CSPAN - Washington Journal 04/08/2025

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April 8, 2025 07:00-10:01 - CSPAN

03:00:38

Washington Journal 04/08/2025

Participants

Main

john mcardle

cspan 38:52

Appearances

don bacon

rep/r 01:10

donald j trump

admin 02:46

john barrasso

sen/r 00:59

maria cantwell

sen/d 01:22

mike johnson

rep/r 00:37

Clips

barack obama

d 00:02

barak ravid

cnn 00:18

bill clinton

d 00:02

george h w bush

r 00:02

george w bush

r 00:04

jimmy carter

d 00:03

joe biden

d 00:03

john alexander

00:14

ma bell

00:17

margaret brennan

cbs 00:11

mark adams

00:03

marty schachter

00:04

ronald reagan

r 00:01

Callers

gary in oklahoma

callers 00:13

jefferson in virginia

callers 00:11

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Some low-income families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything.
		Comcast supports C-SPAN as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy.
		Coming up on Washington Journal, your calls and comments live.
		Then, Ronna Epting, executive director of the advocacy group Move On, discusses her organization's strategies to help Democrats counter Trump administration policies.
		And the president of the Evangelical Nonprofit Family Research Council, Tony Perkins, on the administration's approach to social issues.
		Washington Journal is next.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		It's Tuesday, April 8th, 2025.
		The House and Senate both return at 10 a.m. Eastern this morning, and we begin on the issue of tariffs.
		The Trump administration yesterday threatened to veto a bill that would give Congress the power to review and possibly end tariffs imposed by the president.
		It's a bill that has the backing of Democrats and some Senate and House Republicans.
		With the fight over tariffs escalating on Capitol Hill, we're asking you this morning if you think Congress should limit President Trump's ability to impose tariffs.
		Phone lines split as usual by political party.
		Republicans, it's 202-748-8001.
		Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		Independents, 202-748-8002.
		You can also send us a text, that number, 202-748-8003.
		If you do, please include your name and where you're from.
		Otherwise, catch up with us on social media on XITs at C-SPANWJ on Facebook.
		It's facebook.com/slash C-SPAN.
		And a very good Tuesday morning to you.
		You can go ahead and start calling in now this battle over tariffs on Capitol Hill taking place in the form of a bipartisan piece of legislation.
		Here's the story from Politico: Trump threatens to veto a bill to curb tariff power is the headline.
		Trump's veto threat, they write, comes as a handful of Senate Republicans have signed on to a bill from Senator Maria Cantwell, the Democrat of Washington, and Chuck Grassley, the Republican of Iowa, that would require the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of issuing any new tariffs and that Congress explicitly approve any tariffs within 60 days.
		The bill also would allow Congress to end any tariff at any time.
		The Office of Management and Budget yesterday putting out a statement of administrative policy, essentially a warning to Congress saying that if this bill did pass the House and Senate, Donald Trump would veto that bill.
		They write in their tweet putting out that statement of administrative policy that this bill would dangerously hamper the president's authority and duty to determine our foreign policy and to protect our national security.
		A fight over tariffs brewing on Capitol Hill.
		It was yesterday in the Oval Office that President Trump defended his tariff policy once again.
unidentified		This is what he had to say: We lose billions of dollars.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We lose close to $2 trillion a year on trade.
		We lose a trillion dollars a year to China.
		A trillion.
		We lose hundreds of billions of dollars a year on trade to China.
		We lose hundreds of billions of dollars overall, probably close to $2 trillion.
		Why would we do that?
		Number one, why would we do that?
		And then you have to say, is it sustainable?
		Then you hear about all of the people that say, well, deficits, if we have a deficit with the country, if the country has a big surplus with us, like China has a massive surplus that they take and they spend on their military.
		Well, we don't want that.
		I don't want them to take $500, $600 billion a year and spend it on their military.
		I don't want them spending money on their military.
		And I shouldn't have to spend money.
		We shouldn't have to spend it either.
		Because, you know, hopefully, and I said this to President Xi, hopefully it's money that we're never going to use.
		In other words, because we're not going to use those incredible weapons that we have and that they have.
		We don't want that.
		So it's going to be very interesting.
		It's the only chance our country will have to reset the table.
		Because no other president would be willing to do what I'm doing or to even go through it.
		Now, I don't mind going through it because I see a beautiful picture at the end.
		But we are making tremendous progress with a lot of countries, and the countries that really took advantage of us are now saying, please negotiate.
		You know why?
		Because they're getting beaten badly because of what's happening.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		President Trump yesterday at the White House will show you more in this first hour of the Washington Journal.
		As we ask you, should Congress limit President Trump's tariff ability?
		Here's the headline from The Hill yesterday: seven GOP senators signing on to a bill to check Trump's trade authority.
		It's the Trade Review Act of 2025.
		Chuck Grasley, as we noted, the lead Republican sponsor of that legislation.
		Senator Mitch McConnell also signed on to that legislation, according to Hill.
		Senators Jerry Moran of Kansas, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Tom Tillis of North Carolina, Todd Young of Indiana, and Susan Collins of Maine, the other Republicans signing on to that legislation.
		We'll talk more about it, but we're simply asking you: should Congress limit President Trump's tariff ability?
		202-748-8001 for Republicans to call in.
		202-748-8000 for Democrats.
		Independents, the number is 202-748-8002.
		And we'll begin on the independent line.
		Jeremy in Madison, Wisconsin.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, sir.
		Good morning, Mr. Carl.
		How are you doing this morning?
		Doing well.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's your thoughts on this question we're asking this morning?
unidentified		I believe, I believe, here, just bear with me.
		Stick with me just for a sec, just for one second.
		I believe like-minded individuals in Washington, D.C., the subpopulation in Washington, D.C., cohabitating Washington, D.C., should get together and just have a talk about what it is we are talking about.
		But your question initially struck me regarding my ignorance in President McKinley and Congress and tariffs.
		And I was hoping you could help us.
		And for yeah, for all I know, I could be way off base.
		You know, I'm in Madison, in Eau Claire.
		I'm not in Washington, D.C. All right.
		Thank you, sir.
		Good morning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Jeremy in Wisconsin.
		John is in Holbrook, New York.
		Republican.
		John, what are your thoughts on this question?
		We're asking: should Congress limit President Trump's tariff ability?
unidentified		No, they shouldn't.
		They're biased.
		Anything from Washington is biased against President Trump.
		He's been successful before.
		77 million of us trust him and what he's saying.
		Who else brings in trillions of dollars?
		Any other president can you think of?
		He's got companies coming back begging to get back into America.
		No, I think they should mind their business and let the man do his job.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's John in New York.
		Edward in Lawrenceville, Georgia.
		Good morning.
		What do you think?
unidentified		Good morning.
		No, I don't think Congress should really limit the tariff's ability.
		But one thing is it's very hard with the Democrats.
		They say that the Republicans don't listen to the other side, but that's not true.
		We can hear you loud and clear, and we understand what you're saying.
		And you're not listening to us.
		So I just think that Our biggest problem, and it's going to go on and on and on, is Democrats are looking for complete, they're just power-hungry, and that's all they care about.
		They don't care about doing something correctly.
		They just want to have power.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Edward, what are your thoughts on a handful of Republicans, certainly not the majority of Senate Republicans, but seven Senate Republicans signing on to this legislation that would limit Donald Trump's tariff ability?
unidentified		Yeah, well, I don't think that the Republicans would do the same thing that the Democrats would do.
unidentified		They might be limiting it for another reason.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Edward in Georgia.
		The argument laid out by supporters of this bill is that Congress originally had the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations.
		It's Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, if you look for it in the U.S. Constitution, saying Congress needs to reassert that authority.
		And the executive branch argument here, Donald Trump's White House argument, is that Congress has delegated that authority for national security reasons, that the president can impose tariffs for national security reasons.
		This is sort of the constitutional argument that's taking place around this piece of legislation.
		And we're asking you: should Congress limit President Trump's tariff ability?
		Congressman Don Bacon, the Republican of Nebraska, is one of the supporters of this legislation on the House side.
		He was on Chuck Todd's podcast yesterday talking about his support of this legislation.
		This is what he had to say.
don bacon ▲ ● ▼		But this is how I see this happening.
		We're going to resubmit this bill Monday.
		And already, Senator Grassley and his Democrat colleague, they've already submitted it in the Senate.
		They've got seven Republicans already or co-sponsors.
		You could see a pathway to 60 here, depending on how the market goes, inflation, unemployment based off what happens with these tariffs.
		I think it's going to be a lot longer for the House to get there.
		I get that.
		But if the Senate ends up passing it and we're not seeing good traction in the economy, you're going to see people say, okay, this is working.
		And we've got to restore our authorities.
		In the Constitution, it says Congress has the authority for tariffs and taxes.
		And by the way, some Republicans are denial.
		Tariffs are attacks on consumers.
		This is no other way around it.
		That's what it is.
		We have that power, but we gave it away approximately a century ago.
		An emergency.
		If it was an emergency, then the president can do it.
		So Congress needs to say, okay, this is being abused.
		It's not an emergency.
		This is whole policy being written.
		Or it is possible the courts will intervene.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Don Bacon with Chuck Todd yesterday on his podcast.
		We're asking you about this legislation.
		Don Bacon, there, laying out sort of the math in the Senate here for this to pass, saying it's a lot tougher in the House.
		Though, with the White House issuing a veto threat, if Donald Trump were to veto this legislation, even if it did pass the House and Senate, it would then take a two-thirds majority both in the House and the Senate to override that veto.
		That's how the system works.
		We're getting your thoughts on this process amid all of the news this week about tariffs about trade, about the markets.
		Getting your sense this morning on phone lines for Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.
		This is Jason, a Democrat in Montgomery, Alabama.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Should they?
		Yes.
		Will they?
		No.
		Trump has successfully taken over and filled the Republican Party with sycophants and cult members.
		He made it his agenda to fill the executive with people that are loyal to him.
		It was an overt thing that was forecast and telegraphed before the last election.
		And truth be told, it is what it is at this point because Congress is not going to do it.
		So now it's up to the judges to stop or for other countries to actually stand up and band together and fight against it.
		Because at this point, you can't put it back.
		He's at this point, he's just reckless for no reason.
		He's a petty, evil, ignorant man that has surrounded himself with petty, evil, ignorant people.
		And unfortunately, we, the American people, put all this power in their hand.
		As we can tell from the beginning, the first day of Liberation Day, it was exposed that the mask that they were using was flawed and really a lie.
		It was about the trade deficit, not tariffs.
		And yet, even though countries that we had a trade surplus with, they still put tariffs on them.
		So this isn't sincere.
		It's not legit.
		It's just a way for Trump to have people come to him and prostrate themselves before him and beg him and for him to get attention.
		And Congress will do nothing about it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Jason in Montgomery, Alabama.
		Steve is in Philly, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I say, give the tariffs a chance.
		You got to give them a chance because the G20 and the world global economy and the Europeans have been taking advantage of us for like 50 years, ever since this started.
		Ever since the World War came down and the rest of the world joined our economy, it seems like we've been paying higher prices on everything every year.
		So it doesn't matter.
		Now, this man is trying to get this under control by letting the tariffs play out, have them come to the table and come and be reasonable with the American people.
		Frankly, I feel we don't need a world economy.
		Just us is fine.
		Listen, farmers, stay cool, be calm.
		If you got to raise the prices, hey, I'm willing to pay a little extra to keep American farmers and industries going.
		One more point.
		A lot of the jobs that were created during the Obama administration were federal employee jobs to get the economy going from when the bottom fell out in 09 and 010.
		All those jobs has to be taken away.
		And he took them away, Donald Trump.
		Things will get better.
		Maybe the people that were sitting down in their offices drinking Pepsi and eating potato chips should dig ditches, work in construction, work in factories, get real hard-paying jobs.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Steve, you say things will get better.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How long do you think it'll take?
unidentified		Well, whatever it takes.
		Hey, the Depression took a long time, but this ain't the Depression.
		This is, we got the world's strongest economy, the United States.
		Canada and other countries got to come to the table.
		They just can't say, hey, look, this is what you got.
		We've been paying out of our pockets for years and years.
		We built Europe after World War II.
		We stopped paying.
		We stopped paying to build Europe in the 80s.
		It took us 35, 40 years.
		We rebuilt their whole country.
		What else do you want from us?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Steve in Philadelphia.
		Here's some of the economic headlines, the lead stories in several of today's papers.
