CSPAN - Washington Journal 08/05/2025

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Aug. 5, 2025 06:59-10:00 - CSPAN

03:00:55

Washington Journal 08/05/2025

Participants

Main

mimi geerges

cspan 31:37

Appearances

dustin burrows

04:21

greg abbot

01:39

hakeem jeffries

rep/d 01:24

kathy hochul

01:53

larry sabato

02:48

mike flood

rep/r 01:12

Clips

al green

rep/d 00:04

barack obama

d 00:02

bill clinton

d 00:02

donald j trump

admin 00:17

gen douglas macarthur

00:12

george h w bush

r 00:02

george w bush

r 00:04

jb pritzker

d 00:21

jimmy carter

d 00:03

patty murray

sen/d 00:08

ronald reagan

r 00:01

sean duffy

admin 00:04

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
		We're funded by these television companies and more, including Buckeye Broadband.
		Buckeye Broadband supports C-SPAN as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy.
		Coming up on C-SPAN's Washington Journal, we'll take your calls and comments live.
		Then, Semaphore politics reporter David Weigel discusses the latest in the Texas GOP's efforts to redraw the political map in the state to try and add more Republican seats in Congress and how blue state governors are responding.
		And the director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics, Larry Sabado, discusses the center's new book, Campaign of Chaos, about the 2024 election and the current political landscape ahead of the midterms.
		Also, Josh Smith, energy policy lead at the Abundance Institute, discusses President Trump's AI action plan and the technology's impact on the energy sector.
		Washington Journal is next.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		It's Tuesday, August 5th.
		Over 50 Texas Democrats left the state on Sunday to keep the legislature from having a quorum to vote on new congressional maps.
		Those maps, backed by President Trump, would create as many as five more GOP-leaning U.S. House districts, which could keep the majority in Republican control.
		Yesterday, Texas Governor Abbott said he had ordered state police to find and arrest Democratic lawmakers after the state House issued civil arrest warrants, though state law enforcement is restricted to making arrests in Texas.
		This morning, we're taking your comments on that story.
		Here's how to reach us.
		Republicans, 202-748-8001.
		Democrats, 202-748-8000.
unidentified		And Independents, 202-748-8002.
unidentified		We've got a line set aside for Texas residents.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So if you're in Texas, call us on 202-748-8003.
		That's the same line you can use to text us.
		If you do include your first name in your city-state, and you can post your comments on social media, facebook.com slash C-SPAN and X at C-SPANWJ.
		Welcome to today's Washington Journal.
		We'll start with an article on USA Today that is headlined, quote, We Are at War.
		Texas redistricting plan sparks wider fight over Congress and the Trump legacy.
		The Trump-inspired plan aimed at redrawing Texas's congressional maps has thrust the nation into a gerrymander war with massive implications.
		Well, as you're calling in, we're going to talk to a reporter.
		This is David Weigel, politics reporter for Semaphore.
		Dave, welcome to the program.
unidentified		It's good to be here.
unidentified		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So just remind us about what's going on in Texas and how we got to this point.
unidentified		Yes, we could probably start with Republicans' moves over the last couple of weeks.
		So Texas, like every other state, drew new maps in 2021 after the census.
		The Supreme Court had determined 20 years ago that states, starting with Texas, can redraw their maps mid-decade.
		But the Trump administration wanted Texas to draw new maps.
		Started that process by having the DOJ send a letter to Texas saying we have civil rights issues or voting rights issues, I should say, with some of your seats, claiming that there might be problems with the racial breakdown of some of the minority, majority districts, which has not been litigated in that way.
		It was a shot across the bowel that was encouraging Texas to draw new maps.
		And then the president, this is the unprecedented part, started to lobby Texas outright to say, draw five seats that Republicans can win so it's harder for us to lose the House.
		And Republicans acted.
		The governor has the ability to call special sessions whenever he wants because Texas normally has a short once a year legislative session.
		Abbott was going to call a session to deal with the aftermath of flooding, of deadly flooding in the state.
		And he pushed to the front of the agenda the special session, drawing new maps.
		And very quickly, with only a couple of days of input, the state Republicans produced new maps that would do what Trump says.
		It would delete several seats that were drawn for non-white voters, which meant they were going for Democrats around Dallas-Fort Worth, around Houston, around Austin, and in the Rio Grande Valley, the southern part of the state, deleting them and replacing them with seats that voted for Donald Trump by at least 10 points last year.
		And that's when Democrats made this decision to flee and delay the maps scattering across a couple of states and advancing the message that you were just talking about.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean, them leaving the state and denying a quorum is temporary.
		I mean, they're going to eventually have to come back.
		So, what happens when they do?
		First of all, there's an arrest warrant for them.
		Do they get arrested as soon as they come back to Texas?
unidentified		The precedent for this, again, starts with the first mid-decade redistricting 2023, when Texas Republicans drew themselves more seats.
		Although at that point, it was changing a map that had been drawn to benefit Democrats, not their own map to benefit themselves again.
		It's pressure on Democrats, the financial pressure, the $500 a day fine, has proven to be more powerful than the threat of Texas Marshals arresting them because that's why they leave the state.
		And there are Republicans in Austin who are frustrated that they did not move quicker on these new maps because they expected Democrats who were hinting at this to leave.
		And Texas Marshals cannot leave Texas, cannot go to Illinois and New York and round people up on civil warrants.
		They just don't have that ability.
		So what in the past has broken these protests is time, is inertia, is that fee is a public backlash.
		And so Democrats are also being threatened by Greg Abbott with potential felonies if they take donations, which they're asking for.
		They have a donation portal to pay that $500 fee.
		That has not been tested either.
		And so you have right now, I don't like to use the word unprecedented too much, but you have several tests of whether a law can be enforced in Texas.
		And you have several tests of whether the public is going to side with people who are doing something that they didn't say they were going to do at the start of the year.
		And in the Texas Democrats case, something that is technically not allowed by the rules.
		Abbott has threatened also to vacate their seats and to hold special elections.
		Now, if that happens, then there are just a handful of Democrats in Austin who have not left the state.
		They would be the rump of a tiny minority while there are special elections later in the year to replace these Democrats.
		That has not been tried before.
		That is really the break glass option for Republicans.
		But everything else has usually ground down their will.
		And the difference is in 2021, Texas Democrats left the state because they were trying to stop a voting reform that was, among other things, rolling back some expansive voting rights that Democrats in the big cities were using for mail voting, et cetera.
		And this time it is very explicit.
		We are going to get rid of five of your colleagues in the House if they come back.
		There is some solidarity between the state legislators in Austin and their Democratic colleagues, some of them who were state legislators.
		That it is quite personal what they are doing.
		And the impediments are the fines, which they can pay, but might get penalized for because they're taking donations, or losing their jobs.
		And that's one of the tests here.
		How many of these Democrats are willing to literally lose their jobs, which would result in the map getting passed anyway, which would really more be a symbol of what they're fighting for and a cry to Democrats across the country to act than something that can slow the map down.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So let's talk about the wider implications because blue state governors are saying that, well, if you guys do that, we're going to redraw our maps and favor Democrats.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So what's happening on that front?
unidentified		Yes, this started with Kevin Newsman, California.
		California has since 2010 independent commissions that redraw maps.
		And Republicans have complained that commission, the way the Democrats operate on it, has ended up giving Democrats a huge advantage in the state.
		That's true.
		It's a 60-40 state.
		The Democrats have more than 60% of the House seats.
		And they've won some of them very, very narrowly.
		Trying to hundreds of votes.
		But Newsom started saying this partly to lobby Texas into maybe not obeying Trump, not doing this.
		But then he went further and is trying to get on the ballot in November very quickly.
		And this is a risk he's taking.
		It could backfire, it could fail.
		It could show that California has no way to do this.
		Newsom is going to ask voters to get rid of their independent commissions on the premise that Republicans are trying to steal, as he puts it, the House of Representatives with this gerrymander in Texas.
		In New York, Kathy Hochl, she has more limits because there's no total independent commission in New York, but there are anti-gerrymandering rules that voters have approved over time and Democrats have approved.
		She is saying that she would favor any means necessary to draw more favorable maps for Democrats, which she tried already.
		And in New York, Hochl as governor tried to approve a set of maps that would have given Democrats more seats in 2021.
		The state Supreme Court ruled for Republicans and struck it down.
		A new map was drawn.
		But since then, Hochul has appointed a different judge to the state Supreme Court.
		And Democrats are quite confident that if they found a way to draw these maps again, it would again involve this Rube Goldberg machine of special sessions, lawsuits, et cetera, et cetera, that she is willing to draw more seats out of existence.
		And that's how Republicans have been matched by Democrats with Democrats who rhetorically say they're going to do whatever it takes, but don't have the same power as Texas, which can just on a whim, Governor snaps his fingers, draw these maps.
		And there can be lawsuits.
		There will be in Texas if this happens, lawsuits about the Voting Rights Act and the idea that the state is wiping out seats drawn to elect Hispanic and black members of Congress.
		The question there is whether this current conservative Supreme Court would take that as an incentive to say, yes, we're going to strike that part of the Voting Rights Act down.
		Is under John Roberts been very willing to rule from a place of colorblindness, racial colorblindness, that all of the provisions in the Voting Rights Act designed to protect non-white voters with special districts or with special voting laws or with free clearance from DOJ, it's been striking those down.
		So Republicans are much more confident that if this goes a few more steps, they're going to win.
		Democrats are rhetorically saying we're willing to go all those steps.
		They clearly have fewer tools.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So besides Texas, obviously is the big one, New York, California.
		Are there other states, Dave, that we should be watching?
		Anything going to be happening in other states?
unidentified		Well, for Republicans, it's worth watching Missouri, where a block of Republicans in Jefferson City had wanted to get rid of a seat around Kansas City.
		And this is basically what Tennessee Republicans did in Nashville.
		Nashville used to have a Democratic congressman, a bigger city than Kansas City.
		And Republicans drew a map in 2021 that split the city of Nashville.
		So there's now three Republicans representing it, no Democrats.
		They're trying to do the same with Kansas City.
		In Indiana, Northwest Indiana has a historically Democratic district that has been moving towards Republicans, but been electing a Democrat narrowly.
		And there was pressure on Governor Brown in Indiana to act on that and to get rid of that district, leave Democrats maybe with one district in Indianapolis, or they could be more aggressive.
		It's hard to say when the session starts.
		Those are the first places that Democrats are looking.
		They would add to that Florida, where Ron DeSantis already drew a very favorable map for Republicans.
		Would he go back and try to draw out more seats because Republicans gained ground in 2024?
		Get rid of historically Democratic seats in Palm Beach County around Orlando.
		That's also possible.
		And for Democrats, they have less room to move.
		In Maryland, and my colleague Burgess Everett and I talked to some Democrats last week and Republicans about this.
		In Maryland, there's a seven-to-one Democratic map that's very favorable to their party.
		It's put Republican voters in charge of one district, which Andy Harris represents on the Eastern Shore.
		And there are Democrats saying we should go hold a special session, get rid of that district, gerrymander the state to eliminate it.
		In New Jersey, there's a constitutional limit.
		There is a desire to do that.
		In Virginia, there are limits, but this is becoming a conversation in the race for governor.
		But the way I've set it up, I'm explaining Democrats have fewer states with clear rules that they can manipulate to draw new districts than Republicans do.
		Republicans, and both sides are really say, are really doing a, I have to do, the argument is I have to do this in a response.
		Both sides are saying, well, if Texas moves, California moves.
		If California moves, Indiana should move.
		If New York moves, then Missouri should move.
		They're both justifying this on a response to the other party.
		And they're both fairly confident that voters, when they show up in November next year, one, they'll be in districts that are drawn to elect a certain number of members of one party.
		And two, that there is not much of a, there's a down, not much of a long-term downside from doing this.
		I'd add Ohio is maybe the best example of this.
		Republicans run Ohio.
		There was a ballot initiative that Democrats backed last year that would have banned gerrymandering in the state and created independent commission.
		Republicans get to write the ballot language in Ohio because they have attorney general's office.
		Same thing for Democrats in California.
		They wrote very confusing ballot language that made it sound like the measure was going to force gerrymandering on the state and it failed.
		And because of this, Republicans have the ability to redraw Ohio if they want.
		What they might do there is get rid of two seats That Democrats have been able to win outside Toledo and kind of the Akron area and get put Democrats in just two or three seats that they can win and add the current five.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dave Weigel, politics reporter for Semaphore.
		You can find his work at semaphore.com.
		Thanks a lot, Dave, for joining us today.
unidentified		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And we are going to be taking your calls.
		Just want to let you know about a program coming up at 1:30 p.m. with one of those Texas state representatives, James Tallarico.
		He'll be at the Center for American Progress for a discussion about religion and politics.
		He is one of the Democrats that left the state to delay a vote on new congressional district maps.
		That is live at 1:30 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN, also on the app C-SPANNOW and online c-span.org.
		Let's go to the calls now to Alexander, Brooklyn, New York.
		Democrat, good morning.
		Alexander.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for bringing up this topic.
		It was really informative.
		But I have to go back all the way after Obama won in 2008 when Republicans realized that they just didn't have the popular vote anymore and they put together a red map, which was the redistricting strategy that they implemented in 2010's midterm elections.
		This is nothing new.
		Republicans have tried to break states from within.
		Pennsylvania is a good example.
		Even though Democrats had a huge majority, Republicans controlled what, like 13 out of 18 seats.
		North Carolina is another state, and now they have the help of the Supreme Court.
		And so even before Trump got into office, this was already a strategy.
		And now they just have accelerated it.
		And now they just don't even care.
		They want to basically rig the election for a better outcome.
		And what I will say, and this is harsh, and this is basically speaking to the whole C-SPAN audience.
		The way this country is going and the way MAGA and Republicans are going, I understand Democrats have a great deal of flaws, but at this rate, this country doesn't deserve a democracy.
		It really doesn't.
		You know, you have people like Abbott, you have an administration that showed a specific pattern of corruption saying that they wanted a certain amount of votes in Georgia.
		Then they went now and they want to just steal seats so that they can keep a majority because the bill that Trump passed isn't popular.
		So I am completely just, you know, yeah, I'm just completely turned off by how politics is running in this country.
		And if Republicans win, good luck.
		Just keep destroying this democracy until we all leave or we just decide we're going to accept some kind of autocratic state.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Alexander.
		And we are taking your calls about that situation going on in Texas and also how it might impact the rest of the country.
		You can give us a call.
		The numbers are on your screen.
		Republicans are on 202748-8001.
		Democrats 202-748-8000.
		And Independents 202-748-8002.
		Our line for Texas residents is 202-748-8003.
		That's also the number for texting us.
		You can also reach us on facebook.com/slash C-SPAN and X at C-SPANWJ.
		While you're doing that, Texas House Speaker, Republican Dustin Burroughs was on the House floor of Texas yesterday calling for the civil arrests of Democrats who had left the state.
unidentified		And here he is talking about that.
dustin burrows ▲ ● ▼		The roll has been called and a quorum has not been established.
		Let me begin by commending the members who did show up.
		Those who answered the call, honored their oath, and came here ready to work for the people of Texas.
		Your presence speaks volumes.
		You understand that the issues before us, disaster recovery, fighting for the families who lost loved ones in the floods, human trafficking and more, are not abstract policy debates.
		They are real-world problems demanding immediate solutions.
		But instead of confronting those challenges, some of our colleagues have fled the state in their duty.
		They've left the state, abandoned their posts, and turned their backs on the constituents they swore to represent.
		They've shirked their responsibilities under the direction and pressure of out-of-state politicians and activists who don't know the first thing about what's right for Texas.
		To be absolutely clear, leaving the state does not stop this House from doing its work.
		It only delays it.
		And every day this chamber is unable to act, the cost grows.
		In response to this dereliction of duty and pursuant to the rules of the House, I am prepared to recognize a motion to place a call on the House and any other motions necessary to compel the return of absent members.
