CSPAN - Washington Journal 01/05/2026

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Jan. 5, 2026 06:59-10:04 - CSPAN

03:04:58

Washington Journal 01/05/2026

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Main

david bier

cato 20:24

mimi geerges

cspan 39:05

niall stanage

hill 24:37

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@geo motion

00:39

brian lamb

cspan 00:34

chris murphy

sen/d 01:43

donald j trump

admin 01:15

gillian turner

fox 00:34

hakeem jeffries

rep/d 01:16

jim himes

rep/d 01:17

kristen welker

nbc 00:50

kristi noem

admin 00:41

lindsey graham

sen/r 01:54

marco rubio

admin 02:25

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margaret brennan

cbs 00:23

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Comcast supports C-SPAN as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy.
@geo motion ▲ ● ▼		Venezuela's deposed president, Nicolas Maduro, is scheduled to appear before a federal judge in New York at noon today to be formally notified about the charges against him.
		Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, were seized by U.S. forces during a pre-dawn raid Saturday in Caracas and brought to New York.
		It will be their first court appearance on criminal charges since they were extracted in a U.S. military operation on Saturday.
		They'll face charges of narcoterrorism tied to alleged trafficking of tons of cocaine into the United States.
		Continue to follow the story here on the C-SPAN networks and read the indictment at c-span.org.
unidentified		Coming up on C-SPAN's Washington Journal, we'll preview the year ahead in Washington and stories to watch on Capitol Hill and the White House with Niall Stanich, White House columnist for The Hill, then the Cato Institute's David Beer on the Trump administration's deportation and immigration agenda in the year ahead.
unidentified		Washington Journal starts now.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		It's Monday, January 5th.
		Over the weekend, the administration carried out military strikes in Venezuela, followed by the capture of Nicolas Maduro, who is now in federal custody in New York.
		He's scheduled to make his first appearance today at noon in Manhattan.
		President Trump told reporters last night about Venezuela's government, quote, we're in charge.
		We're going to run everything.
		The United Nations Security Council is also meeting today to address the situation.
		This morning, we're asking you, do you support or oppose the administration's actions in Venezuela and why?
		Here are the numbers.
		Democrats, 202748, 8000.
		Republicans, 202748, 8001.
		Independents, 202748, 8002.
		You can send us a text to 202-748-8003.
		Include your first name and your city-state.
		And you can post to social media, facebook.com/slash C-SPAN and X at C-SPANWJ.
		Welcome to today's Washington Journal.
		We're glad you're with us.
		Let's start with the New York Times.
		This is the headline.
		Seeming to pivot.
		Rubio says U.S. will not run Venezuela.
		Oil quarantine will keep grip on Caracas.
		It says that Secretary of State Rubio on Sunday appeared to pivot away from President Trump's assertion a day earlier that the United States would, quote, run Venezuela, emphasizing instead that the administration would keep a military quarantine in place on the country's oil exports to exert leverage on the new leadership there.
		When asked how the U.S. planned to govern Venezuela, Mr. Rubio did not lay out a plan for a U.S. occupation authority like the one that George W. Bush administration put in place in Baghdad during the Iraq War, but instead spoke of coercing a Venezuelan government run by allies of the jailed leader Nicolas Maduro to make policy changes.
		And here is the front page of the Wall Street Journal with this headline, U.S. raid leaves Venezuela in confusion.
		It says, after Maduro ouster, Trump keeps regime in place while issuing threats to successor.
		Says that President Trump ticked off a list of reasons for his decision to capture and arrest Venezuelan President Maduro.
		He talked about the Maduro regime sending illicit drugs and gangs to the U.S. and nationalizing American oil company assets.
		One thing that wasn't mentioned, a desire to restore democracy in Venezuela.
		It says instead, Trump said after Saturday's raid, the U.S. would run the country indefinitely until a, quote, safe, proper, and judicious transition could be arranged.
		He didn't raise the prospect of elections.
		The president said, quote, it would be tough for the country's opposition leader, Maria Karina Machado, who won the Nobel Peace Prize last year, to play a major role, saying she lacked popularity.
		Instead, he expressed a willingness to work with Delcy Rodriguez, Maduro's vice president, a hardline socialist and regime stalwart.
		That is at the Wall Street Journal.
		Continue to look at the news throughout the program.
		But first, we'll talk to you.
		Here's Helen, Long Beach, California, Republican.
		Good morning, Helen.
unidentified		Good morning, Helen.
		Good morning.
		First of all, it's a lie that Trump had to go into Venezuela to stop the narco-trafficking.
		Second, it's false that he did it to capture Venezuela's oil and give it away to give it back to U.S. corporations.
		I think what's really going on is Trump is going to occupy, militarily occupy Venezuela, and he'll probably push militarily occupy Colombia.
		And the reason is has to do with, and I'm kind of conjecturing, but from what I have read, it has to do with the new development bank, BRICS, which is an acronym which stands for Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa.
		It's a new big player in the global economy.
		And its two main players are China, which is the biggest one, and Russia.
		This is a little bit of arm twisting with China and Russia in particular.
		I think Trump wants to be a part of this new development bank.
		It's growing in numbers and in wealth.
		It's got a lot of influence.
		It wants to supplant the U.S. dollar as a global economy, and it wants to insert itself as the currency for the global economy.
		I think Trump wants to cut a deal with them.
		He does have $800 million in cryptocurrency.
		He may have given me, wanted to have that bank incorporate his $800 million cryptocurrency, and they may have said no.
		I think he's arm twisting right now.
		And this is the immense power that the President of the United States has.
		He can go in and capture countries to get his deal from a country on the other side of the world.
		So, you know, I may be just conjecturing, but I think this is what's actually happening.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		We got that, Helen.
		And let's take a look at President Trump.
		He was on Air Force One last night coming back from Mar-a-Lago to Washington, D.C., and he spoke to reporters.
unidentified		The next question is: who's in charge of Venezuela right now?
		Have you spoken to the newly sworn-in president there, Rodriguez?
		And what are your thoughts on the entire situation when you said the U.S. would run Venezuela?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We're dealing with the people.
		We're dealing with the people that just got sworn in.
		And don't ask me who's in charge because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial.
unidentified		What does that mean?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We're in charge.
unidentified		Have you spoken with her?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We're in charge.
unidentified		Have you spoken with her?
		No, no, I haven't, but other people.
		Do you want to?
		Yeah, at the right time, I will.
		Did the U.S. give Del C. Roger you guys any guarantees in exchange for cooperating with your administration?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		No, but she's cooperating.
unidentified		Are you going to demand free and fair elections in the short term in Venezuela?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends what you're talking.
		We have to do one thing in Venezuela, bring it back.
		It's a dead country right now.
		It's a country that, frankly, we would have been if I had lost the election, we would have been a dead country.
		We would have been Venezuela and Steros.
		Venezuela right now is a dead country.
		We have to bring it back.
		And we're going to have to have big investments by the oil companies to bring back the infrastructure.
		And the oil companies are ready to go.
unidentified		They're going to go in.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		They're going to rebuild the infrastructure.
		You know, we built it to start off with many years ago.
		They took it away.
		You can't do that.
		And you can't do that with me.
		They did it with other presidents.
unidentified		How soon do you think an election can take place in Venezuela?
unidentified		How soon can an election take place?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we're looking more at getting it fixed, getting it ready first, because it's a mess.
		The country is a mess.
		It's been horribly run.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And that was a little hard to hear because of the noise of the jet, but he did mention American oil companies.
		And this is Axios with this headline, Trump's Big Bet on Venezuela's Oil and U.S. Companies.
		It says that President Trump's vision of American oil companies rebuilding Venezuela's broken petro sector creates his biggest test yet of the industry's tolerance for risk.
		Trump and other administration officials haven't been subtle about calling Venezuela's massive oil reserves a key reason for toppling President Maduro.
		Quote, this is a quote from Secretary of State Marco Rubio on NBC: Quote, you cannot continue to have the largest oil reserves in the world under the control of adversaries of the United States, but not benefiting the people of the country.
		And President Trump told reporters, quote, We're in the business of having countries around us that are viable and successful and where the oil is allowed to freely come out.
		It gets prices, it gets the prices down.
		That's good for our country.
		Wonder what you think about that.
		Here's Rosalynn in Plateville, Wisconsin.
		Democrat, go ahead, Rosalynn.
unidentified		Yes, it's Platteville, but yeah.
		Platteville.
		I am against this.
		And I think that the United States has forgotten about 1953 when Britain and the U.S. pulled a coup in Iran because they only wanted a fair portion of the proceeds for their oil.
		And what has happened?
		What did they do?
		They put in, it was a Democratic, moving towards a democratic country, overturned a democratic country, put in a dictatorship, the shore of Iran, and kept him there with military might.
		And in doing so, they sent the clear message not only to the countries in the Middle East, but also the countries in Latin America, that we, the United States, we are far from democracy when democracy benefits the United States.
		And if democracy does not benefit the United States, then we are not for it.
		And that is the signal that we are sending right now.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		So, Rosalyn, yes, that is in the 1950s.
		Iran's popular prime minister, Mohammad Mossad, was overthrown in a 1953 CIA and MI6-backed coup due to his nationalization of the British-controlled Anglo-Iranian oil company, now VP, and efforts to gain greater Iranian control over oil revenues that threatened Western interests.
		And the coup restored the Shah to greater power.
		Here's Rod in Ohio, Republican line.
		Hi, Rod.
unidentified		Morning, ma'am.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Morning.
unidentified		Yes, I'm fully in support of it.
		And I think we ought to do it on a broader scale.
		I mean, you know, I don't know how much the American people is going to see out of all these little maneuvers around the world.
		But still, I mean, these countries, they want to live by the sword.
		And the big eagle can come in and kill them with the sword.
		That's well.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Rod, when you say a broader scale, what do you think should be next, in your opinion?
unidentified		Anywhere around the world, this country was born and blood taking what we wanted.
		People seem to forget that.
		I mean, when the United States ever get to the point where we weren't taking what we needed for the people, unfortunately, that's the way this country was built, and that's the way it is.
		But we stopped somewhere along the line, worrying about our own people and worrying about everybody else.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Rod, do you think other strong countries, namely China and Russia, should take what they want?
		In other words, Russia should be free to take Ukraine and other countries as long as it can defeat them militarily.
		Should China take Taiwan?
unidentified		All the land.
		Whoever has the biggest sword, the biggest guns, that's the way it is.
		I mean, we're still animals.
		Our brains outgrew our bodies.
		We're still animals, our basic nature.
		So that's the way it is.
		We have to worry about our own people.
		Hopefully, that'll come around and the people will benefit.
		Like closing the borders, you've got to close the borders.
		Look, Rome.
		There's so many parallels between the United States and Rome.
		And you just got to cut it.
		Well, Rome did fall, Rod.
		Say again?
		Rome fell.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the Roman Empire is no longer here.
unidentified		Everything goes in cycles.
		Everything.
		The United States is not going to last forever.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Got your point there.
		Georgia in Gonzales, Louisiana, independent line.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning, Amy.
		How are you doing?
		Good.
		I am opposed to this situation.
		It does not make no sense to me that we cannot run our own country and support our own people.
		And yet we're going over there again to all in the beginning to stop three other countries.
		We are not the police of the United States of America.
		As far as the lady in California, it's called BRIC.
		It's B-R-I-C.
		It's not a bank.
		They deal in cryptocurrency, period.
		We are trying to get into the crypto business.
		We want all the aura.
		We want everything someone else has instead of protect our own people here.
		Yes, I'm agree with closing the border, but at the same time, we cannot run this country, and yet we're trying to run another country.
		So I guess it's okay to invade somebody else and let them do whatever they want to do to us because what goes around comes around.
		And we are going to fall very fast and very bad.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Georgia.
		And let's check in on Facebook.
		Here's Joan, who is opposed to the administration's actions.
		She says there are diplomatic channels that should be used.
		Can you imagine the outrage if another country arbitrarily carried out the same acts against the U.S. Democrats for Liberty said, it's like we learned nothing from Iraq and Afghanistan.
		And Tal said, it's what I voted for.
		Bob says, absolutely support.
		The people of Venezuela are celebrating in the streets.
		Meanwhile, the Democrats are demonstrating against it in America.
		Go figure.
		And Scott says, I would have only approved if, number one, Congress pre-approved it, which could have been easily done in this case.
		And two, the deposed Maria Carina Machado would be allowed to go back and take power.
		Charlie Brown says, oppose.
		War requires congressional approval.
		And we have actually for you Secretary of State, Marco Rubio from ABC's this week talking about the administration's plans for Venezuela.
unidentified		Take a look.
		But how does the United States intend to secure the oil fields?
		Won't that take U.S. troops?
marco rubio ▲ ● ▼		Well, ultimately, this is not about securing the oil fields.
		This is about ensuring that no sanctioned oil can come in and out until they make changes to the governance of that entire industry.
		Because right now, that industry is non-existent in the traditional way.
		These oil fields basically are pirate operations.
		People literally steal the oil from the ground.
		A handful of, that's how they hold this regime together.
		A handful of cronies benefit from this specific oil wells.
		They're producing at like 18% capacity because the equipment is all decrepit.
		And they basically pocket the money to their benefit.
		They sell the oil at a discount in global markets, you know, 40 cents on the dollar, 50 cents on the dollar, but all that money goes to them.
		Those oil fields have not benefited the people of Venezuela in over a decade.
		But they have made multi-millionaires, billionaires, out of just a handful of people, and that's what's held this regime together.
		That's what needs to be addressed.
		The way to address it to the benefit of the Venezuelan people is to get private companies that are not from Iran or somewhere else to go in, invest in the equipment that hasn't been invested in in 20 years because none of the profits that have been made from the oil have been reinvested.
		It's all been stolen.
		And that's going to take outside companies that come in and know how to do that.
		The people who do this stuff will know how to do it.
		But it all begins with dramatic changes on the way that the authorities that are in charge of that industry behave.
		And until those changes happen, this quarantine will remain in place.
unidentified		Chevron is the only American company working in Venezuela.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And that was Secretary Marco Rubio on yesterday's ABC program this week.
		And we're hearing from you.
		Charles, Forney, Texas, Democrat, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, I oppose because we started off with about drugs.
		And that was President Trump instead of bombing them both and say it was about the drugs.
		And now he gets on there Dave Bondis and says about their oil.
		He wants to take over oil.
		I mean, and it's no one going to benefit.
		No American is going to benefit about that oil.
		He's going to get his millionaire and billionaire friends to come in there and they're going to all make money.
		And South Valentine's making money as it is.
		Everywhere you go, they are there doing businesses.
		And he got billions of dollars he'd done made.
		And one party wants something that one will get on TV time.
		He don't take a salary.
		Why should you take a salary?
		I mean, you make $400,000 or $500,000 a year when you're getting $8 billion.
		It's basically $4 to $8 billion, him and his family, and got businesses everywhere you go.
		It's not about, and the bad part about it is this.
		The young kids are going to be the ones that go over there and have to fight sooner or later.
		And they're going to be the one to get killed in Maine.
		And while Trump and his cronies sit back and relax and make money.
		I mean, that's the bad part about it.
		I worry about them young kids that enjoy the service and going to want to be the one to go there and get killed.
		And all you hear calling in there agreeing most of the time is the white males.
		And white males are the reason why things happen like it is down.
		All your shooting, mass shooting, white males.
		A lot of your rapes and stuff, white males.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Charles.
		Let's go to Dan, Santa Barbara, California, Independent Line.
		What do you think, Dan, about Venezuela?
		Do you support or oppose U.S. actions there?
unidentified		I lean more on the liberal side, but I am actually okay with Maduro being ousted.
		I think a lot of Americans, unfortunately, come from a place of privileged and a lot of ignorance about the situation here.
		They need to realize that Chavez and Maduro literally destroyed a once great nation.
		They also fomented a refugee crisis where a third of the Venezuelan population, roughly, I think around 9 to 10 million, had to flee that country.
		And also, this is an illegal presidency.
		Maduro lost the election fair and square.
		He got his butt whooped in the election.
		So that guy needs to go.
		So I do find it ironic that as Venezuelans around the diaspora right now are celebrating that Maduro's gone, I go onto social media and see the most cringe, unhinged takes from the leftists and just making all these false equivalencies and just these horrible takes.
		I was like, dude, you guys are like simping for a dictator.
		It's like so crazy.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So Dan, I want to ask you to respond to this.
		We got this from Christian on Facebook.
		He said this.
		It's possible to be against what we did and still agree that Maduro wasn't a good guy.
unidentified		What do you think of that?
		Yeah, again, I don't understand why people are so against this because people are saying, oh, this is a war.
