CSPAN - Washington Journal 09/01/2025

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Sept. 1, 2025 07:00-10:01 - CSPAN

03:00:53

Washington Journal 09/01/2025

Participants

Main

david madland

14:05

john mcardle

cspan 34:42

mark mix

19:15

tom lobianco

23:16

Appearances

brian lamb

cspan 01:04

karoline leavitt

admin 00:54

lori chaves-deremer

01:20

Clips

al green

rep/d 00:19

donald j trump

admin 00:24

patty murray

sen/d 00:27

robert gaylon ross

00:25

robert parry

00:13

sean duffy

admin 00:12

willie nelson

00:03

Callers

lexington in north carolina

callers 00:06

robert in tennesee

callers 00:25

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Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Band's Washington Journal will take your calls and comments live.
		Then Mark Micks with the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation and David Madland of the Center for American Progress discuss the U.S. labor movement and workforce issues.
		And 24 Site News Tom Lobianco covers Campaign 2026 and political news of the day.
		WASHINGTON JOURNAL STARTS NOW. GOOD MORNING.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		It's Monday, September 1st, 2025, Labor Day across the country.
		This morning, we'll take a look at union membership in the United States and also preview Congress's return to Washington this week after the August recess.
		But first, a question on working life in today's economy.
		This Labor Day, we want to hear your view on the state of the American worker and whether you feel like you're able to get ahead in your job.
		Phone lines are split this way for you to call in if you're in the Eastern or Central time zones.
		It's 202-748-8000.
		If you're in the Mountain North Pacific time zones, 202-748-8001.
		And a special line for union members this Labor Day, 202748-8002.
		You can also send us a text.
		That number's 202-748-8003.
		If you do, please include your name and where you're from.
		Otherwise, catch up with us on social media.
		On X, it's at C-SPANWJ on Facebook.
		It's facebook.com/slash C-SPAN.
		And a very good Monday morning to you this Labor Day.
		You can go ahead and start calling in now, heading in to the Labor Day holiday.
		It was White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt last week who noted the administration's trade policies and economic policies, saying they have benefited the American workers these past eight months.
karoline leavitt ▲ ● ▼		And as we commemorate Labor Day this year, we finally have a president who fights and delivers for the American worker every single day.
		President Trump believes that American workers are the heart and soul of our economy and our national identity, which is why he's championed an agenda that puts them first always.
		For decades, the hardworking men and women of our country who built the greatest nation in world history were sold out by selfish, greedy, short-sighted globalists who put our country on a path to economic and cultural ruin.
		They hollowed out our factories and towns and betrayed the American working class by shipping jobs overseas and importing millions of low-wage migrants to replace American workers.
		Under President Trump, this national disgrace is over.
		American workers are once again being put at the center of national trade policy and the dignity of American labor is being defended.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Carolyn Levitt on Thursday heading into the Labor Day holiday, plenty of Labor Day messages as well from union officials around the country, including AFL-CIO President Liz Schuler in her State of the Unions address.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		She talked about the American worker today in 2025 and how the Trump administration has impacted American workers.
unidentified		If you wake up every morning thinking about how to make it in this economy, how to find a good job, build a career, pay the bills, put food on the table for your family, and live and retire with dignity, we're fighting for you every day.
		This time each year, we come together to remind this country, Labor Day is our day.
		It belongs to all working people.
		It's not about back-to-school specials and mattress sales.
		It's about the people who will show up to work on Monday, long before the doors open, cleaning the floors and stocking the shelves.
		The teachers who will use their day off to put together lesson plans for the new school year.
		The nurses and first responders and restaurant servers and flight attendants and fast food workers who won't get a holiday come Monday morning, who will put on their uniforms for just another day on the job because they know their communities and their families need them.
		Labor Day is about what those workers and what all workers deserve.
		Now, I travel the country a lot, and everywhere I go, people ask me, How are workers feeling out there?
		Where do we stand on things?
		So, two years ago, we started a new tradition to come together every year for a real and honest talk about the state of our unions.
		This is a moment unlike those past two years because this is a moment unlike any in the history of our labor movement and our country.
		I'm here at the AFL-CIO headquarters in Washington, D.C., what we proudly call the House of Labor, two blocks from the White House.
		And outside this building, there are 2,000 federal troops on the ground blocking peaceful streets, harassing working people, costing American workers as taxpayers tens of millions of dollars.
		Money that could be expanding health care, funding our schools, or housing those on our streets.
		And it's just one more example of what I've heard from workers again and again these past six months.
		Where is the common sense?
		Where are the lower costs?
		My groceries, my rent, my medicine.
		Why are my job, my family, my future, my community, the services I count on, suddenly being threatened and ripped away?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		AFL CIO President Liz Schuller, her State of the Unions address, President Trump putting out a Labor Day message this Labor Day weekend via his Truth Social platform, Enjoy Your Labor Day weekend.
		He wrote a big year ahead for the USA, maybe the best ever if the tariffs are finally approved by the courts, signed President Donald J. Trump.
		Asking you this morning about the state of the American worker and whether you're able to get ahead in your job.
		Phone lines are split regionally.
		Eastern and Central time zones, it's 202-748-8000 for you to call.
		Mountain and Pacific time zones, 202-748-8001.
		Union members, 202-748-8002.
		We want to hear about your line of work and the state of the American worker today.
		This is Trevor out of Reno, Nevada.
		Good morning.
		What line of work are you in?
unidentified		I was a Teamster, third generation, and I just retired about two months ago.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's your thoughts on the state of the American worker today?
unidentified		As long as you have a job, like in the union, like here, it's a right-to-work state, so it's kind of hard, you know, to keep your things going.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Trevor, what are your thoughts on the state of union membership?
		A union membership down something like 2 million members since the year 2000.
		I think it's closer to 4 million since 1980.
unidentified		Well, here the economy's booming, so I think the membership is growing, but I'm not sure about the state of the rest of the United States.
unidentified		But as far as Reno goes, I think it's the best that the union has at the time.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You feel comfortable in your retirement?
unidentified		Oh, very well.
		You know, I could have got a little more.
		Everybody can.
		But, you know, that's the way it is.
		It's just you got to work pretty hard to get what you want in the end goal.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Did you get a union pension?
unidentified		Yes, it's not much because I did 11 years and then I did another 10 at another company.
unidentified		So I was a truck driver and then I had to finish off as a transit driver.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's the difference between a truck driver and a transit driver?
unidentified		Oh, it's like night and day.
		A transit driver is there's a target on your back from the companies.
		And you still with us, Trevor?
		Yeah, I'm still here.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What does a truck driver do versus a transit driver, Trevor?
unidentified		Well, I was a beer driver, and I did deliveries locally, and then I was a transit driver, and I drove locally downtown.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Trevor, thanks for the call from Reno, Nevada, asking you whether you're able to get ahead in your job in the state of the American worker.
		That's our question this Labor Day.
		This is Michael out of Virginia.
		Michael, go ahead.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		Yeah, I'm doing fine.
		I work as a data center technician.
		You know, I'm making really good money, getting plenty of overtime, traveling.
		I was just in Atlanta for two weeks.
		That area is booming.
		Just a lot of growth around Atlanta.
		The big companies are investing there.
		You know, and I'm getting a lot out of my pay.
		Costs are down.
		I remember during Biden, 20% inflation, very expensive gasoline.
		Now, gasoline is affordable.
		Food is affordable.
		And have confused all these people that talked about transient inflation during Biden's time when, in fact, the opposite is true, are now all of a sudden saying that there's massive inflation.
		Costs are not higher.
		If anything, cost for what I spend my money on is lower.
		I'm making enough money now where I'm paying off debts, student debts, and others.
		I'm saving more from my retirement, and I'm driving into work.
		Now I'm happy to go to work.
		There's so much going on.
		I'm training new employees and assuming more of a leadership role at work.
		So, you know, I'm really at one of the high points of my career.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Michael, you think it's been a good eight months for American workers?
unidentified		Oh, yes, sir.
		Yes, sir.
		In my line of work, yes.
		Absolutely.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Michael in Virginia.
		Here's a few of your comments via social media.
		Gary writes in no, not able to get ahead in his job.
		Bidenflation is still eating at our wallets and will never go away.
		This is Steve saying, Labor Day reminds me of how laborers have been used and abused by union leaders and our government for personal and political gain, how consumers have been deceived by our government and the media into believing buying cheap foreign manufactured products doesn't harm our industries and our economy.
		How American farmers have been betrayed and kept poor by a globalist agenda.
		A consumption economy is unsustainable over time.
		Reliance on foreign products and services continues to fuel our downward spiral into this country's demise.
		It's not nationalism to protect our labors.
		It's loyalty and patriotism.
		It's national defense and survival.
		One world order is the wrong side of the battle, says Steve on Facebook.
		This is Dave out of Washington.
		Dave, are you able to get ahead in your job today?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Yes.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What line of work are you in, Dave?
unidentified		Am I on?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Right now, I'm a retired union member, and I think unions are the greatest thing that ever can have to this country.
		They gave us the eight-hour a day and the safety standards and did away with child labor.
		And we didn't want to go back to those terrible times.
		They talk about the gilded age, but that wasn't so much, that wasn't so much gilded for the average worker in this country.
		And I believe that this should just keep going, and everybody should be in some kind of a union regardless of what kind of a job you have or whatever you work because they'll protect you and they'll keep your wages coming and your benefits coming and then your health care coming.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Dave, you say everyone should be in a union.
		Same question to you as the previous union member who called in.
		Why is union membership dropping?
		Why is it on a downward trend line?
		I think we lost Dave.
		This is Paul, Houston, Texas.
		Paul, go ahead.
unidentified		Yes, thank you for accepting my call.
		Yes, I'm a retired teamster.
		And I was according to that first caller that was saying that prices were down.
		I don't know what store he shop at, but prices are up.
		Everything gas is down 10 cents.
		From I paid $2.39, and under Biden, I paid $2.49.
		And I mean, I think that membership is down because people are brainwashed, you know, and people vote against their own interests.
		And unions is why people have vacation, why people have pension, why people have a 40-day work week.
		I mean, any worker that's against a union is against his own interest.
		You know, and I gotta, I draw a union pension retirement, and with my Social Security, I get more money than I was earning when I was working.
		So I think unions is good.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Paul in Houston, Texas, just to show union membership in the United States.
		And this is both private sector unions and public sector unions.
		It's the blue line on this chart.
		You can see union membership reaching its heights of some close to 35% of the economy back in 1947, 35% of those who work in the United States.
		And then those numbers dropping to just below 10% for the first time in 2024.
		You can see how those numbers have declined over the years.
		This is Joseph in Marietta, Georgia.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Yes, good morning.
		I was just going to say, like, not only cigarettes just today went up to $7 a pack in Georgia, but they were like $5.85 yesterday, and now there's almost $7.
		But as far as like, I don't know, like, I can see the cost of living and like the money that I'm making.
		And like, I'm pretty much going to be living under a bridge in a probably about four years.
		Like, unless there's like a major pay increase, it is hard, hard, hard out here.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What line of work are you in, Joseph?
unidentified		Well, I used to build houses.
		Well, off now, I do like easy catering, and I do like 50 different things, whatever I can to make money.
		And it's just, there's not enough hours in the day, and there's always so many, it's just getting ridiculous.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Joseph in Georgia.
		This is Randy, Hager City, Wisconsin.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, good morning, City Span.
		You know, I'm a UAW retiree, and the union has been very, very good to us retiree.
		But you say the union membership is going down.
willie nelson ▲ ● ▼		I've got a very good idea why it is.
unidentified		The union is for health and safety and to looking out for the union workers.
		But the unions now are getting involved with politics.
		I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican.
		I don't want my money going to either political party.
		I want my union money to stay locally, or if it has to go to other unions to help them in their strikes or whatever, that's fine.
		But stay out of the political business and take care of the union members.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Randy, when you say stay out of the political business, what do you mean?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That unions shouldn't make endorsements in elections to try to say we think, or the leadership at least saying that we think this candidate will be better for what our union is fighting for?
unidentified		Correct.
		Correct.
		We know what our union is fighting for.
		We can take care of it ourselves.
		We don't need any political party telling us what to do and giving them money and having them telling us what to do.
		The unions can take care of themselves.
robert parry ▲ ● ▼		We're strong, and it's going to get the union membership is going to grow now once they get out of the political scene.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Randy, do you think unions do a better job on local issues than national unions?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you see unions as more effective in places like Hager City, Wisconsin, as opposed to the leadership of unions, a lot of them based here in Washington, D.C.?
unidentified		Well, for sure.
		I mean, the local unions around here, they donate to the ball clubs.
		They donate to other little local unions around here that may be on strike.
		And the unions take care of the unions.
		The unions do not have to give money to anything out there on the East Coast.
		That's baloney.
		Our money stays in our area or close.
		And so the unions take, like I said, take care of the unions.
		For instance, when the airport up here was on strike here a while back, they never got any money from their unions.
		Well, the UAW chipped in and gave them a little bonus at Christmastime.
		Now, that's what unions are for.
		Take care of one another.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Randy, thanks for the call from Wisconsin.
		This is RR on X saying, I personally can get ahead in my job, but a lot of people cannot.
		Unions were a good thing for blue-collar workers, but unfortunately, unions are going to become a thing of the past.
		We mentioned union membership.
		Here's some of the numbers in terms of millions of American workers.
		14.3 million Americans were part of a federal or private sector union in 2024.
		That's down from 18 million in 1983.
		You can see, again, that trend over time.
		This is David, St. Paul, Minnesota.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, John.
		Yeah, I was part of UA local 455 pipe fitter steam fitters for a number of years, and those had to be the best working conditions I had and the best pay I had.
		I never had to ask for a raise.
		It was just part of our contract yearly.
		We went up about two to three bucks a year.
		You know, some of that goes towards your benefits, and some of that goes towards your take-home check, you know.
		But I mean, I was making $40 an hour before I had to stop working.
		And that was as a fourth-year apprentice pipe fitter.
		I didn't have to fight for my wage, didn't have to argue with shitty bosses, didn't have to beg for OSHA stuff.
		The union was with me, and I think everyone would enjoy that because no one's like worrying about what everyone else is getting paid.
		You know what you're getting paid starting, at least at a minimum.
		They can always pay you more if they want.
		You know, most people don't want to pay you more.
		But, and whenever you needed a job, you put a call into the hall, and then they found you another one.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, David.
unidentified		You didn't have to go running down.
unidentified		It was so nice.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		As a pipe fitter, so what kind of projects were you working on in St. Paul?
unidentified		I worked out at the Coke refinery.
		I worked on the heating and cooling systems in some schools, a lot of that.
		Worked in our own union hall installing geothermal heating and cooling system.
		Office buildings, heating and cooling.
		And then they also do a lot of like food line stuff.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I think you said you had to stop.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Why'd you have to stop?
unidentified		Military disability stuff just got in the way of work.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And how are you doing now in terms of getting by since that job?
unidentified		Well, there's the VA payments, and pretty concerned about that whole VA situation, honestly.
		The payments are a lot less than I used to make, about 50% less than I used to make a month.
		So it was hard adjusting to that, too.
		But, you know, it's a change.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Why are you concerned about the whole money?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Why are you concerned about the whole VA situation?
unidentified		I just don't think the current administration is going to serve us in a way that's beneficial to us in the long run.
		I feel like they might make some private, public partnership decisions that are going to lower our standard of care rather than just having the VA where it's all government up and down because they're going to figure out a way to make our VA care like health insurance, I'm sure.
		But yeah, no, my VA pension is still good, and I have two of them.
		Like when I reach retirement age, I have a pension growing and I have a defined pension still.
		So like that's also waiting for me.
		I suggest everyone go union.
		It's just a more worker-forward way to survive.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's David in St. Paul, Minnesota.
		Some more numbers on union membership in this country.
		It's 14.3 million Americans overall.
