| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
|
unidentified
|
Experience. | |
| You will seek knowledge and understanding and share it with the world. | ||
| And when you go, you will go together and we will all be with you. | ||
| Astronaut candidate group 24, we are proud of you and your country is proud of you. | ||
| Your next giant leaps start here. | ||
| Thank you, and Godspeed. | ||
| And coming up, former Vice President Kamala Harris is being honored at the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation's annual Phoenix Awards Dinner in Washington, D.C. | ||
| The event recognizes individuals who have made significant contributions to society while uplifting and empowering the global black community. | ||
| Maryland Democratic Governor Wes Moore will also be attending as a featured speaker. | ||
| We'll have live coverage of the awards dinner when it gets underway here on C-SPAN. | ||
| Joining us now to discuss President Trump's shift on Ukraine policy is Christine Berzina. | ||
| She is a geostrategist, North American manager, managing director at the German Marshall Fund. | ||
| Christine, thank you so much for joining us again on the program. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Great to be here. | |
| We'll start with having you talk about the German Marshall Fund. | ||
| Explain to our audience the mission and who you work with. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So the German Marshall Fund of the United States, we have a very long name, we are a nonpartisan organization here in Washington, D.C., but also in various offices across Europe. | |
| And we streak to facilitate transatlantic cooperation. | ||
| We have come from a tradition of the Marshall Plan. | ||
| In the 70s, the organization was founded in a way as a living memorial to the Marshall Plan, and we still work in the transatlantic space today. | ||
| The transatlantic space also includes NATO, and it was NATO and the UN, and it was President Trump who attended the UN General Assembly taking place this week in New York after he had a meeting with Ukraine President Zelensky. | ||
| He posted a statement on Truth Social and for those who may not have seen it, I want to read it and then we'll get your reaction to it. | ||
| This is the post. | ||
| It says, after getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine-Russia military and economic situation and after seeing the economic trouble it is causing Russia, I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, in a position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form with time, patience, and financial support of Europe and in particular NATO. | ||
| The original borders from where this war started is very much an option. | ||
| Why not? | ||
| Russia has been fighting aimlessly for three and a half years, a war that should have taken real, that should have taken real military power less than a week to win. | ||
| This is not distinguishing Russia. | ||
| Russia, in fact, it is very much making them look like a, quote, paper tiger. | ||
| When the people living in Moscow and all of the great cities, towns, and districts all throughout Russia find out what has really been going on with this war, the fact that it's almost impossible for them to get gasoline through very long lines that are formed, and all of the other things that are taking place in their war economy, where most of their money is being spent on fighting Ukraine, which has great spirit and is only getting better. | ||
| Ukraine would be able to take back their country in its original form. | ||
| And who knows, maybe go even further than that. | ||
| Putin and Russia are in big economic trouble. | ||
| And this is the time for Ukraine to act. | ||
| In any event, I wish both countries well. | ||
| We will continue to supply weapons to NATO for NATO to do what they want with them. | ||
| Good luck to all. | ||
| Donald J. Trump, President of the United States. | ||
| Your reaction to that post. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, this was a very large piece of news in the transatlantic security space. | |
| Since the beginning of the Trump administration, and this time around, there's this huge question. | ||
| Well, what does Trump really think about who's responsible for the war in Ukraine? | ||
| How much will the U.S. try to help Ukraine win? | ||
| Who's going to pay for it? | ||
| And now in the second half of this year, so many of those pieces have fallen into place. | ||
| Right there in that post, there is a allusion to the fact that it isn't the U.S. giving free weapons to Ukraine anymore. | ||
| Now the Europeans, the NATO allies, are purchasing those weapons from the United States and offering them to Ukraine. | ||
| But it isn't an example of Trump sidling up to Putin. | ||
| Instead, it's showing in very strong language that Trump is on the Ukrainian side at the moment and he doesn't think that Russia has good cards here. | ||
| And I think that's such a difference from where Trump was when he told Zelensky he didn't have the cards just in the winter. | ||
| So this is a really an incredible example of an evolution of President Trump's thinking on this war. | ||
| The question that we don't know though is, well, what comes next? | ||
| And you mentioned President Trump making those remarks, the no cards remarks. | ||
| That was in February, that heated office Oval Office exchange that people may remember February to now. | ||
| What's changed? | ||
