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July 21, 2025 05:59-06:59 - CSPAN
59:53
Q&A Presidential Legacies
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p
peter slen
cspan 06:56
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j
jason shurka
00:04
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Speaker Time Text
unidentified
A friend of mine who, a Navy vet, saw the flag at the office that needed to be replaced, said, wouldn't this be great if this can be something that we did for anyone?
Comcast has always been a community-driven company.
This is one of those great examples of the way we're getting out there.
Comcast supports C-SPAN as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
And now on C-SPAN, we're joined by four guests.
Mark Updegrove is President and CEO of the Lyndon Johnson Foundation.
David Kramer is the executive director of the George W. Bush Institute.
Stephanie Street is the executive director of the Clinton Foundation.
And Alice Gonzalez-Yates is CEO of the George and Barbara Bush Foundation.
Ms. Yates, why are you all in D.C.?
unidentified
So it's a natural place to be when you're a school of government and public service, at least we think so.
27 years ago, the Bush School opened as a part of the library and museum dedicated by President Bush.
And he always, I think the team always dreamed of having a presence in Washington, D.C.
And about five years ago, that dream became a reality.
I opened the Bush School of Government and Public Service, offering master's degrees in national security and intelligence and a footprint for Texas A ⁇ M and certainly a platform to encourage the next generation of leaders in public service.
So as a PLS partner, knowing that they came to D.C. as part of their program, it was just a natural space to convene and be an extension of our part of the Presidential Leadership Scholars.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Stephanie Street, we have two Democrats and two Republicans, but you all are working together on what?
unidentified
Well, we're really all working together on a number of items, but specifically on the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program, which we're here celebrating our 10-year anniversary.
This program was founded 10 years ago by President Clinton and President Bush, and it was meant to bring together a diverse group of mid-career leaders to come together to study lessons learned from these four presidents and to really hone their leadership style.
But specifically, in this sort of time of division, it's bringing people who have very different perspectives on the world together to learn how to solve problems, to find common ground, and really get back to seeing each other as human beings.
And so through this program, and we bring in really professionals from across the country, people from all different sectors to share their experiences.
But it's really rooted in these four presidents and their leadership journeys.
And so that is sort of the underpinning of the whole program.
But it's amazing.
And so we're here today to celebrate the last module of this class.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
David Kramer, George W. Bush Institute.
How would you describe his leadership qualities?
unidentified
I think President George W. Bush, son of President George H.W. Bush, was a leader who took an approach wanting to hear all different views.
He wanted to make sure he had as much information as possible to make the best informed decisions that he could.
And what this program does, the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program does, is give the scholars an opportunity to hear from two living former presidents, President Clinton when they go to Little Rock and to Dallas from President Bush.
And I think giving the scholars that window into how these two former presidents viewed issues, how they challenged their staff to make sure that they were providing different viewpoints and to make sure that they were taking in all different considerations.
At the Bush Institute, we operate on four principles, freedom, opportunity, accountability, and compassion.
And I think this Presidential Leadership Scholars Program that our four centers and foundations work together on revolve around those values or very similar ones of the other organizations.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Now, Mark Updegrove, Lyndon Johnson's managerial style is probably well known, renowned.
How would you describe it?
unidentified
Well, it's right.
And the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program, Peter, we look at his influence and persuasion.
So we look at all the presidents and the leadership qualities that really define their leadership and allowed them to succeed in the role of president.
And for President Johnson, you and I have talked about this.
It's influence and persuasion.
It's the Johnson treatment.
It's the way he got things done, the way he brought people over to his side.
And that speaks to the enormous legislative mark that he made through the Great Society, which is in some ways the foundation of modern America.
So we take the scholars through that aspect of President Johnson's leadership and the way we do it, because we don't have a former president.
And when we started this program, it should be noted that George H.W. Bush was alive.
He and Mrs. Bush participated as well.
So we were the only ones without a living president.
But we could summon President Johnson contemporaneously by using the telephone tapes, which are this great archival treasure.
And we still do that to really invoke Lyndon Johnson, to bring him into the discussion so that they can hear that influence and persuasion firsthand.
Can I say something about that?
Because the scholars, as you mentioned, they're always very excited to beat the former presidents.
Obviously, you know, as you mentioned, the first couple classes did have the opportunity.
And there's always a little trepidation or not, and curiosity about what are we going to do when we get to the LBJ Foundation and the LBJ Library.
And each class is always stunned after that experience.
And especially the last one you did this year, the opportunity to hear Lyndon Johnson, hear him talking directly to Martin Luther King Jr., to other members, to hear his voice booming in the room, they always say it's always one of the most moving experiences of the whole program being there.
I think because they don't, most of them weren't alive when Lyndon Johnson was president.
They're learning a lot firsthand about this presidency that they might not have known otherwise.
And I should say, Peter, before we go on, that we were lucky to be invited into this program by Presidents Bush and Clinton.
They formulated the program and brought us into it.
Due to their largesse, we've been a partner for the last 10 years.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Alice Gonzalez-Yates, just because you share a surname and ties, how closely do the two Bush groups work together?
unidentified
So I think, you know, they're in a different situation right now as an institute with a living principle.
And so I think we're talking more now than we probably ever have about what we could do together.
I certainly lean on the family, your president being one of the members of that family, for advice and guidance on how we promote and preserve the legacy as we get further away from President and Mrs. Bush living.
Such deep respect for the values that are across the Bush family.
