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will allow voters to decide whether to redraw the state's congressional maps to benefit Democrats, which will be on the ballot in November. | |
| The move came after mid-cycle redistricting in Texas, which is likely to benefit Republicans. | ||
| Watch the discussion live from the Politico Summit at 7.40 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN. | ||
| C-SPAN now, our free mobile app, or online at c-span.org. | ||
| Joining us now to talk about U.S. bail systems and reforms is Liesel Pettis. | ||
| She is Criminal Justice and Civil Liberties Policy Director for R Street Institute. | ||
| Liesl, welcome to the program. | ||
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unidentified
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Thanks for having me. | |
| So first tell us about your background in criminal justice and how you came to this topic. | ||
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unidentified
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Sure. | |
| So I actually am a former prosecutor. | ||
| After being a prosecutor for several years, went on to run a nonprofit agency for victims of domestic and sexual violence. | ||
| Also did five years on my local city council and so took those different perspectives into how policy comes together in our criminal justice system and came to R Street. | ||
| Well let's talk about what President Trump did on Monday in the Oval Office. | ||
| He did sign orders aimed at ending cashless bail. | ||
| Let's listen to what he said and then we'll talk about it. | ||
| We run things like we run this. | ||
| We like clean, we like beautiful, and we like safe and that's what we're getting. | ||
| So I'll start signing the executive orders. | ||
| To me, there's a very, very big deal. | ||
| One of the executive orders has to do with cashless bail. | ||
| That was when the big crime in this country started. | ||
| And I can tell you who did it, when, but I don't want to do that because others followed pretty quickly. | ||
| But that was when it happened. | ||
| Somebody kills somebody, they go in, don't worry about it, no cash, come back in a couple of months, we'll give you a trial. | ||
| You never see the person again. | ||
| And I mean, they kill people and they get out. | ||
| Cashless bail. | ||
| They thought it was discriminatory to make people put up money because they just killed three people lying on a street. | ||
| Any street all over the country, cashless bail. | ||
| We're ending it, but we're starting by ending it in DC. | ||
| And that we have the right to do through federalization. | ||
| So let's talk about that, Liesel. | ||
| First of all, what is cashless bail? | ||
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unidentified
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Which is a great question because the term gets thrown around a lot. | |
| And not many people are familiar with what cash bail is, what the bail system even is, what cashless bail is. | ||
| But really, it's a system that pivots towards risk-based assessments to determine if somebody should get out. | ||
| So are they going to be a public safety risk? | ||
| Are they going to not show up for court? | ||
| That being the main consideration, rather than just giving a money amount for somebody to pay based upon their offense to get out. | ||
| So cash bail is that money amount that's assigned to an offense and people can pay to get out. | ||
| And a cashless bail system generally uses preventative detention, meaning somebody cannot pay at all to get out. | ||
| They are stuck in jail until their trial, or they're let out with conditions that are non-cash-based. | ||
| Now, the president said essentially you can kill people and then say, okay, come back later and they never come back again. | ||
| Is that what happens? | ||
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unidentified
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Well, I do want to just point out first that President Trump has hit on something that people are not immediately understanding is a big problem right now, which is there are many people in our communities that are feeling that more needs to be done around crime and homelessness. | |
| That is true. | ||
| A lot of people are seeing that they want more to be done. | ||
| The kind of part that goes astray is whether or not the bail system is responsible for people feeling unsafe. | ||
| You will hear from prosecutors and police officers that they get very frustrated with what they call kind of a revolving door into the system or a catch and release where people get picked up, get out again, commit another crime. | ||
| These are real issues to talk about and see about good solutions. | ||
| But when we're talking about murderers, almost across the board, but I will say there are some states that don't have an ability to hold murderers in, but a lot of those individuals are not getting out at all, even for a cash amount. | ||
| They are being held because they are a public safety risk. | ||
| It doesn't mean that in some places they may get out, but in the vast majority of circumstances, murderers are not being released from jail pretrial. | ||
| Now, you wrote an analysis at rstreet.org about two weeks ago. | ||
| You said why federal repeal of no cash bail laws would be unconstitutional and bad policy. | ||
