| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| Angela's Ashes sold close to 10 million books worldwide. | ||
| It was translated into 24 languages. | ||
| McCord, who was born in New York City, moved with his family to Limerick, Ireland for his childhood years. | ||
| Frank McCord died at age 78 in 2009 of melanoma cancer. | ||
| He was a guest on the BookNotes television program on September 19, 1996. | ||
|
unidentified
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We revisit an interview with Frank McCord and his book, Angela's Ashes, a memoir. | |
| BookNotes Plus with our host, Brian Lamb, is available wherever you get your podcasts and on the C-SPAN Now app. | ||
| It is the fifth anniversary of the events of January 6th on the Capitol building. | ||
| Here to talk about that and her new book, Taking a Look at That Day is Mary Claire Jelanik. | ||
| She is the author of Storm at the Capitol, an oral history on January 6th. | ||
| Mary Claire Jelanik, welcome to C-SPAN. | ||
| Thanks for having me. | ||
| What prompted the book? | ||
| Well, I'm a reporter. | ||
| I cover Congress. | ||
| I was there that day and I covered the events ever since in Congress. | ||
| I had a lot of stories that people had told me and that, you know, just through research and covering it. | ||
| And so an oral history really seemed like a good way to sort of get some of that down and put things together kind of all together for the first time, looking at all of these different perspectives and how people experience it. | ||
| What does an oral history offer in terms of the narrative and the story you tell? | ||
| Well, I think an oral history is particularly good for this event because there are a lot of different people who were there with different perspectives. | ||
| And what the book does is take all of those voices and put them together and sort of show a complete narrative of the day. | ||
| But it's also not, it's meant to be a definitive, non-partisan, collective history of the day. | ||
| It's not my narrative or a partisan narrative or anybody's narrative. | ||
| It's really the narrative from all of the people together who, not all of the people, but the people who are in the book, what they saw and what they experienced. | ||
| So in talking about that, you said even the reporting for this book really started for you in the moments right after the event. | ||
| Can you elaborate on that? | ||
| That's right. | ||
| Or even during the event, I was in the house when it was happening. | ||
| I ended up in the house gallery and I was, you know, sort of crouching for safety as people were trying to knock down, you know, trying to beat down the doors below. | ||
| And as we were evacuating, I started interviewing lawmakers, as did other reporters who were there. | ||
| So some of the, you know, some of the narratives that I have go back to those moments. | ||
| So I really have been, you know, I sort of, whenever I do interviews in the Capitol, I try to, if I have time, get somebody's January 6th story because everyone who is there has a story. | ||
| And so really tried to collect those as much as I could. | ||
| You've said you talked to lawmakers, but your book also includes those who participated in the riots, law enforcement that was involved. | ||
| Why did you think that was an important aspect in putting this together? | ||
| Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's really important to have everyone's perspective. | ||
| Obviously, the police, who were many of whom were injured and beaten as people pushed through them to get in. | ||
| But also the rioters, I think having their perspective and really trying to understand why a lot of them were there and, you know, what they were thinking as it was happening, I think that's really important to have a complete understanding of this day. | ||
| Since you were there that day, in the events that happened, tell a little bit about where you were after the attack started. | ||
| Yeah, so I was in the house and they evacuated us along with about three dozen lawmakers who were hiding up or who were, I'm sorry, they weren't hiding. | ||
| They were sitting up in the gallery during the certification of Joe Biden's victory because of COVID. | ||
| So, you know, this is really unusual that there would be any lawmakers in the House gallery, but they were. | ||
| And so, once people came to the doors and they were beating on the doors and broke the glass in the main doors of the house, they evacuated all of us to one area. | ||
| So, we were all sort of trying to hide under the seats. | ||
| Some police were yelling at us to duck down and hide as we were sort of watching this scene unfold down on the main floor. | ||
| And the rest of the house had evacuated. | ||
| So, it was really only a sort of small group of people up there. | ||
| And we did eventually get out. | ||
| But, you know, there were rioters surrounding the chamber on all sides. | ||
| So, it was a tense moment. | ||
| This is Mary Claire Jelanik joining us, the book, Storm at the Capitol, an Oral History of January 6th. | ||