		And this is the same as Iraq and Afghanistan or even the false equivalency with the Iran thing back in the day in the 50s.
		None of that's true.
		This was a very brief operation where Delta Force went onto a military base where Maduro and his wife lived and extracted them.
		And we had no fatalities from U.S. troops, which is great.
		The fatalities in Venezuela were all like Cuban soldiers.
		Most of them were Cuban militants who were protecting Maduro.
		So it was a pretty clean operation.
		So I don't know why everyone's so up in arms about this.
		Hopefully, we get Maria Machado back in there as the president, ideally.
		So again, I think a lot of people are confused in America, and they come from a place of privilege, and they should really sit down and have a conversation with a Venezuelan who's been severely affected by this and had to flee and now lives in the diaspora.
		And they can maybe learn a thing or two.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And if they're around, we definitely want to hear from you.
		We are taking your calls this first segment on your thoughts on the U.S. actions in Venezuela.
		You can give us a call on our phone lines.
		They are Democrats 202-748-8000, Republicans 202-748-8001.
		And Independents 202-748-8002.
		You can text us.
		That line is 202-748-8002.
		Meanwhile, let's hear from Representative, House Minority Leader, Representative Hakeem Jeffries.
		He was on NBC's Meet the Press yesterday, and he refuted President Trump's reasons, justification for capturing Maduro.
kristen welker ▲ ● ▼		Well, you just heard my conversation with Secretary Rubio.
		I asked him about the administration's decision not to inform Congress ahead of this operation until President Maduro had been captured.
		Secretary Rubio is saying this was not the kind of mission where they could have afforded to notify Congress.
		There were concerns about leaks.
		He made that point.
		President Trump made that point.
		Was the administration justified in this case in not briefing Congress?
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's been no evidence that the administration has presented to justify the actions that were taken in terms of there being an imminent threat to the health, the safety, the well-being, the national security of the American people.
		This was not simply a counter-narcotics operation.
		It was an act of war.
		It involved, of course, the Delta Force, and we're thankful for the precision by which they executed the operation and thankful for the fact that no American lives were lost.
		But this was a military action involving Delta Force, involving the Army, apparently involving thousands of troops, involving at least 150 military aircraft, perhaps involving dozens of ships off the coast of Venezuela and South America.
		So, of course, this was the military action.
		And pursuant to the Constitution, only Congress has the power to declare war, to authorize acts that take place in this regard.
		And we've got to make sure when we return to Washington, D.C., that legislative action is taken to ensure that no further military steps occur absent explicit congressional approval.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		That was House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.
		And what you're seeing now on your screen is the arrival of Venezuela's leader, deposed leader Maduro.
		He is there in the middle, handcuffed.
		He is being taken and transported for his first court appearance that's scheduled for noon today in Manhattan.
		You can see here he's going to be getting into that helicopter and transported to the courthouse in Manhattan.
		Meanwhile, we will continue taking your calls.
		Here's Al in Connecticut on the line for Democrats.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		He cannot do something.
		This is going to go to the United Nations in the Congress.
		Who does he think he is?
		The president should be removed from the White House immediately for all of the corruption he's done so far.
		He has never done anything in his entire life that was not for him.
		He does not help anybody, including the United States.
		He is always there for him and his cronies for the money.
		And he's already put billions and taken stolen billions of dollars from the American people.
		And he's still doing this.
		Who does he think he is?
		All right, Al.
		Who does he think he is?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Al mentioned the United Nations.
		The UN Security Council will be meeting today.
		It's right after this program at 10 a.m. Eastern.
		We will take you there immediately after this program.
		So definitely stay with us for that.
		It was Colombia backed by Russia and China requesting that meeting of the 15-member council.
		We have live coverage of that again at 10 a.m. Eastern.
		Lawrence in Minnesota, Independent Lion, you're next.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Speaking to what Representative Jeffries spoke to and the previous caller, just clarification on the War Powers Act or War Powers Resolution, I think is the formal name.
		So this is a military action, and the war powers resolution requires, I'm sorry, does not require congressional approval for the president to act.
		But the president is required to respond within 48 hours.
		So yes, to declare war does require congressional approval.
		However, use of military as commander-in-chief, according to the War Powers Act, does not require congressional approval.
		And I think it's disingenuous that many people are getting on their bully pulpits and demanding that President Trump should have first gone to Congress.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Lawrence, and Lawrence, you are in support then, I take it, of the administration's actions.
unidentified		A guy a couple of callers ago talked about looking at it from the citizens of Venezuela and how their company has been ripped apart, principally due to their last two leaders.
		And the removal of the president, which I believe the indictment was under the previous administration, probably eventually needed to happen one way or the other.
		So thanks for the time.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Lawrence.
		And this is from Bloomberg, and it says this, Trump's Venezuela oil revival plan is a $100 billion gamble.
		It says that realizing President Trump's plan for a U.S.-led revival of Venezuela's beleaguered oil industry could be a years-long and challenging process, costing upwards of $100 billion.
		Years of corruption, underinvestment, fires, and thefts have left the nation's crude infrastructure in tatters.
		Rebuilding it enough to lift Venezuela's output back to its peak levels of the 1970s would require companies that could include Chevron, ExxonMobil, and ConocoPhillips to invest about $10 billion per year over the next decade.
		That's according to an energy policy expert at Rice University.
		Quote, a faster recovery would require even more investment.
		That's at Bloomberg if you'd like to read that.
		And this is Ron in Lawrenceville, Georgia, Republican line.
		Good morning, Ron.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm for the action.
		I think this was not a we're not at war with Venezuela.
		This is simply a law enforcement action.
		And Trump was following his duties under the Constitution of making sure the laws are enforced.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Ron, tell me about what you think is going to happen after this.
		So, Maduro goes to court, but what happens in Venezuela?
		What do you think?
unidentified		I think they're going to put pressure on them to stop sending drugs to the United States.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And do you think that the, I mean, Venezuela will then become a democracy?
		Do you think that they're going to have their oil industry come back online?
		I mean, what do you think?
unidentified		I suspect that Donald Trump's not going to go in there and remove the entire government.
		I think that this is probably going to be the end of it right here.
		And he's going to try to get them to cooperate with the United States, and I think they will.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So the Wall Street Journal has an editorial, and it says this, because the vice president now of, which is a Maduro ally, is currently in power.
		It says, don't settle for Maduro 2.0.
		As Sunday dawned in Caracas and Washington, a new reality was also apparent a day after the U.S. snatched dictator Maduro.
		The dictator's cronies are still running Venezuela, and they don't seem ready to give it up.
		Is President Trump willing to settle for Maduro 2.0?
		It says Delcie Rodriguez, former vice president, is now acting president.
		Like Maduro, she's been sanctioned by the U.S. and European Union.
		After Maduro's capture Saturday, she issued defiant public remarks.
		She's a hardline socialist, well known for her close ties to Cuban intelligence.
		That's at the Wall Street Journal.
		What do you think of that, Ron?
		Are you still on the line with me?
unidentified		Yeah, I am.
		And I suspect that they're going to change their tune.
		What matters is not the rhetoric.
		What matters is what they actually do.
		And I think that how much time and effort and money did we spend going after Saddam Hussein?
		This operation took our military.
		I think the Delta Force was on the ground for maybe 32 minutes.
		They can go in again if they have to.
		And I don't think they want that to happen.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's see what Vivian thinks.
		In Virginia, line for Democrats.
		Go ahead, Vivian.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Well, here we go again.
		Okay.
		I mean, you know, reading is fundamental.
		Remember Donald Russell shocked and all at mission occupies?
		This is going to be the same thing.
		People don't want to be their country being taken over.
		What do these people think if China and Russia and North Korea decide that they don't like Trump and they decide to bomb us?
		You know, this is Project 2025 next goal, bringing back the draft.
		See, people don't read.
		You know, a mine is a terrible thing to waste.
		Yeah, because they already talk about going into Cuba and Greenland.
		You know, and Trump's going to take those oil companies and put his name on it because he wants to be a cotrillionaire, the first one, if he lives long enough.
		But the devil is a liar, and he has a lot of minions.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Vivian.
		And what you're seeing there, that helicopter is carrying Nicholas Maduro en route to Manhattan Courthouse.
		His appearance is scheduled for 12 noon today.
		Godwell in Artesia, California, Republican, you're on the air.
unidentified		Thank you for taking my call.
unidentified		I work with a Venezuelan, and for years now, he's been literally crying about the suffering in Venezuela and all the way back to what's the former leader's name, before Maduro.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Chavez.
unidentified		Chavez, Hugo Chavez.
		Yes, from Hugo Chavez to Maduro.
		And he told me every day we worked together how people were going from living normal lives, you know, to just barely getting by, trying to get food from trash dumps and just untold suffering that Venezuelans have been going through.
		And the guy that called a few calls ago about false equivalencies is so true.
		You know, people, how are Venezuelans celebrating in the streets?
		These are the real people that have been affected by the evil that these regimes have been perpetrating on their lives.
		How are they celebrating?
		And we're out of the comforts of our environments here, you know, condemning a president that finally did something.
		If you have anyone who's been lost, you know, to drug use and just over supply of drugs and availability of drugs on our streets, you know, you would appreciate that somebody is not just talking about, we've had this war on drugs for decades now with very little to show for it, with the death toll of American youth, you know, rising.
		Okay, so finally, that number is beginning to drop.
		Why?
		Because somebody in the White House in authority is finally doing something about solving the problems.
		So let's look beyond our noses for a minute and consider the plight of people whose lives have been devastated by narco trafficking by the people in Venezuela living just pathetic lives.
		A country that used to be very, very, very wealthy and well-to-do.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And what you're seeing on your screen there is Nicolas Maduro entering a truck.
		He has arrived on the island of Manhattan.
		Behind him, there is his wife, the former First Lady of Venezuela.
		They are both in handcuffs, and they are en route to their first court appearance in a Manhattan courtroom.
		That's scheduled for noon today.
		Regarding what Godwin was just saying, this is a commentary on the Washington Times by Jeffrey Scott Shapiro with the headline, Trump's arrest of Maduro is a victory over corruption, communism, and isolationism.
		It's time to secure the Western hemisphere and let the criminal communist dominoes fall.
		It says this, it says, in addition, securing the Western hemisphere of Mr. Maduro's drug trafficking, Mr. Trump has offered hope to millions of Venezuelans who have reached a breaking point from the abuse they have suffered under Mr. Maduro's yoke.
		The communist ruler engaged in arbitrary arrest and detention, unfair trials and torture, including beating, suffocation, electric shocks and threats, and sexual violence against women, according to a 2024 Amnesty International report.
		Mr. Maduro also weaponized starvation.
		In 2018, Venezuela's inflation rate hit 13,000 percent.
		With empty stores, leaving people sifting through garbage for scraps, the hunger rate was so devastating that it quickly became known as the, quote, Maduro diet.
		In a shameless, ruthless move, Mr. Maduro used his power over ration cards to gain votes.
		That's in the Washington Times.
		And this is Steve, who's calling us from Greenwich, New Jersey, Independent Line.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		I'd just like to applaud the previous caller.
		He laid it out very well, and I'd like to expand on that a little bit.
		And just start off with one statistic.
		In 1955, Venezuela was the fourth wealthiest country in the world.
		And once the communists took over, as the previous caller stated, everything fell apart.
		People were starving.
		In addition to that, Maduro and his regime, they killed something like 20,000 people during their reign.
		And if that weren't bad enough and the killing of Americans with drugs wasn't bad enough, the Chinese had operations in Venezuela.
		The Russians have operations in Venezuela.
		Hezbollah and Hamas have training grounds in Venezuela.
		Why we would tolerate a murderous dictator who is starving his people and giving safe harbor right outside our back door, I don't know.
		And why any Democrat in the world would protest that, noting that the Venezuelan people are in the streets celebrating, I can't even comprehend.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And this is Pierre in Washington, D.C. Democrat.
		Go ahead, Pierre.
unidentified		Hey, how you doing?
		Well, first off, Donald Trump is a criminal.
		So saying he's going to go and root out corruption in Venezuela, that doesn't make sense to me because he's endorsing it here in the United States.
		He's making money off the presidency here in the United States.
		One thing is for certain about Donald Trump.
		He likes to make money.
		And he's using our armed forces to go into Venezuela to make himself some money.
		He doesn't want to destroy the drug trade.
		He wants to control the drug trade and make some money off of it.
		He wants the oil from Venezuela for himself.
		He'll bake the Trump.
		That lady Vivian from a couple callers, she's on to something.
		He does want to control the oil of Venezuela for himself, not for the Venezuelan people, not for the United States, for himself.
		Thank you.
		Have a great day.
		Y'all have a wonderful one out there.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		John in Virginia online for Republicans.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		It's just really hard listening to these Democrats this morning with their Trump derangement syndrome.
		It's really, really hard.
		I think we just need to take a deep breath and take a step back and look at this objectively.
		Number one, we liberated a country, a country that had a dictator that massacred his own people.
		He was not the legitimate president.
		I hope that you don't call him the president and that other person that he's married to is the first lady because they're not recognized leaders.
		So I wouldn't even call them that and give them that respect.
		Second, is that this is socialism.
		This is what socialism does.
		1992, Venezuela is the third richest country in the hemisphere.
		In 2019, they're killing their own people.
		So how does that work out with the way things look on the global scene?
		And then Steve and your colour before Steve, they nailed it out of the park.
		I mean, look, they had ties with China.
		They had ties with Russia.
		They had ties with Iran.
		They were a threat to the United States, the national security to the United States.
		So when Chris Van Holland and when Chris Murphy get on and spew their propaganda, all they're doing is basically stroking the propaganda machine and all the evil that they just want to talk about with Trump.
		I mean, look, listen to the administration.
		Listen to Rubio yesterday.
		Listen to all of the folks in the cabinet.
		They are there.
		They know what's going on.
		They're getting briefs.
		Congress is on vacation right now.
		Hakeem Jeffries is on vacation right now.
		They can't even handle a medical or insurance for a country.
		And they're coming in and chiming.
		It's a power grab.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And John, just so you know, the House does come back into session tomorrow, and the Senate comes back later today.
		But regarding Iran, you mentioned Iran.
		This is Haaretz, which is an Israeli publication.
		It has this.
		It says, Israel welcomes Trump's attack on Venezuela as a blow to the Iranian access.
		The Venezuelan regime, which severed ties with Jerusalem in 2009, long served as a key Iranian ally and a suspected hub for Hezbollah.
		Israeli officials hope Trump's attack will dismantle Tehran's influence and solidify South America's rightward turn.
		That's at Haaretz, if you'd like to read that article.
		And Eric Kennewick, Washington, Independent Line, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		First of all, the camera is showing the kidnapped leader of another country is against the Geneva Convention.
		The second thing is Benjamin Netanyahu also has warrants out for his arrest.
		If I see him go in front of a trial, then I don't mind seeing Maduro going in front.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now, when you say Eric, when you say kidnapped leader of another country, so the argument is that he was never a legitimate leader of the country.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So you shouldn't even call him president of Venezuela.
unidentified		Well, the United Nations.
		There's people around the other sides of the world that do.
		Netanyahu has Maduro pills in comparison compared to Netanyahu.
		And Netanyahu's running staff, he snipes children for target practice.
		His military, he's starving the people of Gaza.
		Right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Eric, let's stay with Venezuela for the purposes of this segment.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I take it you're against the administration's actions.
unidentified		Eric?
		Put in place.
		Yeah.
		The person they want to put in place came out with a statement praising Israel and saying that they're going to be gung-ho for Israel.
		So I think that Israel is tied into all of this decision-making of kidnapping the leader of another country.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Donna in Kingsport, Tennessee, Line for Democrats.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Donna.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
unidentified		Thank you for taking my call.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		We're listening.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		Thank you.
		Well, I just feel like we shouldn't have stepped foot directly into another country and captured him and brought him back as he just actually let another huge drug trafficker go.
		And I don't know exactly what the tactics are getting out of this.
		I mean, these people say people have the Trump derangement syndrome.
		Well, the bottom line is I feel vaguely familiar that all of a sudden millions and millions of documents are coming out once again with Epstein.
