CSPAN - Texas House Hearing on Congressional Redistricting Map

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Aug. 1, 2025 22:02-00:19 - CSPAN

02:16:52

Texas House Hearing on Congressional Redistricting Map

Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo Source

Participants

Main

al green

rep/d 07:59

chaplain rich stoglin

13:17

cody vasut

07:40

greg casar

rep/d 11:29

jasmine crockett

rep/d 33:50

Appearances

jolanda jones

d 03:55

lloyd doggett

rep/d 04:49

marc veasey

rep/d 04:36

sylvia garcia

rep/d 04:39

Large

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Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
People Of Texas Won't Forget 00:15:09
unidentified		Plus a variety of compelling podcasts.
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		Download it for free today.
		C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
		And past President Dominic.
		Why are you doing this?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		This is outrageous.
unidentified		This is a tangoro.
		This fall, C-SPAN presents a rare moment of unity.
		Ceasefire, where the shouting stops and the conversation begins.
		Join Political Playbook Chief Correspondent and White House Bureau Chief Dasha Burns as host of Ceasefire, bringing two leaders from opposite sides of the aisle into a dialogue to find common ground.
		Ceasefire, this fall, on the network that doesn't take sides, only on C-SPAN.
		Next, the Texas House of Representatives holds a hearing for the Select Committee on Congressional Redistricting.
		They're getting public input following the release of a new proposed map amid the legislature's attempt to redraw its federal congressional map.
		In this section, Democratic members of Congress representing Texas testified in opposition of the proposed map.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		The House Select Committee on Congressional Redistricting will come back to order.
		If everybody can.
		Oh.
		You bet.
		Our court reporter ready?
		I scared you.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		I will do better.
		Everybody ready?
		Okay.
		If you all could make your way to your seats, we're going to go to public testimony at this time.
		The chair is going to call up our first panel, and then I'm going to read off what will be the second panel.
		So if I read off your name on the first panel, come up to these first four seats right here.
		If I read your name off on the second panel, we will just have you come into the room and be ready.
		First panel is going to be Al Green, Mark Veazey, Lloyd Doggett, and Greg Kazar, and Kassar.
		And panel two is going to be Jasmine Crockett, Sylvia Garcia, Colin Allred, and Chaplin Stoglin.
		So if those, the last four I mentioned, if you could just be ready.
		Bear with us one moment while we get our system uploaded here.
al green ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		All right.
al green ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Mr. Green, we're going to have you go first.
		Chair shows you registered to testify as Al Green on behalf of yourself and CD9 against House Bill 4.
		Is that correct?
al green ▲ ● ▼		Entirely correct.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please give us your testimony.
al green ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		I thank all of the persons assembled.
		Mr. Chairman, it is no secret that the president is not enthralled with Al Green.
		And I would dare say that he considers me his chief nemesis in Congress.
		And well, he should, because I've laid the foundation for his impeachment, and I intend to lay the foundation for his impeachment again.
		This president has ordered that what we do today be done.
		He has demonstrated to us that he is not only going to manage the federal government, but he's also going to manage the government in the state of Texas.
		I believe Texans ought to take a stand against what President Trump is demanding of the people in the state of Texas.
		It's time for us to let the president know that Texans will take care of their business, that he can't demand that we do something that, quite frankly, is not only racial, but is racist.
		I speak truth to power and I speak truth about power.
		It is not enough for things to be right.
		They must also look right.
		It does not look right for us to see CD 9 and CD 18 packed.
		And that's what's happened.
		You've packed 9 and 18.
		You have 18, but you no longer have the 9 that you had before.
		We are losing representation.
		And I'm going to stand against it.
		I want you to know that I can't say as much as I'd like to say in two minutes.
		And I trust that I'll have someone to ask questions so that I can deal with Pettaway and how it's being applied today.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for your testimony.
		Members, we'll come to the questions of the panels at the end.
		Chair Rousseau, Representative Hinajosa on the dais.
		Okay.
		Next witness, Chair, will call Mark Veaze.
		Shall you register to testify as Mark Veazy on behalf of yourself against House Bill 4?
		Is that correct?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Positively, absolutely correct.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please give us your testimony.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		My name is Mark Veacee.
		I represent the 33rd Congressional District.
		I'm a resident of Fort Worth.
		And I wanted to remind everybody that the district that I represent, it was created by a federal court to ensure that communities of color, black and brown Texans, could finally have a voice in Congress.
		And for over a decade, those communities have used that voice to elect the leaders who reflect their values and fight for their future.
		And I've been honored to earn that trust.
		But now that voice is, again, under threat.
		This is a map that was drawn behind closed doors, as we've heard here today, to dismantle representation and weaken our power and turn back the clock.
		Donald Trump and Republican lawmakers want to erase this district, not because it's broken or there's anything wrong with it, because it empowers people they'd rather simply ignore.
		Just a few weeks ago, Governor Abbott and Republican lawmakers stood in the federal court and swore under oath that this map was legal because it was drawn, quote, race blind.
		Now those very Republican lawmakers claim that the map they drew is illegal because it was drawn with enough racial intent.
		And so let me be clear about this.
		This isn't about fairness or compliance.
		This is about control.
		It's about erasing the progress that communities of color have made through decades of organizing, voting, and sacrifice.
		And the numbers don't lie.
		95% of Texas population growth came from these communities of color.
		And yet those communities are targeted and sidelined.
		And that's not what democracy is about.
		That's discrimination, and it is illegal.
		And as John Lewis said, our former colleague, our vote is precious.
		It is almost sacred.
		It is the most powerful nonviolent tool that we have in a democratic society.
		And so when you rig maps to silence that vote, you are not protecting democracy.
		You are burying it.
		So we're not going to go backwards, not now and not ever.
		Thank you.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for your testimony.
		Chair calls Lloyd Doggett.
		Shall you register to testify as Lloyd Dockett on behalf of yourself against House Bill 4?
		Is that correct?
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please give us your testimony.
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		You know, in 30 years, I've never testified at a Texas legislative redistricting hearing because I have doubted whether a majority of those committees had an ear or an inclination to truly listen.
		If this is a genuine hearing and not a sham proceeding, ignoring thousands of people that have spoken out against this redistricting plan, then I believe you will vote promptly to reject this outrageous gerrymander.
		This is not a Texas map.
		It is a Trump map.
		It was not requested by any Republican or any Democrat in Texas.
		It was imposed by President Trump, who has a stranglehold on Congress.
		And the only question here is whether he also has his stranglehold on this Texas legislature.
		I am an unusual opponent of this plan.
		Two-thirds of the people that I represent today in Congressional District 37, the district in which I have already filed for re-election, are included in the new 37.
		My concern is not so much about what happened to my district as what is happening to my neighbors, to my Texas colleagues, and most importantly, to American democracy.
		Now, conveniently forgotten here today so far has been the racial justification for what's happening here.
		The only public justification of this map is a Department of Justice directive to Governor Abbott saying specifically that there was unconstitutional racial-based gerrymandering in the past, that it must be abandoned, must be corrected, and then it reserves the right in the concluding sentence to bring legal action if you don't act to correct this race.
		So the objective may be to help President Trump, which is the sole objective, but the tool is race, just as President Trump has so often used race.
		If we have this kind of partisan gerrymandering in Texas, it will spread across the country, just as California has said they can eliminate five to seven Republicans.
		That's bad for all of America.
		Put a stop to it today.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for your testimony.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		The chair calls, Chair Richow, Representative Raymond on the dice.
unidentified		Chair calls, I did, okay.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		We will bring Representative Kazar up on the next panel, actually.
		Okay, we'll do that.
		Thank you for that, Vice Chair.
		So with that, members, any questions for the members of this panel?
		Chair recognizes Vice Chair Rosenthal to question the panel.
unidentified		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		And thank you all for taking the time to be here today.
		I want to direct my first question to Congressman Al Green.
		You alluded to a little bit about recent court casing.
		Can you help us understand how that affects what we should be, how we should interpret these proceedings today?
al green ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm familiar with the Pettaway case.
		And that case did not say that minorities cannot coalesce and vote for the candidate of their choice.
		It didn't say that.
		It said that if you want to use that to establish a protected class, you cannot.
		But it doesn't mean that minorities, you can't have a district that consists of minorities who are electing a minority person.
		That's what Pettaway said.
		The Justice Department got it wrong.
		This is the same Justice Department, by the way, that would allow your daughters to be taken off the street by men with masks.
		The same Justice Department that defies court orders.
		The same Justice Department that seems to believe that in this country, the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution only applies when the President thinks that it does.
		So it's got it wrong.
		And in Pettaway, which is out of Galveston County, there was an effort to acquire a seat for a commissioner, and they wanted it to have protected class.
		It dealt with that specific type of incident.
		And Mr. Spiller, I believe you'll agree with that.
		That's what it dealt with.
		It did not deal with the notion that you cannot have blacks and browns voting together to elect the candidate of their choice.
		And I would add one more thing to this.
		This is very important.
		When you do that now as you're doing it, when you do what you're doing now, you're enforcing the racism that the president is imposing upon the state of Texas.
		Don't become the president's next arm in Texas.
		He already has some.
		I don't want you to become more.
		Don't do that.
		It's time to allow justice to prevail.
		This is a gross injustice to decide that you're going to simply take 9 and 18 crack and then pack, not compact, pack them, and eliminate 9 as we know it.
		By the way, 9 has been moved.
		I still live in 18.
		18 is more 9 than it is 18.
		It is.
		If you look at the numbers, you just chosen that 18 as the number for it.
		But you didn't move my constituents when you move nine, the number nine.
		My constituents are still in Sunnyside.
		They're still in South Park.
		They're still in Haram Clark.
		And they're still voting for me.
		I want you to remember this, dear brothers and sisters.
		People of Texas are not going to forget this.
		This is something that is permeating our society.
		This is not just black people who are angry.
		White people are angry too.
		I said white, not Anglo.
		White people are angry too.
		There is no need for you to do this when babies have died and we need to take care of those families.
		What are we doing?
		How can we ignore what happened with the Guadalupe?
		How can we put that off and decide that gerrymandering is more important than taking care of the lives of those people?
		The people of Texas are not going to forget this.
		They're not going to forget because I'm not going to let them.
		They're not going to forget.
		I welcome any other questions.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
		I do have a question for Congressman Doggett.
		So, Mr. Doggett, you brought up that you notice that the overwhelming testimony in these hearings has been opposed to this whole process, right?
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Were you aware?
		So besides the fact that we heard from hundreds and hundreds of Texans and maybe one or two said they were in favor of this out of hundreds and hundreds, my team scoured the online submissions.
		And so here's something you might not be aware of.
		Almost exactly 3,800 submissions, only 48 in support.
		That's less than, it's like 1.2%.
		So would you agree with me that along with Congressman Greene, the people of Texas will not forget what's happening here today?
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		And I think the numbers would be even greater if there were broader public understanding of the wrong that's being committed, of the way that communities are being divided, communities of interest, communities that have worked together, that have wanted an accessible member of Congress, whether Republican or Democrat, members, citizens that want to assure they have accountable representation, that if they have a town hall, their member is not afraid to come and visit with them.
Diluting Minority Voices 00:15:33
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		If they have a problem in their neighborhood, in their city, that there is an accessible member of Congress that will be there to respond.
		The needs of Texans of both parties seem to have been largely forgotten here in terms of having accessible, reliable representation instead of some kind of incredibly gerrymandered districts that deny them that accessible representation.
		But I have to come back and say, and I don't know if there was a division in the numbers you mentioned, that while giving President Trump control of the Congress, which he's about to lose without these kind of gerrymandering plans, that the tool that is being used is race.
		And that's at the heart of this, as Representative Green pointed out.
		Were it not for the Justice Department of President Trump sending a message to Governor Abbott on July the 7th saying, get this job done within a month, correct the racial gerrymandering that has occurred, I will admit, as a lifelong resident of this city, I never realized that Republicans discriminating against white people was a big problem in our state, but the Justice Department did.
		And they said there was racial gerrymandering and that you need to correct it, and you need to correct it fast, or we're going to initiate a lawsuit against you under the Constitution.
		And so race was the tool that is being used to advance the Trump interest, but it is central in what's happening with this map.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Representative Turners recognized the question of the panel.
unidentified		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		I've got a few questions for Congressman Vesey about Congressional District 33.
		And because I wanted to walk through the history of Congressional District 33, and I've got some maps here of different iterations, and I'm wondering if Mr. McQueen, would you mind passing that to the Congressman?
		And I've got an extra set here.
		I'm going to provide a Chairman Hunter just so he can see what we're talking about.
		I've got to put the marker.
		Yeah.
al green ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Congressman Vesey, thank you for being here.
		And I want to just talk about you alluded to Congressional District 33 and how it was created.
		I kind of want to walk through the history of it for a few minutes with you, if I could, because there's a lot of problems with this map, this bill that we have before us right now.
		Right.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		And I served on the redistricting committee.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And for members' reference, Representative Nicole Collier succeeded you in the House, right?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
unidentified		Okay.
		So this map that I provided you and Chairman Hunter, this is the plan C-185 adopted by the legislature in 2011.
