead of full-time work, which may indicate more people doing what this commenter is saying, that they're having to piece together 20 hours here, 20 hours there.
[00:22:49]  It's something worth watching.
[00:22:51]  I will say the idea that everyone is in this situation is not entirely correct.
[00:22:57]  In the past several years, the percent of workers who are working multiple jobs, whether it's two jobs or three jobs or more, has stayed pretty steady in the sort of 6 to 6.5% range.
[00:23:12]  So again, there's definitely a subset of workers who are having to do that to make ends meet.
[00:23:17]  But to sort of characterize it, that everyone's doing it, or even that half of America or a quarter of America is doing this is not fully accurate.
[00:23:27]  Kristen from Sterling Heights, Michigan, a Republican?
[00:23:31]  Go ahead.
[00:23:32]  Hello.
[00:23:32]  Hi.
[00:23:33]  Hello.
[00:23:34]  My name is Kristen.
[00:23:35]  I'd like to say, first of all, say thank you to the Trump family and the administration of the political party for all the hard work and effort that they have put forth in the United States of America.
[00:23:44]  Secondly, I'd like to address the employment.
[00:23:47]  I'm glad that it is going up.
[00:23:48]  That is correct.
[00:23:49]  I am working on my second job.
[00:23:51]  Thirdly, I'd like to say that I would like to see the states addressed, such as Michigan.
[00:23:56]  We have an issue with abuse of power.
[00:23:58]  Article 4, Amendment 4, Article 25.
[00:24:03]  We have a problem with our judges and a problem with they are getting involved in human trafficking drug laws.
[00:24:10]  Hey, Kristen, we have Heather Long here who specializes in the economy.
[00:24:13]  I know you talked about the economy at the top of your comments, but I wonder if you have a question for her.
[00:24:18]  If not, we have an open forum after this, but go ahead.
[00:24:21]  It does affect the economy.
[00:24:23]  When the people in power are getting involved in corruption, that affects our children and our social economics.
[00:24:34]  Do you have a response there, Heather?
[00:24:37]  As you note, I'm an economic expert, not an illegal or a political one.
[00:24:41]  But I will say when I listened to that call, one of my first thoughts is the data we got this week from the University of Michigan Survey of Consumers.
[00:24:51]  Now, they survey nationally, not just in Michigan, but it showed an all-time low in consumer sentiment in America.
[00:24:59]  And this survey goes back to the 1950s.
[00:25:04]  And so to see the lowest of all time in that survey, lower than the Great Recession, lower than the 70s stagflation, I think it goes to a little bit of what that caller was talking about, that the mood in America is pretty gloomy right now.
[00:25:22]  And that's a number of factors, whether it's the political situation going on, the war in Iran, and the high gas prices, the years we've had of inflation struggles and affordability struggles.
[00:25:32]  And it just speaks to that undercurrent that people are frustrated with a lot of what they're seeing right now.
[00:25:42]  Larry from Crandon, Wisconsin, and Independent.
[00:25:45]  Good morning, Larry.
[00:25:47]  Morning.
[00:25:49]  All right, you're on with Heather Long.
[00:25:53]  Yes, this is Larry Campbell from Crandon, Wisconsin.
[00:25:56]  Marine Corps veterans from Vietnam.
[00:26:02]  People don't understand that the bottom one-third of the population can't afford things.
[00:26:18]  And I think it's all based on political ideology that they just don't understand the real people in this country.
[00:26:33]  Heather, do you have a response to that?
[00:26:37]  I agree.
[00:26:38]  I mean, it makes me very nervous that I think it's not just the bottom third.
[00:26:43]  I mean, if you look, when I started talking about the K-shape economy last summer, you know, at first, some other economists sort of said, what are you talking about?
[00:26:50]  That's not real.
[00:26:52]  And it's interesting.
[00:26:53]  So many real Americans got it right away.
[00:26:56]  And frankly, corporate CEOs did too.
[00:26:58]  And this is what worries me is we know that the bottom third is struggling, but frankly, a lot of middle-class families are too right now.
[00:27:07]  And what we've seen from a lot of corporate America is this shift towards making their products and their brands to try to attract more high-income consumers.
[00:27:19]  You know, these platinum credit cards that you have to pay $800 or $1,000 a year just to get these exclusive experiences that you look at an airplane and how much they're pushing the economy seats, scrunching them way back in the back, meanwhile, to make more room for these big lie-down business class seats.
[00:27:37]  I mean, that sort of K-shaped economy where catering to the top 20% or even the top 10% is just evident almost everywhere you go now.
[00:27:46]  Even places like Walmart seem to be shifting more upmarket if they can.
[00:27:51]  And, you know, who is thinking about, just like this caller says, all the struggles for families right now and households towards not just the bottom, but really, you know, $100,000 or less is a pretty tough go right now in the United States.
[00:28:08]  Now, outgoing Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, he weighed in on the health of the U.S. economy.
[00:28:14]  Let's take a listen to what he had to say.
[00:28:16]  How would you describe the economy outside of the misbehaving inflation?
[00:28:21]  I mean, it's still awfully resilient given all of the blows.
[00:28:27]  I don't know that you can be awfully resilient.
[00:28:29]  So it's actually quite resilient, I would say, because it's a positive thing if I can have that amendment.
[00:28:34]  Yeah, growth is really solid across our economy.
[00:28:38]  Some of that is that consumer spending is hanging in pretty well.
[00:28:43]  The most recent data are good.
[00:28:45]  And some of it is just the apparently insatiable demand for data centers all over the United States.
[00:28:50]  So a lot of business investment going into building data centers and every reason to think that that continues.
[00:28:56]  So you've got an economy that's growing at 2% or better.
[00:29:00]  PDFP, which is private domestic final purchases, which is really a better signal of momentum in the economy, is actually higher than that.
[00:29:08]  So that's a positive thing.
[00:29:12]  So that was Chairman Powell in his final press briefing as Federal Reserve Chair, though he says he's going to stay on as governor.
[00:29:19]  I wonder though, Heather, if that positive trend in the job market continues, is there a stronger argument for cutting rates?
[00:29:29]  No, it will be a weaker argument for cutting rates.
[00:29:33]  As you'll remember, the reason that they cut the interest rate three times last year was because they were worried.
[00:29:40]  They were worried about that hiring recession.
[00:29:42]  They were worried about why companies were not optimistic enough to hire anyone last year outside of health care.
[00:29:49]  And so that's why they cut those interest rates.
[00:29:51]  And you're right, if we continue to see some improvement, I'd call it that we're stabilizing right now in the labor market.
[00:29:59]  And you got to stabilize the patient before they can focus on recovering and getting stronger again.
[00:30:05]  But if we continue to get stronger in the labor market, they probably won't cut rates at all this year.

=== Blame for Hiring Recession (03:32) ===

[00:30:14]  And they shouldn't, right?
[00:30:15]  The main problem right now in the economy is what we're all experiencing when we go to the store and we go to the gas station, and that is inflation is the big issue.
[00:30:26]  And that's what they need to be focused on.
[00:30:27]  The real question actually is: are they going to have to raise interest rates this year?
[00:30:34]  I think the bar is very high to raise again, but they certainly want Wall Street and the rest of America to know that they will raise interest rates again if inflation does not come down.
[00:30:49]  Jeff from Arizona, a Democrat.
[00:30:52]  You're next, Jeff.
[00:30:53]  Yes, thank you for taking my call.
[00:30:56]  I'm kind of glad that Jerome Powell has really resisted the political pressure that has been placed on him by the Trump administration to cut rates because Trump is only right now only concerned about the midterm election.
[00:31:09]  He wants something to brag about going into that midterm election.
[00:31:13]  But he made a big mistake because I want to talk about inflation.
[00:31:19]  Both sides are always trying to blame each other for the rise in prices.
[00:31:25]  But this is one thing people need to understand.
[00:31:28]  And a lot of people in this country don't understand the plain theory of micro and macroeconomics.
[00:31:38]  Back in 2022, When the inflation spike went up, that was because the Biden administration inherited COVID and Russia invaded Ukraine, which caused oil prices to spike to $120 a barrel.
[00:31:57]  The Biden administration had nothing to do with that.
[00:32:01]  That was just something they had to inherit.
[00:32:03]  Then when this thing happens, it is now coming on the Fed to jump in and do something.
[00:32:10]  And a lot of people said that the Fed was late in reacting.
[00:32:14]  Now let's go back, let's go to today.
[00:32:17]  Prices are up.
[00:32:18]  Gas prices are up.
[00:32:20]  Grocery prices are up.
[00:32:22]  This is Trump's fault.
[00:32:23]  He the one decided to attack Iran.
[00:32:26]  The prices going up is a direct response of that.
[00:32:29]  Now, all the MAGA people who are trying to say Trump's not responsible for this, I don't know what they're looking at.
[00:32:35]  It seems like they don't have the grasp of what micro and macroeconomic policy is.
[00:32:42]  All right, Jeff, let's have Heather jump in on this.
[00:32:45]  You have a response.
[00:32:46]  Yeah, I mean, it's a great point.
[00:32:47]  Where's the inflation coming from?
[00:32:49]  Why is it happening?
[00:32:50]  You know, I broadly agree that the inflation spike of the summer of 2022, when gas prices hit $5, was driven by the war, the Russia's invasion in Ukraine.
[00:33:01]  But I would also say, obviously, the COVID supply chain glitches were a huge part of that inflation spike.
[00:33:08]  But I think it's fair to also say the extra stimulus package that the Biden White House championed did factor into that inflation spike.
[00:33:18]  People will debate, you know, who should get more blame, but I think you have to at least put that as one factor there.
[00:33:25]  But it's very clear that what's going on right now with the gas prices is directly an impact of President Trump's policy choices with the war in Iran.
[00:33:35]  And you can see that voters, you know, you can see it in the polling data and the voter frustration even among Republicans, some Republicans with what's going on in economic policy right now.

