CSPAN - Washington Journal Washington Journal

All Episodes

Previous Next

Oct. 12, 2025 11:01-13:06 - CSPAN

02:04:49

Washington Journal Washington Journal

Participants

Main

kimberly adams

cspan 21:29

mark dubowitz

27:12

Appearances

benjamin netanyahu

isr 01:30

brian lamb

cspan 00:53

Clips

steve witkoff

00:19

Callers

hobbs in nebraska

callers 00:13

louise in virginia

callers 00:23

sean-2 in california

callers 00:05

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers.
		And we're just getting started.
		Building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most.
		Charter Communications supports C-SPAN as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy.
		Our coverage of the U.S. Navy's 250th anniversary continues this evening with a Victory at Sea concert with actor and retired U.S. Marine Rob Riggle as Master of Ceremonies.
		Performers include Patty LaBelle and the elite Marine Corps Band, among others.
		Watch live coverage from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania at 7.30 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN, C-SPAN now, our free mobile app, or online at c-span.org.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		Now we'll have a discussion on the ongoing partial government shutdown as well as efforts to achieve political consensus.
		And for this conversation, I'm joined by Bart Gordon, who is a former U.S. Representative, a Democrat from the state of Tennessee.
		Good morning, Mr. Gordon.
unidentified		Morning, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And we're also joined by former U.S. Representative, Republican from Indiana, Greg Pence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Mr. Pence.
unidentified		Morning, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us this morning.
		If you don't mind, would you recap your service, when you served, your districts you represented?
		Mr. Pence, you go first.
unidentified		Sure, I'm from Columbus, Indiana.
		It's the Indiana 6th District.
		I served for the last six years in Congress, went in in 2019.
		Prior to that, I spent a lot of time behind the scenes in politics.
		A lot of people say I look like a famous politician.
		Actually, he looks like me.
		I'm the oldest of six children.
		My brother, Mike Pence, served us as vice president, as my congressman for 12 years, and as my governor.
		I'd like to say probably most important accomplishment I have is I've been married for 43 years to Denise.
		I have three girls and a boy and 11 grandchildren.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Wow, congratulations.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Gordon.
unidentified		Hello.
		My home is Murfreesboro, Tennessee.
		In 1984, when Al Gore ran for the Senate, I succeeded him in the House.
		Retired 23 six years later.
		And I was chairman of the Science, Space, and Technology Committee, senior member of Energy and Commerce, and served a variety of other leadership positions.
		Haven't been married quite as long as Greg, but my wife and I have a 24-year-old daughter who's living in New York right now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Before we get to the discussion of the shutdown, I'd like to get both of your thoughts on the ceasefire in Gaza and the ongoing potential for as early as today, the release of the hostages.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Gordon, I'll stay with you.
unidentified		Well, I'm very optimistic and want to give President Trump credit for sort of, in essence, cramming it down both their throats.
		And I'm very hopeful that it's going to succeed.
		But, you know, there's going to be bumps in the road.
		So we're going to watch cautiously.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And Mr. Pence.
unidentified		Yeah, Kimberly, I've got a lot, a lot of skin in this game.
		I was in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983.
		Ashley fought side by side with the IDF against Hamas and Hezbollah.
		It's almost like we've seen this before.
		I too am very grateful for what President Trump has done.
		I'm optimistic, but I'm cautiously optimistic.
		We've seen this before.
		We know these people are horrible human beings.
		We've got to be diligent.
		We're sending 200 troops over there.
		I had served with 280 Marines that were killed when they blew up the bomb, bombed the barracks there.
		I hope we're very careful about where we put them and make sure they're not in harm's way.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Turning to the ongoing government shutdown, this is the 21st lapse of funding since 1980.
		There have been 10 shutdowns since then.
		And Representative Gordon, you were in Congress during the shutdown in the 90s.
		And we have a chart here of some of the previous government shutdowns in 1990, three days under President Bush in 1995, five days under President Clinton, 21 days under President Clinton in 1995 through 96, 16 days in 2013 under President Obama, a three-day shutdown in early 2018 under President Trump, but then of course that epic 35-day shutdown under President Trump in 2018 and 2019.
		Representative Gordon, you were in Congress during those 90s shutdowns, and Representative Pence, you were sworn in in 2019 as that shutdown was in its final days.
		Starting with you, Representative Gordon, do these government shutdowns achieve anything politically or policy-wise?
unidentified		Well, they're not good.
		But if they can achieve a compromise, then, you know, sometimes the pain can be worth it.
		Let me give you an example.
		In 1995 and 96, when I was there, Newt Gingrich had just been elected with, quite frankly, quite a few radicals.
		And he wanted to cut Medicare and other health care programs.
		President Clinton did not want to do that.
		So there was a standoff, very similar to the issues that are before us today.
		At the end of the day, a compromise was reached, and the federal government wound up running a surplus for a few years.
		So compromise can be good.
		And again, if that's the result of a shutdown, then you're making, I guess, you know, lemonade out of lemons.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Pence, what do you think shutdowns accomplish, if anything?
unidentified		Well, I will say this.
		I know that I'm sure Bart experienced the same thing in 2019.
		It's very frustrating for members that go to Washington, D.C. to get something done, particularly when you're home.
		You've been home for a while.
		This was just after the August recess, so folks have been home quite a bit.
		I wanted to be there.
		I was on the Energy and Commerce Committee as well as Bart.
		If I was in there, I would wish I was there to get things done.
		So I have more of a sense that things don't really get accomplished.
		I understand what my colleague says about forcing compromise.
		I'm not real sure that's going to happen this time.
		This is, you know, my family was original MAGA, if you will.
		You know, we want to get Washington, D.C. out of Indiana, out of our business.
		This certainly is accomplishing that for the Republican Party and for President Trump and his administration, reducing workforce.
		Now, I'm not arguing for or against that.
		I'll let the constituents and voters weigh in on that one.
		But definitely, this is working in favor of what the Republicans have been running on since 2015, 2016.
		And I don't really see them compromising at this point.
		So I think it'd be a little longer than the last one I was in.
		The difference between this one and 95 is that the members aren't here.
		They're not trying to do, you know, they're not doing their job.
		If Speaker Johnson would just bring the members back to work, I am positive that there is a bipartisan coalition that would be happy to move forward.
		They're already talking informally together in a bipartisan way.
		They just need to come back here, and I think you would see it over with very soon with a compromise.
		That would be good for all.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I think many Americans are not quite so optimistic.
		There's a New York Times-Sienna survey that shows most voters think America's divisions just cannot be overcome.
		And it shows a significant shift among voters as their concerns about the health of the political system overtake other issues.
		And it's that Americans have markedly less faith in the ability of the country's political system to solve problems than they had five years ago, with a large majority now believing that the country is incapable of overcoming its deep divisions.
		Mr. Pence, what do you think the hope is or what needs to happen to give Americans more hope that our politicians can actually come together?
unidentified		Well, you know, you had a show the other day that I watched that included my brother, and I think both your Republican and Democrat on that agreed that social media has had a negative impact on bringing people together.
		I've experienced that in my last seven or eight years.
		I do think, though, holding elected officials accountable a little more than I've witnessed recently, this, you know, being extreme on either side and not wanting to compromise shouldn't be something that constituents support or cheer on, which they do on social media.
		They want their elected official to fight, fight, fight, and not they need to understand a little more that that's not how anything's going to get done if everybody just fights.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		The show that you're referencing is our new C-SPAN program, Ceasefire, on which, yes, we had former Vice President Mike Pence as well as Rahm Emmanuel on that show.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And folks can go and find that show on C-SPAN.org.
unidentified		I think Bart and my show will be better than theirs.
		Rather than fight, fight, fight, I'd rather win, win, win.
		And that's what you get when you bring people together and try to have a compromise.
		So, Kimberly, let me give you a couple of reasons why I think we got here.
		One is the extreme partisan redistricting, the gerrymandering.
		You know, in the last election, there were only 17 out of 435 members of Congress that were elected in districts where the other party's president won.
		And so you're having, in both parties, oftentimes, the extremes are electing extremes in the primaries.
		They're elected in the general because there's really no re-election.
		And they come here to not to compromise, which I think is a mistake.
		And then you have, you know, poor old Speaker Johnson with a very small majority.
		And so he is hostage to his fall right.
		And then that's one of the problems.
		The other problem is Congress has gotten into a situation of like Tuesday, Thursday voting.
		And so members really don't know each other the way that we used to.
		There are no spouses around to speak of because you're not here in Congress that much and they're not getting together.
		You know, an example was Roy Blunt.
		Roy was a Republican, is Republican from Missouri.
		We had a chance to, you know, we'd be on the floor, we'd talk together.
		Roy's son wanted to go to preschool, where my daughter went.
		And he asked me if I'd write a letter of recommendation.
		Of course I did.
		And we still have dinner together every couple of months, but as our families.
		But you don't see that now.
		And if the leadership of both parties, I think, would bring folks together more, let them get to know each other better, then I think you could find a lot of compromises that could work and make things better.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Staying with you, Mr. Gordon, I want to talk about some of the nuts and bolts of some of the actual debates around this current shutdown, specifically these expiring Affordable Care Act premium tax credits.
		And, you know, Republicans are asking for a clean CR, as they call it.
		The Democrats want to see some promises on health care, but there seems to be a real issue of trust here, especially in light of the rescissions that the president enacted earlier this year.
		What do you think it's going to take to actually get Democrats to believe that Republicans, if they make a deal, that it'll stick?
unidentified		You know, honestly, I think Republicans will stick to the deal.
		It's President Trump that is saying that he's not going to.
		And he's already demonstrated that he's not going to follow the law in terms of spending the money where it's supposed to be spent.
		And so somewhere he has to convince the Democrats and his Republicans in Congress that he will follow the law and spend the money as they allocated it.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Pence, your thoughts on that?
unidentified		Yeah, I think this is an issue that's a real sticking point for the Freedom Caucus and some of the harder-right people in the Republican conference.
		So it will be difficult in the House to accept that compromise, and particularly when a focus on reforming fraud and waste in Medicaid has been something that the president campaigned on, and that's been talked about.
		About a year ago, we had coming into our conference, Vic Rashwami and Elon Musk came in and they talked about forming Doge and coming in and doing something about the waste and the fraud in Medicare and Medicaid.
		I think this is a real sticking point for the Republicans.
		I'm not against it.
		I'm not against the compromise, but I think it'll be a hard-fought compromise, actually.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We're going to be taking.
unidentified		Nobody's supporting fraud.
		Again, again, I think any kind of changes that could make to reduce fraud would be a bipartisan win-for-all.
		It's just not just generally cutting and reducing those premiums.
		You know, I had a physical, I'm at that time of life where I have an annual physical, and I had to have some follow-up tests and things of that nature.
		The bills that came in, I mean, they were frightening.
		I had, you know, I've got pretty good insurance, but most Americans don't even have $500 in savings.
		They could not have gone through the kind of bills that I went through.
		So it's frightening for people to think about having their health insurance either taken away from them or reduced.
		We're going to be taking very quickly because I do want to get to our callers, but go ahead, Mr. I think rural hospitals could be the inflection point of putting pressure on Republicans.
		You agree with that, Bart?
		Yeah, just I'm telling you, bring them back and members will work it out because they have common problems and there's enough that have those common problems.