So there's certainly coordination there, and we have very like-minded stakeholders.
Andy Card, for instance, when the presidential leadership scholars come to College Station, he's one of our storytellers and obviously a storyteller from that administration as well.
So I think there's a lot of ways in which we naturally, our worlds collide, and ways in which we can lean on your living president, the 43rd president, as an extension and continuation of our mission where we say we always want to be 41-like.
And so we still have an example of that that is living in the sun of the 41st president.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
And in fact, you replaced Andy Card as CEO of the foundation.
unidentified
I did.
You know, I don't know if you replace Andy Card doing anything.
I said, you know, they're very big shoes to fill, so I just started new footsteps.
He's an extraordinary example of a public servant.
He has been back to Texas AM to serve in roles with either the Bush School or the Bush Foundation on many different occasions because he exemplifies the noble calling of public service.
And when you're asked, you serve.
Certainly, the respect that people have for the 41st president is so endearing.
So they say yes when we ask for them to do many things, and Andy Card is an example of that.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Now, I'm going to bring this up now because I don't want it to be an afterthought, but right behind you is a portrait of Barbara Bush.
The foundation is named after George and Barbara, Laura, Secretary Clinton, and Lady Bird, all very strong first ladies.
How would you define, and how would you define their role in the larger administration?
unidentified
Well, first of all, the name of our foundation is the Bill Hillary and Chelsea Clinton Foundation.
And after Secretary Clinton left her role as Secretary of State, she joined the foundation officially.
And both she and Chelsea are very involved in our work.
Obviously, Secretary Clinton, with her decades of experience working on behalf of women and girls in our country and around the world, has a really unique lens that she brings to the Clinton Foundation, to our work, but also to this program.
This year, she spoke to the scholars at the module at the Clinton Center, along with President Clinton and some other officials from our administration.
And I think people are just really interested in hearing her perspective, hearing her views, and understanding the leadership challenges that she's had.
And hearing her in her own voice describe that was a really powerful, powerful experience for the scholars this year.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
David Kramer?
unidentified
Mrs. Bush is very actively involved in everything that the George W. Bush Presidential Center does.
There's a national park as part of our campus, and that is named after Mrs. Bush.
She takes the presidential leadership scholars on a tour of the park as well.
Pretty much everything that is designed in the center is thanks to Mrs. Bush.
And President Bush relies heavily and deeply on her advice and counsel on many different issues, did when they were in the White House, continues to do so today.
So I think we have been blessed by having two First Ladies who have remained very active and guide the work we do.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
And Mrs. Bush has taken me on that tour, and I remember standing on a balcony and she's pointing out the natural grasses or the indigenous grasses.
unidentified
For first-time visitors, they may think, boy, the lawnmowers must be broken.
You'll see pretty tall grass there, but that is intentional, just so visitors know.
And it is mowed once in a while, just to keep it down a little bit.
But Mrs. Bush pays keen interest to the landscaping of the whole campus.
And it shows, and I think people really enjoy it.
And it's available to the whole Dallas community as well.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Mark Updegrove, did you ever get to know Lady Bird Johnson?
unidentified
No, Peter.
I tried to interview her for my first book, and by then she had had a stroke, so I never got a chance to meet her.
But she imbued the spirit of the LBJ library almost more than Lyndon Johnson did.
She was married to Lyndon Johnson for 37 years.
But when he died, she would live for 34 more years and spent much of that time at the LBJ library.
So you can feel her welcoming spirit when you walk into that library.
I think she was vitally important during the course of the administration.
Lady Bird Johnson was the one who could ward away the demons that inhabited LBJ's psyche and summon his better angels and get the most from him.
She knew what he was capable of, but he had these psychological burdens, and she could manage him in a way that nobody else could.
So I think she played an invaluable role during the course of his presidency to get the most out of him and played an equally important role after the presidency, in particular in building the LBJ Presidential Library and the adjacent LBJ School of Public Affairs.
And I'll just, because you mentioned that we carry the name of both George and Barbara Bush and our foundation.
And what a lot of people don't know about them, when they opened the library and the museum at Texas AM, they became really a part of the fabric of that campus.
In fact, they kept an apartment there, which is where our offices are.
So you could find them in the rec center with the students and Mrs. Bush reading stories at the library for story time.
And as we've celebrated her centennial year and the unveiling of the stamp, most recently we've really dug into her contributions as a first lady, obviously literacy, high on the list of her advocacy and policy work and just her genuine care.
But everyone would say and all of her family members that there would not be a president George H.W. Bush without Barbara Bush.
So when the decision was made for the foundation to carry both of their names, it was to encompass really what their presence there at Texas AM was and then the larger course of their presence together, 73 years of marriage.
So we feel very fortunate to carry both of those names and perpetuate and promote both legacies.
And it's, I think, really special that the president was keen on doing that.
And Peter, I think what makes this Presidential Leadership Scholars program so unique is, and Stephanie referred to this, we give the scholars an opportunity to look through the lens of the four presidencies of how they handle tough issues, Republicans and Democrats, evenly divided here.
And there really is no other opportunity like that.
There are many leadership programs, many of them outstanding programs, but this one is unique in that sense.
And so I think the involvement of the current living form of presidents, but also the opportunity to hear about the experiences of the LBJ and Bush 41 presidencies in their lives is extremely important for these scholars.
It adds to their understanding of how difficult some of these decisions that the president's had to make, but they also can then apply those lessons to the challenges they face in their careers.