		And every time the heat gets heavy as far as what he's done in Venezuela versus what he has not done for the American citizens here, the insurance coming up, the Epstein, the corruption of the Epstein, that's getting ready to blow out of the water.
		And I think it's all about a diversion tactic.
		He's not helping the Americans.
		America should come first.
		That's what he ran on.
		So now he's concerned with other presidents and the bureaucracy of them being dictators.
		That's what he's trying to do.
		And probably clear martial art law to get the Supreme Court in as they are definitely on his side.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now, Donna, the argument, respond to this argument, which is this is helping Americans by decreasing the amount of drugs coming into the country, by increasing oil revenues.
		We're going to have cheaper oil.
		We'll have a safer Western hemisphere.
unidentified		How many years is that going to take?
		Nobody's jumping right on that.
		So this is going to cost American citizens, once again, we're going to be in the deficit billions of dollars until all these oil people get on.
		And who's in charge of the country?
		Yes, I don't believe in people getting hurt in these horrible, horrific conditions that they're in.
		But our U.S. American citizens are in horrific conditions right now.
		And once again, it's a diversion tactic.
		He doesn't want Epstein to come out.
		I understand.
		This is why it's blasted all over the news.
		It's nothing but diversion.
		And I will always feel that way.
		He'll never be held accountable for it.
		He wants to be a hero and have his name everywhere.
		That's his permanent fixture.
		Maybe he'll make some money to correct the East Wing that he tore down.
		I don't agree with it.
		I think that until I can see the oil come down and my gas cheaper, that's no different than a loaf of bread.
		That's not.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to John in Tumball, Texas, Republican.
		Go ahead, John.
		John, you there?
		Texas.
		Abraham in Baltimore, Maryland, Independent Line.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		How are you?
		I've been listening actually to the show for a few years.
		My first time calling in.
		I don't have to make sure taxpayer information is being passed.
		I think you spoke to an earlier caller and spoke about acting president Venezuela.
		You know, her initial responses about the U.S. going in and Trump.
		I wanted to check if you saw her most recent ex post or what's on the New York Post with her recent statements.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		The New York Post had her statements.
		You're talking about Rodriguez.
		Correct.
		Okay.
		Can you tell me what she said?
		And we'll look it up at the same time.
		Sure.
unidentified		So the New York Post posted, it updated it on January 5th, 2026 at 6:43 a.m.
		They wrote that the current acting president wrote Venezuela: We invite the U.S. government to collaborate with us on agenda of cooperation oriented towards shared development within the framework of international law to strengthen lasting communities' coexistence, said Rodriguez, who also serves as the one listening that it continues.
		And then she also wrote, President Donald Trump and our people and our region deserve peace and dialogue, not war.
		So it seems from what they're saying that she shifted her responses have now been shifted.
		I also have seen where she wanted to invite President Trump down to Venezuela as well.
		Okay.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And I do have this, Abraham.
		Thanks for bringing that up on the New York Post.
		This was published about 14 hours ago.
		Marco Rubio says Venezuela's VP Delce Rodriguez isn't a legitimate leader as he outlines how next president will be chosen.
		But we will be looking for her posts on X.
		And again, thank you for bringing that up for us.
		Ty, Feeding Hills, Massachusetts, Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Hey, I just want to point out that the CIA has been trying to get into Venezuela since before Bush Sr., since before Chavez was in power.
		So, I mean, I will commend the Trump administration for actually getting Maduro out of power because I know people from Venezuela and they hate Maduro.
		They said he's an illegitimate president.
		He's very terrible on gay rights and everything like that.
		So get him out of power.
		But I mean, I just, I don't see anything good or bad from this.
		Honestly, like, because I mean, the CIA is just going to get the oil.
		That's what they want.
		And I don't think they're going to get the oil to help the Venezuelan people.
		It's going to benefit us, obviously, but what about them?
		That's kind of really all I wanted to say.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And let's hear from Dale in Taylorsville, North Carolina, Republican.
		You're on the air, Dale.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
		Mimi, about 10 minutes ago, there was a black guy called in and blamed the white man, the white male, for everything that's wrong.
		And you let him go on and talk.
		Nope.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I moved on, Dale.
		Go back and watch the tape.
		But what did you want to say about Venezuela?
unidentified		It don't matter what they do.
		They're going to get negative coverage.
		It beats anything I've ever seen.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So what do you think about what happened in Venezuela?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		When you say it doesn't matter, do you not have an opinion?
unidentified		Have you ever seen anybody die from a drug overdose?
unidentified		Turn blue, gasping fire.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Have you, Dale?
		Let's talk to Kendra in Richmond, Virginia, Independent Line.
		Kendra, good morning, Kendra.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		How are you, Mimi?
		Good.
		Let me hear my TV down.
		Okay, so I do support the president.
		He is trying to protect America.
		Apparently, they gave this guy Maduro other options, and he didn't want to take those options.
		So this is what happens to him.
		You know, the people that are calling here being negative, anything that Trump does, they have a negative opinion about it.
		They wait 30 days to call up and say something bad about the president.
		They need to get a life.
		Stop worrying about Trump every day.
		I suggest that every morning when they get up, they repeat the name Trump 10 times to get it out their system and move on.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Kendra, going back to Venezuela, your thoughts on that?
unidentified		I support the president.
		I think what he did was good.
		He's trying to protect Americans.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Protect Americans in what way?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Give us a little bit more information.
unidentified		Well, apparently he said drug trafficking, right?
		So that is what he is trying to do.
		He is trying to protect Americans and he's trying to get rid of corruption, okay?
		Okay.
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here is Secretary of State, Marco Rubio.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		He was on NBC's Meet the Press yesterday explaining how multiple U.S. agencies will be involved in running Venezuela for the time being.
kristen welker ▲ ● ▼		But, Mr. Secretary, I think there's a lot of questions about who the point people are during this transition.
		President Trump said we're going to run the country.
		So is it you?
		Is it Secretary Hegseth?
		Who are those people who will be running the country specifically?
marco rubio ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not running the policy, the policy with regards to this.
		We want Venezuela to move in a certain direction because not only do we think it's good for the people of Venezuela, it's in our national interest.
		It either touches on something that's a threat to our national security or touches on something that's either beneficial or harmful.
kristen welker ▲ ● ▼		And are you involved in that transition?
marco rubio ▲ ● ▼		So obviously I'm very involved in this.
		Well, of course, I mean, I think everyone knows I'm pretty involved on politics in this hemisphere.
		Obviously, a Secretary of State, a national security advisor, very involved in all these elements.
		The Department of War plays a very important role here, along with the Department of Justice, for example, because they're the ones that have to go to court.
		So this is a team effort by the entire national security apparatus of our country, but it is running this policy.
		And the goal of the policy is to see changes in Venezuela that are beneficial to the United States, first and foremost, because that's who we work for, but also, we believe, beneficial for the people of Venezuela, who have suffered tremendously.
		We want a better future for Venezuela, and we think a better future for the people of Venezuela also is stabilizing for the region and makes the neighborhood we live in a much better and safer place.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And back to the calls now to Michael in Wilmington, North Carolina, Democrat.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Michael.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		Okay, so this is, I think, one of the challenges of being a human being.
		We are very comfortable in a black and white world.
		Left is right, right is wrong.
		The challenge is the gray.
		And I think this is an issue that, as I've started to look at it, because that's what I always try to do.
		I try to not react viscerally.
		I try to check information.
		So the United States produces about 13 billion gallons of oil a day.
		Venezuela produces less than a billion gallons of oil a day.
		In their prime, they produce maybe 2.5 billion gallons a day.
		So that's like 1% of all the oil produced.
		So I don't understand in my sense why we would go after such a small amount of oil with such a huge action, which, by the way, I think the military was just flawless in how they performed.
		But is the rationale really to go after this minimum amount of oil or is it something else?
		And I'm struggling to figure out what the something else is.
		And I do urge people to kind of do a little bit of research.
		We did the oil wasn't stolen from the United States.
		It was negotiated as Venezuela nationalized it, and companies got paid money.
		They didn't get paid probably as much as they wanted, but they got paid money.
		So it wasn't as portrayed.
		It was stolen.
		It was negotiated over a number of years back in the 70s.
		And I think that's really, you know, the message I want is dig into things, check things out.
		Don't, again, just react at it.
		This is right.
		This is wrong.
		It's always the most difficult place to be is in the gray.
		And I urge people to kind of embrace the gray, explore things in greater detail before we just react.
		And thank you and have a wonderful day, America.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, have a good day too, Michael.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		This is Tom in North Carolina Independent Line.
unidentified		Well, hey, good morning.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Morning.
unidentified		You're looking as pretty as always.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead about Venezuela.
unidentified		Well, I have a theory about Venezuela.
		I think the drugs and all that stuff is bad enough, but you've got to remember that Venezuela was the first country that they tried those voting machines way back when it was Chavez.
		Then they came up here and spread all over the world.
		And Trump himself said a couple of months ago, or he said a couple of weeks ago, that in a couple of months they were going to get to the bottom of 2020.
		And that has a lot to do with those voting machines.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And here is Eddie, New Jersey, Republican line.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, I always find it very fascinating when the Democrats on one side, they're in agreement with getting the dictator out.
		But when Trump does something, if he does it, it's always wrong.
		The Venezuelan people feel liberated that Maduro is not there no more.
		How do the people in the U.S. that never visited Venezuela going to comment on what being oppressed by a dictator feels like?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Eddie.
		And later on this morning on the Washington Journal, we'll take a look back at the major immigration and deportation actions by the Trump administration in 2025 and what to watch ahead.
		We'll also talk about Venezuelan immigrants here in the United States.
		That conversation with David Beer, Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute.
		But first, after the break, we've got Niall Stanage, White House columnist for The Hill, who discusses the Trump administration's actions in Venezuela and what faces the White House going forward.
		We'll be right back.
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mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		Joining us to continue our conversation on Venezuela and what's facing the White House is Niall Stanage.
		He's White House columnist for The Hill.
		Welcome back to the program.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Good to be with you, Mamie.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So what is facing the Trump administration now as a result of those operations over the weekend?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		I think an enormous number of questions, primarily.
		I mean, there are obviously questions about the motivations in doing this in the first place.
		But then there's this very clear uncertainty about what exactly the U.S. role is going to be.
		President Trump, of course, said over the weekend they were going to run Venezuela.
		Then Secretary of State Rubio said, well, it's not really running, it's running policy.
		Then President Trump asked last night on Air Force One, who's in charge of Venezuela.
		And he says, we're in charge.
		What does that actually mean in practical terms?
		How does that operate?
		How does that manifest itself?
		And what is the sort of short to medium term future in Venezuela?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now, there were a lot of similarities that people were bringing up with Iraq and how the United States took over running Iraq, essentially running the government, all the services there.
		Secretary Rubio kept saying, not everything is Iraq.
		Let's stop talking about Iraq.
		This is completely different.
		What is the administration saying about that?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I think it is fair to say that not every single foreign intervention is Iraq, right?
		I mean, that has its particular specifics, just as Venezuela has its particular specifics.
		The administration's view, and I stress that I'm just stating their view, I'm not defending it or attacking it, their view is that the United States needs to dominate the Western hemisphere.
		This is the quote-unquote Don Rue doctrine, President Trump's take on the Monroe on the Monroe document.
		And it is a very muscular assertion that the United States must control the Western hemisphere and eliminate things that it considers threatening or adversarial or negative in some fashion in that way.
		They are planting this intervention in Venezuela within that framework.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now, President Trump obviously was in power before.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		How has his thinking on foreign policy and foreign intervention changed from his first term to now this first year in office of his second term?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		It's a great question.
		Maybe we should get Congresswoman Taylor Greene on to discuss her take on that.
		I mean, Trump in the first term, and indeed through most of his political career thus far, has been ostensibly skeptical of intervention.
		And that, I think, broadly speaking, held true in the first term.
		It is much less true in the second term, not only in relation to Venezuela, but in, for example, the military strikes on Iran that we saw last year, and also in the president's willingness to sort of bang the war drums to some extent in relation to other nations, including Colombia and Cuba.
		I'm not suggesting that he's planning to invade Cuba.
		That's something that has a rather checkered history when American presidents have tried it, and he hasn't said that's what he's trying.
		But this goes back to the element that we were just talking about, the wish to dominate the Western Hemisphere.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Nil Sandage of the Hill is our guest.
		If you have a question for him, he will take your calls.
		The lines are Democrats 202-748-8000, Republicans, 202-748-8001, and Independents 202-748-8002.
		The lines are open.
		You can start calling in now.
		I don't even know what to call Maduro anymore.
		President, former president, illegitimate leader.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Nicolas Maduro.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		We'll just stick with Maduro.
		He does appear in a Manhattan court today at about noon.
		What is facing the Trump administration's Justice Department in prosecuting that case?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have obviously released or unsealed the indictment that names Nicolas Maduro and his wife and his son and a number of other senior people in the Venezuelan administration.
		I think, Mimi, one thing we should be candid about is that there are still elements of this whole circumstance that we don't really know the answer to.
		One fascinating question to me is, what happens if Nicolas Maduro is acquitted?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Is that possible?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		I mean, he has the right to defend himself.
		He has the right to defend himself, certainly.
		He has the right to argue, for example, that he is the leader of Venezuela and therefore enjoys sovereign immunity.
		That would not be an acquittal, but it would result in the dismissal of the case if he were able to persuade the court of that point.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		He was a sitting head of state, that he could not be prosecuted.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Yes.
		That's what sovereign immunity is.
		It's the widely accepted view that you cannot criminally prosecute the head of state of another nation.
		Now, this, I mean, without getting into the legal intricacies of this, the counter-argument is that the United States administration does not recognize Maduro and did not recognize Maduro as the legitimate leader of Venezuela even before the events of the past 72 hours approximately.
		Therefore, he wouldn't be entitled to that.
		But these are some of the whole tightly knotted ball of questions that are around in all of this.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now, what significance do you think it was that the indictment does not mention fentanyl?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's very politically significant.
		I think that, to be candid, President Trump has often sort of fudged the issue of what kind of drugs he's talking about when he talks about the dangers to the United States from drug trafficking from Venezuela.
		Venezuela, according to virtually every expert, is not a significant source of fentanyl whatsoever.
		The vast majority of fentanyl that enters the United States comes from Mexico and comes across the border in that way.
		Venezuela is not even a very major importer or transit point for cocaine into the United States.
		Some cocaine does go through there, most of it destined for Europe.
		But the president has, I think, made the argument for this seizing of Maduro, partly on the basis that he's protecting Americans from being killed by drug overdoses.
		He often implies that that means fentanyl.
		That's just not borne out by the facts in Venezuela's case.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I want to talk about the current leader of Venezuela, which is Delsi Rodriguez.
		She was Maduro's vice president.
		She did put a post out 11 hours ago on Instagram.
		It's a message from Venezuela to the world and the United States.
		I'm going to read some of it and then have you comment.
		It says, Venezuela reaffirms its commitment to peace and peaceful coexistence.
		Our country aspires to live without external threats in an environment of respect, international cooperation.
		We believe that global peace is built by first guaranteeing peace within each nation.