		Is that right?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		And did you vote for this plan?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		No, I did not vote for this plan.
unidentified		From a Tarrant County perspective, you were representing House District 95 at that time.
		Did you feel that this map was harmful to your constituents?
		Oh, yeah.
		House District 95.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		This map was absolutely harmful to the constituency that I represented.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		There was no question about that.
unidentified		How so?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Basically, what this map did was split the black community and the brown communities in Fort Worth up into just a bunch of little pieces so they would have no voting strength and being able to have influence in congressional races.
unidentified		Right.
		So basically, it took the predominantly black and Hispanic neighborhoods in Fort Worth.
		I'm looking, just eyeballing this, looks like the north side, the Hispanic north side of Fort Worth.
		Looks like Como, which I think is where you grew up.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Right, that is correct.
unidentified		And then a big chunk of what was then your House district in southeast Fort Worth and submerged those minority neighborhoods into Congressional District 26, which would be dominated by voters in Denton.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		In Denton County, that is correct.
unidentified		Okay.
		And this map then was the subject of a lawsuit in a federal court in San Antonio later that year, is that right?
		Correct.
		Okay.
		And what was the outcome of that litigation with respect to the configuration of the congressional districts in Tarrant and Dallas counties?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		The court ruled that the district was unconstitutional and violated the voting rights of minorities.
		And as a result, the district was changed.
		The primaries were actually moved that year because of the changes to that map.
		And so instead of having a March first, the first Tuesday of March like we normally do in Texas, the primaries were moved until the end of May and the runoffs were held July 31st.
unidentified		Okay.
		And so as a result of that court decision, the map was reconfigured.
		I have to go to the second handout now.
		This is plan C 2100, U.S. Congressional Districts 2013 to 2022, really 2012 to 2022.
		But this configuration of Congressional District 33 was ordered by the federal court to remedy what they found to be a discriminatory map adopted by the legislature.
		Right, that is correct.
		Okay.
		And so then this court-ordered map that was then ratified by the legislature in 2013 unified north side of Fort Worth, southeast Fort Worth,
		basically House District 95 for the most part, and it unified that with parts of Arlington and Grand Prairie areas that I represent here in the Texas House that are also heavily minority along with minority neighborhoods on the west side of Dallas County.
		Correct.
		Okay.
		And so since that time period, Congressional District 33 has been a majority minority district.
		Correct.
		In which minority voters in Tarrant and Dallas counties have repeatedly demonstrated the ability to elect the candidate of their choice.
		Correct.
		And that's been you in each election.
		And then in 2021, the last time we did redistricting under the bill Chairman Hunter authored or sponsored, technically, in 2021, Congressional District 33 was reconfigured and redrawn, but still remained a majority minority congressional district.
		Is that right?
		That is correct.
		And voters in Congressional District 33 since 2021 and today maintain the ability to elect the candidate of their choice.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Right, that is absolutely correct.
unidentified		Okay.
		So now we turn to the current map, which I didn't give you a handout of that, but I think you've been looking at it.
		So this is House Bill 4 that the committee has before now.
		And CD 33 is shifted eastward totally into Dallas County.
		But with respect to Fort Worth and Tarrant County more broadly, the majority minority neighborhoods that were subsumed in 2011 into that Denton County district.
		Yeah.
		What happens to those neighborhoods in Fort Worth under House Bill 4 under this current bill?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, those neighborhoods are split up and paired into rural districts.
		It looks like most of them are put into the district that Roger Williams currently represents.
		And District 33, of course, is entirely in Dallas County.
		It remains a coalition district.
		The Latino population has actually dropped, so it does remain a coalition district.
		I know the governor had said that he was getting rid of coalition districts, but that's not the case.
		It's still a coalition district.
		But the representation in Fort Worth Is 100% for the black communities and brown communities in Fort Worth.
		Their representation and their ability to have influence in elections are gone.
		It's done.
unidentified		Yeah.
		They're basically cracked into really between looks like Congressional District 12, the north side and part of the south side are going to go into CD 12.
		And then the balance of southeast Fort Worth is going to go, and along with Forest Hill and Evermond, are going to go into CD 25, which stretches out to Callahan County, a couple miles west of Fort Worth.
		Right.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Nothing in common with those communities.
unidentified		And that's so basically this map, House Bill 4, with respect to minority communities in Fort Worth, in Tarrant County, it achieves the same goal that the map in 2011 did in a different way, but it accomplishes the same goal: diluting and really destroying the voice of minority voters in Fort Worth.
unidentified		And that's what the federal court found to be unconstitutional.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		That is why we have the delayed primaries, and that is why the map was redrawn the way that it was in 2011.
unidentified		Okay.
		And do you have any idea?
		Last question, do you have any idea why it would be a good idea for the legislature to adopt a map that commits the same mistake that a federal court ruled to be unconstitutional in 2011?
marc veasey ▲ ● ▼		I think it makes no sense at all for the committee to adopt a map that was struck down for those very same reasons and could possibly lead to Republicans destroying the opportunities for the Republicans in other states if it happens here in Texas.
		I mean, if I'm Daryl Issa, I'm thinking I'm calling the chairman of the Texas state legislature right now.
		If I'm Representative Calvert, if I am any of those Republicans, I'm like, dude, what are y'all doing to us?
		Y'all are about to make us lose our seats, too.
		And I don't think this is good for the country.
unidentified		I agree.
		Thank you.
		Thank you, Congress.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Members, any other questions for the members of this panel?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Chair recognizes Representative Hickland to question the panel.
unidentified		Representative Doggett, thank you so much for being with us today and making the trip.
		I appreciate that.
		In your testimony and comments, I noticed that you focused a lot on race.
		Are you concerned at all that treating minority communities as monolithic voting blocks for one political party actually risks violating the spirit and letter of the Voting Rights Act, especially when we're looking at the political performance that you can see in the Valley?
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		My concern is that when you have maps that have gotten approval of a federal court that recognize voting rights districts that provide opportunities for people of color in our state to be represented, have the kind of effective advocates that we have at this table and that you will hear from shortly from other colleagues, that it's wrong to come in and begin to dismantle that.
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		And I don't find any justification in the Department of Justice directive to the governor to call this special session on race and don't believe that there was racial gerrymandering in any form that would justify either this map or the Justice Department taking any legal action.
unidentified		Thank you.
		I would refer to Chairman Hunter's comments about that we're responding to the call and not necessarily the DOJ letter.
		Thank you again.
lloyd doggett ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Members, any other questions for the members of this panel?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Representative Manuels recognized a question of panel.
al green ▲ ● ▼		Panel.
unidentified		Congressman Green, I promise I'll make this short.
		Can you explain to let me ask it like this, does this feel adversarial towards you as a black person, as a black man, and to your constituents who are would say a rainbow group of people of black, Hispanic, gay, straight, everything.
		Does this feel like retaliation based on who you are and the past of what it has been for black people when they've spoken out against administrations in this country?
al green ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for the question.
		And I heard you bring it up earlier, and I'm pleased that you would ask again.
		It is without question, reservation, hesitation, or equivocation that I remind everyone that we have a history in this country of expecting black men to be subservient.
		I am not subservient.
		I will not kneel.
		I don't kiss rings or any part of anybody's anatomy.
		We have allowed ourselves to have the plutocrats dictate the policies for the state of Texas.
		The plutocrats.
		Government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich.
		The plutocrats.
		They are the people who are dictating.
		We are pawns on a political chessboard.
		That's what we become.
		They have literally used the influence of the almighty dollar to cause what's happening today.
		And we've got to get money out of politics because if we don't, there will be no politics for the average person.
		Baker versus Carr will mean nothing.
		That's one man, one vote for those who may not know.
		It would mean nothing.
		The president assembled some of the richest people in the world and they are telling us what to do.
		You and I should be on the same page, Mr. Spiller.
		We should be working together against those people in Washington, D.C. who are trying to tell us here in Texas how to run our business.
		Texans are strong.
		Texans don't allow themselves to be dictated to.
		And that's what we have in the White House now.
Why We Left America 00:01:39
al green ▲ ● ▼		An authoritarian who defies court orders, who doesn't recognize due process of the law, who will allow your daughters to be picked up by men with masks and taken away.
		This is not the America we've wanted to have.
		This is not the government of, by, and for the people that we've fought for.
		And if we are not very careful, we're going to let it slide too far.
		And it's going to be difficult to bring it back.
		We are normalizing hate and bigotry in this country.
		I thank you for the question.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Members, any other questions for the members of this panel?
		Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.
		This panel is excused.
		Chair, we'll call up Greg Kazar, Jasmine Crockett, Sylvia Garcia, and Chaplin Stocklin.
unidentified		Thank you, Jamie.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		If those four could make their way up to these tables.
		And once you've testified, if you wouldn't mind freeing up space in the room for those to come in, I know you've done it before.
		I appreciate your courtesy for that.
		And the next panel, after these four, if you could go ahead and make your way to the room, will be Gary Bledsoe, Anita Batiste, Colin Allred, and Dr. Frederick Haynes.
		If those four could make their way into the room.
		And we've got, I believe we've been working where we got some four chairs over here on this side.
Betrayal Of District 30 00:15:26
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		So if y'all make yourselves at home.
unidentified		Kazar is not here.
unidentified		Maybe you want to do that.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		We'll go ahead and get started with those here, and then we'll pick up Mr. Kazar last.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		All right.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		We're working on bringing the panel up in the system.
unidentified		Okay.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		All right, we'll start with Ms. Crockett.
		I'll show you register to testify as Jasmine Crockett on behalf of U.S. Rep, Jasmine Crockett, and SELF against House Bill 4.
		Is that correct?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please give us your testimony.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		So, first of all, it is a sham that we sit here and y'all pretend as if you care about what the people have to say, but we are going to make y'all listen as long as you will.
		This map does nothing but divide, distract, and depress.
		There is this idea that was put out there during his opening remarks that this does so much for black folk.
		Well, let me tell you, as a black person, it does not.
		Let me tell you that in this map, to be clear, y'all added two new more, you added two additional Anglo-majority seats.
		Now, when we went through the 21 maps, you added two Anglo-majority seats, and now you're adding two more Anglo-majority seats.
		And then you've decided that you are going to pack and crack, and that is the language that I am going to use because that is the legal language.
		And I also just want to remind y'all really quickly that it does not look good when you take every economic engine out of my district and then tell me that I am supposed to sit here and be so happy because you added black folk from a whole other community.
		When you want to talk about monoliths and whether or not they exist, this idea that you just take people and move them around, I have 200,000 people who were never in my district, and my district is 766,000 playing move minorities around so that you can somehow claim that this is nothing but partisanship.
		The only way that you get here is by making sure that you trample upon the rights and the liberties and the voices of minorities.
		So, let me give you a few facts about the state of Texas.
		The state of Texas only has 39% Anglos.
		Yet somehow under this map, we are going to have somewhere near 60-something, almost 70% of these seats are going to be chosen by Anglos.
		If we were looking for fairness and to follow the Voting Rights Act, you'd have 15 Latino opportunity seats, 15 Anglo seats.
		You'd then have four African-American opportunity seats.
		Then you'd have two Asian opportunity seats, and the other two seats would belong to coalitions because we are a majority, minority state where over 60% of this population is people of color.
		So, if you want to do what's fair and right under the Voting Rights Act, as well as if you say that this Fifth Circuit Court case matters and somehow changes everything, my question to you is, when are y'all gonna do y'all's maps?
		Because you did your maps in 2021 and then the case came out, and I haven't seen y'all talk about the fact that you're gonna redistrict the House and the Senate.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for your testimony.
		Chair calls Greg Kazar.
		I'll show you register to testify as Greg Kazar on behalf of yourself against House Bill 4.
		Is that correct?
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please give us your testimony.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		I want to start with the elephant in the room.
		No lawmaker here, Republican or Democratic, is actually making decisions about Texas's maps.
		No one, in fact, in this state is making decisions about Texas's maps.
		The Republican members on this dais have outsourced our state's democracy to Mar-a-Lago and to the Oval Office.
		You're saying to Texas voters that you don't get to pick who represents you.
		Donald Trump gets to pick who represents you.
		I see this as a betrayal, a betrayal of the people in our state in service of a corrupt president who only cares about maintaining his own power.
		Here's the result.
		In this proposed map, 10 million Texans would get thrown out of their district into another district for no good reason.
		And two-thirds of those who are getting moved around are Texans of color.
		This proposal illegally suppresses the votes of black and Hispanic and working-class Americans, just like George Wallace did, just like Bull Connor did, just like Governor Alan Shivers of Texas did, just like every other Jim Crow era villain that you and I read about in our history classes did.
		And I want to say a word about how this affects my home city of Austin, Texas, to wring as much power out of this as possible.
		Trump is demanding that we create districts that make no sense.
		The southern part of the Austin metro area gets gerrymandered into Port Aransas.
		Northern parts of the city get gerrymandered into Midland Odessa.
		The drive between Midland Odessa and Port Aransas, which I know some of us have made, is eight hours long.
		That is tearing apart my home's community in order to preserve billionaires' power.