		About 10% of the working population belong to a union, though the numbers by percentage are much higher in the public sector.
		32% of the public sector workers are members of unions.
		That equals about 7 million people.
		And then another 7.2 million people in the private sector members of unions, but that's only about 6% of the private sector.
		This is Thomas in Long Island, New York.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Oh, how do you do?
		I'm pro-union.
		I used to be active in a union, and I was a proactive person.
		I'm currently active in a grassroots organization which gets quality of life in every sector of the United States.
		And when I go to get medical treatment, they should treat the union members good instead of waiting three hours to get served.
		And they're on fixed income.
		They shouldn't charge them high surcharges.
		They should have quality of care for them with a human touch.
		Thank you very much.
		And God bless you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Out of Long Island, this is Robert out of Illinois.
		Good morning.
		You're next.
unidentified		Good morning.
robert gaylon ross ▲ ● ▼		I started out out of high school and took an apprenticeship and became an electrician and then went to school and became an engineer, got promoted up into management and became a supervisor of a large maintenance group for a very large factory and a very large company and project management.
unidentified		And I made it a practice to always hire union laborers for electrical pipe fitting, mill rights, things like that, because they were all well trained.
		They were all disciplined.
		To get through their apprenticeships, they had to show up for their schooling.
		They had to perform properly.
		I knew they were dependable.
		So it made me successful.
		So I always appreciated the unions.
		I don't know much about some of the other unions for day laborers and things, but I do know for the trades that a union worker is somebody that knows what they're doing.
		You don't have to worry about them not doing something right or cutting corners, and they're well supervised.
		So that's my opinion.
		I was surprised at the beginning of this program about how Trump's lady praised how union supporting he is when he has always and still does hire non-union people.
		And he and Elon Musk had such a good time laughing about firing any of the union workers that might want to go on strike or oppose his opinions.
		I'm just shocked that people will believe that line.
		Everything he ever manufactured, he manufactured outside of the United States.
		So anyway, I have a real strong opinion about unions, especially trade unions.
		I think they're the backbone of our country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Robert in Illinois this morning.
		We're talking this Labor Day about the state of the American worker.
		The question, are you able to get ahead in your job?
		And phone line split this way.
		If you're in the Eastern or Central time zones, 202-748-8000.
		If you're in the Mountain or Pacific time zones, 202748-8001.
		And as you've probably heard already, plenty of union members calling in this morning.
		Special line for union members, 202-748-8002.
		President Trump held that cabinet meeting last week.
		I'm sure you saw it on the C-SPAN networks.
		We played it earlier this morning.
		Plenty of topics coming up, including the state of the American worker.
		Labor Secretary Lori Chavez-DeReamer was at the cabinet meeting discussing her department's priorities when it comes to jobs, American jobs, and the American workforce.
		Here's a portion.
lori chaves-deremer ▲ ● ▼		Many things have been mentioned about consumer confidence.
		Unemployment is holding steady, and more than 2 million net jobs for Native born Americans has been key under your leadership.
		84% of the workforce and jobs has been produced by the private sector.
		I think that was the mission of this administration and the Department of Labor.
		And I will continue to say for a little bit longer until I heard you today, the One Big Beautiful bill, because it equals One Big Beautiful workforce.
		And Congress passed this legislation.
		It probably will be the single most important bill that they did sign because it is protecting our American workforce by expanding Pell Grants and child care and reduction in taxes that they can keep more of their hard-earned dollars.
		I am at the Department of Labor announcing $30 million in grants for our skilled workforce that I have an MOU with Secretary McMahon.
		I have an MOU with Administrator Leffler.
		That's important to share the data points on how important this is.
		In June, we awarded nearly $84 million in grants for the capacity of what?
		Registered apprenticeships, an executive order to have 1 million active apprentices across this nation, where we've already registered 185,000 since in the last few months.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The labor secretary there at last week's cabinet meeting.
		By the way, if you didn't get a chance to watch that cabinet meeting and want to do so, you can watch it in its entirety at c-span.org.
		Back to your phone calls asking for your thoughts on the state of the American worker.
		Are you able to get ahead in your job?
		Damon, calling in from Hazelwood, Missouri.
		That line for union members.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Can you hear me?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What line of work are you in, Damon?
unidentified		I am now a retired 30-year social worker.
		So is my wife.
		And it's all a game.
		It's all a game.
		I went to Jeff City.
		I'm sorry.
		Let me, I can't hear you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I'm listening to you, Damon.
		Just go ahead and speak through your phone.
		The TV's behind you a little bit.
unidentified		Headphones.
		When I went to Jeff City to argue for my union, CWA, I loved it.
		I wanted to make a difference.
		And I did.
		And I did three different divisions.
		I didn't make a difference.
		Oh, I'm turning you up.
		I'm sorry.
		I try to turn the TV down.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Damon, what do you think the state of unions are in this country right now?
unidentified		I love it.
		I love it.
		We need it.
		We can't.
		We got to have balance.
		There has to be balance.
		You know, and you can't have the companies and the state.
		We call it the, I call it the state of Missouri, the state of misery.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Damon in Missouri asking for you to call in this morning.
		When you do call in, it's easiest just to turn down your TV and speak through your phone.
		That way we can have a conversation.
		Here's one of the folks who's been watching and joining us via social media via X, saying it's a tale as old as time.
		There's the haves and the haves nots when it comes to whether people can get ahead.
		And I'd like to hear from a recent college graduate about the challenge they're having finding any work at all right now.
		That's just one of the comments this morning.
		You can join along at C-SPANWJ on X. There's plenty of folks who do so on a daily basis.
		This is Aaron out of South Hill, Virginia.
		Good morning, you're next.
		What line of work are you in?
unidentified		I'm retired now, but I was a union worker for 30 years for New Jersey Transit.
		I think unions are outstanding.
		They're trying to fade unions out.
		But job security, pay increases, our unions fought hard for us.
		And it was a great thing to belong to a union because now I'm able to retire with my pension.
		And you still can have a successful life.
		They talk about the American dream.
		Union workers can reach that American dream.
		And safety-wise on these jobs, having OSHA look out for you, having someone to fight for you when something happens, job security, you have the right for arbitration.
		There's so much that the union offer, your benefits, health benefits.
		At 69 years old, my health plan is tremendous.
		I have Blue Cross for Shield, and I'm able to survive.
		I'm able to live after working 30 years of my life on one job.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Aaron, somebody just wrote in on social media asking about recent college graduates.
		Is a job in the New Jersey transit a job that you would recommend for a college graduate today?
		Is it a good career?
unidentified		Yes.
		And a lot of training, a lot of opportunities, and everything.
		Yes.
		I think anybody coming out of a job can get a job in a union job, New Jersey Transit, postal workers.
		You'd be surprised at what the union has to offer.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Aaron out of South Hill, Virginia.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How'd you go from New Jersey to South Hill, Virginia, Aaron?
unidentified		Well, I decided to move afterwards because New Jersey was very expensive, and I just relocated.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Aaron down in South Hill, Virginia.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		This is Brenda, Indiana, Pennsylvania.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		Good morning, John.
		For 32 years, I was a member of the IBEW union here in Indiana County.
		And for 32 years, I had good paid vacation.
		I had paid sick leave.
		If you were required to work holidays, you got overtime pay, and I have a pension.
		So now that I'm retired, I have Social Security and a pension, which gives me a comfortable retirement.
		When people bought into the 401k plans for their retirement, they were putting their retirement years in carious situation.
		Because remember, back in 2008, when the stock market crashed, there's a lot of people that lost their 401k savings.
		It might have been the day after they retired.
		They lost everything.
		So unions were providing a pension, but companies switched to the 401k plan.
		And like I said, that made retirement kind of shaky.
		And the second thing, these right-to-work states that allow people to work in a union company but not join the union, that's a big rip-off, too.
		The employees that don't join the union, do they still get to piggyback off all the benefits that the union workers fought for?
		Or do these people that don't join the union, do they have to negotiate their own employee contract with the company?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What do you think is fair when it comes to that sort of situation, Brenda?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that people should be forced to join a union if they don't want to join a union?
unidentified		No, if they don't want to join the union, that's fine.
		But then don't piggyback and get all the union benefits that the union workers fought for.
		If you don't want to join the union, then you should have to negotiate your own employee contract with the employer.
		And you take whatever the employer wants to give you.
		Don't piggyback and get all the benefits that the union workers fought and paid union dues for.
		You negotiate your own contract.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Brendan, what sort of work did you do for the electrical workers?
unidentified		I worked at a coal-fired power plant, one of the largest coal-fired power plants on the East Coast, actually.
		I worked there for almost 35 years.
		I was in the maintenance department.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What do you think the future is for coal-fired power plants in this country?
unidentified		Well, since natural gas is in such big supply, coal-fired power plants could never compete with natural gas.
		Never.
		Right out of the gate, a gas-fired power plant could make a megawatt for $8, a megawatt.
		On our best day, with everything running top condition, our best day, we could produce a megawatt for $12.
		Coal could never compete with natural gas.
		And I would imagine over the last decade or so, natural gas technology for generating electricity has gotten even more efficient.
		So Homer City shut down, and they're talking about converting it to a gas-fired plant in order to power up electricity for AI computer data storage space.
		But right from the get-go, John, coal could never compete with natural gas.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's your view on renewable energy, on renewable energy generation, whether it's wind or solar?
unidentified		I think that's the way to go.
		Well, we need all of it.
		We need all of it.
		Because oil, coal, natural gas, they're not renewable.
		Once we've used, you know, oil wells are closed down and kept because they're pumped dry.
		That oil well isn't going to fill up again.
		We need all of it, John, because, you know, we're eventually going to, you know, exhaust the carbon, you know, the fuel resources.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Brenda, thanks for the call.
		From Indiana, Pennsylvania, you bring up right to work laws.
		We're actually going to be joined a little later in our program by Mark Mix from the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation.
		If you've watched C-SPAN on a Labor Day in past years, you may have seen him, his focus on labor issues and union issues as well.
		He also has a column in Fox News that's out this morning.
		The headline of that column, celebrate American workers and not union bosses this Labor Day.
		This is the lead as we say goodbye to the summer season by celebrating Labor Day.
		Most Americans are eager to recognize the ingenuity and determination of rank-and-file workers, but not union bosses, he writes, who hijack the holiday every year to argue for more government-granted coercive powers.
		Instead of focusing on the workers they claim to represent, union officials wield political clout to protect and expand their privileged positions.
		And Mark Mix likely going to expand on that when he joins us in the 8 o'clock hour this morning.
		Stick around for that conversation.
		Kurt is in Anaheim, California.
		You're next.
		What line of work are you in, Kurt?
unidentified		What's up, John?
unidentified		How you doing, buddy?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Doing well.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What do you do?
unidentified		Jack of all, man.
		I started off back in the trade when somebody asked me if I wanted to be a maintenance mechanic.
		And I said, well, we're going to go fix equipment.
		So I started off in the die casting industry, moved on to plastic jets and molding and the rotation molding.
		And four good companies that I worked for were all independent owners, good people.
		We had about 400 to 500 employees and through different phases.
		And at least three of those, you know, some employees weren't happy about this and that.
		And then people were outside complaining about this and that and wanting to, we're going to unionize your company.
		And the owner said, no, no, no, we don't need to do that.
		What's your problem?
		What's your grievance?
		Let's work this out.
		And they said, if we can't work this out, I'm going to close this place down.
		And they went away.
		So what I've learned about the most, I love, I think unions are great.
		80% of our economy needs the support of a system to keep the things going.
		But as an independent person that needs to learn, I'm an electrician, plumber, and mechanic.
		You know, I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I focused on just one thing.
		So good.
		I appreciate unions, but I just want to other people know out there.
		You know, if you want to be an independent person and strive for yourself, you can do it.
		You can handle your own health insurance and medical.
		You can do it.
		But God bless everybody else.
		Thank you, John.
		I appreciate your time, man.
		Peace out.
		Happy Labor Day, man.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kurt in California.
		This is Labor Day morning.
		This is Robin in Texas.
		You're next.
		What line of work are you in?
unidentified		Yes, I was a bus driver here in Dallas.
		And our union was amalgamated transit union of the United States and Canada.
		It was local 1338.
		And I noticed one thing that really made me mad sometimes was the fact that the union supported all Democratic candidates.
		When it was election time, they supported Obama.
		They supported Biden.
		And it was just because these people want to do away with their oil and gas, and more riders for the bus.
		It was so frustrating because I knew these candidates weren't the right choice for America.
		And it really is frustrating.
		I couldn't do anything about it.
		I guess the union heads vote for these Democratic officials.
		I didn't get a vote.
		I didn't get no say in it.
		Or if I did, it was void.
		But I just wanted to say that.
		I thank you.
		Bye-bye.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Robin in Texas.
		Yes, sir.
		This is a piece in the New York Times today by Eric Loomis, a historian of labor issues in the United States, writes about politics and labor unions and workers.
		The headline, Trump is wiping out unions and why are they so quiet?
		He asks, Mr. Trump and his administration, he writes, have unilaterally stripped collective bargaining rights from hundreds of thousands of federal workers at the Department of Veterans Affairs alone.
		400,000 workers or 2.8% of America's unionized workers have lost their collective bargaining rights because of an executive order that will eventually affect more than 1 million federal workers.
		Mr. Trump ushered in Labor Day weekend this year by continuing his assault on federal unions, adding the Patent Office and NASA and the National Weather Service to his list of targeted agencies.
		Based on actions Mr. Trump has taken this year, it's unlikely that there will be any unionized federal workers outside of policing agencies by the end of his term in 2029.
		Mr. Loomis predicts.
		He said the labor movement needs to act like its future is under grave threat.
		The lack of labor response to Mr. Trump contrasts significantly with labor's response when Ronald Reagan fired air traffic controllers in 1981.
		Solidarity Day brought upwards of 260,000 union members and allies to Washington in that September of 1981 to call for workers to fight against the Reagan domination of the working class.
		It did not stop the decline of the labor movement, but it did help.
		He writes the Democrats significantly expand their House majority in 1982 in the midterm elections.
		Eric Loomis, a historian of labor history in today's New York Times.
		This is Charles in Texas, a union member.
		Good morning to you.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		A fellow just got through talking, stole my thunder because I was involved in that Reagan when he fired the air traffic controller.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How were you involved, Charles?
unidentified		Well, still working.
		We wound up giving a 10-week vacation, cost of living adjustment, personal leave days, and then in order to keep our job.
		And then three years later, they still shut the plant down.
		Still working.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Charles, what's your view on the state of unions right now or the future of unions as well, this Labor Day?
unidentified		We because of President Trump.
		He's not for no union.
		And then whatever union members vote for him, well, that's going to be on them.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think a lot of union members in your union in Texas vote for him?
unidentified		A lot of them did.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Have you had conversations with them about your feelings on that?
unidentified		Yes, but a lot of them assume the fact that he's going to help.
		He's not.
		He's not for working people.
		And if they're young enough to believe that, well, we're all going to suffer in just a matter of time.
		And for him coming out of there at the end of his term, he's doing too much to the White House in order to a man to say he's coming out.
		He's going to intend to come out because he had all the people that's batting him, election denials.
		And when it comes down to time to try to put him out of there, forget about it.
		Donald Trump will be here from now on out.
		He fought in Putin's playbook.
		Just look to everything he's doing in Project 2025.
		He said he didn't know nothing about.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Charles, do you think he's going to run for a third term?
unidentified		He's not going to run.
		He's not going to come out.
		Last time he tried to steal the election, he said he shouldn't have never come out.
		Now he won fair and square, and he's not coming out.
		Just bargain my word.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Charles in Texas, his predictions for January of 2029.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		This is Albert in California.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		Good morning, John.
		Absolute pleasure talking to you.
		I'm taking it from a different angle.
		I'm retired, but I was one of those guys that walked into your office and repaired your copier.
		I worked for about seven dealerships throughout California.
		Same product, same paperwork, just a different office with a different owner.
		And that makes a really big difference.
		I've seen the difference between how these dealerships treat their employees.