		They'll tell the rest of them to get out of the way and let us try to get something done here.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Our phone lines for Republicans, 202-748-8001.
		For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		And for independence, 202-748-8002.
		And once again, if you're a federal worker, you can call in at 202-748-8003.
		And just to quickly recap where we are in this current lapse in appropriations, as is the technical term for a shutdown, our funding expired September 30th at midnight Eastern.
		It is the 21st lapse in funding and shutdown since 1980, the fourth during a Trump administration.
		That's the most of any president.
		The longest shutdown that we've had was 35 days from December 22nd to January 25th, 2018 to 2019.
		Now to your calls.
		Joe is in Chicago, Illinois, on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Joe.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		I'm calling because about this shutdown.
		It seems to me that the power needs to be given back to the people.
		This is the people's money, not the congressman's money, not the president's money.
		And for them to shut the government down, their pay should be cut off automatically because that means a government shutdown is when nobody gets anything out of it.
		So why are they still able to take vacations and live a life of rally while the rest of the country suffers through this government shutdown?
		I don't understand it.
		It's un-American.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Members of Congress are being paid during the shutdown, unlike many other federal workers.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Either of you have thoughts on that.
unidentified		Well, let me give you a collateral thought.
		Members of Congress have not had a pay raise since 1985.
		And, you know, what has inflation gone up since then?
		So, you know, I just bring that out to just let you know that they may be working, they may be getting paid now, but they're getting paid without a pay raise for 40 years, 20 years.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's hear from Brady in Dolan Springs, Arizona on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Brady.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
		I'm going to talk about we're 24 hours away from an economic collapse starting next morning because of the 100% tariff enacted upon China.
		You're going to see the economic collapse, collapse, and the de-dollarization in full effect within 24 hours.
		So prepare yourself.
		The market is going to collapse next week.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Pence, do you have any thoughts on President Trump's tariff policies, particularly the latest escalation with China?
unidentified		Well, China, we are in an economic fight with China.
		We've acknowledged that on many different fronts.
		I applaud his addressing that issue.
		Now, this is an example of China, whether it's critical minerals or continued theft of intellectual property, cutting off.
		I'm in soybean land.
		We grow a lot of soybeans here, and China's not buying any soybeans.
		Somebody had to take this on.
		We were going down a one-way street.
		I think your caller's concern is a valid concern.
		I don't know if the economic crisis is going to be next week, but we've got to address this tilt of economic power to China.
		And President Trump is doing that, hopefully successfully.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Michael is in New Kensington, Pennsylvania, on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Michael.
unidentified		Yes, thanks for taking my call.
		And two reasonable gentlemen I think you have on right now that are talking some sense.
		And I wanted to particularly ask the Democrat representative, which seems to be kind of a moderate Democrat.
		And I am concerned about the polarization in this country.
		And I think the biggest problem in the polarization is the leftist tilt of the media.
		There's so little, when you look at the peace process, and there's so many things, the decrease in inflation, and so many things that President Trump has achieved, yet there is no positive news of that.
		And I'd like his opinion on what has led to this polarization.
		I think it's the media has a lot to do with it.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Gordon?
unidentified		Well, social media has had an impact, but the left doesn't have a monopoly on being biased.
		You've got biased news each way.
		And what's happened to a great extent, particularly with social media, with all the algorithm that goes on, you're being fed things you want to hear, and you're not really hearing what other people are hearing.
		So I think there is, again, the so-called left does not have a monopoly on being biased.
		And there's a variety of stations, keep turning the channels.
		You'll find some.
		Quite frankly, C-SPAN, from all the time that I've been involved with C-SPAN and the various programs they have, is, I think, right down the middle and trying to do the right thing.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Dolores is in.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Oh, did you have something, Mr. Pence?
unidentified		I do.
		I think Bart's spot on there.
		You know, if you notice, if you do switch from channel to channel, they're all talking about the same issue versus C-SPAN's going to bring new issues, bring ideas that people have to the table to discuss, like we're doing today.
		But what's happened is the mainstream media, left and right center, is all reporting on what's trending on social media.
		So you're all getting your version or your side of whatever's trending on social media, which can be stirred up by the extremes on either side.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Dolores.
unidentified		Well, the other problem is that media, most media, most paid media, private sector media, their anchors are all paid by the eyeballs, by the number of people that are watching them.
		And you really don't get much of an audience to be middle of the road.
		You have to dictate yourself to the extremes.
		That's how you build up your audience, and that's how you get paid more.
		That's, I think, not a good incentive.
		All right.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We're going to go to Dolores in Reno, Nevada on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Dolores.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		I'm a veteran.
		My son is active duty, Marine Corps.
		I want to remind my fellow Americans: the medical health care, Trump had a concept, his first administration, big or better.
		We have heard nothing.
		There's no health plan coming from him.
		Number two, the cushioners in Gaza and all that is very disturbing to me.
		I thought they were not working for the government.
louise in virginia ▲ ● ▼		And then I just heard that his security clearance was not passed, but just written off.
louise in virginia ▲ ● ▼		And number three, if the Republicans are so against any entitlements, maybe all Republicans should just opt out of all the Social Security, you know, the FEMA when they have no house anymore with the flooding and all of that.
unidentified		I mean, that would bring down the deficit.
unidentified		Thanks so much.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Pence, did you have any thoughts on what Dolores was saying?
unidentified		It was almost a little more of a question.
		I didn't understand what her first point about the health care and if that was impacting her son.
		I hope that's not the case.
		I certainly hope the military is taken care of medically.
		And I was really glad to hear that President Trump was going to pay him on the 15th.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I'll just add a little bit more context to that.
		This is a story in the New York Times as well as reported elsewhere that Trump has said he will pay the troops despite the government shutdown and has identified funds even though Congress has not appropriated any new money for the military.
		President Trump said on Saturday that he had identified funds that would allow the government to pay members of the military.
		Pentagon officials said they plan to tap about $8 billion in unspent research, testing, and evaluation money from the prior fiscal year, which they would use to issue mid-month paychecks to service members in the event the funding lapse continues beyond October 15th, the next date they are set to be paid.
		But I believe Dolores was talking about health care workers, and I believe even those in the VA, although they may be continuing to work, have to work unpaid during this partial government shutdown.
		Mr. Gordon, you have something?
unidentified		Yeah, Kimberly.
		You know, I think the president did the right thing, but the wrong way.
		You know, he's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
		And that he's taking money from research in drones, AI, and other areas, which we're going to need to defend ourselves.
		And quite frankly, it looks like it's being done illegally.
		All they have to do, there's a bipartisan bill on the floor right now to pay the troops.
		Nothing else.
		Just narrow it down to pay the troops right now.
		All the Speaker has to do is call people back, and that would pass overwhelmingly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Brian is in Albuquerque, New Mexico on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Brian.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		Pleasure to speak with you.
		So much to say.
		You know, Congress has been broken for decades.
		And, you know, we've stopped enforcing laws for decades, like Sherman Antitrust, immigration laws, employment laws.
		You know, Trump's cracking down on illegal immigrants.
		But yet he's not paying any attention to all the businesses that broke the law and hired them.
		So we have selective law enforcement or no law enforcement.
		And we're just playing a game of pretend.
		And now we have King Donald with a completely dysfunctional Congress doing nothing to stand up to him.
		It's unbelievable.
		And I'd also like to state, going back to the media, you know, our corporate media, I wish they would report on what Congress does instead of reporting on what politicians say.
		There's a big difference.
		And then, you know, the Democrats are stuck on stupid.
		They're a hopeless mess.
		It's unbelievable what they're doing.
		The Republicans, I want to direct this question to Mr. Pence.
		So if we look at what Congress did this year, the very first thing they did is they cut taxes for the wealthy mainly, but they deep tax cuts.
		And then a week or two later, all we hear about is the deficit.
		Oh, my God, we're $37 trillion in debt.
		How are we going to pay this money?
		Well, gee, are we taking stupid pills in this country or what?
		So, Mr. Pence, tell America how we are going to pay this $37 trillion debt.
		Yeah, it's a great question.
		I'm not pandering to you either.
		I think it's the number one issue that Congress has abdicated their responsibility to address, that we have to do something about.
		I believe and have said this even when I was in office, whether folks like this or not, we have a revenue problem, particularly in our entitlement programs.
		And we've got to address the debt.
		Just in the last 12 months, the number they're using is we've increased the debt by 1.8.
		You get to the end of the fiscal year and some things can be done to maybe minimize that impact, at least on paper.
		But we're still running at $2 trillion a year every single year and have been since the pandemic.
		And that has to be addressed.
		You and I are exactly on the same page.
		And both the Democrats and the Republicans many times don't want to talk about this.
		They want to talk about everything else.
		So until us voters, constituents hold our elected officials to the fire in Congress and say, do something about this, fix this, We're going to move closer and closer towards impacts on the dollar and reduction in benefits that we do want to have.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Gordon, before you...
unidentified		Let me end.
unidentified		Let me add a little sign.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Just before you do that, I want to read a comment that we received from X that echoes some of those points that Mike was raising.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And it says, do you believe a lot of the polarization is due to folks having a lack of critical thinking skills and who have jumped onto a populist identity politics bandwagon that thrives on the hatred of select groups of people, which was something else that Mike raised in his call?
unidentified		You know, I think that's sort of an easy general question or answer, if you want to call it that.
		Let me tell you a better answer.
		And that's what we did and what I voted for in 1996.
		After that shutdown, you know, we have an, you know, obviously our economy is an enormous economy.
		We have enormous budgets.
		So what happened there?
		We made a little bit of cut and we made a little bit of tax increases.
		And you combine those together and we wound up having a surplus for the next few years.
		So it just takes a little bit and a big budget to make a big difference.
		And once again, bring folks back, let them work together, go through regular order, and I think we could have that same kind of result.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And what about this idea that both of Mike on the phone as well as America Inc. on X raised that people's critical thinking skills are being challenged in this moment?
unidentified		When you say people, I guess you're talking about the population, the U.S. population.
		I think the U.S. population is, you know, actually they're pretty smart.
		And I don't think that we have a dumb country.
		And I don't think that's the problem.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Adam is in Washington, D.C. on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Adam.
unidentified		Hello.
		I'd like to say that my family and I have been solid Republicans voting the ticket line for decades now up until 2019.
		And we're just very, very disappointed with the direction our grand old party has been going.
		Mr. Pence mentioned that, this is an example.
		Mr. Pence mentioned that rural hospitals will be the inflection point for pain to cause this to change.
		And he's certainly right.
		But how does he look at it?
		And same with Bark, that the Republicans Party has really played a shell game with this sort of things.
		Taking a huge amount with one hand and then giving a little bit back to ask to be patted on the back.
		For what good boys they are?