=== Inflation Hits Seniors Hard (11:24) ===

[00:33:47]  Mary from Palm Desert, California, Republican.
[00:33:50]  You're next.
[00:33:50]  Good morning, Mary.
[00:33:52]  Good morning, Jasmine and Heather.
[00:33:54]  So I hope you give me enough time.
[00:33:56]  I don't think that guy even had a question before me.
[00:33:59]  But anyway, I have two.
[00:34:01]  First one, Heather, is, you know, we told people to work without pay twice in the last six months for almost over a month.
[00:34:12]  I'm thinking about 100 to 200,000 people.
[00:34:17]  Did that affect your data in the last six months?
[00:34:20]  And my second question is, you know, you said the worst time was 2025 for young people.
[00:34:26]  Well, no, it was 2020 when our economy was shut down and people were told to stay home and they had no jobs and everything costed way more.
[00:34:38]  So also that factored into back then the employment rate, right?
[00:34:45]  But I really think those kids since 2020, and there's a lot of them that graduated college in our country, have struggled since then.
[00:34:54]  And I have one of them.
[00:34:56]  And my third comment is, I graduated 1984, University of Minnesota, RN, BSN.
[00:35:04]  My first job, $9.75 an hour.
[00:35:09]  We are pleased to offer you that.
[00:35:11]  1984.
[00:35:12]  I was ecstatic.
[00:35:14]  Anyway, I just retired.
[00:35:17]  Thank you.
[00:35:21]  Well, congratulations on your retirement and thank you for all you've done in the healthcare field.
[00:35:27]  And I hope many young people are watching and want to follow in your footsteps.
[00:35:31]  It's obviously a growing field with a lot of opportunity.
[00:35:35]  You're right.
[00:35:35]  Let me just clarify what I meant by the class of 2026 has it better than the class of 2025 wasn't that the 2025 situation is the worst of all time or anything like that, but that you know, just relatively speaking, things look a little better for 2026.
[00:35:50]  Obviously, she makes an excellent point that the class of 2020 and really anyone who was in high school or school or college during 2020 and having to study from home had a really, really rough experience socially, education-wise, and financially.
[00:36:08]  And I think we've all revised our views a lot on what happened in that period for education.
[00:36:14]  But I will also point out that another generation that has really struggled when we talk about the impacts of young people and trying to get a foothold on the career ladder are the millennials and the people who graduated into the Great Recession, into those years of 2009, 2010, 2011.
[00:36:32]  Sometimes when I hear young people today say, oh, you know, the unemployment rate is so high for college graduates, I'm never going to get a job.
[00:36:40]  I say, call up your friends who are graduated in 2009 and 2010 and 2011 because the unemployment rate for young people was higher, much higher then than it is now.
[00:36:51]  And she's unfortunately right that a lot of those 2009, 2010, 2011 graduates, while they were ultimately able to get into the workforce and get jobs a little bit more delayed, their generally speaking career wages have not been as strong as other, you know, as other graduating classes.
[00:37:10]  Ruben from Somerville, New Jersey, and Independent.
[00:37:14]  Good morning, Ruben.
[00:37:16]  Good morning, ladies.
[00:37:17]  Yeah, last time I called, Heather was a guest, and Jasmine, you were the host.
[00:37:21]  And I asked a question about Jerome Powell.
[00:37:24]  So I'm just pleased as punch to get on the show today.
[00:37:28]  How fun.
[00:37:30]  I still remember you, Kyle.
[00:37:33]  But I had two items to comment on.
[00:37:37]  One is when we talk about purchasing power, when we talk about inflation, primarily you hear, and Heather reflected back to this earlier, about workers' purchasing power.
[00:37:49]  I just wanted to bring up that number of elderly, a number of seniors are on Social Security.
[00:37:58]  And I kind of looked this stat up, roughly 40% of them, 22 million.
[00:38:04]  Social Security is their sole source of income.
[00:38:07]  They don't have a pension or 401k or what have you.
[00:38:11]  And the COLA in 2026 was 2.8%.
[00:38:15]  So when we're talking about 3% or 3.5% inflation, it's really impacting them a lot.
[00:38:23]  And so I just wanted to bring that up.
[00:38:24]  And I really don't hear any of the White House economists or anyone on CNBC or Fox Business bringing that item up.
[00:38:34]  And the second one I wanted to talk about is tariffs and its impact on manufacturing.
[00:38:41]  The jobs report showed that 5,000 jobs were forecast, 2,000 manufacturing jobs.
[00:38:50]  2,000 were lost, so they missed by 7,000.
[00:38:54]  And tariffs were supposed to fix that.
[00:38:57]  So we know tariffs are not working as intended with regard to manufacturing jobs.
[00:39:03]  My question to Heather would be: I haven't heard anyone talk about subsidies.
[00:39:09]  So subsidies are another way to protect your industries in the country.
[00:39:16]  So with those two items about inflation on seniors and manufacturing jobs, I'll just sit back and listen for an answer.
[00:39:29]  Yeah, those are great points.
[00:39:30]  It does come up a lot, seniors.
[00:39:32]  I mean, honestly, there's a K-shaped economy for seniors right now, too.
[00:39:36]  And what I mean by that is what you hear on CNBC and what you hear in a lot of corporate boardrooms is this fixation on the fact that retirees, some baby boomers in the United States have record levels of wealth.
[00:39:51]  You know, they've saved up, some of them have saved up money or have these pensions or have earned a lot in their 401ks over the year.
[00:39:58]  And so they're sitting on these massive cash piles.
[00:40:01]  But that's not everyone, as this caller rightly points out.
[00:40:04]  You know, it's about the top 20% of your seniors who are able to go on trips around the world and spend lavishly on their grandkids.
[00:40:14]  On the flip side, there's, as this caller points out, a lot of people who are totally reliant on Social Security.
[00:40:21]  And I think often the belief in Washington, D.C. is that it'll be fine because Social Security does adjust every year with that cost of living adjustment.
[00:40:32]  But this is a great example this year.
[00:40:34]  And similarly, what we saw back in 2022, where that cost of living adjustment only adjusts once a year.
[00:40:41]  And obviously the costs have really shot up this spring.
[00:40:45]  And that 2.6% cost of living adjustment for 2026 now looks woefully inadequate.
[00:40:53]  And so it's a real problem.
[00:40:55]  I don't know how it can be fixed.
[00:40:57]  I mean, there's obviously things they could try to adjust it more over time.
[00:41:01]  Or frankly, if we didn't have the war in Iran, probably these cost pressures wouldn't be as high.
[00:41:08]  But I'll just throw out one more that often does not get factored into these cost of living adjustments and that we've really noticed in our data at Navy Federal Credit Union.
[00:41:16]  And that is the big surge in insurance costs and in property taxes.
[00:41:22]  So even for people who've paid off a home and they've retired and they were supposed to be set, we have seen a huge increase in the past several years in tax and insurance for properties and for cars.
[00:41:38]  And it's really been a lot of struggle for people who were not planning to see a 30 to 50 percent surge in the last five years in those payments.
[00:41:48]  Something else I want to ask you about, Heather, here before we end our conversation is the U.S. debt.
[00:41:54]  The U.S. debt surpassed GDP.
[00:41:58]  How did we get here?
[00:41:59]  And are you surprised that you're not hearing more about it from Washington?
[00:42:04]  Well, you may not be hearing about it from Washington, but you are hearing about it from the markets.
[00:42:09]  One of the big things that happened this week on Monday is the 30-year bond yield topped 5% for the first time in about a year.
[00:42:19]  And that was a very clear sign of Wall Street and these bond investors saying, I don't like this picture.
[00:42:25]  You know, that they see this inflation surge going on.
[00:42:29]  And at the same time, they see exactly that latest data that you were looking at about the U.S. debt.
[00:42:35]  We know it's on an unsustainable path.
[00:42:38]  We know there's going to have to be tough decisions probably around 2032 or 2033 when Social Security payments start getting reduced, which is going to only exacerbate what we were talking about earlier with that prior caller.
[00:42:51]  And so, you know, what I would say from an economic perspective is this, you know, this heavy debt load that the United States has, which has been caused mainly in the past 25 years by tax cuts upon tax cuts, and on top of that, by wars, wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
[00:43:11]  And now we got more wars.
[00:43:13]  And, you know, these have not been sustainable for the budget.
[00:43:18]  And on top of that, we've got the retiring baby boomers, which we knew was coming, and we didn't prepare well for it.
[00:43:25]  And so, yeah, surprise, we're in a budget crunch and nobody wants to fix it.
[00:43:30]  But the bond market, this is, I wrote an essay last year.
[00:43:33]  The bond market is now king.
[00:43:35]  You know, when the bond market reacts, the White House is being forced to change some policies.
[00:43:42]  It happened last year.
[00:43:43]  Part of the reason the tariffs got pulled back was the bond market surge and the bond market had a freak out and the White House pulled back on the tariffs a little bit.
[00:43:52]  And unfortunately, this is the world we live in now in the United States.
[00:43:56]  When there are economic problems like this inflation spike, suddenly our debt is back at the front burner of a lot of investors' minds.
[00:44:05]  And that's a real problem for the United States.
[00:44:09]  It's going to exacerbate any future crises that we have.
[00:44:14]  And my last question here before I let you go, Heather, is that in your view, if the U.S. would try to close that gap between the national debt and the GDP ratio, should the focus be on revenue, cutting spending, or both?
[00:44:33]  I was on, you know, the best honest answer is, and maybe it'll sound like a cop-out, but it's true.
[00:44:40]  There's going to need to be a compromise between Republicans and Democrats on this.
[00:44:44]  And the only realistic way, when I've looked at it myself and looked, you know, the best budget crunchers I know have looked at this from both Republican angles and Democrat angles, the reality is we will need both.
[00:44:56]  We will need more revenue with tax increases and we will need some cuts.
[00:45:02]  And you really can't get to any sort of sustainable debt situation without both.
[00:45:07]  And I believe the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget has put out their plan.

