CSPAN - Washington Journal 08/03/2025

All Episodes

Previous Next

Aug. 3, 2025 07:00-10:02 - CSPAN

03:01:42

Washington Journal 08/03/2025

Participants

Main

kimberly adams

cspan 40:59

Appearances

anna merlan

01:23

brian lamb

cspan 00:42

chuck schumer

sen/d 02:34

donald j trump

admin 03:23

hakeem jeffries

rep/d 01:14

jerome powell

01:20

kevin hassett

admin 00:34

nicole kobie

01:41

Clips

donald j trump [ai]

admin 00:05

dr alfredo quinones-hinojosa

00:22

ed asner

00:28

gen douglas macarthur

00:13

jonathan fahey

00:05

Callers

doug in kansas

callers 00:07

john in unknown

callers 00:24

steve in florida

callers 00:14

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Up this morning on Washington Journal, we'll take your calls and comments live.
		Then, Real Clear Politics senior elections analyst Sean Trendy talks about political news of the week and previews the upcoming midterm elections.
		And senior reporter for Mother Jones and author of Republic of Lies, author Anna Merlin, discusses conspiracy theories in U.S. politics.
		C-SPAN's Washington Journal is next.
		Join the conversation.
		Good morning.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		It's Sunday, August 3rd, 2025.
		A busy week of economic data revealed an economy that's weaker than many analysts thought under the second Trump administration.
		Just on Friday alone, we had a new round of tariffs, a disappointing jobs report, and President Trump's firing of one of the government's key economic officials.
		Our question this morning.
		Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the U.S. economy?
		If you're optimistic, call us at 202-748-8000.
		If you're pessimistic, 202-748-8001.
		If you'd like to text us, that number is 202-748-8003.
		Please be sure to include your name and where you're writing in from.
		Of course, we're also on social media, facebook.com slash C-SPAN and on X at C-SPANWJ.
		There were a variety of economic indicators released this week, including GDP reports, some inflation numbers, and the jobs report.
		As reported here in thehill.com, dark clouds emerge for Trump on the economy, showing that dark clouds formed over President Trump's economy Friday after the July jobs report showed the labor market only gaining 106,000 jobs over the last three months.
		The report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics suggested the economy and the labor market are much weaker than previously thought and will raise questions about whether the president's tariff regime is keeping businesses from hiring.
		The combination of the dismal jobs report and rising inflation also raises disturbing questions about whether the economy is in stagflation, where unemployment rises with prices.
		Some of these concerns were echoed in the Wall Street Journal editorial board's piece about the week of economic data that we received, saying the Trump economy stumbles, among other points in that Wall Street Journal editorial saying in terms of who is taking the blame for this according to the Trump administration, Mr. Trump's other scapegoat is the Federal Reserve, which he says has been too late to cut interest rates.
		Maybe that will prove to be true, but the Fed also has to navigate Mr. Trump's tariff uncertainty and the large fact that inflation is still above its 2% target.
		Every public opinion poll says voters remain unhappy about the price increases they're paying.
		A saving grace we hope will be the is that the new tax law and deregulation will reduce business costs and lift investment.
		But Mr. Trump can help by stopping his trade war.
		If he won't roll back his tariffs, at least he can declare that he's content with where they are and has no plans for more.
		That from the Wall Street Journal editorial board.
		Now, in response to that negative jobs report, as is listed here in the Washington Post, Trump fires the labor statistics chief after large revision to jobs report.
		Erica McEntefarfer, the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, was ousted after revised data showed higher unemployment in May and June.
		President Trump, Donald President Donald Trump on Friday said he ordered the dismissal of the official in charge of compiling basic statistics about the U.S. economy after the release of a soft jobs report that showed lackluster July employment growth and revealed large downward revisions for hiring in May and June.
		Now on Friday, President Trump spoke to reporters before leaving for New Jersey.
		Here he's asked why anyone should trust Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers moving forward and explained why he fired the BLS commissioner.
unidentified		On the monthly jobs report, going forward, why should anyone trust the numbers?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I think.
		You're right.
		No, you're right.
		Why should anybody trust numbers?
		You go back to election, election day.
		Look what happened two or three days before with massive, wonderful job numbers trying to get him elected or her elected, trying to get whoever the hell was running.
		Because you go back and they came out with numbers that were very favorable to Kamala, okay?
		To trying to get him elected, trying to get her elected.
		And then on the 15th of November or thereabouts, they had an 800 or 900,000 overstatement reduction right after the election.
		It didn't work because you know who won, John?
		I won.
unidentified		But here's the thing: your supporters have had issues with these numbers.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		I've had issues with the numbers for a long time.
		But today's, we're doing so well.
		I believe the numbers were phony just like they were before the election.
		And there were other times.
		So you know what I did?
		I fired her.
		And you know what?
		I did the right thing.
unidentified		If any government official going forward is presenting data or information you don't like, should they fear for their job?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		I've always had a problem with these numbers.
		You know, I was thinking about it this morning.
		Before the numbers that came out, I said, who is the person that does these numbers?
		And then they gave me stats about before the election.
		I had a similar problem.
		I mean, she gave out numbers that were so good for the Democrats.
		It was like unbelievable.
		And then right after the election, she corrected those numbers with, I think, almost 900,000 corrections.
		I think nobody had ever seen anything like it.
		Well, today she did the same thing with the 253,000, whatever the number was.
		No, no, we need people that we can trust.
		I mean, your question is a very good one.
		We need people we can trust.
unidentified		Actually, a lot of people from Platform.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		You don't really plan to replace the world.
		I've got about three very good.
		I have a lot of good candidates.
		I will say everybody wants it.
		I've had more phone calls, but I have three people that are.
		If you have a background in home, I can do a long-term thing or I could do a temporary.
		It's a 14-year term.
unidentified		But can you put someone in who actually has labor statistics experience?
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		I put somebody in.
unidentified		I put somebody in who's going to be honest.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		That's all we want.
		I have a choice.
		I can have four months.
		I could do a short-term or I could do a 14-year deal.
		So we'll see.
		We have a lot of people.
		We've got a lot of good people around.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Now, having a look again at those numbers that came out from the Bureau of Labor Statistics on Friday with the July jobs report, the unemployment rate was at 4.2%, just slightly higher, a tenth of a percentage point higher than it was the previous month, and the country added 73,000 jobs.
		Now, there has been an extreme backlash, especially among the economic community, to the firing of the BLS commissioner, including Jason Fuhrman, who's the former chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisors.
		He said, this is awful.
		Reliable economic data is a key strength of the U.S. economy.
		I don't think Trump will be able to fake the data given the procedures, but there is now a risk, plus an awful appearance.
		Our question again this morning: Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the U.S. economy?
		And our number, if you're optimistic, is 202-748-8000.
		If you're pessimistic, 202-748-8001.
		There has been some recent polling on how Americans view President Trump's handling of the economy.
		This is a Reuters-Ipsos poll that polled over 1,000 U.S. adults, finding that only 38% of respondents approved of President Trump's handling of the economy.
		That number is up from 35% approval in a mid-July poll.
		But when you look at break it down by party, of Republicans, 80% approve of Trump's handling of the economy, 16% disapprove.
		Among Democrats, 4% approve, 92% disapprove.
		Let's hear from you, starting with Darrell in Columbus, Georgia, who is pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Darrell.
unidentified		Good morning, Cameron.
unidentified		How are you doing?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Fine, thank you.
unidentified		Good.
		You know, we're dealing with a situation where the president is in his second term right now and still does not understand government.
		When things are going his way, he's fine.
		He's like a child.
		When things are not going his way, he won't take his ball and go home.
		It just crazy.
		He didn't have to fire the lady.
		She's just doing her job.
		When the numbers come in, the numbers are rolling all the time.
		And then she's just reporting whatever comes in, and then she put it out there, whether it is good or bad.
		And that's her job.
		He didn't have to do what he had to do because, like I said just a minute ago, he does not understand anything.
		In fact, he caused all this.
		They went and fired everybody.
		You expect the numbers, the job numbers to be good.
		You're going to fire government workers and cut down everything that you can cut out.
		So the numbers are going to be bad.
		And it's going to be more to come.
		But what he's going to do, he's going to put somebody in there that's going to give him fake numbers all the time.
		Just like we live in Russia now.
		They're going to give him fake numbers, and then he's going to be global and all that kind of thing.
		But in the long run, everybody's going to know the truth.
		Everybody's going to know the truth because they're going to see it in their wallet.
		They're going to see it from our foreign allies and all that.
		They're going to say, the United States is just not right.
		Can't be trusted.
		And that's all I got to say, Kimberly.
		Thank you, okay?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Darrell mentioned people feeling it in their wallet.
		There's a story in the New York Times.
		After a lag, consumers begin to feel the pinch of tariffs.
		There are growing signs that President Trump's levies are filtering through to consumer prices as companies exhaust options for keeping them stable.
		Companies are starting to shift more tariff-related costs onto consumers.
		Many businesses chose to absorb the additional tax during the early days of President Trump's trade war, but evidence is emerging that they are running out of options to keep prices stable in the face of deteriorating profit margins, suggesting that the tariffs could have a more pronounced effect on prices in the months to come.
		Government data, including from the Commerce Department this week, show that prices rose in June on items heavily exposed to tariffs, such as home furnishings, toys, and appliances.
		Next up is Arthur in Florida, who's optimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Arthur.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
		If we can, I'm very optimistic, if we can cut out the waste in the government, if we can cut out a lot of these here big foreign deals going, which basically overtaxes the American people, if we can start trying to protect American jobs.
		Yes, I'm optimistic about that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Which foreign deals do you mean, Arthur?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking about the tariffs?
unidentified		I'm talking about really any foreign deals.
		I mean, with the tariffs, basically this is to keep their stuff from coming in here cheaper than American products and putting Americans out of work.
		I mean, we cannot have that.
		We need to protect American jobs and basically not be overflooding our country with junk coming from overseas, come slave labor.
		We need to protect American jobs.
		We need to cut out the waste in the government, and we need to cut out unnecessary foreign aid.
		Thank you for your time.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Next up is Nate in Franklin, Indiana, who is pessimistic about the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Nate.
unidentified		Good morning.
		You know, we can fuss about numbers on paper, but what you can't fuss with is I am on the very front end of the economy.
		I'm a recycler.
jonathan fahey ▲ ● ▼		I am getting 25% more for scrap metal, for precious metals.
unidentified		And by the time all of that turns shiny, it's going to cost the consumer.
		There's no way around that.
		Because when you eliminate competition by restricting import goods, then everything goes up because the demand for domestic goods goes up.
		Secondly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Actually, Nate, before you move on to your next point, can you explain a little bit more about why you're seeing the prices for the scrap metal that you're selling go up?
unidentified		Well, it's going up because demand is going up.
		For instance, if you put a 25% tax on steel coming out of Canada, which he did, now it's, I think, 35.
		So the demand for my scrap metal here in the United States goes up.
		So the price goes up.
		That's on the very front end.
		By the time that is all refined into goods, that cost is going to go to the consumer.
		So I guess I should thank the consumer in advance for paying me more for my scrap metal.
		But that's not good for the consumer, and it's not good for the economy.
		Secondly, when you remove, we've got these immigrants.
		They may be undocumented, but they are here.
		They're spending money.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Nate, your line is starting to break up a little bit, so I just want to make sure you can do what you can to keep your phone line clear.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		But continue.
unidentified		Okay, so an undocumented, undocumented immigrant, they come here.
		They're looking for a job.
		They have to buy everything.
		Everything they need.
		They have to go buy it.
		And not only that, when they get a job, they pay taxes.
		They cannot collect Social Security, but they have to pay it.
		They pay taxes.
		Now you take all of those people and start removing them from the country, and then the rest of them go into hiding.
		They're afraid to go to work.
		Okay.
		So that's another suppression on the economy.
		Thirdly, when you start cutting costs in government, which I'm all about.
		But if you do it too much, you'll throw us into recession.
		And what happens in recession?
		We go out and spend and borrow to get us out of a recession.
		So everything you do to try to save, you waste when you go into recession.
		You have to borrow money, you have to print money, and then we go and borrow another $6 trillion to get us out of a recession.
		That's why the people, you know, like the feds, they make very small changes because they don't want to upset the economy and put us into a costly recession.
		But the people that are in charge, they don't have that kind of expertise.
		They don't have to do that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, Nate, I want to read a story from NBC News that echoes some of the concerns that you raised, particularly when it comes to the idea of a recession.
		This story in NBC saying new tariffs, alarming jobs numbers, and a high-profile firing, a wild week for the Trump economy.
		The U.S. economy had generally been considered in good shape.
		By Friday afternoon, some experts were predicting a recession, saying tariffs putting the squeeze on businesses and consumers while bringing in billions of dollars for the United States government, a job market that is showing major signs of cracking, even as the unemployment rate remains subdued, tech stock surging on Wall Street, fueled by the artificial intelligence boom as many other sectors are falling.
		As Commerce Secretary Howard Luttnick said on social media earlier this week, quote, the Trump economy has finally arrived.
		But what, and I'll skip down a little bit, what happened this week turned out to be more extraordinary than anyone expected.
		And one of the experts quoted in this article is Moody Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi, who says, I'm sending off red flares.
		We're on the precipice of a recession.
		If tariffs keep increasing, I don't know how we avoid a recession.
		Back to your calls on whether you're optimistic or pessimistic about the U.S. economy.
		Janice is in Ocean City, Maryland.
		Good morning, Janice.
unidentified		Hello.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the economy?
unidentified		I'm optimistic.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Why is that?
unidentified		I just think he's one of our greatest presidents that I've ever had.
		I'm 77 years old, and all the lies that went in the last with the last president was unbelievable.
		We never questioned him.
		We didn't even know where he was half the time.
		It's amazing how we're criticizing Trump for doing everything he can for our country.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Janice, how have you experienced the economy under this new administration?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Has anything changed for you?
unidentified		Well, yes.
		Yes.
		Things have gotten better.
		Better.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		How so?
unidentified		I live on Social Security, and it's just been better.
		Everything, everybody's temperament, everyone that lives here is happier.
		They're kinder.
		Now that all the immigrants are getting removed, it's the word, the key word is illegal.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, Janice, since you brought up immigration, I want to read a story that's in Forbes because that crackdown on immigration has it seems to be showing up in the jobs data here.
		The July jobs report casts a new warning on immigration and worker declines.
		That the July jobs report reveals a worrisome decline in the U.S. labor force driven by the Trump administration's immigration policies.
		Labor force and productivity growth determine U.S. economic growth, which is crucial for achieving higher standards of living.
		Immigrants play key roles in the labor force and productivity growth.
		The drop in foreign-born and overall U.S. labor force signals problems for businesses and the U.S. economy.
		Donald Trump expressed his displeasure with the July jobs report by firing the Bureau of Labor Statistics Commissioner.
		The Bureau of Labor Statistics household survey shows a decline of 1.2 million foreign-born workers between January and July 2025, and a drop of 1.7 million since its peak in March of 2025, according to an analysis from the National Foundation for American Policy.
		The study explains that such a decline presents problems for the U.S. economy because immigrants have accounted for over half of American labor force growth in each of the last three decades.
		The July numbers show that the decline in immigrant workers has contributed to the decline in the U.S. labor force.
unidentified		And this was a story in Forbes magazine.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Now, then, let's listen to Dee in Reno, in Reno, Nevada, who is pessimistic about the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Dee.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		Yeah, when Janice is going to pay $5 for her tomato, she's going to call back on another line.
		It's so embarrassing.
		I'm a veteran and I am so embarrassed of what's going on.
		The man is delusional.
		It's starting to hit the fan.
		And this whole scheme of this brainwashing of bringing jobs back is not going to happen.
		If jobs do come back, it's going to be automated.
		It's not going to be people having jobs.
		The one thing in America compared to outsourcing that is so expensive for American labor is medical coverage of employees.
		All these other countries are socialistic medicine.