| Why this potential flip in policy? | ||
|
unidentified
|
A lot of things have happened since February on policy. | |
| One thing is specifically the how question for U.S. engagement in the transatlantic security space, the U.S. help to Ukraine. | ||
| Again, is this a gift? | ||
| Is this charity that the U.S. gives? | ||
| Or is this a part of an also economically advantageous package for the United States? | ||
| And that has been taken care of throughout the summer and the creation of this approach for the Europeans to be purchasing these weapons from the United States. | ||
| That's one. | ||
| And then Russia has not been able to take significantly more land in this year. | ||
| Russia also is suffering economically. | ||
| And you see very long lines across Russia in order to get gasoline. | ||
| The Ukrainians using their own drones have hit about half of the refineries that exist in Russia. | ||
| And so the availability of fuel is really significantly limited. | ||
| And this is something that Ukraine is doing on their own, what things they build in order to do this. | ||
| So this is showing Ukraine coming up with a way to have a very significant impact without the support of its allies and its partners. | ||
| And then we also look at the bigger picture of Russia has been going full steam ahead on a war in which they haven't made significant territorial gains in a few years. | ||
| And in this war, they are fueling their entire economy around the war. | ||
| And yet now they need to borrow. | ||
| They're increasing taxes. | ||
| So the general tax for things is going to go up. | ||
| They're going to have to borrow more. | ||
| And they don't have the oil to sell. | ||
| And so when you look forward, how much longer can Russia go? | ||
| Could go for a while, but it's going to hurt ever more. | ||
| So is this a smart thing for Russia to be doing? | ||
| They're not going to get more of what they want, and it's going to hurt the country a lot. | ||
| And that is what Trump is alluding to here. | ||
| And that is what is different right now in September versus where we were in February. | ||
| You mentioned that Russia hasn't been able to make much headway recently. | ||
| We're now three and a half years into this war. | ||
| Talk more about the current state of the war, where the two sides currently stand, what they each have going for them and against them. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So when you look at the front lines, they haven't changed much. | |
| Russia has been taking a few more miles here or there all along this very long front line, but they haven't made any major breakthroughs. | ||
| They have not taken any major cities. | ||
| It's really a slow grind. | ||
| If you look historically, it's more of a World War I situation for those who are more history buffs who are watching today. | ||
| It's just a tiny bit, a tiny bit, a tiny bit more. | ||
| Ukraine pushes back. | ||
| Russia has a lot more people that it is throwing at this war effort. | ||
| So Russia is a much bigger country. | ||
| They have a lot more soldiers at its disposal and they are putting them onto those front lines, but they're also suffering tremendous casualties. | ||
| Yes, Russia has more, but Russia is losing more. | ||
| And again, at which point does something along those lines become too much? | ||
| Our guest for the next 35 minutes or so is Christine Berzina. | ||
| She is with the German Marshall Fund, and she is joining us for a discussion on President Trump's shift on Ukraine policy. | ||
| If you have a question or comment for her, you can start calling in now the lines. | ||
| Democrats 202-748-8000. | ||
| Republicans 202-748-8001. | ||
| And Independents 202-748-8002. | ||
| Wanted to ask about the response to President Trump's statement that was made. | ||
| A senior White House official said that the post was maybe a negotiation tactic. | ||
| Could that be effective for Russia? | ||
| And how has Russia responded to those remarks? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Russia has been very insulted by these remarks. | |
| And the way that you look at the language that Trump used, calling Russia a paper tiger, I mean, you saw folks from the Kremlin say, tiger, we're not a tiger, we're a bear. | ||
| Why are you calling us a tiger? | ||
| And then a paper tiger. | ||
| And so there is this notion of having been slighted by President Trump through these remarks. | ||
| And that isn't something that they are very used to. | ||
| Certainly not from Trump. | ||
| About a month ago, we had that big summit between Trump and Putin in Alaska. | ||
| And that was such a celebration. | ||
| It was a feting of the Russian president. | ||
| And now they're a paper tiger. | ||
| So I think that this is a big expression of how unhappy Trump is with Putin right now. | ||
| And Russia is a little bit uncertain, I think, of what to do next. | ||
| They've been trying to actually dial up some of their muscularity by doing more air funny business in Europe, drones into Poland, violating airspace and NATO. | ||
| But that's not going to change the reality in Ukraine. | ||
| So it's a question, how much is Russia actually able to change those realities without doing something dramatic, right? | ||
| Funny business may be the best description of the Russian airspace and using drones that I've heard. | ||
| We have callers waiting to talk with you. | ||
| We'll start with Lee, who's calling from Indiana on the line for Democrats. | ||
