CSPAN - Washington Journal 04/17/2025

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April 17, 2025 07:00-09:30 - CSPAN

02:29:51

Washington Journal 04/17/2025

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Main

john mcardle

cspan 27:18

Appearances

brian lamb

cspan 00:39

cory booker

sen/d 00:39

donald j trump

admin 00:47

hakeem jeffries

rep/d 01:08

karoline leavitt

admin 00:39

nicole kobie

00:52

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kristen welker

nbc 00:02

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bart in chicago

callers 00:15

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		A front row seat to democracy.
		Coming up this morning on Washington Journal, your calls and comments live.
		Then we'll discuss the Trump administration's deportation policies and proposed use of the U.S. military to secure the border with Mexico with the Heritage Foundation's Andres Martinez Fernandez and Brookings Institution senior fellow Andre Perry on his new book, Black Power Scorecard: Measuring the Racial Gap and What We Can Do to Close It.
		Washington Journal is next.
		Join the conversation.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		It's Thursday, April 17th, 2025.
		A three-hour Washington Journal is ahead, and we begin today with a question first for Republican viewers only.
		A new poll shows that President Trump's Make America Great Again movement is resonating with a growing number of Americans.
		Today, more than 70% of Republicans identify with the MAGA movement.
		So we want to hear from our GOP viewers on that topic.
		As a Republican, what does MAGA mean to you?
		If you're a Republican in the Eastern or Central time zones, the number 202-748-8000.
		If you're Republican in the Mountain or Pacific time zones, it's 202-748-8001.
		You can also send us a text, that number 202-748-8003.
		If you do, please include your name and where you're from.
		Otherwise, catch up with us on social media.
		On X, it's at C-SPANWJ on Facebook.
		It's facebook.com/slash C-SPAN.
		And a very good Thursday morning to you.
		You can go ahead and start calling in just Republicans in this first half hour.
		We'll have a question for Democrats only at the bottom of the hour.
		But for Republicans, we begin with this question and this poll, a new poll showing a growing number of Republicans identifying with the MAGA movement.
		This is the story from NBC News, which conducted the poll as President Donald Trump nears the 100-day mark of his second term.
		Recent polling from NBC News shows how he has consolidated the Republican Party, not just around himself, but also around his broader Make America Great Again movement.
		36% of all registered voters now identify themselves as MAGA supporters in a new March NBC News poll.
		It's a significant increase, they write, from past polling.
		You can see that increase over time in the bar charts that go with the story.
		The chart showing the share of total registered voters who say they're part of the Make America Great Again movement back in January of 2024, that number was just 20% of all registered voters by Election Day last year.
		It was up to 29%.
		And the latest poll of March 2025, showing 36% of all registered voters identify as being part of the Make America Great Again movement.
		The story noting that the shift is primarily based on Republicans moving more into Donald Trump's camp with a 16-point increase in Republicans identifying as part of the MAGA movement from January of 2024 to March of 2025.
		This poll getting so much attention, including that from the man who created this movement, President Donald Trump posted on his True Social page earlier this week about the poll.
		A just out NBC poll says that MAGA is gaining tremendous support.
		I am not at all surprised, said the president.
		We're asking you, Republicans only, what does MAGA mean to you?
		202-748-8000 if you're Republican in the Eastern or Central time zones, and 202-748-8001 if you're a Republican in the Mountain or Pacific time zones.
		We'll get started right away with Kent out of Illinois up first in Prophetstown.
		Kent, good morning.
		What does MAGA mean to you?
unidentified		Well, it means that America used to be just a wonderful country to live in.
		We were respected all over the world.
		I'm a three-tour Vietnam veteran.
		I feel like the country is worth fighting for, but the youth of today are not going to be taught that at all.
		They'll be taught instead that they're destroying the planet.
		And the first thing that they have to learn, if they're going to be a good Democrat, is it doesn't matter if Trump finds a cure for cancer.
		The only reason he's doing it is to give tax breaks to billionaires.
		How sad must it be to live your whole life thinking it would only be better if billionaires paid more taxes?
		What a pitiful way to live your life.
		When you say this country, when I went in the military, guys used to say, oh, my dad, I said, you had a dad?
		Yeah, our car was so.
		I said, your family owned a car?
		They said, yeah, we had three sisters trying to get in the bathroom.
		I said, you had an inside bathroom in your house.
		And yet I grew up to love this country, willing to die for it, not wanting to die for it, but willing to for what it was.
		We were a country that feared God.
		We lived righteously.
		We didn't dwell on someone having more money than we had.
		And that made us jealous to live our lives.
		We were just so consumed with hate for rich people that we couldn't live our lives.
		What makes America great is the love of the country, what it stands for, justice.
		The idea that we let in 10, 15, 20 million people to change the paradigm of our country, and Democrats remain mute.
		How sick can your soul be?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kent this morning out of Illinois.
		Earl is next out of Reading, California.
		Good morning.
		What does MAGA mean to you?
unidentified		It means we're the party of common sense.
		I, too, am a Vietnam vet, volunteer.
		I just have two points that drive me crazy on this C-SPAN that I hear people low-level lib voters.
		One of them is Trump's a failure of business because he had two bankruptcies in Atlantic City in 2008 when the whole country was having bankruptcies.
		So two of his LLCs bankrupt out of 100, or six of them out of 100.
		He's still 94%.
		That makes him a business genius out of 100 LLCs.
		They don't understand that you insulate a company.
		There's another point that drives me nuts.
		He's a felon.
		He's a felon.
		Well, you weaponize the entire system.
		They had five different legal actions from five parts of the country trying to make him a felon.
		One of them suck, sort of.
		Anyway, so, you know, you look at the situation, you think, what are you people trying to sell us?
		We're not buying it no more.
		Sorry.
		God bless America, John.
		Thank you for letting me speak my piece.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Earl in California.
		Kathy in Englewood, Florida, Republican.
		We're talking to Republicans only in this first half hour.
		Kathy, what does MAGA mean to you?
unidentified		Well, it started back when Trump first ran for office.
		It meant because the country was in a turmoil under Obama.
		I mean, there was no jobs, no work, no nothing.
		So then Trump came out with his mega movement, Make America Great Again, which is like bring the jobs back, get people working, which he did.
		Because his second year in office, we were able to buy a house, two cars.
		Here's an example.
		I took my daughter who had graduated under Obama, and I took her to college.
		All these old people were getting out of their cars.
		I'm like, what is going on here?
		She was a community college.
		I'm like, what the hell is going on here?
		Why is all these old people?
		I thought it would be all high school kids getting out.
		And come to find out they're all living off of grants and all that crap.
		So now they're all in debt, and now they want a debt forgiveness.
		That's why Bernie gets to big crowds because he's all like, I'm going to forgive your school debt that they all accumulated under Obama.
		So, yeah.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Kathy, how soon would you say you joined the MAGA movement?
unidentified		Back when Trump first ran for office in 2016.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		At what point was it?
		What convinced you?
		Do you remember?
unidentified		Obama.
		He was terrible.
		The worst eight years of our lives was under Obama.
		My husband is a construction worker, and he had to go drive truck because there was no jobs.
		His brother, the same.
		It was terrible.
		It was the worst eight years of our lives.
		And then Trump took office within two years.
		Everybody was back working again.
		Thank God we didn't go into college debt.
		He has a stepson that is $80,000 in debt because he was trying to live off the government and college loans.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kathy in Englewood, Florida.
		Brian is in New York.
		Good morning, Republican.
		What is MAGA Media?
unidentified		Yes.
		Yes, good morning, C-SPAM.
		I'm 88 years of age.
		I grew up from 1937, born and raised in New York City.
		The reason I can't hear you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I'm listening to you, Brian.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The reason what?
unidentified		The reason why I changed from a Democratic many years ago.
		If you look at what's happened in this country, and I pay attention and I think about what is happening, this country has gone downhill to a degree that it's almost impossible for a guy my age to understand.
		Everything is worse now, and every rotten thing that's happened in America in the last 50 years can be laid on the doorstep of a sick ideology that's euphemistically called liberalism, but there's nothing liberal about it.
		It has destroyed our culture.
		It has destroyed our patriotism.
		It has now got to a point where we have advocating the sickness of this country in the trans movement, which is an ideology that preaches the mutilation of children.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Brian, how would you feel about the direction of this country from 2016 to 2020 during the first Trump administration?
unidentified		During the previous administration, during Trump's administration?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I felt he was doing a good job, but I think he's doing a much better.
		I see your lips moving, but I don't hear you.
		Anyway, look, Trump is doing a great job.
		The people that hate him are the same, you know, Democrats hate successful people now more than the communists hate successful people.
		So this is what we've come to.
		We are divided between the left and the right.
		And if you look at the decay of this country, it is all coming from the left, the Democratic Party.
		I used to be a Democrat.
		They lost their way a long time ago.
		God bless Trump.
		God bless this country.
		And I pray that people will start to recognize, stop the hate for God's sake.
		This is not, this is a good man.
		He loves the country.
		He's doing a good job.
		And I'm with him 100%.
		Thank you, C-SPAN.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Brian in New York.
		Here's a few of your comments from social media to this question.
		What does it mean to be MAGA?
		And Brick says it's an attempt to right a sinking ship.
		The federal government is to promote the general welfare of the citizenry, not provide it.
		There's much more, but let's just start there.
		Bradley saying MAGA means to be one that stands for the American dream, working hard and earning your keep to be able to afford life's amenities, standing for an equal rule of law and understanding that the Constitution is our document of which laws are made and abided by, always putting the American citizen first.
		And this is Peggy writing, We're the people that don't want our children to attend Drag Queen Hour.
		A few comments.
		We're asking Republicans only what it means to be MAGA.
		Again, having this conversation in the wake of this new poll showing an increasing number of Americans identify with the MAGA movement that's, of course, driven by Republicans.
		Today, more than 70% of Republicans identify with the MAGA movement.
		And so we're asking them, what does it mean?
		Give us a call, 202-748-8000 if you're a Republican in the Eastern or Central time zone.
		202-748-8001 if you're a Republican in the Mountain and Pacific time zone.
		As you're calling in, it was a recent interview with the Daily Signal that White House Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt was asked about her support of President Trump about the MAGA movement.
		Here's a portion.
		Here's what she had to say.
unidentified		Did you have a moment where you realized that you were MAGA?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Because I feel like that's a conversion moment, don't you?
unidentified		I know it is.
karoline leavitt ▲ ● ▼		So I actually wrote an editorial in the school newspaper when I was in college, and the title of it was Why Donald Trump Just Keeps On Winning.
unidentified		And this was when he was in that 15 or 17 person primary.
unidentified		A lot of people were doubting him at the time.
karoline leavitt ▲ ● ▼		But I believe his, particularly his economic message, really resonated with me.
unidentified		I grew up in a middle-class blue-collar family of small business owners.
		My parents, neither of them went to college.
		And so I watched them work very hard for everything that they earned for my brothers and me.
karoline leavitt ▲ ● ▼		And growing up in that environment informed, I think, my perspective of the world and hearing the president really speak for the forgotten man and woman, right?
karoline leavitt ▲ ● ▼		The American worker, which continues to be his message to this very day, really resonated with me and my family.
unidentified		And I wrote about it back then.
karoline leavitt ▲ ● ▼		And so I think from the very beginning, I realized that this was an outsider, not a politician, a businessman, like the people I grew up with who see the world in a very common sense way.
unidentified		And that's how I knew I was a supporter of President Trump.
unidentified		How you knew you were MAGA?
nicole kobie ▲ ● ▼		I was MAGA.
unidentified		IntroMAGA.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Carolyn Levitt, that was an interview late last month with the news outlet, the Daily Signal, asking you to call in this morning.
		Republicans only, what does it mean to be MAGA?
		This is John in Portland, Connecticut.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, sir.
		How are you?
		Doing well.
		First out, I'd say I'm not really labeling myself as MAGA.
		I feel I'm just a Republican, an American, fighting for the best for our country.
		So I don't like labels.
		We shouldn't be labeling each other.
		When I hear the word MAGA, it's like right now it seems derogatory when I hear it from the left.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So what does it mean, John?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And why do you think a growing number of Republicans do identify with that label?
unidentified		I didn't grow up a Republican.
		I grew up a Democrat.
		I'm a veteran.
		I grew very proud of this country.
		I went in 71, ready to serve in Vietnam.
		And I just want what's best for this country.
		Whether it's even if there was a great Democratic people right now to run this country and solve the problems in this country, I'd be all in on it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's John in Connecticut.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Does anybody come to mind for you, John?
unidentified		Right now, and where?
		The Democratic Well, hard to say.
		Well, you know, when everyone has their doubts about John Fetterman, I give Mr. Fetterman a thumbs up right now.
		I like the man.
		I like his opinion.
		I think he's got a lot going for him.
		And, you know, there's a lot to think about about that question.
		But yeah, I like Mr. Fetterman.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll let Democrats think about that question.
		That's the question we're going to ask Democrats only in about 15 minutes here.
		Who's the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
		But for the next 15 minutes, we'll stick with Republicans only.
		What does it mean to be MAGA?
		This is Kurt out of New Jersey, Browns Mill, New Jersey.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		This is a perfect question for me.
		I was raised Democrat, you know, violent.
		Give me a brick.
		I'll throw it.
		I don't know why.
		And I found a woman I married that was Republican.
		And I said, well, I can't hate this woman.
		So I started looking at the other sides.
		And I became, I started, you know, and I'm calling MAGA the first of second, I guess you would call it the third party because the Republicans persuaded me to go independent at some point because they had no backbone and they were stabbing Trump in the back.