		This is the Wall Street Journal: Market Turmoil Spreads Across the Globe.
		The sidebar story with the front page of the Wall Street Journal.
		Wall Street executives warn of dangers of tariffs to the front page of the Washington Times.
		Donald Trump threatens 104% tariffs on China.
		The president defiant despite a third day of stock market turmoil and anxiety.
		And then also always interesting to look at the political headlines in the political media online, looking at both the right and the left from the right.
		It's Breitbart and the story in Breitbart on the front page of their website talking about Donald Trump's economic headlines.
		The headline, winning Trump's reciprocal tariffs prompt, Japan trade negotiations with the United States.
		You can see the headline there.
		And then from the other side of the aisle, it's the Huffington Post.
		Their headline, simply, he has no idea what he's doing.
		That's the front page of HuffPost.com.
		Back to your calls.
		This is Jamie Severn, Maryland, Independent.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Hello, hello.
		Yeah, I think that Congress is doing exactly right.
		I think that we have a system of checks and balances.
		And for democracy to work, you have to have that.
		And, you know, the co-equal branches of government.
		And I think that this is a great thing.
		And I think it's actually going to help him.
		I think that to keep him from going too far.
		And I'm not saying he hasn't already gone too far, but Congress needs to sometimes got to put a leash on him.
		And I think that that is really going to help us out in the end.
		In this way, we can stay away from war and those kinds of things that that may bring about.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Jamie Severn, Maryland.
		This is Steve Lake Placid, Florida, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, sir.
		I believe that Congress should be able to stop the president.
		And I look at his tariffs.
		If we bring back these factories from overseas and we start paying them the rates that we pay our workers, inflation is going to go sky high.
		And that's about all I have to say is I don't believe in these tariffs.
		And I think somebody needs to stop them.
		I don't know if Congress is going to be able to stop him, but, you know, looking for the midterms.
		The midterms are coming.
		Thank you so much.
		Bye-bye.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Steve in Florida, Olivia in the Tar Hill State.
		Pinehurst, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Yes.
		No, I do not think at some point, I am sure regulation by Congress on the tariffs might be necessary, but not now.
		What's going on at this point in time is just a demonstration of kind of a perfect demonstration of how impetuous we are as a nation.
		And those seven or eight Republicans who've signed on to some bill, I saw their names, and for the most part, they are the same ones that would be waffling around on anything that Trump, that our president would do.
		Trump is tough.
		Trump is smart.
		He takes risk.
		We have got to calm down.
		And by the way, I'm a widow, and I'm losing money daily in my 401k.
		And I could argue very differently, but I'm not.
		I'm taking a deep breath.
		I am depending on our president to get us through this.
		I think maybe in a month to six weeks, the stock market will have, it probably needed some correction anyway.
		So it could be going through some correction along with what is happening on the landscape of tariffs.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Olivia, you said at some point you think it could be necessary for Congress to step in and limit.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		When would that be in your mind?
unidentified		Maybe a year.
		I don't know.
		I'm saying, let me back up and explain that a bit.
		Congress does have a role to play.
		And I would be in favor of, yes, at some point in time, depending on conditions that I can't even imagine right now, it might be necessary for Congress to come on board and sit down and talk with the president and his cabinet on how can we approach this somewhat differently.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		But you think that's maybe a year away at this point?
unidentified		I don't think it's today.
		I don't think it's next week.
		I think we're going to have to sit back.
		Like I say, I'm a widow.
		I have very fixed income.
		I'm taking a breath.
		I'm watching my portfolio.
		I'm going to stop watching my portfolio because that's not good either.
		We are going to have to hang tough just as our president hangs tough.
		Yes.
		But at some point, there may be, maybe a year from now, Congress does need to get together.
		I'll come together and talk and come up with some kind of, I don't know, some kind of tools or other means to achieve what he's after.
		He's after fair trade with countries such as China.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		It's Olivia in North Carolina.
		Here's what this legislation that we've been talking about this morning, the impetus for this question today.
		Here's what it would do.
		The legislation would limit Donald Trump's ability to impose unilateral tariffs without the approval of Congress.
		This is the rundown from the Hill newspaper, by the way.
		It would require the President to notify Congress of the imposition of new tariffs and increase tariffs within 48 hours and provide an explanation of the reasoning for the action.
		It would also require the administration to provide an assessment of the potential impact of imposing or increasing the duty on U.S. businesses and consumers.
		And more critically, it would require that new tariffs sunset after 60 days unless Congress passes a joint resolution to approve them.
		That's the Hill newspaper in their wrap-up.
		It also, and this is probably the most critical path part of this legislation, provides a pathway for Congress to cancel tariffs before that 60-day period expires if they pass a joint resolution of disapproval of the tariff.
		That's also the wrap-up from the Hill newspaper.
		Brenda, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Democrat, good morning.
		Your thoughts?
unidentified		John, I think Congress should stop Trump from putting these tariffs on right now.
		The tariffs aren't going to work.
		If you remember, back in 2017, Donald Trump used the carrot to get businesses to come back to the country.
		He's using the same spiel in 2017 that business taxes in our country made businesses made them not competitive in the world.
		So he slashed corporate tax rates.
		He used the carrot in 2017 and businesses didn't come back.
		So now he's using the tariff stick.
		Why would a company relocate from a country where they pay $15 a day to a country where they're going to pay employees $15 an hour?
		You know, they wouldn't, and they're not going to.
		And especially since Republicans finally admitted that tariffs are paid by the consumer.
		So why would they bring their businesses back when they can pass on the tariffs to the consumers who are buying their products?
		If they didn't take advantage of the great business taxes from 2017, why would they do it now?
		And those business taxes were seven years ago.
		So these corporations had seven years to take advantage of Donald Trump's great business tax cuts, and they haven't done it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Brenda, do you think those tax cuts will be renewed in Congress?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		They're up for renewal at this point?
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
		They will absolutely be renewed because that's Republicans' biggest stint is tax cuts.
		That's all they live for is tax cuts.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Brenda in Pennsylvania.
		Cecily, waiting in Columbia, Maryland, Republican.
		Good morning to you.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		I think that Congress should limit Trump if these tariffs were wildly ridiculous.
		But most of these are just leveling the playing field and having like a cross-the-line tariff.
		And not only that, with Canada and Mexico, they need to take the fentanyl crisis seriously.
		I've had three cousins die from fentanyl overdoses.
		So those tariffs should be higher anyway.
		And for bringing the manufacturing jobs back to the United States, if we don't have that, then we're just going to be an import colony and not make any jobs or any goods here.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Cecily, here's a headline from the Washington Times.
		On top of what's happening already, Donald Trump yesterday threatening 104% tariffs on China.
		You said that they should only limit the tariffs if they're wildly ridiculous.
		What would be a wildly ridiculous tariff in your mind?
unidentified		That would be a little bit ridiculous.
		But China does have a 60% tax, a 60% tariff on us already.
		And for people who are saying that they want jobs to be overseas and pay people $2 an hour for slave labor is morally wrong.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Cecily in Columbia, Maryland.
		This is Devin in Pittsburgh.
		Democrat, good morning to the Steel City.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you doing today?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Doing well, Devin.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		I just think that nobody's addressing the elephant in the room.
		The elephant in the room is everybody keeps talking about how, you know, first of all, let me say this, that Congress, yes, they should limit the tariffs.
		Everybody is saying that, you know, they need to bring jobs and businesses back.
		Well, understand that we are not the superpower that we used to be, and we consume from other people in the world.
		The little countries that are coming back to try to negotiate aren't the people that we're getting a lot from.
		It's the big countries like China and other places in the world.
		They ain't negotiating.
		Canada ain't negotiating.
		You know, the people that's our neighbors that are right here on us, they're not negotiating.
		They're firing back with different methods to try to get us to come to the table and lower tariffs.
		So I just think, yeah, that they should limit Trump.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The Trump administration has said 50 nations have already reached out saying they're willing to reduce tariffs in response to what's happening.
		Israel, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, Taiwan, just four of them that are highlighted in the Washington Post story about this.
		Your thoughts on that.
unidentified		So you said the White House said that there's 50, but the Washington Post said there's four.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		No, the Washington Post giving four examples to that, but the White House has said that there are 50 nations that have done it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Happy to go through those four examples, but in terms of bringing people to the negotiation table, I guess is my point.
unidentified		Up until this point, the Republicans and Trump have lied so much.
		I wouldn't believe none of that until I actually seen it.
		You know, what they say, they say different things every day, and it still don't, and it's still, none of it's truthful.
		If you fact check 90% of the stuff they're say, they're lies.
		So why would I believe them, Donald Trump, saying that 50 nations have come to the table?
		I just wouldn't believe it until I actually seen proof.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		Here's what the Washington Post writes about Taiwan, one of the examples they point to.
		In a video message shared yesterday, Taiwan's president said his island democracy would not retaliate against Trump's tariffs and instead proposed negotiations based off a starting point of zero tariffs between Taiwan and the United States.
		Quote, like the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Free Trade Agreement, negotiations on tariffs can start on a Taiwan-U.S. bilateral zero tariffs treatment, said Taiwan's president.
		The U.S. imposed a 32% tariff on Taiwanese goods last week.
		Taiwan's stock market saw its largest one-day drop ever Monday, with leading semiconductor companies among those facing the sharpest sell-offs there.
		That's in Taiwan.
		We've been talking about this legislation, this proposed legislation that would limit the president's tariffs ability.
		A handful of Republicans signing on to this legislation.
		Seven in the Senate.
		Don Bacon, the Republican of Nebraska, introducing this in the House.
		Speaker Johnson was asked about this legislation yesterday.
		This is what he had to say.
unidentified		There's a push by some of your members to give Congress a say.
		John Macon has a bill, to give Congress a say and review the tariffs.
		Why not give Congress the opportunity to have it be a chat?
mike johnson ▲ ● ▼		Congress will weigh in on it, but with the president, with the administration in tandem.
		And I think you've got to give the president the latitude, the runway to do what it is he was elected to do, and that is get this economy going again and get our trade properly balanced with other countries.
		So I think most of the American people understand the necessity of that.
		Listen, we had a $1.2 trillion trade deficit in 2024.
		I don't think that's fair to our country.
		I think the American people understand that, and I think they see a president who's engaging and trying to fix that.
		So we're going to give him the space necessary to do it, and we'll see how the government is going to be able to do it.
unidentified		Do you think administration officials should brief members?
		I mean, some of your members are asking for a briefing.
		I understand the strategy.
mike johnson ▲ ● ▼		His office is directly engaged with members, and we'll have to.
unidentified		Do you expect us to come to the conference, sir?
unidentified		Talk to us.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Speaker Johnson, yesterday, on one of those hallway interviews as he entered his office at the Capitol, it was Sunday on Face the Nation that Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell of Washington spoke about this legislation.
		She's one of the lead sponsors in the Senate of this bill, along with Chuck Grassley of Iowa, the Republican.
		This is Maria Cantwell from Sunday, Sunday.
maria cantwell ▲ ● ▼		The first day of introduction, we signed up seven Republicans.
		So usually you don't get a first introduction and get so many people on board.
		But I think it shows the anxiety that people have.
		I'm sure if they listen to their constituents, consumer challenges are already starting to surface.
		And certainly the stock market's impact on retirement income is shaking a lot of people.
		So I'm sure my colleagues will hear from them.
		Today, consumer groups are announcing and retailers the fact that they want Congress to take this action up.
		And so I think we're hearing from a big segment of the economy that consumer spending is a big part of GDP and they're worried.
margaret brennan ▲ ● ▼		So you've got six Republicans at this point?
maria cantwell ▲ ● ▼		Seven.
unidentified		Seven.
margaret brennan ▲ ● ▼		And now you're saying retailers.
margaret brennan ▲ ● ▼		Like you have CEOs who are on board or industry groups?
maria cantwell ▲ ● ▼		Industry groups like the Retailers Association, the outdoor industry, the consumer electronics groups, Main Street Alliance, organizations who know their bread and butter comes from consumer spending, which is a big part of our economy.