		I'm retired now, but I wind up from an analog to a digital and obviously the networking that took over.
		And it was a pretty good job for me.
		And that's a matter of your skills and also the dealerships, the owners of the companies.
		I've had really good owners, and then I've had really lousy owners.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What makes a good owner?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What makes a lousy owner?
unidentified		I'll give you an example.
		My first dealership was in Menlo Park, Mr. Galley, Mr. Williams.
		The first product, it's Kia Serra was the product, but the first product that came in from Japan was MITA, the first copiers.
		You actually got a car.
		You got great benefits.
		And you didn't have 401ks.
		It was up to you to take care of your experience.
		But I got trained.
		We used to go to a place called the Holodome in Irvine, Texas.
		They would send you there for a week and train you on a product.
		In order to sell a copier, you had to have certification through technicians.
		And I happened to grow as a technician, as a supervisor, as a manager, and obviously running a few locations.
		And that's everywhere from Palo Alto.
		But I was in an exclusive area, Palo Alto, Santa Cruz, San Francisco, Monterey.
		And I moved in some of the locations.
		When I moved to Monterey, they leased me in one of the little bungalows on Cannery Row, Great Company.
		The best company I ever worked for was California Business Machines, Mrs. McNally, and she gave us a 401k plan.
		And that's when I retired.
		That's one of the benefits I had with her.
		But you grew with the company, and I got certified each year.
		And we talk about unions, but I have family in the Bay Area, so Lockheed, HP, I mean, they work for all, even my family.
		We all work for the big companies.
		Some are educated, some are not.
		It's just a matter of working for a small organization.
		It's those dealerships.
		And I've experienced maybe seven dealerships in the 38 years.
		That's what I did my whole life was working on copiers.
		Albert.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		A couple of people have brought up college kids today.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think college kids today, the majority of them will be able to come up with one company, be able to learn and grow with one company and have kind of the experience that you had that you described of growing with one of those companies?
unidentified		It's all dependent on personally with my personal experience.
		I have a niece who went to the University of Phoenix, paid a lot of money.
		Now she's the general manager, and she's been growing with companies.
		But I'm not going to say greed gets in the way, but you have to, some of the dealerships I worked for.
		And don't forget, these are individual people who, like they said, rich people give you jobs.
		And that's what I experienced.
		You know, some of them would pull in in their new car every year, and you didn't get a raise for two years.
		So, yes, younger people can do it because I've experienced it.
		I'm a multi-generation.
		I have a huge family in California.
		So I've seen the differences in growth and the financial advantages to some people.
		When I got out of the Marine Corps in 1978, I enlisted at the end of college, and I called my cousin Mona, Lisa, and I said, hey, let's start junior college.
		We're the same age.
		Last year, she finally finished her master's.
		And I'm 68.
		I'm retired.
		And I go, it was just self-pride.
		And so they can do it, especially here in Silicon Valley.
		It's really tough because I took an oasis of three years.
		And I'm fortunate.
		I'm up in the mountains.
		I own my property.
		And I was just a copier repairman.
		So, you know, Mrs. McNally in California, she used to say that the cream rises to the top.
		So that has a lot to do with it.
		It's your character.
		You know, I was a Marine.
		I'm a Christian.
		And I think bringing those ethics into any workplace benefits you.
		The younger generation, I talk to my nephews, and I always ask, how are you guys doing?
		And, you know, I get a good response to some of them, but I know I see the Nebraska, we're from Nebraska.
		I see the Nebraska ethics.
		So it's not just the dealerships, it's what you apply to the company and what's your value to the company.
		So I've never experienced a layoff.
		I was fortunate.
		I have cousins who are a lot more wealthier than I am.
		But, you know, I took care of what I needed to take care of with myself.
		But one quick thing, John, because I know I'm taking over, is some offices that I went into, I prayed before I went in.
		And some companies, when I walked out, I definitely got on my knees and prayed.
		So it's a matter of a lot of things, John.
		And I appreciate talking to you.
		And sometimes the questions you pose direct to where this show goes.
		And today was an absolutely positive note for America.
		And I just wish everybody the best.
		I've gone through it and I hope they can find that niche in life.
		But it's possible.
		And once again, there were rich people who were dealers who can't be employed all these years.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Albert, thanks for the call from the Golden State sharing your story.
		This is Keith in Portland, Oregon.
		Good morning.
		You're next.
		What line of work are you in?
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Keith.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What line of work are you in?
unidentified		I'm a retired electrician.
		I'm a member of the IBW.
		I have been since 1970.
		I've had health care since 1970.
		I had health care for all my children until they were emancipated.
		I've had that benefit of working with the tools for about 20 years, and I worked in the administration of the union for 25 years.
		I worked in the Northwest with the tools, and I worked on the East Coast.
		Everywhere I worked in this country, my health care and pension benefits came back to my home.
		Everywhere I worked in this country, I was paid the highest wages of my occupation because I was a union member.
		Those union benefits travel with the worker, and that's a huge benefit.
		Workers now, I think, are under the impression that they can do better by themselves.
		There were some callers that talked about the 401k and how that ruse was put on the American people that they could invest better than professional investors.
		I interviewed a young man when I first was working at the union as a business rep, and I was trying to encourage them to become a union member.
		And the first question he asked me was, how much are union dues?
		I said, they're not as much as non-union dues.
		And he said, I don't pay dues.
		What are you talking about?
		I said, yes, you do.
		If you let me know what your wages and benefits are, I'll prove it to you.
		He shared with me his wages and his benefits.
		And I proved to him that he was paying $250 a week back in 1993 for non-union dues.
		That was the difference between his wages and benefit package and the union worker that was doing the same work that he was doing.
		That is the confusion that is held by most non-union workers and too many workers in this country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Keith, why do you think that confusion is there?
		You said people today think they can do better without a union.
		Why is that something that feeling has increased?
unidentified		I think it's because of what is being led by the rich and super rich as employers, making it difficult for individuals to have a union in the workplace.
		I think that's the biggest challenge.
		Those employers make millions and millions of dollars, and yet still, those workers are struggling to make ends meet as prices continue to rise.
		The union contractors that I'm familiar with in my area do very well.
		Most of them are millionaires.
		However, they pay the highest wages and benefits to our workers.
		And that's what is, I think, often being missed, that the non-union employers are just plain greedy, making all their money on the backs of our workers.
		And so that is something that has to be explained to workers when they come up.
		Unfortunately, It's difficult to get that message across to the general population because they're too busy worried about day-to-day issues like the grocery crisis and the rent and those type of things, including gas in your career.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Keith, thanks for the call.
		Union member from Portland, Oregon.
		This is Jenny on X, who writes into this question that we asked: Are you able to get ahead in your job?
		I sacrificed and studied hard in school, became a nurse, didn't get the greatest pay starting out, worked the craziest shifts, days and nights and evenings, 12-hour shifts, sometimes five in a row, while raising a family.
		But after 44 years, it paid off.
		Amen.
		And never in a union, Jenny writes.
		This is Nikki out of Florida.
		Just a few minutes left here in this opening segment.
		Go ahead, Nikki.
		What line of work are you in?
unidentified		Well, I'm an educator, but I was the spouse of a union member, the Electricians Union in New York City.
		And the point I'd like to make that I don't feel has been adequately focused on is when I was a college-age student, I was able to go all the way through a PhD level, all paid for by my husband's union.
		So I think it's very important that people realize not just the benefits to the union worker, but the benefits to the union workers' family as well.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Nikki, thanks for the call.
		This is Rich.
		In Pennsylvania, it's Dairy, Pennsylvania.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Hey, John, how are you doing?
		I'm not a union member, but I have relatives and a nephew that are.
		And currently in Pennsylvania, in the budget fight, Governor Shapiro is trying to fund SEPTA, which is a Southeast Pennsylvania Transit Authority, and the Pittsburgh Regional Transit.
		And these are, I don't care what they get paid, the union members, like the bus drivers, for example.
		But when you're coming back to the taxpaying public and saying we have to provide SEPTA with a $200 million bailout or Pittsburgh Regional Transit needs $130 million just to be solvent every year, but you're paying a bus driver $140,000 a year, that doesn't wash with me.
		And, you know, I think ultimately, hopefully, is that the pay of a Philly bus driver, Rich?
		In Pittsburgh, it was in the paper that it was $137 was the top pay for a bus driver.
		And I'm sure there's overtime hours in there.
		But I mean, that's a lot of largesse going around that seems to be not matched with educational accomplishments.
		And we have nurses.
		I mean, I have a home health nurse that comes to see me twice a week.
		She makes $80,000 a year.
		There's PCP doctors in rural areas that don't make $135,000 a year.
		They're teachers that don't make that.
		And I don't know.
		It just doesn't wash with me.
		And I think this is one area where maybe at some point AI will take over and, well, self-driving buses and things like that.
		And I think that's a good thing.
		But I mean, it's just a waste of money.
		And if SEPTA was solving on their own, that's fine.
		But when you're coming back to us and Governor Shapiro is redirecting money that should have gone for road repair and bridge repair just to keep these two organizations afloat, I think that's wrong.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		An article in the union progress out of Pennsylvania.
		Transit cuts begin in Philadelphia as state budget battle continues.
		It goes through some of the numbers when it comes to funding from these various travel transportation agencies in Pennsylvania and the budget battle there.
		Try to get him one or two more calls.
		This is Steve Ridgway, Pennsylvania.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, John.
		Kudos to the guy from California, the guy from Oregon.
		Great phone calls, good points of view, perspectives that make that think, which is exactly why I watched Washington Journal in the morning.
		My experience is I was a union member for about 10, 11 years.
		And my feeling was at that point of my life that the union didn't really enable me.
		It held me back from where I wanted to go with my life.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How was it holding you back, Steve?
unidentified		Well, because everything was dictated by seniority.
		Everything was dictated by the jobs that I could advance to, the people, how long they had before they were going to retire or go to a different job.
		And everything was dictated.
		Seniority was king.
		And seniority was fine for a lot of things, such as vacation time and things of that nature.
		If somebody's here 20 years and wants the same vacation times as I did as 10 years, then he should get preference.
		But it didn't do anything when it came to job qualifications, your job knowledge, or anything like that.
		If he had one day more seniority than I did, then he was going to get the job.
		And I didn't like it that way.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Steve, what did you end up doing?
unidentified		I got into management and supervision and did very well through the years doing that.
		You know, I acquired universal skills that I could take with me to different places.
		If I would have stayed in the union that I was in, then it was in the papermakers' union at that time.
		And then I was going to be in the papermakers' union.
		And if there was not a whole lot of different jobs in the paper industry, then I was fairly limited on what I could do if I wanted to make a change.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Steve, what do you think the future of unions are in this country?
unidentified		I think they're bleak until they have been bleak for a very long time.
		You know, I haven't read the Bureau and Standards reports recently, when I say recently, within the last year or so.
		But when you look at the peak union membership back in the 1950s and 60s and what percentage of the workforce was actually part of the union member as to what it is now, it's just a fraction of that.
		At the high point, it was around 30% of the workforce was unionized.
		And now it's last I looked, it was around 13%.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		35% was sort of a peak back in the closer to the late 1930s and 40s, actually mid-40s, sorry, and early 1950s.
		And today, under 10%.
		It's the blue line on that chart that you're seeing on your screen.
unidentified		Really?
		Well, that's interesting.
		And, you know, the part that I, why I say it's spleen, because I am all for trade unions.
		I'm all for public or private sector unions.
		But when we have more than half of the union membership in this country is a public sector union member, then they become, that's just also known as a government worker.
		Then we have people who donate their lion's share of their political money to the Democrat Party, and then they just continue to support the union that way.
		So the rank and file essentially funds A management team, if you will, you know, in a negotiation type setting.
		Steve.
		And I would prefer that, no, we don't need public sector unions.
		You know, people that were.
		I'm going to give you a really good example really quick.
		I listened to WJR Radio out of Detroit, Michigan, several years back, and they had the brand new police chief.
		And he was taught, being interviewed, and talking about the challenges that he faces.
		He's the police chief of Detroit, Michigan.
		And he said that he knew he was in big trouble when he was going over the books and looking at things.
		And there was one job that had a full-time police officer in the city of Detroit whose only job function and job responsibility was to make sure that the police chief's car was full of gas at all times.
		And that was, this was probably six, seven years ago.
		So, you know, that a prevailing wage for a Detroit police officer with benefits, it had to be well over $100,000 a year just to make sure that the guy's car was filled with gas.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And you think that was because of unions?
unidentified		Well, of course it was because of unions.
		You know, you don't have a job like that in a normal setting, in a public sector union, you would have jobs like that.
		But no private corporation would ever do anything like that.
		That's insanity.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I'm short on time.
		That's Steve out of Ridgeway, Pennsylvania, our last caller in this first segment of the Washington Journal.
		Stick around.
		Plenty more to talk about this morning.
		Later on, we'll be joined by Tom Lobianco, the editor and co-founder of 24 Site News.
		We'll get a fall preview of what to watch for on Capitol Hill and Campaign 2026.
		But first, after the break, a conversation with Mark Mix of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation and David Madlin of the Center for American Progress will talk about the state of the labor movement in the United States.
		Stick around on this Labor Day.
		we'll be right back.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		Historian Jay Winning first appeared on the Book Notes television program 24 years ago to discuss his book, April 1865.
		It became a number one New York Times bestseller, reportedly read by Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, and many others.
		It's the narrative story of the Civil War.
		For his latest book, Winnick stepped back four years in history to look at how the Civil War began.
		This time, the book is titled 1861, The Lost Peace.
		Northerners had little regard for the strength or determination of the South, rights Winnick.
		Lincoln friend John Hay said the Southern Army was nothing more than a vast mob.
		The New York Tribune said it differently.
		Jeff Davis and company will be swinging from the battlements at Washington by the 4th of July.
unidentified		Author Jay Winnick with his book 1861, The Lost Peace, on this episode of BookNotes Plus with our host, Brian Lamb.
		BookNotes Plus is available wherever you get your podcasts and on the C-SPAN Now app.
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		Listen to best-selling nonfiction authors and influential interviewers on the Afterwords podcast and on Q ⁇ A. Hear wide-ranging conversations with the non-fiction authors and others who are making things happen.
		And BookNotes Plus episodes are weekly hour-long conversations that regularly feature fascinating authors of nonfiction books on a wide variety of topics.
		Find all of our podcasts by downloading the free C-SPAN Now app or wherever you get your podcasts and on our website, c-span.org slash podcasts.
		Today, watch C-SPAN for an all-day Congressional Town Hall Marathon.
		Hear from lawmakers directly as they discuss their legislative priorities, comment on recent actions by the Trump administration, and address questions and concerns raised by constituents.
		The Congressional Town Hall Marathon begins at 10 a.m. Eastern and features Oklahoma Republican Congressman Josh Burkin, Texas Democratic Congresswoman Veronica Escobar, Nebraska Republican Congressman Mike Flood, Maryland Democrat Senator Angela Olser Brooks, along with Congresswoman April McLean Delaney, sharing the same stage, and many more.
		Watch the Congressional Town Hall All-Day Marathon today, Labor Day, at 10 a.m. Eastern on C-SPAN or online at cspan.org.
		This fall, C-SPAN invites you on a powerful journey through the stories that define a nation.
		From the halls of our nation's most iconic libraries comes America's Book Club, a bold, original series where ideas, history, and democracy meet.
		Hosted by renowned author and civic leader David Rubinstein, each week features in-depth conversations with the thinkers shaping our national story.
		Among this season's remarkable guests, John Grisham, master storyteller of the American justice system.
		Justice Amy Coney Barrett, exploring the Constitution, the court, and the role of law in American life.
		Famed chef and global relief entrepreneur Jose Andres, reimagining food.
		Henry Louis Gates, chronicler of race, identity, and the American experience.
		The books, the voices, the places that preserve our past and spark the ideas that will shape our future.
		America's Book Club, premiering this fall only on C-SPAN.
		And past president.
		Why are you doing this?
		This is outrageous.
		This is a kangaroo quarter.
		This fall, C-SPAN presents a rare moment of unity.
		Ceasefire, where the shouting stops and the conversation begins.
		Join Political Playbook Chief Correspondent and White House Bureau Chief Dasha Burns as host of Ceasefire, bringing two leaders from opposite sides of the aisle into a dialogue to find common ground.
		ceasefire this fall on the network that doesn't take sides only on c-span so you interviewed the other night I watched it about 2 o'clock in the morning.
		There was a little thing called C-SPAN, which I don't know how many people were watching.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Don't worry, you were on primetime too, but they happen to have a little rerun.
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Do you really think that we don't remember what just happened last week?
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Thank goodness for C-SPAN, and we all should review the tape.