=== Political Accusations on Economy (13:24) ===

[00:45:12]  That's one plan, but it's a good starting point if people are interested in reading more.
[00:45:18]  All right, Navy Federal Credit Union Chief Economist Heather Long, thank you so much for being with us this morning.
[00:45:23]  Thanks very much.
[00:45:25]  And in about 30 minutes on the Washington Journal, a conversation with Boll Kilmer, a drug policy expert at the RAND Corporation, for a closer look at the big changes in the drug policy under the second Trump administration for reclassifying marijuana to fast-tracking the review of psychedelics for mental health disorders.
[00:45:46]  But first, it's more of your phone calls after the break in open forum.
[00:45:51]  Any political topic on your mind this morning, go ahead and start calling, text, or post your comment for your numbers.
[00:45:57]  Democrats, your line 202-748-8000.
[00:46:02]  Republicans, your line, 202-748-8001.
[00:46:06]  Independents, your line, 202-748-8002.
[00:46:11]  And you can always reach us by text message at 202-748-8003.
[00:46:17]  Talk to you after the break.
[00:46:24]  You're watching C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
[00:46:33]  You look back on what you've achieved in your life.
[00:46:35]  What makes you the happiest of what you've achieved so far?
[00:46:38]  This interview is the absolute apex.
[00:46:40]  Leaders seem to like to wear wigs.
[00:46:42]  How come he didn't have a wig?
[00:46:44]  President Trump said, I made a mistake the first time.
[00:46:47]  I should have given it to you the first time.
[00:46:49]  That isn't what he said.
[00:46:50]  Your first book was called A Time to Kill.
[00:46:53]  How many publishers turned that down?
[00:46:55]  Well, all of them.
[00:46:56]  It's very rare to see Donald Trump laugh.
[00:46:58]  He doesn't like to smile through it.
[00:46:59]  He has what they call the stare.
[00:47:00]  How would the stare?
[00:47:02]  When you go to the Oscars and everybody says, oh, there's the author.
[00:47:04]  All the beautiful people go this way.
[00:47:06]  And then they have another little path in the Oscars where the people like I go.
[00:47:09]  So you wrote a book about somebody who lived with wolves.
[00:47:12]  I interviewed a guy who lived with wolves.
[00:47:14]  Yep.
[00:47:14]  And is that safe to do that?
[00:47:16]  Absolutely not.
[00:47:17]  So I know you were not complaining.
[00:47:18]  You were opinionated about this situation, which is why we love you, David.
[00:47:34]  America marks 250 years, and C-SPAN is there to commemorate every moment.
[00:47:40]  From the signing of the Declaration of Independence to the voices shaping our nation's future, we bring you unprecedented all-platform coverage, exploring the stories, sites, and the spirit that make up America.
[00:47:53]  Join us for remarkable coast-to-coast coverage, celebrating our nation's journey like no other network can, and proudly supported by our television partners.
[00:48:03]  America 250, over a year of historic moments.
[00:48:07]  C-SPAN, official media partner of America 250.
[00:48:14]  Washington Journal continues.
[00:48:16]  Welcome back.
[00:48:16]  It's Open Forum where you can talk about any public policy or political issue on your mind.
[00:48:21]  Let's turn to some phone calls.
[00:48:22]  Bernard from Howard Beach, New York, a Democrat.
[00:48:26]  Good morning, Bernard.
[00:48:28]  Good morning to you.
[00:48:30]  Thank you for taking my call.
[00:48:32]  Bear with me.
[00:48:33]  I'm 84 and I'm losing a little something with my FASPO, but I'd like to communicate the idea.
[00:48:39]  I was watching a program and the young lady was discussing why some of the statistics that were coming from Washington were all over the place.
[00:48:51]  And she said basically that the numbers can come back to form.
[00:48:58]  It's not unexpected.
[00:49:02]  My point of view is: why would anybody in this country be surprised if Donald Trump corrupted the Department of Statistics?
[00:49:13]  Look what he's done to the Department of Justice or the FBI.
[00:49:18]  He's capable of anything, whether he's awake or he's not.
[00:49:23]  Thank you.
[00:49:26]  Ray from Tennessee, a Republican.
[00:49:28]  Good morning, Ray.
[00:49:29]  It's Open Forum.
[00:49:30]  You can talk about any public policy or political issue on your mind.
[00:49:34]  Good morning.
[00:49:36]  Yes, I was going to talk about the economy there, but let me answer that guy's comments.
[00:49:45]  Why is Donald Trump responsible for everything?
[00:49:52]  This man is trying his best to straighten out what four years or eight years or 12 years of the past just came about with Trump, I mean with Biden and Obama.
[00:50:11]  These people have to get in control of themselves.
[00:50:15]  It's not Donald Trump.
[00:50:16]  I see him every day.
[00:50:18]  I was going to talk about the young people in the economy.
[00:50:21]  They go up here to these fast food stores and they go in there and they grab a bag of chips or coke of this.
[00:50:29]  And these places, they jack the prices up.
[00:50:33]  You have to watch what you spend if you ever intend to get ahead.
[00:50:41]  I'm 84.
[00:50:43]  I started out making 75 cents an hour, but I learned to work with my hands.
[00:50:49]  And now, even now, it's better for people to do work with their hands.
[00:50:55]  So don't waste your money.
[00:50:59]  You got to live within your means.
[00:51:02]  And young people have to understand, you've got to climb the ladder.
[00:51:08]  Thank you.
[00:51:09]  Jeffrey from La Plata, Maryland, an independent.
[00:51:13]  You are next.
[00:51:14]  Good morning, Jeffrey.
[00:51:15]  It's open for him.
[00:51:16]  Yeah.
[00:51:17]  So Trump needs to step down because the reasons, plethora of reasons, pedophile, felon, not lowering the prices like he said he would, you know, fired a lot of government employees, had to rehire them, and, you know, destroyed our alliance system, wants to destroy NATO, started this costly, you know, could blast for quite a while,
[00:51:46]  Iran war, even though he would declare it's over.
[00:51:49]  Iranians aren't going to acknowledge that.
[00:51:52]  And he's also pro-nuclear.
[00:51:54]  He's, why can't we use nuclear weapons, he said, several years ago?
[00:51:59]  And so, yeah, there's a plethora of reasons he needs to step down.
[00:52:02]  We need to remove him by the 25th Amendment.
[00:52:04]  He's not going to step down on the Senate Court.
[00:52:06]  25th Amendment, and or when we get the House and Senate back, he needs to be impeached, convicted, and this time, third time, the charm removed.
[00:52:16]  Thank you.
[00:52:18]  Joe from West Plains, Missouri, a Republican.
[00:52:22]  Good morning, Joe.
[00:52:23]  It's open for him.
[00:52:25]  Hi, Ray from Tennessee was exactly right.
[00:52:30]  My daddy told me a long time ago, do what the rich do, and you'll be okay.
[00:52:35]  I haven't worked in 15 years.
[00:52:37]  I got more money now than I ever had in my life.
[00:52:41]  I was a union tradesman in Chicago, and that woman was right.
[00:52:45]  We need more tradesmen, and especially if you're union, you'll make plenty of money, forget college and all your student loans, go do something with your hands, learn a trade, make some damn good money.
[00:53:00]  They're making $55 an hour in Chicago as a sheet metal worker.
[00:53:06]  You have to plan your retirement better.
[00:53:09]  If you stay in lousy-paying jobs and don't have pensions, you're going to have problems later.
[00:53:16]  And Social Security is not the only income you should have as a retiree.
[00:53:20]  I have more money now than I ever had, and I haven't worked in 15 years.
[00:53:25]  So people, learn a trade, plan your retirement better.
[00:53:30]  I'm so tired of hearing I'm struggling.
[00:53:32]  Then you didn't plan your retirement right or your life right.
[00:53:36]  You must get a better paying job and don't spend all your money on junk.
[00:53:41]  Thank you.
[00:53:43]  Joe from West Plains, Missouri.
[00:53:45]  Naran from St. Rose, Louisiana, a Democrat.
[00:53:49]  Good morning.
[00:53:53]  Naran, are you there?
[00:53:55]  Yes, I'm here.
[00:53:57]  Good morning, and I just have a question for you.
[00:54:03]  I preferred I would have spoken when Ms. Hedder was there.
[00:54:09]  But my question for you is during President Joe Biden's admission last year, how many jobs he created a month?
[00:54:21]  And President Donald Trump's one year in office, how many jobs he has created a month?
[00:54:30]  If you could look into your statistics and just mention, I would prefer to hear that.
[00:54:37]  Thank you.
[00:54:38]  You have a great day.
[00:54:42]  All right.
[00:54:42]  I'll see if somebody can find some statistics for us.
[00:54:46]  But I'm looking right now at the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
[00:54:51]  And from December 2024, it says employment up 256,000 in December 2024, average gain of 186 jobs per month in 2025.
[00:55:07]  I'll see if my producer in the back can find the 2025 number.
[00:55:13]  But to your question there, Niran, for 2024 at least, average gain of 186 jobs per month in 2024.
[00:55:21]  Stephen from Suffolk, Virginia.
[00:55:24]  I think I pronounced that wrong.
[00:55:25]  An independent.
[00:55:27]  Good morning.
[00:55:30]  Thanks for having me.
[00:55:31]  And yeah, it's Suffolk, Virginia.
[00:55:34]  Just a couple points on the Iran deal.
[00:55:37]  The first is that even if we go in and blow up the uranium factories, they're just going to sweep it up, repurify it, and make it into what they want.
[00:55:47]  So unless we're going to send in troops to go and get it, even assuming that we know where it's at, this is all futile.
[00:55:55]  And I don't understand how anybody could support it.
[00:55:58]  The second thing is that if they weren't angry at us before, they are certainly angry at us now.
[00:56:06]  And they are much more prone to go and build a nuclear weapon to make that happen.
[00:56:10]  So I don't understand how people can possibly support this president in that.
[00:56:16]  And I just, I sit here and scratch my head.
[00:56:20]  You know, he's not going to get us into a war.
[00:56:23]  He's going to bring prices down.
[00:56:25]  He's done neither.
[00:56:26]  He's lied to people.
[00:56:28]  So I don't understand how they can possibly support him.
[00:56:32]  Thank you very much.
[00:56:33]  All right.
[00:56:33]  That was Stephen from Virginia.
[00:56:35]  Rodney from Miami, Florida, a Republican.
[00:56:39]  Good morning, Rodney.
[00:56:40]  It's open for him.
[00:56:42]  Morning, morning.
[00:56:43]  Hey, I don't mind.
[00:56:45]  In fact, that last caller, I didn't mind what that last caller said.
[00:56:48]  He's against Trump, which is fine.
[00:56:50]  And many people who are, especially who have called this morning, hate Donald Trump.
[00:56:55]  Now, Donald Trump won the popular vote.
[00:56:57]  Donald Trump won the Electoral College.
[00:56:59]  And you have people just losing their minds.
[00:57:02]  The question I've got for you this morning is, why do you allow people who call in to sit there and call Donald Trump a pedophile?
[00:57:12]  He's a criminal.
[00:57:14]  He's got 34 count indictment, which we all know was a very, very, very questionable indictment with horrible jury instructions.
[00:57:23]  I mean, you can go back and parse that.
[00:57:25]  I mean, the impeachment.
[00:57:26]  But you let them attack him in a personal way.
[00:57:29]  You know, the manifesto from the guy that tried to break into the Washington Hilton to the correspondence dinner to kill Donald Trump read just like a C-SPAN morning show.
[00:57:41]  He said the exact same things that you're allowing these people to spew on C-SPAN.
[00:57:46]  My advice is shut them down.
[00:57:49]  If they start talking about pedophilia and criminal, you know, the personal stuff, just say, we're moving on.
[00:57:55]  Greta yesterday, they called in and said, he's a pedophile.
[00:57:59]  And she actually said, and I quote, what evidence do you have that he's a pedophile?
[00:58:04]  So she just repeated the accusation to the person that made the accusation.
[00:58:09]  I'm telling you, this shows a horrible bias because I remember when Biden was in office, you wouldn't let anybody say one word about Biden, but you let them just say the most horrible, malicious things, the vicious things that some of these TDS people are using to commit violence.
[00:58:28]  That was Rodney from Miami, Florida.
[00:58:30]  Nancy from Pennsylvania, Democrat.
[00:58:33]  Good morning, Nancy.
[00:58:35]  Hi.