		And so they are very anxious about a plan.
		Listen, I listened to your segment.
		I've never heard so much about fuzzy math in my life.
		And the notion that that chart is getting so much national attention, you know, the letters in Greek alphabet, all this stuff that makes no sense.
		That's what people, consumers are saying.
		How is this helping me in a time of inflation?
		You're adding to my costs with a tax on my consumer goods.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Maria Cantwell from Face the Nation on Sunday talking about this legislation to limit President Trump's tariff ability.
		That's what we're asking you about this morning in this first hour of the Washington Journal.
		It's just after 7:30 on the East Coast, about a half an hour to go here, taking your phone calls on phone lines for Republicans, Democrats, and independents, as usual.
		This is Noah in the Yellowhammer State Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		I was going to call you and let you know.
		I think Congress should be the last ones involved.
gary in oklahoma ▲ ● ▼		Spectre General would be better because we remember Congressmen, you know, they usually get inside information they know news.
unidentified		Like, you know, the visa lady, Nancy Pelosi, when she's speaking of the House, dumped her visa stock.
		And Deborah Wassman Schultz, they become millionaires just making $180,000 a year or $200,000.
		But they get the advantage of knowing all this stuff.
		And I think it's wrong.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Noah, what would you like the Inspectors General to do when it comes to tariffs?
unidentified		Well, that's what I'm saying.
		Congress shouldn't be involved because they misuse the information and make theirselves rich.
		That's why there's so many millionaires.
		And I'm talking about Republicans, too.
		They all do it.
		They get insider information.
		They should not even have stocks and bonds.
		That's what's wrong with America, letting these politicians, because they get the information before it goes out.
		And Deborah Wassman Schultz and Nancy Pelosi and some Republicans use this information.
gary in oklahoma ▲ ● ▼		That's how they become multi-millionaires within two terms of their administration.
unidentified		Everybody knows it.
unidentified		You'd be blind not to know it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Noah in Alabama to Bakersfield, California.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Connie, Independent, good morning.
unidentified		Hello, good morning.
		My thing is that Canada does not, I think the tariffs are good.
		Canada does not like the United States.
		China owes the United States so much money that they have borrowed.
		Why can't they just say, look, I'm going to be your babysitter, but I owe you $100.
		You still pay me, and I'll pay you the $100 later.
		That's not the way it should work.
		They should pay back their loans to the United States, and then they should go from there.
		It doesn't make any sense.
		They should not charge the United States when they owe us money.
		Connie, why do you think it makes us die for them and our military, but they don't even want to lower?
		They do not like us.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Connie in California.
		This is Bernie in the Bluegrass State, Louisville.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, John.
		Absolutely.
		I think Congress should be able to limit the ability of presidents on the tariffs.
		Also, on other issues, too.
		I think they need to reclaim their seat at the table.
		I think they've been sitting on their hands too long.
		They're afraid of a mean tweet.
		I mean, Don Bacon, he's a perfect example of someone who's ready to step out, speak his mind, and take the punishment.
		Now, he's a three-star general.
		I don't think a mean tweet is going to bother him.
		But there are a few in Congress who are Republicans that are stepping out and speaking their mind is what we've been waiting for, too.
		We have to have some guardrails.
		We can't let just one person decide this is how it's going to be.
		No one else has a voice in it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And, Bernie, with Congress reclaiming this authority, would you feel that way if there were a Democrat in the White House versus Donald Trump?
unidentified		It has to go both ways.
		It has to go both ways with the president.
		It doesn't matter if it's Democrat or Republican.
		If you notice, I'm a Democrat, I'll call him Democrat line, but I'm a big fan of Don Bacon.
		I've talked to him many times on your show, and I think we need people, him, Tom Massey.
		If they disagree, they need to just speak their mind and take what punishment is going to be coming to them because you know it's going to be coming.
		But big deal.
		I mean, these guys can take it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How is Tom Massey viewed in Kentucky, a Republican member of the House who at times has opposed Donald Trump and been on the receiving end of some of those mean tweets as you describe them?
unidentified		His numbers, his favorability in his area in northern Kentucky, is in the 70s.
		Gosh, I wish I don't have that type of favorability with my dog.
		I mean, this is not going to hurt the guy.
		So, yes, they need to reclaim their seat.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Bernie, thanks for the call from Kentucky.
		This is Gene in Walderboro, Maine, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Before I tell you about how I feel about the Congress advising the president when it comes to tariffs, I would like to tell you something that we actually experienced because of tariffs.
		We had a small dairy farm in Connecticut, and we sold milk.
		Milk is more highly regulated than oil, I think.
		And it's very hard to make a living selling milk.
		It's so highly regulated.
ma bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, our price started going up, and we started getting enough money to be able to replace our roofs on our barn and stuff like that.
unidentified		And what happened then was Canada sent down freight trains, hundreds of cars long, full of cheese and butter because Canada has a tariff on dairy products in the United States.
		It's a very high tariff.
		I had heard as high as 300.
		I don't know if that's the truth.
		But as soon as they did that, the price of milk plunged to about $9.100 weight, where it had gone up to about $15 or $16.
		So that was what happens to small people from tariffs.
		Now, when it comes to Congress, if we could ever get a good Congress to regulate things, it would be one thing.
		But we're not going to get a good Congress based on the way we elect people now.
ma bell ▲ ● ▼		We go by personalities and talking points.
unidentified		And I don't think that we should take the power away from the president to negotiate deals using any tool that he needs.
		When you get Congress in there, you're going to have too many cooks in the kitchen.
		And that's what I think.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Gene, are you still in the milk business?
unidentified		No, no, no, no.
		We retired years ago, but I'll tell you what.
		I never thought I would see the day that anyone would try to do anything about the tariffs.
		I thought that was just a fact of life.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Gene in Maine, Walderboro in eastern Maine.
		This is Dennis in Garden City, Michigan, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		I think Congress should definitely be involved with this.
		What you're seeing right now is just a power grab from one person.
		He's destroying basically the American economy with this.
		You're seeing, you know, trillions of dollars just vaporize and it's gone.
		And these jobs are not coming back within, you know, a month, two months.
		It would take years to get this stuff back.
		I mean, years.
		And then you have to train the people.
		And some of these countries, you know, if you look at like Vietnam, they're using that as an example.
		There's no way that they can buy stuff from the American people for what they make, you know, the workers.
		You know what I mean?
		Hopefully I'm trying to make myself sound clear here.
		Like, you're not going to get people to buy, you know, stuff over here when the guy's making $40 an hour.
		You can't sell that over to some of these other countries like that.
		And we are a consumer nation.
		That's it.
		They gave away, you know, manufacturing a long time ago, you know.
		So that's about all I got to say about it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Dennis in Garden City, Michigan.
		About 20 minutes left in this segment.
		Here's where we are on Capitol Hill today.
		The House is in at 10 a.m. Eastern.
		The Senate is in at 10 a.m. Eastern.
		You can expect plenty of talk about trade and tariffs on the floor of the House and Senate.
		Also, today, you can expect more of that conversation in the Senate Finance Committee hearing on new tariffs.
		The U.S. Trade Representative Jameson Greer will testify before the Senate Finance Committee.
		10 a.m. Eastern.
		We're airing that on C-SPAN 3, also on c-span.org, of course, and the free C-SPAN Now video app.
		You can watch that after this program ends at 10 a.m. Eastern today.
		Taking your phone calls about Congress, whether they should limit President Trump's tariff ability.
		Phone lines for Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.
		This is Larry in Texas, a Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		Congress should definitely be.
		I mean, you know, there's three parts of government.
		That's what they was there for.
		People, wake up, man.
		These people, companies are not coming back.
		We have, I'm in Houston, where there's nothing but refiners and everything.
		America has to ship most of the oil they have to other countries because they can refine it over here.
		Why?
		Because the refineries are also old.
		These billionaires ain't going to put money in it to keep the oil that we get and we drill over here and refine over here.
		So if y'all people think that these people, these companies are coming back, please wake up.
		Ask yourself.
		We made the dollar strong.
		It wasn't manufacturing or nothing like that, ladies and gentlemen.
		The dollar became strong after World War II.
		Why?
		Because America joined the war late and was producing everything for these countries, both sides, not just one.
		Not just one.
		And y'all talking about tariffs are good.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Larry, when you say America was producing materials for both sides, you mean both the Access and Allies?
unidentified		Before they turned it to both sides, before they turned the war.
unidentified		That's going to Germany.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It's Larry in Texas.
		This is Michael in Oregon, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		I'm afraid Congress is wasting time trying to do this legislatively because they can't get veto proof legislation passed.
john alexander ▲ ● ▼		The only solution is for them to bring a case in the Supreme Court because the Constitution is quite clear that the power to levy tariffs is supposed to be with Congress.
unidentified		And they're not allowed to even give it away with some kind of emergency legislation.
		This is much like the line-item veto issue several years ago.
		And they tried to do that legislatively.
		And finally, somebody in Congress recognized that they didn't have the power to give that power away to the president, so they took it to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court indeed struck it down.
		So that's the absolute only solution that they can use.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Michael, what you're saying is Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 here is clear, and somebody just needs to reassert that, and you think the Supreme Court will side with them.
unidentified		Well, I'm not sure about this Supreme Court, but all I'm saying is that that's the only way it can be done.
		You know that the President is going to veto any legislation they pass, and they certainly won't override his veto.
		So that's absolutely the only solution to this.
		And I might add, I hear a lot of talking heads, so-called smart people, pondering and pondering about what is the real final reason for all of this stuff.
		What's he got in mind?
		What does he want out of this?
		It should be quite clear, and he's said it many times, he's trying to eliminate the federal income tax.
		He even would like to get rid of the IRS and replace it entirely with consumption taxes.
		And that's all tariffs are, is consumption taxes.
		So please, people, try to get through all these talking heads if you can and tell them to quit wasting time pondering this whole issue.
		There's only one obvious reason for this.
		He wants to get rid of the income tax.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And Michael, just to be clear, to you, if it was between an income tax or consumption taxes, what would you prefer?
unidentified		Well, obviously the income tax, but I would prefer a wealth tax.
unidentified		I think wealth taxes are the only logical and the only logically defensive tax is a wealth tax.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What would a wealth tax do?
unidentified		A wealth tax is like a property tax.
		You basically are, we tax in accordance with what we have to lose if the government fails.
		And so we all have a stake in it, and we should be paying accordingly.
		It's much like an insurance policy.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Michael, thanks for the call from Oregon.
		You mentioned the Supreme Court should note yesterday some significant actions from the Supreme Court on the deportations front.
		First, this story from the Washington Post, a divided Supreme Court on Monday cleared the way for the Trump administration to use a controversial wartime authority to deport alleged members of a Venezuelan gang, but said deportees must first have an opportunity to challenge their deportation.
		It was a 5-4 ruling.
		It didn't touch on the underlying legal questions about the government's use of the Alien Enemies Act.
		Instead, the majority ruled that the five Venezuelan immigrants who challenged the policy did so in the wrong court, leaving open the possibility that those targeted for deportation could refile their case in another jurisdiction.
		And that's the story from the Washington Post.
		And then one more story on this front.
		The high court pauses in order to return a man from El Salvador is the headline of the story from the Washington Post.
		The fate of a Maryland man mistakenly deported to that megaprison in El Salvador, remained in limbo on Monday after the Supreme Court briefly paused an order requiring the Trump administration to bring him back to the United States.
		A lower court judge had told the government to fly the man back to the U.S. by 11:59 p.m. on Monday.
		The Salvadorian immigrant who is married to a U.S. citizen was deported despite a court ruling forbidding it.
		The timeline indicates the Supreme Court likely to act quickly on this case, so more to come out of the Supreme Court.
		Back to your phone calls, though, on the issue of tariffs.
		With about 10 minutes left here, this is Larry in Vermont.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I think this tariff business is a scam.
		Just to give more, because they want the tax break for the millionaires, billionaires, which don't pay taxes anyway.
		You know, they think Trump's trying to run the country like a business.
		Well, I grew up in a business called dairy farming.