unidentified		Everyone wonders when they're watching C-SPAN what the conversations are on the floor.
al green ▲ ● ▼		I'm about to read to you something that was published by C-SPAN.
sean duffy ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of things that Congress fights about that they disagree on.
al green ▲ ● ▼		We can all watch that on C-SPAN.
unidentified		Millions of people across the country tuned into C-SPAN.
		That was a major C-SPAN moment.
		If you watch on C-SPAN, you're going to see me physically across the aisle every day, just trying to build relationships and try to understand their perspective and find common ground.
		And welcome forward to everybody watching at home.
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		We know C-SPAN covers this live as well.
unidentified		We appreciate that.
		And one can only hope that he's able to watch C-SPAN on a black and white television set in his prison cell.
		This is being carried live by C-SPAN.
		It's being watched not only in this country, but it's being watched around the world right now.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Mike said before, I happened to listen to him, he was on C-SPAN 1.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		That's a big upgrade, right?
unidentified		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And joining us once again for a roundtable discussion on the American workforce and the state of unions this Labor Day.
		It's Mark Mix, president of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, and David Madland, Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress.
		Mr. Madland, to you first, so on union membership in this country, is joining a union still a good deal for an American worker in 2025?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it definitely is.
		First, thanks for having me.
		The reason that joining a union is good for most workers is that they get higher pay, better benefits, health care, retirements, and some protections from arbitrary firing.
		They also tend to get better training.
		So yes, most workers, this is still very much a good time.
		And in fact, probably one of the best times to join a union because it's really tough out there in the labor market without a union.
		Unfortunately, as I'm sure we're going to get into, it's very hard for most workers to join a union because the law makes it very difficult.
		And so we have union membership is really at an all-time low right now, even though most workers would like to join a union.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mark Mix, is joining a union still a good deal for an American worker in 2025?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I believe so, John.
		I think that's right.
		You know, workers, everyone says workers had their place in the past, that workers, you know, needed this balance of power.
		I think there's a place, there was a place for unions, there is a place for unions, and there will be a place for unions, but they need to give up their drive for coercion and compulsion and force in labor policy.
		I mean, they've relied on government for their power instead of focusing on the American worker in the workplace on the shop floor, selling people on the benefits they can give to workers when they choose to join voluntarily.
		The whole premise of organized labor, unfortunately, and David and I will probably get into this when we talk about the objectives of union, whether it be organizing or politics or policy.
		And I think if they gave up their compulsion, like Samuel Gompers recommended as the father of the American labor movement in his final speech in El Paso, Texas in 1924, he said the workers of America adhere to voluntary institutions.
		And if you force, you will destroy that which brought together through voluntary means is inherently stronger than anything that's cobbled together through compulsion.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What is the organizing role and what is the politicking that you see that's going on?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Well, the organizing role is very simple.
		I mean, you had in 2005, you had five or six unions that said, you know what, we need to do more organizing.
		And David has written extensively about organizing and policy.
		I think there's a mix between the two, or he thinks there's a mix between the two.
		I think organizing is probably the most important part because it's the politics of union officials that have driven union members away from the union model and workers away from the union model because of their radical stands on issues that have nothing to do with the shop floor or the workplace.
		And so the politics, getting a Congress or a state legislature or a county commission that will give you power to force workers into these collectives has been a recipe that's destroyed the unions from the very beginning.
		Gompers understood it, and now we see it in the data.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madlin, have unions gotten too political?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Well, unions are political mostly because they want the law to change to make it easier to form a union.
		Certainly we can disagree about some other policies that unions for, but the vast majority of things that unions support are higher minimum wage, things that make workplaces better.
		In fact, there's a really interesting study a few years ago that showed that unions are about the only organization in all of American politics that push for things in politics that most of the public supports.
		Contrast with businesses or other lobbyists, the things that unions are pushing for, most workers support.
		And the thing that the main thing that unions are pushing for is a law that would make it easier and more possible for them to join unions.
		Right now, if a worker wants to join a union, if a company breaks the law and does something like illegally firing them, there are no financial penalties for that company.
		That needs to change, and that's the kind of thing that unions are pushing for to change in American politics.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I want to give Mr. Mix a chance to respond in just a second, but can you explain first, Mr. Madlin, what's going on with public sector unions right now?
		There's about 14 million or so union members in the United States.
		They're split about 7 million and 7 million private sector and public sector.
		What's going on when it comes to Donald Trump's second administration and public sector unions?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		So Donald Trump has gone after federal employee unions in the biggest way.
		He has engaged in the biggest union bust in single act in American history where he has tried to take away the collective bargaining rights for over a million workers, nearly 80% of those who could be unionized.
		So this is a big deal.
		And workers, you know, some things that federal employees do might not be everyone's favorite on this call, but a lot of what they do is quite popular and needed.
		They help veterans get access to health care, for example.
		They ensure that we have good weather forecasts.
		And those people have negotiated things like the right to blow the whistle and not get fired when they see something going wrong.
		And unfortunately, now Donald Trump has gone after them and trying to take that away.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		This is Eric Loomis in today's New York Times labor historian.
		He writes, based on the actions Donald Trump has taken this year alone, he says it's unlikely that there will be any unionized federal workers outside of policing agencies by the end of his term in 2029.
		Do you agree, Mr. Madlin?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, because he's going after basically any union that has done something that he might not like.
		Everyone that supports and does 100% goes along with him, he's less likely to go after.
		But any union that tries to actually represent its workers and have an independent base of power and say, actually, we think that workers should have rights, he's gone after.
		So, yeah, there's a real fear that federal employee unions will be almost completely gone if Donald Trump has his way.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Mix, give you a chance to respond.
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, getting back to the question of policy and legislation, I mean, it was the unions that asked for and had a Magna Carta in 1935 when Roosevelt signed and promoted the Wagner Act, which is the federal law that basically brings federal labor management relations into Washington, D.C.
		I mean, that was a tremendous win for organized labor.
		They basically wrote the law, even though the Supreme Court had ruled the first iteration of it as unconstitutional.
		So the idea that they don't have, quote, policy that supports him is ridiculous.
		I mean, when you look at the precedents established by the National Labor Relations Board and you look at the labor law in the states, you find that they do have a policy platform which is really unique to any private organization.
		When it comes to the public sector, as David mentioned, Donald Trump is doing what every president since Jimmy Carter has done since November of 1979, and that is going in and amending and exempting certain agencies and certain behaviors of the government from the Federal Labor Relations Act.
		Executive Order 12171 in November of 1979 was Jimmy Carter saying there are certain aspects of the federal government that shouldn't be controlled and shouldn't be negotiated by an outside organization like a labor union as to how they operate.
		And so what Donald Trump has done, to David's point, is a little more dramatic than that for sure, but he said that any agency, any federal agency that has a national security profile or has a role in the national security operations of the government, we're not going to be negotiating with them anymore.
		And you know, Donald Trump's position is one that comes with a bigger argument about unionization in the public sector.
		I mean, the idea that Franklin Roosevelt was asked about this back in 1935 or 1936, someone wrote him a letter and said, why don't we organize government unions?
		And Franklin Roosevelt says, unthinkable, you would do that because it's not the same as the private sector labor law.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think it's appropriate in any aspect of the public sector?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Policing?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		I think the unionization of the public sector is perfectly fine when workers want to join together voluntarily to amplify their voice.
		They do that in state legislatures.
		They do that in county governments.
		They do it at the federal level.
		But the idea that we have to sit down with a private entity and say, this is how we're going to run government, is putting a private organization in between our elected officials and the people that elect them.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madland, do you think there are sectors of the public sector where a union is not appropriate?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's possible in highly national security functions, and that's what the law says.
		But unfortunately, that's not what's going on here.
		Donald Trump has said that basically the entire federal workforce is about national security.
		As I said, people who help us predict the weather, people who help deliver food stamps, people who help ensure that veterans get health care.
		These are not all national security.
		This is like an abuse of power and abuse of the law.
		And unfortunately, the workers are the ones who are taking this on the chin.
		They're not getting, basically, the things they've negotiated for are rights like not being able to be fired for doing their job for actually speaking the truth.
		And you see, unfortunately, far too often, this president really just goes after anyone who disagrees with him.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Our guest in this hour, The Washington Journal, David Madland, a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, has written extensively on the American worker and union issues.
		You can see his work at AmericanProgress.org.
		Mark Mix of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, the president there.
		And you can join the conversation by jumping on the phones and giving us a call.
		Phone lines split this way.
		Democrats 202-748-8000.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		Independents 202-748-8002.
		And a special line for union workers since they've come up so much this morning, this Labor Day.
		202748-8003.
		Mr. Mix, for folks who don't know, they might know the Center for American Progress more than the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation.
		What do you do?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation has been around since 1968.
		Our primary mission is to represent employees whose rights have been violated by forced unionism agreements.
		Over the course of that tenure, representing employees only at employees, we've argued 18 cases in front of the United States Supreme Court.
		We've won several major precedents that protect workers from being their rights being violated by forced union arrangements.
		Probably the biggest victory was our Janice v. Asme decision in 2018 when the Supreme Court ruled that government employees across the country had constitutional protections against being forced to pay union dues in order to work for government.
		So we have a right-to-work law for basically every government official, every government employee across the country.
		And those members can decide to join voluntarily and pay money to a union if they choose to do so, but they can't be compelled.
		So that work goes on today.
		We have about 260 active cases any 12-month period.
		They're all on behalf of employees.
		We have 17 staff lawyers right now that do that and provide those services for free to workers who have serious questions about the power of organized labor in the workplace.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		There was a caller in the first segment of this program.
		I think she was an electrical worker.
		And she was making the argument that if employees don't join a union, then they should have to negotiate on their own for benefits with their employer, that they shouldn't benefit from the negotiations that the union has led, the people who have paid union dues.
		They shouldn't be able to just get those same benefits as the union workers without joining the union.
		What would you say to that, woman?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a very topical argument that people say, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
		But to understand that argument, you need to understand that union officials demand and protect their ability of exclusive monopoly representation.
		This goes all the way back to the labor policy in 1935 when the union said, we must speak for every person on the shop floor, and we can't allow anyone to speak independently on their own with the employer.
		That's the law today.
		We've tried to, we've asked the AFL-CIO to join us in a bill that would do this, that would say, okay, only represent those members that want to be members of your union and let other workers decide for themselves what they want to do.
		But it's the unions that protect, they protect it jealously, that idea that they can compel everyone into this union collective.
		And the idea of benefits, when you think about benefits, you have this broad kind of sweeping definition of benefits.
		Not every worker benefits from the actions of an organized labor union official in a monopoly bargaining agreement.
		Imagine when seniority comes in on layoffs, whether you're the best worker or the worst worker, it doesn't matter.
		Simply being there longer than another worker gives them the ability to push you out of the workplace if there's something that happens in the workplace.
		So the idea of wages and what retirement benefits versus current cash are things that people have questions about all the time.
		And there are times when union officials are union members are pitted against each other.
		We've had cases where a worker gets a promotion and a union official comes in and says, hey, you can't have that because Jim has worked here longer than you and he gets the promotion.
		You don't, even though you may be performing better.
		So this notion of everyone benefits is wrong.
		And secondarily, this monopoly bargaining keeps that collectivism in place through force of law.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madeline, should anybody ever be compelled to join a union to get a job?
		And I think we're struggling hearing.
		Mr. Madeline, we're going to work on your sound as we take a few phone calls, Mr. Madeline.
		I'll come back to you because I want to hear an answer to what you were saying there.
		This is Don out of South Carolina, Republican.
		Don, go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm disappointed in the conversation to this point between the two panelists.
		As someone who's run large companies as a career, I think we're missing the core issue for the nation and its productivity and economy, which has really been in declining malaise for many decades now as the The scales have been tilted toward forced unionization.
		At the same time, the regulatory bodies, local, state, and federal, have also promulgated tons of statutes and regulations that govern workplaces and employee rights.
		And there's civil and criminal actions all over the place, bureaucratic actions all over the place.
		It's really obsoleted much of what unions claim to desire to do back in the 10s, 20s, 30s in America.
		And the novel notion that public sector workers should be unionized, that's really largely nuisance JFK in terms of numbers.
		And it's a breach of the founders' vision of sacrificial public service, and it's bankrupting local and state governments because they can't print their own money.
		It's really already bankrupted the federal government, but we do print money at the federal level.
		And so we don't talk about it, even though it really is the sad condition of our country.
		So the foundational issue that isn't being discussed is the lack of trust and unity in an organization so it can truly compete long-term and win.
		And I've watched industry after industry, company after company fail, and now cities, states, counties failing because the unions aren't accountable.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Don, let me take that up with Mark Micks.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Don, sorry to disappoint you.
		The questions that were directed at a larger context, but I agree with you.
		The idea that unions don't have protection and the laws are deficient in that regard is just completely false.
		You're right.
		I mean, the precedents that have been laid down by the National Labor Relations Board, the state legislatures when it comes to public unionization, those policies have empowered this private organization beyond all proportions of their numbers, out of proportion to their numbers, as a matter of fact.
		And you're right.
		The productivity and the work rules and those things have destroyed industries.
		And there's no question about that.
		And it all stems on this policy debate over whether or not they continue to have the ability to force workers to associate with them and then pay dues in the states that don't have right to work laws.
		So I agree.
		Your position is right on that.
		And I apologize for not getting to it a little sooner.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The numbers on union membership by sector in this country, we talked about them a little bit earlier, about 14.3 million union members in this country.
		That's right, about 10% of the total workforce.
		But the public sector, the percentage of the public sector that's unionized, much higher, 32%, and that accounts for about 7 million American workers.
		When it comes to the private sector, it's about 7.2 million union members, but that's just about 6% of the private sector workforce.
		Those are the numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
		This is Dexter out of Cincinnati, Ohio.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, it's good to talk to you.
		I'm a proud member or was I'm retired 392 Cincinnati pipe vendors union.
		And, you know, for any big job, you want to get people that know what they're doing right away.
		You want a workforce of like 400, 500 people.
		You can get them right there.
		You know, you will not, you know, and then you go from job to job.
		You need to have, you can't renegotiate every time you go.
		And this is why unions basically voted for Trump was they're training, they were training totally people from out of this country to go on jobs and to under under bid unions and it was like it would ruin us.
		So this is why Trump really got a lot of the workers votes.
		So you know it would totally ruin us.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Mark Mix, would you agree?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah dexter, that's a great point that he makes the idea that um uh, you know that workers uh need to be, need to be represented and need to need to have some uh continuity in construction jobs.