| Good morning, Lee. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes, good morning to you, too. | |
| This deal about he's supposed to be on Ukraine's side now. | ||
| I mean, he wants to help Ukraine in all this. | ||
| Well, he's so vindictive. | ||
| How can I believe that he's for Ukraine when he's after all his enemies here in the United States? | ||
| When he was on TV, the Ukraine guy, him and J.D. Vince made fun of him, talked about his clothes and everything, and the man's country was being torn apart. | ||
| And all he believed in, democracy. | ||
| You really want me to believe now that Trump's on Ukraine's side when he's after when Trump's after all his enemies here in the United States? | ||
| Any response for Lee? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, thank you for the question. | |
| I think that it's a full-time job for many people to try to understand where Trump stands on a lot of these global issues. | ||
| And I think that you can't look at all elements of this administration's policy as being part of one coherent whole. | ||
| His policy towards Ukraine has really been one of zigzagging. | ||
| He has been incredibly tough on Ukraine and then even insulting to Zelensky in the Oval Office. | ||
| And now instead, he has shifted back and been very pro-Ukrainian. | ||
| You can see where things are in any particular moment, but that doesn't guarantee that in one week's time or in one month's time, it's going to be exactly the same. | ||
| Although in recent months, the Ukrainians have been very successful at making sure that their view on the situation has a good perception also in the White House. | ||
| Something you talked about was the ability for Russia to continue financing a war now three and a half years in. | ||
| Some of the funding for that coming from oil, gas, energy sales. | ||
| That's something that President Trump has talked about this week, not only with the Turkish president, but also at the UN. | ||
| Want to play a clip of his remarks there and get your response? | ||
| China and India are the primary funders of the ongoing war by continuing to purchase Russian oil. | ||
| But inexcusably, even NATO countries have not cut off much Russian energy and Russian energy products. | ||
| Which, as you know, I found out about two weeks ago and I wasn't happy. | ||
| Think of it. | ||
| They're funding the war against themselves. | ||
| Who the hell ever heard of that one? | ||
| In the event that Russia is not ready to make a deal to end the war, then the United States is fully prepared to impose a very strong round of powerful tariffs, which would stop the bloodshed, I believe, very quickly. | ||
| But for those tariffs to be effective, European nations, all of you are gathered here right now, would have to join us in adopting the exact same measures. | ||
| I mean, you're much closer to this. | ||
| Have an ocean in between. | ||
| You're right there. | ||
| And Europe has to step it up. | ||
| They can't be doing what they're doing. | ||
| They're buying oil and gas from Russia while they're fighting Russia. | ||
| It's embarrassing to them. | ||
| And it was very embarrassing to them when I found out about it. | ||
| I can tell you that. | ||
| But they have to immediately cease all energy purchases from Russia. | ||
| Otherwise, we're all wasting a lot of time. | ||
| President Trump saying that those countries that are buying gas and oil, those NATO countries, are funding the war against themselves. | ||
| Is that accurate? | ||
|
unidentified
|
There are countries in Europe that are still maintaining significant energy ties to Russia. | |
| The European Union, NATO is not a monolith, and there are different countries that set their own policies. | ||
| There are also rules that are EU-wide about what can and cannot be done. | ||
| But for the EU to pass the sanctions, all of the countries have to agree. | ||
| And this has been really tough. | ||
| The vast majority of countries are happy and would like to not have any more energy ties. | ||
| But then there are a few friends of Russia in the European bloc. | ||
| And if you look at Hungary and Slovakia, for example, these are countries that still have a supply of fairly affordable Russian energy resources. | ||
| And they're not going to be very inclined to give that up. | ||
| And in many ways, President Trump is right that this doesn't really make sense. | ||
| How can it be that the NATO countries are spending so much money to help Ukraine, and yet some of them are still helping Russia make this war effort possible financially? | ||
| But what is the pressure that is needed to make sure that Hungary and Slovakia are able to say, you know, we're going to step back from it right now because the Europeans by themselves haven't been able to get their neighbors to do this since the beginning of the war. | ||
| John is waiting on the line. | ||
| He's calling from Florida on the line for independence. | ||
| Good morning, John. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good morning, ladies. | |
| As far as buying oil from Russia, we know India is a big buyer as well as China. | ||
| But I'd like to push back on that. | ||
| It's just those two little European countries, Hungary and Slovakia, that are buying oil from Russia. | ||
| They might be doing it out in the open, but we all know that the rest of the European countries are buying oil from India, who also buys oil from Russia and then sells it to the Europeans at a higher rate because they get it cheaper from Russia. | ||