		And one thing a farmer never does is sell his pop-producing kale.
		And that's what Trump is doing.
		Fixing it so the billionaires don't have to pay any taxes.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Larry in Vermont.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		This is Dave, Hale, Michigan, Independent.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Good morning, John.
		I'm mind-boggled, and somebody's got to try to clarify what I don't understand.
		I used to go to Canada a lot for trips.
		If you go up there and you try to buy a home on the exchange rate of the American dollar, you pay a certain exchange rate.
		It's like $54,000, if I remembered right, $39,000 Canadian thousand for a home up there, or whatever.
		Now, why is it different for real estate property rather than it is for product?
mark adams ▲ ● ▼		Where does the product to real estate and the exchange rate?
unidentified		When you go over to Canada, we used to exchange our money right away so it was easier for everybody over there to figure out what we paid.
		And then when you come back, then you get your money back.
		So somebody's got to clarify where the problem is.
		Is it because we're not evaluating the American and Canadian products that come over here and then doing this in the right way?
		Or what am I missing here?
		Tell me.
		I don't know.
		That's all I got, John.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Dave in Michigan.
		Steve, Freeland, Maryland, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		So we want the Congress that has abdicated its responsibility for the past 45 years when we outsourced and offshored all our jobs in the 80s under Bill Clinton.
		That's what we signed into law, outsourcing and offshoring.
		Now, the Congress, for the past 30 years, Mr. Burchett was just there a month ago, my 30-day call, who clearly said, I sit on the budget committee.
		And Steve, we haven't done a budget, proudly said we haven't done a budget for 30 years.
		And now you want Congress to get involved in tariffs?
		What we need to have is the outrage that we have for Mr. Trump should all be sent to the 535 elected officials.
		Are we going to get 12 appropriation bills through this year?
		The answer to that question is no.
		Are we going to print another $10, $12 trillion this year?
		Doesn't matter what the president was, Democrat or Republican, the answer is yes.
		We need the legislative branch to do its job.
		Its job is to pass, its number one job is to pass a budget.
		Now, it would be wonderful if we could pass a balanced budget or from the Bowles Commission that we've talked about for the past 25 years, reducing the spending in our federal government.
		So, Steve, why wouldn't we need to do that?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Because wouldn't reasserting its trade authority under Article 1 be Congress doing its job?
unidentified		John, you and I have talked about the legislative branch and its failure for 40 years now in this country.
		40 years.
		And what I'd like to say is, are you ready?
		Congress to do what it's always done, just go back to sleep when we need the rubber stamp to pass the $10 trillion this year, rubber stamp it.
		You have no alternative but to rubber stamp it.
		Why is that?
		Because we don't manufacture anything in this country anymore.
		And when it comes to steel and drug compounds and aluminum and every other thing that we get from every other nation, we're never going to have a surplus of anything because we're bringing everything into the country as a consumer nation.
		That's what we turn this nation into, a consumption, consumer, buy goods nation.
		So if we do not address, and God forbid, Congress does its job, Congress never does its job.
		That's where we should all be calling and saying, hey, guys, could we possibly please get down to pre-COVID spending or even better yet, start doing some cost cutting?
		16% is all we're trying to get rid of.
		16%.
		If we would have done the Bowles Commission and done the 5% each year out of every budget, we would have been there.
		But once again, Congress has abdicated their duty.
		And now all of a sudden, they're waking up.
		And the only reason they're waking up is because they're hearing it from all the lobbyist groups.
		And everybody's screaming in their ear.
		And the sky is falling.
		The sky is falling.
		Now, when the stuff hits the fan, we're going to be standing around with our pants down around our ankles while China is invading our country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's Steve in Maryland.
		Just about five minutes left here in this first segment of the Washington Journal.
		Two interesting pieces on this topic about tariffs, both from conservative, usually conservative op-ed pages, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times.
		Starting first with the Wall Street Journal.
		It's Art Laffer, Steve Moore, on their op-ed today.
		Steve Moore, obviously, C-SPAN viewers know him from his appearances on this program.
		Steve Moore, former economic advisor to President Trump, the column of the headline of their column, A Win-Win Exit Strategy for Trump on Tariffs.
		They write that Mr. Trump should give a globally televised address announcing to the world that the U.S. is ready to drop its tariffs and industry subsidies to zero tomorrow on any nation that does the same.
		That would be the ultimate reciprocal tariff policy.
		President Trump and the U.S. would regain the moral high ground, they write, in trade disputes.
		It would be enlightening as well to see which supposedly free trade nations accept Mr. Trump's challenge here.
		Who better to pull off what could become the greatest art of the deal negotiation in world history?
		It would restore a free, fair, and unfettered global trading system, they write.
		Everyone everywhere would get richer.
		The American economy would be great again, and Donald Trump would win, they say, the 2025 Nobel Peace Prize.
		Steve Moore and Art Laffer in their column today.
		We take you from there to the lead editorial in today's Washington Times, the editorial board talking about Donald Trump's tariff policy, the headline, unfaking the economy.
		Mr. Trump's tariff policy has brought 50 nations willing to reduce import barriers for U.S.-made products to the table.
		Cambodia, India, Israel, Taiwan, and Vietnam are the closest to striking deals.
		They write, the pledge by India, the world's most populous nation, is significant.
		But the true target here of Mr. Trump's radical policy is China.
		The Chinese Communist Policy Party uses slave labor, sometimes figuratively and often literally, to flood U.S. markets with cheap goods that have made it impossible for U.S. firms to compete.
		That's why Mr. Trump won't zero out any tariffs, they write.
		Wall Street is equally afraid of the trade war between the superpowers.
		U.S. markets nosedived on Thursday and Friday with the Dow Jones industrial average down 13% since the inauguration.
		Democrats, on the other hand, they write, are thrilled.
		They believe economic calamity is their ticket to winning the midterm elections.
		Yet history cautions against wishful thinking.
		Nine months into President Reagan's first term, uncertainty about his policy sent the Dow tumbling 12%.
		The bear market continued into 1982, with pundits predicting a bloodbath for Republicans.
		By the time the Gipper left office, long-term prosperity drove the Dow skyward with 147% overall growth.
		The editorial board of the Washington Times.
		Time here for just a couple more calls.
		This is Stan in Florida, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, since he acted this trade war, don't forget this guy went bankrupt six times.
		Now he's trying to bankrupt the government.
		The cell phone I'm holding right in my hand now would cost $5,000 to get it again.
		All your clothes are made in Taiwan and all that.
		All your clothes prices are going to go up.
		Look at everything in that room that you're touching.
		Somewhere down here, it was made in another country.
		We don't make enough stuff in the United States to do that.
		Everything will go sky high.
		Auto parts, sky high.
		Everything will go sky high.
		This guy, last time he promised this, he had to give the farmers millions of dollars.
		He had to bail them out.
		Build them out.
		Look, he did this the last time.
		He had to give them, I think, over $600 million.
		You're looking at a guy that went bankrupt six times.
		He's bankrupting the country now.
		I've been calling my senator.
		He won't pick up the phone.
		They don't pick up the phone.
		Try to call the Republican and tell them to stop.
		I'm 80.
		I don't have the time to recoup the money.
		I lost, I had $150,000 in the stock market.
		I lost 25% in March.
		I don't know what I'm going to lose in April, but I'm scared to death because this guy is creating a worldwide war.
		And you got a computer in here?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, Stan.
unidentified		Look at the computer where it was made.
		You got a toaster?
		Look where it was made.
		Somewhere along the line, that thing, apart in that thing, comes from another country.
		Everything doesn't, we don't make it.
		Bananas are going to go sky high.
		Coffee's going to go sky high.
		This guy bankrupted himself six times, and we'll listen to him.
		He's been talking about TARP since he was in his 30s, and it don't work.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let's stand in Florida.
		Time for one more call.
		This is Ernestine in California.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
		I just wanted to say that I believe that Congress should regulate the tariffs and they should be involved in it because I don't think that the Constitution allows for the president to just do whatever he wants to do.
		But when you clearly see that a person is doing something that is contrary to the welfare of the country, then they should exercise their power and intervene.
		And on the issue of tariffs, too, I think a lot of time you don't hear people talking about the fact that corporations went overseas looking for cheap labor and also to be able to come back and make a bigger profit by bringing these goods back to America.
		And for Americans, it was a cheaper price.
		And so it was sort of like a win-win for everyone.
		And they were also able to avoid paying taxes.
		And they also established headquarters in the countries where they had manufacturing, which allowed them not to have to pay the full taxes on their earnings.
		And lastly, I really believe that this is an affront on the middle class and the working class.
		I think there are the 1% have never liked the middle class because we've been able to own homes and businesses and so forth.
		And it's interfered with their ability to make even more money.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Ernestine in California, our last caller in this first segment of the Washington Journal.
		Stick around.
		Plenty more to talk about this morning, including up next.
		We will be joined by Ronna Epting, Executive Director of the Group.
		Move On.
		We'll discuss the Democratic Party agenda and strategies to counter the Trump administration.
		And later, Family Research Council President Tony Perkins joins us to discuss the Trump administration's approach to family-related issues.
		Stick around.
		We'll be right back.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		The United States will implement reciprocal tariffs on other nations.
unidentified		As President Trump moves to impose reciprocal tariffs on several U.S. trade partners, Jameson Greer, U.S. Trade Representative, will testify before two committee hearings on the President's 2025 trade policy agenda.
		First, he appears today before the Senate Finance Committee and then on Wednesday before the House Ways and Means Committee.
		Watch live today, beginning at 10 a.m. Eastern on C-SPAN 3.
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		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		C-SPAN viewers are familiar with the progressive advocacy group Move On.
		Ronna Epting is the executive director, has served since 2019.
		And Ms. Epting, I want to start with the rallies, the hands-off rallies this weekend on Saturday.
		What role did MoveOn play in those rallies that took place in all 50 states in Washington, D.C.?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, Saturday was a great day for people that care about what's happening in this country and wanted to speak up.
		MoveOn has millions of members all across the country, and our role is to give people information and the tools to make their voices heard with their lawmakers.
		And that's exactly what we've been doing for 27 years.
		And that's what we were doing this Saturday.
		We were tapping into the energy that we've been seeing since Donald Trump took office for the second time.
		And we noticed that there is just organic, genuine, authentic concern about what's coming out of this administration.
		And we saw an opportunity.
		And with a set of partners, we said, let's help the people make their voices heard.
		And so that's what we did.
		And we had over 1,300 actions on Saturday.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So what did those rallies do?
		What's the message you take from them?
		What should lawmakers take from them?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, the challenge is, and it was responding to this challenge, is, you know, Trump administration intentionally has been driving a flood the zone strategy running on all cylinders, very aggressively driving policies and executive orders that quite honestly have been offensive and concerning to millions of Americans.
		And so these actions on Saturday were about, you know, the folks have heard it, around hands-off, hands-off our Social Security, our Medicaid, our education, hands-off veterans' benefits.
		It was hands-off our rights, our constitutional rights, our right to free speech.
		We've been seeing a lot of attacks from this administration around threatening to cut these programs, threatening our rights around the First Amendment.
		People are being disappeared and deported with no due process.
		So it was a number of issues, and we saw signs all across on so many, so many concerns that people have.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And a lot of discussion after these rallies on what they could mean for two years from now, for election 2026, the midterm elections.
		A lot of questions on Capitol Hill to members of Congress already looking ahead to 2026.
		Republican Majority Whip John Barrasso was talking about Republican prospects in 2026.
		I want to play that and then get your response.
john barrasso ▲ ● ▼		President Trump won based on two things, that the Democrats were the party of high prices and an open border.
		No one doubted President Trump's ability to get the border closed.
		137,000 illegal immigrants in March of last year, Biden, this past much down to 7,000.
		So he has been able to do that.
		The Republicans are going to be judged on the economy, which is why I'm not going to be able to do that.
margaret brennan ▲ ● ▼		The Defense Chairman's saying inflation is going to potentially go up and there's great uncertainty.
john barrasso ▲ ● ▼		That's why I want to get this comprehensive economic plan in place as soon as possible.
		The certainty that the tax increases are not going to be there, the certainty that we have American energy and those jobs, the certainty we're bringing jobs back into the country, all of those things are going to make sure that by the election, 18 months from now, that people say, yeah, we're on the right path.
		Republicans have gotten the country back.