=== Nevada Calls on State of Country (14:38) ===

[00:58:36]  I'd like to speak about the economy also.
[00:58:40]  In my view, there are two main ways that people earn money.
[00:58:46]  One is they go out and work, and the other main way is they invest.
[00:58:52]  Now, we hear economists talk all the time about how important it is to grow the pie so that everybody can get more money.
[00:59:05]  But the point is that in recent years, when we grow the pie, the money is going to the people who invest and not the people who work for a living.
[00:59:21]  In fact, the lowest workers' share of the gross domestic product, and now what that means is when the money comes in, the big pie comes in, some of it goes to people who work and some of it goes to people who invest.
[00:59:39]  Well, the workers include all the workers, salaried employees, employees who work for an hourly wage, people, even people who are self-employed.
[00:59:57]  That number was at the lowest ever in the third quarter of 2025.
[01:00:05]  It was down to 53.8%.
[01:00:11]  Back in 1970, it was up around 70%.
[01:00:18]  Now, I heard a recent caller talk about the fact that you people have got to plan for your retirement.
[01:00:26]  You have to get jobs that pay you more money.
[01:00:30]  And I agree with him.
[01:00:32]  I agree with him entirely.
[01:00:34]  But I think that that man needs to tell everybody that the reason he had such good money was because he was a part of a union.
[01:00:48]  And so I think people need to understand that what needs to happen in this country is that the people who go out and work for a living get a higher share of the gross domestic product.
[01:01:04]  And I have a lot of questions.
[01:01:05]  All right, Nancy, I think we take your point there.
[01:01:07]  Kendra from Virginian Independent.
[01:01:11]  Good morning, Kendra.
[01:01:14]  Kendra, are you on?
[01:01:17]  One more time, Kendra, are you there?
[01:01:20]  Hello, I'm here.
[01:01:21]  How are you, Jasmine?
[01:01:22]  I'm doing well.
[01:01:22]  How are you?
[01:01:24]  I'm doing well.
[01:01:26]  I guess you're a new addition to Washington Journal.
[01:01:29]  Welcome.
[01:01:30]  Thank you.
[01:01:31]  I've been watching Washington Journal on C-SPAN every morning for over 10 years, and every morning I look forward to hearing different opinions from callers, even though I don't always agree.
[01:01:41]  Now, I'm very happy that the Supreme Court overturned the election.
[01:01:46]  In addition to it being overturned because it was unconstitutional, months prior to the election, the Democrats kept running dishonest commercials by saying we need to make the map fair.
[01:02:00]  However, their commercials never showed the current map, and they knew most people would not do any research.
[01:02:06]  Now, Virginia is a purple state, and the current map is extremely fair.
[01:02:11]  It has six Democrats and five Republicans representing the Virginia.
[01:02:16]  I believe the Virginia Supreme Court made the right decision.
[01:02:20]  Have a great day, Jasmine.
[01:02:21]  Thanks.
[01:02:22]  Bye.
[01:02:22]  It's Kendra from Virginia.
[01:02:24]  Edgar from Connecticut, a Republican.
[01:02:28]  Good morning, Edgar.
[01:02:28]  It's open forum.
[01:02:30]  Hey, good morning.
[01:02:31]  Thank you for taking my call.
[01:02:33]  Of course.
[01:02:35]  I'm just a little confused because I followed Donald Trump for the last 10 years, and I was definitely in line and agreement with a lot of the stuff that he spoke about, you know, especially with the things that were being implemented into our country, especially with our children and public schools and things like that, and healthcare and the pandemic and the whole nine.
[01:02:58]  But I feel as though he's taking a 180-degree turn on his priorities, you know, from what he promised us.
[01:03:07]  You know, we were expecting a golden age and all these positive things to happen.
[01:03:13]  And I don't feel as though that the economy has improved, gas prices are out of whack, and the fact that we're in a war, and he said we'd never be in wars again.
[01:03:23]  You know, he made a lot of promises and he's changed.
[01:03:26]  And he's also attacked a lot of the people that helped put him in office, like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson and all these people that really put him where he is right now.
[01:03:39]  And I just feel as though that he's not the same Donald Trump that he was.
[01:03:43]  You know, and I'm just very disappointed.
[01:03:46]  And I'm not really happy with the state of the country right now where we're at and with the way things are going.
[01:03:52]  So that's how I feel right now.
[01:03:54]  And I'm just hoping, I don't know, that there's some reason to what's going on and it's really going to help us.
[01:04:01]  But I don't see war and killing innocent children and people like that, you know, bombings and stuff like that.
[01:04:08]  It's going to solve anything.
[01:04:09]  So that's all I had to say.
[01:04:12]  All right.
[01:04:13]  Edgar from Connecticut.
[01:04:14]  Clyde from Oklahoma, Democrat.
[01:04:16]  Good morning, Clyde.
[01:04:18]  It's open for him.
[01:04:18]  Hello.
[01:04:20]  How y'all doing?
[01:04:21]  Good.
[01:04:22]  How are you?
[01:04:23]  Oh, well, living through a crisis like everybody else.
[01:04:26]  You know what I mean?
[01:04:29]  That's a United States crisis right here.
[01:04:33]  The only way you get out of something like this is to work your way out.
[01:04:36]  And you definitely don't drop nuclear bombs on somebody's head.
[01:04:39]  You know, he said a big lie.
[01:04:41]  Well, you know, setting people with a nuclear bomb to get rid of a nuclear bomb, that don't work either.
[01:04:46]  So thank you.
[01:04:50]  All right, Mike from Nevada, Missouri.
[01:04:53]  Nevada, Missouri, excuse me, a Republican.
[01:04:56]  Good morning, Mike.
[01:04:57]  Ma'am.
[01:04:59]  Hi, Mike.
[01:05:00]  It's open for him.
[01:05:01]  Hi, it's Nevada, Missouri.
[01:05:03]  We sound like Nevada, but it's Nevada, Missouri.
[01:05:05]  Nevada, Missouri.
[01:05:06]  Okay.
[01:05:06]  Nevada, Missouri.
[01:05:08]  All right, Mike from Nevada, Missouri.
[01:05:09]  I would like to share my opinion with you about this President Trump because I sent a letter to him a few weeks ago, and he reminded me of our President Reagan, the way he takes action in this country.
[01:05:20]  And last time, a president, you know, that really cared for our people and loved our country.
[01:05:25]  And I think Trump said he cares about America first, and I'm real proud of the man what he stands for.
[01:05:31]  And I know it's got to be hard to be in his feet because of what he goes through every day, but I'm just tired to have a man like that running our country and serving us and doing all he can to do because sometimes he's got to go to Congress and the House of Senate.
[01:05:45]  I think God bless him for who he is and everything there.
[01:05:48]  And I'm real proud of you and watching on TV.
[01:05:51]  I think you're doing a wonderful job there.
[01:05:53]  Thank you very much, Mike.
[01:05:57]  All right, Mike from Nevada, Missouri, Republican.
[01:06:01]  Kent from Erie, Illinois, an independent.
[01:06:05]  Good morning, Kent.
[01:06:06]  It's open for him.
[01:06:08]  Hi, just let me ramble a moment, Jasmine, if you would.
[01:06:12]  Anybody who's listened to Trump over the years knows he does what he says he's going to do.
[01:06:19]  He criticized us in the Iraq war for not keeping the oil.
[01:06:24]  We will keep enough oil from Iran that this war will not cost us a dime.
[01:06:31]  We will make money on the war.
[01:06:35]  And how anyone in their right mind could say this was futile.
[01:06:39]  How many American soldiers do these people have to kill before people understand that this is the most dangerous group of people in the world?
[01:06:51]  They're Shiite Muslims.
[01:06:53]  They believe that we should die.
[01:06:56]  They've been killing us.
[01:06:58]  Now, these young people call in because nobody got killed in their generation.
[01:07:03]  They don't think it's worth fighting a war.
[01:07:06]  Trump has got this thing under control.
[01:07:10]  He's not going to remove the blockade.
[01:07:13]  It's crippling the country of Iran.
[01:07:17]  He's not going to leave until these people of Iran have eradicated the Shiite Muslims that are killing them.
[01:07:27]  They killed 40-some thousand of their own people.
[01:07:30]  And these morons call in and the fools say, why are we over there doing that?
[01:07:35]  The price of gas here.
[01:07:37]  Well, when Biden ran it up to $5 and put up windmills, there was silence.
[01:07:44]  But Jasmine, Trump is so far ahead of him.
[01:07:47]  He's not going to settle.
[01:07:49]  He doesn't want a deal.
[01:07:52]  He's got the Iranians jumping through hoops.
[01:07:55]  They think there's not going to be a deal till this regime is gone.
[01:08:02]  And the people that call in, the Christians that call us, say, how does people support Trump?
[01:08:08]  How could they do that?
[01:08:09]  He's a pedophile.
[01:08:10]  And then I think back to my catechism that says, I shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
[01:08:18]  I don't understand people.
[01:08:21]  There's job openings all over in this part of Illinois.
[01:08:26]  There's people.
[01:08:27]  My grandson skipped college.
[01:08:30]  He's a pipe fitter now, making like 50 bucks an hour, working 70 hours a week because business is so good.
[01:08:39]  The country is booming.
[01:08:41]  And people say, oh, the price of gas.
[01:08:45]  Well, maybe we should put up more windmills.
[01:08:48]  This guy, I don't care what you think about Trump, like him or dislike him.
[01:08:53]  He's the most effective president we've ever had.
[01:08:56]  And I am so proud to be a three-tour Vietnam veteran and realize we got a president finally that's got the guts to take on people that's been killing Americans for 50 years.
[01:09:09]  So the next moron that calls in and says, we don't know why we're doing this, tell them to read a book.
[01:09:16]  All right.
[01:09:17]  That was Kent from Erie, Illinois, an independent.
[01:09:19]  Miriam from Texas, a Democrat.
[01:09:22]  You are next.
[01:09:23]  Good morning, Miriam.
[01:09:24]  It's open forum.
[01:09:26]  Yes.
[01:09:27]  Well, one of the reasons why we're allowed to say the word pedophile is because we live in a nation where we can say that.
[01:09:35]  Well, just to be clear, the president hasn't been charged of any sort of charge like that.
[01:09:41]  So I think that that's what that caller was saying.
[01:09:44]  We're allowed to make assumptions because we have free speech and your network allows us to say whatever is on our mind.
[01:09:54]  So we're allowed to make assertions because everybody calls in and makes their own assertions.
[01:10:00]  Sure, but to just be clear, factually, the president has not been charged any sort of formal accusations of that.
[01:10:07]  But keep going.
[01:10:09]  There are reports where he has been charged and not indicted, but there's court reports where he has molested or he aggravated a little girl.
[01:10:20]  So there are credible reports that are out there.
[01:10:22]  One thing that they're not being investigated, but there are...
[01:10:26]  I think you're talking about those Epstein ones, which the Department of Justice said that they were not credible, but continue.
[01:10:33]  Based on all of that stuff, we are allowed to make our own assertions, and we can say that he's a pedophile.
[01:10:39]  You know, and you can say, because you have to say that he's not, but we, as Americans, are allowed to say, make those assertions.
[01:10:49]  And so, because of all of that, I believe that he's a pedophile.
[01:10:52]  Well, that's one thing.
[01:10:54]  He has not been charged or any type of formal thing.
[01:10:57]  Let's move on from that point.
[01:10:58]  Do you have another point for open forum here?
[01:11:02]  Yes.
[01:11:03]  The thing that is worrying me a lot is that the Supreme Court is becoming a very extremist, right-wing arm to the Republican.
[01:11:16]  And I live in the South.
[01:11:18]  The good thing about Texas is that there's a lot of Hispanics in here in Texas.
[01:11:25]  So we can join, we can group and maybe we'll change our representation at some point.
[01:11:32]  But I really feel for the African Americans that are in the other states, like Alabama, Tennessee, and all those other states where they're really, really, really, the, what do you call it?
[01:11:47]  The legislators are going back to the Jim Crow era where they're taking the African American rights.
[01:11:54]  And that is really, really, really worrying me because we're losing a representation.
[01:12:01]  All right.
[01:12:01]  I think Miriam there is talking about efforts by South Carolina, Alabama, and perhaps Mississippi to redraw their maps after the Supreme Court struck down components from the Voting Rights Act.
[01:12:15]  Charles from Michigan, Republican.
[01:12:18]  Good morning.
[01:12:18]  It's open forum.
[01:12:20]  Yes.
[01:12:22]  I would like to hear some callers from Gearborne, Michigan to call in and speak about what's going on in their city.
[01:12:34]  And we'd all like to know if you really do love America.
[01:12:42]  That was Charles from Michigan.
[01:12:43]  Boris from Cleveland, Tennessee, and Independent.
[01:12:48]  Good morning, and happy Mother's Day to everybody.
[01:12:52]  But here's the deal.
[01:12:53]  When Flawinski, I think the guy's name, came into the Oval Office.
[01:13:00]  And this, yesterday I was thinking about that.
[01:13:03]  When he came into the Oval Office and they said something about what he was wearing and they kind of went against him about what he had on Ukrainian President Zelensky.
[01:13:14]  Okay.