		For giving 50 million to rural hospitals while taking 150 million away, or 150 billion away, and then, at the same time, demonizing the Democratic Party for shutting down over the stated goal of giving health care to illegals.
		But what they keep forgetting to mention is the thing that they're talking about, giving health care to illegals, is actually the funding that allows hospitals to pay for emergency room services for any person who comes into the hospital, which they are required to do by law and cannot avoid.
		They cannot refuse emergency services to anybody who comes into the hospital.
		That's the funding they're talking about, giving health care to illegals.
		And this is the same funding that has helped kept rural hospitals going in areas where health care insurance is almost non-existent.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, Adam, I want to give our guests a chance to respond, but also to give a little bit more context for folks who may not be familiar with the numbers that you're citing.
		Here's from KFS, which is a health policy and research organization.
		Under the reconciliation package, which was the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, federal Medicaid spending in rural areas is estimated to decline by $137 billion, more than the $50 billion appropriated for the rural health fund.
		Building on separate KFF estimates of state-by-state Medicaid cuts, this analysis estimates that the federal Medicaid spending in rural areas could decrease by $137 billion over 10 years, about $87 billion more than is appropriated for the rural health fund.
		Mr. Pence, did you want to respond to Adam's comments?
unidentified		Yeah, that's a continuation of what I was talking about.
		I had a very rural district.
		It did include part of Indianapolis, a bigger city, but mainly rural hospitals.
		Prior to COVID and the pandemic, prior to when they increased the reimbursement rates for various reasons, whether you had COVID or expansion of eligibility, these rural hospitals that were 80% dependent on Medicaid were really struggling.
		I had one hospital go bankrupt.
		I had one that was forced to sell before they declared bankruptcy and another one that was teetering.
		I think that that's all going to come back very quickly.
		Not only do I think that, I've talked to some of these hospitals, still live in the district, still know lots of people, and they're telling me they're doing everything they can ahead of these cuts to make sure that they can survive or figure out what they need to do when these COVID pandemic increases in reimbursements go away.
		And it's a real issue.
		And that's what I mean by the inflection point.
		I know my peers know that.
		I know my Republican peers that are in rural areas are hearing exactly the same thing.
		And in fact, this week I made some calls.
		I'm not proposing that they do what the Democrats want to do.
		I'm with Bart.
		I think you all ought to get back together.
		You ought to sit down at some point and talk and say, hey, let's address this problem that we all know is a real problem and it's coming our way because we already don't have a good health care system in rural America to begin with.
		We have shortage of nurses, shortage of doctors, shortage of services in rural areas, and they're struggling financially.
		So we can't just let that go away.
		Let me add a quick explanation point to, I think, Greg's good points.
		And that is it's a humpty-dumpty moment.
		Once you lose a rural hospital, it's going to be very difficult to ever get that back.
		And so this is a critical moment to maintain that infrastructure.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Alex is in Brooklyn, New York on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Alex.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		And thank you both for being on.
		I just want to put some context before I just ask my question.
		You know, somebody commented, I mean, the system has been broken long before.
		I think you can go back to the contract with America.
		You can look at Ginnerich's, you know, idea of what government should be like, which was actually, you know, inspired by Reagan.
		And MAGA basically started with Reagan.
		I mean, let's make America great again was his slogan.
		And you go to the Clinton years.
		He, you know, he was impeached.
		A lot of the right was radicalized then.
		You had the Tea Party.
		It flipped over to Obama.
		You know, we had the wars with Bush adding trillions of dollars to the deficit.
		You had the Tea Party.
		I mean, this isn't something new.
		I think where we're at now is truly an inflection point because you have visions of a future that do not have a bridge.
		There is no moderation anymore.
		When you have the culmination of the MAGA party, which is what conservatives have wanted all along, which is to gut government, make it smaller, make it white again, versus a pluralistic society that also lives within the ideal of what the American experiment is.
		is no bridge and you know we have a perfect storm because as people have been saying whether you want to Alex what is your question for our guests um What do you really do in a situation where you have ideals that do not bridge and you almost have two sides that do not see a middle ground?
		What is the, how do you accept that and how do you move forward with a situation like that, you know, the one that we have today?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Gordon, why don't you go first?
unidentified		Yeah, let me, you know, I was chairman, as I mentioned, of the Science, Space, and Technology Committee, and I had some wild ones on both sides.
		But we passed 151 bills and resolutions, all on a bipartisan basis.
		And the reason was we went through regular order.
		And regular order is just being fair to people.
		You know, in my committee, it didn't matter who you were.
		You could introduce a bill.
		We'd send it to the subcommittee.
		They'd have hearings on it.
		Then the full committee.
		People could have amendments here and there.
		And then at the end of the day, we'd get something passed.
		Seldom unanimously, but everybody felt like they were treated fairly.
		And so Went to the floor, they were supportive.
		And if we would just go back to more regular order, let everybody participate, treat for the minority to be treated fairly by the majority, really you're going to go a long way to working out these problems.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Pence?
unidentified		Yeah, I'm going to a little education on the regular order for.
		I hope maybe the listener understands this.
		But regular order is that you go through the subcommittees to the committee to the floor and you debate each way, and you have to get bipartisan support many times on bills versus this CR or continuing resolution where we're just going to keep doing what we did, which means if Bart and I were in Congress, we really wouldn't get any input on this, or we wouldn't get to give ideas on how we could better the government.
		So I totally agree with get back to regular order, but how long has it been?
		I think Bart might know better than I do.
		I think it's been 17 years since they actually did all the appropriation bills, passed the 12 bills and put them in a bill that everybody could vote on combined.
		That was very disappointing for me when I was in Congress that we weren't doing regular order, where we weren't everybody got a bite at the apple.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear from Jim in Ana Cortez, Washington on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Jim.
unidentified		Yes, I have a question for Mr. Gordon.
		Earlier, you said that you said something that I want to get clear on for myself.
		It was when you were talking about President Trump and the peace deal between Israel and Palestine.
		Correct me if I'm wrong.
		I think you said something like in praise of Trump, you said that he was cramming the peace deal down both parties' throats or something like that.
		So what that says to me, and this is where I want to get clear about what you mean, that seems to imply that both parties are, in this context, are morally equivalent.
		Is that in fact what you meant?
		Of course not.
		And both parties, let's just for clarity, it's not Democrat and Republicans, you know, it's Israel and Hamas.
		No, they both, you know, have shown resistance to peace agreements for different reasons.
		And that's why, again, I compliment President Trump on pushing this forward.
		I hope that it's successful.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Next up is Wesley in Glenville, Georgia on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Wesley.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm calling about the health care.
		See, when the Affordable Care Act first went in effect, my health care doubled because, thing, my daughter and them was in college.
		They went to apply for the Affordable Care Act.
		Theirs was $370.
		It was unbelievable on the price.
		They lived away in college.
sean-2 in california ▲ ● ▼		But I worked with these people that lived in the ghetto or the urban development areas.
unidentified		They were making more money than my daughter was and everything.
		And actually, they made the same amount of money I did.
		They qualified for the Affordable Care Act and they were paying $25 a month.
		And I pay about $1,200 a month now.
		And, you know, you're all talking about all these illegal aliens on it with the H1B1 visas.
		Why aren't the companies paying for these health care with the H1B1 visas?
		Why is my rural hospital going bankrupt?
		Because when the H1B1 visa expires, the government don't make them go back.
		These companies should be held responsible for these H1V1 visas, which would drive down my health care costs, which would keep my hospital open, which in the long run would do everybody better.
		But only people who are getting rich are Democrats in Chicago because that's where all the insurance companies are.
		Can you explain that to me?
		How are we going to fix my insurance?
		Because I could care less about the illegals of insurance than I could care less about anybody else.
		I care about my family and everything because my insurance is ready to.
		And, you know, you're not doing no.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So let's let Mr. Pence respond first.
unidentified		Yeah, Wesley, you know, I'm a small businessman, own my own business, and I'm on Medicare right now because I'm 68 years old.
		But my Obamacare didn't work.
		It doesn't work.
		As a Republican, I don't think Obamacare has worked.
		It certainly didn't work for me, a middle-class guy.
		I was paying $24.
		When you consider my wife and I and the deductibles, every year is about $2,000 a month going out of my pocket.
		Yes, you're right.
		There are those that it costs nothing.
		It's just, it's not a system.
		Now, Bart and I can disagree about this, but for those that need the help and the support, I'm okay with that.
		But there's too many people on it where I had to pay, like you are, $1,200, $2,000 a month.
		And that's what the Republicans are talking about right now.
		We have to address that the system is broke.
		But let's get everybody at the table and talk about that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Gordon?
unidentified		Well, I think Obamacare was a positive.
		However, it can always be made better.
		And again, as Greg said, bring folks back.
		You know, let's see what's working, what's not working.
		Let's make it even better.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's all the time that we have for this segment.
		Thank you so much to Bart Gordon, who's a former U.S. Representative, a Democrat from Tennessee, who joined us from Washington, D.C. this time.
		Thank you so much.
		And then also former Representative Greg Pence, who is a Republican from Indiana, joining us from Columbus, Indiana.
		Thank you for your time this morning.
unidentified		Thanks, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And up next, we're going to be joined by Mark Dubovitz, excuse me, from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies on the latest phase of the Israel-Hamas ceasefire deal.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We will be right back.
unidentified		We're Reagan.
		America marks 250 years, and C-SPAN is there to commemorate every moment, from the signing of the Declaration of Independence to the voices shaping our nation's future.
		We bring you unprecedented all-platform coverage, exploring the stories, sights, and spirit that make up America.
		Join us for remarkable coast-to-coast coverage, celebrating our nation's journey like no other network can.
		America 250.
		Over a year of historic moments.
		Only on the C-SPAN Networks.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		Philip Taubman and his brother William have written what the publisher Norton is calling McNamara at War, a new history.
		The introduction to this full-life biography of former Secretary of Defense Robert Strange McNamara says the following: quote, In McNamara at War, Philip and William Taubman examine McNamara's life of personal contradiction, unquote.
		It's a portrait of a man at war with himself, according to the authors.
		It's riven with melancholy, guilt, zealous loyalty, and profound inability to admit his flawed thinking about Vietnam before it was too late.
		And that's according to the authors.
		William Taubman, seven years older than his brother at 83, is an emeritus political science professor from Amherst College.
		Brother Phil spent 30 years with the New York Times and is an author of several books.
unidentified		Authors Philip and William Taubman with their book, McNamara at War, a new history, on this episode of BookNotes Plus with our host, Brian Lamb.
		BookNotes Plus is available wherever you get your podcasts and on the C-SPAN Now app.
		Get C-SPAN wherever you are with C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app that puts you at the center of democracy, live and on demand.
		Keep up with the day's biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from the U.S. Congress, White House events, the courts, campaigns, and more from the world of politics, all at your fingertips.
		Catch the latest episodes of Washington Journal.
		Find scheduling information for C-SPAN's TV and radio networks, plus a variety of compelling podcasts.
		The C-SPAN Now app is available at the Apple Store and Google Play.
		Download it for free today.
		C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		We're going to continue our discussion of the Gaza ceasefire as well as Trump's Middle East peace plan.
		Here to join me with for that is Mark Dubowitz of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