		Please do not tear apart our home for the benefit of Donald Trump.
		It's the same old story over and over, corrupt politicians trying to change the rules to drown out the voices of working class people and communities of color.
		Donald Trump is the most corrupt president in American history.
		Ken Paxton, the most corrupt politician in Texas history.
		Do not be in on their scheme.
		Thank you very much.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Chair will show Representative Guerra is now present.
		Good to have you with us, Bobby.
		Chair calls Sylvia Garcia.
		Shall you register to testify on behalf of yourself against House Bill 4?
		Is that correct?
sylvia garcia ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please give us your testimony.
sylvia garcia ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		And you'll recall I am in from District 29, one of the targets that was listed in the Department of Justice letter.
		District 29 was created in 1990.
		It was made to be a majority Latino district and has remained a majority Latino district for 35 years.
		As a congresswoman for CD 29, I have focused on the needs of the working families in Houston to ensure that they have a voice in Congress.
		I am the lead sponsor of the American Dream and Promise Act to provide citizenship for DREAMers who are brought here to the United States as children.
		And I sponsored the Keeping the Families Together Act, prohibiting eviction of mixed-status families in HUD housing, directly benefiting working Latino families.
		I have had a long public service career in Houston at all levels of government, including being a judge and being here in the legislature as a state senator.
		And since 1990, Houston Latinos have always had representation in Congress of their preferred candidate.
		But this bill, if passed in its current form, will no longer make that true.
		This is significant and material.
		Harris County would no longer have a Latino opportunity district.
		And the current plan, CD29, has a Hispanic citizen voting age percentage of 63.5%.
		HB4 lowers this by 20 points down to 43%, less than 50%.
		By lowering the CVAC, Latino candidates have a diminished chance of winning nomination in the primary elections.
		HB4 dismantles a protected Latino Opportunity District, Which has functioned to elect the Latino candidate of choice for three decades.
		As of the 2020 U.S. Census, Harris County Latino population was about 2,034,000 people.
		If this bill passes, there will no longer be a congressional district in Harris County that elects a candidate of choice for 2 million people.
		This is a shame.
		It's a disgrace.
		It violates federal law and potential United States and Texas constitutions.
		I urge you to stop this illegal redistricting and focus on the true needs of Texans.
		Texans know what to do.
		We don't need a con man from New York telling Texas what to do.
		Thank you, and I yield back.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for testimony.
		Chair calls Chaplain Stoglin.
		Shall you register to testify on behalf of the Frederick Douglass Republicans of Tarrant County?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		For House Bill 4, is that correct?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please give us your testimony.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		The renewed, the renowned economist Dr. Thomas Sewell stated: when you want to help people, you tell them the truth.
		When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.
		Thrucitus, the Greek warrior commando general, who later became a classic writer and philosopher, wrote in the history of the Paloponnesian War: the society that separates his scholars from his warriors will have his thinking done by cowards and his fighting done by fools.
		While the founder of the Frederick Douglass Republicans of Tarrant County, the late Honorable Rebu Carey, stated, especially to black and brown Americans, be an informed, intelligent voter.
		Make your vote count.
		Remember, freedom isn't free.
		Someone has to pay the price.
		Historically, Texas has elected 40 Democrats, one Independent, one Unionist, and six Republican governors.
		We must read and evaluate the prosperity of our great state under each party.
		On 4 through 6, 1867, in Houston, Texas, the Republican Party of Texas was created by 150 colored men and 20 white men.
		They did this in the name of justice then, and we are requesting redistricting in the name of justice now.
		I echo their clarion call to have Republican leadership in the great state of Texas.
		As a black American, Afghanistan veteran, a retired department head of the U.S. Department of Justice, I strongly support the Republican redistricting.
		I do not want, nor does the great state of Texas or this magnificent nation deserve to continue seeing systemic gang and street violence, a plummeting educational system, communities deteriorating, men and women, sports, et cetera, while Democrats sit quietly and fail to condemn or acknowledge the systemic moral decay, screaming systemic racism for anything that does not fit their narrative.
		These acts of evil must stop.
		We need Republican leadership for such a time as this.
		Republicans have a larger story.
		The late General Colin Powell stated, None of us can change our yesterdays, but we all can change our tomorrows.
		We need and must have increased Republican leadership in the great state of Texas to remain great.
		As president of the Frederick Douglass Republicans of Tarrant County, I stand behind this statement.
		Thank you.
		Simplify.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Stoglin, I heard you said I a few times in your testimony.
		I had you registered only on behalf of the Frederick Douglass Republicans of Tarrant County.
		Do I have your permission to modify your registration to be also on behalf of yourself?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're going to do that right now.
		Thank you for your testimony.
		Members, any questions for the members of this panel?
		Chair calls Representative Man, you have questions?
		Okay, Representative Turner.
		Recognize the question of the panel.
unidentified		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		Questions for Congresswoman Crockett.
		Thank you for being here.
		You mentioned in your testimony that this proposal, House Bill 4, removes economic engines from Congressional District 30.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Could you elaborate on that?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		So Dallas-Love Airport has historically been in District 30, maybe since it was created, which was also in 1990.
		It is gone now.
		All of downtown Dallas, which has ATT headquarters, Goldman Sachs is there, and a number of others.
		Entirety of downtown has been removed as well.
		As well as right there, I didn't, this isn't necessarily one of the economic engines, but right there at the airport is a historic Freedman's Town.
		And so I do have a number of Freedmen's Towns in general that are in my district.
		They removed that one that is right there by the airport, and they also removed, no, that's the only one that they removed.
		From what I can tell, I've not had a great opportunity to review these maps.
		It's been slow.
		And then they also removed the medical center.
		And what is so heartbreaking specifically about them removing the medical center from this district is that one of the three ARPA-H facilities that was authorized under the previous administration, the state of Texas is the only one, the only Republican state to get one, and I got it to come to my district.
		We're talking about tons of jobs.
		We're talking about a lot of money overall for medical research, and they removed that as well.
		As of now, I am unclear as to what economic engines really do still exist within the current iteration of my district.
unidentified		And you're right, I know that Lovefield, downtown, those have historically been parts of Congressional District 30, dating back to Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson's early years in Congress.
		So it is shocking to see them removed.
		You mentioned how the map brings you further into Tarrant County.
		Yes.
		And so you would represent a big chunk of Arlington under this proposal.
		But I noted in looking at the boundaries of the map in Arlington, it takes Congressional District 30 right up to the edge of UT Arlington.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		But doesn't include UT Arlington County.
		Correct.
		And it takes you right up to the edge of the General Motors Plant, but does not include the General Motors Plant.
		Right.
		So those are, and it certainly doesn't include the entertainment district.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		And so those are three economic engines in Arlington, which you would represent a much larger portion of, but they would not be in your district either.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		That is absolutely right.
		And it's interesting that you bring up the Tarrant County aspect.
		I do want to be clear because we are talking about the Voting Rights Act.
		When we're talking about the Voting Rights Act, we're talking specifically about Section 2.
		Section 2 is about race.
		So we will continue to mention race because that is the law.
		Section 2 and the Voting Rights Act overall was codified to basically further explain the 15th Amendment of the Constitution, which again was about race.
		So that's why we're talking about it.
		So when you look at Dallas County and the way that they have sliced it up, Dallas County is one of the most diverse counties in the entire state of Texas.
		But unfortunately, what they've done is they've taken those minority communities and they've separated them out.
		They've either divided them into random districts that have nothing to do with the things that they need.
		They're not communities of common interest, or they've packed them into districts and now they're claiming, oh, we created a new something for you, so be happy.
		And it's not true.
		So when it comes to Tarrant County, unfortunately, Congressional District 33 was pretty much anchored in Tarrant County.
Addressing Coalition Districts 00:15:19
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		All of those historic black areas, Stop Six, and others, they now are supposedly going to be represented by somebody who's probably never, ever going to walk those streets.
		I just want to be honest about that.
		And so the Tarrant County portion, in my opinion, it is being failed right now because what it should be is it should be either majority in Tarrant County or linked with other people in Tarrant County that are more communities of interest, or there should just be a whole wholly contained Tarrant County district.
		And they could absolutely do that.
		And they're choosing not to.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		And my view of the Tarrant County portion of the map is that, tell me if you agree with this, the minority voting strength in Tarrant County is greatly diminished through classic cracking in the case of CD 33 and packing in the case of CD 30.
		Absolutely.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		That's fair to say.
		That's absolutely.
		They used CD 30 to pack it up with minorities that they felt like maybe wouldn't go along with the white supremacist agenda, but yes.
unidentified		And the previous comment, I think, from the bill author may be in response to that.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Has there ever been a question?
		I mean that that's not even been the position of the state.
		I am engaged in litigation from the 2021 maps where they used CD 30 in a similar way.
		And actually at the time that the 2021 maps, well, as we were working on the maps and the numbers came out, CD30 had a naturally occurring population of 52% citizen voting age population being African American.
		This legislature in 21 decided to pull it down from being over 50%.
		And they were allowed to do so because federal law says that it's more so about will this still perform as an African-American opportunity seat.
		So they did not do me a favor and somehow create an African-American opportunity seat.
		And their position in this current litigation that has not been resolved has been that CD30 is protected under the Voting Rights Act as an African American opportunity seat.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		And back to the last question, back to economic issues briefly.
		Federal courts have historically looked at redistricting plans and when legislatures have removed key economic engines from majority minority districts and districts represented by minority members of Congress or minority legislators.
		They have, is it fair to say they have taken a dim view of legislatures doing that?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		They have absolutely taken a dim view, which is one of the reasons that I brought that up.
		In addition to the fact that I know that this legislature did ask us as members of Congress to confirm our addresses, I don't know how many of us actually still reside in the districts that we represent.
		I do not currently reside in my district based upon the plan that has been drawn, which is another red flag, in addition to courts consistently looking at how many people have been moved.
		And when we do the math, our districts are approximately 766,000 people.
		All of a sudden, randomly moving approximately 200,000 people out and another 200,000 people in because Tarrant County, I only had about 50,000 people in the current iteration.
		Now I'm going to have 250,000 people from Tarrant County.
unidentified		All right.
		That's information I didn't know.
		So the legislature, as Texas Legislative Council, asked you recently for your home address?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Prior to us actually, yeah, prior to the testimony actually beginning, the public testimony that took place, they asked us to certify that our addresses were still correct as well as the census track.
		And we confirmed that and we emailed back and I got confirmation that they received it.
		Yet I know I was removed from my district.
		I know Mark Veace was removed from his district.
		I know Julie Johnson's not in her district.
		And I can't.
		Joaquin is not in his.
		Listen, they took all of us out.
		They basically left the numbers somewhere else and removed us, is all I know, which is yet another thing that the courts will look at.
		I will be clear that I have every intention of going to court as soon as possible to get an emergency action done because I do feel as if there is a violation right now if this map passes of the Voting Rights Act for so many reasons.
unidentified		Thank you very much, Congresswoman.
unidentified		Mr. Chairman, can I ask the chairman and the bill author if the committee or legislative council requested to verify home address information for members of Congress and that information was received, why was that information disregarded and members of Congress, particularly minority members of Congress representing majority minority districts, were seemingly intentionally drawn out of their districts?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Chair is not advised or aware of that.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		So we'll understood and we'll look into it.
unidentified		Would the bill author be able to be able to address that?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Bill Author is not currently at this time.
		I mean, you can ask him at close.
		Yeah, but I don't know.
unidentified		I'd be curious.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Because it's legislative counsel.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what legislative counsel receives or not.
unidentified		I'd be curious to know if the law firm Butler Snow that ostensibly drew the map had that information and did they just choose to disregard it?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Understood.
		Let's see.
		Going back to Mr. Stogglin, real quick before we go to our next question, whenever we change you to register on behalf of yourself as well, we need to list your occupation.
		Would you mind telling me your occupation that we could list on your registration?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I'm retired.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Retired.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Yes.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		And we have your permission to put that on your registration?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		All right.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		We've done it.
		Thank you very much.
		Next questioner.
		We had Representative Spiller.
		Let's recognize the question of the panel.
unidentified		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		I've got a few questions for Congresswoman Crockett.
		If you don't mind, thank you for being here today.
		You referenced in your testimony a few things about the Voting Rights Act, Section 2 in particular.
		You talked about the Pettaway case, talked about coalition districts, the subject of the Pettaway case, and you sound like you're pretty involved in litigation relating to redistricting.
		Have you, you're an attorney, have you read the Pettaway case?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		I have not read the Pettaway case, but I am familiar-ish with it.
unidentified		Okay.
		You understand that?