		It says this later in her letter.
		We invite the U.S. government to collaborate with us on an agenda of cooperation oriented towards shared development within the framework of international law to strengthen lasting community coexistence.
		President Donald Trump, our peoples, and our region deserve peace and dialogue, not war.
		This has always been President Maduro's message, and it is the message of all of Venezuela right now.
		And what do you make of that?
		Do you see that as a conciliatory message?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's an extremely conciliatory message directed at a nation that has just seized the man who she purports to believe is still the president of Venezuela.
		Extremely conciliatory by those lights.
		One thing I would say about this whole picture, Mimi, is I will preface this by saying I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
		I'm not given to conspiracies, generally speaking, but I think there are a lot of suspicious elements to the way this situation has developed.
		You have the United States seizing the president of Venezuela with fairly conspicuous ease in Caracas.
		You have President Trump then hanging out to dry the main leader of the opposition, Maria Machado, saying that she doesn't really have the respect to lead the country.
		And you have Delsi Rodriguez, purportedly a socialist, socialist nationalist, formerly Marxist, being conciliatory to the United States in this way.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		After first being not conciliatory.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And demanding the release of Maduro.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		And calling this a barbarism or something to that effect.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		There just seems to be, frankly, a lot of shadiness around this that I think we do need intrepid investigative reporters to dig into a bit more.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Shadiness as far as you think there might be back deals going on?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I think that there is at least a suspicion that there was some tacit agreement between Rodriguez or people close to Rodriguez and the U.S. Let's talk to callers.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Mario is in Fort Washington, Maryland, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air, Mario.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		Go ahead.
		Yes, I would like to add, well, I would like to add my point of view as being Colombian and living in the United States for over 26 years.
		I believe the United States is my home and I do approve the capture of Maduro, but the way it was done, it's just not the proper way.
		I mean, we need to have at least the approval from the Congress.
		And I would love for the American people to understand that because of defending the American way doesn't give you guys the right to invade another country.
		Colombia is next.
		And I'm Colombian.
		I'm afraid of what's going to happen.
		I have family.
		I got loved ones back there.
		And we don't want any more bad stuff that happened.
		I will appreciate if you guys please understand that there is no right to invade another country.
		It's because nobody has the right to invade another country.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mario.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And to add to his comment, this is Anthony on X. Absent of any occurring or imminent attack on American soil and without authorization from Congress, there is no military combat rule for the president to employ that is legal under the Constitution.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		I think that both your caller and Anthony on X and Mario on the phone raise important points here.
		Look, I don't want to get C-SPAN on hot water.
		I know we're talking about facts, not opinions here.
		But I do think that it's important for those of us in the media to state facts where they plainly exist, even if some people from political positions don't want those facts to be acknowledged.
		What the United States is involved here in Venezuela is clearly an imperialist or colonialist effort.
		President Trump was asked on Air Force One last night, who's in charge of Venezuela.
		He said, we're in charge.
		That means that the United States has used its military might to take control of a foreign country.
		President Trump has been abundantly clear that extracting oil from Venezuela is a driving force in that effort.
		You couldn't ask for a more textbook example of what colonialism or imperialism are.
		The use by a larger country of force against a smaller country to take control of it, directly or indirectly, and to exploit its resources.
		That's what's happening.
		And, you know, we might end up having a debate in future days about whether imperialism is a good or a bad thing.
		But we shouldn't flim flam as journalists about saying what it is.
		That's what it is.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		The UN is meeting today.
		The UN Security Council, I should say, is meeting today, 10 o'clock.
		We will have live coverage of that here on C-SPAN right after this program.
		But that was called by Colombia through Russia and China.
		Of course, that meeting was called.
		What message do you think that sends to other large powerful countries like Russia and China?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, this is the whole issue here.
		Other powerful countries like Russia and China have no problem, of course, expanding their own dominion.
		Russia, obviously, by the invasion of Ukraine and China in various other, typically less militaristic, for the moment, ways.
		Of course, the fate of Taiwan is its whole other issue.
		I mean, the question you ask is a very big question, Mimi, but basically the point of an international rules-based order is to restrain major powers from simply going around the world seizing territory that they wish to seize.
		And so I think this pushback that you're seeing here is part of an attempt to try to bind that rules-based order together in some fashion.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		A caller earlier this morning said that this is the rule of the jungle.
		The powerful take over the weak, and there's nothing wrong with that.
		That's who we are.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, this is sort of mind-blowing to me that we're having that as a debate, like, oh, maybe the strong just should seize the weak.
		I would say that in general, I think this is part of a bigger picture with the current administration, where things that appeared to be settled or around which there appeared to be consensus are now increasingly called into question.
		And, you know, we see that domestically on issues like diversity or the teaching of black history, and we see it internationally in terms of this willingness to very openly say, We're going into this country and we're going to take its oil.
		I mean, that's not something that would have been stated openly, I don't think, by any president of either party in the past.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Kathy in Ohio, line for Democrats.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Kathy.
unidentified		Good morning.
		You know, briefly, I thought that it would be slow down the drug trafficking coming into the United States.
		But then I got to researching, and since 2026, Trump has forgiven at least five great big drug cartel drug lords.
		And I actually think this is a war for control of all the drugs.
		And I think all of our leaders and very wealthy people are drug lords, and we have no hope whatsoever.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, Kathy, I mean, I take your point, in particular in relation to the former president of Honduras, Mr. Hernandez, who was, of course, as you allude to, pardoned by President Trump, having been convicted of drug conspiracy relating to cocaine.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		So I think that is part of the picture that calls into question, to put it politely, the president's assertion that this is all about the drug trade or stopping the drug trade or protecting the United States from the importation of drugs.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And when the president was asked about that pardon, what is his response?
		What does he say was the reason that he pardoned that former Honduran leader?
		He doesn't really say that he was not a drug dealer.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		No, that's right.
		I mean, he basically says that he was unjustly prosecuted by the Biden administration.
		That is my understanding of what Trump's position is on that topic.
		Now, I don't frankly think he has provided a particularly precise rationalization, and you may have seen other explanations he's given for that, but that's the explanation that I recall him giving in that case.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Mike in Hudson, Florida, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air, Mike.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you today?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		I have a question for your guest.
		I'm a Vietnam veteran, 101st Airborne Ranger.
		I spent 27 months in the country in Vietnam, South Vietnam, obviously.
		And my question is, there was a lot of parody talk about North Korea versus South Korea, North Vietnam versus South Vietnam.
		I wonder if you see any similarities or parody to this Venezuela thing and how many countries from South America will join forces with the Venezuelan coalition, if you will.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question, Mike, and I wish we'd longer to discuss your own service in Vietnam.
		I guess I don't see really a realistic possibility of other nations in Latin America joining Venezuela in some sort of military pushback against the United States, like a sort of regional war of that nature.
		But I do think that, and you would know a lot more firsthand about Vietnam than I would, but I do think that there was an element of perhaps hubris in the American approach to Vietnam, which resulted in a lot of suffering for many people, including many US personnel there, in the sense that, well, we're just going to go in and we're going to beat back this threat.
		It is, I think, curious in terms of the Venezuelan thing and in terms of Latin America that President Trump seems to be very much focused on leaders of a leftist disposition.
		The leader of Ecuador, to use an exception to that, is off the center right.
		Ecuador is perceived to be, frankly, a bigger transit point for drugs into the United States.
		There's no suggestion of going in and toppling him.
		So I think that's part of this picture.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Tillman says this on X about Maduro.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		They should have sent him to Gitmo.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's certainly a view.
		I mean, Maduro is not a good guy.
		I mean, Maduro stole an election in 2024 in Venezuela.
		He has been very abusive and repressive of various liberties, including the freedom of the press.
		Now, whether the United States should go around the world seizing foreign leaders and detaining them in Gitmo, I think Tillman and I might have different views on that point.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Lena in Ohio, Independent Line, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		My situation is I don't understand why the Chuck Schumer yelling screaming because he said Trump did something wrong.
		I'm not talking for politica.
		But this guy, he was an evil guy who got to watch.
		And they should be proud what Trump did.
		And they don't send a thing at the democratic because they don't get along.
		They don't need somebody to speak before they do the work.
		So, I mean, this is a really, really criminal thing to talk against Trump.
		I don't think he did.
		Do you think he did something wrong?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that Trump did something wrong?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Personally, yes, I do.
		I think that he, I don't think that we should be in the business of empowering any president to simply go into foreign countries on a whim, seize the leader of that country and announce that they are now in control of that foreign country.
		I mean, that goes back to the point I was raising earlier about imperialism and colonialism.
		I mean, it's also worth linking, I think, Lena's point to something we were talking about earlier, which is the idea of international rules and so forth.
		So Lena's view is clearly, right, Maduro's a bad guy, we've the power to get him, let's go get him.
		Okay, so when China says, oh, we don't like Taiwan, we believe Taiwan's part of our national territory, we'll then go in and seize it.
		What is our moral objection?
		If in some more unlikely hypothetical, some Arab or Persian nation said, we believe Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal, we're going to go into Israel and seize him, would Lena be fine with that?
		Would President Trump be fine with that?
		I would imagine the answer is no.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk about Congress.
		They come back this week.
		The Senate today, the House tomorrow.
		What is facing the White House in discussing this and explaining the rationale and the future of Venezuela?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, in relation to Congress, I mean, this does go to Lena's point.
		She was arguing that essentially there was no need to inform Congress in advance.
		There is an argument you can have there about whether the information would have leaked, whether that would have posed a risk to the operation and so forth.
		But there is a debate going on, as you know, Mimi, about whether congressional authorization was required for this in the first place.
		The argument from Democrats and from some Republicans, including Congressman Massey, is this is obviously military action, therefore it requires authorization from Congress, basically.
		Marco Rubio's argument is it's not a military action.
		It's a law enforcement action.
		Therefore, it does not or did not require authorization from Congress.
		That debate has to play out.
		I do think it will be interesting to see whether any significant body of Republican opinion in Congress comes to the kind of Thomas Massey Rand Paul kind of view.
		Those figures, Paul and Massey, tend to be small minorities within the Republican Party.
		They are avowedly libertarians.
		They are extremely skeptical of what they consider overreach on the part of the executive, on the part of the president.
		Will other Republicans sound any similar theme?
		Right now, that seems unlikely to me, but I've been surprised before.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to James in Owensboro, Kentucky.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Democrat, you're on the air, James.
unidentified		Yes.
		I was wanting to know about this was a holiday weekend and New Year's and this attack on Venezuela.
		I don't believe it's over narcotics, but I think it's got to be over the oil.
		But I just wanted to know why I want Trump to go on TV and explain to people what's going on because we really don't know what it's about.
		And I'm hearing all these different theories and things flying around and I have and I don't know what this is about.
		I'd just like to know.
		Thank you.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I think James's point that the explanation or rationale for this is unclear.
		I mean, you can certainly argue that.
		I would say that Trump has been surprisingly open in some ways about talking about the fact that it's primarily about oil.
		He was asked last night on Air Force One something to the effect of what he needs from Del C. Rodriguez, the now acting president of Venezuela, and he talked about access to the oil.
		Now, it is true that he makes other arguments about narcotics and about the general sort of need to assert American influence.
		But I think that if he wishes to, if Trump wishes to explain it further, then obviously that's something that has to be watched with interest.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Mike in Tampa, Florida, Republican, you're on the air.
unidentified		All right.
		How are you doing?
		I want to talk about the geopolitical aspects of this snatch in the middle of the night.
		Hours before the Chinese sent their top envoy to go talk to Maduro to reassert their support behind him, Maduro also had all the best Chinese and Russian AAA equipment, missiles, sensors, and we defeated all that within three hours, snatch and grab, lost nobody.
		This was a show to Russia, China, and anybody else that we are the top dog.
		We can do anything we want when we want.
		And frankly, this is 100% what I voted for.
		I'm tired of Democrats, the legacy media, always trying to stand by these people that are killing our people.
		I mean, follow the C-SPAN review.
		Bye.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Nile.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I think Mike got off the line there.
		It's, look, you can make the argument, if you wish, as Mike has just done, that the United States has the power to do these things, therefore it should do it.
		The counter-argument is you then set a precedent, as you and I were talking about earlier, Mimi.
		You mentioned an earlier caller talking about the law of the jungle, the idea that the strong simply capture the weak.
		That seems to me to have all kinds of dangers if you set that as a precedent.
		You can make the argument that you should.
		There is, of course, a separate argument about spheres of influence, and Mike seemed to be making an almost sort of a Cold War era argument about Russian influence and Chinese influence on Venezuela.
		I think the question is, are we saying as a nation that the antidote to Chinese or Russian influence in any particular foreign nation should be taken as justification for the United States to go in militarily and depose the leader of that nation?
		Is that an argument that we're comfortable making?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What do you make of that Chinese envoy meeting with Maduro just a day or two before the strikes?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I think it's certainly interesting.
		I mean, we were talking earlier about the fact that there are so many questions around many aspects of this.
		I do think it's interesting that that occurred.
		I don't necessarily, I mean, I think people sometimes mention it as suggesting that that was the catalyst for American action.
		I'm not really persuaded that that's the case because I think, you know, the American action takes significant planning.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		There was also a $50 million reward for information leading to the arrest or capture of Maduro.
		There's been reporting that there was a CIA asset that led American forces to Maduro and his whereabouts.
		Are we going to be paying out a $50 million reward?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I mean, I imagine if that person had eyes on Maduro for that reason, they're going to want the $50 million.
		But I mean, it'll be fascinating to watch that.
		Are we actually going to pay out the reward?
		Maybe we will.
		I mean, I'm not saying that we won't, but someone would have to come forward and say, I'm John Doe, I'm the guy who...
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Will that be public?
		In other words, would we know about that?
		That is $50 million coming out of the Treasury.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		It is, yeah.
		That's a great question to which, I'm going to be honest, I don't know the answer.
		When those rewards are paid out, are they accounted for in some public fashion?
		I don't know the answer.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Ali is in Lorton, Virginia, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, friend.
		Just a couple of comments.
		I voted for Biden and I regret it.
		And I voted for President Trump and I regret it.
		And I believe I'm done with voting.
		It's like everyone take the office, go back to do the same thing.
		I'm an immigrant from Iraq.
		I worked with the U.S. Army in Iraq and earned my special immigrant visa to the U.S. 15 years ago.
		I have experienced Iraq and what happened there.
		I hope it's not the same case again, although there is different Differences between the two countries, but what's happened again is destabilizing another country without a plan.