We will have almost 600 alumni in this program.
And these are people, as Stephanie said, who are looking to solve problems either in their community, the nationwide level, even on the global stage.
And hearing how presidents had to wrestle with some of these difficult challenges, I think, provides them with a little more confidence to address the challenges they face.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Is there a compare and contrast section for the scholars of leadership styles?
unidentified
Can I just add one thing and answer your question, Peter?
But Stephanie and I were there when the program was announced here in Washington 10 years ago.
And I remember this, you may too.
We were at the then museum, which, and you could see over their shoulders, Presidents Bush and Clinton as they were announcing this program, the U.S. Capitol.
And I remember thinking to myself when they announced the program and they were talking about each other's leadership styles.
Right, they always talk about each other.
Right.
They were complimenting them.
Clinton would compliment Bush on what he thought he did right and vice versa.
And we were looking at this thinking, this is the way it should be.
And that spirit has been maintained throughout the course of the program.
It's not about Republican or Democrat.
It's about what's best for America.
And grooming these leaders to make a difference in our country is what we have been concentrating on ever since.
What's best for America, Republican, Democrat, Independent, doesn't matter.
And how we do it together and looking at this program, how the four entities, how we work together, how we solve problems together.
And it's a thread I think that runs through all of the presidents that we've served through this program, how their leadership style, but also how they really understood in their own ways how to bring people together to solve problems, which sounds very quaint these days when you think about what's happening in the polarization.
They all had a real skill set in understanding how to get to know the person that they were going to be working alongside with, how to get people enrolled in their vision when you're trying to pass tough legislation.
And they also didn't see things as a zero-sum game.
They all understood the compromise and how you had to find common ground.
And I think most of the success in our administration and others was because they were very skilled in doing that and understood how important it was to find ways to work together.
I think this program also instills in the scholars the importance of respect.
As we've talked about, the scholars come from all different backgrounds, political views, their jobs, their experiences, but to treat each other with respect.
You may strongly disagree with a person over there, but don't question that person's patriotism.
Don't question that person's integrity or intelligence.
Disagree and debate about views he or she may have.
And it's also important to treat people with respect no matter what rank they have.
Everyone is deserving of respect, and I think that comes through from all four presidential administrations.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, Bob Dole used to say, this person is my opponent, not my enemy.
unidentified
Exactly.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Mark Updegrove, you, prior to being the president and CEO of the LBJ Foundation, you ran the Library and Museum.
Let's walk through the differences between foundations and museums and libraries and institutes and how they're funded and who runs them, etc.
unidentified
It's a really good question, and I think we're all going to have slightly different answers, Peter.
In the case of, I think in every case, they're public-private partnerships.
The public side is the National Archives and Records Administration, which oversees the presidential libraries.
In particular, the records, the archives, which we preserve and present to the American people.
They are processed and made available to the American people.
That's part of the transparency that is a hallmark of American democracy.
The foundations put additional money into these institutions.
Actually, they build the libraries, they build the edifices and turn them over to the American people through the National Archives, which maintain these institutions.
But we continue to be involved and put money into them to make them what they are.
So it's very different.
My organization is slightly different from Stephanie's at Clinton and David's at George W. Bush and Alice's at George H.W. Bush.
But the bottom line is, in some form or fashion, they are public-private partnerships.
But the American people should know that the bulk of the funding comes from the foundations.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
So, Stephanie Street, as executive director of the Clinton Foundation, are you a government employee?
unidentified
No, I work for the nonprofit entity, and the partnership is really what's important at all of our institutions.
And we all have a little bit of a different model.
At the Clinton Presidential Center, the foundation and the library work very closely together on our programs, but the library staff really, a lot of them, focus on the core mission, which is to preserve and open the records of those eight years.
We do work very collaborative on civic engagement and education and our public programs.
But as Mark said, we provide the funding for all of our external-facing activities, if you will, and work together collaboratively with the Clinton Library.
Also, the Clinton School of Public Service is on our campus.
And we work very collaboratively.
Vicki Soto, the dean, we stole her from the LBJ School.
And, you know, the opportunities for collaboration among our three entities is very, very powerful as well.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Where are you located?
unidentified
I'm actually in Little Rock.
I'm a native Arkansan.
I'm sure you couldn't tell that from the way I'm speaking.
But yes, I am in the Little Rock office.
But as you know, we also have part of our foundation is located in New York, where a lot of our policy work is done.
The Clinton Global Initiative is run from our New York office.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Is that part of your work?
unidentified
Yes, we all work very closely together.
We are the institution from obviously the library, the museum, the eight years of the Clinton presidency, but we work very collaborative on what we're doing now, what we are doing for the future, how we are working on the issues that President Clinton and Secretary Clinton and Chelsea Clinton all care deeply about.
And we more or less kind of divide and conquer and collaborate together on implementing those programs.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Mr. Kramer?
unidentified
The George W. Bush Presidential Center is based in Dallas and that includes the library, which, as Mark mentioned, is run by the National Archives and Records Administration.
We, a little over two years ago, took over control from NARA of our museum.
So the museum is a second component of the center.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
So you took over the museum.
unidentified
We reached an agreement with the National Archives and Records Administration for the Bush Center to run the museum.
That is not the case with all presidents.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
That is not the case with all.
Do you run your own museum or does the archives?
unidentified
It's a partnership.
We oversee facets of the museum, the ticketing, the museum store, the restaurant.