		That's a really interesting point.
		But the bottom line is this, only about 10 of all construction workers in the country have a union card in their wallet.
		90 are non-union merit shop contractors do excellent construction work around the country and to say that that's not true is just just not uh understanding the facts in the business.
		You know again, union officials in the construction industry have gotten uh governments just to basically put their thumb on the scale with so-called project labor agreements that say only union contractors can bid on jobs with government money involved in it.
		But the idea of him talking about private sector workers supporting Donald Trump he's right for the first time uh, in a long time.
		The majority of private sector workers, including union households and union members, voted for Donald Trump.
		I mean Sean O'brien, the Teamster president, made this clear when they did a survey of their workers and he said that 60 percent of their members said we need to support Donald Trump.
		But yet the Teamsters wouldn't endorse any candidate for president.
		And yet the unions supported Kamala Harris 99.7 percent of the money they gave politically the presidential campaign.
		So the union officials are out of touch with rank-and-file workers.
		Dexter makes a good point.
		Donald Trump's agenda about securing the border and doing those things that help Americans get jobs, keep jobs and grow jobs in America has been an agenda that people support, and yet union officials were completely on the other side of that.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I believe we have mr Madlin back, David Madlin from the Center FOR American Progress.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Uh, David Madlin, can you hear me?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		I can.
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Sorry for the technical difficulty.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		No, that's quite all right.
		Uh, plenty happened while you were gone.
		Let me give you a chance to respond.
		Uh, first was uh, the comments about union members and support for Donald Trump and in the previous election.
		That's one, and then the other one was the question you were answering when we lost you on.
		Should anybody be compelled to join a union to get a job, i'll let them.
unidentified		Let you take in whatever order you want sure, no one can be compelled.
david madland ▲ ● ▼		No one can be compelled to join a union to get a job.
		That's the law.
		So they shouldn't and they aren't.
		What they should be able to do is join a union freely and fairly, and unfortunately the law makes that very, very difficult.
		So let's just step back to where we are as we started the thing.
		Unions provide all sorts of good things that we really need in the economy now, higher wages for workers, better benefits and right now we have record high numbers of workers saying they would like to join a union.
		Over half of workers would like to join a union and unions are very popular.
		They are about two-thirds almost 70 percent of the public support unions and would like them to be stronger.
		Unfortunately, worker tries to form a union.
		Their employer has all sorts of powers and tools that let them bust unions, and then he's the company crosses the line, that workers are basically out of luck because the law does very little for them.
		And even worse, things like Donald Trump has basically gutted the National Labor Relations Board, which would effectively enforce whatever the very weak current law.
		So there's almost no deterrent right now for companies that break law.
		So that's the big picture situation we're in.
		That also gets to why a lot of unions did not endorse Donald Trump because they knew he would go after them.
		He would go after anyone that opposed his agenda.
		That said, certainly some workers did support Donald Trump, but the majority of union members did support Kamala Harris.
		That's sort of, that's just what when workers are educated about economic issues, they tend to listen to their unions more often, not always.
		So now we're in the situation of what do you do?
		And we need a lot of workers at this moment to stand up and say we think we need a law that actually protects us.
		And we also need to go out and take action to organize their employers so they can get a good union contract with higher wages and benefits.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Markmix, what does the National Labor Relations Board do and is it functioning right now?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the National Labor Relations Board, at the time it was created back in 1935, 1937, when the Supreme Court upheld the Wagner Act, it was a three-member board.
		Now it's a five-member board that adjudicates disputes between unions and employers and employees and unions.
		That's one of the important part of the equation that generally, you know, we don't talk about employees fighting back against union power as we talk about unions and quote businesses fighting and have these conflicts in the workplace.
		Just to get back to a couple of points, David said that no worker can be forced to join a union as a condition of employment.
		That is true today, but from 1937 to 1963, it wasn't true.
		Literally, the law said you had to formally join a private organization in order to keep your job.
		A Supreme Court case called General Motors versus National Labor Relations Board in 1963 said, you know, that's probably a bridge too far.
		We probably shouldn't force people to join a private organization, but we can force them to pay up to 100% of dues to keep their jobs.
		So from 1963 till today, David's right, no worker could be compelled to forcibly join a union, but they can be compelled to pay up to 100% of dues to keep their jobs.
		So that's that.
		But the idea, the idea of, you know, union officials and the power they have and the law, Don spoke about it.
		Don from South Carolina talked about the rules, regulations, all the things that government has done to basically put restraint on people that create jobs and create opportunity is real.
		And this idea that this labor law is weak is, I just don't agree with David on that.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madlin, just quickly, do you think the National Labor Relations Board is functioning today?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		It's not.
		So Donald Trump has fired one of the board members, which leaves it without a quorum.
		It doesn't have enough members to actually make final decisions.
		So right now, the board, sort of the staff level, can do things and say a company or a union violated the law, but an ultimate decision cannot be made.
		And what I want to get to one thing that's sort of important here is Mark supported the actions to prevent the actions by Donald Trump to fire someone at the NLRB so that the board cannot act.
		So that means even though it's supposed workers that he stands up for that want to go say their union broke the law, those workers have no final say right now.
		So most of the time it's companies that are breaking law, but sometimes unions do, and those workers should have access to justice.
		And right now they don't.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the National Labor Relations Board should function?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		I mean, unfortunately, because federal labor policy says it has to in order to adjudicate federal labor policy.
		But David is talking about a fairly significant constitutional issue that has been talked about for a while.
		And it goes back to a 1935 Supreme Court case called Humphrey's Executor, which is a question about the unitary executive authority of the president under Article II of the Constitution.
		And what that says, basically, back then it said that the president didn't have the ability to remove board members of independent agencies.
		This agency was the Federal Trade Commission back in 1935.
		President Hoover had appointed this Humphrey guy to the board.
		Roosevelt wanted him off.
		There was a correspondence between the two.
		Roosevelt ended up removing him.
		And Humphrey's executor, because Humphrey passed away, sued the United States government and won at the Supreme Court level, saying the president didn't have the authority.
		Well, that was a fairly significant case, and it's moved its way all the way through 1988 in a case called Morrison and a case called CELA to the point now where we have a question about Article II powers of the president, whether or not he's the only one accountable under Article II to the general population, the electorate.
		He's the one that can be held accountable.
		And the question was: do these agencies that have policy-making authority, can the president basically exercise Article II powers over them?
		And the answer is pretty clearly yes.
		The Fifth Circuit just three weeks ago argued this case in a case called SpaceX that was Elon Musk's space company.
		They basically said the president has to have this authority because those agencies are not accountable to the general public.
		So there's a big question there.
		We believed in the removal power of the president.
		Biden did it when he was sworn in back in 2021 or whenever that was, 2021, yeah.
		Within a couple minutes of being sworn in, he asked their fire the general counsel of the National Labor Relations Board, something that had never been done.
		The question of statutory authority to fire a national labor relations board member was the question in these cases.
		And it's been, I don't think it's been settled yet, but the Supreme Court is interested in, has expressed interest in getting the case.
		The Fifth Circuit's now set teed up a case for this.
		So the board is not functioning.
		There are two nominees for the board right now.
		There's a general counsel nominee.
		The Senate needs to confirm them, and the board can be working again.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me bring in a few more callers in this segment.
		This is Thomas who's been waiting in Derwood, Maryland, line for Democrats.
		Thomas, go ahead.
unidentified		Good morning, gentlemen.
		I have a couple questions, so I hope you give me time to say what I want to say and answer questions I want to ask.
		To the gentleman for the legal defense fund, he keeps going back to the 1930s.
		Well, in the 1930s, black people couldn't work hardly at all.
		I mean, it was up to a, I don't want to say it like this, but it was up to the white owners to pay a person.
		And they didn't, and they were discriminating against black people hard.
		And you know that yourself.
		So talk about the 1930s cases is kind of like a slide note because they weren't hiring blacks in those unions.
		Blacks were struggling.
		And they were being discriminated against by these powerful white industrialists.
		So I don't know why he keeps going back to the 1930 cases when that was the height of Jim Crow and discrimination and racism.
		And today, and when you talk about Donald Trump, you know, you look at who he's firing.
		No one wants to really come out and say it, but Donald Trump's team has done research on the race of the people that work for the government.
		And you can see he's going after a lot of the black members because a lot of the black union people in the government were black.
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let me, okay, let me get out of the 1930s and move to 1944 in a Supreme Court decision called Louisville-Nashville Railroad versus Steel.
		This was a case by black railroad employees against union officials that were discriminating against them and said they didn't want to represent black workers.
		One of the ideas, Thomas, you talk about it, and it's real.
		I don't want to argue about that, but union officials are just as guilty about this racism in the union movement as anybody else that you want to blame for it.
		The bottom line in this case was the union said we will not represent these black workers on the railroad.
		And it went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said this: look, if you union officials demanded exclusive monopoly representation, unfortunately, I'm going back to the 1930s and the 1935 Wagner Act, they said then you have the power to basically control the employment of everyone that's under this union umbrella.
		And the white union officials were discriminating against the black workers on the railroad.
		And that's when the duty of fair representation came out of a Supreme Court precedent in that case in 1944.
		So there's a lot more to this story.
		And I will go from 1940 to the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.
		I'll go to 2,000 right now to talk about the idea of compulsion and discrimination in the workplace and how giving workers the right to basically hold union officials accountable is the answer to that question.
		Giving them the choice whether or not they want to financially support a labor union that may do the things that the unions did back in 1944 in the railroad industry.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Badlin, did you want to chime in?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, unions are the biggest civil rights organization in the entire country, represent more workers than any other organization that represents the interests of black or Hispanic.
		And so unions are one of the most powerful forces for justice because when you have a union contract, it ensures that workers get paid a similar wage for similar pay.
		That prevents discrimination.
		It makes sure that the workplace is fairer.
		And that's the kind of thing, that's why we have workers wanting to join unions.
		They want a fair system.
		And it's the kind of thing we need far more of in the future.
		But unfortunately, as the caller alluded to, Donald Trump is going after anyone that stands in power, but especially it seems like black folks.
		For example, the person from the NLRB that he fired a black woman.
		He left the white people on the board, but went after the black woman to fire her.
		That does not look good in my eyes.
		It also does not look good for most American workers who now don't have access to justice because the NLRB is not able to function.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me go to Kimberly, Alabama, where Chuck is waiting on that line for members of unions.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Chuck, go ahead.
lexington in north carolina ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I was a union member for one union or another for 45 years.
unidentified		I'm retired now.
		But I like to make the point that most issues are dealt on the local level with unions.
		And you're only as strong as your president and business manager are the ones that do the negotiation with a company.
robert in tennesee ▲ ● ▼		The next point is half of our union dues go to the international, who is the national group that oversees the union.
unidentified		We can't have a union without them.
robert in tennesee ▲ ● ▼		But I could have taken, and every I would think that all the money that I've put into my union dues over the years was done, was well done by the local level.
unidentified		But half of it I could have taken and burn it because it is just they the people on the international level are corrupt.
		They spend money for parties that look this guy is trying to make out like we union members don't support Trump.
		He's talking about public service unions.
		Yeah, I can see why they wouldn't.
		But we're talking, when I'm talking about real trade unions and people that really work, not government-supported unions, which FDR never envisioned we would have so many of them.
		He never envisioned we would have that many government-supported unions.
		I would say anyway, that's who he's talking about.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		He's not let me take up some of those issues, and Mr. Madlin, give you a chance to start.
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as I said, the majority of union members did support Kamala Harris.
		Certainly, plenty, lots of workers supported Donald Trump.
		That's their right.
		They should vote how they want.
		But they should also know that Donald Trump is not just going after public sector unions.
		He's also going after private sector unions.
		Unfortunately, he could be strengthening their rights, but he is not.
		There's no law he's pushing to make it easier to join a union, no law making it easier to form a collective bargaining agreement.
		Unfortunately, as I said, he has made it so that when a company breaks the law and fires a worker for joining a union, they have no recourse right now because the National Labor Relations Board does not function.
		So to me, that's a big worry, and it is not what the public wants.
		And you see, what most of the workers who supported, you know, most American workers want policies that promote higher wages and they want policies that promote unions.
		Unfortunately, they're not getting that right now.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madlin, to the point that the caller was making that he liked how the union was working on the local level, but he didn't like the money that went to the national union organization, didn't like how they were spending money.
		That color was not the first color of the day to make that point.
		In the first hour of our program, Color made an almost exactly similar point that he did not like the politician on the national level, but really thought the local money was spent well.
		Is this an issue that union leaders need to figure out and better at least communicate or help their workers understand?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it certainly is.
		Figuring out how to represent your members is the essence of what union leaders need to do.
		And it is, you know, both at the local level, that is where unions form, where workers see what their unions are doing, and they see less.
		It's harder to imagine what the money that you're paying to the national organization is doing.
		So the unions need to figure out how to communicate.
		But also the local unions, they choose sometimes to unaffiliate, go to a different union to figure out what represents them best.
		But again, ultimately, most workers think their unions are doing a good job.
		90% say they want to keep joining and keep staying with their union because they think that the money they're paying, the efforts they're making, provides a good value for them.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Bicks?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think Chuck makes a great point.
		The disconnect between, particularly in the private sector, disconnect between union officials here in Washington, D.C. and rank-and-file workers in Alabama and across the country is growing wider and wider and wider on political issues and policy issues.
		You know, it's interesting that the debate about union power always boils down to new laws, new government action, and new government privilege and power for unions.
		And the idea of selling a product, i.e., union representation that hopefully benefits the workers that choose to join voluntarily has been lost in all this because every response to a problem with or a perceived problem that exists between employers and employees is more government regulation, more government involvement, more government policy.
		And as I mentioned at the very beginning, John, about Samuel Gompers, he knew that the delegates of the AFL at the time were starting to look at legislative action as part of the equation of how they were going to operate.
		And he made that question in his final speech in El Paso.
		We're adhering to voluntary institutions.
		Yet, everything that David talks about, everything that union officials talk about, whether it be the PRO Act or the Public Employee Bargaining Act and things that are currently pending in Congress, are designed to give union officials more power over workers.
		And it comes from government decrees as opposed to kind of an organic growth in the union saying, hey, build something and they will come because you're doing great work and great service and you're focused on the shop floor and not what's happening in Washington, D.C. or Montgomery, Alabama, or wherever it is that unions are operating politically.
		I mean, having your voice heard in the political process is one thing.
		Having a government grant you new powers to force more workers into your collectives is completely the wrong answer and it's proven to be for organized labor.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Mr. Mix, at the beginning, you said you're not against unions.
		In your mind, what is an ideal union?
		What is the ideal way a union should operate?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's it, you know, we had an experience with that.
		As Gomper said, they were voluntary institutions, they were guilds that got together, much like European unions in this country.
		The United States is one of the, I think, one of two, maybe even the only company or country that has exclusive monopoly bargaining, meaning everybody in the workplace has to be part of the collective.