		Should such a motion prevail, I will immediately sign the warrants for the civil arrest of the members who have said they will not be here.
		As Speaker, I will do everything in my power to establish quorum and move this body forward by any and all means available to this office.
		To those who are absent, return now.
		Show the courage to face the issues you were elected to solve.
		Come back and fulfill your duty because this House will not sit quietly while you obstruct the work of the people.
		The people of Texas are watching, and so is the nation.
		And if you choose to continue down this road, you should know there will be consequences.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		By the way, right after that, the motion did pass in the Texas House to issue arrest warrants for Democrats who fled out of the state.
		Let's hear from a Texas resident.
		Here's Beth in Austin, Texas.
		Good morning, Beth.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		I am currently on vacation in Pennsylvania visiting family.
		And I want to tell you, I'm spitting mad.
		I'm a Democrat.
		I live in Cheryl Cole's district.
		And when I get home, the very first thing I'm doing is I'm changing my party.
		I am so sick of this toddler behavior from the Democratic Party.
		You know, let's shove everything down your throat.
		Let's fight for other countries.
		We've got Democrats that are holding the flags of other countries, but they swore an oath to America.
		We are Americans first.
		And I'm going to tell you, I'm going to do everything in my power when I get home.
		And you might find my name on the ballot.
		So, y'all, look for Beth Washington Sanchez because I might just go ahead and primary her.
		I'm done.
		Done with the Democratic Party.
		I'm all in with the Republicans.
		Their policies are working.
		America, it's working.
		Stop it.
		Too much division.
		The American Eagle ad is great.
		I'm going to go buy a couple pairs.
		I'm done.
		Again, thank you for taking my call.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Beth.
		Any years?
		Another perspective from Texas, this time in Dallas.
		David, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, thanks for taking my call.
		I live in District 32, which right now Julie Johnson is my representative.
		And this new map basically eliminates District 32.
		Years ago, we had Pete Sessions, and he was defeated by Colin Already.
		And, you know, we have been electing Democrats in this district for years.
		And if they go ahead with this, I feel like my vote means nothing now.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And as far as, like, your neighbors in Dallas, what are they thinking?
unidentified		I mean, you do have— They're thinking a lot the same thing, too.
		I mean, you know, we're such a minority now in the state.
		We have school vouchers now.
		We're going to subsidize the rich with $10,000 per child for private schools.
		Yet in my district, statewide, they're getting like, for public schools, only $8,300 per student.
		And it just goes on and on and on.
		It's like Texas becoming so right-winged.
		It's disheartening.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here's Tom, a Republican in Raleigh, North Carolina.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Tom.
unidentified		Come on in.
		I disagree with those senators and congresspeople leaving to go to Illinois and other states.
		Look, we pay them to represent us.
		Just because you disagree with one issue or the other, you're just going to run away from it?
		No.
		So hopefully the governor will double define instead of $500 a day, make it $1,000 a day and make them pay that because, you know, people have questions, people have issues that they want to call their representative.
		Now they can't get a hold of because they're in another state.
		So just because you disagree with what the other party has, even if it was Republican, I'd call them out too.
		You still need to stay there and get the business done.
		And I appreciate you taking my call.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Tom.
		And here is a portion of a press conference yesterday with Governor J.B. Prince Ger.
		This is Texas House Democratic Caucus Chair Gene Wu.
		He spoke to reporters explaining why he and other Democrats left the state.
unidentified		We're not here to have fun.
		We're not here because this is easy.
		And we did not make the decision to come here today.
		We did not make a decision lightly.
		But we come here today with absolute moral clarity that this is the absolutely the right thing to do to protect the people of the state of Texas.
		For the last few weeks, Texas families have been burying their loved ones who were killed in the very preventable tragedy that occurred in central Texas.
		Over 100 Texans died, many of them very young souls.
		And all Texans across the state have asked for is that the legislature focus and spend its time taking care of the families who are grieving and helping the communities who are recovering to accomplish their goals.
		Instead, Governor Abbott has used this tragedy, Taken these families who are grieving, taking these communities who are struggling to recover, and use them as hostages in a political game.
		It's been two weeks.
		They don't even have a bill filed to deal with what they promised to deal with.
		And instead, they have spent their entire time playing dirty political games that only help themselves.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here is a text we got from Rob in Huntington, West Virginia.
		He says, in recent years, in an effort to make voter districts more representative of voters, many blue states have done the right thing by setting up independent commissions to determine districts.
		In contrast, the morally and ethically bankrupt Republicans will beg, borrow, cheat, and steal to force their philosophy on the electorate.
		Well, Rob brings up independent commissions.
		Take a look at this map right here of the United States showing congressional redistricting after the 2020 census.
		Here is who controls the redistricting in states.
		The red is Republican control.
		Blue is Democratic control.
		Green is split.
		And you can see here this yellow color are under commissions.
		So you see California here, for instance, Arizona, Virginia, those are under the control of independent commissions.
		Here's New Jersey.
		So if you'd like to see where your state falls in that.
		Jason, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Democrat.
unidentified		Yeah, Mr. Jason, which I think Texas do not have a right to do what they're doing.
		It should be up to the people and not people in Congress.
		And Republicans need to shap down and do their damn job the right way and stop listening to the idiot Donald Trump.
		That's all I got to say.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		In Austin, Texas, Andrea, you're on the air.
unidentified		You're in full control.
		Hi, I'm also a Texan.
		I'm an independent and a Texan.
		I just want everyone to hear the hypocrisy in the Republicans.
		Aren't they supposed to be Christians?
		It's so, it's so frustrating.
		It's so frustrating to hear ignorant people, ignorant people.
		They don't work for everybody.
		They work for their people that vote for them.
		So someone called and said, they work for us, we pay them.
		No, you don't.
		The people who voted for them paid them.
		And the people who voted for them are thankful that they are leaving because they do not want them to stuff their votes down the drain.
		Do y'all not understand what's going on?
		And don't be surprised if everyone else behind me from Texas is for the Republicans.
		Why?
		Because this is a racist ass state.
		And they're not Christians.
		Everything they do is not, they're not Christians.
		Jesus warned us about wolves and sheep's clothing.
		He spoke that to the Pharisees.
		And that's what the Republicans are.
		They're wolves in sheep's clothing.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Andrea.
		And let's hear from Governor Greg Abbott of Texas.
		He was on Fox News defending the redistricting maps.
greg abbot ▲ ● ▼		For redistricting purposes, it's not done for racial reasons.
		However, the racial outcome is this, and that is the district lines will solidify the Barbara Jordan African American district in the Houston area, and it will add four new Hispanic districts.
		And so there's actually going to be more racial minority districts in the state of Texas.
		Why now?
		Two reasons.
		One is since we last did redistricting, there's been a change in law.
		A court decision affecting Texas came out and said that coalition districts are no longer required, and it's perfectly legal to dismantle coalition districts.
		The second is gerrymandering can be done or drawing lines can be done on the basis of political makeup, as in Republican versus Democrat, and there's nothing illegal about that.
		And then when you look at the outcome of the most recent presidential election, all these districts that are being added are districts that were won by Trump.
		Here's the point of that.
		These voters in these districts won by Trump, they don't have the ability to vote for their candidate of choice now because they're in congressional districts.
		They're in a Democrat district as opposed to a district won by Trump.
		And so we have the authority legally under redistricting law to draw districts that align with the voter preferences of the voters of the state of Texas.
		And Donald Trump proved in these Hispanic created districts that Hispanics, as well as other people in those districts, they want to vote Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And this is Mike in Hillsboro, North Carolina, who says, arrest all the Democrats that refuse to do their jobs.
		They will feel at home in jail.
		And Robin Huntington, West Virginia, Donnie in Louisville, Kentucky, who says, I just want C-SPAN and other citizens of the United States to understand that this is done by all states.
		Obama had California, New York, and others do redistricting, which also lost Senator Brown's district.
		But running off to another state is not the answer.
		The congressmen took an oath of office, and their job is to vote on things we like and things we don't like.
		They need to lose their seats in office by not voting one way or the other.
		Let's talk to John in District Heights, Maryland, Democrat.
		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Good morning to you, ma'am.
		I'm 81 years old.
		I've been watching this stuff for the last 50, 60 years, better.
		And this whole thing is strictly anytime you mess with the Voting Rights Act of African American people, it comes down to one thing.
		Donald Trump is a cold-blooded bigot.
		And anybody who follows what he asked them to do have the same state of mind that he has.
		Everything the man has done so far is to hurt people.
		You can't find one thing that man has done to help anybody.
		Everything he has done has been cruel.
		There's no love, no compassion, no kindness, no goodness, and nothing he has done.
		And for these governors, I mean, for this governor down in Texas to sit there and justify what this bigot wants to do because he wants to keep the Republican party, because he wants to make America great again, because you got these so-called good white Christians wanting him to bring back their customs and their traditions, which is white supremacy, which is evil.
		So the whole thing is not a political situation, like the lady said a few minutes ago.
		This is a spiritual issue here.
		But you don't find nobody talking about the spiritual aspect of this thing with going on in this nation today.
		Coming from that White House, you have demonic, a demonic spirit coming out of that White House that's covering this nation.
		And it's so sad to see this.
		I heard this man pray yesterday, and I was listening to the person of the House.
		And he had the nerve to end his prayer in Jesus' name, like he know who Jesus Christ is.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		This whole thing is.
		Here's Edward in Jersey City, New Jersey, Independent Line.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Good morning, Miss Mimi.
		I called in a month ago.
		If you recall, you were working on July 4th.
		I got all tongue-tied.
		I wasn't even able to get it all out.
		But anyway, thank you.
		I totally disagree with what the Trump administration is doing right now.
		It's frightening.
		It's concerning.
		It definitely is because it's like stealing, you know, my right to choose my leadership and, in a sense, have the law reflected, you know, in how I feel.
		And so there are other issues too, because here in New Jersey, we're like a Democrat state, but establishment Democrats steal, you know, the vote and the voice from the people too.
		You know, with party line politics throughout the state, so there's issues even within the party.
		But I'm happy that the Democrats did leave.
		What else were they going to do?
		You know, so I'm pleased.
		I'm not sure where this is going, where this is all going, but I disagree with the Republican governor and just thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Edward.
		And here is Deb in Berryville, Virginia, Republican line.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Mimi.
		That's all I hear from the Democrat Party.
		It's wine, wine, wine.
		They forget what they do and stuff.
		It's all right for them to do so, but when the Republicans do, they want to cry about it.
		They need to take a good, long look at their own party and all the things that they have done.
		Every day you see Chuck Schumer up there.
		Wine, wine, wine.
		And they're the worst.
		They're evil.
		That's all I have to say.
		Thank you.
		Let's take a look at New York Governor Kathy Hochul.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		She welcomed some of the Texas lawmakers to her state.
unidentified		Here's a portion: these are profiles and courage sitting with me here today.
kathy hochul ▲ ● ▼		They left their homes, left their families, left their loved ones in a world of uncertainty.
		But our history is defined by people who are brave patriots, who will not accept the status quo, who believe they must use their voices and their positions to stand up for others.
		I could not be prouder to have an opportunity to meet them, each and every one of them, and hear their personal stories.
		And I thank them so much for making this journey.
		You are on the right side of history.
		And you're not alone.
unidentified		Thank you.
kathy hochul ▲ ● ▼		We are in solidarity with each and every one of you and your colleagues in another state, hosted by my great friend J.B. Pritzker.
		Welcome you as well.
		As I said, history will judge us and how we respond to this moment.
		But here in New York, we will not stand on the sidelines with the timid souls on the sidelines who don't care, will not invest their heart and soul into this battle.
		This is a war.
		We are at war.
		And that's why the gloves are off, and I say, bring it on.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here's Nancy, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, Democrat.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Mimi.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		This is so much.
		It really is a lot to take in.
		Project 2025 is alive and well.
		This is a spiritual war.
		I just want to remind Republicans: the Democrats are the only party that have ever done anything for people of color and the poor and forgotten.
		Democrats created policies and legislation to combat poverty and homelessness.
		So I say all of you, to all of you, this is to let Republicans know whoever supports Trump and his policies are conspirators to a felon, liar, racist, insurrectionist, and a pedophile.
		There's nothing else you can say about this administration that has done anything to help people.
		Our grocery bills are still high.
		I have no idea what the Republican Party stands for.
		I really am embarrassed and ashamed of this country at this time.
		People of color, shame on you.
		They are breaking, they are bringing us back to a time where we just didn't have anything.
		We didn't have anything.
		And right now, all I can say is God help us and God bless America because this right here, this party, I don't even know where it's going to take us.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Nancy.
		And here's Bradley in Texas.
		Hi, Bradley.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, C-SPAN.
		I just like to make the comment that the Democratic Party, I'm from the 24th district in Texas, outside of Fort Worth, and they just, their repugnance can be.
		All the Democrats seem to want to do is stop Trump at all costs.
		Chuck Schumer demonstrates it.
		The Democratic Party demonstrates it.
		It's on a daily basis of just attack Trump everywhere on everything.
		And it takes us nowhere.
		And I don't know what their plan is, but right now, it just looks like they're just having a meltdown.
		And I don't know that they'll be around come next year.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Bradley, I want to ask you, listen to what I think it's Jorf in Skippers, Virginia.
		He said this on text.
		I don't like gerrymandering as I think the end result will be Democrats moving out of Texas and Republicans moving out of California and New York.
		District lines should use area codes, county lines, or zip codes to draw lines.
		What do you think of that?
		What do you think of just using zip codes?
unidentified		Well, I really don't have a thought on it.
		But the Democrats have been doing this for so long.
		It's nothing new.
		And that's the whole point.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So do you think that's a good question?
		So do you think gerrymandering is okay?
		Like this texter said that he doesn't like gerrymandering at all.
		What's your thought on that?
unidentified		I don't like it at all either.
		I really don't.
		I think it's disgusting in a lot of ways.
		I don't agree with it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's Jill in Grayson, Kentucky, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Is that me?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Is it Jill?
unidentified		I just want to say, ain't it amazing to watch that bunch of Democrats squirm, twist, with all their lies, saying Trump's done more just a few months than mine done in four years.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Jerry in Maine, line for Democrats.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes.
		The lady from Texas that's on vacation can't wait to go back to Texas and change from a Democrat to a Republican.
		And the gentleman from Maryland couldn't have put it any better.
		So now let's go back.
		I'm going back to that lady.
		The reason why the Democrats have run, because you look at that map that the lady on C-SPAN showed, and that's what Mr. Trump wants.
		So put his picture right in front and look at him.
		Have a nice day.
		Thank you.
		Here's Kevin is in San Antonio, Texas.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Kevin.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		You know, this should be a wake-up to all Americans, especially Democrats and independents.
		Republican politics is not popular.
		You know, if they've got to rig Texas, I mean, come on.
		You know, if they can't win Texas fair and square, which they know they can't, then they're resorting to cheating.
		And that's what they're doing, cheating.
		If we don't have no representative government, we all going to be in peril.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here's John in Brook Park, Ohio, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		I was just considering the fact that, okay, they have a lot more folks, Republicans in Texas, and they wanted to redraw their line.