We work collaboratively on the partnerships.
And obviously, they are primarily working on the documents at the records, but we work together on exhibits.
We work together on education, civic engagement programs.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
So just to be clear, nobody here is a government employee, correct?
Am I right about that?
unidentified
Correct.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
So back to you, Mr. Kramer.
You took over the museum.
unidentified
Museum.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
For what purpose?
Why do you think that?
unidentified
So that we would have more control over the museum and the operations of it.
It's more efficient that way.
And so if there is a federal government shutdown, for example, our museum would not be affected by that, whereas it used to be in the past when NARA was controlling it.
So the library is one component, the museum is a second, and then the third component of the Bush Presidential Center is the part I run, the George W. Bush Institute, which is involved on policy issues.
And we work on domestic issues such as immigration, education, veterans and military families, and economic growth, then global issues that cover freedom and democracy, global health, women's advancement, anti-corruption and kleptocracy.
We have a Strengthening Our Democracy program, and we also have an online journal called The Catalyst.
So that's the part of the organization that I run.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Just to follow up, what's your relationship then with Pearl Ponce, who runs the library for the same complex on the same campus?
But she's a government employee in this case.
unidentified
Correct.
Yes, I'm not.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I went to all the websites that you all have, and I think the George W. Bush is the strongest when it comes to having policy positions on the website.
Is that a fair statement to you?
unidentified
I think so.
I don't want to compare to my colleagues, but we are very active when it comes to policy issues.
Every two years, we put forward policy recommendations for the new Congress and depending on changes in administration for a new administration on a range of issues, the ones that I just mentioned.
And we believe strongly in U.S. leadership.
We believe in U.S. engagement around the world.
We also believe very strongly in our own democracy and the importance of respect and pluralism.
Support for local journalism is an area where we have actually worked together on those issues.
In fact, Mark's foundation hosted a conference about two years ago, I think.
And so often we are collaborating on issues of common interest, even if there isn't a strong policy component.
We recognize the importance of emphasizing these issues.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Alice Gonzalez-Yates, what about policy when it comes to the George and Barbara Bush Foundation?
unidentified
Yeah, so we, the way in which we are supporting policy is not through positions, but I would say through building that next generation of leaders, policy leaders, through the Bush School of Government and Public Service.
So our relationship is very unique.
We're on the campus of Texas AM University.
We are a contributor as a philanthropic partner to the Bush School of Government and Public Service, providing scholarships, programs, resources for various different lecture series and things that the Bush School implements.
We also provide resources to the library and museum, as Mark described, many different ways in which we support the library and museum.
We don't operate an internal institute within our foundation.
We do try to bring programming to either the Texas AM campus utilizing our network so that students have the opportunity to be exposed to those that embody the principles, the values of the 41st president, so that the legacy is living on in that way.
And then certainly the expectation of the school was this is where that next generation of leader is coming from.
How do we make them best prepared to be the type of leader that all of our principals were?
Our school operates in a very similar fashion.
President Clinton, when he left office, it's on the campus of the Clinton Presidential Center.
On our campus is the Clinton Foundation offices, the Little Rock branch of the Clinton Foundation.
We have the Clinton School of Public Service.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Is that associated with the University of Arkansas?
unidentified
It is, it is.
But what's interesting about that is that when President Clinton left office, he was very interested in public service and the idea that public service, as you will, is a noble calling in training the next generation of leaders.
And so it's different because it's a school of public service.
The majority of the work during the two-year program, I should say a large part of it, is field service, giving the students a portable toolkit to work in various sectors, increase their leadership potential, similar to the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program.
But it really is helping to curate and help empower the next generation of public servants.
It's not a school of public policy or public administration.
It is a school of public service, really focused on the how.
How do you do things?
How do you bring people together?
How do you help communities?
And so very much a very hands-on program.
I think it's so important that our institutions are forward-looking.
Yes.
Yes, we are repositories of the records of these very important administrations.
But we have to remain relevant.
And one of the ways that we remain relevant is through public policy, is by nurturing the next generation of leaders, is through a program like Presidential Leadership Scholars, which is again taking mid-career professionals and enhancing their leadership skills so that they can make a bigger difference in the world.
So it's that forward-looking component that's going to make us relevant as we continue on.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
So Mark Uptergrove, who runs the LBJ Museum and where are you located?
And is a library separate?
Way too many questions.
unidentified
No, no, we're in Austin, Texas, Peter, as you know.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Associated with UT.
unidentified
Well, we're on the campus of the University of Texas, just as the George H.W. Bush is on the campus of Texas AM, the George W. Bush Library and Institute is on the campus of Southern Methodist University, and the Clinton Library and Foundation is associated with the University of Arkansas.
We're on a separate entity, and I can tell you more about why we did that after Mark.
But it's as to who runs the museum, again, it's a joint enterprise, just as it is for all of us.
I mean, with the exception of David, that the foundation has taken over the Bush Libraries Museum.
But we operate it jointly.
There are certain things that the federal government does.
There are certain things that the foundation does.
It's a very smooth, harmonious partnership that has worked for years and years.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
So how closely do you work with Shannon Jarrett, who directs the LBJ Library?
unidentified
Very closely.
Every day we're talking about various things relating to the operation.
As it relates to the exhibits themselves, we run the admissions desk, we run the store, we funnel money into the museum exhibits.
We have a voice at the table for what those exhibits should be.