| If you want to ask her questions, Democrats, 202-748-8000, Republicans, 202-748-8001, and Independents, 202-748-8002. | ||
| You can text us your comments or questions at 202-748-8003. | ||
| I'm going to read a little bit from the book. | ||
| This is from Jessica Watkins, U.S. Army veteran and bar owner at Oathkeepers, Ohio. | ||
| She said this about the events of the day. | ||
| So, before we left the ellipse, like the crowd was real, real thick. | ||
| And then, like, everybody, like literally everybody, just started pulling out their phones. | ||
| They were like, Pence betrayed us. | ||
| Pence betrayed us like we have to go. | ||
| That's the quote. | ||
| Tell us a little bit more about the interview that produced this. | ||
| Well, let me be clear: that is actually not from an interview, that is from a court document. | ||
| So, this book is about half my own interviews and about half what people testified on their behalf in court, which is that some people talked to the FBI. | ||
| And so, I did take a lot of public records as well. | ||
| So, that is from her trial. | ||
| And so, you know, I did find it very interesting sort of what people were thinking on the mall as they some people decided to walk to the Capitol, a lot of them with different motivations. | ||
| Some people were just walking to see what was going to happen. | ||
| Some people came to Washington with plans for violence or plans to disrupt the certification. | ||
| So, I think what you saw was a mob of people who really had a lot of diverse motivations as they got there. | ||
| And as it really sort of evolved into something much more violent once they got there and started to push into the building. | ||
| In talking to those participants, was there a common theme that emerged as far as what you learned from talking for them, why they did it, why they participated? | ||
| Is something that stands out to you? | ||
| Well, I think that sort of idea that there really are a lot of different types of people who were there. | ||
| There are a lot of people, especially those who are willing to talk about their experiences, who do say they sort of fell down a rabbit hole of internet misinformation and really felt strongly in that moment. | ||
| And some of them now say, you know, understand that what they thought was not correct. | ||
| Some of them still believe it very strongly. | ||
| And, you know, there really is a diverse still, you know, people who regret what they did and some people who really don't regret it at all and believe it was justified. | ||
| We have some calls for you. | ||
| This is from Jerry, who starts us off. | ||
| Jerry joins us from Detroit, Democrats line for Mary Claire Jelanik, Associated Press Reporter, author of the book Storm at the Capitol. | ||
| Jerry, hello. | ||
|
unidentified
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Hello. | |
| Good morning, Pedro. | ||
| And Ms. Jelanik can pronounce her name. | ||
| Jalanik. | ||
|
unidentified
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And Jelanik. | |
| And greetings here again from Motown. | ||
| I was wondering if you were familiar at all with a lot of the conspiracy theories that are promoted by Trump supporters regarding January 6th. | ||
| For instance, you know, the lie that Trump offered the National Guard and Nancy Pelosi turning it down, even though she wasn't head of security, the lie about alleged FBI agents at the Capitol. | ||
| And I don't know if you heard a lot of the other comparisons, you know, like they were trying to compare January 6th and Black Lives Matter and a lot of the other stuff. | ||
| You know, they're trying to deny that Donald Trump caused the insurrection and try to blame it on anyone and everyone plus him. | ||
| And I'm sure you're going to be hearing a lot of it from Trump supporters colleagues because those aren't those conspiracy theories out there. | ||
| Well, I think we see with most anything these days, there are a lot of people with a lot of different points of view and a lot of conspiracy theories can blossom about pretty much anything. | ||
| But I think that's sort of the reason that I wanted to do this as an oral history. | ||
| It's not my take on the day or anyone's take on the day. | ||
| It's everyone who is in the book, more than 150 voices. | ||
| It's their take on the day. | ||
| And, you know, talking to people about exactly what happened, I interviewed Nancy Pelosi's chief of staff about, and Nancy Pelosi herself, I interviewed for the book about the National Guard. | ||
| You know, she and Mitch McConnell did approve it after the fighting started. | ||
| You know, there's, I think that the only real way to sort of make clear exactly what happened is to ask the people who are there themselves and do that reporting and get those facts out there. | ||
| In five years since the event, in your mind, have all the questions been answered? | ||
| Have we learned everything that we should have learned about the day, or are there still unanswered questions in your mind? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| I mean, I don't know. | ||