		If they're talking about doing that, then our national election should go by popular vote instead of electoral vote, because then you have more people voting for the president who are, if they're Democrats or Independents or whatever, whoever the majority of people vote for should then also be elected to that position.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So what's happening in Ohio, John?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Is there any talk of redrawing maps and redistricting?
unidentified		Not that I know of, but it just doesn't, to me, it should be by popular vote.
unidentified		And that way, if they're saying that it's fair to be popular in Texas, then it should be fair to be popular around the globe of the U.S. All right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And we are taking your calls on this topic for the next 15 minutes.
		If you'd like to give us a call, the numbers are Republicans.
		202-748-8001.
		It's 202-748-8000 for Democrats and 202748-8002 for Independents.
		Line for Texas residents is 202-748-8003.
		And let's hear a little bit more from Governor Kathy Hochul, who said that Democrats have no choice but to also explore redistricting in their states.
kathy hochul ▲ ● ▼		If Republicans are willing to rewrite these rules to give themselves an advantage, then they're leaving us no choice.
kathy hochul ▲ ● ▼		We must do the same.
unidentified		There's a phrase, you have to fight fire with fire.
kathy hochul ▲ ● ▼		That is a true statement of how we're feeling right now.
		As I've said, another overused but applicable phrase, all's fair in love and war.
		That's why I'm exploring with our leaders every option to redraw our state congressional lines as soon as possible.
		Our state legislative leaders, Carol Houston, Madrid leader Andre Stewart Cousins, they're on board, as are their members.
		We're already working on a legislative process, reviewing our legal strategies, and we'll do everything in our power to stop this brazen assault.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And take a look at this article from Axios, Democrats Go Nuclear in Redistricting Arms Race.
		It says that for many Democrats, this moment is an inflection point in the party's Trump-era identity crisis, one that can determine whether, quote, fighters or folders carry the torch into 2028.
		You just heard Governor Kathy Hope say this is war.
		We are at war, and that's why the gloves are off.
		And I say bring it on.
		Wonder what you think about that.
		Barbara, Philadelphia, line for Democrats.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I think gerrymandering is wrong in either party.
		And I think what's made this particularly difficult is that President Trump told them to do this mid-district.
		I think that's not a normal type of thing that the president would encourage a state to do this so that he could get more congressional districts.
		So I think that's really the rub here.
		Usually it's done when there's a census.
		Now it's midtime.
		But I really do think gerrymandering Democrat, Republican, it has undermined our democracy.
		And it's not a good thing.
		Thanks.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Doug, Illinois Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Doug.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		And thank you for taking my call.
		Of course, you know I'm from Illinois.
		Our governor J.B. Pritzker had the Texas people, you know, come here to Illinois.
		In the News Gazette newspaper, right when this started, okay, he called the Texas Republicans cheaters.
		Okay.
		Well, this guy here in Illinois has been gerrymandering Illinois for a number of years.
		I mean, I think it's up to 12 years now he's been doing this.
		And you hear Governor Holko and you hear Governor Newsom saying, oh, this is a threat to democracy.
		This is terrible.
		You know, we're going to do this.
		We're going to do that.
		Well, you know, unfortunately, this really started from a lot of the Democrat states from some time ago.
		It's been going on for a long, long time.
		Okay.
		But now, just because a Republican state is doing it, because they see these Democrat states doing it, now there's like fire.
		You know, it's just crazy.
		I mean, I mean, they are so out of touch.
		You know, it's see, here we go, hypocrisy.
		It's okay for them to do it, but it's not okay for the Republicans.
		And Republicans have been seeing what's been going on for a number of years.
		They decided to try it.
		Okay.
		Hey, you know, that's really all I got to say, but I mean, it's just crazy.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, Doug is from Illinois.
		Mentioned Governor Pritzker.
		Here is the governor in a press conference talking about that situation.
jb pritzker ▲ ● ▼		They're here in Illinois.
		We're going to do everything we can to protect every single one of them and make sure that, because we know they're doing the right thing.
		We know that they're following the law.
		It's Ken Paxton who doesn't follow the law.
		It's the leaders of Texas who are attempting not to follow the law.
		They're the ones that need to be held accountable.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And he mentioned Ken Pacton.
		That's the Attorney General of Texas.
		And JD Vance, the vice president, has put this on X.
		The gerrymander in California is outrageous.
		Of their 52 congressional districts, nine of them are Republican.
		That means 17% of their delegation is Republican.
		When Republicans regularly win 40% of the vote in that state, how can this possibly be allowed?
		And that was from July 30th last week.
		Let's talk to Becky.
		Leominster, Massachusetts, Republican.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		It's pronounced Leminster like there's no O there.
		But the reason that I called in is actually I'm calling from Massachusetts, the most gerrymandered state in the country.
		It is a Democratic state.
		We have absolutely no members of the Republican Party in Congress in Washington.
		They're all Democrats.
		They gerrymandered.
		The next town to me is in a totally different district.
		We share many things.
		We're in the same county, but we have to gerrymander it so that the Democrats can have all the people in Washington.
		Both our senators and all the congressmen are Democrats.
		So when you start saying, oh, you know, the Republicans are doing this and that, think about it.
		Live in a state where your vote hasn't counted for president or anything else in, I don't know, six years.
		So just wanted to let people know how it is to be in a state that you don't have any say.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And on the line for Democrats, Mike in New York.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		How do you pronounce that city, Mike?
unidentified		Cope.
		Copag, New York.
		Cope.
		Okay, go ahead.
		Thank you very much, Mimi.
		All right.
		Get rid of gerrymanding mandering.
		Get rid of Electoral College.
		And we won't have very many problems.
		One person, one vote.
		What's the problem with that?
		There's so much communication expertise going on now that we should be able to talk over our problems.
		Talk it out.
		That's all I have to say.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Mike, getting rid of gerrymandering, how do you draw the congressional districts then?
unidentified		You don't have to draw any districts.
		One person, one vote, Mimi.
		That's all.
		Just go to the vote and vote.
		That's all.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		But for Congress, how do you know what district you're in?
unidentified		Okay, all right.
		So if you're from Suffolk County and you want to vote for the Suffolk County executive, one person, one vote.
		Whoever wins that race wins.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So you want to do it by counties?
unidentified		Right.
		Or if you want to make them smaller, you can make them smaller, but it has to be one person, one vote.
		Everybody votes on it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Gilbert in Ohio, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Gilbert.
unidentified		Good morning.
		First of all, I'm in Ohio, and Ohio was one of the proving grounds for Republicans to gerrymander everything.
		Years back, I think it was about eight years ago, they gerrymandered Ohio.
		And if you look at HBO Dark Money, you will see what happened.
		Okay?
		First of all, we are not allowed to vote for Democrats.
		As an independent, I find this very upsetting because we don't have the right to vote for who we think would do a good job.
		Now, they got rid of two Democrats who were in Congress, and they replaced them with people who disobeyed the law.
		A judge told one Republican not to destroy records in which he was in a court case against.
		He was going to lose, so he destroyed all court records.
		The other one, the other representative, was in an illegal scam to scam money for electric companies.
		Now, we are paying the highest electric bills ever, and this is done by Republicans, okay?
		I can't understand what's going on in Texas, but I'm from Texas, and I know that a lot of open areas in Texas, not too many people.
		So if you want to make it legal, like Ohio tried to do, they had laws up to vote, and they took them down for fair elections.
		And they're restricting by independent counsel.
		Republicans voted that down.
		They didn't want to hear that.
		They want their gerrymanding to stand.
		Now, I don't know what's going on.
		This was several years ago.
		They took it to the state Supreme Court, and they're still defying the state Supreme Court.
		I don't know what to do about it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Gilbert.
		And this is Senator John Cornyn on X posted this yesterday.
		Let's take a walk down memory lane and revisit 2021, the last time Texas House Democrats fled the state, a $1.5 million journey complete with private jets and at least one case of Miller Light.
		Here is Clara in Tennessee, Republican line.
		Hello, Clara.
unidentified		Good morning.
		First of all, I think that non-citizens and illegals should be counted.
		I know that they're counted and that they're considered as far as redistricting and representation goes.
		And they should be counted, but it should only be so that resources can be distributed to help them out.
		Non-citizens should not be counted as far as our representation goes.
		That should only be for citizens of the United States.
		And then secondly, if you have a job, which a federal employee is a job, you shouldn't be allowed to walk off of it.
		I heard a gentleman, one of the gentlemen that left yesterday said that he couldn't live off of his salary and he had to have a second job.
		I'm sorry, but he should have known what that job paid before he took it.
		And isn't being a congressperson a full-time job?
		How can you give your full attention to what the needs of the country are if you have a second job?
		So that's what I have to say about it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Clara.
		Let's talk to Dave, San Diego Independent Line.
		Hi, Dave.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Yeah, Clara is absolutely right.
		This has been going on for years.
		Both parties do it.
		But I just want to remind everybody that our census is, you know, everybody's counted, and that determines representation.
		So U.S. citizens should be counted, not just counting everybody.
		That's a basic form of gerrymandering itself, you know, so she's right.
		And I just want everybody to remember that.
		But what's really disturbing is how the media, not necessarily C-SPAN, but just watching the media, how they're puppy dogs and just they're just buying into this and just swallowing it whole.
		And that's what's really disturbing.
		I find that really unbelievable.
		But I love C-SPAN.
		Thanks for letting me talk.
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Mike in Gonzalez, Texas.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What do you think, Mike?
unidentified		I just get amused at all these Democrats calling in there and whining about Trump and about redistricting and about gerrymandering.
		When you look at Illinois and California and all the other Democrat controlled territories, they gerrymandered all over the place.
		And they're bitching because we doing it.
		It's not good, but when they do it, it's fine.
		And seemed like something about Tammany Hall years ago in New York where the Democrats did all kind of stuff and all the gerrymandering.
		I just get tired of listening to them whine.
		We're not supposed to be calling about Trump.
		We're supposed to be calling about Texas redistricting.
		And people in our district have to flat.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mike.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And let's hear from Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries defending Democrats' plan to launch their own redistricting effort.
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		What Democrats will be doing in response is to make sure that there is one fair national map so that the people of this country will have the opportunity to make a decision in November of next year in deciding who should actually serve in the majority in the United States House of Representatives.
		We think that Republicans are scared to death that they are on the brink of losing the House of Representatives.
		This one big, ugly bill that they passed into law rips away health care from the American people, steals food from the mouths of children, hurts everyday Americans in order to reward their billionaire donors with massive tax breaks, and they've broken their fundamental promise to lower the high cost of living.
		Costs aren't going down in America.
		Costs are going up.
		Job creation is going down and unemployment is going up as Donald Trump and Republicans are crashing the economy in real time.
		We're not afraid as Democrats to make our case to the American people that we will lower the high cost of living.
		We will fix our broken health care system.
		We will clean up corruption so we can deliver a government that actually works for the American people and is not a government of the billionaires by the billionaires and for the billionaires.
		We're prepared to take that case directly to the American people.
		Republicans are trying to rig the congressional maps because they don't want to have this fight on the merits.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Greg and Johnson Junction City, Ohio, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, thanks for putting me on right after that nut job.
		You talk about lies.
		The hypocrisy in these Democrats is unbelievable.
		And my little black brothers and sisters out there, I'm a black man, so don't get mad.
		But you people are gone.
		The Democrats have got you hooked on and sinker.
		You guys need to get off that plantation.
		Have a good day.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Paula, Illinois, Independent Lion, good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
		Look, we have a census every 10 years.
		That determines the districting.
		My Texas doing this.
		We're only at five years after the census that took place in 2020.
		So that's what they talk about midterms.
		Now, I'm all for these Democrats that left because what they said was in the hearings.
		There were two debates on the flood that took place in Texas to help those people.
		There were eight debates for redistricting.
		And this is all because Trump told Abbott and then Ken Paxton to find me five more seats.
		This person would have representation in Texas.
		And those reps earn $600 a month.
		That's it.
		I am proud of Pritzker here in Illinois.
		And Illinois lost the seat to the Republicans the last time around.
		So I am all for these Democrats.
		And you want, and Abbott wants to arrest them for trying to represent the people?
		Give me a break.
		They're trying to help the people.
		Democrats help people.
		Republicans suppress them.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Paula in Illinois, and this is what Senator Tom Cotton said on X yesterday.
		He said, I would compare Illinois' gerrymandered congressional map to the scribblings of a small child, but that would be unfair to small children.
		It is rich that Texas Democrats have fled to these deeply Democratic states with terrible gerrymanders.
		And here is Eileen in Matthews, North Carolina.
		Oops.
		Sorry.
		Democrats.
		Yes, go ahead, Eileen.
unidentified		Eileen.
		Good morning, Mimi.
		I just wanted to say that whatever stuff's going on in Texas, I don't have anything against it, but it's just a distraction to me.
		I mean, just get to the important things that's going on in the country as far as like making sure things is being affordable for all families.
		But it's just a lot.
		Like, I look at the news every day.
		And I'm like, this is not making any sense.
		But I think it's just get to the real things that's going on in the country.
		I'm only 27 years old.
		I'm just like, come on now.
		This doesn't make any sense.
		Just make things, you know, healthy, safe.
		I don't have any problem with the Trump administration, but it's just things are being distracted.
		Like, just get to the good stuff, you know?
		That's all I have to say for today.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And later on this morning on the Washington Journal, we'll have a deep dive into the White House's recently announced AI action plan and the energy investments needed for it.
		That discussion with Josh Smith, energy lead at the think tank, the Abundance Institute.
		But first, after a break, more on the Texas redistricting fight and potential impact on the 2026 midterm elections with Larry Sabato, director of the University of Virginia's Center for Politics.
		We'll be right back.
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		Washington Journal continues.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back to Washington Journal.
		We're joined now by Larry Sabato.
		He is a Center for Politics Director at the University of Virginia and also author of the book called Campaign of Chaos: Trump, Biden-Harris, and the 2024 American Election.
		Larry, welcome back to the program.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		Amy, thank you so much.
unidentified		Great to be back.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Before we talk about your book, I want to ask you about what's happening in Texas and how we got to this point.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		The Republican governor has accused Democratic lawmakers of possibly committing felonies.
unidentified		Well, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm going to leave that to the lawyers in and out of Texas.
		But it's very simple how we got here.
		We got here because the House of Representatives is very closely divided.
		There's a critical election in 2026 and regular midterm elections, which will determine whether Democrats or Republicans control the House of Representatives for the final two years of President Trump's term.
		Now, naturally, he wants to see Republicans control the House of Representatives because they're likely, not certain, but likely to retain control of the Senate.
		He wants to have the whole Congress as he does now.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		He's able to command his people in the House and Senate to do pretty much what he wants.
unidentified		In order to do that, he has to find some extra seats because traditionally, and I think it probably will hold next year, probably will hold next year, that the out-of-power party will gain seats in the House of Representatives.
		Well, five seats in a closely divided House, which it is now and might well be after the next election, is a lot of seats.
		And the president said, President Trump, that is, said, I want those additional five seats.
		We control the governorship.
		We control both houses of the Texas legislature.
		And they've got five Democratic seats that we could carve up and turn into Republican seats.
		And so Governor Abbott, in Republican governor of Texas, said, good idea.