		Welcome to Washington Journal.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for having me, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you talk a little bit about the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, your group, what you do, and how you're funded?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so FDD is a Washington think tank of about 100 people.
		Our mission is to defend democracies, the United States, and other beleaguered democracies like Israel, Taiwan, Ukraine, Japan, South Korea.
		Those democracies are under a threat from what we call the axis of aggressors, which is really China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia.
		We don't take any foreign government funding.
		We're funded by American citizens.
		And we've been in business for 23 years.
		We actually were conceived of two weeks before 9-11 by the late, great Jean Kirkpatrick, who was Ronald Reagan's ambassador, a Democrat across the floor to work for President Reagan.
		And she was very concerned at the time that the terrorism being directed against America abroad, but also against Israel and other democracies would one day come to America's shores.
		And sure enough, two weeks later, 9-11 occurred.
		And we opened our doors shortly after that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Just to recap sort of some of the details from President Trump's 20-point plan, it includes several issues that have been sort of non-starters for Hamas and Israel, but it requires Gaza to be initially governed by a temporary committee of technocrats, including qualified Palestinians and international experts that would be responsible for running public services in Gaza, that Palestinians would be allowed to remain in Gaza, and that those who wish to leave would be free to do so in return.
		A big sticking point, and this one is controversial in the past, Hamas and allied factions giving up any role governing Gaza and agree to disarm, handing over weapons and a decommissioning process overseen by independent monitors, a temporary international stabilization force organized by the U.S. with Arab nations and other countries to deploy in Gaza.
		And then Israel would not occupy or annex Gaza.
		And it also includes a provision for creating a credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, which we recognize, and this is in the quote, as the aspiration of the Palestinian people, which is something that particularly Prime Minister Netanyahu has expressed quite a bit of opposition to.
		What is your reaction to the likelihood of all of these things moving forward?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's going to be very, very complicated and very difficult.
		I mean, I think this first phase is really important, is to get these American and Israeli hostages finally back, 48 hostages, 20 we believe are alive, 28 who have been murdered, and their bodies will be returned.
		And that seems to, hopefully, if all goes well in the coming hours, that that'll take place.
		There's a ceasefire.
		Israel is committed to that.
		And now the real hard work is going to begin.
		And I hope for President Trump, he will remain very focused on this because there's going to be a lot of tough negotiations ahead.
		Hamas certainly does not want to give up its weapons, even though that is an absolute and essential part of this peace plan.
		And that's going to be a critical element of any kind of reconstruction, any kind of path forward for peace and stability in that area and in the region is that Hamas is fully disarmed.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What about this idea of Palestinian statehood?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Because this has been something that does not enjoy much support in Israel.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, it used to enjoy a lot of support in Israel.
		The majority of Israelis supported a Palestinian state.
		But after waves of terrorism, especially after October 7th, I think the vast majority of Israelis from left to right are opposed to Palestinian statehood, certainly now, because their experience has been any time they've withdrawn from territory, they've withdrew from Gaza, they withdrew from major chunks of the West Bank, they withdrew certainly from southern Lebanon.
		It's all been replaced by waves of terror.
		So they don't want to repeat that same mistake again and withdraw again from territory and find that Palestinians now have tens of thousands of missiles and rockets aimed at their cities and open borders to commit more terrorist atrocities like October 7th.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I want to play a clip from Thursday with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu giving thanks to the Trump administration for the work to bring this war to an end.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Let's listen.
benjamin netanyahu ▲ ● ▼		Tremendous development in the last two years.
		We fought during these two years to achieve our war aims.
		And the central one of these war aims is to return the hostages, all of the hostages, living in the dead.
		And we're about to achieve that goal.
		We couldn't have achieved it without the extraordinary help of President Trump and his team, Steve Whitcoff and Jared Kushner.
		They worked tirelessly with Ron and his team, our team.
		And that and the courage of our soldiers who entered Gaza and the combined military and diplomatic pressure that isolated Hamas, I think, has brought us to this point.
		I want to personally thank both of you, Steve, Jared.
		It's been long hours around the clock, but not only work, I think you put in your brains and your hearts.
		And we know that it's for the benefit of Israel and the United States, for the benefit of decent people everywhere, and for the benefit of these families who will finally get to be with our loved ones.
		And I want to thank you on their behalf as well, and on behalf of the people of Israel.
		Thank you.
		Without.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mark, Prime Minister Netanyahu was crediting the military and diplomatic pressure for Hamas to agree to the initial plan.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What pressures do you think might have encouraged Israel to agree to this plan?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the Prime Minister clearly stated his objectives after October 7th.
		And I think that having realized most of those objectives, I think the Prime Minister was keen to move forward and find a ceasefire and a return of hostages.
		And the president realized that, I think, from the beginning when he came into office, that there was going to be no daylight between Israel and the United States.
		He was going to provide full military support to Israel to do what they needed to do to destroy Hamas and their control over Gaza and their control over the Palestinian people, and then really flip the script on Hamas and get the regional actors, the Saudis, Emiratis, Turks, the Qataris, the Egyptians, to come together and support this deal.
		And that, I think, made the biggest difference.
		It was military pressure from Israel and then the political pressure from the United States in coordination with its closest regional allies.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the political and diplomatic pressure globally about the humanitarian situation in Gaza played a role here?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		I think it actually played a counterproductive role.
		I think the attempt to isolate Israel, the attempt to deny that October 7th was a terrorist atrocity, the waves of protests, the pro-Hamas protests that we see in the United States and the UK and around the world, I think hardened Israeli resolve.
		And for the Israelis, made it clear that these countries had no understanding of what Israeli society had gone through.
		It was really President Trump who was decisive in coming in in January and again flipping that script and saying, listen, we appreciate that October 7th was the most tragic day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust.
		We, the United States, are going to back you against this terrorist organization, a U.S.-designated terrorist organization that's also killed and maimed hundreds of Americans.
		And we're going to provide you that support.
		And then we're going to try to find a way, while we're destroying Hamas militarily, to find a political solution to end the war.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to play another clip from that press conference on Thursday, President Trump's special envoy to the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, speaking about that pressure that Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu put on Hamas.
unidentified		Our job was the Prime Minister's.
unidentified		He had the job of protecting this country.
steve witkoff ▲ ● ▼		He had the job of making tough choices with regard to how tough to be with Hamas, when to be flexible, when not to be flexible.
unidentified		I think to myself all the time, I lost sleep over it.
		What would I have done in some of those circumstances?
		There were times that I thought we should be more flexible.
		Your country should be more flexible.
		The truth is, as I look back, I don't think we get to this place without Prime Minister Netanyahu playing it.
		I'm not just saying that.
		They're not just words.
		The president believes that.
		My president believes it.
steve witkoff ▲ ● ▼		He believes that Prime Minister Netanyahu made some very, very difficult calls, and lesser people would not have made those calls.
unidentified		And here we are today because Hamas had to, they had to do this deal.
		The pressure was on them.
		They were backed up.
		And you've got the bigger army.
		You were making inroads.
		And that's what led to this deal.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There's reporting in the Wall Street Journal today that Hamas has told Israel it has 20 living Israeli hostages in hand and is ready to begin releasing them as early as Sunday.
		Then the Prime Minister of Israel's office said on X that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this was earlier today, has just spoken with Coordinator for the Hostages and Missing Brigadier General Gal Hirsch, Prime Minister Netanyahu says Israel is prepared and ready to immediately receive all of our hostages.
		Those hostages were a key piece of leverage for Hamas, although it's painful to describe them that way.
		Once they're released, what approach do you think Israel and other countries will take with Hamas?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's all laid out in President Trump's peace plan.
		I mean, it's there.
		It's 20 points.
		Hamas must be disarmed.
		They must play no role in the governance of Gaza.
		Hamas terrorists can decide to leave if they want and can go to other countries.
		and then we can move forward on this peace plan.
		And I think it's really important to understand this is not just the U.S. demand or the Israeli demand, but this is the demand from these Arab countries and Muslim countries, all of whom understand what a threat Hamas represents to the Palestinians, to the people of Gaza, and to their own countries.
		And so these are demands that are coming from the regional players who know Hamas best.
		And they understand that Hamas, which is the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, is an Islamist terrorist organization that threatens their rule as well as the safety and security of Israelis and Gazans.
		So this is a pretty clear demand that Hamas needs to comply.
		They've given back the hostages finally after two years of this brutal war.
		And now they need to step aside and let other Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims rule this territory.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		If you have questions for Mark Dubowitz of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, our phone lines for Republicans, 202748-8001.
		For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		And for Independents, 202748-8002.
		Before we get to our callers, I'd like to know what you make of President Trump's proposed board of peace and the role that he'll play in particular if this peace agreement continues.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's really important.
		I mean, it's quite remarkable that the President wants to chair this board because he really is putting his reputation and his legacy on the line.
		It's going to be this board that oversees the implementation of this 20-point plan.
		And so instead of just kicking it off to someone else and not taking the responsibility, President Trump is assuming a huge amount of responsibility here.
		And clearly, this could go badly wrong.
		I mean, Hamas has shown over the past, not only two years, but the past 40 years, that it is not willing to comply with international demands.
		It has often defied those international demands, and I would expect that it would do so again.
		I don't expect Hamas is going to disarm.
		I don't expect they're going to voluntarily step away.
		They are a dedicated, hardcore, ideological, jihadist terrorist organization.
		You don't just give that up overnight and decide to slink into the night.
		So President Trump has taken on a huge amount of responsibility and accountability for this plan.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		President Trump is headed to the Middle East later today.
		And what are you looking for from that trip?
		Or what are you expecting to hear from him?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's going to address the Israeli Knesset, the Israeli parliament, which would be an extraordinary moment, I think.
		I think he's going to express this long-standing desire that he's had to get these hostages back.
		I mean, he's really made an emotional and personal commitment to this.
		So I think you'll hear words to that effect.
		But also, he will be calling out the region and the international community to stand by this peace plan.
		He's only coming in for a few hours, which was an extraordinarily long trip to goal halfway around the world just for a few hours.
		But I think it just shows his personal commitment to this and his belief that he can bring peace to the Middle East after, well, decades, if not hundreds of years of failures.
		So I think everybody's wishing him well, but there's going to be some tough obstacles ahead.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the president deserved the Nobel Peace Prize?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I actually, I mean, I was delighted to see that the Venezuelan opposition leader got it.