		And Hillary was a liar.
		And so I was scared from my own IRS audits that I was labeled a Republican.
		But today I call it on a Republican line.
		I think I'm going to have to grow.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Kurt, you see Republican as something separate than MAGA.
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's the difference?
unidentified		Well, Donald Trump is taking shots from both sides.
		You can't separate the Democrats and the Republican old school party.
		They're one in the same.
		And Trump is coming in and pissing both sides off.
		So I consider MAGA the first third party.
		And with that said, I guess I'm Republican.
		And I just hope he survives his second term.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Kurt, can you be MAGA and have a disagreement with Donald Trump on any issue?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		Like I said, I've been up, I was raised Democrat, so I do have that fight in me.
		I joke, I'm worse than a Republican.
		I used to be a Democrat.
		So I got fight in me.
		I've got defiance in me.
		And I just love seeing a fighter and not a liar.
		I don't think Donald Trump lies.
		He plays politics well, but he's not a liar.
		And that is worth a vote.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kurt in New Jersey to Picayune, Mississippi.
		This is Gina.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, John.
		What I think it means to be a MAGA is to, first of all, have respect for our great country and for the men and women who've died over all these 200 and almost 50 years to create this country and just respect for anything to do with it.
		The Democrats and their hate for Donald Trump, along with the media who propagandize it every day, is what has happened to this country.
		And it's also why Donald J. Trump is in office right now.
		You can blame the media and the Democrats for their lives and their absolute hate of one man who is just trying to make this country better.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Gina, do you remember when you became, do you remember when you became MAGA, when you started identifying with that movement?
unidentified		I became MAGA because I watch politics very closely for at least 25 years.
		And I watch this show every day when I wake up in the morning.
		And I have seen what happened on this very show of the lies, the absolute lies that have been told on Donald Trump and have been allowed to go out on the airways by Washington Journal.
		And it is a show that I really love.
		And I think, you know, people do not like unfairness.
		And, you know, people will start rallying behind something that they think has unfair, is unfair.
		I believe Donald Trump.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		When do you remember saying, I'm MAGA?
		That's what I identify with.
		Was there a moment for you?
unidentified		Well, I don't know if you could say MAGA, but I became a Republican when Bill Clinton did what he did with Monica Lewinsky in the Oval Office, which I respected as, you know, very much.
		It was, it's a very respect, you know, place in our government that should be respected.
		And that is when I turned from being a Democrat, which my grandparents were, to a Republican, and they were not happy.
		But I tell you what, if the truth is not, if it doesn't start being told on the airways in our country, we're going under.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Gina in Mississippi to Sewell, New Jersey.
		This is Sal.
		Good morning.
		Thanks for waiting.
unidentified		Hey, good morning, everybody.
		Yeah, I just, I'm 66 years old, and I remember going to school, even public school, pledge allegiance and all important things to represent our country.
		And everybody proud to be America, even if he was poor growing up like me, having no money.
		He just loved your country.
		And I don't know what's happening.
		We've got all these different ideology people come here.
		They don't love America.
		I don't know why they come here.
		For what reason?
		They go to college here and everything, and they don't even love the country.
		And a lot of the Democrats, they want these people here that don't appreciate the country.
		And even the Democrat politicians don't seem like they love our country because they favor everybody else instead of American people first.
		I don't understand that kind of thinking.
		It just doesn't make sense to me.
		I turned MAGA as soon as I heard the words President Trump's saying, America first.
		Wants us to be better.
		He wants us to be respected, strong, help the American people survive financially.
		And he came to them with that MAGA hat.
		And I love the guy.
		I mean, everything he does is for America.
		I mean, and these people that make all this money here, they should stand up for our country, but they don't.
		They put us down.
		They can never be millionaires.
		All these athletes and politicians, all this money they make.
		They were in another country.
		They would get nothing.
		They would never survive.
		So I don't understand it, John.
		The schools, the colleges, they all teach this type of, you know, don't stand for American values.
		I don't understand.
		Why are you here then?
		If you don't like the way America is, what are you here for?
		To me, it doesn't make any sense.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Sal in Sewell, New Jersey, talking about Donald Trump speaking about what makes America great.
		He talked about the MAGA movement during the inauguration ceremonies back in January.
		Here's about a minute from one of those events.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		This is the greatest political movement in American history.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		And 75 days ago, we achieved the most epic political victory our country has ever seen.
unidentified		That's what they say.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We won the popular vote for the first time of any Republican in many, many years.
unidentified		We swept all seven swing states by big numbers.
		We won Pennsylvania.
		We won Georgia.
		We won North Carolina.
		We won Michigan.
		We won Wisconsin.
		We won Arizona.
		We won Nevada.
		We won them all by historic margins.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		And we won the great state of Florida by 13 points.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		And a record that will never be broken, all 50 states shifted toward the Republican Party the first time that that's ever happened.
unidentified		All 50 states.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We won the largest number of African American voters in Republican Party history.
unidentified		We won more Hispanic American votes than any Republican has ever gotten before by a lot.
unidentified		And we won Latino men and women.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		And on top of that, youth, men, women, urban, suburban, rural, and people from everywhere in between are joining us in record numbers.
unidentified		We've never had anything like this.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		President Trump, close to 100 days ago, we're coming up on the first 100 days of the second Trump administration and asking you this morning, Republicans only, what does it mean to be MAGA?
		This is Kelly in Denison, Ohio.
		Good morning.
		Thanks for waiting.
unidentified		Hey, John, can you hear me?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I can hear you.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		Hey, on October the 7th of last year, I started calling back in.
		How many days has it been, John?
		It's going up on 600 from one of our guys.
		But the reason I started coming back in October the 7th was because I believe we got our free speech back.
		I was scared that we were losing our free speech.
		Whenever Trump got too social and then X was bought by Musk, I thought we were going to lose our gentleman.
		And when I started feeling that Trump was going to win the election, I started calling back in because it got so bad, even on CD.
		You guys will not do a good thing or about Trump.
		It's 90% negative.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Kelly, what does MAGA mean?
unidentified		Excuse me?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What does MAGA mean?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Question: We're asking this morning.
unidentified		It means whenever he first ran in 2016, my best friend was.
		I'm sorry, John.
		I gotta go.
		I'm sorry.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kelly at Ohio taking care of his dog.
		This is Eddie in Massachusetts.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Yes.
		I hear in Millbury, Massachusetts.
		And guess what?
		We don't mill anymore.
		The factories are empty.
		They're just storage.
		Many converted to senior citizens.
		But the reason is that 20 years ago, my town tax was $3,000 a year.
		Now it's $8,000 a year.
		It's government, it's teachers, it's pensions.
		We don't make anything.
		That's the problem.
		Kids are getting out of high school.
		They can't afford to go to college.
		Expenses are too much.
		And they can't make anything either because of taxes.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Eddie, what does MAGA mean?
unidentified		Make, make, make America great again.
		That's what it is.
		We don't make anything.
		Smitten Weston just left Springfield, Massachusetts a year ago.
		The taxes are too much.
		Town taxes.
		They can't afford to pay their employees the amount of money because of town taxes, state income taxes.
		Massachusetts is called Masses Taxes juices.
		Same with New York.
		They lost damn industry also.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Got your point.
		That's Eddie in Massachusetts.
		One more call in this Republicans only segment.
		We're asking simply, what does it mean to be MAGA?
		This is Walter, Butler, Indiana.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		MAGA to me means this.
		We have secure borders that we know who's coming in and out of our country.
		Our educational system is the number one educational system in the world with science, mathematics, biology, the greatest students, the greatest education, the greatest industrial revolution where our factories are brimming with American workers taking American materials and turning it into American products, where people stand proudly for the American flag,
		where your cities and your homes are safe, where you don't have to worry about criminals, where there is justice restored to America.
		And that, I've been MAGA my whole life.
		It is not a party.
		It is not Republican.
		It is not Democrat.
		I served in the military and I pledge allegiance to this flag in the United States of America.
		I've always been a patriotic, loving country.
		And it's not about hate.
		It's about loving your family.
		Think of our country as a home.
		You want the home secured.
		You want fresh, clean water.
		You want good food.
		You want your children to be educated.
		You want to feel safe when they go out to play in the schoolyard or down the street where there's a loving family.
		He loves our country and it's the true thing of loving our country.
		And that's what it is.
		Nothing else but that.
		And I am so proud to be an American again.
		It makes my heart feel like somebody is fighting for us.
		Men can be men.
		Women can be women.
		If you don't love the country, that's your right not to love the country, but you're not going to tear it down.
		And it's as simple as that.
		And I hope you have a good day and God bless Donald Trump in the United States of America.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Walter in Butler, Indiana.
		Our last call in this Republicans-only portion of this first hour.
		Want to turn the lines now over to Democrats only.
		Second half hour here of this opening segment.
		We're asking Democrats right now, who's the leader of the Democratic Party?
		A simple question heading into the midterm elections in 2026.
		Who's the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
		Democrats in the Eastern or Central time zones, here's the number to call, 202-748-8000.
		Democrats in the Mountain or Pacific time zones, it's 202-748-8001.
		This question getting some attention in a recent interview on CNN with George Clooney, Democratic donor and activist, and was in an interview with CNN Jake Tapper earlier this week.
		The New York Post wrote about that interview.
		Here's what they said.
		Oscar-winning actor George Clooney argued that Maryland Governor Wes Moore is separating himself from the PAC as a potential Democratic 2028 presidential contender.
		He's the one person in particular that I think is spectacular, Clooney told Jake Tapper in an interview on Wednesday.
		The Gravity Star praised also Democratic governors Andy Bashir and Gretchen Whitmer of Kentucky and Michigan, respectively, before making the case for the governor of the free state, Wes Moore.
		That interview from CNN.
		Asking you this morning, Democrats only, who's the leader of the Democratic Party?
		You can talk about any Democrat right now in the Congress, in the states, in your local community.
		Let us know.
		It's 202-748-8000 for Democrats in the Eastern or Central time zone.
		202-748-8001 for Democrats in the Mountain or Pacific time zone.
		One Democrat getting a lot of attention right now as well is Corey Booker of New Jersey, the senator giving that more than 24-hour address on the Senate floor, standing up to Donald Trump's policies in the United States Senate, literally standing up for a day and more, some 25 hours is what it ended up turning out to.
		He was on a recent interview with Meet the Press on NBC.
		He was talking about the future of the Democratic Party.
		This is Corey Booker.
unidentified		Do you think Vice President Harris should run again?
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		You know, I know Vice President Harris.
		I don't think she's concerning herself with 2028.
		I think she's concerning herself, like most Americans right now, is why do I have a president that's attacking due process?
		Why do you see that?
unidentified		Do you think she should run again?
		Do you want to see her run again, Senator?
		You supported her.
		Do you want to see her run again?
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		I am literally getting thousands and thousands of phone calls, people stopping me on the streets in crisis right now.
		They're losing jobs.
		They're seeing their costs go up.
		They're worried about their housing.
		Honestly, I don't care about 2028.
cory booker ▲ ● ▼		I care about stopping the hurting of American people right now.
		And if Democrats in general, we should not be concerned about the party's future.
		We should be concerned about people's present, and that's where I'm focused.
unidentified		30 seconds left.
		Very quickly.
		What should the message from Democrats be right now, Senator?
cory booker ▲ ● ▼		We should be focusing on the American people.
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		This is not about party.
		It's not about left or right.
		It's about right or wrong.
		We are in a moral moment right now in our country with attacks on Medicaid in order to give tax cuts to the wealthiest in our country.
		This is not who we are.
		We need to fight, defend American jobs, American costs and economic security, American health care.
cory booker ▲ ● ▼		We are in a real crisis with the bill that the Republicans are pushing and the assaults on the integrity of this country and the constitutional principles.
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		It's time to stand up and fight back against what's happening.
		And this is not just for Democrats.
		It's for Republicans in Congress that whisper to me privately their concerns about what the president's doing.
		This is a moral moment.
		It's time for more and more people to stand up.
unidentified		Senator, yes or no?
kristen welker ▲ ● ▼		Are you considering a run in 2028?
cory booker ▲ ● ▼		I'm focused on today and my reelection in 26.
cory booker ▲ ● ▼		I've already announced to the people of New Jersey I'm hoping they'll allow me to be their senator for another six years.
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		And let's be clear.
		I'm proud of the work that we've done over the last six years.
		There's been no senator that has had a better record of bringing resources back to the state of New Jersey.
cory booker ▲ ● ▼		So I'm focused on the now, working to defend folks, and, God willing, being reelected in 2026.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Corey Booker from Sunday on Meet the Press, asking Democrats only who's the leader of the Democratic Party right now.
		Here's one of your comments from social media.
		Heather writing in, I do like Corey Booker and Senator Tammy Duckworth as well.
		Joe, here in Washington, D.C., a Democrat, who's the leader of the Democratic Party?