=== Campaign 2026 Reshapes Power (03:14) ===

[01:13:15]  That's what you're talking about.
[01:13:16]  Yes, ma'am.
[01:13:17]  What in the world does it have to do with anything about what that man had on?
[01:13:23]  Now, here's the deal.
[01:13:25]  If a rich man walked into my house and he seen that I was dressed poorly, does he confront me with that by looking at me?
[01:13:35]  You know, it's kind of like what the Bible says.
[01:13:39]  If a man walks into your house, I mean, if you walk into a rich man's house and he don't offer you the food first, but he shows you all his wonderful things, then he asks you to eat.
[01:13:52]  Y'all think about that.
[01:13:53]  It's true.
[01:13:54]  And God bless all of y'all and have a happy Mother's Day.
[01:13:58]  And show that thing about Flawinski, if you don't mind.
[01:14:02]  All right, Boris from Cleveland, Tennessee, and Independent.
[01:14:05]  Up next, a closer look at the big changes in the drug policy under the second Trump administration, from reclassifying marijuana to fast-tracking the review of psychedelics for mental health disorders.
[01:14:16]  That conversation with Bo Kilmer, drug policy expert at the RAND Corporation.
[01:14:22]  Up next.
[01:14:28]  Watch America's Book Club, C-SPAN's bold original series Sunday with our guest, best-selling author Heather Cox Richardson.
[01:14:37]  She's a professor of history at Boston College and whose books span subjects from the Civil War and Reconstruction to the Gilded Age, the American West, and the history of the Republican Party.
[01:14:48]  Her most recent book is the best-selling Democracy Awakening.
[01:14:52]  Her newsletter, Letters from an American, reaches over 6 million readers.
[01:14:56]  She joins our host, renowned author and civic leader David Rubinstein.
[01:15:01]  Some people who have written about the Revolutionary War say the indispensable person was George Washington.
[01:15:06]  Had he not been the general, we probably would have lost the war and so forth.
[01:15:09]  Do you agree with that?
[01:15:11]  In terms of the ideology, the person he was, and his willingness to walk away from power, that was extraordinary.
[01:15:19]  I always tell my students America has lucked out a number of times.
[01:15:22]  And the first time it lucked out was with George Washington in that position of extraordinary power.
[01:15:27]  Walking away from the army first, and that's just why that's in the rotunda of the Capitol, but then walking away from the presidency is an extraordinary thing.
[01:15:37]  Watch America's Book Club with Heather Cox Richardson Sunday at 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only on C-SPAN.
[01:15:55]  Campaign 2026 is underway, and the stakes couldn't be higher.
[01:16:00]  Every seat in the United States House of Representatives is up for grabs, along with 33 U.S. Senate races.
[01:16:06]  And the outcome of both could reshape the balance of power in Washington.
[01:16:10]  Voters will also decide 36 gubernatorial contests.
[01:16:14]  From the campaign trail to election night, follow Campaign 2026 on the C-SPAN networks, C-SPAN, bringing you democracy unfiltered.
[01:16:26]  Washington Journal continues.

=== Cannabis Legalization Hoops (16:07) ===

[01:16:29]  Joining us now to talk about Trump administration decisions that could loosen federal restrictions on some substances is Bo Kilmer, co-director of RAND's Drug Policy Research Center.
[01:16:40]  Bo, thank you so much for being with us this morning.
[01:16:44]  Thanks for having me, Jasmine.
[01:16:45]  Now, first, let me ask you: what kind of work do you do at the Drug Policy Research Center?
[01:16:52]  Yeah, so RAND is a nonprofit, nonpartisan research organization that has the goals of improving policy and decision-making through research and analysis.
[01:17:02]  So we work in a lot of different areas, but at the intersection of the work that we do on health, well-being, criminal justice, and international affairs, we have our drug policy research center where we work on all aspects of substance use and drug policy.
[01:17:18]  I want to make it clear: we're not an advocacy organization.
[01:17:21]  We're not going to come out and say, yes, you should legalize this or no, you shouldn't legalize that.
[01:17:25]  We just really try to do the research to help inform decision makers and help them think about the pros and cons of the different choices they confront.
[01:17:34]  But for me personally, I spent a good chunk of the past 20 years working on cannabis policy here in the United States and in other countries.
[01:17:42]  And I'd say for about the past five years, I've been doing a lot more work with respect to psychedelics.
[01:17:47]  Now, what does the current law, current federal law rather, say about marijuana and psychedelics?
[01:17:55]  Where do they stand?
[01:17:56]  Yeah.
[01:17:57]  Well, let's start with marijuana or cannabis.
[01:17:59]  Cannabis is illegal under federal law.
[01:18:02]  However, beginning in 1996, California was the first state to allow cannabis to be used for medical purposes.
[01:18:10]  And now there are about 40 other states that allow it, that allow medical cannabis.
[01:18:15]  And now about half the states also allow cannabis to be used for what they call adult use purposes.
[01:18:21]  So, anyone who's 21 and older can go into one of the shops and purchase cannabis.
[01:18:26]  But while all this has been happening, there was the 2018 federal farm bill, which was really led to a proliferation of what we would call intoxicating hemp products.
[01:18:38]  So, if you think about Delta 9 THC, that's the main psychoactive component of cannabis.
[01:18:45]  Because of the farm bill, there are products with Delta-9 and other cannabinoids, just they've really proliferating throughout many parts of the country, including states where they haven't legalized.
[01:18:56]  So, you have all that going on, but it's still illegal under federal law.
[01:19:01]  There was a law that was passed that's supposed to make these intoxicating hemp products illegal under federal law.
[01:19:07]  It's not supposed to go into effect until November of next year.
[01:19:10]  But there have been bills introduced to either delay or to amend or to just get rid of that ban.
[01:19:18]  And what about psychedelics?
[01:19:20]  So, psychedelics is going to depend on the substance you're talking about.
[01:19:24]  You know, people have different definitions of psychedelics.
[01:19:27]  I mean, there's general agreement about what the classic psychedelics are, being that would be psilocybin mushrooms, LSD, mescaline, and LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, and DFD.
[01:19:45]  Yeah.
[01:19:46]  But then, also, you've got ibogaine is considered a psychedelic in some situations.
[01:19:54]  You've got MDMA, Amanita muscaria mushrooms.
[01:19:59]  So, most of these substances are classified as Schedule I drugs.
[01:20:04]  And it's important for people, not only for the psychedelics conversation, but also for cannabis to understand kind of how scheduling works.
[01:20:15]  And so, under the Federal Controlled Substances Act, all controlled substances are placed into five schedules or five categories.
[01:20:25]  Well, while we've got five, you can really think about there being two buckets.
[01:20:29]  If a substance doesn't have a federally recognized medical value, it automatically goes to Schedule I. If it does have a federally recognized medical value, it's either Schedule I, you know, two, three, four, or five, depending on kind of risk of abuse and kind of other health concerns.
[01:20:50]  So, for example, cocaine is a Schedule II drug.
[01:20:53]  There is, you know, there are federally recognized medical values to using it, but it's also a high-risk substance.
[01:20:58]  I want to jump in here so that folks can kind of get a visual of exactly what you're talking about.
[01:21:04]  We have some graphics here.
[01:21:05]  If my producers can put it up on the screen of Schedule I drugs versus Schedule II drugs here, and Schedule I drugs, drugs with no accepted medical use, as you said, and a high potential for abuse, that's heroin, ecstasy, LSD, as you said, according to the DEA.
[01:21:22]  That's where we're getting these from.
[01:21:23]  Schedule II drugs, drugs, like you said, with moderate or low potential for physical and psychological dependence, but perhaps have some medical use: ketamine, anabolic steroids, testosterone.
[01:21:36]  So, those are kind of the two buckets in which we're talking about.
[01:21:38]  I wonder, though, if we can just back up before we get into the actual schedules about how do the laws, federal versus state, conflict.
[01:21:49]  Obviously, as you said, California, you can use that, we can use marijuana recreationally, but I wonder how those intersect when it comes to state law and federal law.
[01:21:59]  Yeah, no, they're very much in conflict.
[01:22:03]  You know, all the state activity is illegal under federal law.
[01:22:08]  However, since 2014, there's been a federal budget rider, which essentially prohibits the Department of Justice from cracking down on state legal medical markets.
[01:22:19]  But that budget rider doesn't apply to adult use markets.
[01:22:24]  But for all intents and purposes, the federal government has really kind of sat on the sidelines and kind of watched these markets really grow in the states that have passed adult use legalization.
[01:22:36]  What have we learned about how states have gone about legalizing marijuana?
[01:22:41]  And what has been their reason for doing so in a way that the federal government just will not?