		The country is back on track.
		I mean, right now, from, I think it's even your own CBS poll, in terms of right track, wrong track, right direction, wrong direction, we're at the highest we've been in 20 years in terms of the direction the country is heading.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		John Barrasso is saying there that people are happy with where the country is heading, the right track, wrong track numbers.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What would your response be to that, especially in the wake of what we saw from those rallies this weekend?
unidentified		Yeah, I'm not so sure about that.
		I mean, we saw over 3 million, some reporting 5 million people that came out all across the country and, you know, blue states like New York City and 54 actions in the state of Florida.
		I mean, we had a protest in Ashland, Wisconsin, which is a deep red area for Trump.
		We had 8,000 people show up in a town of 7,800, which means people all across that region drove to Ashland to attend those protests.
		So I think John Barroso should maybe look around, listen to his constituents.
		These are folks everywhere across the country, and they're highly concerned.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Ronna Epting is our guest joining us and taking your phone calls on phone lines as usual.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		Democrats 202-748-8000.
		Independents 202-748-8002.
		And as folks are calling in, who would you say is the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
unidentified		The people.
		The people that showed up on Saturday, the people that are making their voices heard.
		We're seeing a lot of new potential, new possibilities about who the leaders of the party will be.
		But this is a really changing and shifting moment for the left.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You wrote a letter to members of Congress last month on what's happening in this country right now and what you want to see from Congress.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What did you tell members of Congress and what sort of response have you gotten?
unidentified		Yeah, we were telling them the base is very upset.
		They're afraid.
		They're concerned.
		They're angry.
		And these emotions are very potent and that Democrats have the opportunity here to either leverage this energy for good and funnel it into constructive action, constructive ways, or they can ignore it or be frustrated by it.
		And I think that what we're seeing is some Democrats are taking us up on that offer.
		Senator Corey Booker last week with his 25-hour filibuster and the call to the moral conscience of this country is a great example.
		I mean, he had over 300 views on TikTok around this alone.
		And we're seeing others traverse the country, Representative Maxwell Frost, Senator Chris Murphy, AOC.
		You know, they're really speaking to the people and meeting them where they're at.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How have they been ignoring it?
		How have they been frustrated by it?
		What are the problems you see with the approach so far?
unidentified		I think some, I think many people, many Democrats are trying to get their footing and figure out how they want to navigate this moment.
unidentified		And we disagree with those that have decided to downplay the concerns or to not be sounding the alarm everywhere and anywhere around what this administration is doing and the impacts it has on people's lives and livelihoods.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, an issue that very much played a role in campaign 2024: how should Democratic leaders address the issue of illegal immigrants in this country and deportations?
unidentified		Look, what we're seeing out of this administration is a cruel, indiscriminate, indiscriminate policy that is rounding up innocent people without due process and deporting them or disappearing them.
		We don't know what's happening.
		Like, people do want immigration policy that works.
		They want a system that makes sense, that actually processes applicants in this country in a timely manner.
		They did not vote for Donald Trump for cruelty, and that's what we're seeing.
		And it's reckless how they're implementing this, and it's just the beginning from what we understand.
		We're highly concerned about how they're taking.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, another issue from 2024 that Republicans talked a lot about: how should Democrats in 2026 address the issue of the war in Gaza?
unidentified		Oh, well, I guess that determined that that depends on what's happening in 2026.
		But, look, I think that, by and large, the American people do not support war.
		They do not support indiscriminate killing of innocent people.
		And Democrats should be on the side of people and safety and saving lives.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And then, one more from 2024: how should Democrats today address the issue of trans athletes in women's sports?
unidentified		That great, you're asking me all the tough questions.
		I mean, look, like Democrats should be on the side of protecting the most vulnerable in our country.
		They should be on the side of ensuring that we are not the bullies in the room.
		We are the ones that believe there's a place in this country for everybody.
		And I think that throwing communities under the bus because it's politically expedient is not the way to win here.
		We want to have a contrast with what we're seeing in this Trump administration, which is driving a cruel, indiscriminate, reckless, chaotic set of policies.
		And Democrats should be for compassion.
		They should be for reason.
		They should be for compromise.
		They should be for fixing problems.
		But they should not give up that moral high ground that we so desperately need and that the people of this country are demanding.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Plenty of callers from the people of this country.
		This is Bradley in Michigan.
		Line for Democrats.
		You're up first with Ronna Epting.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, thank you.
		Yeah, thank you.
		I'm just thrilled, Ronna, to be able to speak with you at this time.
		I've had this idea a long time.
		I think with all of the spinning around and loss of energy trying to fend off every crazy move, put it into one issue: health care for all.
		Form a coalition.
		Bernie and AOC can head it up.
		Get Democrats to sign on.
		Those that don't, primary, have Maverick Republicans.
		You may get them also.
		70% of the American people are in favor of it.
		So center in, hammer that issue, and focus all the energy into a great thing.
		And I think the result would be amazing.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Bradley, thanks for the call.
unidentified		Well, Bradley, I don't disagree with you.
		I think that's a great idea.
		You know, the majority of people in this country believe health care should be affordable, accessible, it should work.
		And that is the beauty of living in one of the most wealthiest countries of the world.
		And unfortunately, what we're seeing out of the Trump Musk administration right now is threats to actually gut Medicaid, threats to social security, and these critical lifeline programs that actually help create a safety net for the United States of America and its citizens.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Great Falls, Virginia.
		This is Daniel Republican.
		Good morning.
		You're on with Ronna Epting.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		A couple things I wanted to ask your guest.
		First of all, she talks about free speech.
		I'd like to know what she thinks about actual brave protesters in Gaza right now who are protesting at the risk of their lives against Hamas.
		We've heard a lot of radical leftists around the U.S. who have gone out and they've stood up for these Hamas protesters around the country.
		They say nothing when you have people who are actually protesting against Hamas in Gaza right now.
		I'd like to know what she thinks about free speech when it comes to UC Davis over the weekend.
		There was a turning point USA event out there, and Antifa violently shut down their event.
		They wouldn't let them speak, which has happened over and over again throughout UC Davis, UC Berkeley, and other crazy places like that.
		I'd like to know what she thinks about the violent left going around firebombing, Molotov cocktailing, keying Teslas because they don't agree for some reason now that Elon Musk has been made their enemy now, all of a sudden, it's a complete 180 in about five minutes.
		What does she think about that?
		I'll tell you the left.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Daniel, a lot there.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me give our guest a chance to respond.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Hi, Daniel.
		Thank you for calling.
		Look, I'll say at the very fundamental level, I believe in the right to be able to speak and voice and voice your opinion and ensure your voice is heard and to be safe knowing that you can do that.
		And we all as Americans have this free speech constitutional right to do that.
		And we should be able to do that without a fear of being physically in danger.
		That does not include the ability to destroy property.
		Don't support that.
		And that does not include the ability to physically harm anyone.
		But the beauty of the United States of America and one of the bedrocks of living here in this country is that we all have a constitutional right to protected free speech and that we should be able to exercise that right as long as we are not physically harming anyone or destroying property.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Anthony, Detroit, Michigan, Independent, good morning.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		In my view, the reason the Democrats have the identity crisis and they've been losing so much is because there's, I mean, there's a misunderstanding of what they're even for.
		They're like 2,000 Republicans now.
		I mean, you called the guests progressive, but to me, I think it's more accurately described as neoliberal.
		And the protests were neoliberal.
		So like Medicare for all, that's the bumper sticker progressive agenda item.
		But when the Democrats controlled the Congress and the presidency in 2021 and 2022, their so-called squad didn't even push the leadership to do anything towards Medicare for all.
		So they have no credibility, the progressives.
		And then anti-war, the guest doesn't answer the question about Gaza.
		What should be the position on Israel and Gaza?
		So that's a total punt.
		And part of the agenda for hands-off was hands-off of NATO, North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
		That's the most war-mongering organization there's ever been in the human history.
		So if you're supporting NATO, you're not anti-war.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Ronna Epting.
unidentified		Thank you, Anthony.
		Yes, I mean, one of the beauties of Saturday is that there were so many people out there protesting and making their voices heard on dozens and dozens of issues, whether it was science or whether it was health care.
		But I'll also acknowledge the challenges.
		We don't all agree on everything, and it's just not strategic or feasible to ensure there's 100% alignment when you have a national mass distributed protest such as Saturday.
		So, you know, one of the additional beauties of the Democratic tent is that we're a big tent.
		We don't all agree on everything.
		And the role progressives play in organizations like Move On is to push the Democratic Party more to be more inclusive, more progressive, and embrace these values.
		And sometimes that can be a strategic moment and decision based on the power that we believe we actually can leverage.
		But yeah, I mean, we don't all agree on everything.
		And I think that's one of the wonderful things about Democrats is that it doesn't mean we're going to kick you out of the party.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So what should Democrats run on?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What issue should they focus on headed into 2026?
unidentified		Look, when we asked our membership this, they're really right now the most concerned about not necessarily the specific policy prescription.
		So let's not debate over Medicare for all or the Affordable Care Act.
		They're more concerned about the underlying values.
		People deserve affordable, accessible health care in this country.
		And they're more concerned about seeing Democrats fight and put up a fight against this administration and stop the clawback, the rollback of rights and critical social safety nets.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So hold the line as opposed to propose new.
unidentified		I think it's both.
		I think they want to see people out there fighting.
		They want to see people out there undeniably fighting for the people, not for wealthy special interests.
		And they want to see a new vision and a new pathway forward.
		There are a lot of wonderful ideas that some Democrats have put forward in the past.
		I think that this is a moment where the party needs to start coalescing around a clear vision.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Ron in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Yeah, my concern is waste, fraud, and abuse.
		Who's going to rebuild Palestine after all this destruction?
		You know, that's not one penny of American money should be used for that.
		And of course, that's why Netanyahu is hanging around the White House, the war criminal.
		And the other thing is about waste, fraud, and abuse.
		Talk about traveling to Mars.
		We have four space agencies, basically.
		The Air Force, Space Force, SpaceX, and NASA.
		And you talk about waste, fraud, and abuse.
		And they want to go to Mars.
		We have people in this wing on this planet that are starving.
		And we should be helping them and not having containers of food rotting in some port.
		It's a shame that they, you know, and also Trump inherited the best economy in 35 years, according to the Zandy, Mark Zandy, and the analytical group that he's with.
		So, you know, a lot of people just didn't vote this last election because they were upset about the candidate being only allowed to really campaign for 107 days.
		So Trump was campaigning for almost four years.
		So let's keep those things in mind.
		Thank you, Ron.
		You know, you mentioned waste, fraud, and abuse, which is a big discussion happening across the country right now.
		And I think most Americans agree.
		We don't want to see our tax dollars wasted.
		We don't want to see them going to corrupt for corrupt reasons.
		And I think the major debate is around how do we address this?
		How do we, and what actually constitutes waste, fraud, or abuse.
		And so you see Elon Musk and his Doge apparatus trying to rummage through the federal government and they are making claim after claim that they're finding waste or fraud or abuse.
		But I think the challenge is that a lot of these are lies.
		And for example, the Social Security Administration, you know, they have eliminated a number of jobs at the SSA.
		They're asserting claims that millions of dead people are receiving Social Security checks, but this is actually not true.
		So I think we need to actually have a serious approach to this as opposed to a reckless and chaotic one that is lobbying accusations without actual factual proof.
		And I've talked to federal workers.
		They've said, we can tell you where this is.
		Work with us.