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		I'm originally from New Jersey.
		I like Corey Booker a lot.
		I think he's a great representative of the state.
		It is a little disheartening, though, to hear him say that he's not focused on the future right now as far as if he's running, who he thinks should run.
		Because I think that the reason why the Democrats lost in this last election is because we didn't have a clear leader, right?
		And I'm sitting here kind of struggling to come up with a name, a person who I think could be the person that beats Donald Trump if he is to, whether or not he runs in 2028.
		Obviously, we're in unprecedented times.
		I mean, the names that kind of come to mind right now, the people who I think are speaking to, at least my generation, I'm 29, I'm a millennial, just on the kind of custom Gen Z there, are AOC and Bernie Sanders.
		I think that those people are kind of speaking to the voters who maybe didn't vote for Kamala Harris in the last election.
		I did, you know, because I saw the alternative and now we're in this mess.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		But Joe, what do you think about Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez's fight the oligarchy tour that they're on right now?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, that's what everyone's concerned about, right?
		I mean, that's kind of like where all the nihilism of my generation is coming from is that, you know, the people in power, the oligarchs, right, who are running this country, who are buying out the politicians and having them serve their interests alone and not the interests of the working people, that's, you know, the reason people didn't vote for Kamala Harris is because I think that she kind of represented the establishment, right?
		Like she represented the kind of the old guard, which is wild to say, right?
		I mean, because she is very progressive and her policies obviously are, you know, even more left-leaning, I think, than Joe Biden's were.
		But still, I don't think she had enough of a message to young people who have this feeling that their voice actually doesn't matter because the politicians are being bought and paid for by these oligarchs, right?
		By these people that are, you know, those titans of business or whatever in our country.
		So I think that AOC and Bernie Sanders are speaking to that feeling that people have, that feeling that their voice doesn't matter.
		And, you know, do I think that they're going to I mean, we've been burned before, right?
		I mean, especially with Bernie Sanders, you know, that, you know, we had the feeling that maybe he could do it in 2016, and then, you know, it didn't happen.
		And I think a lot of people kind of lost hope after that.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Well, Joe, let me get to a few other Democrats.
		Sandra is waiting in Colorado Springs.
		Good morning.
		Who's the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
unidentified		Good morning.
		I do agree with the prior caller about Corey Booker and about AOC.
		I believe that AOC represents the future of the Democratic Party.
		Her progressive vision is what will lead us forward.
		Teddy Roosevelt even said once upon a time that a great democracy has got to be progressive or it will cease to be a democracy.
		And that's what I have to think.
		That's what I had to say about that part.
		The other thing is, I really wish y'all had asked Republicans instead of what it means to be NAGA.
		Y'all should have asked them what their line in the sand is that Republicans and Trump can cross before they actually get upset and open their eyes and stop what's happening.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Sandra, appreciate the suggestion.
		A few more Democrats waiting.
		This is Adam, Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
		Good morning.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		I agree with some of the prior callers, with some of the names that were brought up, but I would also put out Pete Boutige.
		Do I think he's ready to be the leader of the country?
		Probably not.
		I doubt that the country is ready for him, but I think that he is brilliant.
		He's had a pretty diverse background.
		He's obviously been in local government, federal government, in Biden's cabinet.
		And he has some really dynamic views on policy.
		And I also think that he could, you know, he could really debate Trump and the Trump base.
		So, Pete, run for president.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Adam, in the Keystone State, out to the Golden State.
		This is Edric in Trula Vista.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		Are my levels okay?
		Because I'm going to bring a little bit of AM fire from the Golden State.
		And I'm a legitimate person.
		I'm mid-50s.
		Okay, that's Generation X.
		So I'm not a millennial like some of the people, but I want to really just have a little moment in the universe and let you guys know I'm an African-American, gay man.
		It's okay.
		California represents that.
		So now the question at hand, that's a quick little background for me.
		The question at hand.
		Okay.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Question at hand is who is the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
unidentified		There we go.
		There we go.
		Because I got you on mute.
		The Democratic leader, the heat is all Bernie and AOC.
		However, I want to point this out very simply.
		Bernie Sanders, we love Bernie.
		The term would be TikTok because I just saw Biden and I'm just aligned.
		Bernie's bringing the fire, but we need young energy, like one of your female caller did, explaining the AOC.
		Now, I'm going to say I was trying to originally, based on where I'm located, right here next to the border, by the way.
		But when we get into our neighbors to the South, there's always been a lot of discrimination against that and Kamala Harris.
		California has known about the rise of Kamala Harris for the last 10 years.
		That's one point.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Edric, do you think Kamala Harris should win again?
unidentified		No, no, no.
		I was going to kind of lean in a gabbin because America has shown with this last election, I'm part of the Ford, is it 48.5 or whatever?
		It wasn't enough to get her past it, but she's a dignified woman.
		I'm sick of the Kamala bashing, but I'm not going to get into that because I hear that all, you know, I watched The View in the morning.
		You know, again, I'm a gay male.
		I'm single, by the way.
		And the point is, a lot of us aren't pro-creating in this weird economy.
		Now, we're talking about the contenders.
		Notice I didn't say the keyword.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You've named several contenders, including Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, along with several other of our Democratic callers in this first 10 minutes or so in this segment.
		We mentioned she's been on the Fight the Oligarchy tour with Bernie Sanders.
		Here's about a minute and a half from late last month of AOC.
unidentified		What many people want to smear as radical, I believe, is common sense.
		I believe in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, when a person gets sick, they shouldn't go bankrupt.
		Common sense.
		I believe that a minimum wage should cover the minimum cost to live.
		Common sense.
		I believe that homes are not slot machines for investors and big banks to extort working families out of every last dollar that they have.
		Your government should fight to help you keep an affordable roof over your head.
		And finally, I believe that we must get big money out of politics and make clear that our country is not the same.
		is why I don't and never will take money from industry lobbyists or corporations.
		Right-wing media will thank you.
		Thank you.
		Now, Fox News and the right wing, thank you guys.
		But Fox News and the right wing will have you believe that these American values are something out of the communist manifesto.
		That we believe these things because we went to some fancy school and read them in a book somewhere.
		But I can tell you, I don't believe in health care, labor, and human dignity because I'm an extremist.
		I believe these things because I was a waitress.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, that was last month from the Fight Oligarchy tour with Bernie Sanders, taking your phone calls from Democrats only in this next 15 minutes as we continue to ask who is the leader of the Democratic Party right now.
		This is Sandra in Waynesboro, Virginia.
		Good morning.
		What do you think?
unidentified		Good morning.
		I like the looks of the governor of Pennsylvania, and I liked Corey Booker.
		I like the governor of Kentucky as a good talker, good, good-looking young man.
		Looks like he could do it.
		I'll tell you, John, I am of the generation old.
		I'm 81 years old, and I have seen this country go through some horrific times when we had to stop and get gasoline every exit on the Ohio turnpike when we left seminary and went to Pennsylvania to pastor because they would only sell five gallons to you at a time because there was no gasoline because the truckers were all on strike.
		And I've seen us go through when my husband said, well, as long as we can keep groceries on the table, I guess we'll be okay.
		That was back in the 70s.
		I've seen times when veterans were slurred on the streets.
		And in Houston, where I grew up, there was even a veteran in a wheelchair turned over in his wheelchair.
		I've seen some awful things, but I have never seen a time like we're in right now that I believe is more critical for Americans to stand up and say, what is the value of being an American?
		The value of freedom.
		How much do we value our freedom and how much do we value this man instead?
		I think we need somebody who can stand up strong and tall.
		And I think AOC needs to stay in the House or the Senate, wherever she can be to fight for us in those bodies.
		And we need somebody in the presidency who has a head on his shoulders.
		And if Kamala would run again, I would campaign for her.
		I think she's a smart lady and has plenty of experience.
		I love the senator from Minnesota, but I want her to stay in the Senate and keep fighting for all the things that she fights for.
		I would vote for the guy who is the governor who ran for vice president with Kamala.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tim Walsh.
unidentified		I would vote for him again.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Sandra, you started by mentioning a different governor, Josh Shapiro.
		Just some news on that front from the arson at the governor's mansion, a story that we've been hearing about over the past couple of days.
		The man charged with setting that fire to the Pennsylvania governor's mansion said he did so in defense of Palestine.
		This is the story from the Wall Street Journal.
		The suspect, Cody Ballmer, called 911 on Sunday, the day of the attack, said he needed Governor Josh Shapiro, a Jewish Democrat, to know that he, quote, will not take part in his plans for what he wants to do to the Palestinian people.
		Pennsylvania State Police wrote in an affidavit released yesterday.
		It couldn't be determined exactly what the suspect was referring to.
		Ballmer broke into the governor's residence while the Shapiros were asleep on the first night of the Jewish holiday of Passover and set several fires using Molotov cocktails there and a picture of the arrest going along with the story.
		This is Joe in Carrollton, Kentucky.
		Joe, good morning to you in the Bluegrass State.
		Who do you think is the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
unidentified		Well, I really don't know.
		I think we've got a lot of good candidates out there, but in my opinion, I think we do a better job as a presidentials when we have governors of states.
		And we have a lot of good governors right now, but we're kind of like wandering in the wilderness right now.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who's the best Democratic governor right now, Joe?
unidentified		It is Andy Bashir.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Why is it Andy Bashir in your home state of Kentucky?
unidentified		He has done an excellent job.
		We've had numerous natural disasters.
		He's brought a lot.
		He's built a relationship with the people of Kentucky during COVID, during the natural disasters on both ends.
		He's very concerned about the people of his Commonwealth.
		And I just think that the governors, the governor of Pennsylvania, the governor of Michigan, the governors run their own little nations.
		And I think right now that's the best pick.
		And I kind of support Andy.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Joe, thanks for the call.
unidentified		My opinion.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		From Andy Bashir's home state of Kentucky, this is Vivian in Tennessee, Collierville.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How's everyone doing?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Doing well, Vivian.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who's the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
unidentified		Right now, at first I was in with Hurricane Jeffries, but he's not speaking up for us.
		I would like Tim Waltz, either Jasmine Crockett.
		They are outspoken.
		I would like that team.
		I would like for them to run for president and vice president.
		They spoke out the truth, and the American people didn't listen.
		That man got in there and lying with he wasn't going to touch Social Security, Medicare, and insurance for the people.
		He got into everything that Trump said he wasn't going to do.
		He did it.
		He's still doing it.
		He's only for the rich.
		And anytime this country put up convicted felony up there with 34 felonies and a rape, what kind of countries is here?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Vivian, what more do you want to see from Hakeem Jeffries?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You say he's not doing enough?
unidentified		He's not.
		He's not getting up there speaking enough.
		Just like Trump is getting out there lying every day.
		We got the congresspeople, Republicans, and Republicans, Seneca out there backing this man.
		And, sir, deep in their heart, we all saw what they did with the insurrection.
		That man, Pardon those people, who got up in there and beat up policemen, and the congressman's people was running and ducking Republicans, too, was running.
		We all saw this.
		And you're going to put a rapist up there?
		The man didn't pay his bills and went bankruptcy.
		I'm going to tell you something.
		Give me a few more minutes.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Well, Vivian, we've got a lot of calls waiting.
		This is Barbara in the Bay State in Oak Bluffs.
		Barbara, go ahead.
unidentified		Hi.
		I'm calling in with one of my usual outside-the-box suggestions, which is this, that what the Democrats need to do in their various locations, the senators, the House, the governors, et cetera, is to work as a group, as blocks.
		I know you're asking who is a singular individual I'd like to see at the front of the parade right now, but what we have got in our Democratic Party is diversity because of where, because of the way the country is constructed.
		So, for example, today, a congressman is down in El Salvador.
		Hopefully, more are going to be coming and joining him.
		And they're going to be a block.
		When you see them behind Hakeem Jeffries giving a press conference, they're a block.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Barbara, doesn't somebody need to be at the front of the parade, though, as Democrats head into 2028?
unidentified		Yes, eventually, maybe, but just hear me out here, okay?
		There's a time and a place for everything.
		We have a very deep bench.
		We have an excellent group of people.
		And frankly, any one of 10 people I could name, I would strongly back.
		And I could make up a president and vice president ticket.
		But we want the power of the group of congressmen, of senators, of governors, of lieutenant governors, empowering each other in the face of where we are now.
		What are we?
		18 months from the 26th, 2020?
		Okay, you get what I'm saying.
		Thank you very much.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Barbara in Massachusetts back to Kentucky.
		This is Carl in Louisville.
		Good morning.
		Who's the leader of the Democratic Party right now as we approach 100 days of the second Trump administration?
unidentified		You could not have asked a harder question right now.
		It's very, I don't know.
		I don't know.
		I think we can probably eliminate everybody in the House of Representatives, Democrats, although I would love to see someone step out from there who could step up and be recognized because a lot of people just don't know their names.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Carl, one of those folks is somebody that several callers before you on the Democrats line has pointed out, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