		And for Trump voters who don't like immigrants coming here, who don't like what's happened in Europe and how Europe is deteriorating because the immigrants are from the Middle East, I hope you don't be bothered by millions of Venezuelans touring to the United States or to neighboring countries and destabilizing the region when that happened.
		It's amazing how history repeats itself.
		And I don't even believe it's history.
		It's literally several years ago where we all saw and lived the suffering and the disasters that happened after Iraq, which President Trump agrees that Iraq was mistaken.
		The United States went there, based on a lie, destroyed the country, destabilized the region, created ISIS, and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, killed and tens of millions displaced.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Ali, I just want to ask you a real quick question.
		Since you're Iraqi, a lot has been said about how Venezuelans are celebrating the downfall of Maduro.
		And I remember a lot of celebrities in the downfall of Saddam Hussein.
		Were you one of those Iraqis that was happy that the United States toppled Saddam Hussein?
unidentified		I was 20 years old, something.
		I don't believe I was one of those dancing, but if you can imagine, as a kid, I grew up in something similar, not as bad as North Korea right now, but it's similar.
		So we didn't have a future under Saddam, and we were hoping, thinking that things will be handled by the United States in a different way.
		But honestly, looking at the United States and what they did in Iraq afterward, how the country was handed over to Iran, and how U.S. companies couldn't do anything there, not building the country or bringing true experts to help that country and secure the oil there.
		Nothing of that happened.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear from Niles.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		I think Ali's account is really interesting there.
		And I do think that the point that I think you were alluding to, Mimi, where we see now some celebrations at least about Maduro's downfall, but then we saw celebrations about Saddam's downfall.
		And in Iraq, you know, mission accomplished turned out to be mission not at all accomplished and there was enormous chaos and bloodshed.
		As we were talking about earlier, there are clear differences between Iraq and Venezuela, but I think the idea of hubris is important.
		I just wanted to raise one other point, Mimi, that Ali sort of alluded to there about migration.
		A large number of Venezuelan migrants at one point comparatively recently had enjoyed legal status in this country under a temporary protected status.
		The Trump administration then has decided that they are going to remove that temporary protected status.
		And just over the weekend, I think it was Christine Noam, although if I'm incorrect on that, your viewers can correct me, said that those people could apply for refugee status.
		In fact, although that is technically true, the Trump administration has slashed to an enormous degree the number of people who are the cap on refugees in the U.S.
		So this question of what happens to Venezuelan migrants in the United States is a very salient one at a time when all of this turmoil is taking place in their homeland.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And we do have an immigration expert coming on next, and we will definitely talk about that for Venezuelan refugees and immigrants in the United States.
		Here's Jose Grant Florida Independent Line.
		Jose, I understand you are a Venezuelan-American immigrant.
unidentified		Yes, I am.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Would you mind telling us your immigration status?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Are you an American citizen now?
unidentified		I am an American citizen.
		I have been living here in the country over 40 years, but I was born and grew up in Venezuela.
		So I still have a lot of connection with Venezuela and I stay in contact and well informed what's going on in Venezuela.
		And the reason I'm calling, I mean, I have multiple points, but I'm just going to address one point only because the lack of time is that this mission just started, taking Maduro out, but they left the rest of his strong followers.
		My concern for our nation, the United States, and for Venezuela, is it reminds me a little bit about the bag of pigs when the United States tried to help get rid of Castro, but then didn't finish the job.
		After that, what happened?
		The missile crisis.
		Of course, the Cuban learned very quickly we better have nuclear missiles here in order to protect ourselves from a second invasion.
		Now, the Venezuelan government, I don't think they're going to be so stupid to not do nothing.
		I think they're going to try to get the most help they can in order to protect themselves for a second third or whatever invasion they may happen in the future.
		And that's a concern that I have right now.
		That if this, whatever you started, because this is something that in the middle of the rivers, you cannot change horses at this time.
		You have to now to finish it.
		We got involved in something that had to be completed now.
		And that's my concern.
		I'd like to hear your guest.
		His opinion is what will happen, what we think the Maduro regime will do if we don't finish the job.
		I don't think they're going to, well, I think I say all about that point only.
		And I'm going to stay to that point to give a chance.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Jose.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Appreciate that.
		Thanks, Jose.
		So in relation to this idea about will the Venezuelan government leadership now seek more muscular protection, I think that's possible.
		And it's part of this picture where a lot of the rhetoric preceding the U.S. strike was about the regime in Venezuela.
		What has in fact happened is Nicolas Maduro has been removed, but the regime has not at all.
		And in fact, President Trump has been, I would say, ambivalent at best about the idea if there being elections anytime soon in Venezuela.
		And as we were discussing earlier on, has notably failed to back the main opposition leader.
		So that obviously does raise the question of whether the current Venezuelan regime accommodates itself to Trump's wishes or otherwise.
		Very quickly, in relation to Jose's statement about finishing the job, one of the complexities here is, A, what would finishing the job look like?
		But B, I mean, there's a very long history of the United States backing opposition figures in foreign nations that then become seen perhaps understandably as patsys of the United States and thus lose legitimacy among their own people.
		So all of those dynamics are part of this Pandora's box that we've just opened.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Diana in Livingston, New Jersey.
		Democrat.
		Hi, Diana.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		I'm thinking about when they keep on saying spheres of influence and how we're leaving the international rules-based order.
		Do we agree with that?
		Like, have the American people know that Trump's agenda is to establish these zones where he's in charge, where he's transactional, where he's going to go in with the tech billionaires' support in the oil companies and go in and take over these countries that are rich in resources and establish, like, in fact, there is already with the Honduras connection.
		I'm surprised, like, the journalists don't bring this out, that the Peter Thiel and some Venezuelan investor, they have established these cities, Prospera in Honduras, where it's subject to its own laws, its own jurisdiction, and they can come and go.
		And he's been buying up the land there.
		And do they get together and decide, you know, Musk and Peter Thiel and all these weird guys with all this weird philosophy, right?
		They're the ones prompting Trump, who has become rich since he's gotten in with them with the crypto and the blockchain and the AI.
		They're just becoming immensely rich.
		And it's made them so powerful that they can go into these small little South American countries and buy them up and then do what they want and take advantage of the people.
		The people even in South America or Venezuela won't profit from it.
		It's these tech billionaires and the oil companies and investors that will profit.
		Can the guests elaborate on any of that?
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Sure, Diana.
		The part that I can't elaborate on, because you're just bringing it to my attention, is the Peter Taylor villages in Honduras.
		I know literally nothing about that, and I'll certainly look into it.
		So thanks for bringing it up.
		In relation to Honduras, I mean, I mentioned before Trump's pardoning of the former president there who'd been convicted on drug charges.
		Now, in relation to the broader point you make about corporations benefiting from this, I think that is a very valid and salient point.
		President Trump has said repeatedly that he wants U.S. companies to go in and get the oil.
		Now, will the people of Venezuela really see any benefit from that?
		I'm personally skeptical.
		It seems like this is avowedly an effort that is intended to enrich American corporations.
		And I think this gets to the point, you know, I used the word imperialism earlier on.
		Someone in the Washington Post in the past 24 hours was using the phrase petro-imperialism, the idea that it is controlling countries to extract purely their oil or gas.
		That obviously is, I think, a relevant concern for people like Diana and more widely.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Niall, I know you're not an energy expert, but I wanted to ask what you thought the impact to the global oil markets would be given that we now have a quarantine on Venezuela's oil.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		So the question, so there are two parts to that question.
		First of all, the last time I checked about an hour ago, the share stock prices of oil companies had risen largely, but the price of oil itself less so.
		So there seems to be, if you want to describe it as corporate optimism, I guess, that the Exxons and, well, chair funds already in Venezuela, the oil companies can go in and profit from this in the medium term.
		There seems to be optimism about that.
		There is not currently an oil shortage, of course, so bringing more oil capacity on could presumably actually plateau or decrease the price of oil overall.
		People who know more than I do about the mechanics of it in Venezuela say it would take a fairly significant period of time and a very significant amount of money to bring the infrastructure up to the level where Venezuela is suddenly pumping huge amounts of oil again.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Bloomberg says 100 billion over 10 years.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, that's sizable, sizable money by anyone's standards, I think.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		One more call for you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Robin, Old Forge, Pennsylvania, Republican, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, I just wanted to call and say that what the President of the United States did, Donald Trump, was wonderful.
		He did it.
		It was perfect.
		Everything went well.
		And the American people, well, the Democrats need to calm down because I believe this is going to be amazing.
		I think he's going to make Venezuela rich again.
		And he's not in it for us to take their oil and make us rich.
		It's to help the Venezuelan people.
		And to see them celebrating all over the place is wonderful.
		Can't you Democrats stop worrying about going after Trump and help other people be happy again in Venezuela?
		What is the matter with you people?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Last word, Niall.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I'm not here to speak for the Democratic Party.
		I mean, Robin is entitled to her opinion, of course.
		I mean, there are some people celebrating, other people protesting.
		The idea, I think, that Donald Trump is doing this to enrich the people of Venezuela is an idea that a lot of people, including me, are enormously skeptical of because he himself has been so clear about the desire to get Venezuela's oil and for it being American companies who will get that oil.
		The administration has talked about Venezuela previously stealing the United States's oil whenever that oil is in the soil of Venezuela.
		So I think that's why people are so skeptical of this idea that Trump is doing this for the betterment of the people of Venezuela.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		That's Niall Stanage.
		He's the Hill's White House columnist.
		You can find his work at thehill.com.
		Thanks so much for joining us.
niall stanage ▲ ● ▼		Good to be with you, Mimi.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Later on this morning on the Washington Journal, we will take a look back and a look forward at the Trump administration's immigration deportation priorities.
		We'll also discuss Venezuela's immigrants in America.
		That's with David Beer, Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute.
		But first, after the break, we go back to our question this morning.
		Do you support or oppose U.S. actions in Venezuela?
		You can give us a call to weigh in on that.
		The lines are Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		Republicans, 202-748-8001.
		And Independents, 202-748-8002.
		You can start calling in now.
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		Washington Journal continues.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back to Washington Journal.
		We are asking you about your reaction to U.S. actions in Venezuela.
		Do you support or oppose U.S. actions there?
		You can go ahead and give us a call for your schedule later this morning at 10 a.m., right after this program.
		It's actually going to be on C-SPAN 2.
		I had originally told you it was here on C-SPAN.
		On C-SPAN 2, the United Nations Security Council will meet to discuss those U.S. strikes in Venezuela and the capture of Maduro.
		This is a Colombia, which was backed by Russia and China, requested the meeting.
		The 15-member council will be meeting.
		They are scheduled to start right at 10 a.m. Eastern Time.
		You can watch that at C-SPAN 2, also on our app, C-SPANNOW and C-SPAN.org.
		We'll go straight to the calls now to Cruz in California.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		And I totally support the president on this.
		Venezuela fiasco is going on for, well, I totally support him 1,000%.
		He did the right thing.
		Ever since the Monroe doctrine has been in effect, nobody has bothered to defend this side of the world for us except Donald Trump.
		And I totally support him.
		Thank you very much.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here's Juan in Wesley Chapel, Florida, Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Juan.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you doing?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		I'm 100% agree with the situation right now because, like the other guy just said, who is going to do this?
		Nobody in the planet can sell Venezuela.
		And I don't know why.
		Honestly, you don't have to be that smart to think it is a right situation.
		I don't know why the Democrats think in the other way.
		Why?
		It's a no-brainer.
		It's a free country.
		It's a million of people celebrating right now.
		And the Democrats think it's not right.
		Come on.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Juan, let me ask you about the opposition leader, Maria Karina Machado.
		What do you think of her?
		Do you have an opinion on if she should take over in Venezuela?
		Or your thoughts on the vice president, Rodriguez?
unidentified		The thing is, okay, she got all the skills to do it.
		People like her.
		She's in the right spot to do it, but we got a problem.
		They got to get rid of this, Diosdado Cabello and the rest of that crew because they're going to do something to her.
		That's why the President Donald Trump is right about this.
		They got to take over Venezuela right now until everything gets stable.
		As soon as everything gets stable, she can go to the power.
		But you're not going to put that poor lady there.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was going to say President Trump hasn't mentioned elections in Venezuela.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Do you think there should be new elections and win?
unidentified		No, no, no election.
		Leave it the way it is.
		They got to put it together because the people like these people, both of them, Me Mundo, whatever it is, and her.
		But the problem is, it's a stable situation right now.
		Everybody can understand the situation.
		We've got to put it back in there.
		Mr. Maduro, the President Nicolas Maduro, wasn't the legitimate president of Venezuela.
		He is 100% right or Mr. Donald Trump did.
		And I'm agreed 100%.
		A million percent.
		A million percent.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		We got it, Juan.
		Let's hear from Democratic Senator Chris Murphy.
		He's from Connecticut.
		He was on CNN's State of the Union yesterday, and he talked about his opposition to U.S. military action.
chris murphy ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, clearly, this is wildly illegal.
chris murphy ▲ ● ▼		This is a president who has been operating illegally since he was sworn into office, stealing from the American people, seizing spending power.
unidentified		That's illegal.
chris murphy ▲ ● ▼		Now dragging America into a war overseas.
		The president cannot run a military operation of this size, cannot invade a foreign country without coming to Congress first, without allowing the American public to weigh in.
		America doesn't want this war.
		Nobody asked for this because it has nothing to do with American national security.
		And I think that's the most important conversation to have.
		Listen, Venezuela is not a security threat to the United States.
		They're not threatening to invade us.
		There is no terrorist group like Al-Qaeda operating there that has plans to attack the United States to the extent that you care about the drug trade.
		Yes, they produce drugs, but those drugs go to Europe.
		Fentanyl is a drug that's killing Americans.
		That's not coming from Venezuela.
		Venezuela produces cocaine.
		90% of it is not coming to the United States.
		This seems to be mostly about oil and natural resources.
		Donald Trump's entire foreign policy is corrupt.
		Russia, the Middle East, and now Venezuela is all about making money for his friends.
		And Wall Street, the oil industry, they can make a lot of money off of Venezuela if they run it.
		You saw within hours of the invasion the announcement of a group of Wall Street investors, energy industry investors, planning a trip to Venezuela to make money off of this invasion, off of this ouster.
		So unfortunately, once again, you're seeing that this president's foreign policy, the invasion of Venezuela, the ouster of Maduro, is about making his crowd filthy rich.
		It has nothing to do with American national security.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		That was Senator Chris Murphy on State of the Union on CNN.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And this is Sam, who's calling us from Michigan in Independent Line.
unidentified		Thank you for taking my call.
		And thank you to Senator Chris Murphy, who must be thinking inside of my head today.
		But I wanted to say I'm opposed to it more so because of how it was done, the use of the military.
		And I would like Americans to think for a minute to get out of the sports mentality of my team one versus your team.
		This person that we have in custody may not be convicted, right?
		There's a rule of law.
		There are international rules of law.
		The fact that Congress has not notified the president that it sets, because President Trump will not always be in office, leads to this potentially happening later.
		So we have to think about the broader impact and just thinking this is a sports victory.
		This whole mentality of being able to say, I'm owning someone is really going to be destructive in long-term plans for how we want to proceed as a country, as a united country.
		There are our systems of checking balances.
		The Congress is our representation, people.
		We should not be singularly giving this power to one individual to make the decision for us and advocating our responsibility as Americans to think.
		There has to be a standard, right?
		So I personally believe, and I have no way of validating this, that maybe people in private industry knew about this and somebody in Congress didn't.
		This is going to happen because of the financial implications.
		That's a problem not just for America, but for individuals around the world that had equal to greater power militarily.