| So we know a lot of European countries with their green energy that's not going so well are buying tons of oil from India, which is fueling the war effort for Russia. | ||
| Also, I'd like to talk about the Eastern Front. | ||
| Russia controls pretty much all of the Eastern Front at this point, and I don't see how that land is ever going to be going back into Ukrainian hands. | ||
| It seems that this war is almost at a stalemate, although Russia is advancing every day little by little. | ||
| And I don't see how Ukraine's ever going to be able to take that land back without some kind of superior air power, which they do not have. | ||
| If you can answer me on those two points, I'd appreciate it. | ||
| Thank you so much for those questions. | ||
| So you are absolutely right that it isn't simply the direct sales that are a problem. | ||
| There are many sales that are a problem. | ||
| And having the strict enforcement of any sanctions regime and trying to find and eliminate the loopholes is incredibly important. | ||
| You can even look at the way that washing machines or other machinery is going into Central Asia and then winding up re-exported to Russia because chips are very important also for Russia. | ||
| So there are various mechanisms, both that money can get into Russia and that the kind of hard tools they need are also getting into Russia. | ||
| And this is something where the Europeans should be tightening down and saying, look, if we're serious, we're going to have to make sure to cut off and turn off these faucets of resources that are going into Russia. | ||
| And there, again, this pressure is good. | ||
| There's a lot of hard feelings across Europe from a lot of Trump's rhetoric. | ||
| At the same time, that a lot of the things that Trump points out are actually very necessary. | ||
| And on the Eastern Flank question, how do you get it back? | ||
| So this is, I think, that the question of what is negotiation? | ||
| How does Ukraine actually get back that territory? | ||
| We also have to understand how much mining there has been, as in landmines put down where these front lines are. | ||
| It would be a tremendous task for Ukraine to get this land back. | ||
| Probably some kind of massive weakness or event in Russia would have to open the doors for Ukraine to regain this territory. | ||
| I mean, there have been various cataclysmic moments in Russian history, but at the moment it does not appear that Ukraine will be able to. | ||
| But for Trump to even open the door to that and to say, we're not necessarily going to make the line we're at today permanent, that already is a massive shift in policy. | ||
| And John, to our caller, Christine had mentioned that there were a handful of European countries that are buying gas and energy from Russia. | ||
| This is from Fox News. | ||
| It says Hungary, Slovakia, France, Belgium, and Spain remain Europe's top importers of Russian energy. | ||
| Notes that while Hungary and Slovakia continue to purchase Russian oil, France is the second largest European purchaser of Russian energy and continues to import liquefied natural gas. | ||
| And wanted to go back to what you were saying. | ||
| This is a related, this is a question coming in by a text. | ||
| It says to your guest, what targets can Ukraine go after in Russia to get Putin to see that this war may end up causing Russia more damage than good should Ukraine hit targets in Russia hazards? | ||
| That is from Dean in Kentucky. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I think this is a really good question because it comes at the strategy of what Ukraine should be doing next. | |
| When we look at this question of the high energy prices in Russia for Russians, then this is a result of the significant attacks that Ukraine has made against refineries. | ||
| Ukraine is continuing in this strategy. | ||
| But Zelensky in the last week, or so it is reported, has asked President Trump for Tomahawk missiles. | ||
| So these are far longer range missiles that the United States has. | ||
| Even having them in Ukrainian hands would already change the calculus for Russia. | ||
| Because at the moment, the big military facilities, the bases that Russia has that are more inland, are really well protected from any kind of Ukrainian attack. | ||
| You've had swarms of drones or other novel technologies that the Ukrainians have been able to use. | ||
| But at the same time, they also are not able to use the kind of big missiles that any of the big countries would be using. | ||
| If the U.S. were to even give those to Ukraine, the threat of being able to attack a major Russian base would mean that perhaps the calculus would be different on the Russian side. | ||
| Let's hear from Oliver, who's calling from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the line for Republicans. | ||
| Hi, Oliver. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good morning, ladies. | |
| If the Russian military is so bogged down in Ukraine, why are they messing with Finland and Poland? | ||
| If they can't handle Ukraine, how are they going to handle more than one country? | ||
| All right, thank you. | ||
| I think this is that, so we have a question here about why Russia can't just take care of the one thing they're trying to take care of, and instead why Russia is looking at other spaces. | ||