unidentified		Yeah, and I just looked up.
		She is the right age.
		I mean, you have to meet these certain thresholds to run for president if that's what they're going to do.
		But I think there's a wild card out there somewhere.
		I don't know if you watched the interview with Stephen Smith from ESPN with what's his name at 9 o'clock on Fox.
		But I don't know if he could be an actual leader.
		I think that might be more show biz.
		But I think there's a wild card out there.
		I do like Josh Shapiro, Andy Bashir, but these are just known names.
		Who I would really like to see would probably not happen is Amy Klobuchar.
		I campaigned for her in Kentucky during her first attempt at presidency.
		The only problem was nobody knew who she was.
		But right now, it's tough.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Carl, you mentioned show business.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is it part show business to be the leader of a political party right now?
unidentified		You got to be good on camera.
		I mean, yeah, I think it's part of it.
		You've got to be able to perform.
		You got to get people's attention.
		And I believe that's Trump's superpower.
		He does get people's attention.
		So we need someone to step out, make some noise.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Carl in Kentucky.
		About five minutes left in this opening segment.
		Five minutes left, ask Democrats only here.
		Who's the leader of your party right now?
		This is John in Crystal Lake, Illinois.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		I would say that we don't have a very strong leader in the Democratic Party right now.
		If I had to pick someone who I would like to see as the leader, it would definitely be the Bernie Sanders and AOC route.
		People that we can just take off the list completely is anyone who's taking APAC money still at this moment.
		Well, Israel's committing a genocide.
		You can't do that.
		So if you're taking APAC money, I don't even want you name on a Democratic ticket.
		So there's that.
		So I think AOC probably has the most enthusiasm behind her.
		And if she ends up on the ticket, you know, I'd roll with her.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Nelson, Upper Marlboro, Maryland.
		Good morning.
		You are next.
unidentified		Hey, good morning, Pedro, and thank you for taking my call.
		I think the leader of the Democratic Party right now is Josh Shapiro.
		It's about time we embrace the notion that we need a strong leader.
		We need somebody who can win.
		Democrats keep talking about AOC and all these other people.
		They are not going to win.
		We've choked in two elections, the one against Clinton, and then Clinton against Trump, and then Camelot against Trump.
		We need to stop picking candidates that are perceived as weak.
		We need strong candidates who are going to win.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's the only thing that makes Josh Shapiro a strong candidate.
unidentified		Well, based on his record, I mean, he has some baggage due to his ties with Israel.
		But based on his record in Pennsylvania, we need to always win Pennsylvania.
		It's a fact.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Nelson, yeah, go ahead.
		You seem to be implying that Donald Trump is going to violate the Constitution and run for a third term.
		You think that's going to happen?
unidentified		No, I don't think that will happen.
		But I think the person who's going to run is JD Vance.
		And JD Vance is going to continue with the entire Trump MAGA movement.
		He is Trump 2.0.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So do you think he can carry that movement like Donald Trump?
unidentified		Well, I mean, Trump is not going anywhere.
		He's going to be behind the scenes still calling the shots.
		And JD Vance is going to be the point person.
		And you're going to see Susie Wiles and all the entire Trump politician rally behind him.
		So we have a fight that the Democrats need to folks like Sakeem Jeffries.
		They talk like this is some joke and they keep wearing Tanny Shoes.
bart in chicago ▲ ● ▼		No, it's a war against the Republicans and they need to get up and stop fighting for the Democratic Party and stop being all weak.
unidentified		And that's why we always choke in elections.
unidentified		We have Tim Walz, great guy, but he is not a general election candidate.
bart in chicago ▲ ● ▼		So yeah, I think we need to start thinking of winning and stop talking about like now we're falling on a trap.
unidentified		They're going to Salvador to fight for one person.
		I mean, that's a Republican trap for them to fall in it.
		They're not supposed to be doing all this crap.
		We should focus on taxing the reach and our main talking points.
		And that's what I believe the Democratic Party should do.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Nelson in Maryland.
		Time for one more call here.
		This is Jasper in Chicago.
		Thanks for waiting.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		How's it going, John?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Doing well.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Got about a minute and a half.
unidentified		Okay, the person who brought in, who introduced Kamala Harris.
		Clearly, the person who should have ran to beat Donald Trump, Joshua Perrell.
		He's our new leader.
		And I'm telling you, he's going to be the next president.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What do you predict?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What do you like about him?
unidentified		He can motivate the crowd more than Kamala Harris can ever do.
		Anyone right now, even Corey Booker, he can motivate the crowd right now.
		I mean, you hear him speak.
		If you watch that crowd, you would know that he is the next president of the United States.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Jasper in Illinois, our last caller in this first segment of the Washington Journal.
		Stick around, though, plenty more to talk about this morning, including up next a conversation with Andre Martinez-Fernandez of the Heritage Foundation about the Trump administration's deportation policies, plans along the U.S.-Mexico border.
		And later, we'll be joined by Andre Perry of the Brookings Institution to talk about his new book on closing the racial wealth gap.
		Stick around.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		High schoolers, are you planning to take the Advanced Placement U.S. History exam on May 9th?
		Then join American History TV Saturday at 7 p.m. Eastern as high school history teacher Matthew Ellington and Southern Illinois University History Professor Jason Stacey, co-authors of Fabric of a Nation, a history with skills and sources for the AP U.S. History course, talk about the exam.
		They'll explain how this year's exam is structured and provide strategies for answering questions and analyzing historical documents.
		Listen in on our discussion and be sure to take notes on the High School Advanced Placement U.S. History Exam 2025, Saturday at 7 p.m. Eastern on American History TV on C-SPAN 2.
		Sunday night on C-SPAN's Q&A.
		Technology reporter Nicole Kobe, author of The Long History of the Future, talks about how technology evolves and discusses why many predicted technologies, including driverless and flying cars, smart cities, hyperloops, and autonomous robots, haven't become a reality.
nicole kobie ▲ ● ▼		If you've ever tried to build anything, you know, whether it's like an IKEA cabinet or, you know, something a little bit more complicated than that that doesn't come with instructions, it's very difficult to build something.
		So engineers who are working on these kinds of problems, you know, whether it's driverless cars or flying cars or, I don't know, even sillier ideas like Hyperloop, they're taking science that we know works and they're applying it to the real world, to phys, you know, to a physical object.
		And then they're trying to build that.
		And it's kind of in the details where things start to fall down a bit.
		It's kind of in, you know, how you actually make it happen, the materials you choose, the business model, all of that can just kind of take something that sort of works in the lab or works in an academic paper and just make it completely fall apart, even though people have spent maybe 80 years on an idea.
unidentified		Technology reporter Nicole Kobe, Sunday night at 8 Eastern on C-SPAN's QA.
		You can listen to QA in all of our podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts or in our free C-SPAN Now app.
		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		A conversation now on Latin America and the southern border.
		Our guest is Andres Martinez-Fernandez.
		He serves as senior policy analyst for Latin America at the Heritage Foundation.
		I want to first get your assessment of this week's meeting back on Monday between President Trump and President Bukele of El Salvador in the Oval Office.
		What was your takeaway from that meeting and the conversation they had in front of the media on Monday?
unidentified		Well, I think that one of the messages that President Trump was sending just by having the meeting is that the United States under his administration is going to recognize governments in Latin America and beyond that are willing to work proactively with the United States towards shared interests.
		And there are a lot of shared interests that we have within our hemisphere with governments in our hemisphere.
		On the migration front, we have that being the central issue, I think, or one of them with President Bukele's cooperation on repatriation or deportation of migrants, but also on the security front as far as confronting criminal organizations in our hemisphere.
		All these things are generating instability and violence, not just for the United States, but for many countries in Latin America.
		And President Bukele seems to not only recognize that, but recognizes the need to take forward-leaning action in that front in cooperation with the United States.
		I think that's one of the reasons, one of the core reasons, why President Trump invited him to the White House and had this meeting to engage with a proactive, pro-U.S. leader.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is President Bukele President Trump's closest ally in Latin America right now?
unidentified		He's probably up there.
unidentified		I think there's probably a competition for that position.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who else is in that competition?
unidentified		President Millay also has had a lot of direct engagement with President Trump.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		President Millay?
unidentified		Millay in Argentina, yes, who was actually, I believe, the first foreign leader to meet with President Trump after his election.
		He flew up to Mar-a-Lago, and there's a lot of alignment between President Millay and President Trump as well.
		And so I think that there's a good relationship there.
		More beyond that, there are, I think, a lot of leaders in the region that are looking to proactively engage with the United States.
		We also have elections coming up in several countries.
		So the political landscape could change.
		I tend to think that it's more likely to be shifting in a direction that's more aligned with the United States, just based on regional dynamics and country dynamics for these elections that are coming up.
		But we'll see.
		There's certainly a few willing partners.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me go to the dynamics of what's happening in El Salvador, the cases of Brego Garcia, that Maryland father who was deported.
		And United States senators now going down to El Salvador, seeking to meet with him, to advocate for his release.
		What is your interpretation of what that means for somebody like President Bukele?
		Mixed messages from the administration and then members of the United States Senate coming down?
unidentified		Well, I think for President Bukele, I think he recognizes that the engagement and the foreign policy of the United States is set by the White House.
		And so I'm not sure that he's going to be impacted by mixed messages that maybe are coming from on the Senate, this visit, as you say, by a Maryland senator to El Salvador.
		You know, I think, what do I make of it?
		I think that there is an effort to really make this a political weapon against the administration.
		It's unfortunate.
		I don't think that The folks who in the U.S. Congress and in the media who have really rallied behind this issue really fully understood the realities behind the case.
		I think that there's been a lot of misinformation around that.
		And the reality is that we're having a very important opportunity of engagement between President Trump, President Bukele, with this visit and subsequent engagement. being sidetracked by this controversy, which again, I don't think is based on the reality.
		And we have had a lot of information released in the past 24 hours from the Department of Homeland Security and the Attorney General's office on this individual who was deported and the realities of some of his ties with criminal organizations and his own violent history.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The story you might be referring to, this from Fox News, Marilyn Mann Kilmar Albrego Garcia exposed in police records as violent repeat wife beater.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That was the headline that got a lot of attention yesterday at a Fox News.
unidentified		Yeah, that's right.
		That's right.
		So, I mean, again, the fact that senators, U.S. senators are heading down to a foreign country because of this specific individual, I think is just very misguided and an attempt to politicize an issue in a way that really is counter to U.S. interests.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You were in Latin America last week as this case has continued.
		It was in El Salvador.
		Where'd you go and how much did this case get brought up in your travels?
unidentified		I was down in Ecuador for the elections.
		They had elections this past Sunday for the presidential elections.
		This case didn't come up that much, frankly, in part because of the presidential elections happening there, which really pushed everything aside.
		One of the key things that I took away from that, which we had as the results of the elections in Ecuador, were an overwhelming victory for President Navoa, who is also one of these leaders who has engaged very proactively with the United States, particularly on security.
		He's been president for a couple of years now, and now he's just been elected to a four-year term by a 13-point margin, which is really impressive.
		And again, it shows, I think, the importance and the willingness and desire of leaders in the region to engage with the United States to have that positive focus.
		And I think the Trump administration is very much looking to re-engage with our hemisphere.
		And this visit with President Bukele, Secretary Rubio's multiple trips already to the region, really highlight.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Our guest is Andres Martinez-Fernandez of the Heritage Foundation.
		It's the Atlasson Center for National Security.
		He studies Latin American issues there and is with us for about the next 30 minutes this morning and taking your phone calls on phone lines.
		As usual, Republicans 202-748-8001.
		Democrats 202-748-8000.
		Independents 202-748-8002.
		As folks are calling in on those lines, we're about 100 days into the second Trump administration.
		How would you describe the state of the U.S.-Mexico border and illegal migration to this country right now?
unidentified		Well, obviously, the administration has taken several actions on the border, which I think have had a very clear impact as far as sending a signal to criminal organizations that are smuggling migrants and also migrants themselves that the border is no longer open, which I think the previous administration was really sending the opposite signal for much of the past four years.
		And we've seen that result with a dramatic decline in migrant arrivals to the U.S. border.
		I was in Panama the other week where the Darien Gap between South America and Central America was a super highway of illegal migration just a few months ago.
		Now, what used to be maybe about 10,000 in the space of a month has fallen to 500 crossings with, I believe that was in January or February of this year.
		At our border, I think the arrivals have also declined by 95%, something like that.
		So it really is a successful effort to secure the border, which the president has done using not only the civilian DHS resources, but also the U.S. military resources as a core effort or component in U.S. border security, which I think makes all the sense in the world given the severity of the threats that we face at the U.S. border.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		A headline from the Associated Press, U.S. Army to control land on Mexico border as part of a base where migrants could be detained, according to officials.