		I think she's a remarkable woman who has stood in opposition to dictators in Venezuela.
		So I think she deserves it.
		But I think the next peace prize should go to President Trump.
		And obviously, he's done extraordinary work here winding down this conflict in a way that unfortunately President Biden couldn't.
		And previous U.S. presidents have been unable to.
		So I think next year's Peace Prize should be his.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		If you have questions for Mark Dubowitz of the Foundation of Defense of Democracies, you can call us at, again, 202-748-8001 for Republicans, 202-748-8000 for Democrats, and 202-748-8002 for Independents.
		We'll start with Evie in Albany, Georgia on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Evie.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, and good morning to C-SPAN.
		And you're looking beautiful today, dear, with your outfit.
		I love that on you.
		One of the things that I think that we're forgetting, if you could put up the picture of the Gaza destruction behind us so that we can see what we're talking about here.
		What we are talking about is a place, a historical antiquity place that has been completely, I have been to Israel, and I just, my heart is broken over this.
		Now, we're talking about words, a so-called Trump 20-point plan.
		Now, they just had this morning the construct of this plan, which is basically some PowerPoint items that has been put into structures of paragraphs to claim plan.
		We have Netanyahu is not there, but somehow, as the lady said, Jared Kushner and his wife, his daughter, are there.
		They are not political representatives of the government, but the main representative who is not there is Net Yahoo.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And this man who just made that TV, that Netanyahu, where do you, Prime Minister Netanyahu is in Israel?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand what you're saying.
unidentified		They are at the summit.
		You know, Egypt is the land of peace.
		That is what the Egypt, and they've had many summits.
		They had the Bahrain.
		I tell you who I'd love to have you to bring on to talk about this is.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Before that, Evie, did you have a question for Mr. Dubowitz?
unidentified		Yes, my question is, could you please not have, if this gentleman would talk to us about the context of the plan, of the destruction that we see on the television, our eyes, not words, where millions of people are going to have to live tomorrow after we have this show of flying across the country.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I think we have the broad idea of your point.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I think one must remember, Kimberly, that October 7th, there was a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel.
		And on that day, Hamas violated that ceasefire.
		They invaded Israel.
		They killed 1,200 Israelis, Americans, and others.
		They raped, they tortured, they burnt people, and they took over 240 hostages back into the dungeons in Gaza.
		So every death is Hamas's responsibility.
		Every Palestinian death, every Israeli death, every American death is Hamas's responsibility.
		And you're right, and the caller's right.
		There's devastation.
		There's devastation in Gaza.
		There's devastation in those communities in Israel.
		And this is now a moment for rebuilding.
		And I think President Trump is committed to rebuilding, to reconstruction.
		I would say one thing about the Egyptians, throughout the entire two years of war, the Egyptians have refused to allow Gazans to cross the Egyptian-Gaza border and seek shelter in the northern Sinai of Egypt, which is completely unpopulated and would have been a perfect place for Gazans to have waited out the war.
		In fact, the Emiratis offered $40 billion to the Egyptian leader to help his economy and to build communities there for Gazans.
		He absolutely refused because he didn't want any Palestinians on one inch of Egyptian soil, which was really tragic and as a result led to a significant loss in life.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Denise is in Riverdale, Georgia, also on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Denise.
unidentified		Hey, how are you doing?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Denise, make sure to turn down the volume on your TV first, and then you can go ahead with your question for Mark Dubowitz.
unidentified		Right.
		I'm calling about all this cease, all this war that they have over there is about land.
		It's all about land.
		We want your land.
		We want our land back.
		So what are the Jews going to do that going to continue to take their land, make them live up under their rules?
		We let food in.
		We determine what you could get in, your water.
		The Palestinians were there first.
		That's just like if I invite you to my house and I say, okay, you under stress, come on in my house.
		And the next thing you knew, I know you taking my house over.
		That's exactly what they done to these people.
		So I think that they should give them a state, give them some of their land back, and then everybody can live in peace.
		That's what I think.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Your response?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, Denise.
		So, I mean, first of all, it's worth remembering the Jews are the indigenous people of that area.
		For, you know, over 2,000 years, they've been there.
		They've been speaking the same language, Hebrew, praying to the same God.
		And they have been there for millennia.
		If you want to fast forward to modern history, Denise is right.
		I mean, it would make the most sense to divide that territory and create two states.
		And that's exactly why the Israelis have been offering repeatedly to do so.
		In fact, the international community, when it created the State of Israel, the modern state of Israel, in 1947, I mean, it specifically mandated that there would be two states.
		The Jews accepted that.
		The Arabs rejected that.
		They invaded Israel in the 1948 war, lost.
		They lost in 1948, 56, 67, 73.
		They've repeatedly lost.
		Hamas again invaded in 2023, lost again.
		So at some point, the Palestinians have to take yes for an answer.
		They have to say yes to peaceful coexistence instead of yes to more violence and more invasions.
		You can't keep losing wars and then claiming that you are on the weaker side.
		If you lose a war, then you need to acknowledge that you've lost the war and then you need to go to the negotiation table and you have to give up your weapons and you have to peacefully negotiate a settlement.
		But if you keep invading Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself and it'll continue doing so.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Nicholas is in Peachtree City, Georgia on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Nicholas.
unidentified		Hey, you made a point in your show to the effect of saying every time Israel sees land, it motivates a terrorist attack.
hobbs in nebraska ▲ ● ▼		And I was just looking to press you on this point because I don't think Palestinians or Arabs or the other people in the region are motivated by a primordial hatred of Israel or Jews.
unidentified		There's very real history and conflict or excuse me.
		There's a very real history of suffering and oppression and at this point, what, since 48, since before 48, a very real track record of poor behavior.
		So I would like to ask the question as to what do you think motivates the people, innocent, people that start off as innocent little children to grow up and become terrorists.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, first of all, I'm not reading into people's intentions.
		I just read the Hamas Charter, which explicitly calls for the elimination of Israel and the destruction of Jews.
		So, I mean, they've been very explicit, and I think we should be serious.
		We should take people at their word.
		We should be serious about what they're committed to, and they're hard men committed to hard ideas.
		What motivates people?
		I mean, I think what motivates people is an ideological commitment to what they call jihadism.
		And it's the same ideological commitment that al-Qaeda and ISIS and Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations around the world have committed to, and that is to kill not just Jews, not just Israelis, but to kill Americans.
		And that's why we faced waves of terrorist attacks in the 1990s, culminating with 9-11.
		And then we had to go into the Middle East and fight ISIS because ISIS was committed again to killing Americans.
		And we've seen terrorist attacks in American soil.
		So I think we've got to remember this is not about land.
		If it was about a land, this conflict would have been solved decades ago because the Israelis offered a formula called land for peace.
		It was offered repeatedly, most notably in the 1990s under the auspices of President Bill Clinton.
		And you've got these Palestinian rejectionist groups who continue to reject this formula of land for peace and are committed to an ideological struggle.
		Let's be serious about acknowledging this ideological struggle and figuring out ways to combat it rather than living under the illusion that somehow they don't really believe in their ideas and that they're not committed to what they say and what they write.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mike is in Jarrettsville, Maryland on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Mike.
unidentified		Hey, good morning, C-SPAN.
		Listen, maybe you could explain this to me, Mr. Dubowitz, like I'm a fifth grader.
		I understand that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
		U.S. policy, I believe, is not to negotiate with terrorists.
		So that's kind of like, number one, I'm kind of stuck on that, that these guys are terrorists, and yet we're negotiating with them.
		And I guess my other question was, Trump has said the last little clip that we saw of him on his way to the Middle East said something to the effect of, you know, he's going to get the hostages back.
		Isn't that wonderful?
		Everyone has really wanted that.
		But other than that, more than that, he has not been, he wasn't very positive.
		He just said basically, we're definitely probably going to get the hostages, we think, maybe 99%.
		But then after that, he's not really sure how this is going to go.
		And last thing I want to say was that the organization, with all respect, Mr. Dubowitz, listen, Ukraine, honestly, is not a democracy.
		We'd like it to be, but maybe you could call your organization like an incubator for democracies.
		Hey, thanks, C-SPAN.
		Talk to you later.
		All right.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Mike.
		Look, Mike, you're right.
		I mean, we say we're not going to negotiate with terrorists.
		The Israelis say they're not going to negotiate with terrorists, and then we negotiate with terrorists and we give terrorist concessions, and then we're surprised when we get more terrorism.
		So you're right.
		I mean, this is a completely perverse set of incentives.
		We shouldn't be negotiating with terrorists.
		We should be doing what Israel has done since October 7th and what we did during the war of terror, which is to take the fight to the terrorists, ensure that they don't have control over land, that they don't have weapons, and to isolate them and marginalize them and ultimately show their people that this ideology of terrorism is only going to bring more death and destruction.
		So I think you're exactly right in this thing.
		I think Israel is faced with no choice right now.
		They need to get their people back.
		Again, there are American hostages.
		We need to get our people back.
		So we're ending up having to negotiate with this brutal terrorist organization.
		We believe in defending our democratic allies.
		Ukraine is a democracy.
		Zelensky was elected.
		Is it a perfect democracy?
		No.
		Does it have elements of corruption there?
		Yes.
		But it's hard to find perfect democracies anywhere in the world.
		And Ukraine has been fighting against a brutal authoritarian regime in Russia.
		Putin invaded Ukraine twice.
		And the Ukrainians have been fighting bravely against Putin and the Russian military.
		And by the way, it's worth remembering, I mean, Russia has historically been one of our main enemies.
		Ukrainians have been fighting against one of our most dangerous enemies without costing one American life.
		We're just, you know, we should be defending them.
		We should be defending Taiwan.
		We should be defending any country willing to fight in its own defense.
		And I think that's why most Americans defend Israel, because the Israelis have demonstrated that they will fight in their own defense.
		They will die in their own defense.
		And they'll do so against common enemies, against radical Islam, against the Islamic Republic of Iran, against regimes and terrorist organizations that threaten Americans.
		And they don't ask for American boots on the ground.
		They asked us to support them politically and militarily, and they'll do the fighting, as the Ukrainians have done for a number of long years.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Ben is in Montclair, New Jersey on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Ben.
unidentified		Hi.
		I just wanted to ask, why is it that Hamas have to surrender or give up their weapons, and Israeli don't have to give up their weapons?
		And also, I want to say, like, I don't really consider this to be, like, a war, because a war is when, like, two countries are equally armed to defend themselves, whereas Hamas don't really have any weapons.
		Israel has the weapons and the backing of the United States.
		So it is not really like a war war.
		And the thing is also.
		Hello?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We're listening, Ben, but did you have a specific question for Mr. Dubowitz?
unidentified		Yes, I want to.
		I think he says that Americans support Israel.
		I think Americans support Israel because I believe the American people are somewhat misinformed of what's really going on.
		And why aren't they showing the images of the Gaza Strip and the destruction of how Israel had totally it's like collective punishment.
		Whatever the Hamas people did on October 7th, why is it that the innocent Palestinians have to pay for collective punishment?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's let Mr. Dubowitz respond.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		So Ben, you need to understand, and I think it's worth going back before October 7th.
		Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.
		There was an election, and Hamas took over.
		They brutalized Palestinians.
		They threw Palestinian Authority personnel from the roofs.
		They shot them in the kneecaps.
		They took over.
		They then proceeded to turn Gaza not into the Riviera, not into the Singapore or the Middle East.
		They turned it into a heavily armed, heavily fortified battle space where they dug 500 kilometers of tunnels, not to provide bomb shelters for Palestinian civilians, but to provide places for Hamas terrorists to operate and store their weapons.
		then with the assistance of Iran, became heavily armed with tens of thousands of rockets and missiles and tens of thousands of Hamas terrorists.
		Then they broke a ceasefire and they launched an invasion October 7th and they killed, slaughtered 1,200 Israelis, Americans and others, raped women, burnt babies, tortured, and took 250 hostages.
		Okay, so heavily armed military with weapons supplied by Iran, and they launched an invasion.
		I think, Ben, you would agree, I think most viewers would agree, Israel has a right to self-defense, and Israel had the right to go into that incredibly complicated urban battle space where Hamas was using Palestinian civilians as human shields.
		Their entire strategy is to maximize the number of deaths on the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side.
		And as we, the United States, have discovered when we've been in Raqqa and Mosul and in urban environments in World War II when we fought all our way through Europe, it is excruciatingly difficult to fight the enemy when the enemy is using civilians as human shields.
		The United States and the Allies also unfortunately left devastation in their wake during World War II and during the fight against ISIS in Iraq and in Syria.
		And the Israelis have unfortunately, despite the fact that they've tried to minimize civilian casualties, have done the same.
		And that's, by the way, I just want to finish.
		That's why 914 Israeli soldiers have been killed.
		6,320 have been injured, including many with severe wounds.
		They could have very easily have destroyed Gaza from the air without sending in their men and women house to house in this brutal urban environment and risking all the lives that they lost and all the injuries that they sustained.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Valdez is in Mapleton, Illinois on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Valdez.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
		This is a tough one because everything Mr. Dubowitz is saying has been just basically the burning babies and October 7th and all that kind of thing.
		We all know that happened.
		That's a fact.
		But what you're not saying is how many people were brutalized on the Palestinian side previously.
		I'm a former soldier, enlisted, not drafted, a former police officer.
		I've been in public service and military service.
		I know what murder looks like, Mr. Dubowitz.
		And this is the same playbook that we used against the indigenous people.
		Attack them, put it in the news of the day.
		I'm an old West buff.
		Read the news of the day.
		Oh, the redskins and the savages, they attacked the settlers.
		They didn't tell you that they killed them first, went into their villages and obliterated them.
		Israel has been doing this thing, these kinds of things to these people for so long that I just can't even begin to grasp the kind of devastation.
		Remember what Minister Ghulam said?
		There are no innocent Palestinians.
		So conversely, Mr. Dubowitz, there are no innocent Israelis, is there?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, sir, thank you for your service.
		Clearly, your service was not in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, because if you were serving in that, you would know the history of it.
		And unfortunately, the history of it is repeated offers by Israelis and Americans to the Palestinians for peace and repeated rejection of those peaceful offers by Palestinian leaders.
		Now, I'm not saying every Palestinian is complicit in this.
		Of course not.
		There are many innocent Palestinians, but they've had terrible leaders who've decided not to accept peace offers and instead to wage war against Israel.
		If our southern neighbors in Mexico or our northern neighbors in Canada decided to wage war against the American homeland repeatedly over decades, we would use overwhelming force to protect our people.
		And sir, you would be there defending the American people as you've done in the past.
		And I'm sure in your service, you've defended the American people.
		So we would never countenance our northern and southern neighbors launching terrorist attacks across our borders and slaughtering Americans.
		In fact, when al-Qaeda did that in 9-11, we went to war.
		We fought the war on terrorism.
		We flew halfway around the world to Iraq and to Afghanistan and then to Syria to ensure that al-Qaeda and ISIS couldn't threaten Americans.
		And that's what Israelis have done.
		I think President Trump is right to put forward a peace plan that makes sure that there's no role for this brutal terrorist organization, Hamas, anymore, and to move forward on some kind of peace plan that brings some hope and peace and stability not only to Israelis but to Palestinians in Gaza as well.
		And thankfully, this is being supported by dozens of Arab and Muslim countries who I also understand how brutal and damaging and threatening and destructive Hamas has been for the Palestinian people.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We have a question that we received via text from Teresa in Little Rock, Arkansas, who says, Hamas is not the only terrorist in this region.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Does this plan cover the other groups?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Teresa, that's a great question.
		This peace plan specifically relates to Gaza and Hamas.
		There is another terrorist organization operating in Gaza called Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which is fully funded and supported by the Islamic Republic of Iran.
		So that would be covered under this plan as well.
		But these other terrorist organizations, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Houthis in Yemen, the Iraqi Shiite militias, and other terrorist organizations that threaten Israel and the United States are not covered specifically in this plan.
		But I think it's worth remembering that with the backing of the United States since October 7th, Israel fought a seven-front war against what I call the axis of misery, which is this proxy terrorist network that the Islamic Republic of Iran had funded and established and weaponized for all these decades.
		And Israel has done a remarkable job of severely degrading this terrorist network.
		It's not been eliminated, but certainly it has been severely degraded.
		And many of these terrorist organizations are responsible for killing Americans.
		I think we should always underscore that, that these terrorist organizations have American blood on their hand, and the Israelis have been bringing justice to these terrorist organizations, not only on behalf of Israelis, but on behalf of Americans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mark is in Canton, Ohio, on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Mark.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for C-SPAN, for such an incredible, clear-eyed, clear-thinking guest.
		Sir, I have two quick questions.
		Number one, if all the deceased, the 28 hostages, are not returned, will that cause a problem?
		And number two, you mentioned Taiwan a few minutes ago as a democracy.
		My personal belief, and it's also the belief of other people in DC think tanks, is that Taiwan is a kabuki theater of democracy and it's hand in glove with the PRC in order to sham us in order to get technology from the United States.
		And finally, that gentleman that called from the U.S. military, I'm a retired Navy veteran.
		There are no indigenous, innocent, indigenous American natives.
		They slaughtered each other over territory all the time.
		Thank you very much.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for your questions, Mark.
		And thank you for your service.
		So you're right, actually, in pointing out that if all these bodies are not returned, and Hamas has already said, they're not sure where all the bodies are.
		I think that's not true.
		But if they don't return these bodies to the families so these families can give their loved ones a proper burial, it's going to greatly complicate the implementation of President Trump's peace plan.
		So we're hoping, and I think as Americans, we're hoping these bodies return because these bodies also include Americans who've been killed and murdered by Hamas.
		With respect to Taiwan, we're going to have a whole discussion about Taiwan.
		I spent a lot of time in Taiwan.
		I think Taiwan is a very vibrant democracy under threat by the Chinese Communist Party.
		But you're right, the Chinese Communists have really done a lot of work to try to infiltrate that democracy.
		They run foreign influence operations against the Taiwanese democracy.
		They have agents in Taiwan.
		They try to influence the political process there.
		So the Taiwanese democracy is certainly under threat, not just militarily by the People's Liberation Army, but also through cognitive warfare, economic warfare, and cyber warfare by the Chinese Communist Party.
		And again, I don't want to get into debate about American history and the indigenous people of America, but I would say again, just worth underscoring because a lot of people forget that the indigenous people of that area are the Jews who've been there for thousands of years.
		There's been a continual Jewish presence in the holy city of Jerusalem.
		And I think if it's a very easy concept that today, if these terrorists were to lay down their arms, there would be peace.
		If the Israelis were to lay down their arms, they would be destroyed.
		I think it's worth keeping in mind that very simple conception of how one side looks at the conflict and how the other side does as well.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Skip in Michigan asks us via text, where will the released Palestinian terrorists go?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Skip, thanks for bringing that up.
		I've neglected to talk about the other side.
		So there are going to be 2,000 Palestinian terrorists released.
		And of that, 250 of them are terrorists who have received multiple life sentences for murdering hundreds of Israelis and Americans.
		And they will be released into Gaza.
		Some of them will be sent abroad.
		I don't believe any of them are going to be sent into the West Bank or Judea and Samaria.
		And it's a bitter pill for Israelis and Americans to swallow because when you look at the slaughter that these Palestinian terrorists who are being released were responsible for, it will make you sick to your stomach how they slaughtered really hundreds, if not thousands of Israelis, killed and maimed Americans.
		And these are men who should be, have been in jail for their entire lives and are now being released because Israel wants to get its hostages back.
unidentified		Is that all 2,000 of the people representing the group that you're talking about?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so these are 2,000 Palestinian terrorists who will be released, of which 250 of the two are serving life sentences.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Ray is in California on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Ray.
unidentified		Oh, thank you for taking my call, and good morning.
unidentified		So I'm wondering if this peace plan, once initiated, will Israel still be in charge of the water, the fuel, the electricity, the mail, and will Gaza still be enclosed behind 40-foot walls?
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Well, the goal, Ray, is that ultimately they wouldn't be.
		The goal is if you can get rid of Hamas, if you can stop Hamas using the territory to import weapons to threaten Israel, if you can get rid of Hamas and replace it with a peaceful Palestinian government backed by this international stabilization force comprised of Arab and Muslim countries,
		then ultimately over time, Gaza can become a self-sustaining entity that's not going to be a threat to Israel anymore.
		And if it's not a threat to Israel anymore, Israel has no need to patrol the borders, no need to block the importation of weapons.
		But for now, clearly Israel has to stay in control of those borders because it was through those borders that Hamas launched the October 7th invasion.
		And so Israeli soldiers are going to have to patrol this and ensure that Hamas doesn't reconstitute itself and then represent a threat not just to Israel, but to Gazans as well.
		So this is all part of President Trump's 20-point plan.
		Of course, there's a lot of steps to go on the implementation to get to the prospect where Gaza will no longer be a threat and will be a peaceful, stable, and prosperous place.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Joyce is in Brooklyn, New York on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Joyce.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I wanted to first of all say thank you to Mark Dubowitz because he's been amazingly clear-headed and calm and specific when he's talking about what has happened and what is happening now in terms of Hamas and in Israel's response.
		And I think it's sad that many of the people who are calling in are unfortunately seemed to just really have no knowledge of what was happening there.
		And my question is about, it seems like a lot of the talking points, which are basically talking points from Hamas, have become accepted, things that people who you wouldn't expect would be supporting terrorists are saying as though they were facts when they're really not based in facts.
		And how in this country do we respond to the fact that there's people, some of them I'm sure with good intentions, who are saying things they don't seem to really understand that Israel really, really is the indigenous home of the Jewish people.
		They don't seem to really understand that Hamas has made it clear that they don't care how many women and children, Palestinians, die in the, as long as it serves their purposes to destroy Israel.
		How in this country are we supposed to react when there's so many people saying things which really are not based in fact?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So Joyce, I want to let Mark respond because we're just about out of time.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, thanks Joyce.