		I mean, you don't dispute that it's the law currently in the state of Texas.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		I won't dispute that the Fifth Circuit has entered the decision.
		I will dispute that the Supreme Court has affirmed that decision.
		And I also want to say that I was present while the bill author talked about his interpretation of Pettaway, and I disagree with his interpretation.
		In fact, he basically said this means that we can tear apart coalition districts, and that's not what it said.
		The Pettaway decision stands for the position that you don't necessarily have to create new districts that are coalition districts, but not that the current coalition districts should not enjoy the protections under the Voting Rights Act.
		And what we're seeing here is that you are intentionally destroying coalition districts because of a misinterpretation of a Fifth Circuit court opinion that in my opinion is also going to lead because of the amount of minorities that we've talked about that have been moved around, because the Voting Rights Act itself stands for minorities having a voice and we are in a majority minority state.
		I think that just like every single time Texas has gone to court, they have lost for being intentionally racially discriminatory.
		I believe that there will be no difference this time.
		You will be found to be intentionally racially discriminatory.
		I will tell you that this administration could care less.
		This administration just doesn't want to check, especially if it means people that are loud and proud like me have the ability to do a check on this administration for their last two years.
unidentified		And that's your analysis of the opinion that you've not yet read.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		I've not read the opinion, but I've definitely read some of these that way.
unidentified		When you do read the opinion, which I would encourage you to do, if you'll look to page 17, it talks about one of the reasons that the court ruled the way that it did had to do with statutory construction.
		And it strictly construed Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and referenced the fact that Congress has been silent.
		Congress has not amended that or addressed that and addressed coalition districts under the Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act.
		So my question to you as a member of Congress, since the ruling in Pettaway a year ago, have you filed any amendment to the Voting Rights Act that would allow you and allow the Voting Rights Act to be amended to provide for coalition districts?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you something.
		As it relates to the Voting Rights Act, I have always signed on to and believe that we should pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act, which would replace the entirety of the Voting Rights Act, as well as the Freedom to Vote Act, which would actually make sure that we could get some of this money out that allowed a presidency to be bought.
		So to be clear, when we left the last time when I was serving in the state house, we left because we wanted Congress to pass those two bills then.
		And since I've been a member of Congress, I have signed on.
		So do I have a fix?
		Absolutely.
		We need to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act Advancement Act.
		And you know who doesn't want to sign on?
		People from your party.
		So I mean, I can't do nothing in the minority, but if I could wave a magic wand or if you'd like to call some of my Republican colleagues on the federal level and tell them that they should do right like historically Republicans have because it has always been bipartisan to reauthorize the Voting Rights Act.
		And we know that a Republican governor from the state of Texas, it was a Bush that reauthorized it last time.
		And when I say bipartisan, I'm not talking about one or two.
		I'm talking about passing with like 99 people.
		So listen, we are ready.
		We just need people that believe in fairness and freedom in this country to sign up and agree with us.
		And we will get this done.
		We will fix all the problems.
unidentified		And I think my question was, is after the Pettaway ruling a year ago, have you, since that time, filed any legislation to amend Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act to address the coalition district concerns that you raise?
unidentified		And I think that your answer is no.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		The answer is that I have signed on to the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act, which would resolve all of these issues.
unidentified		Thank you.
unidentified		That's enough.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Chair recognizes Representative Barbara Gurdon-Hawkins to question the panels.
unidentified		All right.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Mr. Chair.
unidentified		Congresswoman Crockett, you know, you've been in these chairs, and now you're on the other side.
unidentified		In speaking to our colleagues and trying to solicit their support to do the right thing, what would you recommend to our colleagues?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Listen, it is so frustrating to be here and regardless of differences.
		You know, in fact, going to D.C. was such an adjustment for me because when we do everything in D.C., it's left or right.
		That's how we enter rooms.
		That's how we sit.
		Everything is left or right.
		Even when we're on the floor, that's how we vote.
		But in the Texas House, your deskmate may be a Republican.
		In the Texas House, regardless of our differences, guess what?
		So long as your key was in your desk, one of your Republican colleagues may vote your desk and will vote it the right way.
		They know you were going to be the opposite of them and they would vote it the right way.
		So it was weird for everything to be so separated because even though we obviously were not in the majority when I was here, there still was this kind of Texas pride that we always walked with.
		And it was always that, listen, we are Texas, we are not DC.
		And right now, y'all are being DC'd.
		And that is wild to me because we always talked about how we were Texas and that we didn't do the DC stuff.
		And so now to get caught up in this and do harm to the constituents that trust us.
		You talk about the hearings that took place.
		There were Republicans that said at the end of the day, I may not agree with the Democrats, but I agree with fairness.
		So I am here to testify against this process because it's not fair.
		I'm just asking for the Texas legislature to do what the Texas legislature has always done, which is to be Texas and not be DC.
unidentified		Thank you.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Representative Pearson, you recognize the question of the panel.
unidentified		Thank you, Chairman.
		My question is for Congresswoman Crockett.
		Thank you so much for being here and sharing your thoughts on the map.
		I hear you.
		I understand.
		But you did mention something in your testimony that I think is worth drawing out a little bit on.
		You mentioned previously the two Anglo seats from before.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Who are currently in those seats?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		One of them is Lloyd Doggett and the other one is Wesley Hunt.
unidentified		And does that mean one is a Democrat seat and one is a Republican seat?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
unidentified		Okay.
		So the Democrat seat elected a white man.
		Yes.
		And the Republican seat elected a black man.
		Yes.
		Okay.
		And then so today you're concerned about the new Anglo seats and the assumption that you're making is that it's going to lead to more Anglo representation.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Because when we, so to be clear, because I may have not been clear, these seats are not about who gets elected.
		They're about who gets to choose who is elected.
		And so, you know, my district, while it is an African-American opportunity seat, it is an opportunity for African Americans to choose their representation.
		But they don't have to elect a black person.
		We have a similar seat in Memphis, Tennessee, that historically was always represented by the Ford family.
Who Gets to Choose? 00:15:20
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Harold Ford Sr. and Harold Ford Jr. had it, but now it is a white man that is represented representing that black seat.
		So it's not about the faces of the seats.
		It's about who gets to choose who's in the seat.
		And that doesn't mean that they're going to choose their own race.
		As you see, two Anglo-majority seats, one went for a white candidate, one went for a black candidate.
		It's not about us as candidates.
		It's about the people that get to do the choosing.
unidentified		Well, I would argue that based on the testimony that we've heard over the last week or so, it's both.
		We're hearing racism all over the place.
		We're hearing, you know, people want to choose people who look like them, which apparently has been happening.
		And I just wanted to make it clear that, you know, something that has not been said yet is that there are minority Republicans.
		I mean, there is a black and Hispanic Republican on the dais.
		And so I just don't think it's fair to just assume that the Anglo districts are going to lead to more Anglo representation.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Again, those were your words.
		So I'm just, again, I apologize if that is how it was interpreted.
		But my clarification is that when we're talking about the law and the Voting Rights Act, it's never been based upon who it is that gets elected.
		It's based upon who it is that gets to choose who is elected.
		And unfortunately, adding two more Anglo seats in a state that added, if we're going on the census that came out in 2021, there were only 180,000 new Anglos to this state.
		So the idea that we would take the bodies of black, brown, and Asian 95% of what allowed this state to garner two new seats and basically use their bodies for the benefit of making sure that a shrinking majority continue to hold on to power is wild because when we look at the numbers, this is just to clarify.
		In the last three census, in 2000, Anglos were 52.43% of the state of Texas.
		In 2010, Anglos were 45.33% of the state of Texas.
		In 2020, Anglos ended up being found to be 39.75%.
		At the same time that Anglo percentages were going down, somehow their seats and their ability to elect more representation to DC goes up at the same time that Latinos back in 2000, 31.99% of the state.
		Then it went to 37.62 in 2010 and then it went to 39.26 in 2020.
		Yet somehow they still don't have the ability to elect representatives of their choice, whoever they elect.
		It may be, you know what, we can talk about Lloyd Doggett.
		Lloyd Doggett for the longest was representing a seat that was a Latino opportunity seat.
		They chose Lloyd Doggett.
		That's fine.
		We just want people of color to be able to choose their representation so that we can comply with the Voting Rights Act as well as the 15th Amendment of the Constitution.
		That is it.
		And who they decide to elect is who they decide to elect.
		And in addition to this state being in trouble in previous court litigation, they have found that when this state legislature has said, oh, well, we'll add these minorities over here.
		Well, again, when you start shifting people around, they found historically, I want to say it was the 20 around the 2010 redistricting, that what Texas did is they decided to add basically low propensity Latinos in one of the districts.
		So that again, that district would not be Latinos being able to elect their representation because they took people that they knew had a low propensity to show up.
unidentified		And so on that note, with these new lines, political performance was taken in consideration.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		That is what we've heard from the bill author yesterday.
unidentified		And in previous hearings, I mentioned specifically that in the state of Texas, President Trump did win a majority of the Hispanic voters in the state.
		And just to broaden that even further, I mean, those are the numbers.
		President Trump did win the majority of the Hispanic votes in the state.
		In fact, he flipped, I believe it was 10 counties in the state.
		So don't you think that is reflective of this map, this proposed map, that the minorities who are here with the new majority minority districts that have been created, it is reflective?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		No, Representative, I don't.
		Again, it's just based upon, I mean, this is just pure math.
		Like, I'm not trying to pick who is going to vote for who, because as it was stated earlier, the idea that anybody is a monolith is wild anyway, right?
		Because first of all, Latinos down at the border, they are not the same as Latinos, say, in the DFW or in Harris County.
		Like, so I don't want to pretend as if any minority group is a monolith, which is one of the reasons that we talk about communities of common interest because we work together and we function together and we do things a little differently.
		I mean, I'm sure there are even black folk in Houston that will argue that they're not the same as Dallas black people, right?
		So it's an ongoing thing, but nevertheless, but nevertheless, what I will say is that that is why you shouldn't just be grabbing up people from wherever and saying, oh, well, they all the same race.
		It is bigger than that.
		It is trying to make sure, and you brought up compactness earlier.
		And so compactness is one of those things that you consider as well, because again, it is different.
		When you look at a state the size of Texas, you know how many states you can fit in our state, right?
		So thinking about it in that way, a reflective map would look like the fact that only 39% of this state is Anglo.
		So how in the heck do we have 60% of the seats that go to DC are going to be decided by Anglos?
		That's the math that doesn't work.
		We need to flip the numbers so that people of color, no matter who they vote for, if they decide they're voting for Trump, and you're right.
		Because of the 13 Democratically elected seats in the state of Texas, one of those seats was a majority white seat.
		That's it.
		Everybody else, it was people of color that sent us to D.C.
		But when we look at the Republicans of the 25 seats, 23 of those seats are Anglo-majority seats.
		Two of those seats, Latinos are the ones that chose.
		And I don't have a beef with that.
		Like, that's who they elected, and that is perfectly fine.
		So they have two Anglo seats that are Republican.
		I'm sorry, two Latino opportunity seats that elected Republicans.
		That is perfectly fine.
		People vote for who they vote for, but don't divide our communities and dilute our voices.
		And that's why we're here, because we feel like we're being diluted because we're packing black folk.
		I mean, the bill author mentioned that there's some district that went up to over 70-something percent Latino.
		That is packing.
		You don't need almost 80% Latinos for that district to perform as a Latino opportunity seat.
unidentified		And so you don't agree with the new majority, major minority Hispanic seats?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		I don't agree with this map.
		Okay, thank you.
		Thanks.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Manuel, recognize the question of the panel.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Soon as we get the microphone going.
unidentified		I don't know if it's okay.
		I'm going to try to be really quick because I don't want to belabor the point.
		I have a question really for all of you.
		Congressman, Congressman, Congresswoman Garcia.
		Congresswoman Crockett brought us something very interesting.
		And she was saying, you know, we are different.
		Southeast Texas is different from West Texas, East Texas.
		One thing that we know historically has always done is to pit minorities against each other and make them to fight over scraps.
		Can you explain how what is happening with these congressional districts in Harris County are forcing communities of interest to fight one another?
		And any example that you can tell me of how that has been historically used against our communities in a racist context to dilute the vote or to stop people voting, whatever that is?
sylvia garcia ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly there was an attempt to dilute the vote.
		I mean, when you hear the numbers again that my Hispanic citizen voting age population went from 63.5 to 43, if 20% down isn't dilution, then what is dilution?
		And to argue that now there's one, the new nine, which diluted Congressman Green's district, went from 25.3 to 50.41.
		I mean, that's just a little bitty, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, as Gilda Radner used to say on Sarah Night Live.
		That's an itty, itty, bitty, bitty bump above 50%.
		So frankly, give me a break.
		You diluted it, whatever you did, because you diluted the vote, split it up, and then you raised the African-American.
		So yes, that kind of, by default, might put us in opposition.
		But it depends on who the candidate is.
		You know, I've been blessed that I've run citywide.
		I've had support from the African American community, Asian community.
		You don't win in Houston citywide without that population.
		So I think it's unfortunate because they're using race to divide us.
		And for anyone to argue that this isn't about race, the letter itself picked on four minority districts.