		You talk about using the military on the border.
		Concerns in some circles about the militarization of the U.S.-Mexico border.
		Explain what's going on here.
unidentified		Well, so there are several challenges when it comes to the role of the U.S. military at the border, but that's not just the U.S. military, I think, more broadly about enforcement.
		One of them has to do with land and much of which is in private ownership.
		And then there's also a significant amount that's held by the federal government, but not by the U.S. military.
		So from my understanding, this shift or this transfer will enable the U.S. military to have a more direct presence on that federal land, much of which is directly adjacent to the U.S. border with Mexico.
		That enables an important level of not only control of the border, but also visibility, the ability to monitor and detect migrants, but also the trafficking of illicit drugs, which is, of course, a major component of the border crisis that we've been facing for years.
		And so this is an important component of that.
		We've also seen the deployment of other military resources across the U.S.-Mexico border in a similar fashion.
		Again, bolstering the capacity of border patrol agents, which are really have been overwhelmed by the dramatic nature of the border crisis.
		And that has required the support and bolstering of the U.S. military presence in the border.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me get some calls in this segment.
		This is Richard Up First out of Augusta, Georgia, Line for Democrats.
		Good morning.
		You're on with Andres Martinez-Fernandez.
unidentified		Good morning, Mr. Fernandez and Washington Journal.
		Do you believe that due process of law should be at state, just like it was during the Mario-Cuban boatlift in 1980, and that the Haitians in Springfield, Ohio should be left alone and all given the due process of law that we have in the country dealing with this situation of immigration?
		Well, thank you.
		I think certainly there are legal processes that the United States government follows in the process of deporting migrants, whether they're in Springfield, Ohio, or at the border.
		The reality is that those are Evolving, I think, and adjusting to different legal realities, in part, the designation of the criminal organizations like MS-13 and Trenderagua as foreign terrorist organizations, and also beyond that.
		I think that the reality is we've had a lot of testing of boundaries under the Biden administration as far as the limits of what the U.S. immigration system can be stretched to do.
		In their case, I think it was stretched to allow the maximum arrival of undocumented migrants.
		And I think that that has left a situation now where there needs to be an attempt to restore some order to that process, not only the legal migration process, but also the deportation process.
		So, certainly, there is a need for legal due process as is appropriate in the cases of deportation.
		That's not always the same as in the case of U.S. citizens, the legal processes they would face, but they nonetheless do exist.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Here's where the legal process stands when it comes to this deportation battle that we've been talking about.
		The story of the lead story in today's Washington Times: U.S. District Judge James Boesberg upped his feud with President Trump on Wednesday by finding probable cause to hold his administration in contempt of court for continuing to carry out deportations to El Salvador despite the judges' orders to turn around planes.
		The judge, an Obama appointee in the court of the District of Columbia, said he would give Mr. Trump's team a chance to fix this situation by giving hundreds of gang suspects a chance to challenge their deportation.
		Otherwise, he said he would figure out which Trump officials are responsible for defying his orders and would refer them for criminal prosecution.
		What's your read on this case?
unidentified		Well, I think it's a complicated situation.
		I think that there's been different reporting as to the awareness of the pilots on the order and when that came through.
		I think, again, one of the challenges that we're seeing right now is that because a lot of these processes were not followed over the past four years as far as deportations, we're now seeing a lot of challenges to the U.S. government's efforts to restore a level of control and normalcy to the deportation process in light of the really severe crisis that we're facing right now as far as millions of undocumented migrants that have arrived just in the past four years to the United States.
		So it's a significant challenge.
		I think there's also undoubtedly, and I'm not saying necessarily in this case, but certainly there are efforts by certain judges to enact a certain level of control, which I think goes beyond the remit of the judicial system to, in fact, impact the U.S. foreign policy and direct that.
		Particularly, I think that's, you could say that in the case of El Salvador, but I think more broadly, we've seen these challenges by courts that I think are going well beyond what their role should be.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's your best guess at the total number of illegal immigrants who are living in the United States right now?
unidentified		It's really hard to give a number.
unidentified		Certainly millions, and there are experts on migrant population movements that are a little bit more.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think it's closer to 10 million, 20 million?
unidentified		You know, it could very well be upwards of 10 million.
		I think the reality is that even though we have counts of migrant encounters, we also there are numerous migrants who were able to cross over Without being detected over the past four years.
		So, even our awareness of how many people are in the United States or how many have crossed illegally, I think is very limited.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think 20 million is too high of a number?
unidentified		It could be, really, it's anyone's guess kind of thing because of our lack of visibility.
		I think this is one of the efforts that the Trump administration is trying to get a hold of, in part by through this deportation process, but also trying to go through into these particularly sanctuary cities in the United States to get a better sense of the level of these populations that have arrived.
		Certainly, it's been a dramatic arrival of migrants to the United States in a very short time.
		I mean, I think at one point, just as far as border encounters, the ones that we know of, what point we were within the space of one month, seeing the equivalent of the size of the population of Pittsburgh arriving at the U.S. border with Mexico.
		So, this has really been a dramatic increase in migration that the United States has faced over the past four years.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Charlotte, Michigan, this is Cameron Waiting, Independent.
		Good morning.
		You're on with Andres Martinez-Fernandez.
unidentified		Yeah, I just got a quick question.
		All the posturing that the Democratic lefts are doing to get this Maryland wife beater.
		I would say change that sub road they're using to maintain him as a loving father.
		He's a gang-banging wife beating, convicted wife beater.
		And I'm wondering why they're going through all these posturings to get him back.
		My question is: did American taxpayer dollars pay for that senator to go down to that country?
		He's working as a foreign agent now to get that man back.
		And if they were, can we get that money back?
		Can we?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And Cameron, you're going a little bit in and out there, so I'm not sure if you're able to get that.
		He said convicted wife beater.
		The story notes that the wife did not appear in the court hearing, didn't proceed with the matter after filing a civil protective order.
		There's legal back and forth on that, a statement from the family saying things did not escalate, and I decided not to follow through with the civil court process in response to the story coming out about that court order from 2021.
unidentified		Right.
		Yeah.
		So, well, nonetheless, it was filed, and she submitted also a written affidavit highlighting the abuse.
		So, I think that there certainly, as I was saying earlier, there's been a lot that has come to light in this case that I think throws the actions of certain politicians in the United States, including Senator Van Holland, that have really focused around this individual into question.
		Because certainly there's this case of violence, which is well substantiated.
		And then there's also some significant evidence that has been released showing us affiliations with MS-13 and gang activities in the United States.
		And this is prior, going several years back.
		So it's a very concerning case.
		I think that we'll probably, we're already seeing, I think, some people starting to back away from the highlighting of this case in particular and talking more broadly about the issue of deportations and migrant rights.
		But it's certainly a misstep.
		As far as to the question of the caller, I would imagine that taxpayer funds were used in this visit.
		And as far as recourses on that front, as far as a reimbursement, while that would be great, I don't know if that's in the cards.
		I think it's really about holding folks accountable.
		And again, now that we know these details, asking questions of these elected officials and others who have really honed in on this story.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You mentioned migrant rights.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What rights do illegal immigrants have in this country?
unidentified		Well, this is a question maybe more for a legal expert than myself as a security expert.
		Certainly they have legal rights in the United States, and I think the Trump administration has respected that in its processes.
		I think what we do see is, again, a shift now that we are looking at the severity of the crisis, but also the reality that we have now designated a lot of these criminal organizations as foreign terrorist organizations, that we now have different legal processes than we had before for some of these individuals.
		We're not talking more broadly about migrants.
		We're talking about particularly those violent criminals with ties to these illicit organizations and now foreign terrorist organizations as designated by the United States.
		That requires a certain level of legal procedures that I think is significantly different from that of a U.S. citizen.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What does a foreign terrorist designation mean?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And does it mean the U.S. has the ability now or the legal ability to strike at these organizations, not just in the United States, but in other countries?
unidentified		So it doesn't necessarily not a requirement.
		This has actually been a source of confusion for a lot of people.
		In the case of Mexican cartels, for example, an FTO designation is not a basis or requirement for unilateral military action.
		In reality, it's more about certain legal procedures, including what we've discussed with deportations, but also asset forfeiture.
		So as we know, criminal organizations, drug trafficking organizations have numerous illicit finances resources in the United States, but also in foreign entities within the formal system.
		So banks, real estate, other assets.
		This designation helps the United States to seize those assets more easily than they would otherwise.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mayport, sorry, Mayport is gone.
		This is Augusta, Maine.
		Richard is an independent.
		Good morning.
		Thanks for waiting, Richard.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Morning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Richard.
unidentified		Am I on?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
		I'm just wondering, to me, these judges are getting out of control because where were they when Biden was pretty much committing treason at the border by allowing people to pour in?
		In other words, there was a pandemic and there was a remain in Mexico and they didn't do anything to stop the inflow and now all these judges are trying to stop all the deportation.
		Where were they during the Biden administration when he was breaking all the laws and allowing people to come in?
		And if people knew what happened, why 9-11 happened, they would see the same thing I did where they were committing treason at the border.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Richard, got your point.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Well, I do think that there is certainly a strong case, and I certainly think that the Biden administration was derelict in its enforcement at the border.
		And you could go further as saying that they were in some ways inviting this mass migration, illegal migration to the United States.
		So I think that that's a reality that unfortunately the U.S. courts didn't step up to in a lot of ways.
		And now, obviously, there are some activist judges which are taking a more proactive effort in terms of undermining the Trump administration's policies.
		You know, I think in the end, we're starting to see these processes being worked out through the courts.
		I think in the end, it's going to come out in favor of the Trump administration and the rule of law.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Now to Mayport, Pennsylvania.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		This is Christine Democrat.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Good morning.
		I am concerned about taxpayers.
		The budget for this year for concentration camps, actually I think it's two years, is $45 billion for concentration camps.
		I'm very concerned about it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Christine, explain what you mean by concentration camps.
unidentified		Concentration camps basically are places where people are contained.
		That's contained away from others and not necessarily like Hitler's ovens.
		It's like they are there to be punished.
		Some of them were slave camps.
		Some of them were, you know, they did horrible things to these people.
		You know that.
		And we don't know what is happening in El Salvador and our budget for our concentration camps and this president promised concentration camps.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Christine in Pennsylvania, can you talk about detentions along the border and where people are detained and how much you've looked into that in your work at the Heritage Foundation?
unidentified		Well, so one of the things that I think the Trump administration, one of its impacts, as we said, by being proactive on the border, is that we've seen arrivals at the border really fall dramatically.
		So that has significantly reduced the challenge of deporting and dealing with migrants at the U.S. border, certainly compared to the previous year under President Biden.
		I think a lot of the efforts right now are focused on interior deportation, interior to the United States, and identifying, again, those particularly migrants, illegal migrants who have ties with criminal organizations and violent criminal histories as the focus of deportations.
		So that certainly is one of the phases here.
		I don't know how this is going to be kind of segmented going forward, but that seems to be the primary focus of the administration.
		And the reality is that when we're talking about individuals like that, individuals with ties to foreign terrorist organizations, you don't want to just release them.
		Even if we're working with another country, you don't want to just release them into the general population.
		This is actually part of the reason that the gang threat became so dramatic in Central America, was that the United States would deport gang members from U.S. prisons to Central America, and they would just be released into the population in Central America and establish their own presence and criminal networks in those countries.
		That created and accelerated the destabilization of Central America, and we're still dealing with that today.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is there any notification of the government of the countries to which they were being deported to that these were violent criminals, they were being deported?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Are you just saying they would just walk off the planes and go out into the community?
unidentified		In the past, you mean?
		Yes.
		So in the past, there were different phases.