		And they could potentially want to go into places that could affect us, not just militarily, but financially, and place young people at harm because we have no choice but to defend places.
		So thank you for taking my call.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And this is Carolyn in Akron, Ohio, Democrat.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Carolyn.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		Okay.
		I'm just, I'm disgusted.
		Listen, Trump is a 34-count felon convicted in spite of what his side say, 34, 34-count felon, okay?
		The notion that anyone thinks that he's doing this to help Venezuela or the American people by stealing Venezuelan natural resources is not in touch with reality.
		Okay?
		He's taking away our health care.
		He's taking away our rights on a daily basis.
		And the fact that people still fall for the notion that he is doing this for anything other than him and his cronies is crazy.
		And when I think about Cachado, number one, she's a woman.
		And number two, she stole what he thought was his by accepting the Nobel Peace Prize.
		She will never be in power, and he will make sure of that.
		So I don't know what kind of reality some people are living on, living in.
		I just, it's so plain to see, and most of us see it.
		But his side are just, they're just, I don't know what color their sky is.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Carolyn, let's talk to Michael in Warren, Michigan, Republican line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, how are you doing?
		I agree with President Trump.
		I think that he did the right thing by going in there and taking Maduro out and having him arrested.
		I think this is going to lead to a broader ban of connections, not just with Cartel, but also with the 2020 elections, with Dominion and SmartMatic and all that.
		I think a lot of information is going to come out on that.
		So I agree with Trump.
		And you know what?
		I think the Democrats are crying over something because they haven't done nothing at all.
		Every time they've been in power, what have they done?
		What did they ever do to benefit the American people?
		What did they ever do to protect us?
		They didn't do nothing.
		All they did is create more policy and create more misery for the American people.
		Look at the inflation underneath Biden.
		I mean, come on, that was crazy.
		Trump is doing everything to take this country back and put it back on its right foundation.
		You know, that's what we have a Constitution for.
		That's what we have the Declaration of Independence for.
		Trump is not doing this for himself.
		He's doing it because he loves the American people.
		He's doing it because it's what's right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Annie is next in Tampa, line for Democrats.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Last caller over that sad.
		Yes, good morning.
		Yes, now that Trump has spoken to the world regarding his goal being oil and billionaires more for his billionaires, he owes these donors, these oil tycoons that got him elected and so forth.
		He owes them.
		So he's desperate to do that.
		But from Trump's mouth, not the media, Trump's propaganda, you know, maybe MAGA can understand that Trump cares zero of drugs, zero of anyone's national security, and he's using our military to do it for his own business desires.
		Yes, America is definitely last.
		And what a good coin about that peace prize.
		I didn't even think about that.
		He's so jealous of other people's accomplishments.
		And Biden gave us the infrastructure bill, which gave us new roads, bridges, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
		Trump is just taking everything you own in front of your face.
		So, okay, thank you, Mimi.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here's Thomas in Allen Park, Michigan, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Thomas.
unidentified		Hello, Mimi.
		I'd like just to suggest that we care so much about the Venezuelan people in Venezuela, but when they come to our border, we could care less about them.
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Robert in Middletown, Ohio, Republican line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Robert.
unidentified		Yes, I just wanted to say that I do agree with Trump on going in and capturing Maduro.
		And however, I don't know that I'm 100% on his side as far as capturing the oil because I don't know that this is 100% what that is about, but I do agree on the Maduro thing as far as the drugs and everything.
		Like we put up a wall in Mexico to try to help for the drug trafficking, as well as now they're bringing it over in boats from Venezuela and other various countries.
		So I do agree with that as far as the drugs.
		Do I ever think the drugs will stop in America?
		No.
		But, however, I just want to say I do agree with that.
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And PolitiFact has a couple of fact checks here related to Venezuela.
		For instance, here, when a reporter asked Trump during the Mar-a-Lago press event whether he'd spoken to Venezuelan opposition leader Marina Carina Machado following Maduro's arrest, Trump said Machado, quote, doesn't have the support or the respect within the country.
		PolitiFact says that Machado, who recently won the Nobel Peace Prize for her fight for democracy in Venezuela, had a 72% approval rating from Venezuelans according to a March poll by Clear Path Strategies.
		Trump said without evidence that the United States role in governing Venezuela, quote, won't cost us anything because U.S. oil companies would invest in new infrastructure in the oil-rich country.
		Quote, it's going to make a lot of money.
		You can see that at PolitiFact if you'd like to read more.
		Mike in Connecticut, Independent Line.
unidentified		Good morning.
		We disagree.
		I disagree to attack another country.
		And we have a history going back 200 years of interfering small countries in this hemisphere.
		It was not too long ago.
		They overthrew an electric government in Haiti.
		And look at the mess that they left.
		Everybody knows that he went there to take the oil.
		And this hemisphere, that's why America, look at the immigration policy we have.
		When America comes and destabilizes our country, a lot of those people come.
		That's one of the reasons why you got so many immigrants here.
		You stop messing with those little countries.
		Work with them.
		Every time we elect a president, bad or good, we got to deal with America.
		Now, that story, the rule, that, look, there's a lot of leaders in the world can't stand that convicted fella who's running this country.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And, Mike, we will be talking about immigration and immigration policy in our next segment.
		That'll start in about 15 minutes or so.
		And Senator Lindsey Graham, a Republican of South Carolina, was essentially issued a warning to Cuba.
		Here he is alongside President Trump on Air Force One.
lindsey graham ▲ ● ▼		We talked about a drug caliphate in our backyard.
		You know, we had Venezuela, we have Cuba, we have Colombia in our backyard.
		And these three countries have been condemned ever since I've been in politics.
		Joe Biden put a $25 billion bounty on Maduro's head.
		Chris Smith, the day he got inaugurated, said, I hope Trump will hold Maduro's feet to the fire.
		He did.
		So what has he done?
		He's going to clear our backyard of a drug caliphate, countries run by narco-terrorist dictators who murder, rape, send drugs into our country to kill thousands of our citizens.
		To my Democratic friends, you should be celebrating this.
		When Bin Laden went down, I was the first to applaud President Obama.
		This was one of the most sophisticated military operations in the history of the country.
		What they were able to do was amazing.
		They knew we were coming.
		We had a good part of the Navy.
		And they were able to capture this man alive.
		No military in the world could have done it.
		And as to this commander-in-chief, he did something people talked about doing.
		You just wait for Cuba.
		Cuba is a communist dictatorship that's killed priests and nuns.
		They've preyed on their own people.
		Their days are numbered.
		We're going to wake up one day.
		I hope in 26, in our backyard, we're going to have allies in these countries doing business with America, not narco-terrorist dictators killing Americans.
		This is a big frigging day.
		And everybody in the world is thinking differently than they were just a few days ago because of what you did.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		That was Senator Lindsey Graham yesterday on Air Force One.
		He said, you just wait for Cuba.
		Wonder what you think of that as well.
		Here's Darren in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, good morning, Mimi.
		Haven't talked to you in a while.
		Just a few things.
		The gentleman that called about the biggest sword analogy, I mean, is that who we are as a country?
		Or are we going backwards?
		And who's the first people sent in to Venezuela?
		Oil companies.
		I feel sorry for the people of Venezuela because we're going to screw them over like we screwed over other countries.
		And another thing I'd like to bring up is I actually came to agree with one Republican talking point.
		They always say, you know, it's not the gun that kills people.
		It's the person.
		Well, they say these drugs are coming from Venezuela, which they're not.
		Well, it's not the drugs that are killing the person.
		It's the person taking the drugs.
		That's our problem in America.
		So quit being hypocrites.
		Thank you.
@geo motion ▲ ● ▼		Bye.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Joe, Chester, Pennsylvania, Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Joe.
unidentified		Hi, how are you doing?
		I more than support it.
		It's a win-win-win.
		Win for the Venezuelan people, win for the American direct interest, and a win for American policy.
		We know Cuba is propping them up.
		But here's my main point.
		If they have the largest potential oil deposits in the world, potentially, why are we letting Chinese, communist Chinese, Cuba prop them up, and Russia have this almost unlimited access to this land?
		And that's right in our backyard.
		So we have a Monroe Doctrine, been foreign policy for decades, centuries.
		This is our backyard.
		And yes, it's a natural resource.
		It's very limited.
		The phones we use, the clothes that they're complaining on, made by oil, made by oil, made by oil.
		So, why would we let a communist regime have access to our backyard?
		Win for the Venezuelan people, win for the American people, and win for American foreign policy.
		So, thank you very much, and God bless everyone.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, on the independent line in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Dan, you're next, Dan.
		Lost Dan, Pete, Atlanta, Democrat.
		Pete, are you there?
unidentified		Yes, I am, Lady.
		Thanks a lot for taking my call.
		I just wanted to say, you know, you know, you know, you know, Americans, can I just say, you know, some Americans are not too bright.
		And let me tell you why I say that.
		You know, you know, this and this other talk about us going into Honduras or going into Cuba or going into Colombia.
		That's crazy.
		That will never happen.
		You know why?
		Because they don't have a vast oil supply.
		If we were to go into Cuba, if we were to go into Colombia, as Colin Powell said, if we break it, we own it.
		Now we got to try to govern these countries.
		Trump ain't trying to govern nothing.
		Okay?
		Okay, he doesn't even care about the Venezuelan people.
		The only thing that this thing is about all, so those other countries that, you know, like I say, like I said, like Lindsey Graham said, Cuba has got it, Cuba ain't got nothing to worry about because they have no off.
		If you don't have something that Trump can make money off of, you don't have to worry about being like I say because being invaded.
		And like I said, like I said, and like I said, when David French wrote that book, it simply says, everything Trump touches dies.
		And just one last thing, Meet me.
		You ought to play because we're not getting the points play the times that Trump said that we're not going to be nation building.
		They got 15 or 16 clips.
		Can you at least play two or three to where Trump is strongly criticizing about going into this far and far far?
		Well, let's hear Trump works about what he's doing.
		Trump will tell you himself that what he's doing is wrong.
		Why don't you play a couple of those, meet me?
		Those are not hard to find.
		Let's not buy.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Chuck in Pittsburgh, Republican line.
		Go ahead, Chuck.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		That last gentleman, not the one there, but he stole my thunder.
		I was thinking very hard about Trump wants that oil.
		And in reality, Russia, all of them, North Korea, China, they depended on that oil.
		But I just wanted to say that I believe come June of July when all the stuff that Trump has been doing is going to come about and the Democrats are going to find a way to not realize and give him the credit.
		And I take a ball for that man.
		That's all I have to say.
		God bless him.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Steve next in Georgia, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Steve.
unidentified		Good morning, Ceaseman.
		I was just wondering, I am against the war in Venezuela.
		This is all about oil.
		And I was just wondering whether Baron Trump has signed up for the draft.
		And if his kid was going to Venezuela, whether he'd be so blustery about it.
		This is about oil, and he's probably protecting his friends that have contributed to his stupid ballroom and other things.
		Also, they probably, the big contributors, are paying him so that he won't release the Epstein files.
		And this has nothing to do with anything but oil.
		If they didn't have any oil, take my word for it, we wouldn't be starting with him.
		We'd be letting him get away with this unless Trump was getting his cut.
		And that's all I have to say.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And this is what Politico says.
		Congress confronts Venezuela fallout.
		It says Marco Rubio, Pete Hegseth, and other administration officials will brief top lawmakers Monday.
		That's today.
		It says the Senate is poised to vote to limit further attacks without lawmaker approval.
		It says Secretary of State Rubio, Defense Secretary Hegseth, Attorney General Bondi, CIA Director Radcliffe, and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair Kane will brief top lawmakers on this weekend's Venezuela attack at 5.30 p.m. Monday.
		That is in Politico if you'd like to see that.
		Dan in Oregon, Democrat, good morning, Dan.
unidentified		Good morning, C-STAN, and good morning, America.
		You know, I was sitting here listening to this show, and I was just thinking about all the months that we've been down there as USA military, blowing up boats and having covert operations and sending more of our Navy down there into those waters.
		And I just made a little list, and I'd like to run this thought by America.
		The cost of all of it is on our backs.
		And I'm going to name just seven things.
		Every sheet of toilet paper, every scrap of food, every medication, every paycheck for all the military, all the covert people, all the bullets of the missiles and bombs.
		The fuel for each helicopter, plane, and ship have been on the backs of America.
		And it's been extensive and long running.
		And now I just wonder if anybody has thought about the expense that we have incurred to do this thing.
		And I'm not pro or con about whether Maduro should have been ousted.
		I am thinking that this is an oil grab, but the proof will be in the pudding in the months to follow.
		That's my whole thought for America.
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dan.
		And we've got some breaking news to share with you.
		Here's Axios.
		Minnesota Governor Tim Waltz drops re-election bid.
		It says that Minnesota Governor Tim Waltz announced Monday today that he is ending his bid for re-election.
		The reversal, which came amid mounting pressure from fellow Democrats, marks a major shakeup in Minnesota politics heading into the 2026 midterms.
		That's Axios' reporting.
		And here on the Sunday show Face the Nation on CBS was Representative Jim Hines.
		He's the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.
		He talked about implications of U.S. military intervention in Venezuela and international law.
margaret brennan ▲ ● ▼		Can you explain to us the administration is arguing that what they did is legal and that the snatch and grab operation of taking an indicted criminal, Nicholas Maduro, to the United States through military force has precedent.
		And they point back to what happened in the late 80s when Noriega in Panama.
		What's your challenge to that?
jim himes ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, first, it's clearly illegal under international law, right?
		No full stop.
		UN charter, no question there.
		Now, you may not care about international law, but if you don't care about international law, remember you're going to be making an appeal to international law to try to get restitution for the seizure of Chevron's oil stuff.
		So, maybe you want to rethink how much disdain you show for international law.
		Clearly, not legal under the Constitution because though presidents of both parties have argued against this, the Constitution is really pretty clear that the representatives of the people get to be consulted and ultimately approve military activity.
		That has not happened here at all.
		And so, again, there's nothing legal about this.
		And more to the point, again, under the international law point, think of what Russia and China just learned.
		Russia and China just learned that all you need to do if you want to go into Estonia is to say that the leader of Estonia is a bad person.
		You don't even need to make a particularly good case.
		Look, there's no national security expert saying that Venezuela was a mortal threat to the United States three weeks ago.
		So, what China and Russia just learned is that the beacon of liberty and rule of law in the world has now greenlighted snatch and grab operations in Estonia, in Taiwan, wherever Xi and Putin decide they want to go next.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		That was Jim Himes, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.
		We're taking your calls on whether you support or oppose U.S. actions in Venezuela.
		Here's Bud, Republican line House Springs, Missouri.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey.
		Good morning.
		I just want to say that the Democrats ought to just leave President Trump alone and let him do what he needs to do to help America because they're not helping anything with America.
		They talk about affordability, but yet during their time, they never talked about it.
		When I was in there, they never talked about it.
		We had inflation.
		It was 10%.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Bud, going back to Venezuela, how do you feel that U.S. actions will be beneficial to Americans?
unidentified		Well, you know, they're on the southern end of the Gulf of America.
		They're in with Hamas.
		They're in with Iran.
		They're in with China.
		They're in with Russia.
		He don't want weapons there.
		He doesn't want that influence in our hemisphere.
		And neither does Americans.
		It's that simple.
		All right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to David in Akron, Ohio, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, David.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, and thanks for taking my call.
		I'm against what's going on there.
		I'm 72 years old, so I cut my political teeth in the Vietnam era.
		I was just a little bit too young to serve, but I studied it.
		I was a hawk on the war at first.
		But then as I began to read, I read about the colonial history of Vietnam.
		And then it occurred to me that, well, what about our history?
		We have a history of rebelling against colonial rule.
		And we obviously most, I think, just about all the Americans know that we fought a war of independence against Britain, who was a colonial power.
		So if you fast forward to today, we have two streets in America, mainly is what I would say.
		We have Main Street and Wall Street.
		Main Street's where the work gets done.
		Main Street was given the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence to have governance over our citizens.
		But Wall Street is where the power, where the true power is.
		Wall Street is where foreign policy is set.
		And if you look back in history, if you look at 1954, we went into Guatemala because the United Fruit Company from New England wanted to make sure that they kept control over the bananas.