		And look, Joyce, you're pointing to something which I think is incredibly difficult to understand, as you've underscored.
		I think Hamas has run one of the most successful information wars or influence operations really in modern warfare.
		And I think you see the results of that.
		This terrorist organization, designated by the United States, designated by Canada, by the Europeans, designated by a number of Arab countries, this is a terrorist organization that has slaughtered innocent people.
		And yet, for some reason, particularly in the demographic, the young demographic, the people that are getting their news from TikTok and social media, that the majority of the young in America support Hamas over Israel.
		Now, Israel is a democracy.
		It's an imperfect one.
		It has many problems.
		You may not like Prime Minister Netanyahu.
		You may not like his cabinet, but he will be voted out in a democratic election.
		And the United States and Israel have had a long-standing close relationship.
		The Israelis have been responsible for saving hundreds, if not thousands, of American lives through providing intelligence and counterterrorism cooperation.
		And yet, with that incredibly close relationship, this information warfare run by Hamas and its enablers has been incredibly successful in turning otherwise well-intentioned people who want to just see peace and stability in the region and the world into Hamas apologists.
		We've seen hundreds of thousands of people on our streets in America with Hamas flags taking over our bridges, our streets, our universities.
		I mean, it's quite remarkable to see not support for Palestinians and innocent Palestinians, but support for Hamas.
		Again, a terrorist organization that's killed Americans.
		It's sad, but I think it points to the fact that we live in a post-truth reality where people are actually not interested in facts and evidence, but they support agendas.
		And when you've got that kind of environment, it's very easy for our enemies, not just Hamas, but the Chinese Communist Party, the Islamic Republic of Iran, Putin's Russia, the Muslim Brotherhood, to run information operations and influence campaigns to confuse the American people, to divide the American people, to undermine our own democracy.
		It really speaks to a significant threat to our democracy and the democracies of our allies.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much for your time today.
		This was Mark Dubowitz, who is the CEO of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
		Really appreciate your time this morning.
mark dubowitz ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Kimberly, for having me.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And thanks to everyone who called in.
		We'll be taking more of your calls on Gaza's peace efforts in Gaza, as well as the government shutdown as we are in day 12 of that lapse in appropriations.
		Our phone lines for Republicans is 202-748-8001.
		For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		For Independents, 202-748-8002.
		And once again, we have a special line for federal workers, 202-748-8003.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Weekends bring you Book TV, featuring leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books.
		Here's a look at what's coming up this weekend.
		The Mississippi Book Festival, held at the state capitol in Jackson, features authors discussing Hurricane Katrina's 20th anniversary, the Iranian Revolution, Native American identity, and more.
		Then, Tom Johnson recalls his life story from serving as Lyndon Johnson's White House assistant to his news career with the Los Angeles Times and CNN.
		Historian Jordan Taylor looks at how foreign news impacted politics in colonial America, plaguing the revolution with misunderstandings.
		Watch Book TV every weekend on C-SPAN 2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at booktv.org.
		This fall, C-SPAN invites you on a powerful journey through the stories that define a nation.
		From the halls of our nation's most iconic libraries comes America's Book Club, a bold, original series where ideas, history, and democracy meet.
		Hosted by renowned author and civic leader David Rubinstein, each week features in-depth conversations with the thinkers shaping our national story.
		Among this season's remarkable guests, John Grisham, master storyteller of the American justice system.
		Justice Amy Coney Barrett, exploring the Constitution, the court, and the role of law in American life.
		Famed chef and global relief entrepreneur Jose Andres, reimagining food.
		Henry Louis Gates, chronicler of race, identity, and the American experience.
		The books, the voices, the places that preserve our past and spark the ideas that will shape our future.
		America's Book Club, premiering this fall, Sundays at 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only on C-SPAN.
		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		We're continuing our conversation about the peace negotiations over the conflict in Gaza.
		President Trump is headed to the Middle East later today in order to hammer out some of those final details.
		We're also talking about the 12th day of the partial government shutdown, and there's an update on the latest of that in thehill.com.
		Pressure is growing on Johnson to call the House back amid the shutdown fight.
		With the story going on to say that House GOP leaders are facing increasing pressure to bring the chamber back to Washington amid a shutdown fight with no end in sight.
		A growing number of GOP lawmakers are voicing frustrations with their leadership for prolonging the House recess, warning that the optics surrounding that inactivity could backfire on the party to the benefit of Democrats.
		The rumbling is creating a headache for Speaker Mike Johnson and his leadership team, who have made canceling votes a central part of the Republican shutdown strategy.
		In doing so, they're betting that an empty House will pile pressure on Senate Democrats to drop their opposition to a GOP spending bill and help reopen the government.
		But as the shutdown crept into its second week, neither side has given an inch, causing federal workers to receive diminished paychecks Friday and threatening a similar pay squeeze on military personnel who are at risk of missing their first scheduled paycheck next Wednesday.
		I'll add that there has been reporting that President Trump has found a way to pull resources from military research in order to give checks to military members during the shutdown, but not the rest of federal workers.
		Let's get to your calls on either of these topics.
		Ron is in Reston, Virginia, on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Ron.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		I just had a couple comments on the interview that you just did with Mark, and I guess some questions that I wish I would have been able to ask was one: if somebody wanted to with the Israeli military, it seems like they're made up of people from all over the world, not from Israel.
		And two, it doesn't seem that Hamas is sophisticated enough to organize such a plan as October 7th.
		And I think the main culprits were probably in Iran, and maybe Israel should have gone after them.
		So that's it.
		I'll listen.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Next up is Earl in Seneca Falls, New York, on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Earl.
unidentified		Yes, hi.
unidentified		I'm hoping that you can hear me because I have my phone off the speaker.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I can hear you.
		Yes.
		Go ahead, Earl.
unidentified		The lady from Georgia, the entire area, even under Roman control, was called Syria, Palestinian Syria, I believe.
		So there were both Jews and non-Jewish people living in that area for five to seven thousand years.
		So, you know, I was hoping to talk to the gentleman.
		How can peace be in the Middle East when people in Tehran back the terrorists in Yemen, Gaza, and Lebanon?
		It's not feasible until that is stopped.
		So thank you for taking my call.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Linda is in Granite City, Illinois on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Linda.
unidentified		Good morning.
		My biggest concern regarding this is all the people they're releasing that are known terrorists that basically slaughtered all the people on that day, October 7th.
		So that really bothers me and concerns me regarding that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Next up is Rick in Cottkill, New York on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Rick.
unidentified		Morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		To the last lady who spoke, most of the people have minor problems and were arrested for non-issues.
		80% of those people should have been freed.
		They should have never been arrested.
		They were never charged with anything.
		They're not terrorists.
		Number two, Netanyahu has no intention to stop this.
		He's going to get his people out because he can't take the arguments from within his own country.
		He's going to try to get them out, and then it's going to go back.
		He's going to claim that the Hamas is firing at them again, and he's going to start the war again.
		Mark my words.
		And the last thing is Trump sending Kushner to his son-in-law to negotiate deals.
		He's a real estate guy.
		Gee, I wonder what that's all about.
		Anyway, thank you for taking my call.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Virginia is in Hancock, Michigan on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Virginia.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I just wanted to follow up to the last caller.
		You know, it's kind of amazing.
		Qatar gives the president an airplane, and now they're going to be building a military base in our country.
		That frightens me terribly.
		And I didn't know that Trump's daughter and son-in-law were going to be doing all the business dealings over there.
		And it really smells.
		It smells bad for real estate.
		It smells bad for all of it.
		It's like Trump is just in our government to take it, to take what he can from it.
		And it's just so concerning.
		And I wish people would just realize and put some pieces together that this is not feeling very good.
		And that's what I wanted to say today.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Bill is in Lewes, Delaware on our line for Independent.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Bill.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		The thing that strikes me about this is that it's not a Trump plan.
		If he's representing America, then it's an American plan.
		But I'm not seeing an active Congress.
		They keep sitting on their hands saying, well, Donald Trump did this, and, well, we can't stop him.
		And you have the Republicans saying, we're supporting our president.
		He's got the plan.
		These guys are all responsible.
		Every one of these congressmen and senators are responsible for the situation that we have right now.
		The reason we have a $37 trillion debt is because the Congress has failed to match income with expenditures.
		And it's not that we haven't changed the income stream coming in, except going down.
		We keep saying tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts.
		Listen, this is America.
		This is not Illinois.
		This is not the state of Mississippi.
		And the rights of American people should not be different from Mississippi, Texas.
		The basic rights are human rights.
		And I thank you for listening.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Hillgrove is in Johnstown, Pennsylvania on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Hillgrove.
unidentified		Good morning.
		You know, October 7th would have never happened if Netanyahu would have provided security for these people.
		And I hold that on him as far as that goes.
		And, you know, who's going to rebuild Palestine?
		I hope our country doesn't supply money for, you know, we supplied the arms for Israel.
		And I just hope the destruction of Palestine doesn't fall in our economy here.
		And as far as the Nobel Peace Prize, Trump's not going to get a Nobel Peace Prize for supporting a war criminal like Netanyahu.
		That's a joke.
		So I just wanted to make those comments.
		And good morning.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Maria is in Westville, New Jersey on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Maria.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, Kimberly.
		I have about four points, and I'll make them quickly.
		The first point is last night on one of the cable channels, I saw a blurb where Israel was on one side of an index card, and on the other, the United States will be permitted to criticize Israel.
		I want to know who is giving the orders to the United States.
		Also, President Trump went to England for two days, I'm supposing for a secret meeting.
		I'd like to know if Ingman is still involved with the Middle East the way they were when they betrayed the Palestinians when they should have been under protectorate.
		And the other thing I wanted to know is who is looking after the fact that we're going to have Qataris in our country?
		Was that given to propitiate them for Israel attacking them?
		I want to know who is really running our country.
		And the last thing I want to say is that the so-called president of the Ukraine himself stated that he wants to make it a second Israel.
		I want to know, is this just a gangster scheme to have Israeli gangster hegemony in the Middle East?
		I wish Brian Liam could have somebody in to trace the history of how we got involved.
		And I don't regard them as an ally.
		I regard them as a horrible misfortune for the world.
		Thank you, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sue is in Grand Rapids, Michigan on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Sue.
unidentified		Hi.
		This gentleman you just had on there, you know, I don't know.
		You don't give much information about some of your guests.
		But if you look at his wiki Wikipedia entry there, he is a Jewish partisan, and it even states that.
		And so his position should have reflected that extreme bias, even though he is working for this agency.
		Another point, I think a lot of people are really in America.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly, I want to let you finish your point, but just some additional context on our previous guest since you asked.
		He also advised the Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations, as well as lawmakers on both sides of the aisle on these issues and has testified more than 20 times before Congress and foreign legislatures.