		The problem here with high labor cost is covering employees with medical care.
		So, no, the Walmart shirt that's made in China and sold here for $5, you're not going to pay $20.
		The man from Texas or wherever he was, he's not going to pay a $20 shirt when he was paying $5.
		So that's what I have to say.
		This is the most embarrassing moment of our country's time.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mike is in Raleigh, North Carolina, and is optimistic about the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Mike.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Cautiously optimistic.
		When the June numbers came out before, they were 140,000, even before that, it seemed like they were a little too high.
		It made me think that maybe we can't fill all of those positions, especially with our labor participation rate.
		But after they revised the numbers, curiously, the day after the Fed meeting, I was actually more optimistic.
		I thought, okay, great.
		The economy is one big thing, but you also have to look at the tech sector as well.
		If AI doesn't meet all expectations and it doesn't think for itself, there's a lot of things that it doesn't do, but it is very useful.
		It could increase productivity for some people, not for everyone.
		I see a pullback on that, maybe.
		I see a lot of manufacturing coming back, and I see people really optimistic about that.
		I'm from one of those towns in western Pennsylvania originally that lost all of its steel and manufacturing within an eight-year period.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And are you seeing any of those AI jobs show up where you are in Raleigh?
unidentified		Yeah, I'm a computer scientist.
		I've been in the field for about 15 years.
		There's always going to be a job for computer scientists.
		There's nothing that AI can do that I can't do.
		And there's plenty of things that I can do that AI cannot, at least generative AI.
		I think we're probably another 20 years away from an AI that matches the intelligence of a five-year-old child.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Mark is in Willard, Ohio, and is pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Mark.
unidentified		Good morning.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You got to turn down the volume on your TV and then go ahead and tell us why you're pessimistic about the economy.
unidentified		Real quick here.
		I'm going to find the remote.
		I'm in the hotel.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		While you do that, we're going to go to somebody else and try to come back to you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Kurt is in Mount Union, Pennsylvania, and is optimistic about the economy.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I'm good, thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Why are you optimistic about the economy?
unidentified		I'm optimistic about the economy because Trump has chosen a path, as far as the tariffs go, that allow us to cause, say, the European Union or China or all the rest that are on the tariff list to open their markets to our economy, which allows us to ship things to them at a fair rate that we didn't have the option to before.
unidentified		So if these markets are opened up, that means more product has to be shipped there because it can be at a lower price.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So Kurt, it's interesting that you bring up tariffs.
		When the Trump administration officials were talking about that disappointing jobs report, it actually came up.
		Steve Moore, Heriton, who's with the Heritage Foundation, not the Trump administration, excuse me, a Heritage Foundation senior fellow, was speaking about the jobs numbers and said, I think that this is all a result of this disappointing number, is a result of all the turmoil over tariffs and the trade wars.
		And that's sort of good news and bad news, because guess what?
		In just the last few weeks, Trump has racked off a lot of victories here.
		As he gets more victories with the Europeans, with Japan, with the U.K., I think that's going to settle things.
		And then that kind of turmoil will be over.
		So I think that this is kind of a blip, and so I'm still kind of very bullish on the U.S. economy, but this is a disappointing number.
		And that was Steve Moore speaking on the Fox News channel about the July jobs numbers.
		Michael is in Altoona, Pennsylvania, and is pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Michael.
unidentified		Good morning.
		A couple things here.
		In Trump's first term, that economy was strong.
		That was handed to him.
		That was Obama and Biden's economy.
		Now, I know COVID had a lot to do with it, but now, look, it's worse.
		Prices of groceries and goods were high, but now they're even higher now.
		Another thing, how can he impose all these tariffs without congressional approval?
		You know, he wants to be a dictator.
		And, you know, it's my way or the highway.
		Two more things.
		He went to the Super Bowl.
		He went to the Daytona 500.
		Air Force One flew him there.
		How much did it cost to taxpayers for the tickets and for all the Secret Service people's wages when he was there?
		Air Force One is flying them to Scotland and all these golf courses.
		The taxpayers are paying for that.
		And he fired all them government workers to cut costs.
		Well, how much can he cut there by not doing that?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Next up is Joanna in Seaside, California, who's pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Joanna.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		I hope you can hear me clearly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I can.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		I am very pessimistic about the economy.
		As far as the unemployment rate, I hope everybody's aware that the deferred resignation for federal employees is going to end at September 30th.
		So October 1, the unemployment rate's going to skyrocket.
		In my opinion, that's basically what I want everybody to know, especially the immigrants.
		They pay almost 90, I don't know, million or billion dollars in taxes.
		They subsidize everything we have.
		That's going to really hit our economy as well if it isn't already.
		So that's basically just keep in mind unemployment is going to skyrocket.
		Lots of federal employees have been removed, fired, resigned.
		It's just, it's going to be a mess.
		Anyway, that's all I had to say, Kimberly.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Joanna mentioned the federal employees removed or resigned or fired.
		And in response to the firing of the BLS Commissioner, President Trump's decision to fire the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, on Friday, Senate Majority Leader Schumer spoke about that decision and the July Jobs Report.
		Let's listen.
chuck schumer ▲ ● ▼		Mr. President, what is a very bad leader?
		What does a bad leader do when they get bad news?
		Shoot the messenger.
		That's just what happened with the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
		Today we got some of the worst labor numbers that we've gotten in a long time.
		We not only, the economy added only a paltry 73,000 jobs last month, but that wasn't the worst of it.
		We learned the economy actually added less than 20,000 jobs each in May and June, following two months of Donald Trump's Liberation Day.
		That's 250,000 fewer jobs more than we thought.
		So of course, that's very bad news for the economy.
		But what does Donald Trump do?
		Instead of trying to fix the economy, he shoots the messenger.
		The woman he fired, the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, passed this Senate 88 to 8.
		Vice President Vance voted for her.
		And now fire her.
		Well, Donald Trump, firing her isn't going to relieve the chaos that you've created with your ramshackle tariff regime.
		Shooting the messenger isn't going to make the jobs that we're losing in health care and clean energy because of your so-called big beautiful bill come back.
		None of this will change.
		The American people will still suffer in exactly the same way that they did an hour ago before you fired the head of the BLS.
		You know, Donald Trump sometimes admires dictators.
		He admires them.
		Well, he sometimes acts just like them.
		It's classic Donald Trump.
		When he gets the news he doesn't like, he shoots the messenger.
		Now, there's a word for this when the Soviet Union does it, when the dictators of the Russians did it.
		They called it Pripisky.
		It meant fire the messenger.
		Don't change your policies.
		As long as Donald Trump keeps firing messengers who bring him truth, he hates truth when he doesn't agree with it.
		As long as he does that, this economy will not improve.
		Inflation and costs to the American people will not go away.
		New jobs will not return to this country.
		He ought to start governing like a leader, not like someone who imitates authoritarian leaders.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Back to your calls on whether you're optimistic or pessimistic about the U.S. economy.
		Let's go to Mitchell in Dorita, Louisiana, who is pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Mitchell.
unidentified		How are you doing this morning?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good, thank you.
unidentified		Well, I don't think that the economy is going to get any better.
		I think it's going to get worse.
		I believe that our now elected president is a charlatan and a showman.
		And I think we're in big trouble.
		And that's all I have to say.
		And thank you very much for taking my call.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Next up is Mark in Coatesville, Pennsylvania, who's optimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Mark.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm going to say it's more, I think it's more nuanced than that.
		I think it's optimistic.
		I'm both optimistic.
		I think it's going to be good for some and bad for others.
		And I think the rich are going to do well, and the poor are going to suffer more.
		I think there's technology coming in with robotics and AI that's probably going to help capital, but it's probably going to be at the expense of certain workers.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And where do you think you're going to land in that, Mark?
unidentified		I'm probably all right.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		What about some of the broader economic data that we saw this week?
		Did any of those numbers jump out to you?
unidentified		Well, I think the issue was it was revision, right?
		And economists really have a hard time predicting the past.
		So I don't know.
		Yeah, I think it's probably true.
		I think as other callers have addressed in the articles you talked about.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, thank you very much for your call.
		Let's hear from Don in Alexandria, Minnesota, who is pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Don.
unidentified		Probably true.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Don, can you make sure that your volume is down on your TV and then please continue?
unidentified		It's off now.
		Great.
		I don't think they know what they're doing, these tariffs.
		He wants to create manufacturing jobs.
		Well, we got 500,000 manufacturing jobs that are open, according to the Wall Street Journal.
		And these tariffs are just going to raise prices.
		You read the Wall Street Journal.
		I mean, that's not a liberal publication.
		And these people did not.
		This one person didn't cause the statistics.
		It took a team of economists to do that.
		And the previous one that was a Trump appointment said this woman has integrity.
		You know, she's not out there.
		And these tariffs are just going to ruin the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Next up is Debbie in Forest Grove, Oregon, who's optimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Debbie.
unidentified		Hi.
		I'm optimistic.
		I think that we need jobs in America, people making jobs, people making money, people spending money.
		The reason that, what was it, the spending, what is it?
		God, the federal Fed guy was talking about it the other day.
		It was 4%.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking about the Federal Reserve?
unidentified		Yeah, he said it was 4% inflation in the Biden administration, and now it's down to 2.5%.
		And that's why Trump keeps saying, why doesn't he lower the interest rate?
		Because it's 0.5% above what their ideal is.
		And they're waiting.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		If I can pause you for a moment, I actually want to play a clip of Jerome Powell from the Federal Reserve's press conference talking about what just you discussed there.
		And then when we're done with that clip, I'd love to hear your thoughts, Debbie.
		Let's listen to Fed Chair Jerome Powell speaking at the Federal Reserve after he announced that there would be no change to interest rate.
		And he also offered his assessment of the economy.
		Let's listen.
jerome powell ▲ ● ▼		Recent indicators suggest that growth of economic activity has moderated.
		GDP rose at a 1.2% pace in the first half of this year, down from 2.5% last year.
		Although the increase in the second quarter was stronger at 3%, focusing on the first half of the year helps smooth through the volatility in the quarterly figures related to the unusual swings in net exports.
		The moderation in growth largely reflects a slowdown in consumer spending.
		In contrast, business investment in equipment and intangibles picked up from last year's pace.
		Activity in the housing sector remains weak.
		In the labor market, conditions have remained solid.
		Payroll job gains averaged $150,000 per month over the past three months.
		The unemployment rate at 4.1% remains low and has stayed in a narrow range over the past year.
		Wage growth has continued to moderate while still outpacing inflation.
		Overall, a wide set of indicators suggests that conditions in the labor market are broadly in balance and consistent with maximum employment.
		Inflation has eased significantly from its highs in mid-2022, but remains somewhat elevated relative to our 2% longer-run goal.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, Debbie, that was Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell talking about those things that you mentioned.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What do you think of his assessment of the economy?
unidentified		I think that it's getting better because, okay, if all of these illegal immigrants have been deported, right, they were getting money through our social programs to live on, and they were spending it.
		They were buying things, which causes inflation, right?
		Now that they have been, I heard millions, I didn't even know it was that much, I thought it was 80,000, had been deported, they're not spending it anymore.
		So maybe that is what's bringing down the inflation because it's a shortage of products is why the price goes up.
		And if there's fewer people, then there's fewer people buying the products, which would make sense that it would go down.
		And the DEI jobs that were in the government, Biden put them everywhere.
		Our forestry leader out here got suspended from his job for hiring somebody who was not DEI approved, which is insane.
		I mean, it seems like he would know what would be needed for somebody who works in the forestry services.
		So were they too qualified?
		I don't know what that is.
		But just yesterday, I heard that Oregon is doing away with DEI because they have had federal monies cut because of it.
		They're not going to pay for the DEI employees because government employees make a lot of money and get a lot of benefits.
		And that's coming out of our tax dollars to pay them.
		So we're paying more taxes to keep these people working.
		And I don't even know what they're doing, but they're placing them all.
		They place them all around the country.
		So those people are gone, which means more tax dollars going in, less being spent on these employees.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Just one more final point on the Federal Reserve, Debbie, before I let you go.
		Just because you raised it, we just listened to Fed Chair Jerome Powell.
		There were also some dissents to that decision about interest rates.
		Here's a story in Fox Business saying, in a dissent not seen in three decades, two Fed governors wanted to cut interest rates.
		And here's why Fed governors Michelle Bowman and Christopher Waller wanted a 25 basis point cut at this week's meeting.
		And it goes on to say that it was the first time in 30 years that two Fed governors dissented from a decision about interest rates.
		The last time was in 1993.
		Bowman and Waller on Wednesday dissented from the Federal Open Market Committee's 9-2 vote to help hold the Fed's benchmark federal funds rate of 4.25% to 4.5%, with both saying they would have supported a 25-bit basis point cut to the key interest rate.
		Bowman said in her latest dissent that the Fed should have cut rates and wrote, quote, inflation has moved considerably closer to our target after excluding temporary effects from tariffs, and the labor market remains near full employment.
		And that interest rate decision, again, was prior to that jobs report that we received on Friday.
		So let's hear from Dave in Bloomington, Indiana, who is pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Dave.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
		A couple things.
		The one, last weekend, we were up at a show by Chicago, and normally there's 300,000 people there.
		They've been counting them for years.
		And there was maybe half or slightly more than half the number of people this year not spending money near as well as usual.
		The number of people and the number amount of money is both down.
		And then the big kicker, last week we went to order.
		We actually make soap for a living, all natural handmade soap.
		And last week, we ordered a bottle of coconut oil or a barrel of coconut oil, which we used rice oil, coconut oil, olive oil to make these soaps.
		And all our essential oils and herbs mainly come from out of the country, along with the coconut oil.
		The coconut oil has gone up since the first of the year.
		It was $425 a barrel, and it went up in March.
		And now it's up to $875 a barrel for coconut oil, which is more than double what we paid six months ago.
		And that's one of our main four ingredients that go in our soap.
		So, no, these tariffs are destroying all the inputs in our soap.
		And I don't know.
		You know why we're getting kind of a little bit older.
		If this continues, we'll be having to charge $10 or $15 for a bar of soap.
		And I don't see that working well for our business.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Lisa is in Capistrano Beach, California, and is optimistic about the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Lisa.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you.
		I feel for that guy that was just on the small business owners that are seeing the costs of their goods go high because of the tariffs.
		However, you know, let's take a basic look at this.
		Canada, for example, 200 to 300% tariffs on our agricultural products going into Canada.
		Can we just have more of a playing field?
		I mean, Senator Tom Cotton wrote an excellent book on the abuses that China has had on our country for decades.
		You know, our intellectual property rights.
		Our companies can't go into China without handing over all of our intellectual property rights.
		You know, we want to do business in a billion-person market.
		You know, we have to bend over.
		My point is, is that I think we need more of a level playing field.
		As far as I'm a local realtor here on the Southern California coast, South Orange County.
		During President Trump's previous presidency, we saw real estate prices go through the roof.
		I think most of us in the country did.
		What kind of happens where we are on the left coast and the right coast, New York and California, we eventually see spread into the rest of the country.
		However, we had 3% interest rates then.
		And I think what everybody saw and learned was that people could actually afford a million-dollar home if the interest rate is 3%.
		It's the cost of money that makes a huge difference.
		Do I like seeing these prices go up?
		No, I'm worried for our kids.
		You know, I was just listening to your to the Axios reporters and had a couple of senators regarding the housing, affordability, and lack of housing.
		Lastly, I just wanted to say all of the developed nations have already decreased their interest rates.
		So we're actually losing billions of dollars every year, $360 billion, basically $1 billion a day by having our interest rates high.