		Or maybe he thought it was a bad idea, but when the president calls you and says, do this, and you're in the president's party, and particularly with President Trump, you pretty much do what he says.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And that's what's happened.
unidentified		The Democrats have almost no power here except the power to deny a quorum.
		And even that, in some ways, is limited.
		We'll see how long this actually lasts.
		So I know that was a long answer, but it's also a short explanation of why things are happening as they're happening.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now, both parties have redrawn congressional districts for their advantage.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		How unique is the situation in Texas?
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		It's not unique, that's for sure.
unidentified		It's also not common because usually, you know, in the old days when I was growing up, this was shortly after Thomas Jefferson died, you only had redistricting once a decade after the census.
		And it was messy then and people got mad and some people were districted out of their seats.
		And it was never happy, but you only had it once a decade.
		So you got through it.
		People got over their injuries and their hurt feelings and we went on.
		Now, because partisanship is so intense and we are so terribly divided in this country, people are looking for every advantage.
		And that includes the power to redistrict in states that permit it to be done more than once a decade.
		That doesn't mean you have to do it more than once a decade, but if you have the ability to do it and you see a way to gain some extra seats, well, you might throw fair play out the window, or you might redefine fair play so that it includes population shifts that have occurred since the census.
		Take your pick.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		That's essentially what is happening here.
unidentified		It is, as I said, it is not unique, but it is uncommon.
		But I'm afraid, I really am afraid that this is going to become the new norm.
		And what's to stop states that have control where one party has control of the governorship and both houses of the legislature from redistricting and redistricting and redistricting every time they have the opportunity and they see a way to carve out a member of the opposition party.
		Fair play is important, Meany.
		It really is.
		Fair play is a fundamental in American democracy and the American Republic.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		When you say you're afraid that this becomes a new norm, what are you really afraid of?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What could happen?
unidentified		Well, as you get older, you're afraid of everything.
		But the reason I'm afraid of this is because we already have partisan feelings at fever pitch.
		And it does, this whole process causes hard feelings.
		It makes it more difficult for people to proceed legislatively in a bipartisan fashion, which occasionally is a good thing.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		You know, everything doesn't have to be partisan all the time.
unidentified		If you do this all the time, it simply means that people are going to be looking out for their partisan interests first.
		And if it serves the people, that's very secondary.
		It's almost a coincidence if it happens.
		We don't need any more intense partisanship.
		We need to cool our jets.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'd like to see.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So your analysis indicates that as far as congressional districts go, only 19 out of 435 districts are actually competitive.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Is that, how does that impact democracy, do you think?
unidentified		I think it's terrible.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I want to give full credit to my crystal ball team, Kyle Kondick and Jay Miles Coleman, who do a great job in analyzing all these districts constantly.
		They do this day and night.
		It's really a sickness.
unidentified		But I would say this.
		Here's why it's bad.
		The fact that you don't have more competition in politics means that in most cases, congressmen and women are elected in the primary.
		You know, it's like the old South.
		We used to call the Democratic primary tantamount to election because the general election didn't matter.
		Republicans were competitive in the South.
		Same was true in reverse in some of the Northeastern states, Vermont and New Hampshire and Maine and so on.
		That is not a good thing because who are the people who participate in primaries?
		They tend to be much more conservative on the Republican side, much more liberal on the Democratic side.
		So these members of Congress become more rigid and ideological because they don't want to be defeated in the primary.
		They know they can win a general election because there's no competition, but they worry about the primary.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		It makes them more extreme, which means it's more difficult to get any kind of bipartisan compromise.
unidentified		And, you know, we are all Americans, right?
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this is supposed to be one country.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I thought that was settled back in the 1860s, but sometimes I wonder.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		If you'd like to join our conversation, talk politics with Larry Sabato, you can do so.
		Call in now.
		Republicans are on 202-748-8001.
		Democrats are on 202-748-8000.
		And Independents, 202-748-8002.
		I want to talk about your book called Campaign of Chaos, and you call it the most exhausting campaign of our lives.
		But you also write this.
		You say, in our closely divided nation, there aren't any overwhelming presidential triumphs.
		But for the controversial Trump, this one came close.
		Explain that.
unidentified		Well, the Republicans won everything.
		First of all, Trump, as he frequently says, and he's right about this, he won all seven swing states.
		And that's a tragedy too, Mimi, that out of 50 states, we have seven swing states.
		We can call the election of 2028 right now in probably 40 states, maybe more than 40.
		So I think that's regrettable too.
		But seven swing states ahead of the election, most people thought that they would split them in some fashion.
		Obviously, one candidate was going to win.
		But in the end, Trump carried all of them.
		I think he carried them in a decisive enough fashion to keep the Republicans in control of the House of Representatives and help the Republicans to take over the U.S. Senate, though that may have been in the cards anyway, given the states that were actually on the ballot.
		So they won everything that mattered in the federal system.
		And they already have the Supreme Court.
		We no longer maintain the fiction that our nine justices are nonpartisan.
		They have a D or an R next to their name.
		And we all know it.
		Whether they want to admit it or not is another matter.
		So we have a very partisan, polarized government.
		Trump won it all.
		And therefore, he's been able to dictate pretty much what Congress does.
		And he certainly had the support in all the key cases that I'm thinking of from the Supreme Court.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		You also write this about former President Biden staying in the race.
		We've talked about this a lot on this program, staying in the race and kind of delaying his exit.
		But you write this.
		Perhaps they would have lost anyway.
		But if Biden had accepted reality and put the nation's needs ahead of his self-absorbed and unrealistic ambitions, Democrats at least could have had a normal primary process to test the strengths and weaknesses of various contenders.
		I know your crystal ball looks to the future, but if you could look into the past, what do you think would have happened if former President Biden would have dropped out early or would have announced very early on that he was not seeking a second term?
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and Mimi, remember, he said he was going to be a transitional president.
unidentified		Everyone in both parties interpreted that as, given my age, I'm going to serve one term and then pass the baton.
		Well, he didn't do that.
		Like many presidents, he, I'm not going to say he was addicted to power, but he liked the perks.
		And he thought at some level that he was the only Democrat who could win.
		They all think that.
		Nobody else can sit behind the Oval Office.
		Nobody else can be elected who's good.
		I'm already here.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I really should stay.
unidentified		Well, that was a fatal decision for Democrats.
		And of course, in retrospect, Democrats wish they had spoken up against this.
		And I'm just stunned to hear not just former President Biden, but also some of his key aides say ridiculous things like, he would have won.
		No, no, I got news for you.
		He would have done worse than Kamala Harris did, okay, except reality, because it's obvious to just about everybody.
		So he condemned his party in a way to this result.
		And Kamala Harris, as we know, had, what was it, 170 days?
		I think that's the title of her forthcoming book.
		And she's right to point that out.
		If there had been a normal process, you would have had what we normally have, a four-year-long campaign, even though you don't see it for a while, the invisible primary.
		You don't see it for a year, maybe a year and a half, and then boom, it's everywhere all the time, money raising and rallies and so on.
		And the partisans who vote in the primaries or caucuses that determine the nominee get a chance to get to know the candidates a bit, see the candidates a lot, test the candidates, see who does better, who doesn't do so well.
		And you tend to get a tougher nominee, a better nominee, somebody who's been grilled and who's been through, put through their paces early on.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Larry, do you think?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that it's because that she lost because she was a weak candidate or because she didn't have enough time?
unidentified		No, well, you can argue either way.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a combination.
		I don't think she was a weak candidate.
		She'd been vice president for four years.
unidentified		I think she would have been a much better candidate had she been through the process as the nominee apparent or one of the contenders.
		And there would have been challengers to her had Biden said early on, I'm going to keep my promise to be a transitional president.
		So I think it's unfair to say that she was a bad candidate.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		She was in some ways.
unidentified		And Trump was a bad candidate in some ways.
		All candidates are good in some ways and bad in others.
		But I think it really was the fact that this was a rushed process.
		And Biden had already damaged the party image.
		It was stunning.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I will never forget that debate.
unidentified		I mean, I just sat there with my eyes wide open and my jaw on the floor.
		And by the way, it was about 30 seconds in that I started getting emails from senior people saying, oh my God, how are we going to get rid of him?
		That's really what happened.
		And I've heard other people say the same thing.
		Other analysts say the same thing.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's talk to callers.
		Here's Bill in Bryan, Ohio Independent Line.
		Good morning.
		You're on with Larry Sabateau.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Good morning, Mr. Sabateau.
		Good morning.
		I don't know where to start, but just Republicans in general.
		I mean, you said something earlier about playing by the rules.
		Well, we know Donald Trump doesn't do that.
		Just his free drug prices, he says they're going to be free drugs or 1,000% off.
		If that's the case, then they're free.
		IVF, he's backing off that now.
		He promised that.
		He's the father of IVF.
		Kaczynski, why would you tell easily provable lies like that?
		I mean, his uncle did not teach.
		I'm sorry about that.
		Ted Kaczynski, his uncle died in 1985, and Kaczynski wasn't exposed until 1996.
		Why is he able to lie to these people so much?
		I just don't understand it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Larry Sabato.
unidentified		Look, it's a good question.
unidentified		There's a hat out there that I particularly like.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I've seen it everywhere.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And it simply says, make lying wrong again.
unidentified		And you could say it's a general societal problem.
		There's probably never been more lying in more sectors.
		But Donald Trump is an extreme example.
		He does tell so many untruths/slash lies, whatever you want to say, and gets away with it because, well, number one, his followers in MAGA have a filter of some sort that enables them to just slough it off and say, oh, well, that's just Trump.
		I happen to think presidential words matter.
		They really do.
		In history, they have anyway.
		And then if you're not careful about what you say and you don't try to be truthful, it's going to catch up with you eventually, though I'll admit it certainly hasn't caught up with Donald Trump, but it's not a good thing.
		I mean, do we want to teach young people that it's okay to lie and to lie a lot and to lie about important things, not just trivial things?
		I hope we all say no, but I wonder.
		So, you know, I agree with the gentleman about that.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		On the Republican line in Westchester, Ohio.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Deborah, you're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Good morning.
		As a side note, I'm a graduate of Randolph Macon in 1973, and I spent quite a few weeks over at UVA.
		I'll bet you did.
		I did.
		It was heavily male in those days.
		It hadn't been all male, but it started to include women, but not very many, unfortunately.
		Well, and I was at Randolph Macon was a woman's college, and it's now including men.
		Yes.
		So, but anyway, but our first Secretary of State, Thomas Jefferson, 1790, did the census.
		It was 16 states in the Southwest Territories.
		Our challenge is that our census no longer reflects citizenship.
		So it's difficult to get pure, you know, in terms of representation.
		I'm all for money being distributed by population, but representation in Congress should be citizenship, I think.
		I just finished reading a book about the 1787 Constitution, you know, with that convention.
		And I wish everybody would read our real history.
		Maybe someday I'll get to visit the Miller Center.
		I'm not sure.
		I haven't been back to EVA or Virginia in years, but anyway.
		So, but anyway, if, you know, you had 1.3 million people move into Texas.
		And, you know, unless you redistrict, you don't really, I'm not sure you really have representation.
		All right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Larry.
unidentified		Well, first of all, I want to tell her I'm glad she wants to visit the Miller Center, but first on her list should be the Center for Politics.
		And there's no bias there on my part at all, but you come first to the Center for Politics.
		And if you have extra time, you can go to the Miller Center or other centers here at UVA.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And I'm being facetious.
unidentified		Not really, actually.
		I think I mean that.
		But I'm delighted to hear from somebody from Randolph Macon and about my era.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		We're about the same age.
unidentified		Look, if you have to do more than one redistricting in a decade, okay, and I see your point about population changing quickly in some states, in other states, it's stable.
		But if population is changing quickly, if you have to do it, then maybe you have two redistrictings, one every five years.
		I don't think I'd want to go through it personally, but if you feel strongly about that, then that's one way to do it.
		As far as excluding non-citizens from the census or having them listed as non-citizens and then excluding them from congressional representation, you'd need a constitutional amendment for that.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And good luck.
unidentified		We are so divided.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And I hate to say this because I don't support this attitude, but we are so divided, we could not get a constitutional amendment passed and ratified saluting motherhood.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		You know it.
unidentified		You know we couldn't.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		We get into arguments about who's a mother.
unidentified		And I mean a real mother, not the other kind.
unidentified		So that's where we are, and we're all going to have to work at it if we ever can get back to a point where we can have heated debates, sincere principled debates, but then shake hands and go about our lives respecting the other person.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Larry, the NRCC chair, Richard Hudson, has discouraged GOP members from holding in-person town halls.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I want to show you a portion of Mike Flood's town hall from yesterday and then get your opinion on whether you think that's a good strategy.
unidentified		My question is, fiscal?
		With $450 million FEMA dollars being reallocated to open Alligator Alcatraz and $600 million taxpayer FEMA dollars being used to now open more concentration camps and ICE burning through $8.4 million a day to illegally detain people, how much does it cost for fascism?
		How much do the taxpayers have to pay for a fascist country?
mike flood ▲ ● ▼		Americans went to the polls in November and they had a choice between a democratic candidate that had an open border, no enforcement, fentanyl, drugs, human trafficking.
		And they had a choice between that and a candidate that said, close the border, get illegal immigrants out of our country.
		Stop the fentanyl.
		Stop the human trafficking.
		Stop the drugs.
		Stop the crime.
		Stop the violence.
		That's what Americans voted for.
		Americans voted for a border that is secure.
		And I support the president enforcing our immigration laws, which, by the way, were written by Congress.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, C-SPAN is covering Republican and Democratic town halls.
		You can see the schedule on our website, c-span.org, for upcoming town halls that we'll be covering.
		Larry, what do you make of that and the strategy of just not having in-person town halls?
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		Well, I admire and respect Congressman Flood for having a town hall.
		And that is part of representation.
		It really is.
unidentified		Now, you also have to take precautions in this violent era.
unidentified		Again, regrettably, I'm sure he had sufficient security there, but you need to do those sorts of things because we've all seen these terrible incidents unfold and the number of threats against members of both parties constantly flowing in have reached record numbers in modern times at least, thousands of them in every year.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		This is absolutely unacceptable and must be condemned by everybody.
unidentified		So I do support the fact that he had in-person town halls, and I think they all should do it.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		It's part of representation.
unidentified		And I live in a district where the member, I'm not going to mention his name, I don't believe is at a town hall.
		He has online town halls because that's perfectly safe.
		They can filter who says what and who gets a chance to speak.
		And I'm sure it's more comfortable for the representative.
		But I don't know that there's any guarantee in the Constitution or laws that a representative should feel comfortable.