		Is that just a coincidence?
		No.
		And then they went in and divided them the way they did.
		So I think it's just, as I said earlier, it's shameful.
		And I will hope that you all don't support the map and that we can, or that we can change it in some way.
		Because it's never good when we put communities of interest against each other.
		Communities of interest should be about bringing people together, not dividing them.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Congressman Cesar, I know that you had also brought this up, and I am still beyond perplexed.
		And this is nothing against anybody in the city.
		This is nothing against anybody in Austin.
		But can you, for the love of God, explain to me what Travis County has in common with San Jacinto County, Polk County, Trinity, or Houston County?
		Because I'm going to tell you, I've never seen anything Austin-like in any of those counties.
		And I go there to just eat dinner, and I'm back home, and I still got people like, we almost to Houston.
		From Austin.
		So can you explain that?
		Because I don't understand how we're trying to make this map better.
		But we're Austin is obviously a target.
		Can you explain how these counties have anything in common with this part of Travis?
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		I mean, anybody who's not a politician should just look at these maps and thinks it's a joke.
		And to your point, it's clear to me that these maps aren't drawn by anybody from Texas.
		It is you all on the diocese's job to draw Texas's maps.
		It's clear that somebody in Mar-a-Lago drew these maps.
		The southern suburbs of Austin in Hayes County that I currently proudly represent, they have drawn out to Port Aranzas.
		There's northern parts of Austin drawn to northeast Texas, western parts of Austin drawn out to Midland Odessa.
		The only reason you do that is because you currently have a president that accepted a $400 million gift from the Qatari government, the biggest bribe in presidential history.
		It just got put out that he's spending $200 million in taxpayer dollars for an addition to the White House so he can go hang out there and have his golden toilet there too, I guess.
		The only reason that you would have a map that looks this absurd is because you have an extremely unpopular president that knows nothing about Texas who's sending a map here.
		And at the end of the day, what it does very clearly is what the Voting Rights Act banned in 1965.
		It specifically moves 10 million Texans, two-thirds of whom are people of color, and tries to use them as the president's tool, when ultimately Texans of all races should be the ones picking their members of Congress.
		It's just that simple.
		You look at it, and it makes no sense to anybody in politics, and that's when you know that you can smell the rat.
		And so, look, at the end of the day, this is not about any of us as members of Congress.
		No politician owns these districts.
		No member of Congress owns these districts.
		No president can put their name and flashy light to the top of these districts.
		These seats are owned by the people of Texas.
		And if the people of Texas saw these maps, they would hang their heads in shame.
unidentified		Thank you so much.
		And lastly, Congresswoman Crockett, the one thing that I find just so asiniting to me, and I hope that you can maybe help enlighten at least maybe me, why people think taking economic engines from black people are Hispanic people and saying, well, at least we put you together, that that has done something historically to help us.
		Because unless I am reading all the wrong history books and I'm just completely dunce, that's called redlining.
		And that has historically been used to disenfranchise our communities.
		It's been historically used to stop us as we're in the process of taking care of ourselves.
		And it's been something historically used to, once that community starts to become dumbed down for people, and I brought this up last time to say that we're lazy, we're ghetto, why can't they just do this?
		Why can't they behave this way when you take every economic engine away from them?
		So maybe you can explain to me how and how is that going to affect that part of Texas that has historically dealt with some severe forms of racism that people whose families never lived through racism will never be able to tell you the experience of how bad it was for them, not what they saw on, you know, the Lifetime movie that said, oh, it's okay, we still love you, and my family wasn't racist like that.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no.
Hiring Local Talent 00:03:16
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
		One of the things I failed to mention is that this map is so terrible that the new, the two new black seats that they telling us that they gave us, because they're like, be happy we gave you some scraps, because that's kind of how it sounded when they said it to me.
		The 18th and the 30th lost their airports.
		The 18th had IAH and the 30th had Dallas Love Field.
		And not only did it have Dallas Love Field, Southwest Airlines is based at Dallas Love, which is right there, right?
		As well as JSX Airlines is based in my district right there at Dallas Love.
		As well as we also have two plane manufacturers and we have one that does some finishing work.
		It's not the headquarters, but a lot of private JITs, Gulfstream, is based right there at Dallas Love Field.
		Now let me tell you what a good representative does.
		I can't speak for anybody else, but one of the major parts of having these economic engines and they are then tied to my district is I make them not be able to ignore my district.
		So, when I'm talking about like what are you going to do when you're hiring, and does that hiring look representative of our district?
		I promise you, when I walk in, they know who I am and they know about CD 30.
		And so, then they give me all the numbers and they ask, well, what can we do to do better?
		So, for instance, when we had the FAA reauthorization, while I did not serve on the Transportation Committee, I was able to take information that I got from some companies, I won't name specific ones, that were lacking in diversity because they had a diverse member and they were a part of this district.
		And so, I said, I want to help you.
		I don't want to hurt you.
		And so, we were able to talk and get legislation into FAA reauthorization that would increase the diversity numbers when it came down to pilots, that would increase people's abilities to actually ascertain what is normally a $30,000 pilot's license, which then limits so many people of color from being able to enter the field.
		I am able to talk to them and tell them the things that they can do to make sure that they're hiring locally and locally looks like within our district.
		When you have a break like that, this means that the economic opportunities for my constituents may go away because now they are not tied to my constituency, a constituency that unfortunately has 20% of my district live at or below poverty.
		To then take my economic engines away, what was fair for the state of Texas was, let's say there was an overrepresentation of black folk, right?
Hispanic Opportunity Districts At Risk 00:05:49
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Like black people were picking too many districts, and so they had to get rid of one of them, and it ended up being mine.
		I would say that's fairness, like that's that's just what it is, right?
		But unfortunately, this map is not reflective of our state, and that's the only thing that I wanted to do is be reflective of our state and make sure that you are keeping communities of common interest together and you're not depriving those districts that are already struggling of their economic engines, which has been done to both the 30th as well as the 18th.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		And if I may mention someone as it relates to Latino districts representative, because it's been brought up quite a bit, I currently represent a district that is a Latino opportunity district, upheld by the Supreme Court and its conservative justices in the last decade.
		And what I hope that this panel looks at closely is some of these districts that are supposedly new Hispanic opportunity districts.
		That since you'll be reviewing a map made in the White House and not here in Texas, that you check to make sure that they did not intentionally make sure that it was neighborhoods of Latinos that they saw that in the last few elections voted at a lower rate so that it could ultimately be, in fact, not a Latino opportunity district, but a sham opportunity district.
		So, the numbers show that under this proposed map, there are more Anglo-opportunity districts.
		And the so-called new Latino opportunity districts, I would look at that very carefully.
		And I believe judges and lawyers and history may look at those quite unkindly, especially if you dismantle the actual Latino opportunity districts that Congresswoman Garcia and myself currently represent.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		I see.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Tipper, do you have questions for the panel?
unidentified		Yes.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		So recognized.
unidentified		Thank you, Chairman.
		Congressman Sayser, this has been racially focused of late and even charged.
		I think you made some comments about Hispanic districts being broken up, etc.
		One of the issues I'm seeing as we go through this process is that Hispanics, and I mean, according to most of the exit polls we see, voted for President Trump about 55% of the vote.
		Does that change your testimony about dividing that population?
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		I'm not, Hispanic voters should, of course, be able to vote for whomever they want.
		What this map does is it tells those Hispanic voters that President Trump is going to change the lines and change who your member of Congress is.
		What this map does is it breaks up many of those Hispanic voters, cracks them into multiple districts, draws their districts across the state.
		And that's wrong.
		I believe that those Latinos and white voters and black voters should be able to call their member of Congress about issues in their community.
		But a Latino voter that lives in the South Austin suburbs should not, for political purposes, in order to defend a corrupt president, all of a sudden have their district drawn out to Port Aranzas.
		That just makes no sense.
		That has nothing to do with who they voted for for president.
		They can vote for whoever they want for president, but they shouldn't have the current president screwing up their lives, changing the rules of their election because he's scared he's going to lose an election.
		If he's scared he's going to lose an election, then he should do popular things and win their votes.
unidentified		But Hispanics make up, I think it's 30-something percent of the population of Texas already.
		It would be impossible to draw a district that wasn't splitting Hispanic votes in some way, isn't that?
		Because it'd be impossible to draw one that isn't splitting up white votes in some way.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		I think a five-year-old could draw a more coherent map than what they sent you from Mar-a-Lago.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		It is very difficult to draw a map as convoluted as this one.
unidentified		But this one is much more, it looks much more like the octagons we were talking to about earlier, the hexagons.
unidentified		It seems to be much more cohesive, the districts, than they were previously.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		No.
		I believe the current map against each other.
		I'll be clear.
		I believe the current map is illegal and gerrymandered and absurd.
		And I believe strongly that Texas should have an independent commission, and I think that that could prevent, doing that could prevent other states from going down this path.
unidentified		Isn't that naive, independent commission?
unidentified		I mean, they're all appointed by someone that's got some kind of bias.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		Actually, here in the city of Austin, Texas, the government does not choose who sits on that independent commission.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		And I think that is really the citizens get to submit their names, and then the independent city auditor that is independent of the city of Austin actually has those citizens in place.
unidentified		Okay, Chaplain Stoglin, retired Marine, sir.
unidentified		Along that same thread, black men are reported to have voted for the great President Trump 20% of the time, which is a huge increase from previous years of any other Republican versus Democrat presidential election.
Voting Trends Changing 00:02:55
unidentified		Do you see that trend continuing, or is that just a blip of some sort?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, that's absolutely continuing.
		I think it seems to me that people think people of color can't read or people can't think that they have to be in a certain geographical location for them to vote.
		Or else, if they move out of that vote or if their district moves, gosh, they can't think, they can't read, they can't go to college.
		I was in Afghanistan for 330 days, boots on the ground.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I was the number two on the enemy snipers list.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I reported directly to the state.
unidentified		I think in here, you're number one, but go ahead.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I reported directly to the number two guy in charge of the entire war.
		I was the command chaplain of 39 nations of the world.
		And I had to, I rated a full-time security team.
		My gear weighed 80 pounds.
		And because of all that intensive training, I'm a disabled vet.
		And my security team weighed 140 pounds per person.
		I was not allowed to ride an elevator for a year.
		I had to climb up six flights of steps in Afghanistan.
		It's 140 degrees now there.
		And going in the building.
		And I was the command chaplain.
		And you know what's interesting is I also was a senior military advisor to a senior general of the Afghan National Army who controlled the brain trust of the Afghan National Army.
		And nobody said, you moved to, you were located in Afghanistan.
		Well, I guess I'm deluded.
		I guess I can't have the brain power.
		I guess I didn't.
		But the general who had a PhD that I worked for, a three-star general, he never said, you're the black chaplain.
		He said, you're the command chaplain of 39 nations of the world.
		And by the way, I've knocked on 151 doors, and it was never good news.
		And they were all kinds of people.
		And there were some people who there was some, one of your colleagues who mentioned about UTA this Monday, but he never mentioned the fact that UTA is the most friendly military university in the country.
unidentified		But Maureen, to circle back, do you see the trend, the voting trends changing?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I see the voting trends changing, Representative for Donald Trump and the Republican Party, because the Republican Party was created by 150 colored men, as I said, and 20 white men.
		And the fact of the matter is that when you consider our history, the 13th, 14th, 15th, and the 19th Amendments were voted on by Republicans.
		The U.S. Department of Justice was created by Ulysses S. Grant administration.
		So when you look at this as a whole, we are now as a people, black people, brown people, and people talk about Hispanics, and you talk about Spanish, you talk about the Cubanos, the Dominicans, the Mecanos.
Specifically On Black Males 00:06:33
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about the Castilian Spanish.
		So the Filipino Spanish.
		So when you look at all of this, that's what you're looking at.
		And I see the trend particularly as black males increasing Republicans because when you look at what happened in the great society of the 1960s, that they thought they were doing black people a favor when Monaghan said, you cannot do this.
		You will make the black community or the Negro community, they will call then, a matriarchal system.
		You had 80% of black males who were fathers in the home.
		Today you have 80% who are fatherless.
		Who's suffering now?
		Look at these districts, and black males are looking at these districts that are horrible.
		Schools, gangs, and you talk about women being, daughters being snatched off the streets.
		What about these smugglers and these coyotes and all these people that are taking these daughters off the street?
		So, and nobody cares.
		And human smuggling is a huge issue.
		Black males as a whole is looking at this and all of these issues because of these issues and problems that are here today.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Any other member of the committee have a question?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Representative Hickle, you recognize the question of the panel.
unidentified		Chair.
		Thank you, Chair.
		Quickly, because I know we want to honor the great citizens, great Texans that have come here today.
		But Representative Kassar, I didn't want to pass up on the benefit that we have of you being here and we're discussing your district.
		And the reason that I wanted to talk to you was related to your comments about District 27 and the shape and the gerrymandering.
		But your current district is like a gerrymander's delight.