		So I do think it would be nice to have people be able to have more affordability in housing.
		And I am optimistic.
		I think that this is really a transition time.
		I think that there's going to be pain before there's pleasure.
		And the other thing is, is I do believe in cutting the taxes of the people who create jobs.
		I think that it's a trickle-down effect.
		So anyway, I really appreciate the time.
		Thank you so much for your time.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Dolores is in Maryland and is pessimistic about the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Dolores.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Well, I am pessimistic because if you extrapolate into the future, for the next year or two or three during the Trump administration, he's going to wreck our economy.
		He's basically throwing three, I'll say three points, three grenades into our economy.
		Number one, the tariffs.
		They're going to raise prices.
		That's a tax on American citizens.
		The businesses have to pay the tariffs when they import from all these countries, and then they're going to pass that on to us.
		So essentially, the tariffs are a tax on the American people, and it is a repeat of the Smooth Hawley tariffs from the 1930s, I think, or the 20s, when we fell into the Great Depression.
		That is a red flag.
		Just think, Great Depression, tariffs, Luke Hawley, even Sarah Bueller, the movie day, said that.
		Number two, the firings.
		When he came into office, he started firing him and Ilama starts firing thousands and thousands of people.
		That is a repeat of the 2007 when corporate America was firing millions of people, and then people couldn't pay their mortgages.
		So there's going to be some kind of a mortgage crisis, I'm sure.
		When people lose their jobs, they can't make payments.
		They can't pay their credit cards or their mortgages or their rents or anything.
		So that is horrible.
		Number three, this big billionaire bill that they just passed, that is a cut, that's like a backdoor repealing of Obamacare because they're cutting Medicare and they're cutting Medicaid.
		And people will have a hard time paying their medical bills.
		That just end up cuts to food assistance.
		People are going to have a hard time just buying food for their children.
		I don't see how they could have done that.
		And it'll also lower the revenue coming in from the taxes that the billionaires pay.
		So, yeah, I'm pessimistic.
		We're going to have to strap in because buckle your seatbelts, this is going to be a rough ride.
		It's like he's purposely going to wreck our economy.
		If he hadn't done anything, our economy would be fine.
		We'd be riding on Biden's the greatest economic success we've had ever with the most people being hired and all of that.
		But now he's firing people.
		The tariffs, this bill that he's cutting, it's like purposely destroying our economies.
		And that's basically all I have to say.
		And I don't blame Powell for not lowering the interest rate because he can see too, he can extrapolate into the future what all of these actions this administration is going to do to us.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		John is in Navarre, Ohio, and is optimistic about the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Good morning.
		And yes, I am optimistic about the economy.
		I would like to see him replay that.
ed asner ▲ ● ▼		Those videos of President Obama when he was explaining to Americans how their green policies would drive our electric bills to skyrocket.
unidentified		Well, people in Ohio are seeing that right now.
unidentified		The last month and a half, many people's electric bills have doubled.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		John, I'm sorry, I want to make sure I understand you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You're saying something from the Obama administration is causing your electric bills to go up now?
unidentified		Yes, yeah.
ed asner ▲ ● ▼		Because even he even forewarned us before him and the Democrats passed it through the House and Senate and voted on it.
unidentified		And somebody's given me feedback here.
unidentified		And it's not my TV.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I don't think it's on our end.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to go ahead with your point?
ed asner ▲ ● ▼		Flying, so somebody was trying to trash what I'm saying.
unidentified		Anyway, there's no TV on here in my place, and I'm getting feedback.
		So I guess somebody don't want to hear what I have to say.
		But thank you very much.
		Everybody in Ohio, get your bill out.
		And look, cost recovery charges and the charges from your electric, not your supplier, but your electric company in your area.
		They're soaking you for half your bill, not for the energy cost.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Anthony is in New York and is optimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Anthony.
unidentified		Yes, hi.
		Good morning.
		Yeah, I was just wondering.
		It's three years and seven months left.
		The man has been in office for like five months, six months.
		I mean, the economy, can't you give the guy a chance a little bit more?
		But we love the continuation of the singing, dancing, the kung fu fighting, and all that kind of stuff.
		I think it's time maybe to pick up the baby diapers.
		Thank you very much.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		John is in Mechanicville, New York, and is optimistic about the economy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Hi, Kim.
		Thanks.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		I just, excuse me, just want to make a couple of points about the tariffs and things.
		These were long overdue.
		Ever since the 60s, the 50s, globalists have been moving manufacturing out of the country.
		And we were fortunate in a sense we were able to sustain employment in a lot of, I guess, a lot of sectors, okay?
		But then all of a sudden, it did hit us.
		And we lost a lot of jobs.
		And now basically what's happening is, you know, we're a consumer society.
		We're not a manufacturing society.
		Government doesn't really create things.
		They print money and provide the jobs and cause inflation.
		So what do you do?
		When do we protect ourselves?
		The only logical solution are tariffs, okay?
		Tariffs are reciprocal and they're protective.
		If you want to bring manufacturing back into this country, you know, you're going to need a tariff to stimulate production.
		All right.
		And for example, take India.
		India has a 100% tariff on Harley-Davidsons.
		All right.
		And I mean, we can't sell them in India, but they can come over here and sell their products over here for a pittance.
		The EU, they're supposed to be our friends.
		Okay.
		They can lower their tariffs, but they still have non-tariff barriers, and they have the value-added tax, and they make it difficult for American manufacturers to send their goods.
		Now, given all this, bear with me, please, what happens?
		Employers in this country and donors, they want low-paying jobs, so they import all these immigrants at a time when we have serious, super serious problems in health care and education and housing.
		They import 15 to 20 million immigrants.
		And my father was an immigrant.
		And when he came over here, he was vetted.
		And he had to work for jobs and jobs that were low-paying.
		All I'm saying is, I think that's what's happening: we have to restructure everything.
		We have to make it a point to protect ourselves.
		All right.
		And we have to be treated fairly.
		Now, I know a lot of people despise and hate Trump, but somebody has to do this.
		Somebody has to take bold and decisive action to protect this country.
		And the only thing I can say.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		If I could pause you, because I want to have you hang on for a moment, because at the beginning of your comment, you mentioned that it's pretty early in the administration and that the economy needs some time to respond to some of these changes that the president is instituting.
		I want to play a clip of National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett from outside the White House on Wednesday, which was right after some GDP numbers came out.
		And he was praising those numbers and Trump's economic policies.
		Let's listen to that.
kevin hassett ▲ ● ▼		It's really one of the best GDP announcements or releases that you could imagine because there's blockbuster growth way above expectation.
kevin hassett ▲ ● ▼		And there's also a real, real, almost collapse in inflation.
unidentified		It went down by about a percent and a half all the way down to 2.1%, which is the Fed's target.
kevin hassett ▲ ● ▼		And so to have high growth with low inflation and also high income growth, personal income growth was 3%.
unidentified		That's just like about a sweet spot for a GDP release.
kevin hassett ▲ ● ▼		And I will add that all of this happened while $127 billion in tariffs was raised, which is clearly not harming the American consumer.
kevin hassett ▲ ● ▼		And we've been downsizing government in order to be more fiscally responsible.
unidentified		70,000 federal jobs have been reduced at 5%.
unidentified		There was a 5% reduction in federal government spending while all this was going on.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Now, John, here you have one of the top White House advisors taking credit for this economy as it exists right now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Where do you draw that line in particular?
unidentified		Well, Kim, thanks for asking that question.
		I just, I think, and this is my opinion, because you have some flattering statistics, okay, and I'm trying to be objective here, that, you know, point to growth in the economy, low inflation, low unemployment.
		You know, I don't necessarily think that that trickles down and provides everybody with increased employment.
		Just by the same token, I don't think, you know, some unflattering statistics with regard to Trump is going to necessarily predict doom.
		I think what you do need, you need a pattern of steady growth, low to moderate inflation.
		And I think you need to see this over a long period of time.
		Somebody has to do something.
		I mean, we're $37 billion in debt, or I'm sorry, trillion dollars in debt.
		And we have to reestablish ourselves and we have to promote job growth here in this country.
		And at the same time, I think immigrants are essential, but you've got to bring them in in an orderly fashion, vet them, and then employ them.
		And again, this is important.
		They take up much more in resources than they give at the moment.
		Over time, I think they'll be definitely contributing to make this nation great.
		But you've got to do it in an intelligent fashion.
		So I think that's what Trump's doing.
		And a lot of people, they hate him so much, it just clouds their judgment, and they're going to say, you know, he's only been in office six months.
		I think he needs a chance to show what he can do.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Tim is in Syracuse, New York, on our line for folks who are pessimistic about the economy.
		Good morning, Tim.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		You know, I've been a first-time caller, and a lot of times I've written a lot of letters over the last five or six years.
		And one thing that I've realized when I say I'm pessimistic, you know, one thing we know was when COVID came in, and we do not manufacture anything.
		So approximately 80,000 factories have been closed, and we really depend on all these countries to supply us our goods.
		Now, the second part of this project is the services.
		Today, corporate America is offshoring a lot of, I call it, service jobs.
		My podiatrist, his receptionist is in Costa Rica.
		She gets paid $30 a week.
		But we're offshoring jobs and jobs.
		What people are talking about are the service level jobs that everyone's offshoring.
		A small little factory in upstate New York laid off 30 people out of 70, and those jobs don't go away.
		Those accounts, payables, receivables, all those, the marketing, the IT departmenters in India, all these jobs are being offshored.
		And we talk about the 2020 plan, then we talk about the 2030 plan.
steve in florida ▲ ● ▼		The concern I have is if you look through all from Intel to Cisco Systems to Hewlett-Packard Enterprises to Google and Yahoo, all the major top companies, their profits they're showing is because they've offshored labor.
unidentified		They've taken someone who was making $70,000, $80,000 a year, and now we're paying a fraction of that.
		Samsung, I can list millions of companies.
		It's trending.
		The problem is we need to take care of America first.
		And the reality is, is what's happening, and no one's talking about the one caller talked about the people losing their jobs.
		We need allegiance in this country.
		We need to bond together.
		We need people.
		No one's talking about everyone taking a pay cut to take the deficit down.
		No one's willing to do what they need to do.
		I believe Americans love the $270 36-inch TV.
		They love the free $3,000 Apple phone for free.
		The problem is, if our president doesn't get a grip on this, like one caller was talking about more layoffs coming, you're absolutely right.
		We had layoffs in October from one company.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So Tim, we are just running out of time for this segment, but I appreciate your comments.
		I want to read two comments that we received on social media before we wrap up.
		One from James, who said on X that they are optimistic about the economy.
		The economy is booming, and my current employer just gave all employees a 401k bonus.
		Customers are buying products even with increased cost.
		The Trump economy is working.
		And then Agaca says, I am 100% pessimistic about the affordable housing economy.
		If real estate developer Trump hasn't used his industry knowledge to make housing affordable now, he never will.
		Well, thanks to everyone who called in this hour.
		Coming up later on Washington Journal, author Anna Merlin, a senior reporter from Mother Jones, will join us to discuss conspiracy theories in U.S. politics.
		But up next, Real Clear Politics senior elections analyst Sean Trendy will join us to discuss political news of the week and preview the upcoming midterm elections.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Tonight on C-SPAN's Q&A, technology reporter Nicole Coby, author of The Long History of the Future, talks about how technology evolves and discusses why many predicted technologies, including driverless and flying cars, smart cities, hyperloops, and autonomous robots, haven't become a reality.
nicole kobie ▲ ● ▼		If you've ever tried to build anything, you know, whether it's like an IKEA cabinet or, you know, something a little bit more complicated than that that doesn't come with instructions, it's very difficult to build something.
		So engineers who are working on these kinds of problems, you know, whether it's driverless cars or flying cars or, I don't know, even sillier ideas like Hyperloop, they're taking science that we know works and they're applying it to the real world, to a physical object.
		And then they're trying to build that.
		And it's kind of in the details where things start to fall down a bit.
		Kind of in, you know, how you actually make it happen, the materials you choose, the business model, all of that can just kind of take something that sort of works in the lab or works in an academic paper and just make it completely fall apart, even though, you know, people have spent maybe 80 years on an idea.
unidentified		Technology reporter Nicole Kobe tonight at 8 Eastern on C-SPAN's QA.
		You can listen to Q&A in all of our podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts, or on our free C-SPAN Now app.
		Weekends bring you Book TV, featuring leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books.
		Emory University professor Karita Brown documents the history of educational freedom and justice among African Americans, from segregated schools to historically black colleges and universities, in her book, The Battle for the Black Mind.
		Former Texas Republican Senator Phil Graham and economist Donald Bordeaux share their book, The Triumph of Economic Freedom, where they talk about the history of government involvement in the U.S. economy and argue that it has had an overall negative effect.
		National political reporters Josh Dawsi, Tyler Pager, and Isaac Arnsdorf offer a behind-the-scenes account of the 2024 presidential election that sent Donald Trump back to the White House for a second non-consecutive term after a litany of criminal and civil investigations and two assassination attempts in their book, 2024.
		Watch Book TV every weekend on C-SPAN2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at booktv.org.
		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		We're joined now by Sean Trendy, who is a senior elections analyst at Real Clear Politics, joining us from Columbus, Ohio.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much for joining us to chat about our week in politics and also the upcoming midterm elections, which are getting closer by the day.
		But before we get to that, Congress is in recess and was sent home early many reports because the GOP leadership did not want to make any votes on the release of Epstein files.
		And you have a post on X about this last week saying, I have a pretty strong prior that if there were anything particularly damning of Trump in the Epstein files, it would have been released or leaked in the previous administration.
		This is a story that will not leave President Donald Trump alone or Republicans alone.
		But I wonder if you can tie it to the upcoming midterm elections and how big of a deal you think the story is going to be come November 2026.
unidentified		Yeah, it's interesting because it's kind of a problem of the administration's own making.
		This is something that Republicans had been flogging as an issue for years.
		They wanted to see these files released and now faced with the reality of being able to being able to release the file, they've kind of backtracked on it.
		And whatever you think is in the files, and just to clarify, I don't know.
		I just kind of have a starting point of what my assumption is.
		Whatever's in it, something's caused the administration not to want to release it.
		And so it just looks bad.
		And Democrats have proved more than willing to play hardball with this issue to kind of, you know, try to tie it around the administration's neck.
		It's something that splits the conservative coalition right now at its core, though.
		That's the real danger for the Republicans, is that this is the first issue I've really seen where Trump's own base seems to be stopping and thinking, hey, we were kind of really promised that this was going to get out there.
		Why isn't it happening?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Republican Representative Tom Massey of Kentucky, who has gone against the president on many issues, it's worth saying.
		But he's now sponsored a resolution to release all of the Epstein files.
		And he released this ad last week.
		Let's watch.
unidentified		I'm sure you've seen the attack ads by now.
		Look, it's simple.
		They're attacking me because I'm holding the Washington machine accountable.
		Whether it was being the lone no vote against Pelosi's $2 trillion COVID bailout or just this month voting against adding $4 trillion more to the national debt.
		And now I'm leading the charge to force a vote to release the complete Epstein files.
		I'm Thomas Massey and I prove this message because I'm not folding.
		I'm fighting and I'm just getting started.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sean, what do you think of that ad and how this is playing in the narrative so far?
unidentified		Yeah, so Massey's an interesting creature in Washington, very conservative, but also very willing to stick to principles.
		And as you mentioned, that's kind of gotten him in the crosshairs of the Republican leadership in the Trump administration because he's taken some tough votes against the party.
		And so they've been coming after him, hoping to knock him out in a primary challenge.
		This is a kind of shrewd move by Massey to try to tie himself to that MAGA base on an issue where there's a little bit of disappointment with President Trump and the way the House Republicans are moving forward with things.
		So it's a good ad.
		It's a good position for him to take.
		We'll see if it overcomes the accusations of disloyalty to the president that have been dogging him since his votes on the BBB earlier this year.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Speaking of the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, as reported here in NBC News, both parties are planning to make the sweeping tax cut and spending measure an issue in this year's gubernatorial races, in this case in Virginia and New Jersey.