		That's not part of our system.
		So I'm glad that you're covering them.
		I think people should watch them.
		You need to remember that people who are angry about something are much more likely to show up at town halls.
		Now, having said that, people who are angry are much more likely to show up at the polls.
		So if this is still going on, if this is still going on in the fall of 2026, it may tell us something about what's going to happen once the votes are tallied in November.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So what do you think about the midterm elections, or is it too early to tell?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what are the big issues at play here?
unidentified		It's way too, you know, I see people, oh, it's going to go this way.
		They're going to pick up 40 seats.
		The Republicans are going to keep control by 12.
		It is absolutely impossible to know what is going to happen all those months ahead when the votes are tallied.
		And we start voting at the end of September in some states, but the votes are tallied in early November 2026.
		Look how much happens in a day.
		Imagine how much can happen between now and then.
		So you do have history to rely on.
		The incumbent White House party tends to lose seats in the House, but it doesn't have to happen.
		It didn't happen in 1998 under Clinton.
		Democrats gained seats.
		It didn't happen in 2002 under George W. Bush.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		The Republicans gained seats in the House.
unidentified		So there are always exceptions.
		You can't be certain of anything in politics.
		You can predict things only if you have a crystal ball, though, of course.
		But you can predict things, and that's fun.
		It's part of the fun of politics, and I think it gets people involved.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		On the line for Democrats in New Jersey, here is Mitchell.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Mimi.
		Good morning, Professor Sabitow.
		Good morning.
		Here's my, you know, I'm in my late 60s.
		I've been following politics fairly closely most of my life.
		I think what's happened, what I'm seeing now in the Trump era, and it started before that, but is how weak our system is, how weak our guardrails are in protecting our system and how much was always, how much our system was always dependent upon the good faith of our representatives and doing what's right for the people.
		Now it just seems to be a power play.
		Having said that, a lot of the responses that the Democrats might take are legal, when they retain power back, are legal, but I don't know if they're necessarily advisable, like increasing the size of the Supreme Court, adding Washington, D.C. as a state, and Puerto Rico as a state.
		And when we talk about the redistricting, one of the other legal methods that could be done is increasing the representation size of the House.
		I mean, most of the House members, I believe, are serving close to three-quarters of a million people.
		You know, not that long ago, it was more like 500,000.
		So there's a numbers argument for that, too.
		But one thing it might do if they add more representatives is dilute the effect of the gerrymandering.
		And I'd like your opinion on that.
		Certainly.
		By the way, I have another book.
		It's the one you want to buy now is Campaign of Chaos about the 2024 election, Mimi.
		I know you agree with my mentioning it, but I did a book in the first decade of this century called A More Perfect Constitution, in which I proposed 23 changes to the Constitution, more as a way of starting debate and discussion, especially in the classroom about this.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And I included some of the ideas like expanding the House that you have just mentioned.
unidentified		So I agree with some of these ideas, though, people should debate them and think about them because it's always a good idea to think about the Constitution.
		But look, you said something very important right in the beginning.
		We don't just depend upon what's in the Constitution or what's in the rule book created by statutes passed by Congress and the state legislatures.
		As a country, we have depended heavily on tradition, respect for custom and tradition.
		And that is what is gone or going.
		You can argue about whether it's totally gone or whether it's going, but there is a disrespect for the ground rules of fair play.
		And it is hurting us badly.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And people need to look at that and think about it.
unidentified		Politicians are always going to do what maintains or increases their power.
unidentified		It's only the check provided by the electorate that may make them pay attention to custom and tradition.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		You see this in Congress all the time.
unidentified		Look at how things have deteriorated in some of the state legislatures as well and the presidency.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Susan in Massachusetts on the line for independence.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Savaro.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		You know, I live in a 100% cherrymandered state.
		And the downside of that is ramped corruption, candidates that run unopposed, literally with no opposition candidate from their own party, much less an opposite party or an independent candidate.
		All branches of government are in cahoots with each other.
		Policies are terrible.
		Mismanagement is rampant.
		Recently, the voters by ballot initiative voted for a state audit because to call the state legislature against thieves would be an understatement.
		And so we voted for this audit.
		And yet the governor, the attorney general, and certainly the legislature won't honor the voters' wishes.
		And so earlier, you made a comment about, oh, after every census, we redo districts and then we move on and everybody's at a happy place.
		Well, you're not at a happy place if you have no access to vote.
		If all primaries are party-based only.
		And what do you do if there isn't an opposite party in your state?
		So I could go on and on.
		For instance, our legislature a few years ago voted themselves annual auto raises of 12% annually without any permission from the voters.
		So it just let's get to our response.
		Yeah, I don't know if she announced what state she was from.
		I think I'm Massachusetts.
		Oh, Massachusetts.
		Okay.
		Well, then there is a state.
		I'm going to avoid talking about one particular state.
		But I'll tell you, let me, Massachusetts is a heavily Democratic state.
		I grew up in the one-party South, and it was also Democratic, but totally different than today's Democratic Party.
		And the Republicans were the party of reform and insurgency and so on.
		But I'll tell you what I learned because the Democrats, a very conservative, I hate to say it, segregationist Democratic party, won all the elections.
		And I learned early on by watching it carefully that two things result from one party control, one party dominance.
		The first thing is arrogance, arrogance.
		And the second thing is corruption, corruption.
		So arrogance and corruption.
		I don't care which part is the dominant party.
		That's another reason why competition is a good thing.
		Now, you said, what can I do?
		Well, you have to persuade your fellow citizens.
		You have to take the advantages given to you by the First Amendment and by the media today, which includes social media, not just traditional media.
		And traditional media is much more diverse than it used to be.
		You use those opportunities just like you've done.
		You've called C-SPAN.
		You've talked to, I don't know how many other Americans across the country, but you have made a case for something you think needs to be done.
		That's what we all have to do in discussion with others because other people have very valid points that may make you rethink some of your assertions or my assertions.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		On the Republican line in Dewey, Arizona, Steve, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I heard just a while ago about how you put down Trump as a liar and a lot of mega is bad and all that.
		And it prompted me to call.
		And the lies that really bother me is that the border was secure and that Biden was sharp as a tech and the Russian collusion and all that.
		Now, those are real lies.
		Those are really big lies.
		And the woman from Nebraska was complaining about concentration camps.
		When Obama was president, he was considered the deporter and the deporter, the chief, the deporter chief.
		And if you look at the photos, the people he deported were not the bad crime element people.
		They were just people who broke the law.
		And the photos show them on blankets and in cages.
		And where was the Democrat Party when all that was going on?
		You know, and he didn't have to deal with the 20 million Biden led into the country.
		So the real lies that are turning the country negatively are the lies that the Democrats have been telling us ever since Trump's been in office.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Larry.
unidentified		Well, I would put it this way: lying is endemic to politics, and it happens on both sides.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		Yes, if that's what you want me to say, of course it does.
unidentified		But there are degrees of lying, and there are numerical totals of lying.
		And not just focusing on Trump, but you're the one who brought him up.
		He told in his first term a record number of lies in four years.
		I mean, it numbered over, I believe, well, tens of thousands.
		I don't remember the exact number, but people who keep track of lies.
		And some of them are pure lies, some of them are about small things, but some of them are about large things, like he's just done with the Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers.
		Just absurd what he has asserted.
		You can say the numbers maybe aren't as accurate as they should be.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And what can we do to strengthen the process instead of maybe cutting the workforce there?
unidentified		Or you can say what he has said, which is it's all a partisan plot against me to make me look bad.
		No, no.
		That's a big lie, and it's going to have major consequences for whether we, the people, and people around the world in the business community trust the statistics being released by the government.
		I know I'm going to question everything that comes out of the Trump government about statistics that were once considered a nonpartisan section of government.
		Because if you give the president bad news, you're likely to get your head cut off.
		That is, you'll be fired.
		The messenger will be killed.
		So there are big lies and there are small lies.
		And I guess it's wrong to equate all of them.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I don't want to do that.
unidentified		But I'm sorry.
		There's never been a president who has told so many lies.
		And I think it's way too late to correct any of that at this point.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Roseanne in Wisconsin, Rapids, Wisconsin, Democrat.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Roseanne.
unidentified		Yes.
		Thank you for this exchange, Mr. Sabato.
		I don't know what, but I agree with you 100% when you say President Biden should not have ran for the second term because promises made should be promises kept.
		He said he would be a one-term president.
		And like you had said, that debate was just, oh my gosh, right?
		But the problem is with egos.
		Egos, when you get into these positions, where you think I'm right and everybody else is absolutely wrong, and I love all this power.
		And you can also go into Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
		She should have gotten out of there.
		She was very, very sick.
		Now, throughout history, is that going to be good for what she had espoused to be for in the beginning?
		And then in the end, when she obviously should have gotten out, she didn't.
		And then we had this thing happen with President Obama.
		And so her legacy cannot be considered as being really, really good.
		And even with Joe Biden, you know, the ego is there.
		The ego is involved.
		He should have gotten out.
		And Kamala Harris, the amount of time that she had to try to put anything together was just insane.
		And do you think, Mr. Sabato, that there should be an age limit as to what the president should be able to run for, like 65, 70 years old?
		Because as you know and I, that when we start to age, we start to lose our stuff.
		Thank you for taking my call.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		Very good question.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		It's like she knows me.
unidentified		Yes, age does take a toll, no question about that.
unidentified		And we all don't recognize it as fully as probably we should.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		And that was certainly true of Joe Biden and his immediate circle of aides and family.
unidentified		But look, I don't favor statutory and certainly not constitutional age limits, in part because life expectancy changes.
		We hope it always increases, and maybe it won't.
		But if 100 years from now, life expectancy is considerably longer than it is now and we're stuck, we're shackled to age limits that were put in the Constitution today, that would be a bad thing.
		I personally think we would be better off electing more presidents in their late 40s, in their 50s, and in their early 60s, because they're much more likely to be vigorous and healthy and strong and able to put up with the terrible stresses of the presidency, whether they're Democrats or Republicans or liberals or conservatives.
		I would favor that.
		But, you know, in the end, you can't save people from themselves.
		You just can't do it.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		If the electorate, if the citizenry of a country doesn't exercise good judgment and good sense, then frankly, sooner or later, a country is finished.
unidentified		And so we may rely too heavily on constitutional guardrails or statutory guardrails.
		And I also believe that for Congress.
		You know, if people want to keep reelecting people in their 80s and 90s, you know, that's their choice.
		I know seniority matters a lot.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Larry, we got a question for you from Paul in Cleveland, Ohio on text.
		What is Mr. Sabato's opinion on the DOJ asking the states for their voter registration information?
		And just by way of background on that, Larry, this is the AP Justice Department seeks voter and election information from at least 19 states.
		It says, for instance, in Colorado, the department demanded all records relating to the 2024 election and any records the state retained from the 2020 election.
		Do you know anything about that?
unidentified		I read that article and I've heard from other people about the demands from the federal government.
		Look, if there is legitimate suspicion of fraudulent activity or sloppy record keeping, that's one thing.
		Then you may need federal intervention, although I think the state itself or the courts in a state would be a better place to pursue those questions.
		If there is an ulterior motive here, though, to go through the data and to frankly invent fraud that doesn't exist or to find tiny examples of someone who was misregistered, shouldn't have been registered, and somehow blow that up into a condemnation of the entire system.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		I'm concerned about that.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		We already have a crisis of confidence in the country about our election system that I don't think is justified in the vast majority of cases.
unidentified		We have a very honest, well-run system, and it's a tragedy that certain candidates and office holders have stoked the fires of cynicism rather than supporting the system that we all have built over the years.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		It's so much better than when I started following politics in the 60s.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Larry Sabato.
		He is co-author of the book Campaign of Chaos, Trump, Biden, Harris, and the 2024 American Election.
		Also, director at the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia.
		Thanks so much for joining us today.
larry sabato ▲ ● ▼		It was fun, Mimi.
unidentified		Thank you very much, and thanks to the callers.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Coming up next, we'll be joined by Josh Smith, energy lead at the think tank The Abundance Institute.
		We'll talk about the White House's recently announced AI action plan and the energy investments needed for it.
		Stay with us.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		So you interviewed the other night.
unidentified		I watched it about two o'clock in the morning.
unidentified		There was a little thing called C-SPAN, which I don't know how many people were watching.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Don't worry, you were in prime time too, but they happened to have a little re-run.
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Do you really think that we don't remember what just happened last week?
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		Thank goodness for C-SPAN, and we all should review the tape.
unidentified		Everyone wonders when they're watching C-SPAN what the conversations are on the floor.
al green ▲ ● ▼		I'm about to read to you something that was published by C-SPAN.
sean duffy ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of things that Congress fights about that they disagree on.
unidentified		We can all watch that on C-SPAN.
		Millions of people across the country tuned into C-SPAN.
		Speaking!
		That was a major C-SPAN moment.
		If you watch on C-SPAN, you're going to see me physically across the aisle every day, just trying to build relationships and try to understand their perspective and find common ground.
		And welcome aboard to everybody watching at home.
		We know C-SPAN covers this a lot as well.
		We appreciate that.
		And one can only hope that he's able to watch C-SPAN on a black and white television set in his prison cell.
		This is being carried live by C-SPAN.
		It's being watched not only in this country, but it's being watched around the world right now.
		Mike said before, I happened to listen to him.
		He was on C-SPAN 1.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		That's a big upgrade, right?
gen douglas macarthur ▲ ● ▼		Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.
unidentified		Saturday, American History TV marks the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II.
		And throughout the day, we'll highlight the final stages of the war in the Pacific Theater and Japan's surrender on September 2nd, 1945.
		Starting at 10 a.m. Eastern with live coverage from the National World War II Museum's End of War Symposium, then Michael Bell, Executive Director of the Institute for the Study of War and Democracy at the Museum.
		We'll take your calls live on the final engagements of World War II and Japan's surrender.
		Then, former U.S. Navy Gunnery Officer Stephen Ellis and former U.S. Army Air Force B-24 Navigator Rolf Slan talk about their wartime experiences in the Pacific.
		And historian Garrett Graff on his book, The Devil Reach Toward the Sky on the Development and Use of the Atomic Bomb.
		Watch American History TV's special on the end of World War II 80th anniversary.
		Saturday, starting at 10 a.m. Eastern on American History TV on C-SPAN 2.
		And past president, why?
		Why are you doing this?
		This is outrageous.
		This is a kangaroo card.
		This fall, C-SPAN presents a rare moment of unity.
		Ceasefire, where the shouting stops and the conversation begins.
		Join Political Playbook Chief Correspondent and White House Bureau Chief Dasha Burns as host of Ceasefire, bringing two leaders from opposite sides of the aisle into a dialogue to find common ground.