[01:22:48]  Yeah, so there are a lot of different ways to legalize cannabis or legalize other drugs.
[01:22:55]  You know, you can, but what we see here in the United States is it's largely been kind of a for-profit commercial model where we've gone from prohibition to medical to now you've got private companies that are producing and selling.
[01:23:09]  You know, those aren't the only options.
[01:23:12]  And it's really interesting when you look outside of the United States and you look at some of these other countries that have legalized, many of them are taking a more kind of middle ground or more restrictive approach than what we're seeing here in the United States.
[01:23:26]  I wonder, is there a similar track to what marijuana has experienced, at least on the state side, perhaps maybe even on the federal side?
[01:23:36]  Is there a similar track for psychedelics?
[01:23:39]  It's happening.
[01:23:40]  Yeah.
[01:23:41]  So most of the activity you're seeing so far is with respect to psilocybin mushrooms, what people call magic mushrooms.
[01:23:49]  It's a Schedule I substance, illegal under federal law.
[01:23:53]  However, the voters in Oregon in 2020, they passed a law that would allow for supervised psilocybin use, meaning you would go to a licensed facility, work with a licensed facilitator, they would administer the substance there, and you wouldn't be able to buy it and take it home.
[01:24:10]  You can't just go to a store.
[01:24:11]  So that's up and running in Oregon.
[01:24:15]  A couple years later, Colorado passed something pretty similar in terms of allowing for supervised psilocybin use.
[01:24:22]  But there's a twist.
[01:24:23]  In Colorado, they also allow adults to grow and forage and use and give away psilocybin and a few other kind of nature-based psychedelics.
[01:24:34]  They're kind of what we would call a grow and give model.
[01:24:37]  And then more recently, New Mexico passed a law to allow for supervised psilocybin use, but only for those with certain medical conditions.
[01:24:46]  And there's just a lot of activity happening right now.
[01:24:50]  I think in 2026 alone, there have been bills related to psychedelics that have been introduced in more than 30 states.
[01:24:58]  Now, a lot of these bills would just kind of fund clinical research, but there are some bills, for example, in New York, as well as in Massachusetts that would allow for psilocybin retail sales.
[01:25:10]  I'm not sure if they're going to pass, but I do think you're going to see more states kind of moving in this direction.
[01:25:16]  Now, I want to get to some more questions here on reclassification, but I want to invite first our viewers to join in on this conversation.
[01:25:24]  We're talking about the latest moves by the Trump administration to reclassify some substances.
[01:25:29]  Democrats, your line, 202-748-8000.
[01:25:33]  Republicans, your line, 202-748-8001.
[01:25:37]  And Independents, your line is 202-748-8002.
[01:25:41]  Start calling in to join us as we talk about this.
[01:25:45]  Now, earlier this month, President Trump announced that certain types of marijuana would be reclassified.
[01:25:52]  Bo, what do you believe led to this decision?
[01:25:57]  Yeah, I mean, there have been conversations about moving cannabis from being a Schedule I drug to a Schedule III.
[01:26:05]  I mean, those actually started in the Biden administration.
[01:26:08]  And with the second Trump administration, there have been conversations about it.
[01:26:13]  And then, yeah, it was on April 23rd, the acting attorney general issued this 33-page order about reclassification.
[01:26:22]  There's a lot in that, in those 33 pages, but kind of reading what's in the order and kind of seeing the reactions, I mean, I think there are kind of four big takeaways here.
[01:26:33]  The first takeaway is that this is not legalizing cannabis under federal law.
[01:26:39]  What it does is it reclassifies cannabis products that are produced or sold as part of state legal medical markets, moves them from Schedule I to Schedule III.
[01:26:52]  And this would have implications for cannabis businesses, and it might also have implication for research.
[01:26:58]  Now, the third item to think about is that we're still waiting to hear from different federal agencies about some of the details.
[01:27:07]  So this is really new, and so there's still a lot we're waiting to hear about.
[01:27:13]  But finally, some of the anti-legalization groups, they've initiated legal action to actually prevent the DEA from going forward with this reclassification.
[01:27:23]  So it's been really interesting to see how this all plays out.
[01:27:27]  Are there specific categories that are a part of this reclassification of marijuana and other categories of marijuana that are not?
[01:27:37]  Yeah, so this is only focused on those products that are produced and sold as part of state legal medical markets.
[01:27:46]  So it doesn't apply to adult use cannabis products.
[01:27:51]  But what is the possibility that cannabis could be legalized on the federal level at some point in the future when it comes to adult use?
[01:28:00]  It's possible.
[01:28:02]  Another aspect of the order that the acting attorney general issued is that he said that beginning in late June, they're going to start the process for potentially rescheduling all cannabis products from Schedule I to Schedule III.
[01:28:20]  So that would begin at end of June.
[01:28:23]  And I think he said he was hoping it would be largely resolved sometime in July.
[01:28:28]  But even if that goes through and you move cannabis, all cannabis products, not just medical products, if you move them from Schedule I to Schedule III, that doesn't mean it's legal under federal law.
[01:28:40]  And the other thing is, you know, and it wouldn't be as if you could just go to a pharmacy and get cannabis products, right?
[01:28:48]  They have to go, they have to be approved by the FDA.
[01:28:52]  So if this goes through sometime this summer, it would not legalize cannabis under federal law.
[01:28:59]  Now, a part of this, the president has said, who is notoriously doesn't drink alcohol, doesn't do drugs, he has said that this move is meant for medical research in part.
[01:29:15]  What does it mean, this ruling from the Department of Justice for medical research into marijuana and also into psychedelics?
[01:29:24]  Yeah.
[01:29:25]  So just speaking about cannabis, you know, as a Schedule I drug, you can do research on it, but there are a lot of hoops you need to jump through, a lot of paperwork.
[01:29:37]  When you move from Schedule I to Schedule III, there's still a lot of work that has to be done behind the scenes, but there's less of a burden.
[01:29:46]  So the argument is, is by moving from Schedule I to Schedule III, you might be able to reduce some of those barriers and that might get more people involved in doing the work or in doing the research.
[01:29:58]  But one of the interesting things about the order that was issued by the acting attorney general is that he said specifically that if you're a researcher, you've got a DEA license, and you want to do research with some of the products that are actually being sold in the state legal medical markets, you would not be at risk of civil or criminal penalties.
[01:30:22]  This is a big deal because most of the research that's done on cannabis isn't focused on the products that people are actually buying.
[01:30:29]  So that really could open up some research avenues.
[01:30:32]  But there's a big, Jasmine, there's a bigger question here.
[01:30:35]  Even if you've reduced some of these barriers, who's going to pay for this research?
[01:30:40]  You know, typically it would be the National Institutes of Health.
[01:30:42]  They support a lot of this work.
[01:30:44]  Are they going to step up?
[01:30:46]  Are other funders going to come in?
[01:30:47]  That's actually the bigger question here.
[01:30:50]  All right, let's hear some phone calls.
[01:30:52]  Kyle from Buffalo, New York, a Republican.
[01:30:55]  Good morning, Kyle.
[01:30:56]  Good morning, C-SPAN.
[01:30:59]  Ms. Kilmer, can you talk on the federal government's responsibility to make changes?
[01:31:06]  They're the ones who actually start the problem with the drugs.
[01:31:10]  Marijuana was perfectly fine.
[01:31:12]  I believe the hemp industry, the cotton industry were battling.
[01:31:16]  And so to the cotton industry legislated to hemp, which made marijuana illegal, LSD was created by the CIA, leaked out to the public.
[01:31:30]  So, you know, the war on drugs in the 70s incarcerated a lot of people.
[01:31:35]  According to the 13th Amendment, punishment for a crime now can be used as a form of slavery.
[01:31:42]  So we've seen our prison system skyrocket since the 70s all because of drug use.
[01:31:50]  We should have decriminalized a long time ago.
[01:31:54]  And if you can maybe speak on the federal road to maybe expediate the process because they're the ones who caused the problem.
[01:32:00]  Thank you.
[01:32:01]  Yeah.
[01:32:02]  Kyle, thank you very much.
[01:32:04]  Just want to make it clear, the CIA did not invent LSD.
[01:32:08]  But you're right in terms of, you know, we have had these various federal laws over time.
[01:32:14]  But it's also important to remember that, you know, there are a number of states had started prohibiting these substances before the federal government.
[01:32:22]  But you're exactly right.
[01:32:23]  There can be this role for the federal government.
[01:32:26]  And, you know, as I alluded to earlier, I mean, you've got this budget rider that kind of prevents the Department of Justice from cracking down on state legal medical markets.