		But I'm curious as to your thoughts about how it's going to shape the midterm elections, because there was a new Marquette Law School poll showing 59% of all adults disapprove of the legislation, or I guess the law now.
		Democrats disapprove at 94%, while 79% of Republicans say they support it.
		65% of Independents oppose.
		How do you see this new law affecting the midterms?
		And what kind of framing do you think Republicans should use around it?
unidentified		Well, it was a tough vote.
		You could see the way that it went through Congress, the amount of kind of horse trading and pushing and shoving that needed to be done to keep the Republican caucus in line.
		Obviously, some of the tax cuts are unpopular.
		Some are very popular.
		But some of the spending cuts, spending cuts are always difficult in this country, and this is no exception.
		So I think this is definitely going to be an issue in the midterm elections.
		Republicans are going to try to counter and say, as some of your optimistic callers in the last segment were emphasizing, that, hey, you may not like the particulars of this bill, but the proof's in the pudding and the economy is going well, assuming the economy is still going well in the fall.
		That's how Republicans are going to try to frame it.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		The Driple C, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, announced that they're planning to go on the offense in 35 critical districts in play using this new law as sort of their main point.
		Here's House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries last month kind of test driving some of the messaging around the One Big Beautiful Bill Act to the Republicans' response to the other issue we just respond, the Epstein files.
		Let's listen to him.
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		But the reality is that it's all connected from the standpoint of Donald Trump, his administration, and House Republicans have delivered nothing more than a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, and for the billionaires.
		They've passed massive tax breaks for their billionaire donors.
		And in the context of this Jeffrey Epstein scandal and their refusal to share information to the American people, despite promising to do so, one must ponder the question, what are they hiding from the American people and what billionaires, what well-connected donors, what elite people are they trying to protect?
		Why haven't Republicans released the Epstein files to the American people?
		It's reasonable to conclude that Republicans are continuing to protect the lifestyles of the rich and shameless, even if that includes pedophiles.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What do you think of that messaging there on behalf of Democrats?
unidentified		Well, I think it's a potentially powerful message.
		There's not necessarily a big connection between the Epstein files and the Big Beautiful bill, but you certainly see how just at kind of a visceral gut level that connection can be made.
		I think there's absolutely going to be a centerpiece of the Democratic messaging to try to pry Republicans away from their gains with working class voters in the last few cycles.
		That look, they've been in office and most of their legislation has been beneficial to wealthy Americans.
		And I think that argument about the Epstein files kind of ties into it.
		Notice that it's not even a direct assault on Donald Trump with this.
		It's what I think is a more plausible theory that there are more shoes to drop with rich and connected people in those files that are being protected.
		So I think it's a good message and it makes sense, as far as political messages go, it makes sense and it's something that's going to resonate with people.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There's a story in CNN.
		Democrats are far more motivated than Republicans for next year's midterms, according to a CNN poll saying that Democrats are far more energized than Republicans about participating in next year's midterms, but deeply negative perceptions of the Democratic Party and its office holders raise questions about the party's ability to capitalize on that energy.
		Overall, 72% of Democrats and Democratic-aligned registered voters say they are extremely motivated to vote in next year's congressional election, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS.
		That outpaces by 10 points deep motivation among the same group just weeks before the 2024 presidential election and stands 22 points above the share of Republican and Republican-leaning voters who feel the same way now.
		Looking at a chart that we have here about some of the Senate races coming up in 2026, there are 13 Democratic seats that are up in 2026 on the Senate side, 22 Republican seats.
		Are there particular races that you are watching or that you view as particularly competitive?
unidentified		Yeah, although there are a lot of seats open, the reality is that most of those seats are in safely red or safely blue states that are extremely unlikely to change absent some type of national economic or foreign policy catastrophe.
		I think most people are focused in on kind of two seats for Democrats and two seats for Republicans.
		And then there's a few at the extremes.
		We have the North Carolina Senate race where Republicans are struggling to hold an open seat.
		We have Susan Collins in Maine who is constantly on the watch list and yet constantly manages to pull it out.
		And then on the Democratic side, I think the two key races are the Senate race in Georgia and then the open Senate seat in Michigan.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You've also written about that Senate seat in North Carolina in particular with GOP Senator Tom Tillis retiring.
		Former Democratic Governor Roy Cooper announced his candidacy last week and a GOP-backed group has released this ad against him.
		Let's look at that ad.
unidentified		He says he's a moderate, but Roy Cooper's record tells a radically different story.
		Higher taxes, sanctuary cities, and a radical gender ideology.
		Cooper vetoed a bill to protect girls' sports, vetoed a bill to ban gender transition surgeries for minors, puberty blockers, double mastectomies, mutilating children.
		Cooper stood with the woke left, endangering our kids.
		And when it came to keeping violent criminals off our streets, Cooper said no to ICE.
		Not once, not twice, but three times.
		Illegal immigrant sex offenders, kidnappers, violent predators, let go.
		Because of Roy Cooper's veto, Cooper vetoed tax relief for middle-class families and small businesses.
		Higher taxes, more illegals, a woke agenda.
		Roy Cooper masquerades as a moderate, but he's just another radical D.C. liberal in disguise.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sean, the headline for your piece about this race in Real Clear Politics says, most vulnerable Senate seat just became a lot more vulnerable.
unidentified		Why is that?
		Well, Governor Cooper was sort of the candidate the Republicans didn't really want to get into this race.
		He's someone who managed to win election as governor twice while Donald Trump was carrying the state.
		Now, they weren't landslide wins.
		This isn't a case of an overwhelmingly popular governor, but he's a successful politician in the state.
		He's going to be hard to beat for the GOP.
		Now, you've kind of, with that ad, you see what some of his vulnerabilities could be.
		He was a relatively liberal governor for North Carolina, but he has this brand of moderation.
		He has a very moderate demeanor that I think is going to make it tough for Republicans to push through.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We're going to be taking your calls and questions for Sean Trendy of Real Clear Politics.
		Our line for Democrats is 202-748-8000.
		For Republicans, 202-748-8001.
		And for Independents, 202-748-8002.
		Let's start with Tony in Athens, in Athens, Tennessee, on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Tony.
doug in kansas ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'd like to speak about this Epstein file that they're making such a big deal out of.
unidentified		The Democrats had control of all this information for four years, and now they're acting like the Republicans are trying to hide something.
unidentified		What's the deal?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sean, you kind of touched on this earlier.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Would you like to give additional thoughts?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, we all have theories about what's in the Epstein file, and my going theory is that there's stuff that hurts both parties, and that's why no one wants to release it.
		But it gets back to my initial point that Republicans had kind of raised this issue as something, and conservatives, not just Republicans, had raised this issue as something that was being used to protect elites.
		And now it's kind of a turnabout as fair play.
		The Republicans hold power.
		They could release it, and they're not releasing it.
		So Democrats are kind of hammering the same issue.
		It is a little bit cynical, but that is politics.
		And a lot of people have short memories, and that's why I think this is potentially something that has some resonating value as we move forward.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Ken is in Winter Haven, Florida on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Ken.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		I think the Epstein situation is just a big mega smokescreen while he tries to continue militarizing every agency in the U.S. government.
		I mean, even if Trump is over the Epstein files, I don't think it's going to mean doodly squat in the end because, you know, no matter what happens, he could just pardon himself or anybody else.
		And, you know, and the Democrats keep talking about, you know, we're going to do this and that in the midterms.
		But frankly, I'll be surprised if there's even midterm elections.
		I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Trump administration kind of instigates some kind of major violence somewhere with all these militarized government agencies so that he could declare martial law and no midterm elections.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So Ken, that's a pretty strong prediction there.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sean Trendy, what are your thoughts about Ken's concerns there?
unidentified		I mean, I think it's always good to be vigilant in society and to keep an eye on government.
		You know, we had midterm elections during President Trump's first term.
		My expectation is we're going to have them.
		My strong expectation is we're going to have them in this term.
		But I can't criticize people for keeping an eye on the government.
		I think it's an interesting point raised about the Epstein files as a smokescreen.
		You do have to remember that Donald Trump, whatever else you may think about him, is a master of media and controlling the narrative.
		And there is an argument, I think, to be made that he uses some of these issues to keep people focused on the shiny object.
		I think it's a little bit of a dangerous game here, though, because as I think you can tell from some of the questions, people are focused in.
		It's something that they potentially understand.
		One final thing, President Trump could pardon himself for federal crimes, but a lot of the potential crimes are state law crimes for which he would not be able to pardon himself.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Patricia is in Boynton Beach, Florida on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Patricia.
unidentified		Yes.
		It's very interesting about Zelaine Maxwell.
		They need to look into her father.
		President Trump.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sean, make sure you turn down the volume on your TV, please.
unidentified		Okay, just a moment.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Patricia is in blank.
		All right, we're waiting on that.
		Let's go to BJ in Cleveland, Ohio on our line for independence.
		Go ahead, BJ.
unidentified		Thank you.
		I'm going to be 95 in October.
		I've been around quite a long time, seen a lot of things.
		I think Donald Trump has been a remarkable president because of his businesses that he had, construction and all that.
		He knows financing.
		He knows the game.
		But he recently went to the Federal Reserve Bank, Federal Reserve, and that's who controls this country.
		It's the money that controls this country.
		It controls the politics.
		Rothschild said it years ago, I don't care who runs the government as long as I control the money.
		So whoever controls the money is outdoing the political parties and running this government.
		Thank you for your time.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, since BJ brought it up, Sean, what did you think of President Trump's visit to the Federal Reserve and Jerome Powell, as well as his response to their interest rate decision this past week?
unidentified		Yeah, the presidents always want, at least in the short term, to have the Fed lowering rates because people like lower interest rates and they like the idea of more money flowing through because people like money.
		It's a tough thing because part of what has made our economy in the post-war era so strong is that the Fed fought really hard and there was a long fight over having Fed independence from politicians so that they can really just focus on making sure inflation is low and employment is high.
		So these visits from Trump to the Fed are clearly meant to try to pressure Fed policymakers.
		And anytime the president shows up in your office building, you obviously take the call or take the meeting and I'm sure Powell listened intently.
		But in the backdrop, I think there's just some unease about the potential for a lessening of Fed independence and making things like the money supply more subject to political whims, which in the long run really can lead to counterproductive things like inflation.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Eric is in Palm Beach, Florida on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Eric.
unidentified		Thank you, Sean.
		It's nice to have you as a guest.
		Conhan, nice to get through.
		A little bit ago, you were talking about two particular Senate races that might be the most contested of all.
		I'd like to go back to that topic and name two that you didn't mention that are of interest to me.
		And maybe you could go into a little bit of length if they would be contested or you don't see it that way.
		One would be Georgia and John Oscar, I think we say his name, Oscar Osoff.
		I think he represents the woke Democratic agenda that you played with that North Carolina governor candidate.
		And, you know, he supported the Biden and that whole movement and stuff.
		And he's lingering on with that kind of legacy.
		And I wonder if he's vulnerable to a flipback in Georgia.
		I think those elections are pretty close.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What do you think, Sean?
unidentified		Yeah, the Georgia Senate race is clearly the Republicans' best pickup opportunity.
		That's a Senate race that Democrats won during the kind of COVID era or it was the COVID election of 2020 when Osoff won that seat in a special runoff where Donald Trump had kind of come in and given the impression to Republicans that there's a chance their vote wouldn't count.
		And you saw depressed turnout in Republican areas.
		He's not going to do that this time around.
		So it's a state that swung rightward from 2020.
		Donald Trump did well there in 2024.
		You have Republican statewide office holders.
		Osoff is young, and he is fairly liberal for that state.
		I think it's going to be a very tough race.
		Donald Trump's job approval rating, it's not great, but it's not catastrophic.
		So I think especially if Republicans can entice one of their statewide office holders into the race, that's going to be the toughest hold for Democrats by far.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We've spoken quite a bit about the Senate races coming up in the midterms, but when it comes to the House races, there's also quite a bit of controversy around redistricting.
		I'm looking at a story in the Texas Tribune because Texas is one of the states looking at redistricting.
		Newsom, who's the governor of California, will move to redraw the California map if Texas redistricts, teeing up a national fight.
		The governor plans to go through the legislature to usher in a map with more Democratic seats if Texas tilts its map to the right, according to a person with knowledge of Newsom's thinking.
		What role do you expect these redistricting fights to play leading up to and in the midterms?
unidentified		Yeah, it's crazy that we are in 2026 or 2025 going into 2026 and we're still trying to figure out what the map is going to look like.
		Obviously, Texas has Republicans potentially gaining five seats in the state.
		And when you have the House of Representatives like we have it today, where it's decided by you got a three-seat majority for the Republican Party, the potential of putting five seats into the safe GOP column is pretty significant.
		You have redistricting litigation in Wisconsin.
		You have redistricting going on in Utah right now with potential court-drawn maps hurting Republicans.
		And it now seems like everyone is talking about this Texas move setting off a firestorm with California looking to potentially redistrict maybe New York or New Jersey.
		And then some other GOP states now starting to consider adding on with Missouri and New Hampshire dipping their toes in the water.
		So it could have a pretty significant impact on how these midterm elections play out with control of the House being so close right now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And it looks like we have Patricia back from Boynton Beach, Florida on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Hello again, Patricia.
unidentified		Hi.
		I'm so glad I've got back on.
		I had to register as a Democrat because in the state of Florida, you're not allowed to vote in primaries if you're an independent.
		So I'm calling on the Democratic line.
		But I'm curious, you know, as to why they haven't investigated Ghurlaine Maxwell's father, who is so, so connected to the Mossad, to the Saudis, to everybody.
		I mean, you know, I've even heard that, you know, there was a Saudi that he was providing people, clients.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So Patricia, Sean focuses more so on politics and elections.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Did you have any questions about the midterms, or is your question more about how this story is going to impact the political landscape more broadly?
unidentified		Yeah, I'm interested in how this, you know, what they aren't letting out.
		Sean?
		Yeah, I think what we're getting from these callers is two important things.
		First, this is something that does resonate with average voters.
		Or, you know, I guess this is C-SPAN, so you just by definition, you're a little bit above average.
		But this is a story that everyone can get.
		And there are a lot of kind of tantalizing threads and side information out there for people to kind of hold on to.
		So it's what's going to keep this story going and kind of continue to raise the questions of, well, what are people hiding?
		And your earlier caller was right.
		It's something that both parties have refused to do.
		But Donald Trump's in power.
		He holds the power right now.
		Republicans control Congress.
		And so you're going to see that message just hit again and again because it's just such a clean story Democrats can tell right now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Ronald is in Tacoma Park, Maryland on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Ronald.
unidentified		Yes, thank you for taking my call.
		I served as the president of the National Association of Blacks and Solar, and I'd like to ask your guests: why isn't anyone talking about the unholy alliance between the fossil fuel industry and the politics in this country?
		Donald Trump, as he was running as a candidate in 2024, had a meeting with the fossil fuel industry and indicated if they put up $1 billion that they could do whatever they wanted to do.
		Now, the impact of this has been the repeal of the investment tax credits for the clean energy industry.
		And $133 billion, $131,000,000, which has been invested by 177 foreign corporations.
		My question to your guests is: why isn't anybody talking about the fact that 245 of these projects were slated for red districts?