		ceasefire this fall on the network that doesn't take sides only on c-span c-span shop.org is c-span's online store Browse through our latest collection of C-SPAN products, apparel, books, home decor, and accessories.
		There's something for every C-SPAN fan, and every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations.
		Shop now or anytime at c-spanshop.org.
		Washington Journal continues.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Joining us now to talk about the impact of artificial intelligence on the energy sector is Josh Smith.
		He's energy policy lead at the Abundance Institute.
		Welcome to the program.
unidentified		Thanks for having me, Mimi.
unidentified		Glad to be here.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So just talk about the Abundance Institute, your mission, and how you're funded.
unidentified		Yeah, of course.
		I'm Josh Smith.
		I'm the energy policy lead for the Abundance Institute.
		We are a mission-driven nonprofit that's interested in making sure that entrepreneurs and innovators have both the policy environment and the cultural environment to try new ideas, experiment, and innovate new products and services that eventually push forward human prosperity and flourishing.
		We're grateful to be funded by a variety of foundations and individuals which allow us to come on and do shows like this with you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's talk about the AI action plan that the administration announced recently.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Give us the high-level view first, if you would, about the action plan and why it was needed.
unidentified		Yeah, the action plan is needed for actually, they have one of my favorite quips about understanding problems in both the AI space and the energy space, which is very simple.
		Build, baby, build.
		We face a lot of artificial barriers to doing exactly that and simply that.
		And the AI action plan is a set of to-do lists, effectively, of try these things, get together with industry, find the things that are blocking you rolling out new technologies, and let's find ways to remove them.
		And very simply, I think that's the right way to answer concerns about building the energy supply needed to meet data centers.
		It's the answer to finding ways to bring electricity prices down for you and me as consumers.
		And so I'd say that captures the real meat of the report very simply.
		Build, baby, build.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, so let's put up the information on the infrastructure part of that AI action plan, and that's this.
		So there's going to be streamlining the permitting process, strengthening the power grid, developing high-security data centers, and revitalizing the semiconductor manufacturing.
		Let's break that down a little bit.
		If you could first talk a little bit about the streamlining the permitting process, what is the process now and why does it need to be streamlined?
unidentified		Yeah, it's a great question, Mimi.
		It's a fundamental one.
		In any context where you're using federal lands or even receiving federal funds, you have to go through the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA, very simply.
		And the way that I want all of your listeners to think about NEPA is that it is an indiscriminate killer.
		It has killed pipelines, it has killed solar farms, it has been used against offshore wind.
		It is a set of tools for people to stop development of all kinds, no matter the actual environmental effects of the development.
		And so if we want to leverage the wide federal estate that we have, you have to go through this NEPA process.
		On average, the NEPA process at the most intensive level takes about four years to complete.
		That's despite a statutory requirement that these environmental impact statements take two years.
		Two out of three reviews are actually late.
		They take longer than that.
		And on average, it takes four years.
		So that's a core reason to move forward.
		The categorical exemptions for data center infrastructure reflect, okay, we think we can establish these types of developments, shouldn't need to go through the full NEPA process.
		Let's streamline those applications.
		Let's make sure that they get done swiftly, quickly, and we don't hamstring our own development with a bunch of bureaucratic paperwork.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So why does the push for AI require so many data centers to be built?
unidentified		Yeah, I think people often underestimate just the extent that data centers undergird all of modern life.
		So the conversation we're having now is possible because I'm sitting here in Logan, Utah, and somewhere there's a data center processing the things I'm saying and feeding it all the way back out to DC to you and then out again to your listeners.
		If you think about just the amount of storage that has expanded across the system, every photo you take of your kids, every photo you take of your dinner plate or your coffee, whatever it is, and you post it on Instagram, that ends up stored on your phone.
		That might end up stored up on your phone and in a cloud storage system.
		And then if you upload it to Instagram, if you put it on Twitter, there's more data centers that hold that information.
		And then it's accessible anywhere.
		You can go to Europe, it can still pull up.
		You can go to Africa, still pull it up.
		And that's the potential for these kinds of data centers.
		In terms of AI development, these end up being large databases of information that they process from books, movies, TV, everything.
		And they take that data and try and build large language models out of it, which is an area you should talk to a real expert in LLMs instead of me.
		But in the context, what that processing takes is a lot of electricity.
		It takes a lot to build, to churn through all that information, establish the patterns, and then enable you and me to use it in all the ways that we are.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So Josh, explain the need for electricity and why it requires so much more than any other regular data center.
unidentified		Yeah, that's a great question.
		So these can be just much, much larger.
		So the kinds of data centers that might be serving My Zoom call here with you that's getting transmitted to listeners ultimately are going to be different than these AI specific data centers.
		Those are large installations.
		They can be something like 100 megawatts is not uncommon.
		The kinds of big developments in Texas, the Crusoe development, for example, is a gigawatt with even behind-the-meter gas generation.
		And that is to enable all of that processing to happen as fast as possible to make sure that they have the computers standing by, the chips standing by to process and do the math and figure out what are those patterns to exploit going forward.
		And most of your listeners are probably using that with, say, the image generation options to make funny pictures of cats or to reskin their favorite pictures of themselves in whatever style they're interested in.
		But it's also being used to do medical innovations.
		It's used to by material sciences researchers to establish what kinds of new materials themselves might be promising for then humans to go in and investigate.
		So there's a lot of different uses beyond the consumer day-to-day.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		If you'd like to join our conversation with Josh Smith, if you've got a question about how AI impacts the energy sector, you can go ahead and call.
		And now our lines are Republicans, 202-748-8001, Democrats 202748-8000, and Independents 202748-8002.
		We also have a line set aside.
		If you work in AI or in the energy sector, you can call us on 2028-8003.
		So, Josh, in addition to the amount of power that AI chips require, they also need to be cooled.
		So, talk about the kind of natural resources that these data centers are taking up.
unidentified		Yeah, that's a great question.
		A lot of the electricity use day-to-day at a data center is the cooling, depending on the style of cooling that you're using.
		So, air-cooled or water-cooled are all different energy uses at the end of the day.
		But the amount of natural resources, I think, is often fundamentally misunderstood.
		You might have seen comparisons about, say, the water use.
		And in 2021, Google's data center report, their report on their operations, said, Oh, we have for operating a data center for one day, we use 450,000 gallons of water.
		And you'll often see that number in headlines.
		You'll see it as this kind of big panic: oh no, we're using all the water to power AI, and do we even need AI?
		There's that sort of concern commonly.
		What isn't reported is the rest of the story, which is 450,000 gallons of water is about what it takes to water 17 acres of turfgrass.
		Or, as Google pointed out in one of their reviews, that 450,000 gallons is also what it takes to produce 160 pairs of genes, right?
		So, the water use is often without context in the same way that electricity use is often without context in the same way.
		So, there's a lot of opportunities.
		Yeah, these are resource-intensive, but the good news is it's a lot less once you think about other uses of electricity and water.
		And once you start thinking about the ability and the amount of resources that we have to power the cooling or to provide water in those kinds of areas, in fact, most of the water ends up being recirculated through the data center, anyways.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Now, some of these data centers are located in areas that don't have a whole lot of water.
		You know, you might have a lot of land, but not a whole lot of water.
		So, talk about the issues there and the impact to communities around those.
unidentified		Yeah, that's a great question.
		The good news there is that data center developers all have these kinds of environmental sustainability goals, which means that when they're investing in places that are water scarce in building a data center, they're making investments to make sure that their water supply is secure.
		They're also making investments to add water into the environment.
		So Google, Meta, Amazon, all of the big players that you hear about that are in the AI game, they all have water replenishment goals.
		And so not even just thinking about, if you think about Phoenix data centers, yeah, that's a water scarce area, desert hot and to dry heat.
		But if you go up to eastern, into the eastern U.S. and places like Virginia, where there's lots of water, those are the places where instead of replenishing water in those areas, they make agreements and efforts to replenish water in places where it's more valuable, like Phoenix.
		So data center companies are excited and interested in working with local utilities, with local cities and counties to make sure that their water supply is safe and doesn't infringe or deter or dampen the amount of water that people like you and me have every day.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So besides water usage, are there any other environmental impacts or health impacts from AI data centers?
unidentified		I don't know of any health impacts, but I think the major energy use concern is always about carbon emissions.
		And the good news there is that, again, yes, there's a lot of electricity use, but data centers are more and more finding ways to incorporate clean electricity sources that don't use anything that emits carbon or other emissions.
		So you have increasing interest in nuclear development.
		You have increasing interest in how to pair solar and batteries together.
		There was a really interesting paper by a set of researchers on using solar, battery, and then gas backup for the long times without solar that showed there was really competitive ways to build off-grid data centers with just solar batteries and then gas as a backup every once in a while.
		There's more and more of these opportunities, more and more opportunities to use batteries, to use clean sources that prevent carbon emissions or other emissions.
		And then of course, if you go back and think about, yes, if you queried ChatGPT, it's somewhere powered by a data center that is probably not 100% clean energy at that moment in that grid.
		But if you compare that electricity use to, say, a couple hours of watching TV at night, which no one is up in arms about, there's not serious carbon emissions relative to, say, streaming at night.
		And so if you go home and watch TV after a long day at work, Mimi, that TV use is likely to far exceed the amount of electricity use than the queries you're doing in ChatGPT to come up with more questions or that you're using to prep and learn about an issue before a call.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I want to show you something from WTVR.com because you mentioned the proliferation of data centers in Northern Virginia.
		Of course, that's very close to where we are here in DC.
		It says, as data centers proliferate in Virginia, conflict with communities follows.
		And this specific article talks about a 466,000 square foot data center and an adjacent electrical substation to be built a few hundred feet from townhomes, playgrounds, and a community center.
		Josh, Amina, besides the resources and the electricity, it's also, you know, these things are not very pretty to be put in communities.
unidentified		Yeah, I think there's obvious concerns.
		Data centers can work with the local community to find ways to build them so that they're additions instead of liabilities.
		That's something you should talk to people who are doing the architecture, of course.
		But the real story there is for policymakers, for state policymakers in rural communities like mine, for example, they should know something about the big picture, which is there are $64 billion of delayed or stopped data center development across the country.
		And Loudoun County in Virginia has seen a lot of data center development because of its access to a competitive electricity supply market and because of its fiber network that it has access to and its proximity to DC.
		But there's a lot of communities across the country that are looking for economic development, that are trying to find ways to provide jobs for their kids.
		And data center development in those areas can be a huge boon to communities that are actually open to it.
		And so there's a lot of opportunities if you're a city council member, if you're a state legislator, to build the infrastructure or to build an inviting community for those data centers to come to town and provide jobs, economic development, and the kinds of AI and innovations that will power our future.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to callers and start with Jeff, Independent Line, Port Angeles, Washington.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, y'all.
		So, this is maybe a bit nebulous, but if the large language model AIs have already scraped the web of all information, why wouldn't there just be one artificial intelligence?
		I maybe can't answer that, but it's just something that I've been pondering.
		Do you mean one company, Jeff, for AI?
		Well, yeah, just one particular AI model.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Okay, got it.
		Yeah.
		Go ahead, Josh.
unidentified		Yeah, this would be a great question for Taylor Barkley on our team at Abundance Institute or Neil Chilson, who both do a lot more of the AI-specific kind of work.
		But the good news is that there is a lot of innovation.
		As an economist, I like to see a lot of people involved in a space to keep it competitive, to keep it dynamic.
		And I would be scared if there was just one company providing all the AI services because that signals a lack of competition, a sort of monopoly.
		In terms of the data access and things, I think it suggests, yeah, there's been a huge improvement in AI over the last four or so years.
		There's still a lot to do.
		There's a lot of applications that are consumer-focused, like the ChatGPT image generation or text generation.
		And then there's the hyper-specific industry-style one.
		So you're going to see, I think, AI become a lot like washing machines, which is they do these amazing things for us every day, saving time, but they're only noticed when they break, right?
		So my wife's favorite example of this is using the Amazon's, I think it's called Rufus, to automate and read through the reviews and give you a summary of those.
		In that context, if you don't have enough reviews, Rufus doesn't show you a kind of breakdown, and then you go through it yourself.
		And my wife was saying, Oh, I didn't even realize that they were doing this and that I'd already gotten accustomed to it until here's a couple of products that we were looking at that didn't have enough reviews to be a useful backbone for the large language model to process.
		And that's inconvenient, but inconvenient in the same way that when your washing machine is broken, you suddenly realize how valuable it is.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Josh, part of the AI action plan is also to strengthen the power grid to be able to withstand all this demand for extra power.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		How expensive is that going to be and who's going to pay for that?
unidentified		That's a perfect question.
		So the question of who pays matters a lot when you're talking about the grid because the grid is sort of this club good that we all have access to.
		And in the 90s, when we had the dot-com boom, when people were building a lot of generation, they were building a lot of infrastructure to power the dot-com boom.
		That was done speculatively, it was done in a way that shared the risks with just average consumers.
		And so a lot of consumers, just everyday people who weren't investing in these dot-com companies, ended up paying for the infrastructure that then went unused.
		In technical terms, it's called a stranded cost.
		And so, if you want to make sure that only the people who are developing these AI models are the ones who end up paying for the infrastructure, you want to create competitive electricity markets where people can bring their own power, can bring their own generation, bring their own infrastructure, and working with the utility or working with an RTO, a regional transmission operator like PJM, get all of that orchestrated on their own dime instead.
		Those are the kinds of changes a lot of state policymakers are thinking about.
		I'm glad to say Utah passed some similar changes that allowed choice and allowed data centers to bring their own generation.
		That makes sure that you and I pay for it if we're users of it.
		But grandma, who's never touched ChatGPT, doesn't have to worry about her electricity rates rising because of data center development.
		So, I think the right way to pursue this and to protect cost shifts from grandma to data center companies onto grandma is simply to allow competitive electricity markets.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Linda, Orange, Connecticut, Line for Democrats, you're next.
unidentified		Good morning.
		You stole a little bit of my question, Mamie, but that's okay.
		Who's going to pay for it?
		Now, sir, before the show, I researched a little bit about your group and I was fascinated by a section that you had that said restoring old energy lines.
		Now, I understand that you're saying that you know it's going to be the ones who use it pay for it, but that's never true.
		Now, who's going to pay for restoration of old energy lines?
		And quite frankly, where I live, we can't sell back access energy to the power companies.
		So, if I generate more than I use, I don't get a net benefit from that financially.
		I do because my electric bill goes down.
		But this is kind of a buyer-beware question.
		I want to know what you're really doing there and who's going to pay for this ultimately.
		How are you going to restore old public lines without having the public pay for it?