		And that's really what I think is one of the problems.
		You know, they were guilds, they were voluntary until 1935.
		I won't say that they work great or work better, and I apologize to I guess it was Dexter in Ohio that said I was always in the 1930s.
		But that's where this started.
		That's where this power of union, this policymaking and the drive for political power started when they were granted these unique powers.
		I think unions could exist voluntarily.
		I mean, if the union does a great job and services workers, I think they will join organizations voluntarily.
		But the idea that you force them into these collectives is really, I think, augurs against their ability to attract workers in America.
		And I think that the data shows that.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madlin, is the system that Mr. Mix just described something that could exist today?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		He's not going to get us there because I don't see really much effort to support unions.
		But let's again step back to the basic facts.
		Most workers would like to join a union.
		The public wants stronger unions.
		When workers voluntarily choose together, which is what they are doing under the law, unfortunately, their employer hires them.
unidentified		Good luck.
david madland ▲ ● ▼		They're desperate.
		They need a job.
		There's very little recourse right now.
		Goes back to the original law.
		The reason that, you know, Mark Mix goes back to the 1930s.
		Before that, what was happening was employers were actually going out and beating up, hiring police to go after union members who voluntarily joined together, but the employers didn't like it.
		Well, unions, now the employers have a more sophisticated version that's not no violence, but they take away people's ability to earn a living.
		So that is why the policy needs a change.
		And that's why I'll talk about it.
		But the voluntary, that is where the essence of worker power comes from: workers choose to come together to say we want to bargain collectively, get a union contract with higher wages and better benefits.
		And that's the kind of thing we need today.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		About 10 minutes left in our roundtable discussion.
		Let me bring in a few more callers.
		Tony's been waiting in the Keystone State.
		It's Flower Town, Pennsylvania, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
		So a great conversation about unions.
		I wish you guys had somebody that was truly in support of unions on the program.
		The caller that is talking about, you know, there's a problem with, you know, it's not even clear what he thinks the problem is.
		We need the problem is we need it to be voluntary.
		And the reason we've lost unions is because it's not voluntary.
		That's just ridiculous.
		The issue with unions is that the corporations took the jobs and they shipped them to places with no regulation, no environmental protection, no labor protections like Mexico to start with.
		And then when the standard of living went up in Mexico, they decided, let's go to Southeast Asia where we can have sweatshop slave labor and then China.
		And then they built up China's economy so that they have more billionaires than any place in the world.
		And that's what happened to union membership is the jobs all went overseas.
		The American business class betrayed America.
		And this man right here who is talking about right to work, it's so obviously he's anti-union and we're all pretending that he's not.
		I wish that we had a host and a member that came on that was actually in support of unions and actually had some data.
		It's just a no-brainer.
		If you look at what the American labor force was like prior to unionization, it's just a joke that we're even questioning whether unions are good or we're questioning why union membership is down.
		I personally tried to start a union.
		It was in 2005.
		We were quickly all fired.
		The company paid a nice little fine to the National Labor Relations Board and business continued.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What line of work was it on?
unidentified		I don't have a right to organize in this country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What line of work were you in when that happened?
unidentified		Thank you for asking.
		So I was a family therapist doing therapy with foster children and there was a large private equity company called the Mentor Network that's in 32 states, has 33,000 employees, and they're just siphoning money off of foster kids in this country.
		And it's despicable and disgusting.
		So we tried to unionize to represent those foster kids and provide better homes and treatment.
		And they brought in lawyers, union-busting lawyers from Chicago and fired us all and then paid a fine.
		That's it.
		That's what happened.
		And again, you guys need to get some people that really support unions on the show and some facts.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Tony in Pennsylvania.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madlin, let you start.
david madland ▲ ● ▼		I strongly support unions.
		I am that guy.
		And that's what I've been trying to highlight.
		There's your story that I thought your personal example of wanting to form a union because you knew it would be good for you, your coworkers, but also the worker, the people you're trying to protect, the foster kids, and that you thought that would help balance the power between employers and workers and society.
		And that's why we need stronger unions, why we need more unions.
		But unfortunately, as your story highlights, the company has almost carteblanched to do what it wants right now.
		It fired you guys with basically no repercussions.
		That's the current status quo, and that's what needs change.
		And unfortunately, Mark likes the current situation and even wants to find ways to make it harder for people to form unions.
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, David, you wrote a piece the other day that talked about the four years of the Biden administration and how union density still even decreased.
		But you made the point about 70% of win rate in union elections.
		I mean, obviously, if you're out there organizing and holding union elections and you win 70% of them, you would think that that would be a model that would be helpful to the union movement.
		But again, giving workers the ability to try to join unions and form unions is something the law protects.
		The NLRB has the 22 must-nots for employers of things they can't do, like fire Tony.
		Obviously, the remedy may not be sufficient for you or Tony in that matter.
		And maybe it wasn't.
		But the idea is it's against the law to fire workers for trying to form unions.
		Maybe there should be a little more bite in the penalties.
		But the bottom line is this, the protection of the National Labor Relations Act.
		And, you know, you say it's not functioning.
		It's been a couple of months.
		And that's a problem.
		I agree.
		Administrative law judges are making decisions that are impacting workers' rights and union rights and employer rights in the workplace without any recourse to the board or to the federal courts because of the jurisdiction of the NLRB.
		You know this, the unreviewable discretion in an election case that can't go to the federal courts.
		These are kind of interesting questions about the law.
		But the idea, you know, Tony makes the point.
		I think David David speaks for unions.
		I think we speak for employees.
		And employees are the things that make up unions or don't make up unions.
		So I think we're having a good discussion today.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Clark in Brooksville, Florida, line for Democrats.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		I think this would be a great day to move to a co-op type workplace and leave the corruption and coronies behind.
		People look for Democrats and Republicans as the solution, and I think they're the problem.
		Here in Florida, it's illegal to be homeless.
		I think we should make it be illegal to be capitalists.
		I'd like to hear comments on co-op workplaces.
		I think this would be a good time for U.S. Steel to make a movement to give to the employees to keep it in America.
		It would be an American.
		And what would really be remarkable, it would be a democracy.
		Because I've never worked in a place that had democracy or republic or it was all my way or the highway.
		I'll listen to your comments.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Madeline, on co-op workplaces?
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so the idea behind a co-op is kind of a each person has a share, a stake in the company and that's sort of equal voting share.
		It's one of the ways that throughout history we've tried to balance the power of corporations and workers.
		There are others, there's employee ownership, and still another.
		And one we're talking about today is about unions.
		And all of them, what they have is that in a capitalist economy, the owners of the business have lots of power, and we want to find a way to have a little bit more balance so that workers can get paid a little bit better, aren't as vulnerable to exploitation.
		And co-ops are one way.
		They tend to have not scaled as much.
		The biggest success has been in employee ownership, where workers have a small stake in the company and in unions.
		And they are all ways that I see that are important, especially now when companies are having record profits, record power, and workers' wages have been stagnant.
		Cost of living is near, you know, going out.
		It's really hard to afford a house or afford food, afford health care.
		And these are the kind of things we need right now.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Short on time.
		Let me get one more call in from that line for labor union members.
		John in Toledo.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yes.
		I've been 34 years at UAW, and it seems like they've spend 95% of the time working for 10% of the people who don't want work.
		And it's and the UAW is the most corrupt of all unions.
		That's my point of view.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		David Madeline, I'd like you to Mark Mix, I'll give you the final minute or so.
david madland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, not everything unions do is going to be perfect or good, and that's why we have a law that makes sure unions actually represent all workers fairly.
		And that's partly why they sometimes have to represent people who aren't doing necessarily the best job.
		They have to represent all workers.
		But the bigger picture, again, is that generally what unions do is help workers get a fair share of the economic pie.
		More workers would like to join unions right now, but unfortunately, they're not able to.
		And so union membership is basically 100-year lows.
		We need to change so that workers are able to get together and they need to start taking action to make that happen.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mark Mix, the final word?
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, John, you make a great point about the United Auto Workers Union that had, what, I think, 14 executives convicted and their two past presidents went to jail.
		And whether or not union officials have accountability over the top leadership of unions, a really important question.
		I think like 30 UAW members filed a lawsuit against the union itself to get reimbursement of this corruption in the UAW, and they were dismissed for lack of standing, which is really an interesting question.
		But the idea of forced unionism is really the problem, getting back to my original statement.
		In the 26 states that have right-to-work laws, you have six or seven states that have higher union density than states that don't have right-to-work laws that make unionism voluntary.
		So we believe that voluntary unionism and the ability to give union officials and, or excuse me, union members the ability to hold union officials accountable, whether it be for politics or corruption, is a secret to making for a better union.
		Compulsion has no place in that equation.
		Force doesn't either.
		And it's proven by the numbers over the course of time.
		And the idea that all employers are against workers is just ridiculous.
		We use the word corporation to describe business.
		Most of the businesses in this country are small businesses, private businesses, where their families own.
		And we talk about that in the same vein as large corporations.
		That's just not true.
		And those powers that you want to attack these big corporations come down and affect small businesses and small family-owned businesses is really a problem.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation can be found at nrtw.org.
		Mark Mix is the president of that organization.
		And then, of course, David Madeline's work can be found at AmericanProgress.org, Senior Advisor at the Center for American Progress.
		Always appreciate a Labor Day discussion with both you gentlemen.
		Come back again.
mark mix ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, John.
unidentified		Thanks, Raz.
unidentified		Thanks.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Coming up next, it's Tom Lobianco, editor and co-founder of the political website 24 Sight News.
		We'll get a preview of what's coming up when Congress returns to town and take a look ahead at campaign 2026.
		We'll be right back.
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		And past president.
		Why are you doing this?
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		This is outrageous.
unidentified		This is a kangaroo quarrel.
		This fall, C-SPAN presents a rare moment of unity.
		Ceasefire, where the shouting stops and the conversation begins.
		Join political playbook chief correspondent and White House Bureau Chief Dasha Burns as host of Ceasefire, bringing two leaders from opposite sides of the aisle into a dialogue to find common ground.
		Ceasefire, this fall, on the network that doesn't take sides, only on C-SPAN.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		I saw you interviewed the other night.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		I watched it about two o'clock in the morning.
unidentified		There was a little thing called C-SPAN, which I don't know how many people were watching.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Don't worry, you were on prime time too, but they happen to have a little rerun.
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Do you really think that we don't remember what just happened last week?
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Thank goodness for C-SPAN, and we all should review the tape.
unidentified		Everyone wonders when they're watching C-SPAN what the conversations are on the floor.
al green ▲ ● ▼		I'm about to read to you something that was published by C-SPAN.
sean duffy ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of things that Congress fights about that they disagree on.
al green ▲ ● ▼		We can all watch that on C-SPAN.
unidentified		Millions of people across the country tuned into C-SPAN.
		That was a made-for-C-SPAN moment.
		If you watch on C-SPAN, you're going to see me physically across the aisle every day, just trying to build relationships and try to understand their perspective and find common ground.
		And welcome forward to everybody watching at home.
		We know C-SPAN covers this live as well.
		We appreciate that.
		And one can only hope that he's able to watch C-SPAN on a black and white television set in his prison cell.
		This is being carried live by C-SPAN.
		It is being watched not only in this country, but it's being watched around the world right now.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Mike said before, I happened to listen to him, he was on C-SPAN 1.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		That's a big upgrade, right?
unidentified		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And we welcome Tom Lobianco back to our desk, an author, a longtime political reporter, and for the past 20 months has run 24 Site News.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tom Lobianco, explain what 24 Site News is, where it fits into the media ecosystem.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, part of this growing, we are part of this growing world of independent journalism.
		Find us on Substack.
		Head on over to 24Sight, number 24SIGHT.news.
		And, you know, I'm out there last year covering the presidential.
		This year, me and my colleague, Julie Grace Brufke, longtime congressional reporter, covering the midterms.
		A lot going on, covering everything that's happening here in Washington, and there's no shortage of that.
		And every day, stop by at noon.
		I got a regular show, Tom Lobianko Reports hosted on Substack, Political Voices Network.
		And, you know, I'm just keeping this.
		I approach this as an associated press reporter.
		All right.
		You know, I worked at the AP for five years, and that's how I approach this.
		And yeah, man, you know, it's going good.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I know you and Julie Grace Browfki, both longtime and very good political reporters, but how do two reporters cover it all?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		We can't.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So how do you pick what to cover?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		You know, we were talking about this a couple months ago, and it reminds me years ago I was on the Metro desk at the Washington Times, and I used to cover Maryland politics, Maryland State House.
		You zig and zag.
		You don't go with the pack.
		You go for a lot of enterprise reporting and scoops where you can get them.
		All right.
		You know, back, you know, when I was there 20 years ago, I think we had maybe four or five total reporters on the Metro desk.
		So, you know, there's a model for it.
		And, you know, then you rely on the wires, so to say.
		There's a reason that you subscribe to AP Reuters AFP.
		All right.
		Tune into C-SPAN.
		All right.
		We got, you know, get the basics covered.
		Then we go at the stuff, you know, original reporting, scoops.
		Julie Grace has had some very wild Nancy May stories.
		There will be many more of those as she runs for governor.
		So, yeah.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So what will you be covering when Congress returns from the August recess tomorrow and gets ready to face down several fiscal deadlines in the coming weeks?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Definitely shut down.
		Got to worry about that.
		Got to see how the Democrats play this a little bit different than the beginning of the year.
		We're going to be watching that.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Why is it going to be different than how they played it earlier this year?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, you've had, and regular viewers of C-SPAN, I love this, the marathon town halls.
		You know, this is, you know, as I've noted before, kind of the Democratic Tea Party moment right now.
		And I think that at the beginning of the administration, it was a little bit more confusion.
		The Democrats were not quite attuned.
		I often like to mention that, you know, for as much as politicians and elected officials get knocked for being flip-floppers, you know, for moving with whatever way the wind blows, they're also very good weather vans.
		They're good barometers of sentiment.
		And you can see that reflected in how Gavin Dewsom is approaching things now or the rise of J.B. Pritzker and this combative model.
		So I think there's more pressure on the Democrats now coming from the Democratic base after, you know, we're eight months into this administration right now.
		So more pressure there.
		The other thing we're going to be watching is I know Rokana and Thomas Massey are moving on the Epstein files.
		That's still an issue.
		So we're going to be paying close attention to that.
		I had Tara Paul Mary on my show about a month ago, excellent, excellent Epstein files reporter.
		And one of the things that she noted, and Julie Kay Brown, of course, the Epstein reporter now at the Miami Herald has noted this many times before as well.
		There's not a lot more that you're going to get out of this.
		There is no client list, but it remains a huge issue.
		And people across the political spectrum are animated by this.
		I think those are really going to be the two big issues that we're watching.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You mentioned town halls.
		I should mention that today when this program is over at 10 a.m. Eastern in about 45 minutes, we will be showing here on C-SPAN a congressional town hall marathon, town halls that took place over the last several weeks as part of the August recess.
		We're going to be airing them in their entirety here on C-SPAN.
		And you can also watch those town halls.
		If there's one in particular that you want to watch right now, you can go to C-SPAN.org and watch them.
		Come back to the Epstein files.
		What exactly are Rokana and Thomas Massey doing this week when they start?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		They're pushing for the Justice Department to release the files.