		$109,870,000,000 have been invested already, not in the U.S. tax dollars from taxpayers, but by far 177 corporations, only 20 billion in blue districts.
		Now, the Democrats aren't talking about this because Biden had a strategy.
		He put most of this money.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I think I understand your point.
		I want to raise, bring up an article from the New York Times.
		It's back in February, but it gets at what you're mentioning there.
		Trump is freezing money for clean energy.
		Red states have the most to lose.
		About 80% of manufacturing investments spurred by a Biden-era climate law have flowed to Republican districts.
		Efforts to stop federal payments are already causing pain.
		This was a story from back in February.
		Obviously, during the passage of the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, there was a rollback included of some of those Inflation Reduction Act clean energy tax credits and grants and things like that.
		Sean Trendy, do you think that that is going to be something that comes up in the midterms or is going to be an issue?
unidentified		Well, I think there's two things.
		The first is that, yeah, this is part of why the vote on the Big Beautiful bill was so difficult for Republicans to get through, is that it turned out that a lot of Republicans were going to have to vote against money flowing into their districts.
		And that's something that absolutely the Democratic point opponents are going to make hay about during the or about during the fall.
		Now, the question of why Democrats don't raise this louder, it's a frustrating thing, I think, for people who are concerned about the climate and climate change, which is that it's just over the years been proved that it's not an issue that has a lot of kind of resonance with average people or with your typical voter.
		It's something that maybe it should have more.
		It's something that maybe is so important that Democrats should fight about it, even if it doesn't necessarily translate to votes.
		But the cold political reality has been when you look at the issues that people rank from most to least important, climate change tends to rank relatively poorly.
		People want to hear a message instead about jobs in the economy.
		And that's the message that Democrats are going to hammer next fall.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Akiva is in Clifton, New Jersey on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Akiva.
unidentified		Good morning, Mr. Turnby.
		And I only have a few questions for you about the midterm elections in 2026.
		First question: In 1990, I was told that George H.W. Bush was a fairly popular president and we had a strong economy.
		So how come, even if the economy is strong and Trump becomes more popular next year, it is likely, very likely, that his party will just lose even seven seats, probably more or less, and probably lose a cent or two.
dr alfredo quinones-hinojosa ▲ ● ▼		And my second question of three is: how come you didn't mention a few competitive house races in states such as Pennsylvania and Colorado?
unidentified		And my third question for you is: I asked my dad, could a Republican win Senate race in Oregon or Virginia and Colorado?
dr alfredo quinones-hinojosa ▲ ● ▼		And he says, not in Oregon, not in Virginia, but certainly, surely, a Republican can win in Colorado.
unidentified		Is Colorado beyond reach for Republicans when it comes to the U.S. Senate next year, or is Colorado a state that you believe will be won or could be won by a Republican next year?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right, that was a lot of questions, Akiva.
		Sean, I'm going to recap for you just because I wrote them down so we could capture all of them.
		So the first question was: How, even with a strong economy, why there's a risk of Trump or GOP losses in midterm elections?
unidentified		Boy, you know, these are great questions, and that is one of the big questions that political scientists have actually written a bunch of articles on, which is why does the president's party always lose seat in midterm elections?
		If you go back to the Civil War, there have been three elections where the president's party has gained seats.
		It's 1934, 1998, and 2002.
		All three of those years featured exceedingly popular presidents.
		But even when you have kind of middling popular presidents, presidents with job approvals in the 50s, they tend to lose a few seats.
		There's theories that Americans try, just kind of in our nature, try to counterbalance power.
		There's theories that you get kind of a surge in support for the president's party in an election, and then it kind of draws back or declines by the midterm election, kind of like people who are not necessarily Republicans, but Trump voters aren't as likely to turn out in the midterm.
		But I would be misrepresenting myself if I said I had like the clear killer answer, because even people who have studied this for 40 years don't necessarily agree on what the answer is, but it's very real.
		The second question about, oh, go ahead.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was just going to recap it.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And for folks in our audience who maybe didn't catch it, this was about competitive House races, particularly in Pennsylvania and Colorado.
unidentified		Yeah.
		So even with the maps being redrawn, there aren't a whole lot of competitive seats out there.
		That's the one thing I think that Republicans really have going for them.
		what Democrats had going for them when they were on the defensive in 2022 and 2024, which is, you know, you get a handful.
		And so yes, there are some competitive, there's a particularly a competitive seat, Colorado 8, in kind of the Denver area that's gone back and forth.
		It's been decided by fairly narrow margins.
		And I think the Republican who picked it up in 2024, that is a seat that a Democratic majority goes through.
		If Republicans manage to hold on to that seat, it becomes a very bad sign for Democrats, their prospects for the House.
		Pennsylvania, the Republicans picked up a few seats in 2024.
		It's a map that was drawn to be kind of not necessarily favorable to Democrats, but maximizing their coalition in the state.
		And so you've got these freshman Republicans that are going to try to hold on.
		There's a seat in Harrisburg that the Republican incumbent has always been kind of tenuous in his hold.
		And so again, if you get a good Democratic year, that's exactly right.
		That's where the path to a Democratic majority flows through.
		If we get on election night and the Republican in Pennsylvania's 10th district is looking like he's going to hold on, that's a very bearish sign for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And then the last question was about whether Colorado is beyond reach for the GOP in terms of the Senate.
unidentified		I think if you look at Colorado, you know, that was a state that in 2014, so two cycles ago, Republicans knocked off a fairly popular Democratic incumbent.
		Now they had a very strong Republican challenger with Corey Gardner.
		Since then, though, the state has moved leftward.
		It's moved leftward in its presidential politics.
		It's moved leftward at the state level.
		It's been kind of attracted a lot of liberal people living in the mountain west in the Midwest as a place to sort of land.
		When you look at Donald Trump's performance in a presidential election where he performed relatively well in terms of the popular vote, Colorado, I think, has just moved too far to the left for Republicans to really have a good shot at knocking off John Hickenlooper, who was a reasonably popular incumbent senator for the state.
		But great, great questions.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Duel is in Lakanto, Florida, on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Dewell.
unidentified		Yes.
john in unknown ▲ ● ▼		In regards to the $1.2 billion that Trump exerted from 13 law firms, some of which was in cash and others for future pro bono work, will they be able to use that money to contest the 2026 midterms and even further into the next presidential election?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Duel, I want to make sure that I understand your question, that we understand your question clearly.
		Are you saying that the law firms with which that have decided to make settlements with Trump or the Trump administration, would they be using those funds to fight the outcome of the midterm elections?
		Is this what you're asking?
unidentified		Yes.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sean, do you have a response to that?
unidentified		So I don't know down in the details of which firms settled money or what the exact particulars are.
		What I think we do know and what we've seen ever since 2000 is this kind of increasing reliance upon law firms and legal teams to settle election disputes.
		There's no doubt that election law is something that's become increasingly litigated every cycle.
		Both parties are loaded for bear, if need be, in 2026.
		And a lot of the big law firms do sponsor pro bono activities to try to litigate these election issues.
		And there's a variety of issues, reasons for that.
		Theological, it's a good opportunity to give younger lawyers a chance to stand up in court when they wouldn't otherwise get to do so.
		But I think, excuse me, I think the core of the question gets to are big firms and are these elections going to be legally contested?
		And I think the expectation, given how things have moved over the past few cycles, has to be yes.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's hear from Kelly in Clemens, North Carolina on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Kelly.
unidentified		Hi.
		I wanted to make a comment first about the Federal Reserve.
		It is completely independent.
		It's actually controlled in a little part of London by the main banks there.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Where are you getting that information, Kelly?
unidentified		I got that information from books that I've read.
		And it also comes from people who are financial that I have watched, and that's where it comes from.
		The main central bank is in a little part of London.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So the Federal Reserve of the United States is based here in Washington, D.C.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		But did you have a broader question for Sean Trendy of Real Clear Politics, Kelly?
unidentified		Yes, I did have a question with the Epstein real quick.
		It'll be quick, so I just wanted to see what you thought about the fact that the reason Trump is in the Epstein files is because back when they had the first time he went to prison in Florida there, Trump was helping the victims at that time, and it is reported and in the papers.
		And then this time, Trump is also helping the victims again.
		He's not in there as a pedophile.
		He is in there to help the victims.
		And they are also at this time finding children everywhere that have been sexually abused.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sean?
unidentified		Well, again, I think we can talk about the politics of it.
		We can talk about the reality of it.
		The reality of it is we don't know exactly what's in those files.
		And I've heard theories all over the place.
		And so I guess it is worth mentioning with the things that I had earlier on.
		Those are just my theories.
		No one really knows.
		And that's part of what makes this something, though, again, that's resonating.
		We're getting so many calls about this.
		This is a story that has a lot of kind of appeal to everyday Americans.
		And that's why it's going to continue to float around.
		I'll just add: I don't think the Fed is controlled by a bank in London.
		There's a lot that goes into getting confirmed as a member of the Federal Open Market Committee or the Board of Governors.
		And I think it's fair to say our Fed is fairly independent.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Philip is in Cincinnati, Ohio on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Philip.
unidentified		Yes, thank you both for taking my call.
		Sean, I guess the question I would pose to you at some point here and in midterms and in the general election, Democrats are going to have to define a leader.
		My example would be the California governor who is addressing or kind of off on offense addressing what the Texas governor is doing in the redistricting.
		So if as an independent, I feel like there's no one coming out of the Democratic Party nipping at Trump's heels.
		At the end of the term, Trump can't run again.
		At this point, we don't know if he will, but legally cannot run again.
		So I don't want the Democrats to sit on the sideline and go, well, we'll just make it through the next two to three years.
		I really need to define who the leader will be and to hold Trump accountable and his team for the economy things that he's doing, some of the mistakes he's making over in foreign policy, as well as this immigration policy that is obviously not going the way he said it was going to go.
		So could you speak to some of that for listeners?
		Yeah, it's funny.
		I was asked on a panel shortly after the election who is the leader of the Democratic Party.
		And for the first time, probably in 30 years, I didn't have a good answer to that.
		The Democratic Party has had massive generational change with Nancy Pelosi kind of stepping down as Speaker of the House.
		The Clintons are kind of, you know, they're still there, but they don't have the force they once did.
		And the same to some degree is true with President Obama.
		So I don't know who the national leader of the Democratic Party is.
		I think you've hit the nail on the head on various people who are sort of auditioning for the role.
		Certainly Governor Newsom in California is making a pitch for that role.
		I think, you know, Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic minority leader, is stepping up his efforts to try to fill that void in the Democratic Party.
		And as we get closer to the 2028 elections, and I know it's crazy to start talking about them, but you are going to see Democratic candidates throwing their hats in the ring or at least trying to test the waters and see if they have the clout for a national role like that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's all the time that we have for this segment.
		Thank you so much to Sean Trendy, who is the senior elections analyst at Real Clear Politics.
		Really appreciate your time this morning, Sean.
unidentified		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And thanks to all of our callers.
		Later on our program, we're going to be joined by author Anna Merlin, who's a senior reporter for Mother Jones, and she'll join us to discuss conspiracy theories in U.S. politics.
		But up next, we'll be taking more of your calls and comments in open forum.
		Our line for Republicans is 202-748-8001.
		For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		And for Independents, 202-748-8002.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		Past president, why...
		Why are you doing this?
		This is outrageous.
		This is a tangoroo quarter.
		This fall, C-SPAN presents a rare moment of unity.
		Ceasefire, where the shouting stops and the conversation begins.
		Join political playbook chief correspondent and White House Bureau Chief Dasha Burns as host of Ceasefire, bringing two leaders from opposite sides of the aisle into a dialogue to find common ground.
		Peacefire, this fall, on the network that doesn't take sides, only on C-SPAN.
gen douglas macarthur ▲ ● ▼		Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.
unidentified		Saturday, American History TV marks the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II.
		And throughout the day, we'll highlight the final stages of the war in the Pacific Theater and Japan's surrender on September 2nd, 1945.
		Starting at 10 a.m. Eastern with live coverage from the National World War II Museum's End of War Symposium, then Michael Bell, Executive Director of the Institute for the Study of War and Democracy at the Museum, will take your calls live on the final engagements of World War II and Japan's surrender.
		Then, former U.S. Navy Gunnery Officer Stephen Ellis and former U.S. Army Air Force B-24 Navigator Rolf Slan talk about their wartime experiences in the Pacific.
		And historian Garrett Graf on his book, The Devil Reach Toward the Sky, on the development and use of the atomic bomb.
		Watch American History TV's special on the end of World War II 80th anniversary.
		Saturday, starting at 10 a.m. Eastern on American History TV on C-SPAN 2.
		On Monday, Republican Representative Mike Flood holds a town hall with constituents to answer questions and provide an update on the priorities he's been working on for Nebraska's 1st Congressional District.
		That's live from Lincoln, Nebraska at 6 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile app, or online at C-SPAN.org.
		Monday, diplomacy experts will discuss the United States' retreat from soft power in Africa.
		This comes after the Trump administration dismantled USAID, significantly cutting U.S. humanitarian aid to African countries.
		There are many ways to listen to C-SPAN radio anytime, anywhere.
		In the Washington, D.C. area, listen on 90.1 FM.
		Use our free C-SPAN Now app or go online to c-SPAN.org slash radio on SiriusXM radio on channel 455, the TuneIn app, and on your smart speaker by simply saying, play C-SPAN radio.
		Hear our live call-in program, Washington Journal, daily at 7 a.m. Eastern.
		Listen to House and Senate proceedings, committee hearings, news conferences, and other public affairs events live throughout the day.
		And for the best way to hear what's happening in Washington with fast-paced reports, live interviews, and analysis of the day.
		Catch Washington today, weekdays of 5 p.m. and 9 p.m. Eastern.
		Listen to C-SPAN programs on C-SPAN Radio, anytime, anywhere.
		C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		We're in open forum ready to talk to hear your thoughts and comments about public affairs news of the week.
		Another major story that was in the news all this past week was the ongoing humanitarian crisis and devastation in Gaza.
		The Washington Post has a big two-page spread in its A section today with rare aerial imagery showing the displacement and devastation in Gaza.
		Here's some of that imagery there showing some of the destruction in the enclave as a result of Israel's ongoing war there in response to Hamas's attack on Israel from October the 7th.
		Much of the enclave has been damaged or destroyed in this conflict that's been going on now for more than a year.
		And also this weekend, Donald Trump's envoy to the region, Steve Witkoff, visited what is reported in The Guardian as a death trap.
		Witkoff says he's helping craft a plan to deliver aid as UN reports that Israeli forces have killed 1,353 Palestinians who were waiting for food.
		Going on to say that Donald Trump's envoy Steve Witkoff has visited Gaza and been shown one of the controversial food distribution sites around which hundreds of Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces.
		Witkoff, the U.S. President's special envoy for the Middle East, had earlier met with the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu amid mounting international horror over the conditions of starvation in Gaza occurring after months of Israeli-imposed aid restrictions.
		Witkoff, a former real estate lawyer with no background in foreign policy or humanitarian aid, wrote on X that he had spent more than five hours inside Gaza in order to gain a quote clear understanding of the humanitarian situation and help craft a plan to deliver food and medical aid to the people of Gaza.
		That is one of several stories that were in the news this week, but we want to hear what captured your attention in Open Forum.
		We'll start with Andrea in Charlotte, North Carolina on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Andrea.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		Thanks so much for taking my call.
		I would like to let you know that I really appreciate what guys are doing, especially you as an anchor.
		We do have a president nowadays that love a conspiracy and people have to fact-check this guy all the time.
		And he's been actually involved in multiple lawsuits and go after different news outlets.
		I'm very concerned about what's going on with NPR, by the way.
		And when you have this kind of opportunity to talk to people, and this is a wonderful TV show, I really like you guys.
		You guys have to keep fact-tracking people.
		And you do this very well.
		I appreciate you.
		Yesterday, I was watching this TV show.
		I almost had a heart attack.