		There were notifications, but also I think there were instances where either a lack of coordination or a lack of capacity on the part of Central American governments let effectively a lot of these people just to be released into the general populations there.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How much precedent is there for paying another country to imprison deportees?
unidentified		I'm not sure about precedence on that front.
		But I think that it is, you know, from my understanding, this is essentially to cover the costs of doing this.
		This is not a profit-making effort by the government in El Salvador to make money off of detaining individuals who were deported.
		I think that the reality is, again, this is an effort to ensure that we don't fall into the traps of the past where we are just exporting criminals who are going to be released in the population, but also an effort to attempt to reconcile with the reality of the mass migration and the dramatic threat that these organizations pose today.
		This group, the Venezuelan Trendaragua, for example, I've traveled across Central and South America.
		Just about every country you hear about the dramatic uptick in violence and organized crime that these individuals, this group, has spread in countries within our hemisphere.
		It's not just the United States.
		So they themselves, countries, governments in Latin America, are taking this very seriously and acting proactively.
		It's not just El Salvador, it's others in Latin America who say that this is not a sustainable threat and we need to confront it head on.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What is the gang that we should be most worried about right now?
unidentified		Well, I think for the American people, the clear answer is the Mexican drug cartels.
		It's not quite a gang.
		I think there's terminologies, but Mexican drug cartels are responsible for fentanyl trafficking and other illicit drug trafficking, which causes over 100,000 overdose deaths in the United States every year.
		In addition to that, they facilitate mass migration.
		They've directly tied into these criminal smuggling rings and have facilitated that across the U.S. border.
		And they control huge swaths of territory in Mexico and are really uncontested in that territory.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How many are there?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How much do they contest control of territory with each other?
unidentified		There are several different cartels and they vary in size.
		There are some, there's certainly conflict between them over territory, and that's a significant part of the violence that Mexico is seeing today, which is spiked dramatically, despite government policies in Mexico that attempt to be hands-off on the threat.
		And it's a real challenge for them as well.
		Unfortunately, there's a very complex situation in Mexico where the government, between corruption as well as lack of capacity and lack of incentives, for a long time has just decided to pull back on confronting the cartels.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is it just proximity to the market, as you might call it, of the United States, that Mexico is most well known for its drug cartels?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What about other Central and South American countries?
unidentified		I think it's certainly the proximity is a factor, but it's not just about how well known they are, it's about how powerful and how much resources they have at their disposal because of that proximity.
		So being directly at the U.S. border makes them the central actors as far as trafficking illicit drugs to the United States.
		Now they have, with the fentadil advent of fentanyl and similar drugs, have taken a much more direct role in cultivation of illicit drugs.
		And that all has given them extremely significant amounts of resources, which they have used to increase their illicit activities, increase their lethality, their ranks, and raise the level of threat to a really unsustainable level for the United States.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Back to the calls.
		This is Andrea in Fort Lauderdale, Independent.
		Thank you for waiting.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, Mr. Fernandez.
		Thank you, Washington Journal, for taking that call.
		I have a couple of questions for your guest.
		Number one, is he aware that U.S. citizens are deported without due process to other countries?
		And if so, what steps are the administration taking to address that?
		Number two, I would like to know if domestic violence is now the current standard for deporting persons without due process or even with gang activities.
		If someone did something in their youth, is that a reason or rationale to deport them to another country without due process?
		And my third and last statement regarding a previous caller who spoke about taxpayer dollars for senators going down to El Salvador, our current president goes to Mar-a-Lago just about every weekend to the tune of about $3 million.
		Every time he moves, it's millions of dollars.
		And I just wonder if there is any kind of concerned in the administration about the amount of money that's used for him to go down to Mar-a-Lago at whim.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Andrea in Florida.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The first two questions were about due process and deportation.
unidentified		Yeah, so the question on U.S. citizens being deported, that's not happening and it's not going to happen.
		What the Trump administration is doing is focused on illegal immigrants and illegal immigrants right now in particular, the focus is illegal immigrants with this nexus and criminal history, which ties them to organizations like the MS-13, Terener Agua, and others that are considered to be foreign terrorist organizations.
		As far as the kind of basis for deportation, I think Andrea, you were talking about the kind of the youth, an individual's crimes maybe in youth and how that can be used against them.
		I'm not sure what the standards are, but certainly, I think you were referring to the case of this individual from Kilmar, who was deported from Maryland.
		This is someone who was not in his youth engaged in this criminal activity.
		He was married when this Affidavit by his wife alleging domestic violence was reported when he was found to be carrying illicit drugs as well by police and affiliating with individuals with direct gang involvement.
		So, you know, I'm not sure about what the standards are with youth, but I think that it's very clear that this is not, this is a case that is much more direct as far as recent criminal activity.
		And the reality is, again, that when we're talking about people who are in the United States illegally, they don't have a right to be here.
		And if they, on top of that, are engaged in criminal activities, I think the only logical step is to deport them and prioritize doing that as quickly as possible because they have not only broken the law as far as being here illegally, but they've broken the law as far as committing violent or other criminal acts.
		And that's not appropriate for someone in our country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Chandler, Arizona, Patricia, Republican.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Just about five minutes left.
		Hi.
		I was basically going to say what the gentleman just said.
		If you're here illegally, that should be enough to deport you.
		That's how it used to be.
		I've been in the Phoenix area since 1983.
		And they'd pull you off a job site in the middle of the day.
		It doesn't matter where you are or what you're doing.
		They know you're illegal.
		They go and get you, and that's it.
		And people used to look over their shoulder all the time.
		You should not be comfortable being here illegally.
		And it went from that to getting free gifts and free room and board and phones and cars and food.
		And you notice there was no scrutiny going in, but there is so much scrutiny with the immigrants going out one by one.
		And what they found out about the supposed MS-13 gang, and I'll go with that, they do seem to match tattoos.
		This man, the wife is crying on the phone because the Democrats are telling her to.
		They're propping her up.
		And meanwhile, we find out that she put two restraining orders on him because he's abusive to her.
		So this judge who's trying to get an illegal immigrant back into our country should know that he's also a wife beater and also...
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Patricia, got your point.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Andre Martinez-Fernandez, anything there you want to pick up on?
unidentified		Yeah, well, I do think that the reality is that when you have illegal immigrants in the United States, people who have come here illegally, they are not permitted to stay here because of the fact that they crossed over illegally.
		And that alone is a sufficient basis for deportation, as the caller was saying.
		And there are processes that need to be followed for that.
		But we shouldn't get bogged down in whether or not there is also, in addition to someone being here illegally, a significant history of criminal violence and association with foreign terrorist organizations.
		The reality is that we've had millions of people arrive to this country over the past few years, and they did so without the proper processes.
		Unfortunately, as the caller was alluding to, the Biden administration sent a signal and in some ways facilitated those arrivals to the United States.
		And that creates a deeply unfair situation for not only the American people, but for some of these individuals who were getting mixed messages from the Biden administration as far as their ability to cross over.
		But the reality is that we are a country of rule of law and we have rules as far as an individual being able to cross into the United States and remain here.
		And those processes have to be followed.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Just about two and a half minutes left.
		I want to end on a question posed by the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal today.
		Their lead op-ed from the editorial board, Trump's border success and the opportunity that it poses.
		They write that according to the data, and you've gone over this in broader terms, according to data released Monday by the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, 7,181 illegal migrants were detained crossing the Southwest land border in March, while another 3,836 aliens showed up at ports of entry.
		That total of 11,017 encounters compares with 189,359 in March of 2024, and it's lower than even during the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic.
		They say the larger question now is whether Mr. Trump can use the political capital from this border victory to achieve a more lasting immigration success.
		And that would mean legislation to fix some of the drivers of illegal migration before the next Democratic president takes power.
		Again, that's the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal.
		Is there an opportunity here for some sort of lasting immigration legislation?
unidentified		Well, I think there's certainly a space to take more sustained action on the border that is going to prevent a border migration crisis from resurging.
		What that means legislatively, I think a lot of folks in Congress say that means a pathway to legalization and other things that I think are actually counter to the effort to secure the border and disincentivize migration.
		I think that one of the core tasks that the Trump administration has ahead of it still is particularly working with countries in our region, in our hemisphere, to ensure that they're able to secure their own borders as well.
		As I said earlier on, many countries in Latin America, governments and societies have been facing a significant cost and toll because of this uncontrolled migration and these criminal actors that are engaged with mass migration.
		And they need support.
		They need cooperation from the United States as far as maintaining control of their own borders and confronting these criminal threats.
		I think that's a very important task that the Trump administration is going to have to face over the coming years in order to make sure that in the future we have, if we face these shifts and increases in migrant outflows that are weaponized by criminal organizations and foreign regimes, that governments in the region and the United States have sufficient control over their borders to prevent that from becoming a crisis.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Maybe a topic for you to come back and talk with us about down the road.
		Andres Martinez Fernandez is with the Heritage Foundation, a senior policy analyst there for Latin America.
		I appreciate the time.
unidentified		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Coming up next, a conversation with Andre Perry about his new book, Black Power Scorecard, Measuring the Racial Gap and What We Can Do to Close It.
		Stick around for that discussion.
		We'll be right back.
brian lamb ▲ ● ▼		British writer Phil Tenline has written a book titled Ghosts of Iron Mountain.
		The publisher Scribner calls it an investigative masterpiece for readers curious about the surprising connection between John F. Kennedy, Oliver Stone, Timothy McVeigh, QAnon, Alex Jones, and Donald Trump.
		In his introduction, author Tinline says the book is the true story of a hoax, a hoax that shocked the nation in the late 1960s and that once created, seemed impossible to extinguish.
		Those involved in the hoax include Victor Navaski, E.L. Doctorow, John Kenneth Galbraith, and the author, the writer, Leonard Lewin.
unidentified		Author Phil Tinline with his book, Ghosts of Iron Mountain: The Hoax of the Century, Its Enduring Impact, and What It Reveals About America Today.
		On this episode of Book Notes Plus with our host, Brian Lamb.
		BookNotes Plus is available wherever you get your podcasts and on the C-SPAN Now app.
		American History TV, Saturdays on C-SPAN 2, exploring the people and events that tell the American story.
		This weekend, at 4:45 a.m. Eastern, we'll look at baseball, America's Pastime, examining the question, what is baseball's place in America's national story?
		With Washington Post columnist George Will and author Kevin Baker.
		And then at 8 p.m. Eastern on Lectures in History, Tulane University history professor Jana Lippmann on Cold War refugees from Cuba and Vietnam and the impact of the Refugee Act of 1980.
		At 9.30 p.m. Eastern on the presidency, author Jay Hakes shares his book, The Presidents and the Planet, looking at the politics and government policies on climate issues through the lens of the White House and presidents dating from the 1950s to the 1990s.
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		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Joining us now is Andre Perry.
		He's a Brookings Institution Senior Fellow and author of this book, Black Power Scorecard, Measuring the Racial Gap and What We Can Do to Close It.
		Mr. Perry, what is the racial gap?
unidentified		Well, I measure power, my attempt to measure power in years of life.
		What this book does is look at the most significant factors on life expectancy.
		And what we find is that there are several factors that are very significant.
		The goal, the title scorecard suggests that we should have metrics that we can hold people accountable to so that they can achieve certain goals.
		And longevity and well-being is the ultimate goal.
		And so for me, it was my attempt to give politicians, community members, activists, clear goals that clearly impact the most important things, and that's life.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So what are those metrics you use?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What are those tools that you can give to politicians as they seek to address this matter?
unidentified		My colleague and I, Jonathan Rothwell Gallup, used a machine learning algorithm, lasso regression for those who are interested in statistics.
		We ran dozens of databases, everything from IRS data, Federal Reserve data, health data, and it allowed us to find the most important factors, and some of them are common sense issues.
		Income, education, home ownership.
		business owner ownership were all positive correlates and this is a correlational study and I want to emphasize that we compared black cities to other black cities.
		The reason being if you compare black to white, it often masks the very real differences that are occurring at the local level.
		And there were some negative correlates.
		One surprising one, religious affiliation, the places that had higher levels of religious membership, they also had lower life expectancy.
		Now, before people jump to conclusions, going to church doesn't make you sick, what it says is probably people are going into church suffering, that church communities have less assets, less homeownership, less income in those neighborhoods.
		And it appears in the data.