		Would you agree?
		The shape in the shape.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		I think that the shapes of virtually all of the districts currently in Texas do not make good sense.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		And that's why I mentioned to Mr. Tepper that, frankly, whether you're progressive or conservative or libertarian, I actually find that I agree with the vast majority of Texans that we need to get politicians out of the map drawing process and have independent citizens do it because if this is what we're calling octagons and hexagons, I think for the average voter, they say that these do not look like octagons and hexagons.
unidentified		Well, I'll just speak to the way that the proposed map, specifically with your district, where currently there's an area that Representative Pearson mentioned is half a mile wide.
		It's just, it dips down like it's got a tail.
		And now when we're looking at it, we see the lines drawn along county lines.
		Like counties are made whole in that district with the exception of Bayer County.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		And with the very significant exception of your county intentionally.
unidentified		Well, it looks visually.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		Visually, but I actually know those streets.
		And what they are intentionally doing, and I'll let you know in case they haven't shot the email, they're intentionally taking those Latino voters in southern Bayer County, drawing them in with places like Karn City, specifically in a way that dilutes their vote, which is again what the Voting Rights Act was drafted to prevent.
		So at the end of the day, throughout our history, people have come up with every excuse they can on the surface to mask what's ultimately being done, which is to sound nice, to sound like you're doing something for the right reason, but at the end of the day, move Latino voters and move black voters.
unidentified		I want to specifically talk about your district.
		We heard a lot of testimony, specifically about your district, and how San Antonio was connected all the way up to Austin.
		And so that is fixed here in the compactness, specifically of that district.
		And so I'm just talking compactness along the county lines and visually because of what we've been talking about here.
		But there's one more thing, last thing.
		You mentioned that the president is wildly unpopular.
		And I just, I reject that.
		I disagree with that.
		The election supports that.
		That focusing on a person, and I'm sure we'll hear lots of testimony that focuses on Trump, is somewhat of a distraction because we're talking about policies.
		Voters came out specifically on the border in the valley.
		We can see that they voted for secure borders.
		Texans that you and I both represent, they want secure elections.
		They want their kids to have a good education.
		They're not afraid to let a coach prey on the football field.
		And that's what we're looking at is that political performance.
		And obviously, I support this map.
		And I'm hopeful that that's what we're going to get to.
		Thank you.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I believe the president ran on lowering prices and our prices continue to go up.
		He ran on lowering people's taxes, but in fact, he is giving the biggest tax break in American history and the biggest transfer of wealth in American history from working class people to the rich.
		I'll leave it to you all whether you want to draw a map around a president's order.
		But at the end of the day, I believe that merging East Austin with West Austin into one district and then trying to say that you're creating a Latino opportunity district by merging Kearns County with Southern Bear County, I just don't think anybody here's children or grandchildren are going to be proud of that.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Chair?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Hold on.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Representative Wilson, you're recognized to question the pen.
unidentified		My question is to Chaplain.
unidentified		You had something you wanted to say.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		I was going to say that in 2010, I had the assignment to be the task force chaplain.
		They call it MACTAP TAC 24, and I'll break that down.
		That's Marine Airground Task Force, 24th Infantry out of Kansas City, Missouri.
		We were there to train 26 Central American nations on anti-narco-terrorism, including Mexico, so they wouldn't have these people snatched off the streets.
Thank You for Your Service 00:15:50
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		And, sir, it's now declassed, declassified.
		Hamas was there.
		And so we didn't know, we couldn't, we had to identify that.
		And so we were there to do anti-terrorism because we knew that the border was going to be threatened.
		And that, sir, was in 2010.
		And so to Representative Hicklin' question and all of that, that's what was growing because we don't know who's in this country.
		And the president is saying, we've got to get these people because you don't know.
		And I tell you, if people saw what, and I hope they don't, what I saw in Afghanistan when children and bodies were blown apart.
		And then the Moolah said, we had a gentleman, sir, who his wife needed to go to the hospital.
		He borrowed 2,000 American equivalent dollars.
		He was unable to pay it back.
		So it was brought before the Moolah, the religious leader.
		And they had a seven-year-old daughter.
		So the Moolah said, did you borrow the money?
		Yes, Moolah.
		Can you pay the dollars back?
		No, Moolah.
		Then your seven-year-old daughter is going to that family and she will belong to a 17-year-old male.
		And so people would say, well, why didn't America involve?
		Why didn't America get involved?
		Because it's their country.
		And so if you think it doesn't happen, it does.
		And so my point of it is, is that that's what the president is trying to get this country to understand.
		You don't, you can't measure your great American, comparatively speaking, lifestyle compared to what these people will do, have done, and will do.
		And I'm a witness to that.
		And so we had to have somebody, I had to have 10 JAGs, military lawyers, to look into it.
		And an anonymous American paid the $2,000 so this seven-year-old girl would not go to this family and by the way, she would not see her family for 10 years.
		That's what happens in places like Afghanistan.
		And I had three interpreters whose names I will not call.
		They were classified, who worked for me and spoke good English.
		This is what the president is trying to convey to this country.
		And by these maps, whether you agree or disagree, I think Mr. Hunt said it in his very good presentation, in my opinion, this is what's happening.
		Americans still can read and write.
		They can choose if they want to vote for black people, white people, brown people.
		But at the end of the day, when I was in Afghanistan and I wore a uniform two and eight years in two days, we didn't have, and my security team, by the way, since people are so color struck, didn't look like me.
		And they took their jobs very seriously.
		The first day I was in Afghanistan, a sergeant first class talked to me and he said, Sir, are you Commander Stoglin?
		I am.
		Sir, walk to me.
		I did.
		Sir, this is your security team.
		We are willing to give your lives for you.
		We're willing to give our lives for you.
		They didn't know me.
		We wasn't in the same neighborhood.
		We had to move.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Let's come back.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Let's come back to the bill.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		So, anyway, I'm sorry.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		But anyway, I can listen to you all day.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Members, when you question Quentin and Witness, make sure that you tie it back, please.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Don't leave that on the chair to do.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Representative Gerd Hawkins, you recognize the question of the panel.
unidentified		I like to question the child, but in the interest of time, we've got so many people waiting.
		This is a yes or no answer.
		Did you talk to the president?
		He told you about the moolah and what he wanted to do.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I work for five presidents.
unidentified		But did this one tell you?
unidentified		No, he didn't tell me what to do.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I haven't talked to the president.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I didn't talk to you, ma'am.
unidentified		The other question I ask is: starving people in other countries, did the president tell you that that's what he's going to stop the starving that he's doing across America?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's bring it back just to the map, everybody.
		And I just want to be an admonishment to all of the map.
		All questions and witnesses that the question before this body is whether or not to take action on HB4.
		Now, anything related to that, of course, we're allowed.
		But let's just try to tie it in a little bit tighter here.
		I think we had Representative Garcia, you recognize the question, members of the panel.
unidentified		Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
unidentified		Commander Donnon?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Commander, I was a commander.
unidentified		So nice to meet you, sir.
		Thank you for your time and thank you for your service.
		Do you know how many members of the Texas House of Representatives have ever served in the military of 150?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		151.
unidentified		No, of 150 members that are on the House.
unidentified		Do you know how many?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I do not, sir.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		How many?
unidentified		Less than a dozen.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That's 1% of us total, anyway, in the country.
unidentified		Right.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		1%, and you know this.
unidentified		Yes, sir, absolutely.
unidentified		I am the first and only woman veteran to ever serve in this body.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		May I ask?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Branch?
unidentified		Air Force.
		Yes, sir.
		So the point of the matter is that when we're talking about redistricting and talking about state politics and of that sort, I understand that you and I and even Colonel Wilson here have a different view of racism, racial issues because we did grow up in and came up in our Holodart lives, adult lives, every day.
		Anteper as well also served.
		But what we did is we were under a culture of rules, sir.
		That's correct.
		Where we were not permitted to disparage one another, or there is something called the UCMJ, which we know that will be utilized, right?
		So with that being said, sir, when we're talking about the politics of redistricting and doing these maps in fairness, unfortunately, this process does not have the same care that we were given when it comes to being colorblind and getting the mission accomplished.
		And I think that's where we can kind of all agree here that this is a process that, like our service in the military, is mission focused and should be colorblind.
		However, what we are hearing, and again, not just from us here, but from the thousands of constituents that have come to give their testimony, and you even as well.
		We want that fairness.
		We don't want there to be a racial aspect to dividing us.
		However, that's what we are experiencing with this particular process.
		So I just wanted to recognize that and just kind of, you know, talk to that because I know there's a lot of civilians in the room that may not understand where we're coming from having those conversations and saying that we don't operate by color.
		But I think that's where kind of the disconnect is.
		And unfortunately, we need more veterans who serve in the process in government so that we're better to understand mission first.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		But they may not understand UCMJ, United States Code of Military Justice, what you're referencing.
		And thank you for your service.
		And Representative Garcia, you know, we also took an oath against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
unidentified		Yes.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		And we are to protect all the people.
		Right?
		And that is our oath.
		Correct, Colonel?
		That is our oath.
		And we are Americans.
		We can disagree, and the chairman has been very lenient in the committee.
		But the fact of the matter is, our uniforms mean something.
		And thank you for your services, whoever you are.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly the chair grease, and we're going to, I appreciate everybody keeping it very civil.
		I know we're passionate about any particular bill that may come forward, and I appreciate everybody keeping it civil.
		So I think Representative Turner, did you have another question?
		Chair recognized Representative Turner to question the witnesses.
unidentified		Mr. Chairman, just a quick follow-up question for Congressman Kassar.
		Representative Hicklin asked you about the shape of your current district versus the shape of some of the districts in this new proposal that we've got before us today.
		But more importantly than the shape of your current district, correct me if I'm wrong, but your current district is a Voting Rights Act protected Hispanic opportunity district, is it not?
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		My understanding is that's the opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court as it currently stands.
unidentified		And it's gone through a couple different iterations over the course of the last redistricting, but fundamentally that district was created because the courts found that it was a violation of the law to basically subsume heavily Latino areas in South Bear County into a district that was functionally controlled by Anglo voters.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		My initial look at this map, as Representative Hickland said, was while there are some counties that are fully contained in what is labeled 35 under this map, very conspicuously, Southern Bear County suddenly gets carved in.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		And I believe that courts and lawyers and people on this dais should take the time to see if that is intentionally done.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		And so just to be clear for the record, the current district you represent, Congressional District 35, is currently configured is a Hispanic opportunity district.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		That is my understanding, sir.
unidentified		And you are the candidate of choice of the voters in those districts.
unidentified		You've been elected now two times.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		Thus far, they've elected me, but they can choose whoever.
unidentified		We take it one election at a time.
unidentified		Absolutely.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		Just like that.
unidentified		In the last two elections, certainly you have been that candidate.
		But the way Congressional District 35 is reconfigured in this proposal in House Bill 4, it may very well be that those Hispanic voters, particularly in Bear County, the ones in Travis County aren't even in it.
		The ones in Bear County may not maintain that ability to elect the candidate of their choice.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		The map, of course, was only recently, was only recently posted.
		But from my initial look, it seems that the Latino voters and communities of color and the book, Murphy, of current 35, gets merged in to create a new Congressional District 37.
		That district is majority people of color now, but we very well may find that voters of color do not have block voting power in that district.
		And then what is now labeled Congressional District 35 that has virtually no overlap with the current 35 seems to me to be something very suspicious given that it pulls in Southern Bear County into places like Carnes County.
unidentified		And basically your current district is cracked in this proposal.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, and that's without mentioning the Hayes County, without mentioning Hayes County now being run out to Port Aranzas and then other parts being run out west.
unidentified		All right, so it's cracked at least three ways.
greg casar ▲ ● ▼		At least.
unidentified		Thank you.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Any other member of the committee have a question for this panel?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Representative Pearson, you recognize the question of the panel.
unidentified		Thank you, Chairman.
		I'll be brief.
		I would be remiss, Chaplin, if I didn't thank you for being here, coming all the way from North Texas.
		And thank you again for your service.
		And I just wanted to put a little bow on your testimony when asked by my colleagues if you saw the trend of black voters moving Republican.
		And I just wanted to say I'm honored to be on the front end of that trend, helping President Trump get elected from the beginning and leading his coalitions.