		So there's a whole history of colonialism.
		So Wall Street became a colonial power like England was.
		So, and I don't identify with that.
		I'm not a Wall Street person.
		So that's why I say I'm a Main Street person.
		What we're unpatriotic about is the Bill of Rights, the Declaration, and our Constitution.
		And that's not what this is all about.
		And anybody, and also there's kind of a Trump, what I would call a Trump deification.
		People treat him like he's some kind of God.
		Do you realize he pardoned a Honduran drug dealer who was convicted in the United States, convicted in the United States for bringing in 500 tons of cocaine?
		And yet they're saying that this is about drugs when they're not saying it anymore.
		But that's how it started out.
		Just like Iraq started out, we were sold a bill of goods in Iraq.
		And God bless the soldiers.
		I can support the soldiers.
		I just think that they've been led into some bad missions.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, David.
		We'll end it there.
		Coming up next, we'll continue our conversation about Venezuela with a focus on Venezuelan immigrants in the United States and the Trump administration's immigration policies and what to look for in the year ahead.
		That conversation with David Beer, Director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Watch America's Book Club, C-SPAN's bold original series.
		Sunday with our guest Hall of Fame baseball player and best-selling author Cal Ripken Jr., who has authored and co-authored more than a dozen books, including The Only Way I Know, Get in the Game, and a series of children's books.
		He joins our host, civic leader, best-selling author, and owner of the Baltimore Orioles, David Rubenstein.
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		On this episode of Book Notes Plus with our host, Brian Lamb.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		Irish-American writer Frank McCourt wrote a book in 1996 that was on the New York Times bestseller list for over 100 weeks.
		Over the next 20 years, Angela's Ashes sold close to 10 million books worldwide.
		It was translated into 24 languages.
		McCourt, who was born in New York City, moved with his family to Limerick, Ireland for his childhood years.
		Frank McCourt died at age 78 in 2009 of melanoma cancer.
		He was a guest on the BookNotes television program on September 19th, 1996.
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		Washington Journal continues.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back to Washington Journal.
		We're joined now by David Beer.
		He's Immigration Studies Director at the Cato Institute.
		David, welcome back to the program.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for having me on.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		In light of this weekend's event, I want to focus on Venezuelan immigrants in the United States.
		Can you set the stage for us?
		How many are there in the United States?
		What's their status?
		How many are legal?
		How many are illegal?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so there's about 1.1 million Venezuelan immigrants in the United States.
		And at the start of the year, the vast majority of them had some form of legal status through temporary protected status or parole or even citizenship or legal permanent residence status in the United States.
		Over the course of this year, about three quarters of a million Venezuelan immigrants have lost their status.
		About 600,000 have lost status through the Temporary Protected Status Program or TPS.
		And then you have another group that lost status through parole, cancellations, and revocations.
		You have people who still have pending asylum claims in the United States.
		That is not considered a status under this administration.
		They will still subject those people to arrest if they encounter them by border patrol or immigration and customs enforcement in the interior.
		And so even if they have an ongoing case, they're still being arrested, still being detained pending the outcome of that case.
		In many cases, the administration is actually working with the immigration courts to expedite and remove those cases from the immigration court docket and immediately remove those individuals.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And is that just for Venezuelans or is that all immigrants?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		That's really across the board.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's not a specific Venezuelan policy.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		About how many Venezuelans have been deported this past year?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't have the specific figures.
		It's going to be in the thousands.
		They've been running a pretty good number of flights, and not just to Venezuela, but to other countries as well that have been willing to accept Venezuelans.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Can you give us an idea of the history of Venezuelan immigration into the United States and kind of how things have happened, not just this past year or in the past administration, but even before that?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		When you're talking about Venezuelan immigrants coming to the United States, how did they come here?
		Well, the vast majority came legally.
		Historically, before the Biden administration, before the Trump administration, this first term, the vast majority came through temporary visas and permanent residence programs.
		Under the Biden administration, a good portion came illegally across the border, but many came under private refugee sponsorship programs, private sponsorship programs through parole, and through legal entry programs at the southwest border that were created by the Biden administration.
		So very significant portion of the population came legally from the start.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And many of those that came across the border were paroled by the Biden administration, which means you have temporary status.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What did parole actually mean?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a form of temporary humanitarian protection status, if you want to call it that, that allows people to live and work legally in the United States pending the outcome of their case or the outcome of whatever situation has allowed them to gain entry to the United States.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now explain TPS, temporary protective status.
		That was not just for Venezuelans, that was for other people.
		And when was that taken away and under what circumstances?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so there were multiple rounds of temporary protected status under the Biden administration.
		The first Trump administration on its way out the door actually gave them a form of temporary protected status as well, deferred departure, sort of a similar type of program, but there was protections in place to prevent their deportation to Venezuela.
		And then under this administration, almost immediately you had revocations of that temporary protected status.
		And now at this point, all of the temporary protected status for Venezuelans is gone.
		And so they're all out of status or pending the outcome of the asylum cases that they have pending.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So they are all now subject to deportation?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yes.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		If you'd like to join our conversation with David Beer of the Cato Institute, you've got a question about immigration in general.
		You can certainly ask that as well.
		The numbers are bipartisan.
		So Democrats are on 202748-8000.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		Independents 202748-8002.
		Now, yesterday, Christy Noam, the Homeland Security Secretary, was on Fox News, and she addressed that situation with Venezuelans in the U.S. who were previously protected by TPS.
		We'll play what she said and then have you comment.
gillian turner ▲ ● ▼		Tremendous concern among the hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans who are here in the U.S. legally through TPS.
		Here is Miami's mayor yesterday.
		She says, the elimination of TPS for Venezuelans earlier this year was reckless, dangerous, and wrong.
		No one should be forced back into chaos and uncertainty.
		I am calling on President Trump to immediately reinstate TPS for Venezuelan residents.
		Madam Secretary, are you going to force these people to return to Venezuela now, even as their government is in complete flux?
kristi noem ▲ ● ▼		Well, Venezuela today is more free than it was yesterday, and it's going to continue to be that way as long as President Trump is in the White House and is making sure that he's protecting the interests of the American people because that ripple effect will continue to bring that kind of liberty to Venezuela as well.
		These programs, we're bringing integrity back to them.
		The decisions are made in conjunction with the State Department, with the White House, and then we at the Homeland Security implement them and make sure that they are followed through.
		So every individual that was under TPS has the opportunity to apply for refugee status, and that evaluation will go forward.
		But we need to make sure that our programs actually mean something.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And that was Christy Noam, Homeland Security Secretary.
		She said that anybody that was previously on temporary protected status can apply for refugee status.
		Talk about how that works.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a very technical sense, anyone can apply for anything.
		It doesn't mean you're going to receive any kind of status.
		Really, I think what she's talking about is asylum.
		For people in the United States, that's what you're eligible to apply for.
		If you're persecuted in your home country, refugee status would be for people who are outside of the United States or have already been deported from the country.
		So if you look at it, asylum is a potential path for Venezuelan immigrants here.
		Many of them have pending asylum claims.
		As I mentioned earlier, they're trying to remove those people as well, detaining them, trying to remove them without giving them the opportunity to be heard, which is what the Alien Enemies Act cases were about, eliminating that due process and hearing that they're entitled to under immigration law.
		The Alien Enemies Act was applied to try to eliminate that opportunity.
		They're also working with the immigration courts to try to eliminate the opportunity for them to seek a hearing through other means through the expedited removal process.
		So I would not expect many of the Venezuelans whose cases are pending to actually receive asylum by this administration because of their anti-asylum stance.
		As you heard the secretary say, they think the country is freer than it's been in a long time as a result of the capture of Maduro.
		And while that might be true, the regime itself is still in place, and many of these people who face persecution there would still face persecution.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And asylum cases, are they still going through, or is the whole asylum system on hold right now?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Because I understand that there was a freeze.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yes, so there was a freeze, but you're talking about two different tracks.
		The immigration court process, that's still going forward.
		They're still trying to get people to be removed through that process.
		So if you have an immigration court hearing, that is still going to happen, and you would still be either ordered removed or granted asylum under that process.
		But not many people are receiving asylum by this administration.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And talk more about the refugee system.
		There is typically a certain number of slots, if you will, for people to apply for refugee status.
		What's going on now under the Trump administration over the past year?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yes, so at the start of last fiscal year, under the Biden administration, they set a cap of 125,000 refugees.
		That was allowed to come in legally.
		These are people who are abroad, who are facing persecution in their home country.
		They would be vetted abroad and then allowed to come legally to the United States through the refugee program.
		The Trump administration initially suspended the refugee program entirely.
		The start of this year, they allowed 7,500 slots, again, almost entirely for people from South Africa who are facing persecution there.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		White South Africans.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		White South Africans, that's right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to callers now.
		We'll start with Mark Wildwood, Florida, Independent Line.
		Go ahead, Mark.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm very aware of the libertarian stance of the Cato Institute, and sometimes it drives me a little crazy.
		But anyway, I hope America stays within its hemisphere.
		The UK and the UN and all that hemisphere, they need to do it on their own now.
		It's post-World War II, the 21st century.
		We can't project power like we used to post-World War II.
		UN and NATO, I wish they would move it to, say, the Gaza Strip or China or Russia and just get it out of our country.
		They're a joke.
		I'm just along with NATO.
		You know, I hope the best, hope and pray for the best for all the South and Central Americans that are here.
		I'm an American, born and raised.
		I'm a citizen, and we're a country of citizens, not of immigrants.
		But anyway, I hope they can all go home, return to their countries.
		They've had a taste of this great country and go back to make their corrupt societies and countries like America come compete like the UK and that with the rest of the world.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mark.
unidentified		Go ahead.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll see how many people decide to go back.
		It is something that many Venezuelans do aspire to: the opportunity to go back to their country once there's an opportunity for freedom and democracy again.
		At this point, we don't really know what the future holds for the government of Venezuela, whether there will be freedom there, whether it will devolve into some kind of civil war.
		We don't know.
		And so I think there are many who are just sitting tight, trying to figure out what's going to happen, just like the rest of us.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And the caller also said that this is a nation of citizens.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What's your reaction to that?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's both.
		This is a country that has obviously many citizens.
		That's over 90% of the population.
		But we also have non-citizens who contribute to this country in many ways as well.
		And so if you look at historically, the reason why we're such a great, big, prosperous country is because we've had so many people, both citizens and non-citizens, who've come here, built their lives here, and then their families and descendants have built this great country.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Robert in Marion, Louisiana, Democrat, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, darling, Danny.
		Good.
		I've been trying to sleep and listen to your program all morning.
		I'm so annoyed by what's going on.
		It really don't make no sense.
		Trump rolled over and steal a man.
		And then the people that's over here, he capturing them and putting them in prison camps.
		And now he's done the liberated country, so they are cheering for Trump for what he's done.
		But on the other hand, all of it don't make no sense because it's just for the all.
		Because he's not going to help them people over there in Venezuela.
		He just wants the all for his buddies.
		And everybody can see it except the Republicans that supporting Donald Trump.
		You know, what if Russia do what Trump just done?
		What if China do what Trump done?
		He done got a mile of the green light.
		So all you got to do is go to then capture.
		It's just like over there in Ukraine.
		That's in their backyard.
		Why they won't just let Putin have Ukraine.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Robert, do you have something immigration related for our guest?
unidentified		Well, that's what I'm saying.
		I mean, the immigration thing right here, he got troops in all the United States cities, and he's capturing people.
		He's putting them in camps and cages in Florida.
		But nobody don't want to say nothing about that.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, you look at the policy, right?
		We're talking about trying to do all these things to benefit Venezuelan citizens and how much we care about them.
		At the same time, we are pursuing a policy aggressively since the start of this year to deport people back to the socialist country of Venezuela and many other socialist and tyrannical regimes around the world as well.
		And so the concern here is that maybe we aren't motivated by freedom and we're motivated by some other concerns.
		I don't know.
		I can't read the president's mind.
		I can only go by what he has said.
		He said there are multiple motivations here.
		And one of them might be oil.
		One of them might be the liberation of the Venezuelan people.
		But so far, we haven't seen much liberation happen since then.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		The president did say that the Maduro government has been intentionally trying to destabilize the United States by sending immigrants into the country.
		He said that they have opened up their prisons and their insane asylums and had them come to the United States.
		Do we have evidence of that?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		No, there's no evidence provided, not in the charging document, that they have charged Maduro with various crimes against the United States.
		He's been charged with drug trafficking and other offenses, firearm offenses, but nothing about the intentional destabilizing of the United States or smuggling of persons to the United States, which would be an immigration offense.
		So nothing about that in any of the evidence that they provided so far.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Debbie in Fredericksburg, Virginia, Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Debbie.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		How are you?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead, Debbie.
unidentified		Yes.
		The Cato Institute, I just have a question.
		Well, I actually have two.
		Do you directly communicate with the White House about immigration and their policies?
		Do you help?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And what's number two, Debbie?
unidentified		Number two is, are the immigration laws and everything, do they do that to all of the countries or is it different for each country?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Do you understand that question?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Could you clarify a little bit more about what you mean by each individual country?
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, say, for instance, we have a policy or immigration law.
		Are those laws for, say, Venezuela, and then the same laws would apply for Iran or Iraq.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Are you asking?
unidentified		Is it all the same?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Does he study laws, immigration laws of other countries?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		I think I understand.
unidentified		Are they different?
unidentified		Okay.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so when you're looking at, look, the Cato Institute, we're a public policy think tank organization.
		We're not here to lobby, but we do have communications with administration officials and members of Congress.
		We're trying to educate the public about public policy from a libertarian perspective.
		When you look at what the laws as written in the Immigration and Nationality Act are, we're talking about laws that should apply equally to all countries, all nationalities.
		What has happened over the last year, however, is that the Trump administration has changed the law effectively for individual countries.
		So we now have almost 40 countries that are outright banned from immigrating legally to the United States as a result of executive orders by the president.