| Explain both of those things. | ||
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unidentified
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Sure. | |
| So the 10th Amendment is our clearest kind of law talking about state rights, that it's really up to the states to be doing these, what we call kind of traditional policing powers, which would include how the criminal justice system deals with state crimes. | ||
| And it really would be hard to do anything as a mandate to states or municipalities requiring them to do something specific because of the 10th Amendment. | ||
| And that is such an important part for federalism, for the sovereignty of states. | ||
| And it seems clear that the president actually understands that that is a step too far that he cannot take. | ||
| Because in the executive orders, really what's being done is pulling on those kind of purse strings to determine whether or not they can use grant funds and funding power to get the outcomes that they're hoping for. | ||
| So the first one is more of the legal question. | ||
| Can the federal government tell states what to do? | ||
| And generally the answer is no. | ||
| Even their power to pull the purse strings is very limited by SCOTIS saying that things have to not be done in a punitive nature. | ||
| They need to have some sort of correlation with what you're actually trying to impose. | ||
| On the other side, the question is, is this even really the right solution? | ||
| So if we do think that people are feeling unsafe, if we do think that crime is not where it should be, that it needs to really come down and public safety is a priority, should we be messing with the bail system? | ||
| And the answer might be yes, but I will say that saying universally that cashless bail is the problem really is going to put us into a bad spot. | ||
| And specifically, I'd like to kind of point out places like Texas and Tennessee. | ||
| Both states just recently have expanded their preventive detention. | ||
| So again, that is where you cannot pay to get out. | ||
| You will be stuck in because the courts have found that you are a public safety risk. | ||
| They have found that cash bail is not the appropriate tool to be using those cases. | ||
| They don't want people to get the chance to pay their way out at all. | ||
| They want them to be detained. | ||
| So when we're talking about removing these cash bail or cashless bail systems who have really started shifting to preventative detention versus conditions with release, we're actually allowing more people to get out because they can now pay versus saying no, they're going to be withheld regardless. | ||
| If you'd like to discuss with our guest, Lethal Pettis, the bail system and criminal justice reform, you can go ahead and start calling now. | ||
| Our lines are regional this time. | ||
| So if you're in the eastern or central time zones, it's 202-748-8000. | ||
| If you're in Mountain or Pacific, it's 202-748-8001. | ||
| Now, if you have any experience with the bail system, whether for yourself or a close family member or a friend, give us a call on a line which is 202-748-8002. | ||
| Of course, you can use our line for texting, which is 202-748-8003, or you can post to social media. | ||
| So, Liesl, what are the systems in place that determine bail? | ||
| And is it the same for everyone, or is it somewhat arbitrary depending on what judge you get? | ||
| Like if you're the severity of what you're accused of, or your previous convictions, or your previous experience with the criminal justice system? | ||
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unidentified
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So, all those things matter. | |
| First, what matters is what state you're in. | ||
| Every state has very different bail laws. | ||
| You have states like New York, who does not consider a dangerousness factor, which allows somebody to determine whether or not there are going to be a public safety risk to determine their release. | ||
| But most states do have a dangerousness factor, so each state is going to be different. | ||
| Within those states, there's going to be a difference between who can be detained with preventative detention and who can be released. | ||
| And then, if they are released, what conditions of release may exist? | ||
| And that could be cash. | ||
| The only state that has actually fully eliminated and abolished cash bail is Illinois, but you have other states like New Jersey who has functionally eliminated it because they do not really use it. | ||
| But even in those two states, the number of crimes that can be preventively detained versus required release are different. | ||
| But then, certainly, the judges you go before may change that determination too. | ||
| Some may really lean into conditions of release, such as ankle monitors, supervision, things of that nature, where others may think if I set a high cash bail amount, maybe that will keep them in, which is a very different consideration. | ||
| But all those are different. | ||
| And then we go even a layer further, and now we talk about bail bondsmen and whether or not bail bondsmen exist. | ||
| We're going to leave this to take you to Sacramento, where California Governor Gavin Newsom is speaking at a Politico with a memo about Democratic redistricting efforts. | ||
| So, thank everybody. | ||
| You're watching live coverage on C-SPAN. |