		And I just wanted you to know that out of all of the coalitions that I ran for President Trump, the black coalition was the largest by hundreds of thousands.
		So thank you for being here.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome.
		And madam and Mr. Chair, some of you may have not seen this.
		And the representatives, you know what this is.
		For those who don't, I was presented this stole in front of 39 nations.
		This is the stole that I was awarded in Afghanistan.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for your service.
		You're welcome.
		Members, any other questions for the panel?
		Okay, we're going to go to non-members.
		Sir, Representative Jones, you recognize the question of the panel.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Mr. Chair.
		This question.
		Mr. Congresswoman Crockett.
		Aren't these gerrymandered maps a modern method of methodically mutilating minority voting power exactly what the 15th Amendment was meant to make illegal?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		And I don't know where we're getting lost in this conversation because there's been a lot of talk about black people or Latino people voting for Trump.
		People vote for whoever they want to vote for.
		Like, I don't, that's not what this ever was about when it came about the Voting Rights Act nor the Constitution.
		To be clear, when we talk about Latinos, specifically down at the border, when we talk about those Latinos, we have three congressional seats basically that sit down there.
		One is held by a Latina Republican.
		Two are held by Latino men that are Democrats.
		And guess what?
		Their districts voted for them as Democrats and then also voted for Trump.
		So they decided to pack even more Latinos in there hoping that maybe they can kick them out, but also to minimize their voices.
		And just to be clear about what we're talking about about minimizing, we were always trying to make sure, and it seems like even today, as black people specifically, we just want to be whole people as it relates to this federal government.
		I'm sure you know about the three-fifths compromise.
		But let me tell you about our voting strength in this map.
		In this map, African Americans basically have one-fifth of the power of an Anglo voter because we have 4 million black people in this state of 30 million people, right?
		They said y'all get two opportunity seats.
		So black people have one representative for 2 million and another representative for another 2 million, all right?
		But when we talk about Anglos in this state, there's only 12 million Anglos in this state.
		Yet somehow they have so much more voting power.
		And when it comes to the Latinos, and I'll pass it along, the Latino vote is only one-third, has only one-third of the power of an Anglo, and black people have one-fifth of the power of an Anglo.
		What we are trying to say is we want equity.
		I know that's a bad word nowadays, but we are all human.
		And last time I checked, only citizens are allowed to vote in these elections.
		So every citizen should have equal access to choose their representation instead of crowding black people to the point that all the black people in the state only have two representatives and all the Latinos in the state are crowded up to the extent that their voting power is diminished.
		That is why the vast majority of the people that have signed up to testify as it relates to this bill are testifying against it.
		Now, they're not going to care because I've been here before, but we literally have 400-something people that are trying to testify against them.
Ussc Or Fifth Circuit? 00:02:52
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		And the reason that their voices are being ignored is because even in our state maps, whether they're the state house or the state senate, our voices are not where they are supposed to be.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		If they were, our representatives would listen to us and we would get legislation that was reflective of the will of the people in the state.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		U.S. Supreme Court or the Fifth Circuit?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		They have never struck them down.
		There's no, and they can't cite a court case that struck them down.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		And along those same lines, regarding the legal precedent, Pettaway v. Galvison County, which we keep hearing about, the Fifth Circuit ruled that a black and Latino coalition district wasn't protected under Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, but the United States Supreme Court did not affirm that decision.
		They simply denied CERT in June of 2024.
		So isn't it true that a denial of cert is not an endorsement of the Fifth Circuit's reasoning?
		They just refused to review the case, since we're both lawyers.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		That's all that it means.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		I want to make sure of that as well.
		Also, Congresswoman Crockett, you heard Chair Vasude admit on the record at the beginning when he was explaining the process that he's not informed about this 350-page bill, that he hasn't had time to fully read or understand it.
		So if even the chair isn't informed, how can everyday Texans with no legal training nor staff and only 400 and only 48 hours to respond be expected to give meaningful and informed testimony on something as complicated as this in this hearing today?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		That's a million dollar question, but I assure you that this seems like it is part of the design and not a defect.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		And my final question to you, Congresswoman.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		You attended the University of Houston Law Center, correct?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we're both.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		We both go coups.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		So you're familiar with Congressional District 18.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		I am.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		You served alongside both Congresswoman Jackson Lee and former Congressman Sylvester Turner.
unidentified		Yes.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		Who happens to be from Acres Homes?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		Given that history, can you speak to the significance of stripping CD-18 of Acres Homes and Independence Heights, which, by the way, are both historic in CD-18 and Intercontinental Airport and moving them into CD-29.
Real Legislation Considered 00:15:44
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		What message does this send to the 18th Congressional District?
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is so unfortunate.
		The 18th has such a legacy, going all the way back to the incomparable Barbara Jordan, who also served on the state level as a state senator.
		And as we know, Barbara Jordan actually ran for the state house multiple times and was unable to be elected.
		And it was not until that faithful election after we had opportunity seats created.
		In the state of Texas, that in the state house, my late great predecessor, Eddie Bernice Johnson, was able to be sworn in in 1972.
		That is also when the dean, who sits up here, the first two black women that were ever elected to the state house at the same time Barbara Jordan was able to win and serve in the state senate because there had been a change in the law and there was a recognition of the fact that minority voices have been diluted.
		Now just think about the fact that the dean, one of the first black women, the first two black women to ever swear into this body is still serving today and serving honorably over 50 years later.
		But unfortunately, 50 years later, things don't seem to be looking up or looking better.
		They are trying to make sure that there are less Miss T's coming along than more.
		That is why we are here, because we know that there would not be a Miss T or Eddie Bernice Johnson but for laws that made them do what was right, which means that certain communities had an opportunity to elect their representation.
		I don't know why we are pretending.
		I honestly would rather people just tell us what it is.
		We don't care about black and brown.
		Just say it.
		Like, let's just be real about it.
		Because that's what they're going to do when you say, black folk, you have 4 million of y'all here, but you only get two seats amongst the 4 million.
		While 12 million Anglos end up with all these seats, 20-something seats.
		So, you know, taking an economic engine out like IAH, one of the largest airports, not only in this state, but one of the larger ones in this country, that deprives this community that these, a lot of these historic communities need a little bit of economic kind of tie-in to help them thrive.
		When you start to talk about Akers Homes, listen, Acres Homes, and when you talk about the late, great Sylvester Turner, when I tell you he was so proud to be from Acres Homes that he never left, he made sure he was always going to stay there because he never wanted the people to believe that Acres Home ever left him.
		He could be the mayor of the city of Houston or be the congressman from Houston.
		But at the end of the day, he was born and bred in Akers Home and he wanted those children to recognize that it's not where you come from that will determine where you are going.
		And so he stayed there, but this is a historic black community.
		So again, they took one of my Freedmen's Towns away.
		There are certain things that I had to fight for that Freedman's Town to even have their designation.
		And I had to fight for certain things from coming in there.
		When you throw them into another district that does not know their struggle or does not care about their struggle, then they won't have a representative, no matter who that representative looks like, that will protect their interests.
		That is what common interest looks like.
		And so taking those things out of the 18th, in my opinion, is downright evil.
		And it is wrong.
		And we will see what the courts ultimately have to say about it because I don't think that we will engage in real legislation in this body.
		Real legislation looks like real debate where parties listen.
		Real legislation looks like actually taking up amendments.
		Real legislation looks like taking into account what these members who have traveled all over from all over the state have to say and hearing them and taking that into account and making sure that the legislation doesn't come from some random person whose name we cannot name right now, but a random law firm who none of us hired.
		And then saying that this is what y'all gonna get instead of listening to the very people that put everybody that's sitting here into these seats.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		And along those lines, this is why I say people, let's just say the Republicans on the ones who've spoken are scrounging their faces up or chagrin because we keep using the word racism, right?
		First of all, where I come from in the 18th congressional district, you call a spade a spade, right?
		And everybody keeps saying, why are you talking about racism?
		And why are you pulling a race card for the most part, which is what they try to do to get us back off of speaking truth to power and telling the truth?
		I'm going to pull a race card from the bottom of the deck, the middle of the deck, the top of the deck, as long as they keep doing racist stuff.
unidentified		Right?
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		So if you don't want me to call a race card, when you're being racist, then stop being racist.
		And all I'm going to say is this.
		The way that they have cracked and packed our districts, and again, when you talk to Congressman Kassar, when you talk to Congresswoman Garcia, when we talk to you, when we listen to Congressman VC, and we listen to Congressman Al Green,
		in the urban districts, which is where most black and brown people are, by concentration, that is where they literally took away or designed three seats taken that are voted by either black people or brown people.
		And they figured out a way to surgically, like precisely crack us and pack us so that white folks would get more seats.
		And you can sit up here and you can tell me that's not true.
		And we were just trying to get five Republican districts.
		That's like telling me it's raining when you peeing on me.
		We just not that stupid.
		But thank you for your testimony.
		I appreciate you for coming.
jasmine crockett ▲ ● ▼		No, and I think the last part of what you said is so important because we continue to hear how well Trump was performing with blacks and Latinos.
		Then why is it that we're getting less black and Latino seats?
		Give them to us.
		Because we have the population.
		Give us the seats.
		If they vote for Trump, then God bless them.
		I mean, that's all I can say.
		God bless them who they vote for.
		But they get to vote for who they want to vote for.
		So give us the seats.
		Like, I mean, Katrina and I, Rep, I'm sorry, Rep Pearson and I, we have talked about this before.
		Like, if we have a map that is reflective of the beautiful diversity of this state, then I am happy.
		You don't have to worry about me talking noise to you.
		And ultimately, again, as we have Latinos are voting for Republicans in at least two seats in the current map, I don't care who you vote for, but give it to the people because they are the ones that get us the seats in the first place.
		It is our bodies that they keep using, and then they want to diminish our voices.
		Stop it.
		That is all I'm asking for.
		Stop it.
jolanda jones ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate you all.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Chair recognized Representative Raymond to question the members of the panel.
unidentified		Can you remind me of the time?
		Chairman.
		Dustin, Mike Check.
		Could you remind me of the chaplain's name?
		Because I want to ask, I really just want to ask the chaplain some questions.
		Yes.
		But I didn't get his name.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		I have him registered as Chaplain Stocklin.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Chaplain Stocklin, yes.
unidentified		What?
unidentified		What?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Stoglin.
unidentified		Stoglin.
		Yes, sir.
		Stockland.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		German, they tell me.
unidentified		Stoglin.
		Before I ask him, and I want to ask him, because you're not a politician, and so I feel like we can get some really straight answers.
		That's a joke, kind of.
		But, Chairman, I do want to correct for the record, Chairman?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Gentlemen, I only recognize the question of the panel.
unidentified		But no, it's not a question of you.
		It's just to correct the record.
		That, you know, I'm sorry she's not here, but Representative Hicklin said that she felt that Trump was wildly popular, even though some didn't agree.
		And I just want to, for the record, stipulate that wildly popular is now defined by 39 percent approval, according to Fox News, 39 percent approval in the country.
		Wildly popular, that's what that means.
		The other thing, though, I want to mention because I'm Hispanic and I have the most Hispanic state rep seat in the country.
		You know, we have a gentleman here who ran for the United States Senate, Colin Allred, who carried the Rio Grande Valley, which is largely Hispanic, carried my district, which is obviously very Hispanic, overwhelmingly carried it, and carried the Hispanic community against an Hispanic incumbent United States Senator.
		Trump did not win the Hispanic vote in Texas.
		That's fake news.
		Anyway, let me ask the chaplain a couple of questions.
		Chaplain, you said you support House Bill 4.
		Is that right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And you support it because just remind me, because I don't want to put words in your mouth.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I'm an American and I choose to like it.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, but you like it because I think it gives better representation to what is being done in these districts.
unidentified		I thought you had said, and if I'm not right, then correct me.
		I thought you had said you liked that this would create more Republican members.
		Is that right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		So there would be more Republicans.
		In your view, more Republicans elected to Congress if this map is approved.
		Is that right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
unidentified		And that makes you happy, right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it does.
unidentified		So you're glad that they're doing this map because it's guaranteeing more Republican congressmen get elected.
unidentified		Is that right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		It's guaranteed that people of America can choose to do that if they're not.
unidentified		Well, no, only people in Texas, only people in Texas.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's what I'm talking about.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		The great state of Texas.
unidentified		Well, you said American, but people in Texas.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		We are Americans in Texas.