=== Executive Orders on Mental Health (15:05) ===

[01:32:36]  But with respect to adult use, you don't have that budget rider, but they've largely sat on the sidelines.
[01:32:42]  So I was actually part of a group with the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine, where we were kind of looking back at 10 years of cannabis legalization.
[01:32:53]  And one of the big takeaways there was that even at the federal level, even if the federal government doesn't legalize or if the federal government doesn't reschedule, there's still a lot that the federal government could be doing to help the state.
[01:33:05]  For example, in terms of having consistent testing requirements, education, prevention.
[01:33:11]  So regardless of kind of the federal legal status, there's a lot more that different federal agencies that can be doing to help states as they navigate these waters.
[01:33:21]  John from Del Ray Beach, Florida, an independent.
[01:33:26]  Good morning, John.
[01:33:27]  Yes, good morning.
[01:33:29]  I've got a comment about medical marijuana and marijuana and then with the hallucinogens.
[01:33:36]  So I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and the marijuana that used to be available on the dark market, it seems like I just, I've had some people who've had prescriptions for marijuana, and it's just not, it's not doable for me and a lot of other people.
[01:33:54]  I wish we could just get some seeds from the 1970s and grow it.
[01:33:59]  When it comes to hallucinogens, I want you to, if you could explain that people will not be able to get a prescription and go to a drugstore and get hallucinogens, that the therapy is supposedly with one or two people in the room or guiding people through their experience.
[01:34:23]  and that the results of people with PTSD and it's had amazing results.
[01:34:30]  And listening to the callers, I listen to C-SPIN daily as I walk my dog in the morning.
[01:34:38]  There are a lot of these people calling up.
[01:34:40]  I think that if Trump was the monster that people say he is, that maybe we could just experiment on these people that call in that have no connection to reality.
[01:34:55]  Thanks, Dan.
[01:34:56]  You raise a really interesting point.
[01:34:58]  So there has been a fair amount of research where they've done clinical trials where they've looked at what are the effects of different psychedelic substances on different mental health conditions.
[01:35:10]  And there have been some very positive studies with respect to using MDMA or ecstasy to treat post-traumatic stress disorder.
[01:35:19]  There have also been some encouraging studies with respect to using psbocybin to treat treatment-resistant depression as well as major depressive disorder.
[01:35:30]  And there have been others too.
[01:35:31]  You know, there have been other studies which have also focused on substance use disorders and whether or not various psychedelics can help with treating them.
[01:35:40]  But while there has been all this kind of encouraging clinical evidence, none of these drugs have been passed or none of them have been approved by the FDA to where they could be, where you can actually have them prescribed.
[01:35:55]  Ketamine is a whole kind of different story.
[01:35:57]  But when we're talking about the classic psychedelics, none of them have been approved.
[01:36:02]  And what was interesting is it was three weeks ago today that the president at the White House signed an executive order focused on psychedelics and using them to treat different mental health conditions.
[01:36:18]  There's a lot that that executive order will do, but I kind of put it into three different buckets.
[01:36:24]  The first thing that this executive order hopes to do is to expedite and provide more funding for the clinical trials for using different psychedelic substances to treat mental health conditions.
[01:36:35]  The second thing it does, or it hopes to do, is it makes it easier for those with life-threatening conditions to actually access psychedelics as part of a compassionate use program.
[01:36:47]  And the final thing it would do, a final kind of bucket, is that it would accelerate FDA review and the possible approval of some of these substances for mental health conditions.
[01:36:56]  Now, you have to keep in mind, this is an executive order.
[01:36:59]  This wasn't as if he was signing a bill into law.
[01:37:02]  But, you know, a few days after he did sign the executive order, the FDA did issue what they call some priority vouchers to some companies to really kind of expedite the review process.
[01:37:12]  So it'll be really interesting to kind of see how this plays out.
[01:37:15]  I want to ask you more about that executive order here, Beau, because if we pull it up on the screen, the White House focused on veterans.
[01:37:25]  It says, today, over 14 million American adults have a serious mental illness defined as having diagnosable mental behavior or emotional disorder that substantially interferes with a person's life and ability to function.
[01:37:39]  And about 8 million are on prescription medication for these conditions.
[01:37:43]  Critically, veterans often suffer in greater measure for this tragedy.
[01:37:47]  For over 20 years, there have been more than 6,000 veteran suicides per year, and a veteran suicide rate is more than twice as much as a non-veteran adult population.
[01:37:59]  So do we know anything about veterans' attitudes when it comes to psychedelics?
[01:38:06]  Oh, I'm really glad you asked that.
[01:38:08]  Here at RAND, two days ago, I just finished a whole report on that.
[01:38:12]  So it's not public yet.
[01:38:13]  I can't speak about it, but I'm hoping within a month or so.
[01:38:17]  Because you're exactly right.
[01:38:19]  I mean, there has been some research where they would ask veterans, you know, should psychedelics be legalized for therapeutic use.
[01:38:27]  But the thing is, is a lot of those surveys or a lot of those studies, they kind of lump all the psychedelics together.
[01:38:34]  So you can imagine, if you get a question, you know, should psychedelics be legalized for therapeutic purposes, you know, if you feel one way about LSD, but you feel a different way about psilocybin mushrooms, how are you going to answer that?
[01:38:47]  So with my colleagues at RAND, we just issued in September of last year, we fielded a really large survey where we actually oversampled veterans so we could get more insights, not only in terms of their use patterns, but also their policy preferences.
[01:39:04]  And what was important about that is we focus on the specific substances.
[01:39:08]  So we'll know a lot more.
[01:39:10]  I'll be excited to talk more about that in a couple of weeks.
[01:39:13]  Okay, well, hopefully we'll have you back on.
[01:39:15]  But I just wonder generally, if we can't narrow in on veterans just yet, do Americans largely support the use of psychedelics or legalize use of psychedelics?
[01:39:26]  I know that's a good question.
[01:39:28]  So once again, Jasmine, it depends on what substance you're talking about.
[01:39:33]  So in this survey that we did, one of the questions we asked was, do you think psilocybin mushrooms, the use of psilocybin mushrooms, should be legal or not?
[01:39:46]  And, you know, yes, no, or don't know.
[01:39:49]  And this was nationally representative of all adults, 18 and older.
[01:39:52]  And we found that it was about 23% of adults supported the legal use for psilocybin.
[01:39:59]  But when we asked the same question, but we changed it and we focused either on LSD or we focused on MDMA, ecstasy, the support for that was only about 10%.
[01:40:11]  But here's something to keep in mind.
[01:40:14]  Gallup has been asking that same question with respect to marijuana since 1969.
[01:40:20]  And for 2025, they find that about 64, you know, 64 or 65% of Americans support the legal use of marijuana.
[01:40:32]  So we actually asked the same question.
[01:40:34]  We got the same result.
[01:40:35]  But when you look at it over time, there was a period, about a 20-year period before 1995, where public support for the legal use of marijuana or cannabis was at about 23, 25%.
[01:40:50]  Well, that's where we are with psilocybin right now.
[01:40:52]  And it was right after 1995 that public support began to increase.
[01:40:57]  And that's when California passed its medical cannabis voter initiative.
[01:41:02]  And then other states did as well.
[01:41:04]  And so I don't know if psilocybin is going to follow that same trajectory, but I do think you're going to see more states kind of liberalizing their approaches to psilocybin and maybe some of these other psychedelic substances.
[01:41:16]  All right, Jackie from Pennsylvania, Democrat.
[01:41:19]  Good morning, Jackie.
[01:41:21]  Good morning.
[01:41:22]  I just want to speak on the marijuana.
[01:41:26]  It's not legal in all the states, but the states that it's legal in, what about the prisoners, the people you've put in jail for having a half an ounce or an ounce of wheat?
[01:41:35]  Do they get out?
[01:41:37]  And marijuana has no side effects.
[01:41:40]  Sleepy, hungry, mellow.
[01:41:43]  Why are they, I don't understand it.
[01:41:48]  Marijuana was put here before any of these other drugs, ASICs and all of that.
[01:41:55]  Marijuana grows out the ground.
[01:41:57]  Marijuana doesn't hurt anyone.
[01:42:00]  It makes them feel good.
[01:42:02]  It takes away pain.
[01:42:04]  I don't understand what the big deal is.
[01:42:07]  I see where marijuana was illegal and now it's legal.
[01:42:11]  The government seen that they could make money off of marijuana and now they want marijuana out here.
[01:42:17]  They're taxing it.
[01:42:19]  Before, just the dealers were making money.
[01:42:22]  Now the government makes money off of it.
[01:42:24]  Anything the government can make money off of, they're taking over.
[01:42:28]  Thank you.
[01:42:32]  Thank you, Jackie.
[01:42:33]  And you're right, there are some people that do benefit from using cannabis for medical purposes.
[01:42:39]  But I would push back on the claim that there are no side effects.
[01:42:43]  There are people that can run into problems with their cannabis use.
[01:42:47]  And as I alluded to earlier, a lot of the research that's been done on the health consequences of cannabis, it's not focused on the products that people are purchasing now.
[01:42:59]  A lot of that research is focused on people that were using lower potency products.
[01:43:04]  I mean, that's one of the things that we've seen over time.
[01:43:06]  There's been a real increase in the kind of the potency or the THC concentration of these products, not only with the flour, but also with some of the concentrates.
[01:43:14]  So I would push back on the claim that there are no side effects.
[01:43:17]  There are some people that do run into problems, although most people who use cannabis don't run into any of these issues or don't have any of these issues.
[01:43:24]  But your first point, Jackie, is important in terms of what do you do for those individuals who previously have been convicted or arrested on a cannabis possession or cannabis sales offense.
[01:43:39]  And a number of states have implemented approaches to help try to seal or expunge those records.
[01:43:49]  And it's been really interesting watching this conversation happen over time.
[01:43:53]  You know, early on when people were talking about, especially in terms of kind of racial disparities and the criminal justice impact, a lot of it was just on reducing arrests.
[01:44:01]  But then over time, people began talking about, well, maybe we should expunge or seal some of these criminal offenses because with a criminal offense, it can have implications for a lot of different things.
[01:44:13]  But if you have a conviction for a drug offense, there are a number of kind of additional collateral consequences.
[01:44:20]  So early on, some of the states began to allow people to expunge or seal certain cannabis offenses, not all of them.
[01:44:29]  But what they did is they put the onus on the individual.
[01:44:32]  So yes, you can do it, but you have to go to court.
[01:44:35]  You might have to hire a lawyer.
[01:44:37]  And it could potentially cost you some money to do this.
[01:44:40]  And so, and that really creates a barrier for some individuals.
[01:44:43]  So then you began to see more states kind of, they would allow for expunging or sealing certain cannabis offenses, but then they put the onus on the state.
[01:44:53]  So it wasn't on the individual to petition the court.
[01:44:56]  It said that the state would then have to do this.
[01:44:58]  So you're seeing kind of more states kind of move in that direction.
[01:45:02]  We have one comment question on Twitter right now.
[01:45:07]  It's from Sally Sue.
[01:45:09]  She says, in your work, you've distinguished between casual gummy use and high potency concentrates.
[01:45:16]  Should federal reclassification treat different tiers of potency differently?
[01:45:24]  That's a great point.
[01:45:25]  It's a possibility.
[01:45:26]  You know, as I said, you've got people that are using, are much more likely to be using some of these higher potency products.
[01:45:33]  But I have to say, the evidence that we have on the kind of health consequences isn't great.
[01:45:40]  So, I was part of a team with a number of individuals at UCLA who we reviewed all of the studies that it kind of looked at what you might call higher potency cannabis products.
[01:45:51]  And I have to say, just that, you know, the evidence out there isn't strong.
[01:45:55]  A lot of it was based on self-report.
[01:45:57]  And that said, so it's hard to make any strong causal claims, but I think there is a real concern that with some of these higher potency products that, you know, that people can run into more issues in terms of suffering from a cannabis use disorder.
[01:46:11]  There can be some mental health implications.
[01:46:14]  So I know that there's going to be a lot more research on this.
[01:46:16]  And that's one of the things when we talked about the Attorney General's order that was issued on April 23rd, where it specifically said that researchers, you know, you wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't be at risk of civil or criminal penalties if you begin doing research with some of these products that are actually produced and sold as part of state legal cannabis markets.
[01:46:38]  So, you know, if there is the funding to support that work, I think we're going to learn a lot more about the health consequences of these higher potency products.
[01:46:47]  All right, Doris from Chicopee, Massachusetts, a Republican.
[01:46:50]  Good morning, Doris.
[01:46:52]  Hi, good afternoon, Bo.
[01:46:55]  I just wanted to say that I work for a private middle school and high school.
[01:46:58]  And I wanted to say that the only reason that cannabis is having so many legal issues is because in the 1930s, Wilhelm Reich realized that hemp, a renewable resource, couldn't be competed with the paper industry that he was working on.
[01:47:14]  You can make just about anything out of hemp.
[01:47:17]  So not only that, the term marijuana was created to marginalize poor people, marginalized people such as BIPOC and Hispanics.
[01:47:28]  Next, people don't really care too much about legalization, meaning going into a store to buy.
[01:47:34]  They care more about decriminalization because, yes, there are a lot of people that are in prison or getting affected for substances that can help them.