| I think that we know the set of facts of what happened, but I do think that we're still processing it in a lot of ways. | ||
| Maybe the significance of it. | ||
| There's certainly different people who have different perspectives on that, but there isn't a lot of debate of the facts of what happened, that people broke into the building and temporarily stopped a certification of Biden's victory. | ||
| And, you know, and the violence that happened, I mean, that's something that was, to me, important to make clear is how violent the day was. | ||
| I think there, you know, some people try to downplay that violence, but it was a violent day. | ||
| And, you know, while I think we know that set of facts of what happened, I do think that, you know, we are still processing it and reckoning with it in a lot of ways. | ||
| Let's hear from Mark. | ||
| Mark is in Maryland Republican line for our guests. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hey, good morning. | |
| So a couple of things. | ||
| You didn't get off to a good start by using the word misinformation. | ||
| That's a Marxist euphemism for sediment and shut up. | ||
| It makes you sound like a villain in an Orwell novel. | ||
| As far as January 6th goes, as Nancy Pelosi herself put it, the facts aren't important. | ||
| What's important is setting the narrative. | ||
| Those are her own words. | ||
| She said that on camera. | ||
| The other thing is, is there are two entrances to the Capitol. | ||
| All the footage we saw was from one side of the Capitol, and that was the side that the 274 FBI agents dressed as Trump supporters were on, which we now know. | ||
| And if you remember, Christopher Ray testified, oh, I don't know if there was anybody there, or if there was, I couldn't give you a number. | ||
| We now know that it was 274 FBI agents. | ||
| And I know most Americans have never been in the Capitol, but let me tell you something. | ||
| The doors to the Capitol are held by electronic locks. | ||
| They only open from the inside. | ||
| January 6th was an inside job. | ||
| And for five years, we've had to hear leftists boohooing about this was the day that democracy almost died. | ||
| Kind of funny when you have an imaginary problem. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Okay, Caller, thanks. | ||
| You know, I think when you're saying sit down and shut up, that's actually something that I really wanted to get those voices of the rioters in the book. | ||
| And there are, you know, dozens of rioters quoted here, too, and their perspectives on that. | ||
| One thing I do want to take issue with is that there were a lot of perspectives. | ||
| There's a lot of footage of probably every entrance to the Capitol where we can see what the violence was like that day. | ||
| There is an extensive trove of video and photographic evidence of people violently breaking into the building through doors and windows and all sorts of different entrances. | ||
| So people did definitely break into the building that day. | ||
| What information do we know about his claims about the FBI's involvement in that day? | ||
| Yeah, well, so I mean, I believe that Kash Patel has addressed that at some point and that some of those FBI agents were there after the violence began. | ||
| I don't really address that in the book because it's afterward, right? | ||
| And this is really a chronicle of the 24 hours of the day. | ||
| But I know that the Department of Justice has looked into those claims and I don't believe that they have in any way proven them. | ||
| And in framing the book, you do frame it hour by hour. | ||
| I guess that's a simple way to kind of go about it, but was there intent in why you chose that approach? | ||
| I just thought it was the most straightforward way to go. | ||
| And there were really, there was so much going on every hour of that day. | ||
| And there were really sort of three hours in the middle of the day that were the longest chapters because the most happened there. | ||
| But it really was, you know, to try to break it down chronologically was interesting to me because in a lot of ways doing that, I learned a lot about what happened. | ||
| And I sort of, you know, I'd been reporting on it for a few years. | ||
| And it really was interesting to me to find out, you know, some, I didn't even realize some things that happened and when they happened and exactly how people got into the building. | ||
| That was sort of an interesting thing for me to reconstruct is exactly how the mob kind of got toward the building and found holes in the police lines and, you know, sort of knew where to go in some cases to break in and, you know, try to stop the count. | ||
| Here's another quote from the book. | ||
| This is from Officer Michael Fanon of the Metropolitan Police Department saying, they ripped off my badge, they grabbed my radio, they seized the ammunition that was secured to my body. | ||
| They began to beat me with their fists and what was felt like hard metal objects. | ||