So it's, again, it's a very harmonious and smooth, collaborative relationship.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Stephanie Street, you wanted to talk about why you are so from the press.
unidentified
President Clinton had many choices about where to put the presidential center, and there were lots of places that really wanted to have this because they understood the potential.
There were offers from places here in DC, the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville.
He ultimately chose Little Rock, I think, for many obvious reasons.
He spent 12 years as governor.
He was our attorney general.
And he really understood and had a vision for what the center could bring to central Arkansas.
And it was strategically placed in an old dilapidated warehouse district.
It was actually a brownfield.
And pulling the thread forward to today, The Little Rock Chamber of Commerce recently did an independent study because we've just celebrated our 20-year anniversary and the 20-year impact.
And one of the really interesting pieces that came from that was the economic impact that the center has made.
We have been a catalyst, not we're not saying because of, but we have had a catalytic effect on the economy of that part of the downtown part of Little Rock.
And it's been calculated to be over $4.9 billion that has been catalyzed by the Clinton Foundation and our presence there.
And then the school, too, what the school has done, and the students that come from the school that come to Little Rock to study and then end up staying in Arkansas and end up staying in central Arkansas and making a real difference in our community.
It's been really incredible.
And they studied that.
They studied the social impact, cultural impact.
And so part of the reason for doing that was President Clinton, I said, had a vision.
He wanted to give back to our state.
He saw this as a vehicle to continue his work, but doing something for the state that gave him so much.
He said, obviously, he would have never been president without the people of Arkansas.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Now, David Kramer, some cynics may say that taking over the library with private money and a private foundation controls the narrative as well.
I want you to address that if you would.
And then I want to hear from the other three about the role of money in these presidential libraries' museums.
unidentified
Sure.
So just to clarify, the library still remains under the control of the National Archives and Records.
I apologize to the museum if I didn't use that word.
The main reason was to ensure that the museum would stay open.
We had experienced, all of us, I think, several federal government shutdowns.
And when that happens, if the museum remains under the control of NARA, the museum shuts down.
The permanent exhibit has not really changed much from when it was under NARA's control.
We have what's called special exhibits that rotate now every two years.
We just finished one on Freedom Matters.
We'll be opening one on, it's called Game Changer, about the role of sports in our society.
And we also have a very special exhibit right now for just a few months, President Bush's paintings.
President Bush has become a very good painter, and he's painted a number of things about the SMU campus.
We're on the campus, as Mark mentioned, of Southern Methodist University.
Mrs. Bush is an alum of SMU.
And Gerald Turner, who just recently stepped down after 30 years as president of SMU, did a fantastic job, welcomed us on the campus.
Jay Hartzel, who was at UT Austin, is now the new president of SMU.
So there's a very strong, healthy relationship between the Bush Center and SMU.
When the idea of opening the George W. Bush Center on SMU campus was first broached, there was some resistance among faculty and students.
That has totally changed.
And these days, now, President Bush, on occasion, may make surprise appearances in classrooms.
And I think that's a huge hit for a lot of the students, some of whom weren't born when he was first elected president.
So that's a little bracing as well.
It changes the entire campus.
You know, I was a student host in 1997 when the library and museum opened.
I still have my volunteer name badge from that experience.
Now, my contribution was finding Chuck Norris and Wayne Newton and Kevin Costner's car, rental car, and seating them.
But I remember it changed our campus that day because all of a sudden world leaders were coming to visit College Station, Texas.
And President Bush was sitting in a classroom or that, you know, walking the dog.
And so came to life a hero.
So all of a sudden these students could envision who they wanted to be.
And when who they want to be is someone like our principal, it's a game changer.
It's an absolute game changer.
And we still see that effect today.
It's our proudest moment as a foundation.
You said you wanted to talk about money.
I think for us, money equals impact, continuous impact, for a legacy that we believe is essential in the formation of these young leaders.
So for us to be able to impact the students at the Bush School of Government and Public Service who are going into the CIA or State Department, 80% of the graduates, you know, when you're at the School of Government and Public Service, when they're going back into public service, that's a good thing.
So as a foundation, when we get to see that and be part of that happening, it's tremendous.
From the library and the museum perspective, when the federal government can't or doesn't have the full extent of the resources to tell the story of the legacy in the way in which we would like or amplify it in the way in which we would like,
not in terms of what story is being told, but how broadly it's being shared, we get to impact that by creating a larger program or enhancing an exhibit or bringing in a special exhibit where they would otherwise be limited maybe with what resources they would have.
And the opportunities, like the opportunities for people of all walks of life and all ages to learn and to see things that they wouldn't be able to see.
And the school buses of the state of the world.
Exactly.
All around the state of Texas.
And exposing them to different ideas, different thoughts, different cultures.
I mean, we were very lucky to have Ruth Vader Ginsburg speak.
It was one of her last public appearances and she came to Little Rock at the invitation of President Clinton.
And we had this at the then all-tell arena.
And in Arkansas, which is a very red state now, we had 15,000 people that attended that program in person and had an almost 15,000 person waiting list.
People wanted to come see Ruth Vader Ginsburg because not because she was a D or an R, but because of the impact she's made.
She was a Supreme Court justice.
So the opportunities the community has to have those experiences, to meet people from all over the world, to see exhibits that we put together, our temporary exhibit programs, like that they wouldn't see anyplace else if not for that center being where it was.
It's very profound.
I guess the presidents that we represent all have wildly different legacies they govern during different times, which posed different challenges, Peter.