		And this is an ongoing issue.
		Conversely, there's strata of this.
		Julie Grace wrote about this about a week or two ago when they submitted a batch of files over to Comer at House Oversight, James Comer.
		And that included, it's very interesting, of course, included the Todd Blanch Justice Department interview with Glenn Maxwell.
		So the question now is, can they successfully push to get more, if not all, of it out there?
		How much is redacted?
		You saw the White House, you saw the Trump White House and Pam Bondi try this maneuver, putting it to the courts, and then the courts said, no, we're not going to release it.
		I'm surprised, just as somebody, you know, in this nanosecond news cycle that we've been living in for the last decade or so, the Epstein story continues to have legs.
		It's remarkable.
		Usually these things, they come on the scene for about 24, 48 hours and then vanish.
		Epstein is one of the biggest stories of this administration, rightly, wrongly, whatever.
		It animates a huge part of the populace across the political spectrum.
		So we're going to be watching to see if they're able to do that.
		And conversely, if Mike Johnson, Speaker Mike Johnson, working with the White House, is able to keep a lid on it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		In terms of news cycles, the cycle of campaign 2026 has already begun.
		428 days.
		I did the math until Election Day, campaign 2026.
		So how does this rash of redistricting and mid-cycle redistricting, how is it going to change how you try to figure out how to cover campaign 2026?
		How is it changing the map right now, the House map?
		Obviously.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		You know, you still have, I've been focusing a lot at 24 Site News on the Virginia elections, and we're going to have a special election to fill Jerry Connolly's seat coming up next week.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		That's the 11th district up here in Northern Virginia.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Democrats in any danger of losing that seat?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		No, they look fine.
		So they'll hold on to that.
		That doesn't change the margins in the House.
		Inside the House, I'm watching this.
		I actually have, you know, after you're done signing up for 24 Site News, make sure to sign up for Cook Political Report, our Bible, along with numerous.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		C-SPAN viewers are well familiar with the Cook Political Report.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		And also, I love Amy Walter, who's just incredible.
		They've been doing such a great job over there.
		Jessica Taylor, I mean, they so incredible.
		So, you know, I was looking down the list of their race ratings beforehand.
		You have a few interesting ones.
		You have Don Bacon leaving in Nebraska.
		So that's potential there for the Democrats.
		I was reading, Nate Cohn had a very good piece at the New York Times on this about a day ago, something like that.
		And it was talking about, broadly speaking, what this does.
		If you start to add in places like Indiana, a one-seed pickup there, Missouri, you add that in, Florida.
		In terms of the Republican gerrymandered advantage that they start to get out of that, it moves the number up broadly.
		But I'm still paying attention to what you might call our current battlegrounds.
		20 years ago, people would look to places like Ohio and Florida, not so much anymore.
		Now we looked at the Rust Belts, Michigan, Wisconsin, some very good statewide races there.
		Alaska is very interesting.
		Mary Peltola, whether she decides to go for governor or for Senate up there.
		I also saw that Murkowski might have another Republican challenger.
		And this is what, 2026, 18 years after she, or I think 18, 16 year, whatever it was, after she won on the write-in campaign, years and years ago, legendary.
		That was an incredible campaign.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I think she writes about it in her new book that's out.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Oh, outstanding.
		Yeah, I got to get that.
		There was a really good one.
		I was talking with Julie Mason about this months ago.
		About, I think she had Ron Wyden up there.
		I think that's right.
		And she dipped a graham cracker into natural gas, liquefied natural gas, and said, here, eat it.
		And he ate it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure if that's in the book, but I'll certainly take it.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		I think that's in Wyden's book.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tom Lubianco with us this morning, taking your calls.
		We're talking campaign 2026, Congress returning to town this week after the long August recess.
		What questions do you have?
		What are you going to be watching for?
		202-748-8000 for Democrats to call in.
		Republicans, 202748-8001.
		Independents, 202-748-8002.
		Take me to, as folks are calling in, the Senate battlefield right now and where that stands and how you'll be covering it this cycle.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so you got to watch Michigan.
		That's a big one.
		You know, Schumer and Senate Democrats did get a pretty, I would call it a decent victory in recruiting Sherrod Brown to get back in the arena.
		Now, the question there, and this is a bigger question for the Democrats for at large.
		He is very much of that Rust Belt union economic populist model.
		Not quite Bernie Sanders, but you've seen a lot of energy for that among the Democratic base.
		And broadly speaking, there's a number of dynamics you need to watch here.
		Ohio is going to be tough.
		Same thing for Iowa.
		We just saw that Joni Ernst is retiring.
		Sounds like Ashley.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Expected retirement announcement coming this week, we're hearing, right?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Thursday?
		Yeah.
		So, you know, potentially Iowa, I don't know.
		I talked about that on the show last week.
		I don't know.
		It's like a blue swing.
		I'm not sure how much you can read into that special election for that state Senate seat up in Northwest Iowa that just happened.
		But you got to watch.
		So here's my handy guide here.
		Minnesota, pretty interesting.
		New Hampshire, Georgia's a big one.
		It's a tough map overall for the Democrats.
		They're playing a lot of defense right now.
		Not a lot of pickup opportunities.
		53, 47.
		And even if you're able to swing three seats out of that, you still have to deal with the tiebreaker from Vance.
		So for serious control, you need to do four seats.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So more seats need to come on the board for Democrats to have a chance.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		You can't really.
		So here's all right.
		So, you know, where can you start to actually go into the, where can you eat into it down here?
		Maybe Iowa, Maine could be interesting if they're able to recruit Janet Mills, the governor, who's done a really good job.
		She had a lot of play at the beginning of the administration taking on Trump.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Was there that famous scene where there are all the governors in the room and he calls her out specifically?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I mean, there's a push and pull for the governors right now, looking down the road to 2028.
		Janet Mills is not so bad.
		I don't hear her name as a prospect for the Democratic nomination.
		But for all of them, the governors, their ability to control their states and to stay on the map, in many ways, it reminds me of the inverse of where the Republican governors were about 16 years ago, where you had people, well, like Mike Pence.
		You also had people like Scott Walker.
		You had Chris Christie.
		Even at one point, John Kasich was being seriously talked about.
		And it was a really deep bench of talent who were able to use their states to fight back then as fighting Obama.
		And they did a very good job of it.
		But going back to the Senate map here, if they are able to recruit Janet Mills against Susan Collins, I think they might have a good shot there.
		She's had a tough time of it recently.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		On Democratic governors that are better positioned here than others.
		Obviously, Gavin Newsom's name and media spotlight is probably the biggest right now on that level.
		But who else?
		Is it the Wes Moores, the Gretchen Whitmers, who else?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Whitmore gets a lot of play.
		Moore's very interesting.
		You know, I got my start covering Maryland politics back when it was super interesting that Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley, then later governor, was considered a national prospect.
		That was unique in Maryland politics.
		But recently, we've had just a string of folks who really understand how to punch above the weight for Maryland politics onto the national stage.
		Larry Hogan, of course, he's been teasing he might try to run again, which would be super interesting.
		Moore is very good at the performative nature of modern politics.
		I remember him shotgunning a beer with some of the Ravens players.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I remember him doing a workout with the University of Maryland football team as well.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		For these Maryland governors, though, is it simply by proximity to D.C. and that giant spotlight?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's fascinating.
		It used to be that the proximity to D.C. and the spotlight detracted from Maryland politics.
		I'm not sure how much that is the case.
		You know, Moore is a different creature.
		He is very, he did not come up in Maryland politics.
		He's more of a national star.
		He gets the social media, the influencer style of modern politics.
		So the question now for him is, will that translate?
		And I think there is a lane for that.
		As we watch these races this year between on one side, you look at Mom Donnie in New York and you see the Bernie Sanders, Democratic Socialist, progressive wing for New York, and that plays very well there.
		But then, you know, just across the river, just across the Potomac, Abigail Spanberger running as moderate, former CIA.
		And I would note only narrowly in most of the polling, not a ton.
		As it stands right now, most of the current polling does not look like a major blue wave for Spanberger, at least, in the governor's race down there.
		And that's, I mean, that's just at the doorstep.
		It's just two months from now.
		Six seven-point leads going into this thing.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Unexpected for that first election after a party, a power switch in Washington, D.C., these races viewed as sort of the initial reaction to the new administration.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		I mean, if you look at, I think it's Jack, I'm going to mess up his name, and as a good Italian, Chattarelli up in the Republican running up in New Jersey, running a pretty close race up there.
		Winsom Earl Sears, the lieutenant governor, the Republican nominee in Virginia, a lot closer, despite having just one of the most chaotic campaigns.
		I mean, her relationship with her running mate, John Reed, conservative talk show, is just incredibly bizarre.
		You know, they tried to get him out of there.
		Glenn Young can tried to push him out.
		And for all of that, and then couple that with what's most pressing on most voters' minds, which is what's happening in the White House.
		I mean, you have a huge federal workforce out in Virginia, tons of layoffs.
		Now, you know, to the extent any of those are upheld in court, just tons of it.
		Here we are on Labor Day.
		To the extent any of those firings still hold, how much does that resonate?
		And the fact that it's not, I would expect to see with the opposition party, the out-of-power party in a place like Virginia impacted by this.
		I'm surprised that you're not seeing her leading with double-digit points right now.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		If you want to shoot the breeze on politics, Tom Lobianco, a good guy to do it with.
		He's with us for about another 10 minutes or so this morning.
		Phone lines for Democrats, Republicans, and Independents.
		It's 24-site news is where you can find his work and his colleagues.
		The Tom Lobianco report is what you can listen to there.
		What's up next for the Tom Lobianco report?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		So this week we're going to be talking about, we'll be talking about the special election down in Virginia, teeing that up.
		Congress returns.
		I'll be talking with Julie Grace about that.
		Also looking at, this is really interesting, you know, the negotiations or lack of negotiations continue between Putin and Zelensky.
		Something very interesting which has been going on, which is these kidnappings of Ukrainian children, and they take them out to Russia and they brainwash them.
		And you've seen this a lot already in Donbas, the Eastern Crimea.
		You have generational effects.
		So we're going to be looking at that as well this week.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		International domestic politics, they cover it all at 24-site news.
		Clown on X writes in, isn't the military in the streets of the United States a big story?
		How soon is martial law coming to states and cities?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		So you'd have to invoke the, I believe you'd have to invoke the Insurrection Act for that.
		That is a, there's a balancing act here.
		I was actually talking with a friend who's in D.C. city government about this a couple days ago.
		And the thing with Trump you always have to look at, which is how much is it performative versus how much of it is a real violation of Constitution, violations of democratic norms.
		Unfortunately, that is a standard part of this administration now, taking the Justice Department back under the wing of the president directly.
		That is a new, that is a feature of this administration.
		Now, there's 30 days for the National Guard in D.C.
		We have to see what happens at the end of that 30-day window.
		It's coming up pretty soon.
		We have to see these talking about threatening Chicago.
		We have to see, we just have to keep watching, unfortunately.
		Is that a possibility?
		Yes.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What the viewers are watching, what they were watching just a second ago, is the live shot of Union Station, the military vehicles backparked in front of Union Station with the National Guard's members there.
		That's been the scene these past couple weeks here in Washington, D.C. Another question from one of our viewers on X writing about the 2026 election.
		How can the Democrats not lose seats in the 2026 elections is what they write.
		The Democrats seem to be against doing anything to significantly lower crime.
		They want open borders.
		They want us dependent on the rest of the world for necessary goods.
		What would you say to the viewer?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's interesting.
		Go back to the last midterms, 2022.
		And Democrats did very well despite having the White House.
		Typically, the out-of-power party does better.
		And they did very well in 2022 on the strength of women voters post-Dobbs, those first elections post-Dobbs.
		There was a sort of a, if you look at some of the 2024 autopsies that have been done, there was a false confidence instilled there, which created a blindness among the top Democrats, certainly in the Biden and Harris campaign, in terms of who would show up.
		There's two general dynamics we look at in these midterm elections is lower turnout.
		It's not a presidential, so you don't get the presidential voters.
		So it's not as clear that you're going to have a lot of the lower income folks, the more blue-collar folks, certainly in some of the Rust Belt states who were first-time voters for Trump this last time around.
		You tend to get more higher educated, regular voters, which would seem to benefit Democrats this time around.
		And the other part of that, too, is the party that's out of power is more energized.
		They're hungrier.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that's the case right now if you look at Democrats and Republicans eight months into a second Trump administration?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		It is.
		And I keep coming back to this Democratic Tea Party concept, because if you remember back 16 years ago, when the big Tea Party wave crashed here, the Republican Tea Party wave, one of the first things that the conservative Tea Party groups, activists, whatnot, they came after was the establishment of Republicans.
		That was their big target at the outset.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The rhinos, as they call them.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		You see a lot of that in these town halls around the country right now.
		You see a lot of anger out there.
		I mean, I was watching one month ago with a suburban Indianapolis, Victoria Sparts.
		It's the 5th District of Indiana.
		And these were not, it was not, you know, it was not Black Lives Matter activists.
		It was not, you know, people wearing, you know, punk regalia.
		This was soccer moms there yelling at her in suburban Indiana.
		Okay.
		And I think that to me is a leading indicator of where the energy is.
		Now, the flip side of that is, can the White House tamp down access to voting, which they're trying to do right now?
		Trump is talking about this executive order on ballot voting right now.
		Can they rig things with the gerrymandering the maps in the states where they control?
		It's going to be tight.
		And then there's another longer-term dynamic, which is you lose seats that are in play over the years.
		So it's harder to have big wave elections.
		You go back all the way back to the 90s with the Gingrich Revolution, 94.
		A lot of those were old legacy Democratic seats, which flipped 20 years after Nixon and the Southern strategy.
		So over time, you lose what's in play.
		I think it's going to be very tight.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me take some calls.
		This is Ann in Charlotte, North Carolina, Democrat.
		Happy Labor Day to you.
		You're on with Tom Lobianco.
unidentified		Hi, John.
		Hi, Tom.
		I was noticing all the lists of the cities that are faced with having the guards come into their cities.
		And I never see Charlotte on the list.
		And I wondered, what is the criteria?
		We're sort of a Democratic city here.
		We have a fair share of crime, but not overwhelmed with it.
		But why is Charlotte never on the list?
		And thank you, John.
		Thank you.
		Bye.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Great question.
unidentified		Okay.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		See, at the outset, I would say it's political.
		You know, what the White House is targeting are Democratic-controlled cities, major urban centers.
		All right, Chicago, the deployments in Los Angeles and California, now here in D.C.
		Now, they say it's not political, but you have to watch the actions.
		I mean, this comes, you know, what, about a week or two after they raided John Bolton's house.
		So would it help in a place like Charlotte?
		You know, possibly.
		And that's the other part of this.
		I was thinking back to the person who wrote in asking about martial law.
		There is, on the one hand, there's sort of a public service aspect of this, which is having additional help in the streets, which frankly is to supplement cuts to local, hundreds of millions of dollars in cuts that were made by the White House to local policing.
		We have to see that.
		And that is the argument a lot of Democrats are making right now: okay, why aren't you doing this equally?
		So it does appear very much political.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Go to Larry in Linwood, Washington Independent.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Larry, thanks for waiting.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
		I've been trying to, I've been watching C-SPAN since like 1986 or when it first started, and it's the first time I've ever been able to get through.
		And I would, you know, want to respond just to the basics of what the conversation is about.
		You know, we're comparing the Tea Party to what's going on right now.
		And it's, to me, that's totally disingenuous because the Tea Party was more grassroots where this, what's going on now is just an extreme segment of society is getting a lot of attention.
		And it's like, you know, we got the youth vote, you know, romancing socialism, Marxism, and all that.
		But I still think that's a minority, I hope.
		And anyway, I would like to get a response on that.
		And then, but I just, you know, I feel that where we're going right now is awesome.
		It's the first time in my life that I voted every election.
		I think Trump's the greatest president right now.
		He's using a lot of common sense.
		You know, give him a chance.