		Air pollution was another correlate, the negative correlate.
		Places with high air pollution, lower life expectancy.
		And so there were several factors where we could see places where black people are thriving.
		Montgomery County, Maryland, the average life expectancy is 83.
		Right up the road in Baltimore City, it's around 67.
		And so what we want to do is point activists and politicians to the areas where there's strength in these cities.
		For instance, Baltimore has one of the highest rates of business ownership.
		So you can build upon those high rates of business ownership to address other lower performing metrics.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You talk about life expectancy in specific areas.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What is it overall for African Americans in this country and how does that compare to other racial groups right now?
unidentified		Yeah, African Americans are about 74.
		The average life expectancy is about six years less than whites.
		Asians have the highest life expectancy.
		Latinos are between African Americans and whites.
		Actually, Native Americans have the lowest life expectancy, but that varies from tribe to tribe.
		So there is that range, but I want to emphasize what we did.
		We did not compare a lot between black and other races because there's a different historical context.
		We know that wealth is a strong predictor of health outcomes.
		And so that historic prohibition of not being able to have wealth transfers through homeownership, business ownership, and the like really shifted the conversation in life expectancy.
		So we don't compare.
		And what we found is when you don't compare, you can see the strength in different cities that some cities are doing well combating or addressing racism and others are struggling.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I want to stay on this point for a second.
		This is from the first few pages of your book.
		The quest to secure black power is not and should not be understood as a mission to emulate white power or simply to gain access to white institutions.
		In their attempt to spotlight inequality, people often cite comparisons to white society in ways that tacitly reinforce white norms and standards.
unidentified		Yeah, you know, whenever you hear things about gaining power, you say, well, let's do what white people do.
		And some of that may not be savory.
		The gains in terms of white growth in many times came at the exclusion of other groups.
		We don't want to emulate that.
		And white power in general is based on a hierarchy of norms and values based on race.
		And so what you don't want to replicate that, what you do want to do is really enforce what black power has always been about, is about gaining equal access under the law since the fight for reparations to MLK, Fannie Lou Hamer.
		It is to say that policy should work for us.
		And one of the things I do say in the book, and this is in the current context, I say that DEI and affirmative action have never been the goals.
		They have been intermediary steps to the goal.
		That was the hope.
		They were tactics to get to the goal.
		Black Americans always sought mainstream access to capital markets, to home ownership, to job creation, all these different things.
		And these other tactics have been used, sometimes not to our success.
		And so we should always keep the focus on legislation and policy.
		There's a lot of back and forth between around executive order and its use.
		In the meantime, Congress has not done its job in enacting policy that works for all Americans.
		So this book basically says, hey, here are the criteria that we should have policies around.
		And we have to be disciplined in saying, hey, we still need policy around home ownership, clean air, higher incomes.
		And we must work on safety, strong families, and the like.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		This book is titled Black Power Scorecard, Measuring the Racial Gap and What We Can Do to Close It.
		The author Andre Perry with us for about the next 35 minutes this morning for you to call in.
		It's 202748-8000 for Republicans to call in.
		202-748-8001, we'll put the lines on the screen, split by political parties, so you can dial in on the lines that best fit you.
		You're talking about comparing apples to apples here.
		How would you describe the state of black power today in America compared to just a few years ago before the Black Lives Matter movement?
unidentified		Well, that's interesting.
		I'll pick one sector, and that's business development.
		In 2017, when we started looking at the share of employer firms, that's the share of businesses with more than one employee, it was about 2.3%.
		It has increased 50% since 2017.
		So we're seeing growth in a lot of areas.
		Now, mind you, that's still a small number.
		Black people represent about 14% of the overall population, but only 2.7% of employer firms.
		But those employer firms have increased.
		And certainly since the killing of George Floyd, we've seen some investments.
		But that should not have us think about that one event as influencing all of our outcomes.
		When we're looking at these outcomes, it goes well beyond what happened in a year.
		So we're seeing growth.
		We're actually seeing growth in wealth among African Americans, largely because most of our wealth is in housing.
		And when housing prices go up, black wealth goes up.
		But the difference in disparity is white wealth is growing at a much faster rate because they could use their past wealth that African Americans could not get to invest in the stock market.
		And so you're just seeing greater returns overall.
		But there's black progress going on all over the country.
		And we just need to acknowledge it.
		One of the things that I'm very interested in the story around immigration.
		Where there are a higher percentage of black immigrants, you see higher life expectancy.
		Now, there's a compositional effect, meaning black immigrants generally come into the country wealthier and healthier.
		But there is something phenomenal going on in places that are uplifting communities.
		And so the story of immigration, oftentimes we focus on crime and gangs.
		But when you're talking about the story of black immigrants and their impact on overall well-being and health, it's a positive story for America.
		And that's what we need to focus on.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		In the modern era, when was the period in which we saw the greatest growth in life expectancy for African Americans in this country?
unidentified		Well, certainly between 1930 to now, we've seen years of life expectancy increases.
		But we also see some places almost looking like it is in the 30s in terms of life expectancy.
		So again, like if you're looking at, I'll pick on a few cities a little bit.
		Selma, Alabama, there's a lot of good things going on there.
		I actually focus on Selma, Alabama as a place where we should develop because if we develop Selma, it will be a sort of test case of what we can do in other micropolitan places.
		But life expectancy is lower there, you know, and life expectancy is lower in Baltimore, lower than it should be.
		It's almost as if we're 50 years behind in those places.
		But it's not about geography.
		I want to be clear.
		While people will look at life expectancy in the South and see general lower outcomes, it's not about being in the South.
		It's about the policies in the South that propel life expectancy.
		Certainly I talk about history, I talk about redlining, I talk about discrimination.
		You can do away with those policies, but if you have other policies that still produce the same outcomes, we need to look at those policies and change them.
		And we can do that today.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me take you to a city in the South.
		This is New Orleans.
		Frank is calling on our line for Democrats.
		Andre Perry, he is the author of the book.
		Go ahead, Frank.
unidentified		Thank you so much.
		It's a pleasure to be speaking with Mr. Perry and News this morning.
		Mr. Perry would frequent a coffee shop in New Orleans, First Cup with Mo, and I would see him.
		Yeah, that's right.
		I lived in New Orleans 14 years.
		Thanks for remembering me.
		Yes, anyway, down me being, I heard him last speak about bourgeois or bourgeoisie, that's what I said.
		But anyway, me being a proletarian low class out of the night one, who's now middle class.
		But my concerns are with poverty and lifting yourself out of poverty.
		There's so many things now that a deterrent look like to me with DEI, the president's coming after it, and CRT and anything else that seems like they want you to learn about your past.
		Me being incarcerated at 16 and 17 years old as a high school student with a full-time job as a vagrant.
		So these are the things that contribute to that type of thing where you're always in trouble, having difficulties.
		But now I'm a first-class citizen, Vietnam veteran, class of hard recipient.
		That's how you, if you invest in people, you can have them to come around and be something.
		But if you're constantly doing things to debilitate, can I speak on that?
		Go ahead.
		Let me speak on that because in New Orleans, we know that it has been historically one of the had the highest rates of incarceration throughout the country.
		And we know in terms of incarceration, it actually extracts people, extracts income, which mitigates what you can do in terms of uplifting community, because income is one of the strongest predictors of life expectancy.
		So what the trick is, is it's not a trick, what you have to do is invest, as you stated, in people and jobs and education.
		It's just harder for the public to swallow when they hear, hey, why are we investing in communities when we have criminals?
		But in fact, when you improve the overall conditions in a community, you really improve the life expectancy and outcomes.
		And you mentioned education.
		One of the things that I want to emphasize in this book, education doesn't predict for wealth.
		Wealth predicts for education.
		And so explain.
		So most people think when you go to school, college, you get better jobs.
		And that's true.
		Education is an equalizer in that sense.
		You get the skills.
		You can acquire different services, different job markets, you name it.
		But along the way, if you do not have home ownership that's robust, if wages are suppressed, you can find what we see, Wall Street Journal had an interesting report that showed that when white families graduate from college, their wealth increases a much higher rate than when black families graduate from college.
		And the Fed Reserve did a study that showed when black people graduate from college, they have to give up money to families as opposed to white families who receive an intergenerational wealth transfer.
		They'll get down payment for a car, down payment for a house.
		Black people, and I know this well, I had to give up the money I got for graduation to an auntie whose roof was struggling.
		And so that wealth inequality that is present really impacts black Americans regardless of your educational status.
		But the point is, hey, when you have wealth, you have access to better schools.
		You have access to opportunities that other people do not have.
		And so we need to think about it in that way because what happens is, particularly in Ed Reform and other initiatives, people will say, if we can only fix the school, everything will be all right.
		And they ignore housing, transportation, jobs.
		And by the way, most people know me through my work on housing devaluation where we found homes in black neighborhoods are underpriced.
		But guess how schools are funded?
		Through the property taxes.
		And so if black home or homes in black neighborhoods, I should say, are either overtaxed or underappraised, it'll impact the revenue that schools receive.
		So we should not look at education as this panacea for everything, the great equalizer we like to call it.
		But it's limited in what it can do.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Might be a good time to explain what you do at the Brookings Institution and your idea originally for writing this book.
unidentified		Yeah, I work at a center called the Center for Community Uplift at the Brookings Institution, and we try to measure well-being and economic security across race and place.
		Well-being is how you perceive yourself in the world doing.
		And generally, economic security is wealth.
		Our goal is to figure out how to improve well-being and economic security.
		The reason why the book is not titled Measuring the Wealth Gap, because my beliefs are the wealth gap is something that's going to take multiple generations to close over time, significant period of time.
		However, we can expect people to have the resources needed to thrive so that they can live to 80, that they can pass on some wealth to their children.
		You shouldn't have to wait 100 years for those things.
		So what I try to do in communities, find real solutions that can happen in communities to improve the quality of life so folks can live to 81, 82, 83.
		And that's the purpose of this center.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me take you to Norfolk, Virginia.
		This is John Colling, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I believe one of the solutions that closing the racial gap is through black unity.
		Well, I should say it's making a better day.
		It's through black unity.
		As far as closing the racial wealth gap, I think, especially here in America, I think that's almost impossible.
		Than that the government, I believe, is on the white people's side.
		And prime example is with this whole.
		I'm sorry.
		No, I want to address just a couple things while you're there.
		We can address racial wealth gaps.
		Remember, tax policy is a major driver of how wealth is ultimately redistributed.
		Certainly, we've had the most wealthiest people influencing policy in that way.
		But I want to talk about black unity in this regard.
		What color are those people?
		They're white people.
		Okay, I'll just say this.
		In my book, I address the whole billionaire class.
		There are lots of a growing number of black people in the billionaire class.
		And in the book, I do quote Jay-Z just to make the point you're getting at.
		When he asks in the album 444, he asks in a song, what's better than one billionaire, one black billionaire, two, especially if they're the same you as you.
		And when I heard that, I said, wow, that doesn't make much sense because it's all about the means of production.
		If you make a billion by suppressing wages, by not providing health care, and in the music industry, where Jay-Z is very familiar, by issuing contracts that really keep you in debt, one billionaire is not, two billionaires are not better than one.
		And so what I, but the point of it is there has always been an effort to push black capitalism, what Nixon called black capitalism, where we sort of adopt being better capitalists.
		And what I say in the book, no, we still need a sort of a collective approach, community land trust, figuring out ways to do shared equity projects.
		I'll mention one of the folks I've mentioned in the book, Lanier Richardson.
		He's a developer in Baltimore, developing the Edmondson Village shopping mall.
		He's developing a shopping mall, but through the SEC new crowdfunding mechanisms, enabling new accredited investors, people with as low as $1,000 can actually own the property.
		So he adds more than 200 new owners of this property.
		And that is what, when I hear collective, any kind of collective action of black unity, we need those kind of collective apparatuses.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The book, again, is Black Power Scorecard, Measuring the Racial Gap and What We Can Do to Close It.
		Andre Perry is our guest this morning on the Washington Journal, taking your phone calls onlines for Republicans, Democrats, and Independents as usual.
		This is Rich in Hickory Hills, Illinois, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thanks for taking that call.
		I was wondering about, as you're speaking, about this closing the racial wealth gap and wondering if the race is the like the measuring stick.
		Is that the?
		Is there certain particular problems that are racial?
		That because the racial the financial gap should is.
		It shouldn't be about.
		There shouldn't be a race.
		It should be that that the issue of wealth in in any group the the, the issue should be the same.
		Yeah, and you know, and you're right, we should.
		Race should not be a predictor for outcomes.
		Um unfortunately, we've had policies that were predicated on race, that um shifted the wealth or limited wealth um accumulation among black Americans.
		I mean, a lot of people point to redlining as uh, as um a major cause for the racial wealth cap.
		I mean, let's not forget slavery, Jim Crow, racism and the like.