		But yes, you can find more information about the Foundation for Defense of Democracies on their websites and as well as their affiliations.
		But go ahead, Sue.
unidentified		Yes, and then, of course, you would want to also recognize that he is right in there against Iran, too.
		So this gentleman looks to me as though he's supporting quite a lot of military activity on our behalf.
		I, for one, in America, I am not Jewish, and I am, if anything, I'm going to support my roots, and they're not Jewish.
		And the idea that they call that whole territory over there, which is Semitic, and the Jews just started naming that as Jewish 200 years ago.
		So, I mean, this is people need to be suspicious of Jewish conspiracy here.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Barry is in Alamogordo, New Mexico on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Barry.
unidentified		Yeah, thank you.
		I'd just like to throw one idea into the mix.
		If we give these people in Gaza a stake in the world, in other words, if these countries are willing to come in and build industry, build towns, give these people a stake in the world, I don't think we're going to have any more problems with terrorists inhabiting those lands.
		The last thing is I am a student of the Bible and history, and this just follows along with a lot of things that has pointed to this direction.
		I believe that the Palestinians have a right to exist, and I think they will earn their own statehood if they cooperate along with the rest of the world.
		Give them a stake in the world, and watch the tide hot raise all ships.
		Thank you, ma'am.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Donald is in Las Cruces, New Mexico on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Donald.
unidentified		Good morning, Kimberly.
		I'd like to just clear up a few matters.
		The previous guest you had on is a neoconservative.
		And the Federation for Defense of Democracy is a right-wing organization.
		It largely supports Israeli interests.
		It does not support, it is not even-handed in its support.
		The next thing I'd like to point out is that Benjamin Netanyahu was okaying payments to Hamas by Donald, are you there?
		Okay, yes.
		Benjamin Netanyahu was okaying payments to Hamas, and he was okaying those payments because what he wanted to do is use Hamas as a foil against the Palestinians.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Where are you finding that, Donald?
unidentified		Pardon me?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Where are you finding that information about Benjamin Netanyahu paying Hamas?
unidentified		He was okaying payments through, I think it was through Qatar.
		If you look it up, it's information that's available on the internet.
		And he was okaying these payments, and he was using them as a foil against the Palestinian Liberation Organization.
		And he thought that as long as he could sort of balance these two out, that he could stay in power.
		And the agreement that was made was that he would protect the Israelis.
		And what happened on October 7th?
		Instead of protecting the Israelis, what he was doing is he was promoting.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Donald, can I just read a bit of an article from the Times of Israel that I think reflects what you're talking about, just in case folks are not familiar?
		This is a story in the Times of Israel from March of this year.
		Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was warned at least twice before the Hamas onslaught of October 7th, 2023, that the terror group's military chief, Mohammad Daif, was appropriating funds provided by Qatar to Gaza with the Premier's approval, Hebrew media reported Tuesday.
		According to near-identical reports by Channel 12 and the Khan Republic broadcaster, Netanyahu was warned in 2019 by then Shinbeit Chief Nadav Argoman and again in 2020 by the IDF's Military Intelligence Directorate.
		Channel 12 cited three security sources as confirming both warnings' existence.
		Netanyahu's office, where top staffers are under investigation for alleged ties to Qatar, denied the reports.
		I'm guessing this is what you're referencing, Donald?
unidentified		Yes, it is.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay, please go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
		So he is part and parcel of what happened on October 7th.
		And instead of addressing the needs of the Israelis, what he was doing was promoting taking over the West Bank.
		So your previous guest left out this important factor.
		And now Netanyahu got caught.
		And once this ceasefire is done, what's going to happen is that Netanyahu will be maybe voted out of office, which is very hopeful for me.
		So thank you very much, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Betty is in Washington, D.C. on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Betty.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I just want to make a couple of comments.
		One, AI, the AI business, I think that needs to be regulated.
		I think that AI is going to get worse.
		I think it's a bad deal.
		And I think the whole internet actually needs to be regulated.
		Something needs to stop it because right now, people are all over the place.
		They are so confused.
		It's like TV says one thing.
		AI do one thing.
		They use other people's faces and their voices, and they say things that's true, and sometimes it's not true.
		And people are totally confused.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Betty, this is an important issue, but our topics right now are the Gaza peace plan as well as the government shutdown.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Did you have thoughts on either of those?
unidentified		Yes, and that's why I said two things.
		I just threw that in there.
		But for the shutdown, I think that I was a government worker for 42 years, and I supported the military.
		And I think that they need to come to an agreement.
		I don't think it's fair that the American citizens, the federal employees, are being used.
		They're being used because of this power struggle, because they want Obamacare to go, because they have nothing to do with anything.
		It's about the people that are sitting up there, the power struggle, the people who want what they want.
		I even heard Donald Trump say out of his own mouth that he will keep the government shut down until they get what they want.
		And I don't think that's fair.
		I don't think that's fair for them to use the government or the people, the American citizens, in that way, because American citizens are totally clueless and did absolutely nothing.
		This is something that should be handled within Congress.
		And they need to have a third party whenever like a tiebreaker, when there are two different situations going on and they can't come to no agreement, there needs to be a third group or another party or something, Congress or somebody to come in and call them all to the table and make them do a decision or do something.
		But right now, we're going to keep bouncing back and forth until somebody be big enough to say, hey, we got to stop this.
		We're hurting the American people because they're getting paid.
		They got money.
		And even if they're stopped, they're still getting paid.
		They got money because they make triple time the amount of money that the regular citizens make.
		And so they're okay.
		They got the top-notch insurance.
		They can afford to pay for insurance.
		But the American federal government worker, they work and they get paid and they live off paycheck to paycheck, the majority of them.
		And so for them to be in the middle of this, it's not fair to the American citizens.
		And I thought that the government, the president, I thought they were supposed to be for the people.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I do want to give an update that just crossed from Sky News: that Israeli Prime Minister spokesperson Shosh Bedrossian says that the hostages will be released on early Monday morning.
		This is the latest news that we're seeing about the situation in Gaza, that the hostages will then be driven to forces inside Israeli-controlled parts of Gaza, she says, before they are transferred to southern Israel.
		So it looks like we can expect some of those hostages to be released on Monday.
		Chris is in Pikesville, Maryland, on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Chris.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you doing today?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good, thank you.
unidentified		My first statement is we shouldn't have, I don't believe we should have a shutdown if this current administration are alleging that they have received, I don't know, $1,700, $17 trillion, and the current administration is building a ballroom.
		They removed the rose garden.
		And this is really crazy, accepting this expensive jet from Qatar, and then you're going to build a place, and I forgot the location.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		A military base in Idaho.
unidentified		Yes.
		I mean, if you got enough money for all these things, which is to me, it's pork, instead of looking out for the American people.
		I don't consider myself Democrat, independent, or any, I'm a human being, and I was born and raised in America.
		And this supposed to be make America great again.
		It's really not, it's making it worse.
		We need to come together as a people.
		And I don't understand why Congress and all the other establishments are afraid to speak up.
		But I really do know why, because it's never been about the people.
		It's about the rich getting rich and the poor getting poor.
		And now it's about the poor getting sick and the rich staying healthy.
		And I just want to thank you for what you're doing.
		And we all appreciate you being just allowing all ideologies to speak.
		And it's good for America to keep this organization open.
		And I thank you very much.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Jaden is in Sherwood, Arkansas, on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Sherwood.
unidentified		Good morning, ma'am.
		How's it going today?
		Good.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		So I just want to talk about the Gaza peace plan and bring up my thoughts about it.
		I hope we do all remember the previous peace plan and how just before and just after that peace plan, Israel decided to launch a large-scale attack.
		And I also wanted to bring up the fact that prior to 1948 and after 1948, there's an event called the Nakba, where over 500 villages were burnt to the ground.
		12 cities were completely demolished.
		750,000 Palestinians were just easily deported from their territory and sent to Jordan, Egypt, elsewhere, and even into the Gaza Strip where they were presiding until today.
		And now thousands are dead.
		I've seen pictures of babies with their heads demolished, with their eyeballs popping out of their head.
		And the majority of these killings are babies.
		Even in the second anifata, five out of every thousand deaths were babies.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		That is actually all of the time that we have on that somber note for the show today.
		But thank you to everyone who called in to share your perspectives and your comments and your ideas on Washington Journal.
		We are going to be back with another edition of the show starting at 7 a.m. Eastern tomorrow.
		We hope you'll join us then.
		Thanks, and have a great day.
unidentified		C-SPAN's Washington Journal, our live forum inviting you to discuss the latest issues in government, politics, and public policy.
		From Washington and across the country.
		Coming up Monday morning, we'll look at the latest public opinion polls on the government shutdown and the performance of President Trump and congressional leaders with Cliff Young of Ipsos.
		Then Politico's Diana Narosi goes over the latest on the shutdown and President Trump's Mideast peace efforts.
		And Ryan Szymansky of the Battleship New Jersey Museum and Memorial discusses the 250th anniversary of the Navy.
		C-SPAN's Washington Journal.
		Join in the conversation live at 7 Eastern Monday morning on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app, or online at c-SPAN.org.
		Our coverage of the U.S. Navy's 250th anniversary continues this evening with a Victory at Sea concert with actor and retired U.S. Marine Rob Riggle as master of ceremonies.
		Performers include Patty LaBelle and the elite Marine Corps Band, among others.
		Watch live coverage from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania at 7:30 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile app, or online at c-SPAN.org.
		Congress returns in the week ahead with the federal government still shut down.
		House Republican leaders have canceled votes for a fourth week.
		Only brief sessions will be held beginning on Tuesday, with most members back in their districts unless instructed to return within 48 hours' notice.
		The Senate gavels in on Tuesday at 3 p.m. Eastern.
		Lawmakers will be voting for the eighth time to advance short-term government funding bills by Republicans and Democrats to reopen the government.
		Watch live coverage of the House on C-SPAN, see the Senate on C-SPAN 2.
		And of course, all of our congressional coverage is available on our free video app, C-SPAN Now, and our website, c-SPAN.org.
		Friday, on C-SPAN's Ceasefire, Maryland Democratic Governor Wes Moore and Oklahoma Republican Governor Kevin Stitt sit down together with host Dasha Burns.
		Ceasefire, Friday at 7 p.m. Eastern in Pacific, only on C-SPAN.
		C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
		We're funded by these television companies and more, including WOW.
		The world has changed.
		Today, the fast, reliable internet connection is something no one can live without.
		So WOW is there for our customers with speed, reliability, value, and choice.
		Now more than ever, it all starts with great internet.
		Wow.
		WOW supports C-SPAN as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy.
		Attorney General Pam Bondi testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee and was asked about the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey by the Justice Department.
		She also talks about whether it's legal to deploy the National Guard to U.S. cities and the Epstein files, and expresses her concerns about law enforcement not being paid due to the federal government shutdown.
		Do you affirm the testimony you're about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
		So, help you, God.
		Please be seated and give us your opening statement.

▲