		And anyway, thank you for taking my call, and I'd like to hear what you have to say.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tom LaBianco.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's funny, that's the argument that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats used to make 16 years ago against the Republican Tea Party, Conservative Tea Party.
		I mean, the reality is that it's a mixture of both.
		You do have Democratic groups out there organizing to get folks to these town halls.
		Absolutely.
		16 years ago, you had the Koch brothers pouring millions of dollars into these groups.
		And that's just true of any type of politicking that happens.
		Often what happens is you watch for where the energy is, and then you have the national political groups to, once they have money at least, will try to decide, all right, we're going to focus our efforts here.
		You know, I remember Americans for Prosperity, you know, back before they were persona non grata with Trump, was a huge national organizing group for Republican Tea Partiers, and they'd go out and do trainings for folks.
		They'd show people how to run.
		And so it's not abnormal.
		And I would not discount the energy there.
		Again, watch who shows up to these things.
		Look at who's showing up and the questions they're asking about.
		Watch here on C-SPAN.
		I'll be watching it later.
		I'll have it on in the car.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, before you go, the million-dollar question, Jay Sanders asking you, again, 428 days out.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How many congressional seats do you anticipate will be competitive in 2026?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Your pool is like 30.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		On the House side?
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I mean, and it could get even tighter than that, depending upon how these it's a very, you know, we talk about 428 days out.
		It is an incredibly tight window for action because it's not just going for each one of these states.
		I talked about this last week in Indiana where I've done a lot of reporting.
		It's not just going back in and redrawing the maps.
		It is also dealing with potential court challenges.
		You have to hit filing deadlines in the states.
		You have to deal with primaries next year.
		So this is more immediate.
		You can see why the White House shifted so fast from the one big beautiful bill just a few months ago directly into this or in August because it's at the doorstep right now.
		If the new maps go through in additional places like Indiana, Missouri, Florida, it becomes a lot tighter.
		That pool is a lot smaller, but 30, 20, 30, something like that.
		It's very tight.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And all it takes is a net gain of three seats in the House to shift.
		So plenty to watch for, plenty of reason to stay on top of it all at 24site.news.
		You can find them on Substack.
		And Tom Lobianco is the editor of that new site.
		And we appreciate your time.
tom lobianco ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, John.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		About 20 minutes left here this Labor Day, and we'll end it by letting you lead the discussion.
		Any public policy, any political issue that you want to talk about, phone lines are yours.
		It's open forum.
		Democrats, Republicans, Independents, those numbers are on the screen.
		Go ahead and start calling in and we will get to your calls right after the break.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		So you interviewed the other night.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		I watched it about two o'clock in the morning.
unidentified		There was a little thing called C-SPAN, which I don't know how many people were watching.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Don't worry, you were in prime time too, but they happened to have a little rerun.
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Do you really think that we don't remember what just happened last week?
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Thank goodness for C-SPAN, and we all should review the tape.
unidentified		Everyone wonders when they're watching C-SPAN what the conversations are on the floor.
al green ▲ ● ▼		I'm about to read to you something that was published by C-SPAN.
sean duffy ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of things that Congress fights about that they disagree on.
al green ▲ ● ▼		We can all watch that on C-SPAN.
unidentified		Millions of people across the country tuned into C-SPAN.
		SPAY!
		That was a major C-SPAN moment.
		If you watch on C-SPAN, you're going to see me physically across the aisle every day, just trying to build relationships and try to understand their perspective and find common ground.
		And welcome forward to everybody watching at home.
		We know C-SPAN covers this live as well.
		We appreciate that.
		And one can only hope that he's able to watch C-SPAN on a black and white television set in his prison cell.
		This is being carried live by C-SPAN.
		It's being watched not only in this country, but it's being watched around the world right now.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Mike said before, I happened to listen to him.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		He was on C-SPAN 1.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		That's a big upgrade, right?
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		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		20 minutes left in our program today, and in that time, it is open forum, letting you lead the discussion.
		Any public policy, any political issue that you want to talk about this Labor Day?
		Now's the time to call in.
		Democrats 202-748-8000.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		Independents 202-748-8002.
		As you're calling in, just a reminder, when our program does end at 10 a.m. Eastern, stay with C-SPAN.
		It's today's Congressional Town Hall Marathon all day today airing town halls that have taken place over the last several weeks as part of the August recess.
		You can watch live here on C-SPAN.
		You can also tune in to c-span.org and you can pick the town hall that you want to watch if you go there.
		So I hope you stay with us throughout the day, this Labor Day, and hope you call in in this 20 minutes of open forum.
		We'll begin in the Keystone State.
		This is Nancy on our line for Democrats.
		Nancy, good morning.
		What's on your mind?
unidentified		Hi.
		I am calling because I have figured out a way that I think we can measure if Donald Trump is making America great again.
		I went to Google AI and I asked Google AI what was the year that the workers had the highest share of gross domestic products.
		And Google AI said that in 1980, the workers' share of GDP was 67%.
		Then I asked Google what was the most recent worker's share of gross domestic products.
		And they gave me a number in 2023 as 51.7%.
		So I think that that correlates with union membership.
		I think that as union membership went down, the worker's share of the gross domestic product also went down.
		And if we want to figure out if America is great again, we don't have to worry about being anti-immigrant, anti-trans, anti-Muslim.
		We need to be pro-worker and we need to get the workers' share of the gross domestic product get higher.
		Thank you for listening.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Nancy, I've got the numbers for you from 1983.
		I don't have 1980 on hand, but there are about 18 million union workers in this country in 1983, and that was 20% of the total workforce.
		Today, the percentage of the workforce that are unionized, just about 10%, it was 14.3 million workers, close to 4 million union members less in the year 2024.
		Those are the latest number from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
		You can see their chart over time at their website.
		This is John in Colonial Beach, Virginia, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Jeremy.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's on your mind?
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, good.
		I'm glad you asked us to open forum.
		I haven't talked to you in five years.
		The last time I talked to you was back.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		John, you with us?
		I hope it's not another five years, John.
		Try to give us a call back again.
		We'll get you back on.
		This is David in Canton, Ohio, Independent.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, John.
unidentified		Happy Labor Day to you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Same to you, David.
unidentified		Yeah, basically, the way I've what helps me organize my vision when I analyze the world is basically you've got two streets in the United States and most cities in the world.
		Really, you've got Main Street and Wall Street.
		Main Street is where the work gets done.
		That's where the working class lives.
		And then you've got Wall Street, where the money is siphoned.
		And I'm a Main Street patriot, not a Wall Street patriot.
		And Wall Street, to me, that represents human greed.
		So it's not just uniquely American.
		I mean, of course, Wall Street is uniquely American, but the concept of Wall Street, where the wealth is stored and accumulated, that's just about every country.
		So I think what we've got is we've got a president who represents Wall Street.
		And he's clever, he's a very smart guy.
		He's not going to come out and pull the wool out and say otherwise, but they say a tree is known by its fruit.
		So if you look at what he's done, he's dismantled the Consumer Protection Agency, fired workers, and he's going after the environment.
		And one of the best things I think America has is our wilderness system, our national parks.
		You know, of course, we've got development that has to occur, but development's already taken 90 to 95 percent of the land.
		Can't we leave the last few pristine areas?
		And he's about to dismantle some of the old-growth forests out in the Pacific Northwest.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		David, what's your favorite national park to visit?
unidentified		I would say at this time, well, Yosemite is not a national park, but the Smokies is more within reach for me.
		But I would love to go to Olympic National Park.
		But the park system, I mean, that's one of the things I love about America.
		I love the national park system, and I love some of the things we've done that were progressive at the time, like our Bill of Rights and our Constitution.
		I mean, that's what makes America great.
		I believe in free enterprise, but rules that protect the community.
		And I'll just give you a quick example, John.
		The Palestine, Ohio train derailment, that could have been prevented if we would have had more regulations that required thermal sensors along the railroad tracks.
		But another thing I wanted to tell you, too.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Well, David, I got your point.
		I got a lot of folks waiting in open forum.
		I appreciate the call.
unidentified		Thanks for letting me on.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Same to you, David.
		This is Annette in Albany, New York, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Annette and Albany, New York.
		And I am calling, my biggest concern is with education, what's happening, knowing that it's going to be uneven across the country based on wealth.
		In New York, for example, school districts are funded partially by local taxes as well as what comes from the state.
		Now, if you have an urban area that has very few people who are paying very low taxes, that means that the amount of money going into the school district is a lot less, and therefore the quality of the education is going to be a lot less.
		The concern is with the vouchers for people to go to private schools, charter schools.
		What happens too often is students go to those schools, and if they're not performing well, then they're sent back into the public system, which is least able to take care of their needs.
		So, my concern is with education and with the dissolution of the education department.
		What happens to the quality of education and the level of education in this country?
		That's very concerning to me.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Annette, do you have any kids or grandkids in school right now?
unidentified		No, but I'm working with kids who are tutoring children, and I see the effects of poor education system, what it means to them.
		Kids that are in elementary grades that are still at preschool level.
		And I live in an urban area, and an urban area that has a number of problems in terms of the resources that go into the education system.
		And I'm seeing what's happening when you have kids who go to charter schools.
		The charter school decides they're not up to par, so they send them back into the public system, which is already strapped.
		So, I don't have my own children, but I see other children and see what happens to them.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Annette in Albany.
		Let's head to New Jersey, the Garden State.
		This is Mark Independent.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		Thank you.
		On the subject of crime, all people, all people want to be safe because, and President Trump is popular because of common sense.
		When you, it's not rocket science, when you release dangerous criminals without bail, they go on to victimize innocent people, like, for example, in New Jersey, where the Democrat governor, Mr. Murphy, released a twice convicted violent criminal.
		This is just within the past three weeks.
		He went on to murder an innocent New Jersey mother and her 11-year-old daughter, released twice without bail.
		Okay, I mean, come on.
		You know, God bless President Trump.
		That's all I can say.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Mark in New Jersey to the Grand Canyon State.
		This is Janet, Independent.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		I think that the whole idea that Trump is doing a good thing is wrong.
		He has cast an evil shadow on the United States of America.
		And his followers are in denial about having a broken heart about this.
		The fact that he welcomed Putin on a red carpet up there in Alaska is proof of this.
		Putin knows everything there is to know about Trump and how to pull his strings, and he has him under his thumb.
		And I think we have to wake up and decide what to do about this following of this evil.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		It's Janet.
		This is Glenn, Carlsbad, California.
		Republican line.
unidentified		Go ahead.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Glenn, you're with us.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		I'm with you.
		Can you hear me?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yep, what's on your mind?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		It's open for him.
unidentified		Well, two things that Donald Trump has said several times starting November 2020.
		The first was that the election was stolen from him.
		He said that a zillion times.
		And he will never be able to get a governor or a state attorney general or anybody on any elections committee to admit that they did things deliberately wrong.
		The other thing that Trump has said, starting a few months after that election, was that if he were the president, Mr. Putin never would have invaded Ukraine.
		Shockingly, about two weeks ago in Alaska, Mr. Putin actually admitted that he invaded Ukraine because Mr. Trump was no longer the president.
		Mr. Putin obviously observed that the feeble president that we had was ignoring the southern border.
		Putin obviously figured if Biden doesn't give a damn about our own border, Biden wouldn't care at all about the border between Ukraine and Russia.
		Because we had the wrong president in the White House, about a million and a half people have died in that war over there because Donald Trump wasn't the president.
		It would be, therefore, a great idea for the amendment that limits presidents to two terms to be repealed so that President Trump can continue to get reelected every four years for the world to be a safer place.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What did you think of the money and arms that were sent to Ukraine during the Biden administration?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Did you support those efforts to fund and arm Ukraine and help them fight back against Russia?
unidentified		That war would not have, the arms that you're talking about would not have been necessary if Biden had not been the president and Trump was.
		So your point is kind of moot.
		We need Trump to get re-elected every four years.
		One more thing.
		The new robber barons in America are government employees with their ridiculous salaries starting at the city level with city manager, police chief, fire chief, half a million dollars for the city manager.
		Annual salary in Carlsbad, California.
		The new robber barons are government employees at every level of government.
		We need more January 6th events all over America on a regular basis.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean by that, Glenn?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Are you calling for violence?
unidentified		I'm saying that the lefties do a great job of going into the streets on a regular basis.
		Dirty water somewhere.
		Oh, we're going to go riot.
		They have learned lessons from that woman from Russia named Emma Goldman.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Glenn, you want more riots?
unidentified		No.
		No.
		Peaceful demonstrations is what I want.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Glenn.
		This is Anthony in Fort Pierce, Florida.
		Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		John John, man, we miss you.
		You've gone for almost a month, John John.
		So welcome back.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I've been here, Anthony.
		But what's on your mind?
		I've got about four minutes.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, John John, on my mind is I want to talk about the unions.
		I was a president for the FOP for about 11 years.
		But the gentleman you had on earlier, he was talking about the private, the local union president does have a lot of power.
		I was the chairman, and you do work the direction of the union.
		I was there during the shooting of the Navy Yard.
		I was the chairman, and the national they thought one way.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Anthony, you were FOP here in D.C.
unidentified		Yeah, right there in D.C., up the road from you all, man.
		And you really, like, even with this putting the federal office on the streets, man, it's not right.
		You know, the insurrection law, the comatos they law.
		You know, the local police have the authority to do what's necessary.
		And the chairman, these unions should be fighting against what's going on.
		You got like 40 police agencies in DC.
		You got, man, the housing authority.
		You got the U.S. Park.
		You got all these authorities.
		You got the national, the District of Columbia.
		So you got enough agencies to help with the crime and everything in D.C. Anthony.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So it's your sense as former FOP chair here in DC, you don't think unions are doing enough to fight back.
		And I ask that because Eric Loomis in today's New York Times has a column saying Trump is wiping out unions.
		So why are they so quiet?
		The labor movement needs to act like its future is under grave threat.
		That's the headline and the cutline with the column today.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		So you got District 4, which was part of District 4.
		You got that there right there in D.C. You got the Capitol Police.
		You got all these different unions that can stand up and stand for the civilian law enforcement officers to do their job.
		The District of Police Department has so much support because you got these MOUs that's there of other officers that can support.
		Even us, we support right there by the Raymond building off of Douglas 295.
		So you got all these people that can support the district when they need help.
		And then the district supports the federal properties.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Anthony, running short on time, but appreciate the call this morning, Anthony, our last caller in today's Washington Journal.
		But we'll, of course, be back here tomorrow morning.
		It is 7 a.m. Eastern, 4 a.m. Pacific.
		In the meantime, hope you have a great Labor Day holiday.
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		Members of Congress are back on Capitol Hill tomorrow to resume legislative business after spending the last month in their home states.
		Up next on C-SPAN, a marathon of congressional town halls that took place over the August recess.
		First, we'll show a joint town hall with Senator Angela Also Brooks and Representative April McLean Delaney at Hood College in Frederick, Maryland.
		Then, Republican Representative Josh Burkeen speaking to constituents in Pryor, Oklahoma.
		And later, we hear from Democratic Senator Ron Wyden at a town hall in Astoria, Oregon.

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