		And I'll take my question off there.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda.
		And Josh, I'll just add to that this Axios article saying that electricity costs rise amid data center boom.
		And it says that electricity costs are rising nationwide and could get even higher.
		So, surging power bills could further stress many Americans' budgets.
		Go ahead with your answer.
unidentified		Linda, that's a perfect question.
		So, the kinds of problems there reflect the long-standing sort of monopoly system that we have.
		I don't know much about the Connecticut system in detail, but it sounds like you have one service provider, you don't get a choice on who is providing your electricity.
		And so, there's almost certain to be cost shifts in those kinds of systems.
		If you don't have a system where, say, in PJM, in Pennsylvania, in Virginia, you have the opportunity to shop for power, there's still lots of limits on that.
		And then, of course, those are conversations about large-scale development rather than household size.
		If you're interested in those kinds of questions, I'd recommend one of our fellows, Lynn Kiesling.
		She also runs the Institute for Regulatory Law and Economics.
		She writes a lot about what she calls transactive energy, which is literally, Linda, if you and I live next to each other, sometimes I could buy power from you, sometimes you'd be buying power from me.
		If I've got a battery system and you have solar, and there's a lot of opportunities in that distributed energy or DER space, I think full of opportunities to make the grid stronger, to power even the AI development by making sure that communities have their own power supplies in cases of extreme weather.
		And then in the case of cost shifts, it's totally fair and entirely worthwhile to remain skeptical of the deals that come out of PUCs and with monopoly utilities, because if you look at them, they're often quite redacted.
		They don't provide full information, which is why I like systems like the Texas model that provide very competitive electricity systems or like Utah's recent innovation in allowing some amount of choice and competition.
		In the Utah bill, for example, the industrial infrastructure, so the substations and the wires, all are studied by the PSC.
		And then those PUC, the PUC, the Public Utility Commission, provides sort of estimate of the costs and assigns those to the new large loads.
		And that's the right way to make sure that data centers don't shift costs from themselves onto grandma and the rest of us.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		In Portland, Oregon, Independent Line, Shaw Alpha.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
		Sir, I used to work at a company, a local municipal utility in Massachusetts called BELT, Brinchy Electric Light Department.
		And I used to, we used to, the deregulation with buying and selling electricity, for example, in Japanese Tato Eiba, for example, the Seabrook nuclear power plant.
		This is not the America I signed up for when I came to your country in 1984.
		The same thing happened in the airlines, the same thing happened in the energy industry.
		The more promises you make about efficiency.
		Let me make this quick because this is not a think tank.
		Artificial intelligence in the energy sector, it sounds like Skynet.
		That's what I think.
		And I'll conclude.
		Thank you very much.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Any comment there, Josh?
unidentified		Thank you for your question as always.
		I think there's been a lot of improvements in efficiency.
		You can look through the, I think it's the National Bureau of Economic Research published a paper in the last few months.
		They've run a working paper series.
		So these aren't peer-reviewed yet, but it's considered an incredibly good scholarly resource.
		They've published several papers about electricity companies or electricity generators that become subject to competition and the way that they become more efficient after that.
		And then Alfred Kahn, of course, wrote the book on the economics of regulation and uses airlines as one of his core examples of success.
		But those are the places that I'd look if you're thinking about the efficiency.
		And of course, welcome to America.
		Glad to have you here.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Josh, there are other alternative energy sources that are being investigated for AI.
		Part of that is nuclear as far as fission and fusion.
		Can you talk about where that is and when that could start coming online, if at all?
unidentified		Yeah, that's a great question.
		Nuclear has a lot of potential.
		And maybe Linda's question earlier about restarting new lines was about Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania getting turned back on.
		And I think those are incredibly exciting opportunities.
		There's a couple of nuclear plants where that's an option, that they can be restarted.
		We should be doing all of those that we can.
		And luckily, Three Mile Island is exactly that kind of private investment.
		Microsoft is working with Constellation, the plant owner, to get it back up and running.
		It's not going to come onto your bill if you are in the area.
		It should help lower those bills by meeting the electricity demands and reducing scarcity.
		But there's only a limited number of those plants that existed that we built that can be restarted.
		There's a few places where we could add a new reactor on sites, but a lot of promise seems to be in the small modular reactor space.
		And there's a lot of innovation here.
		There's been billions from the private sector coming in.
		There's a lot of opportunities in that space.
		The good news there is that the potential for SMRs is a bit like the batteries that you put into consumer devices.
		There's opportunities to tailor the reactor to the needs.
		So you can imagine remote towns in Alaska that have their own reactor to power the city's needs.
		You can imagine even remote towns in Utah having these kinds of reactors.
		And the big picture story with nuclear that everyone should remember is that it wasn't long ago, it's within recent American living memory that we built nuclear plants swiftly, cheaply, and safely.
		It used to be about five years and a billion dollars in the case of Connecticut Yankee.
		And actually, Seabrook plant that came out briefly is an example of sort of the obstinate and sort of NIMBY, not in my backyard sentiment that slowed development and ended up driving up costs for nuclear development and making it uncompetitive with dirtier sources like coal and natural gas.
		So there's a lot of potential in this space.
		I expect reactors to come on in the next five to 10 years and be commercially viable.
		There's tons of test reactors in particular.
		For people who are interested, they should look at the Idaho National Laboratory's work in the area.
		And Canary Media had a piece out a couple of weeks ago talking about, I think, there are 70 SMRs of different kinds, small modular reactors of different kinds in development in different stages.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		But Josh, when you say coming online safely, a lot of people remember those nuclear plant disasters.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Of course, the good news is Three Mile Island's release, for example, did not create any cancer deaths related to the radiation.
		In the same case for Fukushima, Fukushima is actually a case study in the fear of radiation causing more deaths than radiation itself.
		And that's because even though the estimates for the release from Fukushima in Japan were expected to be quite small in terms of their health effects, the basically undetectable, Japan evacuated a lot of people and more people died in that evacuation than will ever die from the radiation effects of Fukushima.
		So our fear of radiation kills more people every day than does nuclear energy.
		And you can see this in the statistics.
		I testified in DC two weeks ago on these kinds of issues and nuclear is by far the safest source of energy on par with solar and wind sorts of in terms of deaths per terawatt hour of energy.
		And that includes disasters like Chernobyl, which is again, and Chernobyl is a fault of a freak design that no one in their right minds would ever build ever again.
		And of course, SMRs, again, are going to be even safer because they're being rethought from the top to bottom.
		Maybe you build them deep underground so that they're naturally contained if there is a problem.
		And of course, you're also dealing with much, much smaller plants.
		And so the kinds of problems that might occur are by necessity much, much smaller.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Josh, you did just mention wind and solar.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Are there any provisions here for green energy?
unidentified		In the AI action plan, this is one of the areas I think that's really missing.
		And that's because if you look at a map of the U.S. federal lands, again, federal lands trigger all the federal permitting requirements, and that can be a big challenge for getting a solar farm connected, getting a wind farm connected.
		And so there's a ton of opportunities in the southwestern part of the U.S. and in my neck of the woods in Utah, in Texas, in New Mexico.
		And in Texas, there's tons of opportunity because it's mostly private land.
		In Utah, where it's mostly federal lands, it's impossible to site and permit solar farms on these.
		The reviews take years.
		People can get in the way by suing and holding things up in court.
		And all of that holds back the AI development that can power future human prosperity.
		So there's a lot of opportunities to unlock more of these kinds of technologies through the same kinds of permitting reform and the build, baby, build mentality that is embodied in the report.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Beth in Wisconsin, Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Beth.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm wondering how much sound or noise do these AI power generating plants produce.
		If you're living in a neighborhood and one goes in, you know, a couple blocks from you or a block from you, what is that gonna involve?
		Yeah, that's an important question, too.
		The good news is that a lot of these designs of data centers are getting better at isolating any noise.
		Most of that noise, if you think about your computer operating, when is your computer allowed?
		It's allowed when the fan kicks on because it's overheating.
		And that's the same case for data centers.
		They have large cooling systems if they're air-cooled.
		And so designing those systems to provide sound breaks and making sure that that sound stays isolated is entirely reasonable.
		And the good news for policymakers is that they already have effective noise control limits on the books.
		So there's ample reason and ability for community members who are disadvantaged to go to the city councils, to go to state governments and say, these guys are over the noise limits that's established.
		You need to fix that.
		And I think that's the right way to deal with AI data center builds and with AI as a whole is remember, we already have a lot of rules on the books, and there's no need to add a bunch of new additional permitting restrictions or siting restrictions because we already have tons of those in place.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Beverly in Ohio, Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Josh.
		I am so glad you talked about wind turbines.
		My sister lives in Huron County, Ohio, and Apex wants to build wind turbines 100 feet from her home.
		And she's very, very, very against it because it'll ruin the idyllic countryside and it will ruin farmlands.
		And the Power Siting Board in Columbus voted for these many wind turbines in Erie and Huron counties.
		And we cannot get a hold of the Power Siting Board.
		They live in Columbus and they know nothing about Bellevue, Ohio and Monroeville, Ohio.
		And we do not want wind turbines in our idyllic countryside.
		It would be wonderful if they were in Texas and Utah.
		So can you tell Apex and the Power Siting Board in Ohio to send those wind turbines to Texas and Utah and we do not want them in Huron or Erie counties?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Thanks, Beverly.
		You cut out a little bit, so I apologize if this isn't a full answer to your question.
		But I think the right ways to handle this are actually if you really don't want wind turbines next door, well, there's some market value that the landowner next door is getting from that wind turbine.
		And there's no reason you can't pool together your funds with neighbors to say, look, John, we know you want to put in this wind turbine.
		We think that affects our view shed.
		We don't want, we would love to pay you not to do that.
		These kinds of agreements are actually pretty common in the environmental space.
		For one example, that the Property Environment Research Center in Bozeman, Montana has written a lot about, they contract, they work with nonprofits that contract with ranchers who don't want wolves reintroduced into the area because if you reintroduce wolves into an area where you're ranching cattle, you're going to lose cattle to those wolves.
		And so the nonprofits in this space work with those ranchers to say, look, we'll pay you for the market value of those cattle that get taken.
		And I think that's the right way to both respect the property rights of ranchers.
		To risk like the property rights in this case of landowners who want to put in a wind turbine and to make sure everyone kind of has an ability to do the things they want with their property, right?
		And this is an important question.
		I think it's clearly roiling all sorts of agricultural communities across the country.
		I think there's one in seven or so U.S. counties has a restriction on wind or solar development that reflects exactly the feelings that you have, Beverly.
		And I think the right ways to deal with this are less than going to power siting boards and asking them to not approve permits that might otherwise be lawfully granted, but instead to say, look, we really, John, don't want you to put in this wind turbine and we're willing to put our money where our mouth is.
		I think that's the right way to solve a lot of these complaints and concerns.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Mike in Odom, Texas, you work in the energy sector, Mike.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What do you do there?
unidentified		I have worked in the energy sector as a utility worker, safety worker.
		I appreciate the technical expertise of Mr. Smith and the fact that the program is taking time to explore the fact and the facts of the technologies and kind of get away from a lot of the just the assumptions about the dangers of these types of things.
		My question for Mr. Smith is: what about the agreements, whether it's PJM or Southern PowerPool, that these data centers are making in the event of catastrophic power loss, you know, hurricanes, freezes, those kind of events?
		What are they building into these agreements that allow these centers to help in those situations?
		Yeah, that's an exciting area.
		There's a lot of opportunities for data centers since they usually build one-to-one backup systems.
		That's often a diesel generation that they can turn on when power goes out locally, say they lose a transmission line or they have some kind of other weather-related outage.
		And so they fire up the diesel gen so they can keep chugging along.
		One of the things that I've worked on a little bit is how to make data centers broadly assets and not liabilities to the grid by enabling greater backup use during peak moments on the electricity system or by encouraging them to bring their own generation.
		And so with Gideon Powell, we wrote a piece for Utility Dive advocating for these kinds of agreements where I say when electricity prices on the grid that you and I are paying go really, really high, data centers could turn on their own backup systems.
		There's a lot of these kinds of innovations that have happened on sort of the sidelines so far.
		In Wyoming, for example, a small town told a data center company that they wouldn't build a gas plant.
		They wouldn't allow the data center to build there because the data center was larger, I think, than the city's total megawatt use.
		And so what the company did was actually build that gas plant themselves.
		And when the grid, local grid gets stressed, they turn on that gas plant to help alleviate the system stress.
		You could do this all sorts of ways.
		You could provide battery backups to people across the area to relieve grid constraints.
		And one of the best parts of the AI action plan, I think, is actually exactly this.
		How do you enable these sorts of different arrangements?
		Instead of just having a utility provide you power, how do you get the data center involved thinking about its power use and its sort of ripple effects down the system and on other users?
		How do you get batteries in places to manage grid fluctuations?
		How do you get people to do things that they had never considered doing before?
		Because it used to just be you plugged into the grid system and then that was that.
		Today, and because of the speed we need to move at, we need to be thinking about how to get flexible backup systems like the gas backup system I mentioned, or how to get more data centers to put in batteries on site.
		So during the few hours a day when the system is stressed, they can turn on and run on batteries for just a short time.
		There's a lot of innovations in this area, and a lot of them will end up putting money in your pocket, especially in Texas, if you have some kind of generating asset or a battery on your home, you can sell that into the market in the way that Linda's earlier question mentioned.
		So Base Power is one example.
		David Energy is another.
		Both are companies that do exactly that.
		They enable you, if you can serve the system needs, to actually make money in return for serving the general system.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Finally, Josh, I want to ask you about semiconductors because that's part of the AI action plan is to revitalize semiconductor manufacturing.
		Isn't that what the Biden administration's CHIPS Act was meant to do?
		Or is this doing something in addition to that?
unidentified		I think that's right.
		I'm not an expert on semiconductor manufacturing or in these kinds of technological, in these industries and how the right ways to move them forward.
		But I do think that there, even the build, baby, build mentality matters.
		And that's because if you look at a lot of the CHIPS Act developments, I think most of those were exempted from NEPA.
		And that's because they didn't want them to get tied up in endless delays that we see affecting pipelines, solar farms, wind farms, and battery installations today.
		So there's a lot of opportunities if we clear the way and make it easier to build for electricity prices to fall, for consumers to benefit, and for us to maintain a sort of dominant position in the AI race.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		One more call for you.
		This is Eric in New York, Democrat.
		Go ahead, Eric.
unidentified		Oh, hi, Josh.
		It's nice to see you.
		I'm hokeying my living room rug right now.
		A hokey is a non-powered brush vacuum off the dinner, I guess, in the depression.
		My question is about the wisdom of putting all our chips on the AI square and the cost is going to be a lot of energy.
		So I guess we are not in the AI realm yet to predict what this huge draw on our energy availability and pull out all the stops, you know, coming up with new small nuclear generation plants, heating up the groundwater with geothermal, which I'm thinking of using in my house, by the way.
		Geothermal sounds great, but if everybody uses geothermal, I don't know how cool it's going to be down there anymore.
		You know, it's just there's the unforeseen consequence thing that I'm not hearing.