| And that is because Russia doesn't want to be considered just a regional power and wants wherever possible to remind NATO countries and remind the United States that it is a global power. | ||
| And in Alaska, Trump called Russia number two when it comes to nuclear powers. | ||
| And so it does not want to be seen as this, quote, paper tiger, as Trump called Russia. | ||
| And instead, Russia is trying to get Trump and the world to see Russia as still the number two, not far behind the United States power. | ||
| And if it can flex, meaning provide threatening situations in Europe, all across the border, but honestly, anywhere globally, this allows Russia to feel itself stronger. | ||
| So when it gets really close to Alaskan airspace, when it causes trouble in Africa, when it seeks to interfere in affairs in Libya, it had a massive base enroll in Syria. | ||
| It is everywhere in the world because it wants to show everyone else that it can be everywhere in the world. | ||
| It wants to be able to stir the pot, effectively, and that's what it gives it a sense of power. | ||
| Victory is calling from Madison, Wisconsin, on the line for independence. | ||
| Good morning, Victory. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He said it right next to it. | |
| Victory, are you there? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thanks. | |
| I got to mute the TV now. | ||
| Oh, ready. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Okay, yeah, the point is that as a substance of the United States, we the people are not by the people. | ||
| That's the Dr. Trump, Sir Trump, whatever. | ||
| He is mirroring us. | ||
| We are the problem. | ||
| That is why democracy should have never been, because it says in the Bible, foundation of the country, currently a company, that we should not have democracy. | ||
| It leads to where we are. | ||
| Now, relative to what Ukraine is doing, we're doing. | ||
| It's hypocrisy all across the world. | ||
| This is not where we should be. | ||
| That's why I'm independent, because I did too much time studying the Republic to see this going on. | ||
| Sir Trump needs to be consistent for the people, not for revenge. | ||
| I'll leave it there. | ||
| Well, I think that America's political leaders, as well as Ukraine's political leaders, are very much interested in helping their people. | ||
| In each country, there are many perspectives about what that would mean. | ||
| But that link between voters and the leaders, the sense of responsibility, the sense of protecting interests is something that is quite common. | ||
| And I think that part of what we see in the United States and in Ukraine, but we don't see in a country like Russia, is this question of, well, how important is human life? | ||
| If you look at President Zelensky and how concerned he is about his people and about the losses he has on the front lines, in many ways, this is similar to the way that Donald Trump is also incredibly concerned about the use of the American military and the value of the American service members' lives. | ||
| This is that link. | ||
| And this is a community of countries, of leaders, that understands that value of their people. | ||
| And yet, on the other side, you have leaders who are interested actually in using people for military benefit in the way that we would use dollars. | ||
| And that is a big difference and a problem. | ||
| President Trump was asked about potential U.S. involvement this week while he was in New York. | ||
| Want to play the clip and then we'll talk about it on the other side. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mr. President, do you think that NATO countries should shoot down Russian aircraft if they enter their airspace? | |
| Yes, I do. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Would you back up NATO allies? | |
| You said that you thought that they should shoot down the Russian aircraft. | ||
| Would you back them up? | ||
| Would the United States help them out in some way? | ||
| Depends on the circumstance, but we're very strong toward NATO. | ||
| What did you hear there from President Trump and what could U.S. involvement look like? | ||
| What could backing up NATO look like? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So thus far, we've had the situation where Russia has been sending drones or its aircraft, its MiGs, either into NATO airspace or a little too close to NATO airspace. | |
| And we have the situation where we don't understand exactly whose drones caused the paralysis of Scandinavian airports also in this last year. | ||
| So what do you do about it? | ||
| And Trump is saying, yeah, you can shoot them down. | ||
| But here's the tricky piece. | ||
| What happens next? | ||
| And who can shoot them down? | ||
| So when we come to Baltic airspace, so the three Baltic countries, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, when they joined NATO, they did not have big air forces. | ||
| And you have a rotational presence of other NATO countries who are up in the air. | ||
| So when the MiGs entered Estonian airspace, it was the Italian plane that was scrambled and was trying to get it out of that airspace. | ||
| So which country is going to be able to do this? | ||
| What are the repercussions? | ||
| And does the U.S. have the Europeans back when that happens? | ||
| Because what does it mean for Russia to say, we're going to be really strong, in some ways really actually threatening against NATO? | ||
| And then is the response a national response? |