		Instead of firing us and kicking us out the door, we actually know what programs are working and where there could be some cost savings.
		And we can really address this issue that is important.
		I mean, we pay billions of dollars into taxes in this country, and we do care how they're used.
		And we ultimately want our taxes used to support our communities, our families, our neighbors, so that we can have a decent life and we can not just get by, but get ahead.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You bring up Elon Musk.
		I want to read part of a piece from Jonathan Turley writing in the New York Post.
		He's a columnist there, law professor Jonathan Turley.
		He also comes on this program on occasion.
		This is what he writes in his most recent column.
		The left decries political violence like January 6th, but is largely silent as Teslas are set on fire and cyber trucks are covered with graffiti.
		It promotes boycotts and rallies with a wink at the vandals.
		While other billionaires from George Soros to Mark Zuckerberg have spent big on elections for the left, Elon Musk is somehow uniquely evil because he gives money to Republicans.
		Democrats will defend every illegal immigrant, but then mean that a foreigner, Musk is a naturalized American, is meddling in our government.
		How would you respond to that?
unidentified		Well, there was a lot in there.
		So I would say in terms of why is Musk different, Musk has been handed the keys to the federal government.
		He is physically going into these agencies with a team of very young men and gaining access to private, very secure information and unilaterally making decisions about who gets to who they're kicking out the door.
		He is employing fear tactics to actually demoralize the federal workforce.
		And he is recklessly making decisions about who is being fired and so much, so recklessly that you see reporting after reporting that they're recalling some employees back because they accidentally cut critical programs like cancer research or what have you.
		So it really does matter how people carry out these policies.
		And the challenge with Musk is his reckless and cruel and fear-mongering strategy that people don't trust.
		And I think that's actually at the core here of what we saw on Saturday is the Trump administration and Elon Musk are not bothering to build trust with the voters of this country.
		And they're not even trying.
		And that is core problem here.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The images from those rallies, you get to see a lot of the signs.
		A lot of the images that I saw had signs that were focused on Elon Musk.
		I don't know if you saw that at the rally that you were at.
		Do you think, not that Donald Trump would ask you, but do you think that Elon Musk will be around long enough for Democrats to run against him headed into 2026?
unidentified		Who knows?
		I mean, there's been reports that maybe Elon will be transitioning out of his role soon.
		But, you know, again, we can't trust anything we've heard out of this administration.
		They say one thing and they do another.
		Would it behoove Democrats to have Elon Musk out there in the sphere so we can run against him?
		I think what we saw in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, not such a bad thing.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The latest Marquette Law School poll, Elon Musk's personal favorability rating at 60%, less than 40% favorable.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		No surprise to you?
unidentified		No.
		I mean, like, look, he's not a man who cares what people think.
		He doesn't have empathy, nor does he believe empathy is a good quality.
		And I think it shows in how he's maneuvering and navigating through all the work he's driving through Doge.
		And this is not a good look for President Trump.
		I'm not sure why he's keeping him around.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		About 15 minutes left with Ronna Epting this morning, Executive Director of Move On.
		As we said, you've been in that role since 2019.
		You plan to step down this coming summer.
unidentified		Why?
		Five years is a long time to run a rapid response national political organization.
		And MoveOn's been around for 27 years, and we have a history of executive directors lasting, like, you know, sticking around for about five or six years.
		So it's my time to go on and do new things.
		And we're excited for this leadership transition.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What are the new things you plan to do?
unidentified		I'm not sure yet.
unidentified		I'm taking a moment because I really want to assess kind of the state of the political landscape and figure out how I can be the most constructive and helpful to rebuild this country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is there a succession plan at Move On?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who comes after you?
unidentified		We're in a hiring process right now.
unidentified		I will be around through the end of the year to support the incoming executive director and ensure that there's a smooth transition for the organization.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And how big is the Move On organization?
		What's a yearly budget?
		What is this person going to be stepping into?
unidentified		Yeah, so we have millions of members all across the country in every congressional district in every state.
		And we are, by and large, funded by our members.
		An average donation of our members is around under $30 a month.
		So we are a small dollar-funded organization.
		We have a total budget of around $25, $30 million.
		$30 million budget varies depending on the year and how much our members decide to give and support the work.
		But we exist to support our members, give them the information, the tools they need to make their voices heard with decision makers.
		And we've been doing it for a while now.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And what do you use that $30 million a year to do?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What are the biggest spending items for you?
unidentified		Yeah, biggest spending items are reaching out to folks, giving them opportunities to take action.
		So you have a mo, you know, we reach out to folks via text, which unfortunately is very pricey.
		But it's a really great way to directly reach out to people, say, this is what's happening in Congress today.
		Call your member.
		Here are some resources that you can use.
		We spend a lot of money doing activations like we did on Saturday to ensure we have security, to ensure people have training around de-escalation, so to ensure safety, and all of the resources we need to make sure it's a successful day.
		And we do organizing, we help support our members to do the same in their districts and with their members of Congress.
		So a lot of costs associated with this.
		Again, all in the interest of making it easy for people to exercise their First Amendment rights, to speak their mind, to make their opinions heard with the people that they've elected to lead them.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And you were at the DC hands-off rally on Saturday.
		We aired that rally on C-SPAN.
		Viewers can watch it.
		Who was the most interesting person that you heard from on that rally on Saturday?
		What will you remember from that?
unidentified		I mean, everybody.
		I will say I don't want to pick.
		They're all wonderful.
		But one memorable speaker is Reverend Barber from North Carolina.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		He's been his campaign is the people's, the poor people's campaign campaign.
unidentified		Um, he.
		He is the moral call for justice, and he's an incredible actor in this space.
		He, for a long time, has been doing the work of social justice, led by faith in this country, and he does it with such a big heart.
		And he really helps bring people together around a moral call, not just left or right, but right or wrong.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Also, somebody who comes on this program and takes viewer calls.
		More viewer calls for you.
		Plenty waiting.
		This is David in Englewood, New Jersey.
		Republican, good morning.
unidentified		Yes, I wanted to just say, just make a comment, and then I have two quick questions.
		I keep hearing people talk about how wealthy this country is, but in reality, the country is $37 trillion in debt.
		And we had a budget deficit of $1.8 trillion the last fiscal year starts ending in September.
		So no one ever talks about how in the world we're going to pay down this debt, and everybody wants new programs.
		It's financial insanity.
		So that's my comment.
		My question is, where was moveon.org when it came to Joe Biden's decline, his mental decline the last two years?
		And everyone from James Clyborne to Chuck Schumer and all these leftists kept telling us lies that this man was sharp as a tack.
		And I wanted to know, just honestly, where was moveon.org?
		Did they say that he needed to step down or did not, or now they're trying to rewrite the whole script?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		David, got your question.
unidentified		Thank you, David.
		So first I want to talk about, yes, this is one of the wealthiest countries, if not, I don't have my dad in front of me, but if not the wealthiest country in the world.
		And when we say that, we mean really the people who live here, the wealth that we have here in the United States.
		And I think the key issue is that if only the wealthy paid their fair share in taxes, we would not be in this financial conundrum that folks are concerned with.
		We'd be able to afford things like health care for all.
		We'd be able to afford a wealth of resources here in the United States.
		So it's really about a lot of these uber wealthy folks, billionaires that live here in the United States, are not paying their fair share, including Elon Musk.
		And that is the core issue that we talk about and that our members are concerned about.
		In terms of Joe Biden, when he decided to run for reelection, we quickly surveyed our members.
		What do you think about this?
		Do you want to endorse him again?
		And our members resoundedly said yes.
		And so we are not part of the Democratic Party, nor are we in the inner circle with Joe Biden.
		We weren't aware of any issues or concerns, and our members are super clear that they wanted to support him and go all in and help run, do everything we can to re-elect him.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		With five months' distance to look back, why didn't Democrats, why didn't Kamala Harris win a single swing state in 2024?
unidentified		There are so many reasons that we can think about.
		Like it was such an anomaly presidential election.
		One day after another, there was, you know, I felt like we were part of like a movie.
		So, I mean, one could say she didn't win because she only had 107 days to run.
		One could say she didn't win because of the information ecosystem was so much more robust on the right.
		There are a number of things, and we won't know.
		We'll never know.
		But I think that she ran a phenomenal campaign in the 107 days she had.
		And I think that she stood up for people and she spoke for a lot of us that felt like we had been kicked around by Trump and Republicans for far too long.
		And we needed to stand up and start kicking back.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		If a robust information ecosystem on the right was one of the problems that you identify, how do you fix that ahead of 2026 and 2028?
unidentified		We have to start investing and spending more time and capacity building out our own apparatuses.
		And like, so Move On has a YouTube channel.
		People can go find us on YouTube where we bring on guests and we have programs and we have to just start rebuilding in this new media environment more podcasts, YouTube channels, other ways people can access information.
		I mean, we're seeing media just being reformed before our eyes and we need to start taking that seriously.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, Jamie Independent, good morning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for waiting.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		I just wanted to say, first of all, C-SPAN is fantastic.
		You guys are just awesome.
		I watch you every day.
		First-time caller.
		I believe that all Americans should watch every day if they can a little bit.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Appreciate that, Jamie.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's your question or comment for Ms. Epting?
unidentified		I wanted to just touch on what we were saying about Elon Musk.
		You said specifically, Ms. Epting, that he uses fear tactics and his behavior.
		It's been very reckless with the government.
		I agree.
		He's been extremely reckless with the dedicated American workforce that is the government.
		But specifically, an earlier caller, Daniel, had called and brought up to you the discussion of people taking their feelings out on Teslas and Tesla dealerships.
		And I just want to say, while I don't, I definitely don't condone that kind of behavior whatsoever, I suspect it's a direct response to Elon Musk's Nazi salute that he did more than one time.
		And he never actually directly denied, unless, John, you can correct me on that.
		And I also suspect it's a reaction to the violence that we saw on January 6th and the nearly 1,600 pardons for that despicable attack on the Capitol.
		So that's all I wanted to say.
		I hope you all have a great day.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Give you a chance to respond.
unidentified		Thank you, Jamie.
		I love C-SPAN too.
		That's why I'm here today.
		Yeah, I can't speak for the violence or the property damage around Tesla vehicles.
		I don't know the people who do this.
		I do not support it.
		And I think, but ultimately, we cannot be associating protests, peaceful protests, with individual actors that go out and do these dangerous things.
		I wouldn't say most people protesting Tesla are trying to make a point.
		They're not out there destroying property.
		So it's two different things that we're talking about here.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		On Elon Musk and his gesture at that rally.
		This is just one of the headlines on it since the caller was asking about it.
		This is from BBC in the wake of that happening.
		Musk responding to the backlash over his gesture at the Trump rally, brushing aside as they write the fur over the one-arm gesture he gave during the speech.
		In response, the SpaceX and Tesla chief posted on X, frankly, they need better dirty tricks.
		The everyone is Hitler attack is so tired, is apparently what he wrote on X at that point.
		Back to the calls.
		This is Dan in Atlanta, Georgia.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Yes, like how you're doing it.
		And I hope that y'all can hear me just right.
		But, you know, she needs to make the point that on all of the protests across the nation, there was only one arrest, and then they ended up letting that person go.
		All peaceful demonstrations.
		You should have this.
		And I wish everybody could just do me one favor: just put out a pen and paper.
		Okay, let's just do the math.
		During Donald Trump's first administration, he ran a deficit up $8 trillion.
		Okay, now the stock market just lost $11 trillion.
		Okay, that's $19 trillion.
		If these tariffs, you know, take the, I mean, go to fruition, that's going to put another $6 trillion tax add to that.
		And then with these tax cuts coming, he's going to be adding another $5 trillion to the deficit.