		We also have these various policies that specifically target Venezuelans, the Alien Enemies Act proclamation, which would deny Venezuelans an opportunity to contest the removal in immigration court.
		That is a country-specific policy.
		So there are country-specific policies within the broad framework of immigration law, largely as a result of the Trump administration's executive orders.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I want to read you a portion of the Washington Examiner's editorial board about crossings, illegal crossings of the southern border, and have you react.
		So they said this.
		By May, for the first time ever, no migrants arrested on charges of illegally crossing the southern border were released into the U.S.
		The Trump administration has kept the number at zero every month since.
		By itself, this is a huge historic accomplishment, but Trump has done much more.
		According to the Department of Homeland Security, the administration has deported more than 605,000 illegal immigrants since January 20th.
		Another 1.9 million have voluntarily self-deported.
		This means that in just the first year in office, Trump has shrunk the illegal immigrant population by 2.5 million, undoing almost half of the damage Biden caused during his four-year term.
		That is from December 31st in the Washington Examiner's editorial page.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so if you look at what the administration did on its first day in office, it suspended all immigration law at the southwest border.
		Every other administration before the Trump administration, and actually the last Trump administration, did the same thing using Title 42, they had to apply immigration law, which includes the right to claim asylum.
		They've banned asylum and the right to seek protection in the United States even after crossing the border illegally, even though that is what the law states.
		And so they've managed to continue with this policy, even though it on its face looks to be illegal.
		The courts are still wrangling over whether it's going to be struck down or not.
		We'll eventually get a ruling from the Supreme Court one way or the other.
		But that is the basis of the policy that we're seeing.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		But you're saying it's illegal.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What President Trump has done at the border is illegal.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		If you look at the statute, Immigration and Nationality Act, Section 208, provides for the right to claim asylum regardless of how people cross the border.
		People don't like that policy.
		They don't like that law.
		They don't like that rule.
		There have been a lot of debate about it.
		But that is the law that Congress passed in 1980.
		It's been the law ever since, and they've suspended it.
		And that is what's being contested.
		I think it's blatantly illegal, which is the same position of the first Trump administration, the Biden administration.
		Every administration in the past has followed this law except for this one.
		And so, yes, illegal crossings are down in part because of the suspension of immigration law at the border, but they're also down for a lot of other reasons.
		They were trending down under the Biden administration, the last year of the Biden administration.
		You'd already seen a 90% reduction in illegal crossings before the Trump administration came into office.
		That trend has continued under this administration.
		But I wouldn't say we've gone from a situation of abject chaos under Biden to the situation that we have today.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Frank in Birmingham, Alabama, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Frank.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I had a stirring question.
		It relates to definitely immigration illegally.
		But I'd like to cap that off by talking about the president himself.
		I'm just finding myself in some kind of situation because this president was convicted.
		This president is convicted.
		So you shouldn't go from being convicted.
		You're supposed to go to jail, not to the presidency.
		And I don't understand how Trump can do the things he's doing with this sentence hanging over him after he's president or what have you.
		But that just speaks bad of America, that we have a president that's indicted and found guilty, but yet he gets to be the president.
		And all these other things he tries to say and stop.
		I think that the part of dealing with immigration and all that, I mean, we need to really get a handle on what he's doing.
		And nobody really talks about it.
		I mean, that's literally what it is.
		I've been arrested before and found convicted and got my sentence.
		I couldn't go and register to vote because I had no rights to vote.
		So that dilemma, I hate to put it on this as you talk about the immigrants in that situation, but I just wanted to say that because nobody acts like that never happened.
		And that is just to my chagrin.
		And it really hurts because, again, I've done everything since I've got my conviction.
		I try to help get guys out of games.
		I work for America, City of Birmingham, and all this.
		But guess what?
		Until I got a pardon, I could not run for anything.
		So that paradox is just killing me.
		And I'm sorry to go off on what you're talking about.
		But I'm going to take this five minute to get it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Any comment?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would just say, if you look at our immigration laws and how they're enforced, there's much stricter vetting for people entering the country than there is vetting for entering the White House.
		And you're right.
		Immigrants coming to this country would not be eligible to immigrate if they had the number of convictions that the President of the United States has.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		You wrote a piece recently about the most important immigration stories of 2025.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Give us an idea of what you thought was the most important immigration stories.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		If you look at it, it's the whole agenda, right?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		So the biggest story for me is the cutting off of illegal immigration to the United States.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Legal immigration.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Illegal immigration.
		Look at it, he has banned about a third of all permanent legal immigration to the United States.
		He eliminated almost entirely the refugee program.
		Over 125,000 people entered legally under that program.
		He's banned about 20% of all legal immigrants on a country-by-country basis.
		This includes Cuba and Venezuela and many other countries who are included on this banned list.
		Now, about 40 countries are completely banned from immigrating.
		This includes spouses and minor children of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents are ineligible to immigrate under this administration's policy from 40 countries around the world.
		This is really the most extreme legal immigration policy that we've ever had in the history of the United States.
		And so, I would say that is, to me, the biggest story.
		And right alongside that story of legal immigration is the cancellation of legal status for people already in the United States.
		We talked about temporary protected status going away for Venezuelans, but it's not just Venezuelans, it's a huge number of other countries as well.
		Over 1 million individuals have now lost their temporary protected status.
		They had it at the beginning of the year.
		They were here legally.
		The administration eliminated that status.
		You add that with the elimination of parole status.
		You're over 2 million people have now lost their legal status in the United States.
		That's totally unprecedented.
		We've never had an administration who wanted to prioritize for deportation people who were here legally, who have been vetted, and have that legal status and working here legally.
		That is totally unprecedented in the history of the United States as well.
		So I would say those are the two biggest stories.
		The crackdown on the population who are here illegally, as well as what we're seeing in the streets in terms of racial profiling, demographic profiling that the Border Patrol, Immigration and Customs Enforcement are doing.
		That is also a major story for 2025.
		And going forward, as the number of agents increase, we're going to see even more of that type of behavior, people being stopped because they're a Hispanic construction worker.
		That is exactly what the policy is going forward.
		And as more agents come on board, we're going to see that happening in more and more cities across the United States.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Rick in West Hope, North Dakota, Independent Outline.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Rick.
unidentified		Good morning, and happy new year, folks.
		I would like to see what the speaker has regarding the failure of the Congress and the government of the United States to take the recommendations of the Jordan Commission on Immigrant Immigration Reform to implement it.
		I mean, it was endorsed by Congress, endorsed by Clinton, and then it was dropped.
		Just in the last 30 years, look what we've got.
		We've got a mess, right?
		So, what are your comments and thoughts on that?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Can you remind us about the Jordan Commission?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Jordan Commission was a commission set up by Congress to study the issue of immigration, make recommendations to Congress about how to pursue immigration reform during the Clinton administration in the 1990s.
		You know, it proposed a reshuffling of immigration, legal immigration away from family sponsorship, a crackdown on employers who hire illegal immigrants, as well as a path to legal status for people who are in the country illegally.
		This is largely the program and the platform that has been pursued by the various Congresses and administrations since.
		It's not something that Congress has ever acted on.
		So I understand the frustration of the callers talking about, you know, why has Congress not act?
		They've done these studies, they've had these commissions, they haven't done anything to change policy.
		And so why is it now that the president can come in and just decide what the policy will be even without Congress acting?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Fred in Jessup, Maryland, Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Fred.
unidentified		See, is the rule of law being handed out?
		We're a nation of laws, and what I see is, you know, bringing in these illegal aliens.
		Most of them are illegal.
		They're just bringing them in for the census just to count them as another Democrat vote.
		Well, actually, everybody's backfiring on the Democrats.
		Everything they've done is backfiring right in their faces.
		And they're doubling down on them.
		When they come over to cross that border, they were teaching these people what to say about the asylum, how to get through, to bypass our laws.
		Not one of them was learning English.
		You look in the cars they're driving.
		They still got their country's flags flying in their cars.
		They're not assimilating.
		This is totally backwards.
		I live in Maryland.
		I mean, we had a senator go to Venezuela over, they called the illegal guy, he was a human trafficker and a gang member.
		They called him the Maryland dad.
		They tried to portray it as, you know, you or I. I'm here, Legal.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		This is Garcia.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Kilmer Obrego Garcia.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Go ahead, Fred.
		Exactly.
		They went down and made it look like he was a legal citizen that had due process rights.
		They have no rights.
		I have a right as a taxpayer.
		I'm tired of seeing my money being wasted.
		And this is the crackdown on Democrats did this to themselves.
		They ruined everything.
		Medica, every social program, they ruined it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Fred, let's get a response on the immigration part.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so immigration law should protect the rights of citizens.
		And I agree with that completely.
		One of our rights should be the freedom to associate with people who are born in other countries.
		Legal immigration law should respect our rights.
		You look at what the Trump administration has done with banning even spouses of U.S. citizens from immigrating legally to this country.
		This is not a policy that is respectful of the rule of law, respectful of our rights to associate legally with people who want to come here and live here legally.
		So I don't agree with the idea that this administration is focused on restoring the rule of law.
		They're really undermining many of our immigration laws, including the right to seek asylum in the United States.
		That's part of our laws as well.
		But when you look at the legal immigration picture in totality, this administration has pursued a lot of things that would be contrary to the rule of law and undermine our rights, including the enforcement operations that we're seeing that are resulting in the harassment, detention, and arrest of U.S. citizens who are minding their own business, going about their life, being detained because of what they look like.
		They look like illegal immigrants to the Border Patrol, so they stop them and question them about their place of birth, where they're from, demand identification.
		We actually have an individual who our friends at the Institute of Justice, Institute for Justice, are pursuing a case who's been detained multiple times, who's a U.S. citizen.
		So I don't agree that these policies are protecting citizens' rights.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And what about jobs?
		I mean, given all these people being deported, those jobs that they might have had have opened up.
		So are Americans filling those jobs?
david bier ▲ ● ▼		If you look at the unemployment rate for the U.S.-born population, it's actually higher than it was last year.
		And the reason why you don't automatically have an increase in employment for the U.S.-born population when you deport someone is because you're not just subtracting a worker.
		You're also subtracting demand for workers.
		So that worker isn't just sitting around doing nothing.
		He's also purchasing things.
		He's buying things from the store.
		The company that hired them is also employing more capital.
		They're purchasing trucks and other vehicles and other things that the worker needs.
		That's resulting in increased employment opportunities for Americans elsewhere.
		So subtracting workers doesn't mean lower unemployment rates for the U.S.-born population.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Chris in San Antonio, Texas, Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Chris.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		But the gentleman, he just doesn't know.
		And I hate to call him out, but he should have come down to San Antonio, Texas when the Biden administration was running all the Venezuelan illegals through here.
		First, a lot of them got killed and murdered and raped.
		And also, they all had to pay $10,000, each one of them, to the cartel.
		If they didn't pay the money to the cartel, then they weren't allowed in.
		If they got in without paying the cartel, Catholic charities would not take them in.
		They would not get all the benefits that Joe Biden was paying out.
		They brought a gang right up on San Pedro, right up in an apartment complex.
		They killed people here.
		The police have put it under the carpet.
		A lot of policemen and other people in the city of San Antonio got paid extra hundreds of thousands to help move them through.
		It was not humanitarian what Joe Biden did.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I don't support illegal immigration.
		I want people to be able to have the opportunity to apply legally.
		People should come in a legal and orderly way.
		The Biden administration did a little of that, not nearly enough.
		And what it did do, it did very late in its term after a lot of the chaos at the border that we saw during the first two years from 2021, 2022, 2023.
		It wasn't until the end of the administration that we had a big increase in legal immigration that allowed more people to enter legally.
		That's the policy that I would support.
		I don't support the idea that people should just come across the border illegally.
		The administration's policies when it comes to legal immigration are the biggest concern for me is because you want to create the incentives for people to come to this country in a legal way that enables them to be vetted, to be screened by our law enforcement.
		And then when they get here, they have the ability to set up housing, work, jobs, a place to live.
		So there isn't chaos that we saw.
		We definitely saw during the Biden administration.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Tim, Democrat, Fayetteville, Arkansas.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, thank you for taking my call.
		I just want to take a look at the big picture historically with Trump invading Venezuela, a sovereign nation.
		My father was a World War II volunteer and gunner.
		He flew many missions over Nazi Germany to save nations from Hitler and the Nazis.
		It seems like Trump is doing the same thing that Hitler was doing and my father fought against.
		And I'm just wondering what has happened to the United States of America that we are now doing a 180, it seems like.
		Here we are invading a sovereign nation.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Tim, do you have something immigration related for our guest?
unidentified		Yeah, immigration related as far as Trump tying this to immigration, I guess.
		He's using immigration.
		He's using drugs.
		He's using all these excuses to invade a sovereign nation to seize oil fields.
		That's what this is about.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Last comment, David.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so if you look at President Trump, what President Trump's statements are about the Venezuelan situation, he has repeatedly brought up the idea that Venezuela has invaded the United States already simply because so many of its citizens were displaced by the socialist policies of Maduro.
		So they've come to the United States seeking safety, seeking asylum here, seeking the right to work.
		And he's called that an invasion.
		I think there's a pretty big distinction between a bunch of people coming to work and live here versus coming to take over our territory or to take over our government or to arrest our leader.
		That's an invasion.
		People coming here to work and seek liberty and opportunity here is not an invasion.
		That's really a rhetorical metaphor that's gone far off the tracks.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		That's David Beer, Immigration Studies Director at the Cato Institute.
		His work is at Cato.org.
		Thanks so much for joining us.
david bier ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for having me on.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And that's the time that we've got for today.
		Thanks for watching, everybody.
		We're back with you tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. Eastern.
		The U.N. Security Council is over on C-SPAN 2.
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		A live look at the White House on this first Monday of 2026.
		Last night, President Trump returned to Washington from Mar-a-Lago after a U.S. military operation Saturday in Venezuela that captured that country's leader, Nicolas Maduro, and his wife.
		Ahead of the president's arrival back here in D.C., he spoke to reporters on the administration's policy toward the South American nation and his potential plans for Cuba, Colombia, and Greenland.
		Here are the president's remarks aboard Air Force One.
		Hi, Mr. President.
		You came from a different country this time.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a little bit different.
		We have some good people.
		We have Senator Lindsey Graham.
unidentified		Hello, everyone.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We have Howard Luddick, Commerce.
		We have Steve Miller.
		We have a lot of people.
		We have Aaron.
		We have a lot of people.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Hi, Mr. President.

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