		Um, but what that those sets of policies did would would not allow black people to essentially pass on um equity that would would have been accrued in your home to their children and to their children and and over time that accumulates.
		And in current day where people are investing um heavily in the stock market, if you did not, if you do not have that discretionary income to do so um, you're going to have less wealth, and wealth again is a major predictor of everything from health, education and all these positive things.
		So yes you're, you're right, the caller is right, race should not be a predictor, but policies have been predicated on race.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me follow up on that.
		On on wealth accumulation being one of those indicators of more life expectancy, uh, in this country, marriage is often seen as a a path to more benefits from more wealth accumulation.
		You address this in your book.
		It's page 132 of your book you write.
		Any conversation about marriage rates and the associated benefits must be contextualized within a framework of past and present day racism and sexism, which has deprived black men and women of the wealth crucial for supporting families and diminished the likelihood that they will get married in the first place.
		It is impossible to improve marriage rates without addressing the policies that make marriage less likely and less advantageous for black people.
unidentified		Explain yeah, you know, you go to any uh, a podcast or popular blog it's.
		And when they're talking about marriage, particularly black marriage, it is an interpersonal.
		It's about the interpersonal failures that are occurring.
		Black women aren't bringing anything to the table.
		Black men are too busy philandering and all this other stuff.
		What those conversations miss horribly are the policies that establish the conditions for marriage, the preconditions of marriage.
		So if you live in wealthier communities, guess what the marriage rates are better you.
		Feneba Ado, a researcher at UNC Chapel Hill, has done a phenomenal job studying This, controlling for various factors.
		So, in essence, healthier communities build healthier relationships.
		We're not going to marriage our way out of poverty.
		We're not going to marry our way out of a broken criminal justice system, broken educational system.
		But it is incumbent upon people of both genders, all genders, to say, let's work on these preconditions.
		And when we do that, you get better outcomes.
		So, in many ways, fighting discrimination, sexism, racism, and the like is a romantic act that you can build community partnerships when you work on the preconditions.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Andre Perry, with us for about the next 15 minutes.
		Just a note for viewers: the House is going to come in for a brief pro forma session, and we will, of course, go there for gapital gavel coverage when they do.
		Until then, your phone calls on this book, Black Power Scorecard, Measuring the Racial Gap and What We Can Do to Close It.
		This is Sarah in Florida, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Andreas.
		I have a question regarding racial segregation on Long Island.
		So, I had read this book, Color of Law.
		It's a wonderful book, variating but wonderful.
		And it mentions the school district zones that kind of like follow those racial geographic lines.
		Yes.
		And I'm wondering if that racial wealth gap obviously has to do with education.
		Like, did that lead to increased wealth gap for blacks on Long Island?
		What are politicians doing about it?
		And then I also had a question about, I do believe New York has for its residents free tuition.
		Is that helping that racial gap for blacks?
		Thank you.
		Yeah, you know, education has a long, sordid history of discriminating.
		And certainly the lack of access to quality schools, education reduces the human capital that people can receive to better their own lives.
		But I also wanted to focus on how zoning in general has allowed people to hoard wealth.
		And in a more perfect world, you would have systems in place that would allow resources to go to the places and to the people who need it most.
		But we see in current day efforts in Louisiana, other places, where there are school districts literally trying to succeed from the area so that they can hoard some of the revenue generation in the shopping malls or whatever, the high-income districts so they can keep that revenue because essentially they don't want to pour money into other kids.
		And so when we heard all this talk about CRT, critical race theory, and the like, of course, there was not any CRT being taught in schools.
		But what you see there is a prelude to attack funding mechanisms that really have a bearing on school districts.
		And certainly the current administration dismantling the Department of Education can have a negative impact on that funding.
		Because let's be clear, the Department of Education is really a check distribution department.
		It gives money to districts.
		It gives money for the financial aid.
		And so if those systems are not in place to protect the district that need those checks most, you can see less revenue in those places.
		But I want to also address your issue of free college.
		Free college, by the most part, at the two-year level, is happening.
		You see either through the Pell Grant can cover a lot of it, or states taking it upon themselves to offer free tuition for the most part.
		What we really do, and that has a tremendous impact on people's pockets.
		Look, I was a college dean at one point.
		I never saw a tuition hike a president didn't like.
		If something happened in biology, I don't care, I was in the College of Education, you would increase tuition.
		If you wanted to create a new dorm, you would increase tuition.
		Now, why they can do that is largely they can use federal financial aid to get that revenue back.
		But the burden falls on low-income students who need to take on that debt.
		A fascinating phenomenon during the pandemic was when we froze student loans.
		Guess what happens?
		Black students, millennials in particular, started to buy homes.
		Why?
		Because their debt-to-income ratio improved, and they used that cushion to actually gain access, to gain assets.
		So, yes, we need a free college option at the four-year level.
		That will enable, I mean, and we already do this at the K-12 level.
		You do have a public option that you can go to your public school.
		It's tax supported through their taxes.
		We need that at the four-year level as well, because we know that college tuition is just burdening so many.
		And you hear across the generations, you'll hear somebody who went to college in the 70s said, we shouldn't cancel student loans.
		I paid for college.
		I went, but college tuition increased three times that since in the last 30 years.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What does the public option of a four-year college look like?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is that a commuter school program?
unidentified		No, it looks like the University of Alabama, the University of Pittsburgh, LSU, Grambling State University, South Carolina University.
unidentified		I really do believe our public schools should be subsidized, and you should have that option to go there.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Just like if you How do you pay for that will be the question that you'll get?
unidentified		Yeah, how do you pay for it?
		But we do know at the publics, the four-year publics, their tuitions have been maintained.
		Why?
		Because state legislators have said, no, you're not going to raise the tuition.
		We see the big spikes in tuition at the privates, and certainly the proprietary schools that are certainly taking advantage.
		But we can create a system which maintains a tuition cost for consumers, and we can create a system of paying for that.
		But the collar's point is right on.
		College tuition is now a burden.
		It's actually discouraging people from going in to college.
		And so, we've got to figure out a new way to do it because, you know, it's just like healthcare.
		This is eventually not sustainable.
		Like, you know, in some cases, and we tell in terms of black children, go to the best schools, get the best education.
		But if you're going to literally take on $400,000 in debt, $600,000, you're mitigating your wealth.
		That's why I say wealth predicts for education.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The caller brought up a book, and it sounded like he recognized it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The color of law, A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America.
unidentified		Yeah, and why housing is so important in this.
		Housing is really the most common way people build wealth.
		And so if you have housing discrimination, which we have a history of, remember, we have a longer history of legally saying black people could not own assets.
		We have a much longer history of that than we have of black people being able to own.
		But during the 30s, when we expanded mortgages for Americans, we limited that among African Americans.
		And that really reduced wealth.
		It shaped the way we look at ourselves as a community, and it had negative effects all across the board.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me take you to Texas City, Texas.
		This is James Independent.
		You're on with Andre Perry.
unidentified		Mr. Perry.
		Yes.
		How does diet contribute to longevity of black Americans?
		The medical bills and the cost of medical, how does that play into it?
		Yeah.
		So my research looks at the social determinants of health.
		So we sort of eliminate the medical genetic factors from the research.
		But certainly diet, exercise, all of those things matter.
		But know that life expectancy is more impacted by the social determinants.
		So when you have wealth, when you have clean air, when you have all these different things, you make better choices, it looks like.
		And so a lot of my research focuses on the social determinants because what ends up happening, if you say, what about diet?
		You end up getting out of a policy conversation.
		You start getting into a blaming conversation.
		You start saying that, hey, you just need to do this.
		And in some cases, I don't care how you eat.
		If you live in toxic areas next to industry, like in Cancer Alley in Louisiana, for instance, and we certainly know the governor is pushing back on making sure that we can clean these areas.
		It doesn't matter what you eat.
		You're going to have higher cancer rates.
		So this book is much more focused on the policy conversation because that, in effect, has more influence on the overall health.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't you also live in the cleanest area in the country too, but eat horribly?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And that certainly impacts as well.
unidentified		So I want to be clear.
		I like to think I eat well.
		I like to think I exercise on a regular basis.
		I do regular do regular exercise.
		So it's absolutely important, and all communities need to focus on their health.
		What I am saying, though, is that wealth, environmental factors, social factors, education has a big bearing on our behaviors.
		If you're not getting a great education, it's less likely you'll act due to kind of behaviors that increase life expectancy.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Just about 10 minutes left.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What are some of the policy prescriptions then that you propose that we haven't talked about yet?
unidentified		Yeah, you know, I'm very high on special purpose credit programs.
		Special purpose credit programs are programs that allow banks to change their underwriting practices in ways that meets consumers where they are.
		In many cities all across the country, from the DMV to Atlanta to Baltimore, you have thousands of people who've done everything right in terms of you have their credit score, they're earning a decent wage, good wage, but they just can't save enough for the down payment.
		And how discrimination shows up is a lack of down payment.
		And this is true for a lot of communities and rural communities.
		You have people doing everything right, and they're paying rents that often exceed what a mortgage payment would be.
		What special purpose credit programs allow for is to say, hey, let's give you a mortgage, which a much lower down payment.
		And Then you can get into a home.
		I'm high on this because if we're going to combat wealth disparities, you have to meet people where they are.
		What I argue in the book is that we need to say what are these local solutions that can be scaled and developed.
		Remember that redlining, for instance, did not come from DC.
		It started in Baltimore.
		It eventually was resourced and codified by the federal government.
		But just like redlining can come from local governments and proliferate, positive solutions can come from local areas.
		So we're seeing special purpose credit programs.
		I'll mention one program I love in New Orleans.
		The caller mentioned New Orleans.
		A guy by the name of Calvin Mackey.
		He has this organization called STEM NOLA, where they're actually doing science programs outside of schools.
		So on the weekends, after school projects, in the superdome, in stadiums.
		And what's important about that, if we're going to improve education, there's no question the kids need more at-bats doing, particularly in STEM and in the STEM field, science, technology, education, and math.
		But what else Calvin Mackey does, and by the way, he's the older brother of Captain America, Anthony Mackey, he's also purchasing property in the area, developing energy technologies.
		So he's enriching the neighborhood, making it wealthier, and providing kids with more hands-on science activities.
		That's what we want to see.
		So in terms of policy solution, instead of vouchers going out to K-12 institutions, we do need vouchers for after-school programs, for summer programs, so kids can get more out-of-school time on academics.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying to get one or two more calls.
		And this is Perry in Montgomery, Alabama.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		Mr. Perry.
		Yes.
		You mentioned something about Selma, and I noticed in certain of these black cities where there's a transition to a black mayor and businesses moves out.
		So are you familiar with how businesses can get back into these places?
		Can the mayor go out and bring business on their own?
		Or do they have to go through the state government to get those businesses to come to those cities?
		Yeah, I'm actually working.
		I actually wrote an op-ed for Alabama.com on this very issue on Selma.
		And in that article, I talked about how we should be investing in that airport in Selma.
		It could increase the number of distribution centers and the like.
		It's a wonderful asset you can build upon.
		We should also see some development of that commercial corridor right off the Edmund Pettus Bridge.
		Every year we commemorate Bloody Sunday through Jubilee.
		And every year, hundreds of thousands of people come to the city and they don't have the hotels to stay in.
		They don't have the restaurants to go to.
		And we need to facilitate more economic growth by investing in the downtown areas in ways that make sense.
		But Selma represents small-town micropolitan cities all across the country.
		They are worthy of investment as well.
		And the country can't be just a city of superstar cities.
		We need to invest in these smaller places to see economic growth bubble up.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		As we wait for the House to come in here, this is Henry in Michigan.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Thanks for waiting.
		Good morning, Mr. Perry.
		I hope C-SPAN will have you back next year and the year after that and so on.
		A wise woman told me that black people would do infinitely better if we stop thinking about and worrying about what white people can do for them.
		There are more poor white people in this country than there are anyone else.
		If you could please talk to the question about black people and credit.
		I don't think black people know about how jealously they should guard their credit and in being homeowners.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Well, Henry, let me cut you off there to give Andre Perry a chance to respond before the House comes in.
unidentified		One of the good things that's happening now, credit scoring systems have changed.
		And so we're seeing an update in credit scoring because we know that place and race were determinants of credit score.
		Again, the lack of intergenerational wealth transfer essentially facilitate more debt among African Americans.
		And so there are structural changes being done to that.
		But I also want to be clear, from a research perspective, we always compare black to white.

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