		All you have to do is do the math.
		Democrats need to fight.
		You should be bringing this up.
		You can, you know, do your normal spi.
		You have to bring this information.
		It's not going to be the end all to be all.
		But they talk about the economy.
		Just add up $8 trillion, $11 trillion, $6 trillion, and $5 trillion.
		And the guy got on the phone a while ago and complaining about a $37 trillion deficit.
		How much of that did Donald Trump put on there?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Got your point.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Dan in Atlanta.
unidentified		Thank you, Dan.
		Yes, first of all, like on the protests on Saturday, millions of people showed up from big cities to small cities in every state, all walks of life.
		Massively peaceful protests, no incidents whatsoever.
		This is a true representation of the people out there in this country.
		They just want to make sure that their elected officials hear them, that they listen to them, they respond to them.
		That is what it's all about.
		So thank you for lifting that up.
		I appreciate you very much.
		In terms of, you know, in terms of what you said about taxes, look, our basic assessment here is Trump, Musk, and Republicans are using the cloak of waste, fraud, and abuse to make cuts to critical social, critical services in this country: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid.
		It's the only way they find their $1 to $2 trillion is they have to attack those.
		They have to gut those things in order to get anywhere close.
		But they're also including things like Department of Education, veterans' benefits, science, cancer research, you name it.
		They're making all of these cuts while they're planning a big tax cut to the wealthy to make themselves even richer.
		That is what we're seeing here.
		That's the core story and the core concern of so many people across this country.
		And if the wealthy just paid their fair share, we wouldn't need to be having any of this shenanigan and any of these shenanigans.
		And then I think we also saw Donald Trump saying he wanted to increase the Pentagon budget to a trillion dollars yesterday.
		So what is it that they're actually trying to do?
		Again, this is about trust.
		It doesn't sound like they're trying to help the working people.
		Doesn't sound like they're trying to reduce costs.
		You know, he issued these tariffs.
		People's 401ks are tanking.
		All of this is funny, but it smells, it doesn't smell right.
		And so that is why you're seeing so many people upset because what they say is not what they're doing, and what they do is not what they say.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You talk about hearing, listening, and responding to the voices of the people who came out on Saturday at those rallies.
		Earlier in the segment, you praised Corey Booker for being one of those people who's doing that.
		Who is a Democratic leader right now that you think needs to do a better job of showing that they're hearing, that they're listening, and responding to those voices of Democratic activists?
unidentified		Look, all the elected leaders that came out on Saturday, I just want to first praise them.
		That was incredible to see so many people out there, so many of our leaders, Representative Jaya Paul.
		Maxwell Frost was at the DC event.
		Don Beyer was at the DC event.
		So many people.
		And in terms of who wasn't there, those are the folks I'm talking about.
		Like, you don't have to come to a protest to show that you're fighting for the people, but you do need to be visible.
		You do need to be out there talking to folks.
		You do need to be holding these town halls.
		And I think they're doing many folks are doing a great job.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is there somebody who's not visible enough in your mind?
unidentified		I think the reason I can't name names is because I can't think of them.
		I haven't seen them.
		Yeah.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		To Nicolette in Brooklyn, Maryland, Republican.
		Good morning.
		Just a couple minutes left here with Ronna Epting.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm asking to be kind of like a blackbuster video.
		I'm going back to the top when she first started talking.
		Good morning.
		Respectfully, the fact to me that racism still in levels is not bringing the actual level of the melting pot in America.
		We still put lower class or distressed people against people, as well as they become equity to negotiate with making deals, meaning, yes, it is a catastrophe that immigrants are being ripped away.
		However, is it any different than the Roosevelt era?
		Furthermore.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Well, Nicolette, discussing racism and equity, I think, there is.
unidentified		I mean, that is a fundamental underpinning of what we're seeing here.
		Race has long, since the very existence of the United States, has been something that is weaponized and manipulated to ensure that resources go to certain communities and they don't go to others.
		And so I think it's a great point.
		All of everything we've talked about today could be talked about with the lens of race.
		And I think the caller made it, you know, point taken.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Last call just across the Potomac River at Arlington, Virginia.
		Jack is on the independent line.
		Go ahead, Jack.
unidentified		Hello.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		I want to start by saying that I'm a devout Democrat.
		I'm someone who served overseas.
		I was in Iraq and Afghanistan.
		And I bring this up because one of the reasons why I voted for, and again, I'm a Democrat.
		I voted for Donald Trump twice out of the three times that he went up for president was because of what we were doing in terms of globalization.
		So I think the reason why I voted for him this time is because this man had a plan and he had a team.
		Whether or not I completely agreed with his approach, he had an approach that focuses on me in the United States as compared to my government, which largely included the Democrats, focusing on prioritizing everyone on planet Earth.
		So that was the first thing.
		And this is why the tariffs, when I look at the tariffs, I could applaud that approach because it's focusing, at least with a blunt instrument, of trying to prioritize the needs here.
		Another thing I make, and this is just a comment, is that I think I forget the name of the C-SPAN person there.
		He asked you a very simple question, and you weren't able to answer who is the Democrat that should be upfront?
		Who would you suggest?
		And you weren't able to answer that simple question, which to me is yet another indication.
		So this is very painful to hear you speak.
		This is like you didn't have an answer for that, which to me.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Jack, got your point.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Give you a chance.
unidentified		Well, first of all, thank you, Jack, for your service.
		Yeah, I don't think it's up to me to pick who the Democrats should be that's up front.
		Like, you know, my role at MoveOn is to support our members.
		Our members are the ones who decide who MoveOn should back and who they should support.
		And I think we're in a moment right now where what I'm hoping, what I personally am hoping to see is a number of new fresh leaders emerge out of this moment to show us what our choices are and what the possibilities are.
		And we're starting to see some of that starting to happen, but I still think it's very early.
		So I have named folks like Senator Corey Booker or AOC or Representative Maxwell Frost or Senator Chris Murphy, but it's still so early.
		We're only a couple months into this new administration.
		Democrats are still getting their footing.
		And so, you know, to pick who should be the new leader for the next, you know, as we head into the 2028 presidential election, I think is pretty premature.
		So I'm not trying to be squealy about anything.
		I just think it's not up to me.
		It's up to the voters of this country and it's up to the MoveOn members.
		And right now, MoveOn members are saying, hey, we're afraid.
		We're angry.
		We're pissed at what this administration is doing.
		And we want Democrats to fight.
		And we want them to undeniably fight for us, for the working people, for the middle class, not for the wealthy CEOs of this country.
		And we need to start showing that we can fix things in this country and we can fix them in the interest of the people, not in the interest of the wealthy billionaires.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The website, of course, for MoveOn is moveon.org.
		And Ronna Epting is the executive director.
		We always appreciate your time.
unidentified		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Coming up in about 30 minutes, we'll be joined by Family Research Council President Tony Perkins.
		We'll talk about the Trump administration's approach to family-related issues, the issue of abortion, the future of the Education Department.
		That in 30 minutes for the next 30 minutes, though, it's our open forum.
		Any public policy, any political issue that you want to talk about, now's your time to call in.
		Phone lines are on your screen.
		Go ahead and start calling, and we will get to those calls right after the break.
unidentified		C-SPAN Student Camp Competition challenged middle and high school students nationwide to create documentaries with messages to the new president.
		Our panel of judges evaluated over 1,700 thought-provoking student films on their use of multiple perspectives.
		C-SPAN awarded $100,000 in total cash prizes, and our grand prize of $5,000 goes to Dermot Foley, a 10th grader from Montgomery Blair High School in Silver Spring, Maryland.
		Congratulations to all our winners.
		The top 21 winning entries will air on C-SPAN this month.
		You can also watch all the award-winning documentaries anytime at studentcam.org.
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		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		It's time for our open forum.
		Any public policy issue, any political issue that you want to talk about, go ahead and start dialing in.
		As you're dialing in, here's what's happening on Capitol Hill today.
		The House comes in at 10 a.m. Eastern.
		You can, of course, watch that gavel-gavel on C-SPAN.
		The Senate also in at 10 a.m. Eastern.
		That's on C-SPAN 2.
		On C-SPAN 3 at 10 a.m., it's a hearing before the Senate Finance Committee.
		U.S. Trade Representative Jameson Greer will testify about President Trump's tariffs on foreign imports.
		You can watch that C-SPAN3, C-SPAN.org, and the free C-SPANNOW video app.
		And another hearing that you may be interested in later today at 2 p.m. Eastern.
		It's a hearing on 2024 election security, a look back with the secretaries of states from Alabama, Connecticut, Idaho, Louisiana, and Ohio, talking about how the election 2024 was administered in their states.
		Also, likely a look into the future as well of election security.
		C-SPAN3, C-SPAN.org, and the free C-SPAN Now video app is where you can watch that again at 2 p.m. Eastern.
		And now your phone calls in open forum.
		This is Donna in Horseshoe, North Carolina, Republican.
		Donna, what's on your mind?
unidentified		Hi.
		Yeah, I was just calling because I couldn't get through with that previous speaker.
		But, you know, I'm just so frustrated to listen to a lot of times you guys put on a lot of liberals, and I don't think you're very fair about your expressions and getting people on board to give their opinions.
		But where was the concern of all these people back when COVID was out and then Biden put the mandate that you had to get the injection?
		How many people lost their jobs over that?
		Where was their protest out there on all the people who lost their jobs?
		The hospital, I work as a hospital, and they're so understaffed because so many people left because they were fired.
		They either took a jab or they got fired.
		Military, we lost so many people in the military, but where was the protest on this?
		Where was, you know, as far as war, the Democrats are so much for love, not war.
		Where was their protest and all these wars that were going on when Biden was president?
		I'm just, I don't understand this.
		And then, you know, if you have a household and you're in serious debt, what's the first thing you're going to do?
		We've got to cut everything out.
		We've got to tear up our credit cards.
		This is not going to be fun.
		We're going to live on beans and rice.
		This is not going to be fun.
		And it is going to be painful, but we've got to get out of this mess.
		We have got to get rid of all this waste spending.
		We don't need all these people in this government working.
		And that's what Musk and Trump is doing.
		And it just makes me sick to my stomach how these people talk like this.
		And they think, oh, it's the 1% that are making all this money off of all these off of Trump.
		They're just caring about the 1%.
		That's not true.
		And I am in the middle class, if not lower.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Donna in North Carolina.
		This is Betty in New York.
		Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, the only statement I want to make is I'm sick and tired of hearing them knocking about liberals.
		What about these so-called conservatives?
		All a conservative is conservative for themselves, for no the hell with everybody else.
		And until we get back, I mean, conservatives used to be, yes, there's a lot of fat that should be caught, but not the way they're doing it now.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Betty in New York to Maryland.
		It's Rockville, Maryland.
		Lola, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Morning.
		Yes.
		Can you hear me?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		Yes.
		So, yeah, I wish I could have spoken to the lady that was on your air just previously, but my point was just, it's just always these politicians that making those points, those talking points, that, I mean, it's just talking points.
		Like, for example, you know, she has mentioned that Trump is doing tax cuts for rich.
		You know, I mean, break it down.
		Explain what does it mean?
		Give examples.
		I actually have, I've heard so many times that this is like, you know, he's doing tax cuts for the reach, you know, blah, blah, blah.
		But like the other, just recently, you know, they put on the media that Elon Musk, for example, paid $34 billion in taxes, you know.
		And I mean, they're not putting that information up in the open, you know, but they are talking about that Trump is making this tax cuts for billionaires, you know, and they're not really bringing like breaking it down.
		So I think what's important here, all these people, politicians that are coming up in the air, they really need to explain what does it mean because it makes no sense.
		You know, he's working on his promises.
		He's trying to bring the economy down so that all these groceries and prices would go down because the previous administration didn't do nothing.
		Like, look at our prices.
		I mean, how high do you want to go?
		I mean, where are salaries comparing to groceries?
		Where is the gap going?
		I mean, how far can we go until people's pockets are going to be completely empty?
		So I'm just saying that, you know, let the man do his work.
		If the previous administration didn't do the job, let this at least run around around.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Lola.