=== Decriminalizing Synthetic Substances (11:54) ===

[01:47:42]  And this also includes psychedelics, but I'm focusing on cannabis right now.
[01:47:46]  This will not only affect veterans, but it'll affect elders with personal, with debilitating diseases and a lot of young people that are going to realize that this is an issue.
[01:47:56]  It shouldn't be criminalized and it should be legalized on a federal level.
[01:48:01]  And I think people are going to realize collectively how beneficial not only cannabis, medical cannabis, but a lot of these psychedelics that a lot of young people are learning about and waking up to.
[01:48:13]  So I think that while we can have this discussion now, the new generation is going to make sure and guarantee the elders that need it and the veterans that we have access to this medication without criminalization or issues.
[01:48:27]  Thank you, Bo.
[01:48:30]  Wow.
[01:48:31]  That's a lot to react to, Doris.
[01:48:33]  First of all, you're exactly right about terminology.
[01:48:36]  I typically refer to it as cannabis as opposed to marijuana.
[01:48:40]  But under federal law, it's referred to as marijuana.
[01:48:42]  A lot of the surveys use that.
[01:48:44]  So when I'm talking about those, you know, the laws or the surveys, I use marijuana, but I tend to use the term marijuana.
[01:48:51]  But I prefer to use the term cannabis.
[01:48:53]  I think you're exactly right there.
[01:48:55]  And with respect to terminology, you raised this issue of decriminalization.
[01:49:00]  And I think this is helpful to unpack this because it also matters a lot when we talk about reforms with respect to psychedelics.
[01:49:09]  So in the drug policy world, when we talk about decriminalization, we're typically only talking about making possession of small amounts a non-criminal offense.
[01:49:22]  So as opposed to being a felony or misdemeanor, maybe it's something more like a citation or traffic ticket.
[01:49:28]  It doesn't make possession legal, but it just kind of reduces the, you know, eliminates the criminal penalties.
[01:49:33]  That's decriminalization.
[01:49:35]  When we talk about legalization, we're typically talking about legalizing some form of supply for adults.
[01:49:42]  And so they're very different.
[01:49:43]  We've got, you know, there's the research on decriminalization is very different than the research on legalization.
[01:49:50]  But, you know, as I've been doing more work on psychedelics policy, I see that there are a lot of people that use the term decriminalization to describe everything, whether it be legalization or if the local government just decides that they're going to make it a low priority to enforce the law for certain psychedelic offenses, what we would call depenalization.
[01:50:11]  I've seen people refer to that as decriminalization.
[01:50:14]  So one of the things I'm trying to do in that space is get people to be more specific.
[01:50:17]  Because if you think decriminalization means this, and I think it means that, it makes it a lot harder to have a productive conversation.
[01:50:24]  And with respect to hemp, yes, I mean, hemp had been used for rope and for a lot of other products for, you know, for centuries.
[01:50:32]  Then, you know, the synthetics came in and it turned out to be more economical to use some of these other, you know, some of these other synthetic products or alternatives.
[01:50:41]  But there is, but there are large hemp markets for fabrics and for hemp crete.
[01:50:47]  And so that was one of the things that in 2018 as part of the federal farm bill, what they were trying to do with that is, you know, because hemp and what we might call marijuana cannabis, it's all come from the same plant, cannabis sativa-L.
[01:51:03]  And what they were trying to do is create a distinction saying, okay, this is what we would call marrow, this is what's defined as marijuana or cannabis, and it's illegal under federal law, but here's the hemp products that could be used for industrial purposes.
[01:51:16]  And so what they did is they said, if that plant contains less than or equal to 0.3% delta 9 THC, once again, that's the main psychoactive component of cannabis.
[01:51:28]  If it's less than or equal that, we're going to call it hemp, and it's going to be exempt from the Control Substances Act.
[01:51:35]  But industry saw that and said, well, okay, well, if I have a product that has, you know, from hemp that's less than or equal to 0.3% delta 9 THC, then that might be legal under federal law.
[01:51:49]  And so, I mean, think about this.
[01:51:50]  You take a little gummy that might be four, you know, four grams.
[01:51:54]  If that could be less than or equal to 0.3% Delta IX THC, that could still have 12 milligrams of THC, which is going to affect most people, a lot of people, especially those that don't use very often.
[01:52:06]  And so that's kind of why you've seen this proliferation of these intoxicating hemp products in many parts of the country.
[01:52:13]  I mean, states have different regulations.
[01:52:15]  And it's not just the Delta IX.
[01:52:17]  What they've been able to do is from the hemp, which is exempt from the Control Substances Act, from the hemp, they can, you know, they'll produce the CBD.
[01:52:27]  And from the CBD, you can then synthesize to create Delta-8 THC, Delta-10, some of these other cannabinoids.
[01:52:34]  And so that's why you're kind of seeing this really kind of take off, especially in some states which haven't legalized for medical or non-medical purposes.
[01:52:43]  Sue from Grand Rapids, Michigan, an independent.
[01:52:46]  You're next.
[01:52:47]  Good morning, Sue.
[01:52:48]  Good morning.
[01:52:49]  Hey, it seems I have a lot of sympathy for the veterans today.
[01:52:58]  So some of the earlier comments about what is accessible from nature, the woman who just called, I totally agree.
[01:53:10]  My point of view would be this.
[01:53:12]  You talk about, you and your guest rather has spoken about problems with different reactions to these drugs.
[01:53:25]  And I just want to point out to you about research and science.
[01:53:30]  Do you know that as consumers we have a barrage of advertising and these advertisings for pharmaceuticals of various types are declaratory statements of harm and also they are founded on black box warnings?
[01:53:52]  We have synthetic drugs out there now that are quite harmful to people, sold in the masses.
[01:54:01]  And so I find the politics of our generation and the pharmaceutical, the science, the making new markets for new drugs totally antithetical.
[01:54:16]  I am a supporter of Mother Earth, and that's where we get our original sources.
[01:54:23]  This is what the people want.
[01:54:25]  They want to rely on nature and not on some made-up new synthetic drug.
[01:54:34]  I mean, I'm so tired of this.
[01:54:35]  I'm sure we all are and the legalities behind it and the whole thing.
[01:54:39]  All right, let's let Bo respond to this.
[01:54:43]  Sue, you're right.
[01:54:44]  I mean, what is it?
[01:54:46]  It's only the United States and New Zealand that allow this kind of direct to consumer marketing for pharmaceuticals.
[01:54:52]  You don't see this in most other countries.
[01:54:54]  And I'm like you, I'm sick of seeing this.
[01:54:57]  But this advertising part is really interesting because this has come up in the conversations about rescheduling cannabis from Schedule I to Schedule III.
[01:55:09]  And part of it is, and we didn't really get into this too much, but by moving from Schedule I to Schedule III, that would allow some of these cannabis businesses to deduct normal business expenses from their federal taxes.
[01:55:25]  Because right now, if it's a Schedule I or a Schedule II drugs, they can't do that.
[01:55:29]  So by moving it to Schedule III, that's going to be a big tax break for a lot of these cannabis companies.
[01:55:36]  And in the public health community, there are actually some concerns that, okay, they're going to have more money.
[01:55:42]  They're going to advertise more, and then they can deduct those advertising expenses.
[01:55:46]  So some of the public health folks are a bit worried that this move could potentially increase the amount of advertising that people see about cannabis.
[01:55:56]  I'm not necessarily weighing cannabis advertising versus pharmaceuticals, but I do think that you're right.
[01:56:02]  When we're having these conversations about drug policy in general, I think it's really important to step back and think about what happens with respect to commercialization and advertising.
[01:56:13]  And as I mentioned at the beginning of, you know, at the beginning of this call, if you go outside of the United States with respect to cannabis, there's much more interest in some of these middle ground non-commercial options.
[01:56:30]  Andrew from Red Bank, New Jersey, a Democrat.
[01:56:33]  Good morning, Andrew.
[01:56:35]  Good morning.
[01:56:37]  Pleasure to be on.
[01:56:38]  I got to stop looking at the TV because there's a delay.
[01:56:41]  It's confusing.
[01:56:42]  I just want to give you a little bit of background on myself and then make a comment.
[01:56:47]  I was in the pharmaceutical business for 30 years as a researcher.
[01:56:53]  Significant drugs came out of that work.
[01:56:55]  A significant company came out of that work.
[01:56:58]  I retired and then started a cannabis business in my hometown.
[01:57:02]  So I own a recreational cannabis business.
[01:57:06]  My comment is that the guests and a lot of callers are utterly confused.
[01:57:16]  And sadly, the so-called expert from the RAND Institute is confused.
[01:57:23]  There are so many misconceptions.
[01:57:25]  Number one, and I got to start with this one, is potency.
[01:57:29]  Okay, I'm a chemist.
[01:57:30]  When a drug is developed, its potency is determined by the amount of milligrams in the tablet.
[01:57:37]  So you have a 5 milligram tablet, you have a 10 milligram tablet, you have a 20 milligram tablet, you potentially have a 50 milligram tablet.
[01:57:44]  Cannabis is no different.
[01:57:47]  There's no risk of a higher potency cannabis product compared to a 50 milligram drug or a 5 milligram.
[01:57:55]  Andrew, we've got one minute left in the program, so I'm going to give you one more line and then have Bo come in here and respond.
[01:58:02]  Okay, all I would conclude is that please, when you're speaking about cannabis as a medicine, please be careful.
[01:58:10]  There is a lot of work being done on it that is very legitimate.
[01:58:13]  Unfortunately, it's been delayed because of the CSA.
[01:58:16]  But I would just ask you: look at policy on alcohol versus cannabis.
[01:58:21]  Thank you.
[01:58:23]  All right, you've got 30 seconds there, Bo.
[01:58:25]  Any response?
[01:58:26]  Yeah, this idea of let's regulate cannabis like alcohol kind of assumes that we do a good job of regulating alcohol.
[01:58:34]  And I don't think we do.
[01:58:37]  You've got advertisements all over the place.
[01:58:40]  The prices are too low.
[01:58:41]  The industry fights against taxes.
[01:58:43]  So I think the caller's right.
[01:58:44]  I think when you start thinking about whether or not we're talking about alternatives for cannabis or for various psychedelics, I think looking at what we've done with alcohol and deciding whether or not we want to go down that route or do something else, I think that's an important question.
[01:59:00]  All right, we'll have to leave it there.
[01:59:02]  We're out of time.
[01:59:02]  Brands Drug and Policy Research Center, Bo Kilmer, thank you so much for joining us this morning to talk about the administration's latest efforts on reclassifying certain substances.
[01:59:13]  Thanks for having me, Desna.
[01:59:15]  And that's all the time we have today.
[01:59:16]  Another edition of Washington Journal comes your way at 7 a.m. Eastern tomorrow morning.
[01:59:23]  Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen will brief reporters on funding for immigration enforcement activities.
[01:59:29]  Scheduled to start in a few minutes.
[01:59:31]  We'll get you there live when the Secretary begins his remarks.

=== Bridging American Political Divide (02:49) ===

[01:59:37]  Best ideas and best practices can be found anywhere.
[01:59:40]  We have to listen so we can govern better.
[01:59:42]  Democracy depends on heavy doses of civility.
[01:59:45]  You can fight and still be friendly.
[01:59:47]  Bridging the divide in American politics.
[01:59:50]  You know, you may not agree with Le Dokron on everything, but you can find areas where you do agree.
[01:59:53]  He's a pretty likable guy as well.
[01:59:55]  Chris Kins and I are actually friends.
[01:59:56]  He votes wrong all the time, but we're actually friends.
[01:59:59]  A horrible secret that Scott and I have is that we actually respect each other.
[02:00:02]  We all don't hate each other.
[02:00:04]  You two actually kind of like each other.
[02:00:06]  These are the kinds of secrets we'd like to expose.
[02:00:08]  It's nice to be with a member who knows what they're talking about.
[02:00:11]  You guys did agree to the civility, all right?
[02:00:13]  He owes my son $10 from a bed for the family.
[02:00:16]  He's the vice president.
[02:00:17]  Fork it over.
[02:00:19]  That's fighting words right there.
[02:00:20]  I'm glad I'm not in charge of it.
[02:00:22]  I'm thrilled to be on the show with him.
[02:00:23]  There are not shows like this, right?
[02:00:25]  Incentivizing that relationship.
[02:00:28]  Ceasefire, Friday nights on C-SPAN.
[02:00:37]  Get C-SPAN wherever you are with C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app that puts you at the center of democracy, live and on demand.
[02:00:47]  Keep up with the day's biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from the U.S. Congress, White House events, the courts, campaigns, and more from the world of politics, all at your fingertips.
[02:00:59]  Catch the latest episodes of Washington Journal.
[02:01:02]  Find scheduling information for C-SPAN's TV and radio networks, plus a variety of compelling podcasts.
[02:01:08]  The C-SPAN Now app is available at the Apple Store and Google Play.
[02:01:13]  Download it for free today.
[02:01:15]  C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
[02:01:22]  The Associated Press and others are reporting on the death of philanthropist, media mogul, and environmental advocate Ted Turner.
[02:01:28]  The Ohio-born businessman was a pioneer in news television, founding CNN in 1980, the first 24-hour news network.
[02:01:36]  Starting with his father's billboard company, Ted Turner purchased radio and later TV stations, launching the first satellite channel in 1976.
[02:01:45]  He later merged his broadcast holdings with Time Warner for $7.5 billion.
[02:01:50]  As a philanthropist, he founded the United Nations Foundation and advocated for the elimination of nuclear weapons.
[02:01:56]  His environmental activism led to his becoming one of the foremost landowners in the United States, and he played a crucial role in reintroducing bison to the American West.
[02:02:06]  He was 87 years old.
[02:02:08]  We heard reaction to the news of Mr. Turner's passing from Walter Isaacson, former CEO of CNN.
[02:02:15]  He made the comments at the Sir Harry Evans Investigative Journalism Summit, also known as Truth Tellers, in London.
[02:02:22]  Here's a look at his remarks.

=== Walter Isaacson Journalism Career (00:32) ===

[02:02:26]  We have you with us to talk about that extraordinary career.
[02:02:30]  So welcome.
[02:02:31]  And all those ne'er-do-wells that I had to cover.
[02:02:34]  To be discussed.
[02:02:36]  Hello, everyone.
[02:02:37]  It's great to be with you.
[02:02:38]  I host the Michelle Hussain Show podcast at Bloomberg Weekend, where we talk to newsmakers, cultural figures, and people who can deconstruct our world.
[02:02:47]  It is going to be Walter Isaacson who I'm asking on stage with you today to let us into his world, which is one of journalism, of of your own writing, Walter, and of history.