But I think the one thing they all represent is public service, the importance of public service.
There's not a single president, George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Lyndon Johnson, believe deeply in public service.
And if we just get people coming into our facilities or coming through our educational programs, understanding the value that they can bring and the meaning that they can bring to their life by serving the public, then we will have done something very important.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Mark Updegrove, I think you were active in the Presidential Library Museum Foundation system when the whole Nixon Foundation library schism happened.
Is that a case study for y'all in how to coordinate?
unidentified
Yeah, well, it shows the importance of the foundation and the library getting along.
So the private foundation and the public side, the National Archives and Records Administration, which administers the library, having this partnership that works.
Fortunately, we always have.
And I think there are, as in any relationship, there are bumps in the road and you have to smooth them out.
And I think we've done so largely successfully.
The presidential library system under the auspices of NARA, the National Archives and Records Administration, really works at the end of the day.
And because of these foundations pouring money into these institutions, it gives something greater to the American people.
So if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
And we've got something that has worked for a long time.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Jim Byron is now the acting archivist of the United States, and he came from the Nixon Foundation.
Does that benefit y'all?
unidentified
I think it does.
I think it really does because his background and his understanding of the very important role that we play and the opportunities for us to work together and have a really strong partnership, he fundamentally understands that given the experiences he's had at the Nixon Foundation.
So I don't know if this will help or hurt him, but I'm thrilled that he's in this position.
And I appreciate how he has reached out to each one of us to talk about our challenges with NARA, to talk about things that work well, sort of helping us all share ideas, really understanding that each one has a different relationship.
And he's just been really supportive thus far.
And I really appreciate the perspective he brings to his role.
I think he's giving us the opportunity to be innovative.
Actually, yes.
We met, I've only been in this position for the new person.
But we met, I want to say, day 10 that I was in this role and he's made himself available for the questions that I've had as we look at the next generation of what we're doing in the legacy.
And I think allowing us to innovate and creating a dialogue with us and our library directors that's encouraged.
And I don't have something to predate what's happening now, so I won't do a comparison, but I'll certainly say how I feel under his leadership is that we have this unique opportunity to really evaluate how we're working together and just grow in that way with innovation at top of mind.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Well, as the newbie, where were you before?
unidentified
I was here.
I was here at the Bush School of Government and Public Service.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Were you teaching?
unidentified
No, I was our Associate Vice President, Strategic Initiative.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Fundraising.
unidentified
That and partnership building.
So when you have been a school that's been in existence for 27 years, certainly you have a strong foundation.
But moving to D.C., we recognize the importance of capturing all the new partnership opportunities here.
Everyone that wanted to introduce us to ambassador and how can we bring those elements to the Bush School and recruiting our adjunct professors, meeting with former administration officials that wanted to mentor students.
And so I had, I think, what would be the second best job now because this is the best professional opportunity that I've had.
But I got to tell the story of what we do, introduce students to this larger networking community, and build partnerships that would advance what we're doing.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Are you all 501c3s or nonprofit organizations?
unidentified
We are, we are.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
David Kramer, how long did you work for George W. Bush in his administration?
unidentified
I served all eight years in the State Department, met him twice, so I cannot pretend to have been able to do it.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
You know him better now, I'm sure.
unidentified
I know him a lot better now.
I had great respect for him back in the day.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
How'd you get into the administration?
unidentified
How does that work?
As is often the case in Washington, it was through networking.
Someone I knew who joined the administration asked me to join her as her senior advisor, Paula Dobryansky.
And I stayed for all eight years in four different positions.
And then I stayed involved in the Bush Center on an advisory council on the Human Freedom Project that the Bush Center ran.
I was offered a job actually at the center in 2010.
I turned it down because I was offered a job to run Freedom House the exact same day.
But then another opportunity came around the second time in 2021.
They asked me to join, and this time I was very happy to say yes.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
How much of your day is spent fundraising?
unidentified
In my position, very little.
Thanks to having a tremendous development team, Ken Hirsch, who's our outgoing president and CEO, has done a phenomenal job in building a solid financial foundation.
He'll be replaced in September by Shiloh Brooks, who's at Princeton.
We're excited to welcome Shiloh on board.
I am in a rare position, other than the time I was in government, where I'm not often extending my hand, hoping somebody will put money in my hand in response, having been in the think tank NGO world for much of my career.
So I'm in a very fortunate position where I can focus on policy and be engaged in programs like this one here at the Presidential Leadership Scholars.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
And I think we could spend an entire hour talking about Stephanie Street's previous job at the Clinton White House, scheduling.
unidentified
Yes.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
What was your day?
unidentified
I don't remember.
I was there.
Well, I actually started on the Clinton Presidential Exploratory Committee in the summer of 1991 as a young...
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
What were you doing?
unidentified
I had graduated from college.
I had been in D.C. for a year.
Everyone in our state hoped that Bill Clinton would run for president.
He thought about running in 1988.
Everyone knew he was considering it in that time.
I had graduated from college.
I was going to go to law school.
I was studying for the LSAT.
And I saw President Clinton one day.
I was very active in young Democrats.
He was in Northwest Arkansas talking to the people about whether he should run or not.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
And he was governor at the time.
unidentified
He was governor.
This was in July of 1991.
I went up to him at the event.
I had known my father was in politics.
Arkansas is a small state.
I had volunteered on his campaigns.
But I went up to him and I said, if you decide to run for president, I would like to work on your campaign.