| At one point, I came face to face with an attacker who repeatedly lunged for me and attempted to remove my firearm. | ||
| I heard chanting from some in the crowd, get his gun and kill him with his own gun. | ||
| I was aware enough to recognize I was at risk of being stripped of and killed with my own firearm. | ||
| I was electrocuted again and again with a taser. | ||
| I'm sure I was screaming, but I don't think I could ever hear my own voice. | ||
| Can you elaborate on that quote? | ||
| Yeah, and that is part of the sort of the kind of big final climactic fight that there were several, especially Metropolitan Police officers in a tunnel that was basically where Joe Biden was to walk out and be inaugurated two weeks later. | ||
| And he did walk out and was inaugurated two weeks later. | ||
| And there was sort of a bottleneck in that tunnel as thousands of rioters were kind of amassing on the front and were fighting these officers to try to get in sort of the front central doors on the West Front. | ||
| And the violence in that area, there was violence all over the Capitol that day. | ||
| But that was sort of the most violent fight that there was. | ||
| And that is one of several stories of police officers who were beaten, tased, and with found objects and with polls with American flags. | ||
| They were sprayed in the face. | ||
| There's one officer in the book who, one rioter sort of pulled out his mask and another sprayed inside and then snapped it back on his face so it was trapped. | ||
| And one thing that was really most surprising to me in interviewing those officers and also reading their testimony, which some of it is testimony from court and from Congress, is that a lot of them thought they were going to die. | ||
| Almost all of them in the book really said at some point they thought that this might be it for them. | ||
| And that's pretty extraordinary to have such a violent fight outside the U.S. Capitol and a lot of officers who really thought had been through a lot of stuff and thought this was going to be the moment for them. | ||
| And since I told you they were scared. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, though they were definitely scared. | ||
| I think they were definitely scared. | ||
| And that kind of fighting, this sort of hand-to-hand combat that they were facing on this day isn't really what they're used to. | ||
| You know, a police officer, if you think of a police officer's job, that's not usually what they're doing. | ||
| So it really was extraordinary. | ||
| And a lot of them are still, I have an article on the APYR this weekend interviewing some of the officers five years later. | ||
| And some of them are still really trying to process this and still hurting. | ||
| Mary Claire Jalanik is joining us. | ||
| She reports on Congress with the Associated Press and her book, Taking a Look at the Events of January 6th. | ||
| We'll hear from John. | ||
| John joins us from New York. | ||
| Democrats line, you're on the air. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
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Democrat, I voted for Trump, but let me just say that what Trump said that called people vermin that are poisoning the blood of this country, he was talking about these people, or he should have been. | |
| Every one of these people that stormed the Capitol is a damn fool. | ||
| Our elections in this country are legitimate. | ||
| We're not some third world country that can't conduct an election. | ||
| I mean, every one of these stupid people that went to this thing, they're wrong. | ||
| Biden won. | ||
| He won by 8 million. | ||
| And the Republicans recounted and recounted, and it came up the same. | ||
| There were minor, very minor incidences of people voting two or three times, whatever. | ||
| It was determined it wouldn't have changed a thing. | ||
| So how dare these people question the legitimacy of America to hold an election? | ||
| They are truly the vermin that is poisoning the blood of this country. | ||
| John in New York. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, I think that there are some people who were there that day who now acknowledge that they were, you know, that Biden did win that election, just as Trump won in 2024 and he won in 2016. | ||
| But, you know, some of them still do strongly believe that the election was stolen in 2020, and it was not stolen. | ||
| You know, there were election officials, bipartisan election officials from every single state that certified that election. | ||
| William Barr, Trump's own attorney general, said there was not enough investigated this and said there was not enough fraud. | ||
| And there were dozens of lawsuits that were dismissed or rejected. | ||
| So there's substantial evidence that it was a legitimate election and it was not stolen. | ||
| Here's a quote. | ||
| This is Jason Dolan, a former Marine oath keepers in Florida, saying it felt like Congress having certified of what I saw, what I saw as an illegitimate election, installing what I thought was an unelected president, was committing treason to the United States. | ||