unidentified		No, but you said people and Americans.
unidentified		Americans and Texas.
al green ▲ ● ▼		Texans.
unidentified		Texan.
		Americans and Texas.
		Texans who are Americans.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		The great states of Americans.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Americans who are Texas.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		And so.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Members.
unidentified		So I just want to clarify.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to hold yield for a second.
		The court reporter waved at me in panic.
		I want to make sure that we all understand.
		I think it was American, Texan, Texan, American, American, Texan.
		Now she's panicking at me.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		The great state of Texas.
unidentified		All right.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Let's just make sure that we slowly don't talk over each other because the court reporter might catch on fire over there.
		So with that, Representative Raymond.
		Apologies to the question of witness.
unidentified		Thank you, Chairman.
		Chaplain Stoglin supports this bill because it would create more districts that would be represented by Republicans in the United States Congress.
		Did you get that?
		Okay, good.
		And so let me ask you, do you think, Chaplain, I know you're listening to a lot of legal stuff up here, but let me ask you, do you believe that race should be considered when we draw up these districts or not?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Let me answer in two parts.
		Race is always considered because people talk about race and that's who we are.
		Secondly, when we continue to talk about we want in this state, specifically, to your point, that we want people to represent us, then that doesn't mean that because we are, we are black people, brown people, that we can only think because we're in a black community or we're in a brown community.
		People choose what they want.
		So again, I've been in those situations in other states, including Mississippi, standing across the street from the Grand Dragon of the Kubernetes Plan of Italy County.
		So been there, done that.
		It's still what people choose to do.
		We are Texans.
		We can choose to vote for black people, brown people, white people, Asian people.
unidentified		That's not my question.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		The question is, are they going to represent that district?
unidentified		That's not my question.
unidentified		You're starting to sound like a politician now.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, I'm sounding like I am.
unidentified		No, no, I'm asking you.
		I asked you very directly, Chaplin, do you believe that race should be considered when they're drawing up these congressional districts?
		No.
		They should not.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Because you can't have it both ways.
		You say, one hand, you don't want to be protected and you want to be protected.
unidentified		You can't have it both ways.
		You want more Republican seats guaranteed.
		That's what you testified to.
		And the only way you do that is by considering race.
		And you know how?
		You put more Anglos into those districts.
		So that's how you do it.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I hear you questioning, but basically, you're leading a question.
unidentified		No, it's not a matter of fact.
unidentified		That's a fact.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That's a fact.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		All Republicans are going to be Anglo.
unidentified		No.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That's an assumption.
unidentified		I'm just telling you, when you look at this, the only way you can take districts represented by the three members who are sitting next to you and guaranteeing that they'll then be Republicans, which is what you want, the only way you do it is by considering race and that you take more Anglos and put them in there.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they would.
unidentified		No, no, that's what you do.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		No, maybe they won't know.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they won't be Anglo.
unidentified		You just said you can look at the maps.
		They are.
		For the record, they are.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		What did they just say?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		You got to wait for the election time, right?
unidentified		No.
		Look at the map.
		All these districts that are being created.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		My position is my position.
unidentified		I know, and your position is that race should be considered.
unidentified		And to get to the race that you want is to put more white people in these districts.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, you don't put words in my mouth.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That's not what I'm saying.
unidentified		That's what you said.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		No, sir.
unidentified		That's what you said.
		Let me say this.
		You said you are in.
		You think that black men, that some people think black men can't think for themselves.
		What you say?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, because as if you're only in a black district, you can only think for black people.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		If you're in a brown district, based on what has been attested to.
unidentified		Do you think that the 80% of black men in Texas that voted for Democrats can think for themselves?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		They can think for themselves.
unidentified		So 80% of the black men in Texas can think for themselves, right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I believe they can.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I think 100% of them can.
unidentified		But the other 20%?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I said 100.
		You said 80%.
		I said 100%.
unidentified		Well, because you said something about the 20% that vote Republican can think for themselves.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I didn't say that, sir.
unidentified		What did you say?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I said that it's as if what's been inferred and indicated and talked long, elongated about as if, you know, color, color, color, and as if nobody's going to vote for black people if they are out of these districts.
		Or they're not going to vote for Hispanic if they're out of these districts, whatever these designated, current designated districts are.
		That's not true.
unidentified		Well, what I know is that by your own testimony, 80% of the black men that voted for Democrats, I guess they do know how to use their brain, right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I never doubted it.
unidentified		Okay, so 80% of black men in this state believe that Democrats should be representing the United States Congress.
unidentified		So they're pretty smart, right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		That's their choice.
unidentified		That's their choice.
unidentified		They're pretty smart, right?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I didn't say that.
unidentified		They're pretty dumb?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I didn't say that at all.
unidentified		Can they think for themselves?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I hope they can.
unidentified		Can they?
		Can they think for themselves?
		I have no idea.
		Last question.
		Can they think for themselves?
		The 80% that vote for Democrat.
		It's not a Republican.
		Can they?
		Yes, it is, Chairman.
		Yes, it is.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		I think that people are going to vote if they vote their choice in history.
unidentified		So they can think for themselves, right?
unidentified		Thank you.
Rich Stoglin Correction 00:00:49
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Mr. Stoglin, I had called you to testify as Chaplain Stonglin, but I looked at your registration.
		Your first name was listed as Chaplin.
		Is that your first name?
unidentified		No.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Okay, what's your first name?
unidentified		Rich.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Rich.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		R-I-C-H?
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Do I have your permission to change your registration to the first name of Rich, last name Stoglin?
unidentified		Yes.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		And we'll make that correction right now.
chaplain rich stoglin ▲ ● ▼		Good to go.
unidentified		All right.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		With that, members of the panel, thank you for your testimony.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		This panel is excused.
sylvia garcia ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, if you'll indulge me, I do have a letter that was given to me after my testimony from the Congressional Spencer Caucus of the United States Congress.
Texas Tribune: Partisan Gain 00:07:06
sylvia garcia ▲ ● ▼		Could I submit that for the record?
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Please hand that to the clerk.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		Okay.
sylvia garcia ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much.
cody vasut ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Congresswoman.
		Members, we're going to now take a little break.
		The House Select Committee on Congressional Redistricting will stand at ease for five minutes.
unidentified		Earlier this week on C-SPAN Radio's Washington Today program, we spoke to a reporter covering the redistricting issue in Texas.
		Joining us now for the latest on the Texas Republican moves to redraw congressional district maps in that state is Gabby Barenbaum, Washington correspondent for the Texas Tribune.
		Thank you for being with us.
		So a proposed map was released by the State House Republicans on Wednesday.
		What's been the reaction to it?
		Well, Democrats are obviously apoplectic about the map.
		Currently, they have 13 seats, 12 members of Congress, and one open seat that's expected to go to a Democrat.
		Under the new map, five of them would be redrawn to favor Republicans.
		So that's five Democrats who are looking at potentially losing their seats if the map works as intended.
		And so they're obviously furious, both on political grounds and then also concerned about the implications of potentially violating the Voting Rights Act by packing or cracking voters of color into various districts to dilute their ability to let the chance of their choice.
		So those are the areas in which Democrats are really focused.
		When the map was released, was any explanation given as to why these lines are now in this place instead of that place?
		Or I guess to put another way, do we know how they decided to draw, what factors the Republicans took into account in creating these new districts?
		I mean, I think it's clear that the goal here is to maximize the Republican seats.
		President Trump has publicly said he wanted Texas to redistrict to pick up a map with five seats.
		They've been working with the White House on this.
		And Republicans have argued in court with the current map and will argue with the new map that the goal here is partisanship.
		The goal here is to increase the number of Republican seats.
		And I think that's just really the cut and dry explanation as to why they're redrawing these lines.
		We're almost two weeks into the special session.
		The first couple of days have seen a lot of House and Senate hearings in Texas and getting public input.
		Almost all the people testifying, though, are against this effort.
		They seem to be Democrats.
		Are these hearings required or why were they held?
		I mean, this is part of the public process of getting testimony.
		Obviously, I think a lot of the attendees at the hearings have rightfully pointed out they were testifying without a map to look at when submitting testimony.
		And so I think you are seeing a lot of anger at these hearings, and there will be further hearings because people recognize and the Republicans, I think, have been open in saying this is for partisan gain, like I mentioned.
		And so I think that's why you've seen such an explosion at these hearings and why Democrats are going to continue to press the issue.
		Congressman Akeem Jeffries, the U.S. House minority leader, is in Austin, Texas today saying that he wants to nationalize this debate.
		What have you seen down in Texas in turning this into a national issue?
		I mean, it's a bit, you know, it's a bit difficult because this is somewhat niche on one hand.
		You're talking about exactly where lines are drawn.
		But on the other hand, you have people whose member of Congress is going to change.
		You know, they are going to feel this.
		And so I think Democrats are, you know, Leader Jeffries certainly is part of that, are hoping to nationalize this issue for fundraising purposes, you know, for electoral purposes to try to make the case here that Republicans are trying to steal, right, is the word they're using, steal seats, to, you know, decrease the chance that they'll lose the House in the midterm.
		So because the House of Representatives margin is so close and five seats can make a huge difference, I think you're seeing the Democrats really trying to fire up their base about this issue and explain that this could be the difference between Democratic or Republican control of the House in the 2026 midterm.
		We're talking with Gabby Berenbaum from the Texas Tribune.
		So what are the next steps?
		The special session is a few weeks in and only a few weeks to go.
		Yeah, so this was a proposal on the House side.
		It would need to be voted on in the House and in the Senate.
		And we'll see if the Senate has a different proposal and then approved by the governor.
		The big question right now in Austin is will Democrats walk out to deny Republicans a quorum and then have them be unable to proceed with the maps?
		They've done that before, including on this issue.
		In 2003, Republicans pursued a mid-decade redistricting.
		In that case, Democrats walked out and held up the proceedings for quite a while before the quorum break ended.
		They came back and the maps were ultimately passed.
		And so we'll see if Democrats try to use that delay tactic.
		It's expensive and difficult to coordinate, but we'll see if they're able to do that.
		And they would have to do that pretty quickly because as you mentioned, the special session doesn't have that much more time to go.
		And has Governor Abbott been saying anything since the special session began?
		So Governor Abbott has not really publicly talked about this.
		We had some reporting in the Texas Tribune that behind the scenes, he wasn't too jazzed about the idea of a new map until President Trump personally called him and asked him to pursue it.
		In his initial call for the special session, he justified the redistricting as needing, you know, as being needed because of a letter from the Department of Justice saying that a few districts were unconstitutional racial gerrymanders.
		Republicans in the state house have denied that.
		That was the ostensible reason for the redistricting, the legal justification that they used.
		Republicans have repeatedly said they did not use race in drawing these original maps that they're now changing.
		So there's been some dispute over that.
		But Governor Abbott has been pretty reserved on the issue.
		And finally, one of the other big issues on the agenda for the special session is the relief from the devastating floods.
		If the Democrats were to walk out and lead the state and boycott this, would that also hold up passage of that legislation?
		Yeah, so that would sort of hold up the ability of the House to do any of it, of the state house to do any of its business.
		And that's sort of part of the political messaging on this.
		Democrats have accused Republicans of intentionally putting these redistricting bills ahead of flood bills, prioritizing partisan gain in the U.S. House over addressing the floods.
	On the reverse side, yes, the Democrats do walk out.
	Republicans are likely going to accuse them of obstructing any flood-related response bills.
	And so you see sort of political positioning on both sides there vis-a-vis the flood.
	Gabby Barrenbaum, Washington correspondent for the Texas Tribune.
	You can find her stories at texastribune.org and on X at BaronBaum.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you.
Saturday Morning Policy Chat 00:00:55
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al green ▲ ● ▼		And pass president nominal.
unidentified		Why are you doing this?
		This is outrageous.
		This is a tandaroo clause.

Chapters

00:00:00 People Of Texas Won't Forget
00:14:54 Diluting Minority Voices
00:30:12 Why We Left America
00:31:37 Betrayal Of District 30
00:46:48 Addressing Coalition Districts
01:01:52 Who Gets to Choose?
01:16:57 Hiring Local Talent
01:19:59 Hispanic Opportunity Districts At Risk
01:25:49 Voting Trends Changing
01:28:29 Specifically On Black Males
01:34:48 Thank You for Your Service
01:50:23 Ussc Or Fifth Circuit?
01:53:00 Real Legislation Considered
02:08:30 Rich Stoglin Correction
02:09:05 Texas Tribune: Partisan Gain
02:15:56 Saturday Morning Policy Chat