And he said, you know what, Stephanie, you should go to Little Rock.
I'm opening up my presidential exploratory committee.
Go talk to Linda.
And so I knew Linda was his secretary of the governor's office.
Well, because Arkansas is such a small state, I knew Linda because she was my father's secretary for 14 years.
She was the prosecuting attorney in the 5th Judicial District.
I will fast forward.
I worked on the entire campaign.
October 3rd, he announced 1991, and I was there from the first day to the last day, January 20th.
So it was a wonderful experience.
I was very young.
I was 26 when I got to the White House.
I was 34 when I left.
Don't do the math.
But to have an opportunity at that young age to be part of something so historic and so meaningful and then to be able to continue the work working for President Clinton and Secretary Clinton and continuing to promote in advance and innovate the things that they are doing to try to help people live better lives is just such a blessing.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, but I've seen congressional schedulers.
I can only imagine a presidential schedule.
unidentified
Like I said, I was very young.
I had no life except for work.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
How often would a daily schedule change for a president?
unidentified
Minute by minute it would change.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Minute by minute.
You would schedule them minute by minute?
unidentified
Minute by minute.
And, you know, our office didn't just do the White House schedule.
It was everything he did from the time he got up in the morning till the time he went to bed tonight, domestic foreign White House meetings.
It was a very intense job.
And as the White House, we said the scheduling office is where the rubber meets the road.
What's the most important commodity you have in a White House?
The President's time.
So I wasn't the decider.
Sorry to bother you.
But the decider.
was the implementer of a process by which everyone in the White House had input and so that the president had input and then it was really putting all the pieces together, the mechanics of it, and trying to be organized and working closely with the chief of staff and all the other assistants to the president.
It was a very collaborative job, but it was also where you had to look out for the president, protect his time, made sure he still had time to be a human being, that he had time with his daughter, who obviously was a very young child at that point.
So it was a very much of a pulling all the pieces together, trying to stay on top, be organized, and make sure people had a seat at the table and had a voice at the table.
And then obviously with the chief of staff and with the president, you know, decisions were made about how he would spend his time.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
So people were either your best friend or your worst enemy in that position.
unidentified
Or I think I was either, yes, yes, depending on what they wanted.
Yeah.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Mark Updegrove, you said that you didn't get a chance to meet the Johnsons, but you've interviewed, what, seven presidents since?
Who have you interviewed?
unidentified
Well, these three among them add to that.
Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Joe Biden, who am I missing?
I must be.
Rich Barack Obama.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Ronald Reagan.
unidentified
Yeah.
Reagan I did not interview, but I did interview Nancy Reagan and hosted her a couple of times in Los Angeles when I was at Time Magazine.
But I did not know LBJ.
I feel like I do partly because of the tapes that we've been talking about earlier.
But I thought when I was asked by the National Archives if I was interested in running a presidential library years ago, I said, yeah, I'd love to.
But LBJ is the library that I'd like to run.
And the reason for that is because I thought that LBJ's legacy was largely unheralded.
He was largely underappreciated.
And at the time, he was most known for Vietnam, which is a very important part of his legacy, but certainly not the only part.
And I think people were losing sight of the legislative record of Lyndon Johnson, which goes back to that influence and persuasion that we talk about in the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program.
How he saw the laws of the great society passed, which again had this transformational effect on America.
Its civil rights, its federal aid to education, its environmental protection, and on and on and on.
And I don't think that people realize the extent to which they live in Lyndon Johnson's America.
And they come to the library, the scholars do, and they see that one beautiful piece of art that you have that is every pen that LBJ signed, the signing pens from all of the legislation.
And that sort of opens the door for the conversations about the impact and what he did for our country.
And the scholars are always amazed to really have a deep dive into understanding what he, the public service, and understanding what motivated him and how he did it.
Yeah, thank you, Stephanie.
That's the shadow box containing the pens that LBJ used to sign laws, landmark laws in 1965, which is really the high tide of the Great Society after he's elected to the presidency in his own right.
And you have in that case the pens that signed, that created Medicare and Medicaid and Head Start and Vista and the National Endowment for the Humanities and the National Endowment for the Arts and the Department of Housing and Urban Development, immigration reform, the biggest immigration reform in history in the Immigration Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Highway Beautification Act, Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, Elementary and Secondary Education Acts and the Higher Education Act.
One year of the Johnson presidency.
So if you bring that to life for young people who may not know the legacy of Lyndon Johnson, they understand how it's touched their lives.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Both his daughters, Lucy and Linda, serve on your board along with Stacey Abrams and Kay Bailey Hutchison, the former Republican senator from Texas, along with some others.
How active are the daughters?
unidentified
Very active, but not interventionalist.
And I think you were talking about the story earlier with David and how we tell that story.
jason shurka ▲ ● ▼
We're very careful to adhere to Lyndon Johnson's wishes.
unidentified
When he dedicated the library, he said, it's all here, the story of our time with the Barkoff.
He wanted people to see the good and the bad of the administration so that we would learn.
We take that to heart.
when we do the exhibits.
And so we tell the story of Vietnam and the flaws in decision-making that were made by Lyndon Johnson based on the advice that he was getting from the members of his staff and cabinet.
We tell the stories of the failed legislation in addition to the ones that succeeded.
Because I think it's really important to tell an unvarnished story so that people understand the triumphs and tragedies and how they led to what we would become.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Stephanie Street, David Kramer, you both have living principles.
unidentified
Do you tell the story with the Barkoff?