		So that's basically the realm of my question.
		Yeah, I think it's an important area.
		A lot of the load growth coming, right?
		There's 120 gigawatts or so of load growth expected, according to Rob Gramlich and his team at Grid Strategies.
		But that's not the only sources, right?
		So electrification of transportation, the electrification of heating and cooling, all of that reflects load growth as well going forward.
		Not to mention if we're going to bring U.S. semiconductor manufacturing back to the U.S. or grow the industry, that's also an energy-intensive group or kind of industry.
		So that 120 gigawatts of data center demand is sort of, let's get going on this load growth because there's a lot of services that are needed.
		And the fundamental point that I think you highlight implicitly is prosperity is energy intensive.
		There's a lot of ability for us to power new innovations of all kinds, whether that's the electric vehicle, whether it's the battery that has to be charged to be useful to you later.
		All of those require electricity and all of them make your life better in some way or you wouldn't have purchased them.
		And so there's a lot of opportunities to make sure that we build a system where people who want to build data centers pay for those developments themselves.
		And we have electricity available, not just for the big dogs like Amazon and Google and Microsoft, Meta, but for the upstart in their garage to be able to test and try things.
		And there's a lot of opportunities to do exactly that by making it easier to build Baby Build.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Josh Smith, he is energy policy lead at the Abundance Institute.
		You can find more about them at abundance.institute.
		Josh, thanks so much for joining us.
unidentified		Thank you for having me.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Coming up next, more of your phone calls on Open Forum.
		You can start calling in now.
		It is 202748-8001 for Republicans, 202-748-8000 for Democrats.
		And 202-748-8002 for Independents.
		We'll be right back.
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		Let's go to your calls now to James Wisconsin, Independent Line.
		Good morning, James.
unidentified		Good morning, and how are you this morning?
		I'm doing great.
		All I wanted to do is I wanted to call in a little bit and talk about AI.
		I've been in the IT profession for over 45 years, and I worked for some of the top companies in the world, IBM, SSI, and a person called Steve Chen, who was the architect for the first Cray supercomputer.
		He started his own company in Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
		And what I'd like everybody to understand is AI is still programmed by humans.
		And computers are basically run by zeros and ones.
		Nothing more, nothing less.
		It's like a light switch.
		It's either on or off.
		And with AI, you have to understand that it is a human process.
		It is not a computer that is generating its own code.
		It does have some capabilities of doing that, but in reality, everything is still done by the human.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, James, the training process would probably be all done by humans.
		But after that, it could be pretty autonomous, don't you think?
		As far as the results that it's giving?
unidentified		Not really, because every part of the computer is controlled by the human, by the human brain.
		It is not something that is autonomous to the computer itself.
		It has to be told how to process those instructions.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So I'm curious what you think about what's called laws, lethal autonomous weapon systems, where the AI system, once it's trained on finding targets, will determine the target and make the kill decision without a human in the loop.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What do you think of that?
unidentified		It is still a process that is controlled by the human to program that intelligence into the computer.
		It's not something that is done by the computer itself.
		It is still an algorithm that is written in order for the computer to understand what it's looking at.
		It's not a matter of the computer automatically determining how to do that.
		It still has to be done by the human brain.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's Kirk, Troy, New York, Independent Line.
		Go ahead, Kirk.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yeah, I wanted to just talk about the last guest you had a little bit and kind of provide maybe some counter information to what he provided.
		There's a great YouTube channel, More Perfect Union, and they have a couple good videos on this.
		One is about, it's called I Live 400 Yards from Mark Zuckerberg's Massive Data Center, and it kind of shows that it's completely destroyed their groundwater living near this data center.
		And then another one is the secret plan behind artificial intelligence, which kind of at some level covers how these doom and gloom future problems that the tech CEOs are talking about are kind of to avoid attention from the real harms they're causing right now.
		And I think, you know, before accepting what, you know, these tech CEOs, before accepting that the AI will benefit us all, we should really look at what these tech CEOs kind of envision as a future world and think about do we really want that?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What are they saying is the future world?
unidentified		Well, you know, you'll hear them often say, you know, like Sam Altman, that, oh, in the future, computers will be smarter than my kids, right?
		And it's just like, do we really want the computers to be smarter than us humans or, right?
		And do we want all, you know, all the jobs being done by AI?
		I don't think that'll happen necessarily, but, you know, now they're saying, right, most entry-level jobs are being taken by AI, right, instead of humans.
		And it's like, well, how are humans going to grow into becoming more senior members in these jobs and getting experience if all the entry-level positions are no longer available?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Kirk.
		And we are in an open forum.
		If you'd like to join us, the numbers are on your screen.
		202748-8001 for Republicans, 202748-8000 for Democrats.
		And Independents are on 202748-8002.
		We covered last night's town hall by Representative Mike Flood, a Republican of Nebraska, and he faced questions from the audience.
		One of them was about the Epstein files.
		Here's that exchange.
unidentified		Why are you covering up the Epstein files?
mike flood ▲ ● ▼		Let's be very clear.
		At the next pro forma session of the Congress, you'll find my name as a sponsor on a resolution from the House Rules Committee to release the Epstein files to protect the victims and not re-victimize them again.
		I support J.B. Comer, who is the House's Oversight Committee Chairman, subpoenaing Ms. Maxwell later this month to come testify in Washington.
unidentified		I am for the release of those records.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And you see there on your screen, C-SPAN does have congressional town halls from Democrats, Republicans, whoever is holding those town halls.
		You can see our schedule on the website, c-span.org.
		And you can watch that town hall by Representative Mike Flood in its entirety, if you'd like, also on our website in the archives.
		He mentioned a pro forma.
		We're going to be taking you there right at about 10 o'clock.
		And then after that to an event at the Heritage.
		But we've got a little bit more time left, an open forum, about 17 minutes.
		And here's David in Michigan on the line for Democrats.
		Hi, David.
unidentified		Hello.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead, David.
unidentified		on the air.
		Oh, okay.
		I just I like the program and I've had one thing that's been baffling me about our current circumstances and the history that got us here is is relevant to what's going on, I believe.
		Let me try and do this short in short time.
		It was 1930s that FDR created the New Deal.
		And there was a great deal of angst about that.
		And I think the Heritage Foundation was one of the organizations that was basically against that program.
		But I believe that FDR is intent was to add the second leg of the constitutional, constitutionally.
		In the preamble paragraph states that we need a common defense, one, and a general welfare, two.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		David, I've got to move on to other callers.
		Here's Sarah, New Hampshire, Independent Line.
		Go ahead, Sarah.
unidentified		Yeah, a couple comments on the AI thing, the strain on electricity.
		I believe one gigabyte is or megawatt or whatever it is, it could fire up something like 8,000 homes.
		And farmland is being taken over by these billionaires.
		In Ohio, a whole town was taken over by, actually it was Epstein and the guy that owns Victoria's Secret.
		And they're leveling perfectly good homes to make room for these their enterprises.
		The other thing is on the, you know, my electric rate went up this month.
		Okay, so we're going to end up paying for all this to replace ourselves.
		AI, the people behind AI, are openly speaking out loud about what their intent is.
		A million robots by 2030.
		Let's see, eliminating jobs.
		They're bragging about eliminating jobs as I speak because of AI.
		I'm a truck driver.
		I'm going to get replaced by a self-driving truck.
		And, you know, why support something that is only going to be used by billionaires to spy on us, control us?
		Stop investing in these companies.
		Stop investing or using companies and corporations that don't pay taxes.
		Taxes is a responsibility of all Americans.
		It doesn't matter how poor you are, you've got to pay taxes.
		But if you're rich, filthy rich, you get a free pass, and then you take the money and five, I don't know, $50 million wedding in Venice.
		You can buy a whole town.
		You can put up one of these AI energy-sucking monstrosities that is going to replace human beings at work.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Got your point, Sarah.
		Sonia, Tampa, Florida, Democrat.
		Good morning, Sonia.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I wanted to comment on the AI.
		The gentleman's from Wisconsin, and I totally agree.
		The bottom line is humans men program the AI.
		It is not a system where it's able to make its own decisions.
		Like take our co-pilot, Microsoft.
		They are constantly updating it, feedback from it.
		And those are people putting that information in to the system.
		It's not a system that is able to make its own determination, make its own opinions.
		It is man-made still involved with the constant tweaking, updating, and control over the AI system.
		So I don't believe that the AI system is something that is able to make its own decisions or something that is not controlled by humans.
		So whatever responses they're making, it's a person putting that in.
		It's not a machine that's making its own opinions or assumptions.
		So I just wanted to make that comment.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And here's Robert, Tucson, Arizona, Independent Line.
		You're on the air, Robert.
unidentified		Yes.
		Here in Tucson, there was a proposal from Amazon to build a data center.
		And we have a monopoly on the Tucson Electric Power as the only power company we have.
		We've got two problems.
		We're in a drought, multi-decade drought.
		The amount of water they're going to use for this.
		And their proposal is to use reclaimed water after using two years of municipal water from the city of Tucson.
		I wish I had been able to get a hold of get through when your first speaker was there because I would certainly like to hear what he has to say about that.
		That's all.
		That is my comment.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Robert.
		And some news for you from the Washington Post about the Middle East.
		Netanyahu fires Attorney General as domestic pressure over Gaza heats up.
		It says Israel's cabinet voted to dismiss the Attorney General, a keen Netanyahu critic, as the U.S. grows increasingly impatient with the war in Gaza.
		Doug in Newport News, Virginia, Republican.
		Hi, Doug.
unidentified		Hey, how you doing?
		I would make one short comment because it's too much thing going wrong in the whole country and the world.
		But one thing is, if they want to do something for the working people, you require us to take out our money out of 401k per year.
		You told us to put it in there when we needed it.
		If I don't need it, Wash, I have to take it out.
		The second point is real simple.
		They want to put a reactor on the moon.
		My knowledge, a nuclear reactor requires water to cool it.
		How are you going to do that?
		And why would you even do it?
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Lori in St. Robert, Missouri, Republican line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
		I've been watching C-SPAN for years and I feel compelled to tell a little bit about my life.
		I am 63 and I have got something.
		It's very hard for me to say.
		My husband, ex-husband, brainwashed me for seven years.
		And I was so young and I didn't understand what was going on.
		My whole family told me he was brainwashing me and I didn't listen.
		And so he had to take me to a mental hospital.
		It took me so long.
		I was in there for like four months.
		And I was just, I didn't know what to do.
		I just was so, it was terrible.
		And it ruined my life.
		And so I just don't want to see these people that are brainwashed.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		They don't have to.
		Sorry that you are going through all that.
		I want to show you the front page of the Washington Post.
		Here it says, Texas GOP seeks arrests.
		Fleeing Democrats remain resolute.
		Special session grinds to a halt without the quorum.
		That's what we were talking about earlier this morning.
		Let's take a look at the Speaker of the House in Texas.
		That's the Texas State House.
		His name is Dustin Burroughs, calling for the civil arrests of Democrats who left the state.
dustin burrows ▲ ● ▼		The role has been called and a quorum has not been established.
		Let me begin by commending the members who did show up.
		Those who answered the call, honored their oath, and came here ready to work for the people of Texas.
		Your presence speaks volumes.
		You understand that the issues before us, disaster recovery, fighting for the families who lost loved ones in the floods, human trafficking and more, are not abstract policy debates.
		They are real-world problems demanding immediate solutions.
		But instead of confronting those challenges, some of our colleagues have fled the state and their duty.
		They've left the state, abandoned their posts, and turned their backs on the constituents they swore to represent.
		They've shirked their responsibilities under the direction and pressure of out-of-state politicians and activists who don't know the first thing about what's right for Texas.
		To be absolutely clear, leaving the state does not stop this House from doing its work.
		It only delays it.
		And every day this chamber is unable to act, the cost grows.
		In response to this dereliction of duty and pursuant to the rules of the House, I am prepared to recognize a motion to place a call on the House and any other motions necessary to compel the return of absent members.
		Should such a motion prevail, I will immediately sign the warrants for the civil arrest of the members who have said they will not be here.
		As Speaker, I will do everything in my power to establish quorum and move this body forward by any and all means available to this office.
		To those who are absent, return now.
		Show the courage to face the issues you were elected to solve.
		Come back and fulfill your duty because this House will not sit quietly while you obstruct the work of the people.
		The people of Texas are watching, and so is the nation.
		And if you choose to continue down this road, you should know there will be consequences.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And it's open forum.
		We'll talk to Janet in Arizona, Independent Line.
		Hi, Janet.
unidentified		Hi.
		I would like to stand up for the hardworking immigrants.
		We're gathering them up.
		They're working hard.
		They have increased our tax base.
		Years ago, I was in China and they were advertising for people to move to Canada to increase their tax base.
		And that's what our immigrants have done for us.
		In the meantime, we have our own citizens taking automatic weapons and shooting everybody in the streets and places, and homeless people that are using our sidewalks for toilets.
		There's such a disappointment in both sides of our government.
		And Donald Trump is setting a bad example for our young people.
		I feel so sad.
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here is an article from the New York Post.
		Ex-Obama officials face federal grand jury probe into whether they promoted false Trump-Russia ties.
		It says that the Justice Department is opening a federal grand jury investigation of former Obama administration officials who allegedly conspired to whip up a scandal about President Trump's purported links to Russia during the 2016 campaign.
		Major legal development opens the door to criminal charges against prominent cabinet members who served President Barack Obama, including former DNI James Clapper, former CIA Director John Brennan, and former FBI Director James Comey.
		Here is Andy in Cleveland, Ohio, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		My question is about our Social Security.
		Donald Trump said that there would be no federal tax on our Social Security.
		I got my July payment and that was not included.
		And I get August next week.
		Could you give me any information on whether or not we will receive that federal money?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So this is the socialsecurityssa.gov.
		It says, must I pay, so this is under frequently asked questions, Andy.
		It says, must I pay taxes on Social Security benefits?
		It says you must pay taxes on up to 85% of your Social Security benefits if you file a federal tax return as an individual.
		And your combined income exceeds $25,000 joint return.
		And you and your spouse have combined income of more than $32,000.
		So it would appear that there are still taxes on Social Security.
		Candle in Chicago, Democrat.
unidentified		Hey, how are you doing?
		I just wanted to say one thing.
		I don't know why this country is so racist, why they'd rather have a white rapist in office than to have somebody of color who actually qualify for the job.
		And then they talk about all this DEI.
		Everybody in Trump administration is a DEI because none of them earn it.
		Most of them came from a racist news anchor outlet.
		So that's all I wanted to say.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here is an article for you in the New York Times.
		It says, it's just below the fold.
		Hindus rally behind a goal.
		Beat Mamdani.
		It says, two days before the New York City Democrats went to the polls to select their mayoral nominee in June, a plane flew over the Statue of Liberty, trailing a banner attacking the racist frontrunner, Zoharan Momdani.
		Quote, save New York City from global intifada.
		It read in letters five feet high, reject Momdani.
		The banner, seemingly aimed at the city's Jewish voters, touched on the campaign's most charged foreign policy issue, Mr. Momdani's criticism of Israel.
		But the group behind it wasn't Jewish or Israeli.
		Its members are Indian American Hindus who accuse Mr. Mondani of pushing an anti-Hindu, an anti-Indian agenda.
		Cutler in New Hampshire, Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Yes, how are you doing?
		I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the fact that we are losing our democracy.
		So, whether you're a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent, we are Americans.
		And the current administration is dismantling our country.

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