| And so I was chanting treason. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, I think I thought that was really important to get those perspectives in there. | ||
| People really strongly felt that what they were doing is right because an election had been stolen. | ||
| So, you know, it really is interesting to see, you know, kind of what they were thinking. | ||
| And some people have now say they realize they were wrong. | ||
| And still a lot of people do think that the election was stolen and that the rioters were justified. | ||
| This is from Los Angeles, Independent Line. | ||
| David, hello, you're on with our guest. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, hi. | |
| I'm just equally as upset as a previous caller. | ||
| The Trump supporters would have you guys believe that Ashley Babbitt was an innocent unarmed bystander to posed no threat. | ||
| But the truth of the matter is, she was part of an angry mob that was screaming, kill Mike Pitts, kill Nancy Pelosi. | ||
| And they were breaking down the breaching the barricade, the last door to the congressional chambers. | ||
| And the Capitol police officer threatened. | ||
| He said, don't break that door down. | ||
| Now, if you, one person by themselves would probably pose no threat. | ||
| But when you're looking at hundreds of people angry that are beating down a door coming into the congressional chambers, the Capitol Police obviously had no other alternative but to fire a shot. | ||
| And unfortunately, Ashley Babbitt was a victim. | ||
| And it amazes me at the level of stupidity and ignorance of your Trump supporters calling in and saying that she was innocent. | ||
| That's just simply not true. | ||
| Okay, that's David in Los Angeles, Mr. Lonik. | ||
| So that scene that he was just describing is extensively detailed in the book. | ||
| I was actually in the House chamber when she was trying to get in. | ||
| Of course, we didn't know that at the time. | ||
| We heard the shot that eventually did kill her. | ||
| I mean, it's obviously a tragedy that she died. | ||
| Michael Byrd, who was the officer who shot her, I use an interview that he did. | ||
| He's done one interview sort of explaining himself. | ||
| And I have that. | ||
| I also have some of the rioters who were there in the situation and the police officers who were trying to defend the doors sort of helplessly as people were starting to break in. | ||
| And Michael Byrd really explained how, you know, he said his training sort of had led up to this day. | ||
| But obviously, there's a lot of people who say that she shouldn't have been shot. | ||
| But when he shot her, they did, you know, SWAT teams came in and the people were cleared away. | ||
| And there were still members in the House at the time. | ||
| So, you know, that is a situation that has been discussed a lot in recent years. | ||
| And I tried to just sort of bring all the different perspectives that people had in that moment and use those voices to explain what happened. | ||
| Enrico Terrio put out on X that there'll be some type of protest or a march today for Ashley Babbitt saying, Join us as we march for Ashley on January 6th. | ||
| We also march in the memory of those who passed away five years ago. | ||
| A beautiful life was taken from us, a veteran and a patriot. | ||
| So they asked that those who are able to please do so. | ||
| He adds, this will be a patriotic and peaceful march. | ||
| If you have any intention of causing trouble, we ask you to stay home. | ||
| Yeah, so I actually didn't know that. | ||
| So is that new? | ||
| But yeah, I mean, there are always protests around the Capitol. | ||
| We've seen, you know, Enrique Tario and others have been to the Capitol and in the area since they were pardoned by the president. | ||
| And so, you know, usually these protests are peaceful, and, you know, hopefully that one will be too. | ||
|
unidentified
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I think that C-SPAN is as unbiased as you can get. | |
| You are so fair. | ||
| I don't know how anybody can say otherwise. | ||
| You guys do the most important work for everyone in this country. | ||
| I love C-SPAN because I get to hear all the voices. | ||
| You bring these divergent viewpoints and you present both sides of an issue and you allow people to make up their own minds. | ||
| I absolutely love C-SPAN. | ||
| I love to hear both sides. | ||
| I've watched C-SPAN every morning and it is unbiased. | ||
| And you bring in factual information for the callers to understand where they are in their comments. | ||
| This is probably the only place that we can hear honest opinion of Americans across the country. | ||
| You guys at C-SPAN are doing such a wonderful job of allowing free exchange of ideas without a lot of interruptions. | ||
| Thank you, C-SPAN, for being a light in the dark. | ||
| Wednesday, Minnesota government officials testify at a hearing examining the use of federal funds for social services in their home state. |