		The lady, I'm so sorry, she's not even there, but she was not doing that.
		So I do appreciate everything that you guys are doing.
		So actually, I've just called to say how much I appreciate you guys.
		Thank you so much.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for watching.
		Shaz is in Nevada on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Shaz.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I wanted to clear up a point.
		A woman called and said that illegal immigrants are getting social services and all kinds of welfare benefits.
		Well, that's not true.
		I want everybody to look up the Enumeration Beyond Entry program that Donald Trump signed into law back in 2017, which facilitated immigrants to receive social security numbers so that they could pay into the social security system.
		But they were not allowed to take any money out.
		Which leads me to my next point.
		When you have that many people working and putting money into revenue into our coffers, and now you're removing millions of people with disposable income from the economy, you break the economy.
		That's why unemployment has gone up.
		And in fact, the unemployment for black people has shot up to 7.2.
		It was at 5% under Joe Biden, but now it's at 7.2 under Trump.
		The economy is in trouble.
		And if you look at how the numbers have been revised in the past few months, you'll see that there is definitely a major decline in employment.
		And so by October, it's really going to be bad once you then count in what happens to the federal workers who are unemployed.
		So you've got a bunch of disposable income being removed from the economy.
		This is also going to weaken the Social Security system, but then you've got unemployment going up.
		It's so bad in Las Vegas that we have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation right now.
		So yeah, we're in trouble.
		So one of the smartest things that Donald Trump did was the EBE program in 2017.
		But one of the dumbest things he's doing right now is removing all of these undocumented workers from the economy because it is killing us.
		And it's really hurting us out here in Nevada, too.
		Thank you for your time.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Lewis is in Highland Park, Illinois on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Lewis.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm quite pessimistic about the economy.
		We're removing people from the country that just want to work.
		Who does your lawn?
		Who does your roof?
		Who fixes the roads?
		These are immigrants.
		All they want to do is work and make money.
		And I'm very concerned about the Bill of Rights being just destroyed.
		People being arrested without warrants.
		Due process is gone.
		Speedy trials is gone.
		All of these things in the Bill of Rights are just being destroyed.
		And the country better wake up.
		And thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Our last two callers have referenced the current immigration policies.
		There's been some recent polling on that from CBS and YouGov from the middle of July on the support for Trump's immigration policies.
		44% of those polled approve of Trump's handling of immigration, down 10% from March.
		49% approve of the deportations, which is a drop of 10% from February.
		42% approve of President Trump's use of detention facilities.
		58% oppose.
		Max is in Valdosta, Georgia on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Max.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		I just want to say happy morning to everybody out there.
		As we go through this time here, it's important to not only follow God's word in the Bible, but also follow the Constitution.
		And my message for politicians is don't do what may be polling, what may be popular now, right now.
		Follow the Constitution.
		What's the Constitution say?
		What limits do government have?
		What powers does the states, essentially states have versus the federal government?
		And just follow the Constitution.
		It's not that hard a deal if you're in Congress or a senator when you're voting on a policy.
		Well, is this policy constitutional?
		Should the federal government be actually doing this?
		And we have many programs that are not constitutional because they were never given to the federal government.
		States should be taking over more of these things, and local governments can be taking over more of these things instead of just the federal government getting involved in everything.
		So that's my message: follow God's word in the Bible and just follow the Constitution.
		And I think that our country will be okay.
		As far as the economics, I'm very positive about the economy right now.
		Gas prices are down in my area, and unemployment has been going down.
		So I know that you just flew out for gas yesterday, and the gas prices are lower than they were in the past couple years.
		So I'm very optimistic about the economy.
		So thank you very much for taking my call, and you have a great day.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Gregory is in Seattle, Washington on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Gregory.
unidentified		Hello, yes.
		I want to take that.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		I want to take my last comment: the gas is a pound in your territory over Libya.
		Really, the problem is that in Washington State, gas prices are above $4 a gallon.
		Now, if you don't realize that, I'm sorry.
		But we don't pay $2 in taxes for gas.
		And I don't know why everybody's gas so low in the Midwest, but they're very high in Washington State.
		You know what I'm saying?
		I'm very concerned about the fraud on the Internet.
		I'm disabled.
		I use the Internet very heavily.
		And I have to spend at least 50% of my time dealing with fraud that people want to take my money.
		I'm tired of this business that we're ignoring the internet.
		It is the future that we use it.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		The line is a little bit difficult to understand.
		I'm wondering if you're not.
		Yes, that would be better.
		Is that better?
		That is better.
		Thank you.
unidentified		All right.
		What I'm concerned about is that, number one, gas prices in Washington State are $5, almost $5 a gallon.
		And also, fraud from the Internet is outrageous.
		I'm handicapped.
		And I have to use the Internet, very much so, to purchase things and things of that nature.
		And when it comes down to fraud, they want my money.
		And I tell you, I'm pinning out fraud all the time on the Internet.
		It's half the time I'm on the Internet defending myself from fraud, asking whether this is a good site to be at or not yet, all this.
		And if that's the way of the future, we're in for a very, very big calling.
		We have to deal with fraud.
		And if the government doesn't want to deal with the fraud of the internet, we're never going to be able to vote on the internet.
		That's all there is to it.
		We need to vote where the handicapped can vote to, where they can't make it to the ballot, where they can't mail in a ballot, and all these things.
		And they have the right to vote too.
		When it comes down to the internet, it's so fraud, they're not going to be able to vote that way.
		That's for sure.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Masood is in Portland, Oregon, on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Masoud.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		You're an open forum.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Hi.
		Nomin Masood Afghani.
		Awesome.
		My name is Masoud.
		I am Afghan Afghan person.
		I am Vietnamese.
		I am Vietnamese.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I think we're losing that line.
		Let's hear from John in Syracuse, New York on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Yes, I watch Washington Journal every chance I get.
		And I would say that over the last year or so, the main topic that I hear people calling up with is illegal immigration.
		I'm a Democrat.
		I favor abortion rights, gun control, things like that.
		I voted for Trump because Joe Biden did the stupidest thing in political history.
		I don't know who advised Biden to do away with the Remain in Mexico policy that Trump had.
		Once he did away with that, we all saw that they had caravans after caravans of these people coming to the border and getting in.
		That's political suicide.
		The Democrats, how stupid could they have been to do away with the Remain in Mexico policy?
		Whatever advisor advised Biden to do away with that policy cost the Democrats the election.
		That was the main thing.
		Immigrants getting free this, free that.
		You all heard it.
		And you're still calling it today because they're correct.
		You don't have open borders.
		No country has open borders.
		It was the stupidest thing that the Democrats ever did, and we're still paying the price for it today.
		And they better get on board and realize nobody supports illegal immigration.
		Do it legally, and that's it.
		If you're not legal, get out of the country.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Al is in Silver Spring, Maryland, on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Al.
unidentified		Hi.
		I wanted to speak about Gaza.
		And I want people to look at a website for American Friends Service Committee, which is a Quaker committee.
		And, you know, they actually have two people who are in Gaza.
		And I wish that, you know, C-SPAN would interview them because they report that there is a genocide going on.
		And they also report that the aid is really not going at all.
		People are starving really, really badly.
		And I think that people like that would be ideal for C-SPAN to include.
		The other thing I also want C-SPAN to consider is that what is going on in Gaza is essentially the playbook is what the American government did to the American Indians.
		Native American Indians were essentially moved out of their land.
		Their buffalo was killed to starve them.
		This is the same playbook that Israel is using.
		So I think that in order to fight this playbook or to play against this playbook, we need to have a mass movement to alert the public that this is being history not repeated, but rhyming with what went on in the past.
		Okay, so we need to really look at this from what Americans did to the Native Americans.
		And whenever AIPAC comes with a funding package, we should have at least 30% also go to the American Indians because that problem is still not solved.
		That's what I suggest.
		People should become aware of this.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There is additional news coming out of that region from the U.S. Special Envoy's trip there.
		This is a story in the Washington Post that the U.S. envoy tells Israeli families of a plan to bring all the hostages home.
		Special Envoy Steve Witkoff says the U.S. has a plan to bring home all the remaining hostages held by Hamas and that an end to the war is near.
		Steve Witkoff, President Donald Trump's special envoy, told Israeli hostage families on Saturday that the United States has a plan to bring home all the remaining captives held by Hamas in a sweeping deal and that an end to the war was near.
		According to a recording of the meeting published by Israeli Channel 12 television, Witkoff met the families in Tel Aviv after attending an impromptu protest that was held in the city after Hamas released a video late Friday of a gaunt 24-year-old hostage, Evatiar David, describing a lack of food while in captivity in Gaza and urging Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanat Yahoo to end the war.
		Hamas and its militant affiliates have often released similar videos during critical junctures in negotiation with Israel to stir public sentiment and apply pressure on the government.
		This is all occurring, obviously, in the midst of the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
		Now, while en route to the White House last week, President Donald Trump spoke to reporters aboard Air Force One addressing Gaza and plans to send food and monetary aid.
		Let's listen.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We're going to get a lot of money to the area so they can get some food.
		He's going to also.
		I think the European Union is going to put up money too for food.
		And hopefully it's going to be properly distributed.
		And it will be.
		I think it will be.
		We have some pretty good response on people for the distribution of the food.
		We want to take it one thing at a time.
		They need food and they need people to be able to get them the food.
unidentified		But to put a local nine, I mean, is there any use at all in pressuring Israel now to come to some sort of longer-term solution?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Well, you could make the case that you're rewarding people, that, you know, you're rewarding Hamas if you do that.
		And I don't think they should be rewarded.
		So I'm not in that camp, to be honest.
unidentified		We'll let you know where we are, but I am not in that campaign.
unidentified		Because if you do that, you really are rewarding Hamas.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		And I'm not about to do that.
unidentified		Mr. President, you mentioned setting up food centers.
unidentified		When can we expect to see food centers?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		So we sent $60 million.
donald j trump [ai] ▲ ● ▼		It's a lot of money for food, a lot of money that can take care of people for a long time.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		And we want to make sure it's going to be, it's being spent properly.
		And part of the spending is the distribution.
		You know, if you know, a lot of money has been sent by other countries, but nothing compared to us.
		But a lot of things have been stolen.
unidentified		They send money, they send food, and Hamas steals it.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		So it's a tricky little game.
		But we're going to make sure we have some very good people.
		They're going to be watching us.
unidentified		Who is going to be running those food centers for you?
unidentified		And what kind of oversight is it?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're going to be dealing with Israel and we think they can do a good job of it.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		And they want to do it.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Back to your calls and open forum.
		We're going to Adam in Hermosa Beast Beach, California, on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Adam.
unidentified		Hello, good morning.
		Hope you're having a good day.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		Thank you for C-SPAN.
		I would like to perhaps give a rhetorical question on your report on Gaza.
		I question why hasn't the Israeli government implemented this strategy where perhaps women and children in Gaza have the opportunity to be, I guess, maybe moved to outside of Gaza, anywhere else in the world.
		And anyone who wishes not to fight, that way, their fight will be against anyone who wishes to stay.
		You know, and that might address the humanitarian crisis as it seems to be as it's reported on the news.
		So, I just that's my question.
		I hope you guys have a good day, and God bless.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Craig is in Waterville, Ohio, on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Craig.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I was just letting you know that Kamala Harris said that you know she didn't want to comment on the leader of the Democratic Party, but there's hundreds of them.
		She doesn't want to leave out a name.
		And then Hamas is stealing food.
		So I don't understand why people are like, oh, they're not getting food, but yeah, Hamas is stealing the food.
		And the illegal aliens that are here, look at the one who was a cop that got deported.
		I mean, how'd he become a police officer?
		I think it was in Maine.
		Yeah, it was in Maine.
		But I'm just wondering how all these illegal aliens are getting jobs without social security numbers.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		John is in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin on our line for independence.
		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Thanks for taking my call.
		Could you do me a favor, possibly, Kimberly, if you have time, and bring up Illinois Congressional District 9 and Wisconsin District 1 for congressional people?
		You were talking about gerrymandering.
		The one that I'm in in Wisconsin, the first district where Brian Style just got hammered at a town hall recently by a bunch of protesters, I think is what you'd call them.
		But like I said, you brought up Texas is redistricting before, and I think that all these congressional districts should look somewhat like some type of geometrical shape.
		The one I'm in is almost a rectangle with a couple of little spots here and there, but the 9th District in Illinois is ridiculous.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So I did just pull up a map of that congressional district.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		It's near Chicago and is quite stretched out.
unidentified		And it's been Democrat since 1949.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, that's all the time that we have for open forum.
		Coming up next, we'll have author Anna Merlin, who is a senior reporter from Mother Jones, who is going to join us to discuss conspiracy theories in U.S. politics.
		We'll be right back.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		The patriarch C.F. Seabrook was hailed as the Henry Ford of agriculture.
		His son, Jack, a keen businessman, was poised to take over what Life magazine called the biggest vegetable factory on earth.
		His son, John Seabrook, has written about his grandfather and father in his book called The Spinach King.
		It's subtitled The Rise and Fall of an American Dynasty.
		Work on the spinach king started in the early 1980s when John Seabrook was with the New Yorker magazine.
		John Seabrook says, I had a grandfather who was a champion of white supremacy, a true believer in the superiority of the Nordic Christian male.
unidentified		Author John Seabrook with his book, The Spinach King: The Rise and Fall of an American Dynasty.
		On this episode of Book Notes Plus with our host, Brian Lamb.
		BookNotes Plus is available wherever you get your podcasts and on the C-SPAN Now app.
		Tonight on C-SPAN's Q&A.
		Technology reporter Nicole Kobe, author of The Long History of the Future, talks about how technology evolves and discusses why many predicted technologies, including driverless and flying cars, smart cities, Hyperloops, and autonomous robots, haven't become a reality.
nicole kobie ▲ ● ▼		If you've ever tried to build anything, you know, whether it's like an IKEA cabinet or, you know, something a little bit more complicated than that that doesn't come with instructions, it's very difficult to build something.
		So engineers who are working on these kinds of problems, you know, whether it's driverless cars or flying cars or, I don't know, even sillier ideas like Hyperloop, they're taking science that we know works and they're applying it to the real world, to a physical object.
		And then they're trying to build that.
		And it's kind of in the details where things start to fall down a bit.
		It's kind of in, you know, how you actually make it happen, the materials you choose, the business model, all of that can just kind of take something that sort of works in the lab or works in an academic paper and just make it completely fall apart, even though people have spent maybe 80 years on an idea.
unidentified		Technology reporter Nicole Kobe tonight at 8 Eastern on C-SPAN's Q ⁇ A. You can listen to QA in all of our podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts or on our free C-SPAN Now app.
		Wednesday, Republican Representative Nancy Mace holds a town hall to answer citizen questions and discuss her priorities for South Carolina.
		From Myrtle Beach, watch live at 6 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile app, or online at c-span.org.
		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		We're joined now by Anna Merlin, who is a senior reporter at Mother Jones and also the author of the book Republic of Lies, American Conspiracy Theorists and Their Surprising Rise to Power.
		Thanks so much for joining us on Washington Journal, Anna.
unidentified		Thank you for having me.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell us a little bit about your background and experience covering conspiracy theories and the people who believe in them?
unidentified		Yeah, I'm a journalist and I've been covering conspiracy theories, conspiratorial communities, conspiratorial beliefs in American life pretty intensively for about the last 10 years and a little bit before that.