I think we do.
I think that the eight years we have the first floor of our museum is really the eight years and a deep dive into the policy, into the successes, and some of the areas that were not as successful.
And telling those stories in a meaningful way with documents, with artifacts, with video, with interviews.
It's a very sort of dynamic exhibition that it's not just President Clinton's voice, it's hearing from the people that served with him as well.
They have a big part in our exhibit.
And looking at one of the exhibit pieces that is actually so powerful and so inexpensive, and it's astounding to us that Ed is still the most popular thing.
People want to come in and see the daily schedules.
And so we have them all displayed in binders, the big three-ring binders.
People can pull them out and look and see what the president was doing that day.
But the larger purpose of that really illustrates the intensity of the job.
When people look at a full day for the President of the United States that starts with a national security briefing at, you know, early in the morning and he ends at 10.30 at night, and that goes on for eight full years and just, you know, the challenges and the complexities, I think that gives them a real sense of the job that these four individuals had and the weight that that carries and really the power of the American presidency.
It's really a way for people to really engage.
Most people look up their own birth dates to see what was happening that day or if they were lucky enough to come to the White House, they want to see it on paper.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
David Kramer, Barkoff?
unidentified
I think, definitely.
We have a decision theater that gives people an opportunity to look at some of the more controversial issues that President Bush had to deal with, 9-11 and its aftermath, Iraq, Hurricane Katrina.
There's also a display in the museum about PEPFAR, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, which has saved over 26 million lives through the generosity of the American people, providing assistance to many countries dealing with the threat of HIV AIDS.
So President Bush has taken the same approach as Stephanie mentioned about President Clinton, which is he wants people to understand how he made the decisions he did, but also recognizes that there has been criticism of some of the decisions he made.
And that is the best way to learn from the history of these four presidential administrations.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Alice Gonzalez-Yates, no living principles for you, but a lot of family members.
Are they involved in the George and Barbara Bush Foundation?
unidentified
They are.
We have several members on our board, grandchildren and direct children, siblings.
I've met with all of them and meet with them all often.
They are, I would describe the same way that you did.
They are a really genuine, lovely family that cares so deeply about George and Barbara Bush that their level of support is one of trust and just taking great interest in ensuring that we have the stories to tell and have access to the stories to tell.
And they're very just kind and supportive.
So we try to share, you know, President and Mrs. Bush, if people don't know, their resting home is in College Station.
Their grave sites are at our presidential center along with Robin.
And so we try to also share all the things that we're doing to promote and preserve the legacy almost like a continuation of the family.
So yes, Governor Bush is the chair of our Board of Trustees.
And Doro and Neil are on our board of directors, as well as Sam LeBlonde, their grandson.
Pierce is very involved.
I could name off many of them that are involved in many different ways.
And as I said, the 43rd president has been very kind and gracious with his time to be the advisory as well.
I'll just mention very quickly that one of our most popular exhibits is actually outside of the museum technically, but it is statues of President Bush 41 and President Bush 43.
And we see more tourists and visitors to the museum take photos from there than anywhere else.
And that is a sign of the bond that the father and son have had.
There's a very famous photo.
Well, it became famous on social media after President Clinton was speaking at one of the graduation ceremonies for PLS.
He went out, he took a picture, one of his staff took a picture of him standing or peeking through those two statues because of his special relationship with the Bush family.
Yeah.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Final question.
In the last couple of years, there have been some record-keeping controversies with both current President Trump and former President Biden.
Does there need to be reform in the record-keeping and the National Archives rules?
unidentified
Well, there's one thing that should be very clear to your viewers, Peter, and to the American people, and that is that the record of a presidential administration belongs to us.
It belongs to the American people.
It does not belong to the president.
The president is serving at the will of the people.
And again, as I mentioned earlier, transparency is one of the hallmarks of American democracy.
The National Archives, which oversees the libraries of all of these presidents, houses those documents.
It's vitally important that they remain in their care and that they are processed and made available to the American people as quickly as possible.
But they do not belong to the president.
They belong to us.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Do you agree with the decision to release the JFK assassination records?
unidentified
Oh, absolutely.
And if there's nothing that compromises our national security apparatus, 100%, or any individual.
And I think that's what I think that the American people should understand.
The reason that the bulk of the, or that the balance of those records had not been released were twofold.
Number one, it might compromise secrets that we still hold in the intelligence community, and it might compromise the identity of those who were involved in some manner in the CIA or the intelligence community around the time of the assassination.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Mark UpdeGrove is president and CEO of the LBJ Foundation in Austin, Texas.
Up the street, David Kramer runs the George W. Bush Institute in Dallas.
Stephanie Street runs the Clinton Foundation over in Little Rock and New York City.
And Alice Gonzalez Yates is CEO of the George and Barbara Bush Foundation in College Station, Texas.
And we appreciate your being our host today here at the Bush School in Washington, D.C.
unidentified
It's our pleasure to have everybody.
peter slen ▲ ● ▼
Thank you all very much.
unidentified
Thank you.
All Q&A programs are available on our website or as a podcast on our C-SPAN Now app.
Congress is back on Monday for legislative business and votes.
The House will consider legislation to increase financial oversight of the Department of Veterans Affairs after last year's budget shortfall.
Members will also vote on bills to increase penalties on individuals who re-enter the U.S. after being deported and to reform the Clean Water Act's project permitting process.
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