anna merlan ▲ ● ▼		And really looking at the ways in which people choose what to believe, how to make decisions, and how to evaluate information and how all those things impact their lives.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And then your book, The Republic of Lies, American Conspiracy Theorists and Their Rise to Power, why do you say there's in particular their surprising rise to power?
unidentified		Well, one of the things that the book talks about a lot is that conspiracy theories are really common on kind of all sides of the aisle in American life, right?
anna merlan ▲ ● ▼		One thing that we have seen, though, in the last 10 years is that people in positions of power in American life are promoting conspiracy theories in a way that is somewhat unusual.
unidentified		Previously, it was very common for people who are not in power in American society, whose political party was not represented in the presidency, for instance, people who are disenfranchised, to engage in conspiratorial thinking, to figure out who to blame for kind of the forces that have governed their lives and that feel inequitable, for instance.
unidentified		And so a kind of striking difference here is when people in positions of power, you know, ultimate power, the presidency of the White House, also engage in conspiratorial thinking and allege, you know, plots or campaigns against them.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you give a couple of examples of how people who actually believe in conspiracy theories have made it into power and what impact that's had?
unidentified		Well, of course, you know, Donald Trump has pretty persistently claimed that there is a deep state working against him within government, and that has now been a pretty significant issue in this Trump administration is a claim that not just from him, but from other senior officials in his administration, like Robert F. Kennedy Jr., that they have sort of an entrenched deep state working against them and trying to subvert their goals and their aims.
anna merlan ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, viewers will also remember that this was a pretty big issue in the last Trump presidency, too.
unidentified		And it's something that has dominated political discourse and is, you know, now doing so again.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you talk a bit about the role of algorithms and bots and in particular in the modern setting, artificial intelligence in the role that conspiracy theories, I guess in promoting conspiracy theories?
unidentified		Right.
		So there's always been, there's an increasing sort of concern in public life about the role that things like bots, trolls, and manipulated online accounts play in sort of determining what people think.
		And the jury is still very much out on how much that kind of mis and disinformation impacts people.
anna merlan ▲ ● ▼		But what we do know is that it can make the information environment more chaotic and it can make it harder for people to know who or what to trust, right?
		And that ultimately is the concern for a lot of people who study disinformation.
		Not necessarily that bots, trolls, algorithms, you know, faked AI videos, deep fakes are necessarily going to change people's views overnight, but it is going to make it harder for people to know that what they're looking at is accurate, is real.
unidentified		And that can be a bigger concern, especially now that AI specifically is getting incredibly sophisticated.
unidentified		You know, the AI technology, especially where videos are concerned, is accelerating at kind of a furious rate, and it's hard to know if our kind of education about how those things work is keeping pace.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There's an interesting quote from UC Berkeley professor Timothy Tangerlini who says, stories are very powerful.
		We're much more comfortable with hearing stories that conform to our beliefs than ones that challenge them.
		On social media, your idea that the people you're interacting with share your beliefs, values, and norms may not apply because many of them, in part because many of them may actually be robots.
		How does this sense of how we interact with people or I guess bots online shape the way that some of these ideas form and spread?
unidentified		Right.
		So it is absolutely true that we are more comfortable with ideas that kind of confirm our pre-existing beliefs.
		If you're interested in, or if your viewers are interested in that, there's a really great book by a social scientist named Rob Brotherton called Suspicious Minds about literally the way our brains are kind of hardwired for conspiracy thinking.
		It can also, I have certainly seen, the case that people will believe when they're engaging in discourse with others, if somebody disagrees with them, if somebody is presenting an alternate view, they're often accused of being a bot or a troll, right?
		That's one aspect of discourse.
		But the other aspect is that there is a great deal of ongoing attempted platform manipulation in the places where we have conversations.
		You know, that has occurred around our elections, that has occurred in so many other kinds of areas of American life, is that we really do have attempts at platform manipulation, bots, trolls, other kinds of mis and disinformation being kind of used to muddy the conversation.
		But again, it's really unclear how much of that impacts what people think, how they vote.
		This is going to be an ongoing subject of study for years, decades.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		How do you differentiate what is a conspiracy theory versus what is just someone's different interpretation of the news or what they choose to trust?
unidentified		Right, yeah, it's really important not to use the term conspiracy theory carelessly.
		So, a conspiracy theory, right, the classic definition is the belief that a powerful group of people are working in secret against the common good to effect a negative change in society or to hide a consequential secret.
		A conspiracy, of course, is when a powerful group of people are in fact doing that.
		And it can be very hard at first glance to tell sometimes in the first writing of history what is a conspiracy theory and what is an actual conspiracy that has yet to come to light.
		So, in these conversations, in these increasingly heated discourses we're having, it's very common to accuse your opponents of being conspiracy theorists of believing false ideas.
		And it is, yeah, it is important to be discerning in how we use those terms and try not to dismiss new ideas outright by using that term to sort of terminate the discussion.
		At the same time, it is absolutely true that conspiracy theories do play a pretty major role in our political discourse and recur pretty frequently at this point.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Are conspiracy theories more prevalent on the right or left?
unidentified		No.
		All the science and studies we have is that conspiracy theories are for everyone.
		They recur pretty commonly in American life.
		There's different kinds of data on this, but generally we believe that about one in two or one in three people believe in at least one conspiracy theory.
		It's just incredibly common here in some other countries as well, but we are just very prone to some types of conspiratorial thinking.
		So no, it is not a political issue.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there's a mention in some of your writing of blue anon.
unidentified		What is that?
		Yeah, so that is a term, a somewhat polarizing term for people who, for instance, believe that Donald Trump is not just supported by the Russian government sort of ideologically, but that he is like a literal Manchurian candidate who is put in place to subvert American democracy.
		You know, ideas like that that are unproven, that are just, as far as we can tell, not true, could be one example of conspiratorial thinking on the left or in sort of like progressive circles.
		And again, that term is often also used sort of derisively by people like Marjorie Taylor Green, who's used it a lot, to refer to true but unflattering ideas about, for instance, the Trump administration.
		So it's a term that's been used and misused in all kinds of ways.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There are a few, there are quite a few conspiracy theories floating around on the right or left at any given point in time.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What are some of the key conspiracy theories that you're tracking right now in your reporting?
unidentified		Well, so obviously the big discourse in American life right now is around Jeffrey Epstein, who is a disgraced financier pedophile who died in jail.
		And, you know, one of the biggest debates in American life right now is what people knew about his crimes and when they knew them, right?
		And of course, there are ideas, conjectures, actual conspiracy theories, for instance, alleging that he was a Mossad agent or had ties to some other foreign government.
		That is the big one I'm tracking right now.
		There's also pretty big resurgence, let's say, in debates about whether the Russian government's support for Donald Trump was in some ways manufactured by Hillary Clinton or President Obama, which President Trump has recently been claiming.
		So this is another example of a public official engaging in what many people might see as conspiratorial thinking.
		So I'm really tracking those things closely.
		Also, one constant thing that recurs in American life are conspiratorial or unproven ideas around health.
		And we're seeing that again with a renewed conversation, making the false claim that vaccines cause autism and that that connection is being covered up.
		Vaccines do not cause autism.
		That's been extensively proven and reproven over and over again.
		So there's a lot going on right now.
		There's a lot to track.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We'll be taking your calls with questions for Anna Merlin of Mother Jones.
		Republicans can call in at 202-748-8001.
		Democrats at 202-748-8000.
		And Independents at 202-748-8002.
		Before we get to calls, Anna, how should the media as well as Americans overall seek to verify or dispel conspiracy theories?
		Or what should someone say to somebody they care about if they think that they might have gone down that path?
unidentified		Yeah, as you might imagine, this is the most common question that I get, especially from people who are really wondering, who really believe that their loved ones have embarked on a path that they find worrisome or are engaged in a fact-seeking pattern that they don't think is serving them.
		So the first thing I always say when people come to me with this kind of question is, what is the conspiratorial belief doing for your loved one?
		One of the big focuses of my book and my work generally is the ways that so-called conspiratorial communities can help people create meaning, purpose, connection, stories about their lives that help make more sense of the sort of forces that surround them, the people or institutions that they might see as being sort of to blame for bad things that have happened in their lives.
		So the question first is always, what is the conspiratorial belief doing?
		Is it providing an explanation that maybe makes more sense, that is a little bit, if not necessarily tidier, then more emotionally compelling?
		And also the second thing is like, what are those beliefs doing in terms of how people make decisions about their own lives?
		Are they impacting the choices you make about your health?
		Are they impacting, you know, your belief engaging, for instance, in democratic systems?
		Like, some of the studies that we've seen show that when people are exposed to conspiracy theories, for instance, about rigged voting, they're less likely to vote.
		They're less likely to engage in the democratic process.
		So the question first is always, what is the belief doing?
		And secondly, how is it impacting their lives?
		And from there, you can kind of proceed with, you know, what you can say to that person.
		And like, this is a little far afield, but it also depends on your relationship with that person.
		Is this somebody that you're emotionally close to?
		Is this someone for whom you have some kind of sway or influence over how they might think?
		Do they respect you?
		Do they want to talk to you about their beliefs?
		Or are they, for instance, a stranger on the internet who you should probably not waste your time trying to sway their beliefs because you don't have any particular influence on their thinking?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you talk about the concept of pre-bunking?
unidentified		Right.
		So the idea of pre-bunking, basically, there have been a number of social scientific studies that show that when people are exposed to how false ideas can be spread, the tactics used by purveyors of mis and disinformation, when they are, for instance, shown false headlines, they then get better at evaluating and identifying false information when they see it out in the wild in real life.
		So there's a really great game that I always encourage people to play that was created by two social scientists at Oxford called Bad News.
		And in this game, you pose as a fake news peddler and you use these kind of seven tools that fake news peddlers use to spread bad information.
		And it has been shown that games like these actually work really well to show people how these tools are used and to make people better at spotting this information when it comes up.
		It is, of course, often quite hard for people to do that, but we have a lot of evidence that better media literacy tools are one of the things that we can use to fight this increasingly chaotic information environment that we have.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And I believe I've found that website, which is getbadnews.com, to play that game online.
		All right.
		Well, let us get to some callers who have questions for Anna Merlin from Mother Jones.
		Let's start with Dave in Long Island, New York, on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Dave.
unidentified		Hey, how are you?
		Good morning.
		Great topic, great subject.
		I love conspiracy theories.
		I read a lot of them.
		And somebody, you know, like the Gulf of Tonkin.
		Hello?
		And so like the Gulf of Tonkin was pushing us more into Vietnam.
		And then you had the Iraq war where if we remember when it first started, everyone said no one questioned it.
		Everybody went.
		But now we learn later on that how much were lies that lied us into that conflict.
		But really, when you talk about, you say you're from Mother Jones, left-wing institution, but I remember on the left, it used to be, take, for instance, Oliver Stone, hard left, very involved in the conspiracy theories.
		You have National Endowment for Democracy, USAID, when you talk about the deep state, and then who's talked about that a lot?
		Noam Chomsky, very hard left.
		And he had fake news, which Noam Chomsky's thing.
		He wrote manufacturing consent, necessary illusions.
		That was a hard left concept.
		So now, my quick point, John, it's going to go fast now, is I like one of my favorites was World War II, the Pearl Harbor.
		Japan came, you know, there was, you know, we put embargo, Japan came, they attacked Pearl Harbor, and what was sunk was all the battleships, right?
		Which was pretty, at that point, they were pretty like old technology.
		The new technology was the aircraft carriers, which all happened to be out.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, Dave, I understand that you follow a lot of these conspiracy theories.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What was your specific question for Anna?
unidentified		All right.
		Well, my question is now, so how we had the Neutrality Acts 1, 2, 3, Edward Gakabash, Pearl Harbor, but now we're looking at we have another war starting in Europe, and with Ukraine and Russia's not stopping, Russia's the only thing that's going to stop Russia would be the United States military.
		And I'm just, you know, I'm just curious to what you think, what's going to be the next lie to lie us into a war in Europe.
		Again, thank you.
		Sure.
		Great question.
		I can tell you're really engaged in these issues.
		I actually have two book recommendations for you that I think you would really enjoy.
		The first is a book called Real Enemies by a professor named Kathy Olmsted, and it's basically about conspiracy theories between World War I and 9-11.
		And one of the things that you're pointing to is a really persistent anxiety in American life, this fear and suspicion that U.S. officials are using false claims to lull the populace into believing in a justification for war.
		And there was a lot of anxiety, as you point out, about our entry into World War II following Pearl Harbor.
		This recurs kind of over and over again, which I think can be really helpful in understanding why these ideas come up so much.
		So many conspiracy theories, as you're kind of pointing to, are the same basic elements that are grafted onto new ideas, new concerns.
		The other book that I would really recommend is called Doppelganger.
		It's by a woman named Naomi Klein, and it's essentially about the ways that some of these debates kind of mirror each other on the right and left and the different ways that those ideas are expressed in those spaces.
		So I don't know.
		I don't know what the next war, obviously, is going to be, but I can tell you that the concerns you're expressing are old.
		In some cases, they're well-founded.
		And I think often our best guide and our best teacher when it comes to these things is history, is looking at how these issues have been discussed in the past.
		It can also just be really revealing to realize how many conversations we've been having essentially in the same way in this country for the last, you know, hundred years.
		So yeah, thank you for that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And Dave also mentioned this idea that sometimes things that are called conspiracy theories are later found out to be well-founded or true.
unidentified		Right.
		Yes, yeah.
		And that's absolutely a, that should be a central concern for journalists, especially academics, people engaged in sort of writing what we would call the first draft of history, is not dismissing ideas as conspiracy theories too soon.
		And it's something that we all have to be really careful about, especially because everyone has their own kind of innate biases about what information or sources of information they consider to be reliable, credible, so-called neutral.
		And so, yeah, I think that this is a really important point.
		I suspect that somebody will call in to make a claim which is not true, which is the idea that the term conspiracy theory was created by the CIA.
		That is not the case.
		There are many recurrences of the term conspiracy theory from before the CIA was created.
		But a lot of times people who believe in, let's say, contested or alternative ideas will object to the term conspiracy theory being applied to those ideas kind of without due process.
		And that is a fair concern.
		And it is important not to use language that sort of dismisses these ideas out of hand without engaging with them in a fair way.
		So that's absolutely true.
		And it's something for people like me to think about in how we write about these issues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		John is in Florence, Massachusetts, on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Hello, yes.
		Mother Jones is a left-wing newspaper, and I haven't ever seen them write anything good about any Republican ever or President Trump.
		They just push one side of a story.
		I'm just curious, you know, you guys said that the lab theory was a conspiracy theory proven true.
		You said that Trump being with the Russians was a conspiracy theory that you guys pushed that's been proven untrue.
		And you made it sound like all the information that's just been released about Obama and Hillary Clinton and Bremer and the CIA head and the FBI, Comey, all those guys.
		They conspired.
		I mean, it's released.
		We have the information, and you're still trying to say it's a conspiracy theory.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		John?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Oh, looks like we've lost him, but if you want to respond to some of those points that John raised.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, I think that these are really important points.
		So, first of all, the lab leak theory is not conclusively proven true.
		That is still very much contested information, but he's absolutely correct that many people in positions of power are claiming that COVID was created in a lab.
		That is an ongoing debate.
		You can really read some really great stuff about that debate in less partisan sources, for instance, the journal Nature.
		I would recommend that.
		And then the second thing, I think, second, that he was pointing to is this claim that has emerged from the Trump administration in Republican circles claiming that Donald Trump's supposed support from the Russian government was a hoax created by Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
		This is a claim that the Trump administration has started making in the last couple of weeks.
		They have threatened to refer people like Hillary Clinton and President Obama and other former Biden and Obama officials for prosecution.
		And that is very much an ongoing thing right now.
		One thing I think might be helpful here is to read the actual reports that they are sort of basing this claim on and to realize that in many cases, these reports say the exact opposite sometimes of what President Trump is claiming.
		So what we do know, for instance, about Russian interference in the 2016 election, for instance, is that the Russian government, for reasons of their own making, favored Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton in that election.
		Did they impact voting?
		We don't know.
		Did they tamper with voting?
		No.
		There's no evidence that they did that.
		At the same time, this claim that the entire story was cooked up by Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, the deep state, those claims have not been proven true.
		And in fact, a lot of the intelligence reports that are being referred to now in this current discussion say the exact opposite.
		Our intelligence community determined long ago that there was reason to believe that the Russian government was interested in Donald Trump being elected, not because he's a Manchurian candidate or a Russian puppet or any of these more out there claims being made, but just because they decided it would benefit them politically.
		And there's really interesting studies to be made specifically about the Russian state disinformation apparatus because it's pretty sophisticated, but it's not the only one.
		It tends to get a lot of attention.
		There is, for instance, really interesting studies of state disinformation apparatuses under former Filipino leader Rodrigo Duterte, under, for instance, like the Orban government.
		There's all kinds of other ways that we can talk about state-backed disinformation that don't have anything to do with the United States and might be interesting for your caller to look at to sort of think more broadly about how these ideas play out.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Brenda's in Michigan on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Brenda.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		You're doing a great job.
		There's a lot of distraction going on, but the have and the have-nots.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Make sure you've turned down the volume on your TV and then you can go ahead with your question for Anna Merlin of Mother Jones.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Brenda.
unidentified		The have and the have-not.
		And we're being destroyed from the White House on down.
		And people have voted.
		It was more than just the price of food.
		They voted for Trump.
		He's destroying our democracy.
		He's doing what he wants.
		I don't know why somebody doesn't stop him.
		It's a war against the have and the have-nots here in the United States.
		And what's going on starving those people in Israel and Gaza is just mind-boggling.
		That leader should be put under the jail.
		I just don't know.
		It's so sad what's going on.
		We're just being destroyed.
		And who's going to pay for this ballroom?
		The taxpayers.
		We don't need a ballroom.
		We don't need to have a ballroom in the White House.
		That's places for business, not a ballroom.
		Pleasure.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if you wanted to respond to any of those points, Anna.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, no, I'm thinking a lot about that.
		I mean, one of the sort of most primary concerns in American life is about this issue that the caller was talking about, the haves versus the have-nots.
		And a lot of times in American history, as I said, the people who engage in conspiratorial thinking are the have-nots or people who are disadvantaged by our society.
		At the same time, a lot of what the caller was pointing to is genuine and real distress over what we're seeing right now with the dismantling of large parts of the American government in the federal system.
		I wrote a piece a few months ago about knowledge loss in the federal government, about all the things that we used to study and track and research and fund, you know, scientifically that we no longer do, all the ways in which we are less informed about the world around us because of these sort of devastating budget cuts to the federal government.
		So, you know, some of these concerns are very real and are things that are going to impact us and our system and in some cases our health and safety for a really long time.
		So yeah, I understand why the caller feels so frustrated.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Karen is in Alabaster, Alabama on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Karen.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		Yeah, so I actually was going to bring up the Trump is a Russian asset and who started all that.
		And it was Hillary Clinton.
		And you keep talking about how Trump is posting all these things.
		It's not President Trump.
		I mean, he's saying it, but Tulsi Gabbert, director of national intelligence, just released a bunch of documentation.
		Not everything.
		A lot of it's redacted.
		Saying that's exactly what they did.
		Exactly what they did.
		So it's not conspiracy.
		It's a fact.
		Right.
		So one thing I would definitely urge you to do is to read some independent analyses of what the Trump administration is saying about the material that they are releasing.
		In a lot of cases, earlier intelligence reports about these same documents directly disagree with the Trump administration's current claims that these documents prove that President Obama or Hillary Clinton decided to cook up this so-called Russia Gate scandal to doom Donald Trump's presidency.
		The other thing that I think might be worth looking at is why specifically the Trump administration has chosen sort of right now to engage in this debate over the 2016 elections.
		There are many people, including people on the right, as you might be aware, who feel like this is meant to be a distraction from the ongoing controversy over the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.
		So I don't dispute your outrage over what you see as the sort of manufacturing of a controversy.
		And I would never tell you not to be upset about that, but I would definitely encourage you to read as much as you can about what sort of independent experts and even former members of the intelligence community are saying about these specific documents that are currently being released and touted by the Trump administration as being very damning.
		And I guess I would also watch to see what happens with these supposed investigations and criminal prosecutions.
		As you probably have noticed, as a lot of folks on the MAGA side have been talking about recently, the Trump administration sometimes makes promises of disclosure, of criminal prosecution, of some other kind of explosive action that then does not happen.
		So I would say that if you are angry about this issue, if you're animated by this issue, like please keep paying attention to it.
		See what happens.
		See where this goes.
		I think that's a great practice for all of us.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		William is in Mabelton, Georgia on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, William.
unidentified		Yes.
		Good morning.
		I'm a little perplexed as to how you think both political parties subscribe to conspiracy theories equally.
		Pretty much everything that comes from the right is a conspiracy theory.
		From Obama being a Muslim, not being born in America.
		When we were still at war in Afghanistan and Iraq, we had troops that went to Texas to do training.
		The governor of Texas wanted Reed to be reassured that they weren't going to be invaded by the troops.
		That came from the governor of Texas.
		During the, I guess, Trump first term, they had coined a term, alternative facts.
		And most Republicans only watch one or two networks because they hear what they want to hear.
		I can't think of anything that a Democrat or any group that I've ever heard on the left-leaning side, no conspiracy theories.
		Everything about Trump is true.
		From defrauding people, from business to the university, to stealing from the vets, to grabbing women and he found guilty of sexual assault, tried to overthrow an election.
		There is no room for conspiracy theories from the left because everything about the Republicans is too much real life to have to make things up.
		Yeah, that caller makes a number of really, really good points.
		And I think what you're seeing is that conspiracy theories on the right, because the right has been in power for, you know, so long in various forms, tend to be more public and more disruptive.
		And as the caller correctly pointed out, Donald Trump's first entry into the American political debate was over this false and frankly racist claim that Donald Trump, or excuse me, that President Obama was not born in the United States and was a Muslim, which was meant to be a damning claim of some kind.
		So the caller is absolutely right that the conspiracy theories and false ideas pushed on the right tend to get a lot more attention, a lot more coverage, especially right now when the president is a Republican and sort of every branch of government is controlled by the right.
		What we do see though, kind of more broadly in American history is that the beliefs that powerful groups of people are working in secret against the common good do occur on both the right and left.
		They tend to be different.
		The conspiracy theories that those groups hold tend to be different.
		For instance, it is probably more Common on the left than on the right to believe that consequential secrets about, you know, for instance, how GMOs impact our health are being hidden from us, stuff like that.
		Anti-vaccine beliefs, which are often rooted in conspiracy theories, tend to be kind of equally common on the right and the left.
		The idea, as I pointed to previously, that Donald Trump is not just, you know, favored by the Russian government, but is actually like a Russian asset, you know, a Manchurian candidate, that's obviously a more left-leaning idea.
		But the caller is making an incredibly important point, which is that the conspiracy theories promoted by the right and particularly the people in power right now get so much more oxygen, so much more air, and they also have a greater chance of impacting people's lives in a much more direct way.
		You know, somebody, as I have made the point over and over in my work, somebody in a position of power promoting a conspiracy theory can make it go a lot further than somebody who might believe in a conspiracy theory to explain a lack of power disenfranchisement in their own lives.
		You know, that is absolutely true, and it's a great point.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Linda is in Maine on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Linda.
unidentified		Yes, my concern is with the judicial system and the conspiracy theories possibly contaminating jury pools.
		You know, defense attorneys are tapping in to these conspiracy biases.
		And two examples of this is one case recently in Massachusetts that created a mob based on conspiracies.
		And also the case pending on the murder of the United Health Care CEO.
		Thank you.
		Yeah, that's an interesting point.
		I don't know a lot, and I don't know if we have a lot of kind of studies about whether conspiratorial thinking impacts juries or the application of the justice system.
		But again, this does point to the larger point that, you know, concerns about conspiratorial thinking impact kind of the right and left alike.
		And we do have examples, not so much in the United States, but in other countries, about misinformation leading to mob violence.
		There were a series of reports about kind of false rumors spreading on WhatsApp in, I believe, India and a couple of other places that did lead directly to kind of like vigilante justice and mob violence in the places where those spread.
		So I think the broader concern here, which is about how conspiratorial thinking or, you know, stigmatized views of other people can impact things like the justice system, things like how people are treated in the eyes of the law, I think that's, you know, that's a legitimate concern, if not something that I know a ton about.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Carrie is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Carrie.
unidentified		Good morning.
		First of all, let me say that a comment I'm calling on the Republican line, but Anna just or somebody pointed out in the last couple of minutes about Trump saying that Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen or he wasn't born here or whatever.
		I mean, totally, you know, of course, that's totally ridiculous.
		You know, it really is unacceptable, but that's par for, of course.
		I mean, politicians have been lying and promoting conspiracies on both sides for, I'm 63 years old and for like 40 years that I'm aware of.
		Anyhow, I first tuned in, Anna, and I got distracted because I heard Anna say, I heard you, Anna, say that, yeah, we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss all conspiracy theories just because they sound ridiculous or whatever.
		And I thought, oh, this sounds interesting.
		But then you lost some credibility with me.
		However, you redeemed yourself in a call a few minutes ago when you kind of corrected that gentleman who implied that all the conspiracy theories were promoted by the right and not by the left.
		And so you did correct him and say that they're and give examples of conspiracy theories on both sides.
		But what disturbed me and why you temporarily at least lost some of my credibility is when a woman called in and went on and on about, we're not terribly on and on, but what's been very heavily promoted by the left, and that is that, you know, Trump is a threat to democracy and anybody who believes in some of his policies and stuff like that are, you know, evil and Nazis and fascism is coming and everything.
		And I fully expected you either to take the easy way out and not answer it at all, but instead you kind of backed up that person and said, yeah, those are really valid claims, instead of saying something which I would hope to be such as, well, you know, I understand how you feel that way.
		A lot of people do, but understand that that, you know, may also just be a, may also be part of a conspiracy theory, you know, promoted by the left.
		You know, the extremes, the extremes on both ends are so ridiculous at this point.
		I just wish that moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats could come together and elect somebody normal.
		Thank you very much, I'll give you your answer.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Carol, before we let you go, though, if I understand you correctly, there were several moments in the conversation where you agreed with what Anna said and established her as credible in those moments, but in the moments that you disagreed, she lost credibility with you.
		And I'm asking this because this kind of relates to Anna's point earlier about how we determine credibility with people.
		And I wonder if you could explain that a bit more about how you're making those assessments.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		As I've been retired, I've kind of become a news junkie and obsessed, and I've always had an intense interest in world politics and economics.
		So I spend a ridiculous amount of time.
		I can't really stomach watching, I never could stomach watching MSNBC, except for maybe some comic relief, but I certainly can no longer stomach watching Fox News at all.
		Every now and again, I can watch CNN during the day when it's more the news shows versus the evening shows.
		People need to understand the evening shows are not news shows.
		They are basically entertainment shows.
		And the more extreme they are, the higher their ratings.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So I'm going to just pause you because I think we've got your idea.
		And I do want to give Anna a chance to respond.
		And thank you, Carrie, for adding that clarification about how you're consuming news.
		Anna, do you want to go ahead?
unidentified		Yeah, well, I'm so glad that I'm at least intermittently credible to the caller.
		Thank you, and thank you for listening with an open mind.
		I think that's really impressive.
		It sounds like you're somebody who's following current events very closely and is feeling at least somewhat frustrated with kind of every side of the aisle, which I think is, again, something that a lot of Americans can relate to.
		Certainly, I think the idea that people on the left just believe, sorry, let me phrase this a different way.
		We know from public polling that there is a pretty broad-based dissatisfaction, especially on the left, with some of President Trump's policies.
		This is kind of totally apart from the conversation that we're having about conspiratorial thinking, right?
		There is a dissatisfaction with dismantling large portions of the federal government, with essentially trying to sunset things like the Education Department, with the dismantling of large aspects of the public health system, of putting people in place like Elon Musk and Doge, who were, I think you would agree, unelected bureaucrats who were promoting, pursuing an agenda that was not necessarily the agenda that even President Trump's supporters necessarily voted for, right?
		I do agree with you that it is absolutely wrong to dismiss all of President Trump's supporters as Nazis, fascists, what have you.
		However, I do want to share something with you about specifically the sort of far-right support for Donald Trump, which is wavering a little bit right now for a bunch of reasons.
		Years ago, during the 2016 elections, I interviewed a white supremacist, somebody who was the leader of a white supremacist group, and I'm not going to use his name because it would make him happy.
		And he told me that he and his group were supporting Donald Trump, not because they believed Donald Trump was a fascist, but because they believed that Donald Trump could perhaps help them pursue some of their goals and agendas.
		But this person was also very much hoping that when people on the right, the MAGA base, became disaffected with Donald Trump, as they inevitably would, because people tend to not follow politicians forever.
		He was hoping that when the MAGA base became disaffected with MAGA, with the right, they would become fascists instead, that they would not instead go back towards the middle or the more moderate agenda, that they would be pushed even further to the right, even further towards, for instance, white supremacist and fascist and neo-Nazi ideas that he was very much hoping to promote.
anna merlan ▲ ● ▼		So there is a real danger here that we can look at in how bad actors, malicious actors, extremists in the true sense of the word are hoping to manipulate and benefit from our political discourse and push people who are disaffected with the political process and the establishment further into the arms of really, really, really negative, stigmatizing ideas that can do a lot of harm to society.
unidentified		So I don't know.
		I hope you'll consider that.
		But thank you for, thank you for paying attention to the news primarily.
		That is so important.
		It is so admirable.
		A lot of people are tuning out right now.
		So thank you for trying to stay engaged.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And thank you, Anna Merlin, who's a senior reporter at Mother Jones and the author of Republic of Lies, American Conspiracy Theorists and Their Surprising Rise to Power.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Anna, thank you for your time and expertise this morning.
unidentified		Thank you so much for having me and thanks to all the callers for their great questions.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Yes, thank you to all of our callers on today's edition of Washington Journal.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We're going to be back with another edition of the show tomorrow morning starting at 7 a.m. Eastern.

▲