		This is Penny in Brooklyn, New York.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm just wondering why no one is mentioning that Joe Biden started with the CHIPS Act to bring manufacturing back to America.
		Infrastructure he was rebuilding.
		It takes time to bring this back, which means they have to build factories.
		They have to do all that.
		Until they do that, there should be no cutting everybody out of jobs.
		You don't do it in the audit by just going in and saying, okay, I want 10,000 people to leave.
		I want fire 80,000 out of here.
		And when you went to the VA, to our veterans who fought for this country, and you just fired them willy-nilly, and no one is outraged.
		The way you did these things was absolutely disrespectful to all the workers.
		This is not an audit.
		And I know Americans know how to do an audit.
		You have people there who do or look at ways for it in a Bruce.
		When he's talking about what he found, nobody saw what he found.
		He just made up these numbers.
		So I don't understand why people are not thinking that people are thinking that this is the way to do things.
		It is absolutely not.
		He doesn't care about the workers.
		Those who are still working, you may recover a little of what your 401k is losing, but people who have already retired and are living off of that, they're not going to recover because they're not putting in and there's no employer putting in.
		So what we're looking, why do we have to suffer?
		Why does the working class have to suffer?
		Why not the rich?
		You who can afford to lose?
		We cannot afford to lose these things.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Penny in New York.
		Go ahead and keep calling in.
		We are coming up on 9 a.m. Eastern.
		We're in open forum, any public policy, any political issue that you want to talk about.
		As you're calling in, just a couple of new stories to note.
		Out of the Supreme Court, a divided Supreme Court, as the Washington Post writes, yesterday cleared the way for the Trump administration to use a controversial wartime authority to deport alleged members of a Venezuelan gang.
		They said, though, that detainees first must have an opportunity to challenge their deportation.
		A 5-4 ruling didn't touch on the underlying legal questions about the government's use of the Alien Enemies Acts, one of the most high-profile and contentious immigration enforcement actions so far in the second Trump administration.
		There's that story out of the Supreme Court, and then this story from the White House.
		Donald Trump announces direct talks with Iran on nuclear program.
		That's the headline out of the Washington Times.
		Donald Trump talking yesterday from the Oval Office about efforts to engage with Iran on this topic.
		Here's what he had to say.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		I can just tell you there's a major meeting going on between us and Iran, and that'll take place on Saturday, and it's at top level.
unidentified		And a second question about this.
barak ravid ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people think that those talks are not going to lead anywhere because the Iranians will never be up.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		I think that's a possibility.
barak ravid ▲ ● ▼		If diplomacy fails, is the United States under your leadership ready to take military action to destroy the Iranian nuclear program and remove this threat?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		I think if the talks aren't successful with Iran, I think Iran is going to be in great danger.
		And I hate to say it, great danger, because they can't have a nuclear weapon.
		You know, it's not a complicated formula.
		Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
		That's all there is.
unidentified		Can't have us ready.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Right now we have countries that have nuclear power that shouldn't have it.
		But I'm sure we'll be able to negotiate out of that too as part of this later on down the line.
		But Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
		And if the talks are successful, I actually think it'll be a very bad day for Iran if that's the case.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		President Trump, yesterday from the White House, back to your phone calls this morning in open forum.
		This is Guillermo in Philly.
		Republican, good morning.
unidentified		Hi, John.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Guillermo.
unidentified		Can you turn down your television so we can audience?
		I am angry.
		I am a Native American, been here in this land for 3,000 years.
		And before that, I was in this, my ancestors were in South America.
		So we are immigrants.
		But I tell you what, I am very leery about any sojourner, any stranger coming into my home.
		One, the Europeans come to this country, and they came so beautifully.
		They, with their hands folded, little bonnets and everything.
		We accepted them and they took over the land.
		The black people come over to this country as slaves.
		Then they get their independence.
		They want the wealth that the Europeans have made.
		They want to distribute to them.
		John, we have to be able to understand that people that come to this country must come to have peace.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Guillermo.
		This is Jim in Pennsylvania, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thanks for having me.
		I just wanted to call.
		I'm a disabled vet.
		I lost my job in the post office due to my disabilities.
		And I feel so divided and sitting on the fence right now.
		President Trump is doing so much good for the country.
		It seems to be like with the borders and the DEI and all that stuff.
		He's bringing us back to where it's more to me, more as I grew up and normal.
		And what I'm trying to say is this country, Democrats, Republicans, they're both doing more fighting one another for their own goods or their whatever for their own selves.
		They're not worried about their constituents anymore, it seems.
		They're more worried about their next election and to stay on the track with what they want to do and not what's best for the country at this point.
jefferson in virginia ▲ ● ▼		I feel due to the infighting, the backfighting, is causing a lot of problems for us more so than the world problem and the wars overseas at this point.
unidentified		Just like Elon Musk, the people are holding it against him.
		Personally, I don't know if the man's good for us or bad for us because what you say and what you do are two different things in life.
		And there's an old expression I live by: don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining.
		And I think that's the problem with the country right now.
		They feel the people are being lied to by both sides.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Jim in Pennsylvania.
		Poppy in Albany, New York.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		I just wanted to say that I think that people in this country are being misled very seriously.
		When we have a Supreme Court that is willing to allow an illegal act of taking people from our country, whether they're illegals or not, but they're people that are just innocent people that pick berries or work a job.
		How many people in the Irish section of the Bronx are getting deported?
		How many Russians are being deported out of Brighton Beach?
		Not many.
		It's very focused on brown people only and saying they're in gangs.
		These innocent men are very likely being raped every night.
		These people are being assaulted.
		They're in a death jail.
		No one in that jail in El Salvador ever leaves alive.
		These people's lives are in mortal danger immediately right now.
		They need to be brought back here.
		I mean, I'm sorry, but there are so many white immigrants that are not being looked at.
		They're in gangs too.
		There are Russian gangs.
		There's Irish gangs all over this country that are killing people as well.
		Let's stop this.
		It's just blatant racism.
		And then for the Supreme Court to say, oh, yeah, it's fine.
		When have we ever taken people off of our soil to imprison them in another country?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Here's the other story out of the Supreme Court yesterday on this topic, along with the one we mentioned earlier.
		The fate of a Maryland man mistakenly deported to that mega prison in El Salvador, remained in limbo Monday after the Supreme Court briefly paused an order requiring the Trump administration to bring him back to the United States.
		A lower court judge had told the government to fly Kilmar Obrego Garcia to the United States by 1159 p.m. on Monday.
		The Salvadorian immigrant who is married to a U.S. citizen was deported despite a court ruling forbidding it.
		Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts gave a Brego Garcia's attorneys until Tuesday to respond to the government's request to allow his deportation to stand while the litigation over the matter continues.
		The truncated timeline indicates the Supreme Court is likely to act quickly in this case.
		So we may be even hearing more today on this particular case.
		This is Helen out of Fairfax, California, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, John.
		I'm on a speaker.
		Is that okay?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I can hear you, Helen.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, I really appreciate your show.
		You're my favorite of all the hosts, and I haven't watched lately.
		So this is open forum.
		So I was just listening to Ian Masters on NPR, or KPFA out here, and they were discussing whether maybe Trump is a Russian agent or maybe he just doesn't know what he's doing.
		And I just wondered also if you don't mind commenting to me if you know what's the relationship between Russia and Iran here.
		Like he's going to Iran to discuss getting rid of the nuclear weapons.
		Does that have to do with Russia's wishes or Putin, in fact?
		I just don't know if you have any information.
		And could you leave me on the line so I can listen?
		Because I don't have a computer.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tell you what, Helen, likely going to be talking a lot more about that meeting with Iran, and we'll bring on a foreign policy expert.
		It's probably more who you want to hear from on this topic.
		But stick around for that discussion.
		It's likely going to be later in this week.
		This is Dusty in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I just want to say thank you to all of you people who came out Saturday and Sunday and have been coming out the last two or three weeks.
		And we need to continue doing this.
		And we will get bigger because it's going to get worse.
		When this man starts messing with it, this is your warning, Donald Trump.
marty schachter ▲ ● ▼		Mess without Medicare, Medicaid, and close down on Social Security, y'all.
unidentified		I'm 74 years old, $1,200 a month.
		I'm on Medicare and Medicaid with existing health problems.
		This is your warning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's the caller from South Carolina.
		This is Woodrow in Georgia, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, how are you doing?
		This is Woodrow Fryer down in Augusta, Georgia.
		I was just saying all these people is complaining about Trump trying to help the rich, and yesterday all the CEOs was on TV complaining about how much money it's going to cost them.
		Give a man a chance.
		Everybody lying and panicking about the same thing.
		But they had four years of the other side with nobody rushing to trying to kill nobody.
		I'm a veteran, 25 years.
		I seen them yesterday voting for benefits for the blind, the veterans, which I'm one of them.
		We give away so much money to all these other people coming in the country, but hell, they ain't doing enough for the veterans.
		And I thank God he needs to come to Augusta, Georgia.
		We got two VA hospitals up here with massive amounts of waste, fraud, and abuse.
		I hope they come.
		And the only thing I want them to do, I want them to post, put it out there where everybody can see it.
		I'm waiting on them to post some of these finders of all of that money.
		I want to see where it all gone because that one individual that put an open up account for $100 and got a billion, $2 billion.
		I want to see it.
		I want to be able to see the facts on that.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Woodrow in Georgia.
		Woodrow, you might be interested in Aaron Blake's piece in today's Washington Post on some of Trump's wealthiest allies balking at his tariff gambit as stock markets tank.
		That's the headline.
		Aaron Blake points specifically to Elon Musk by early Saturday.
		Musk was taking clear and unambiguous shots at one of the long-standing architects of Trump's tariff policies, fellow White House advisor Peter Navarro.
		Similarly, pro-Trump billionaire influencer Bill Ackerman, one of the president's most active defenders on social media this weekend, made a sharp and more explicit turn away from Trump's tariffs.
		He writes after suggesting last week that the tariffs were a ploy to look unpredictable and spur negotiations.
		Ackman unleashed a torrent of criticism over the weekend.
		He likened the situation to an economic nuclear war and said, this is not what we voted for.
		More in that story, if you want to read about it.
		This is Kroom in Charlotte, North Carolina, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, John.
unidentified		How are you doing?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Doing well.
unidentified		That's good.
		Good morning, C-SPAN fans, and all that.
		I just got one point I'm going to make before I start.
		Give me some time.
		Let me think because I'm kind of nervous right now.
		But my number one point is that it's been already proven that Fox News is not a news organization.
		Fox is an LLC as an entertainment, so it's the same as e-news.
		It's basically like watching entertainment tonight.
		So it's not a news organization at all.
		And another thing, my second point is that when people keep talking about a $37 trillion debt, and if anybody in their right mind really believes that in our lifetime, in eight of our great-great-grandchildren's lifetimes, that debt will never be paid off.
		So it's ridiculous to sit around here and talk about how we're going to pay off a $37 trillion debt.
		We're not going to do that in our lifetime, in our great-great-grandchildren's lifetime.
		So that's something we shouldn't even be talking about right now.
		And on top of that, the same people who are voting for these tax cuts and saying all this government waste, and now they want to get jobs back from China and get jobs back over here.
		These are the same people who voted for these jobs to be taken out of here.
		They voted for Reagan in the 80s, lost all these manufacturing jobs, and now you sent these jobs.
		I mean, who does America have to blame but themselves and greed?
		We sent these jobs to these foreign countries for cheap labor.
		I mean, this is why this whole thing sounds so crazy to me, for the country to get on here and say, we've got so much animosity towards China, but yet we cannot look around any of our houses and find something that's not made in China.
		Walmart is a billion-dollar company.
		Target is a billion-dollar company.
		All these companies, they get their products from China.
		So how can we sit here and play this role?
		Like we somehow got this thing against China, but why are we getting rich off of China?
		America allowed China to invest $1.3 trillion in the U.S. stock market.
		You can't do that.
		Americans can't go and invest in the Chinese stock market.
		So this whole thing, I mean, I don't know, I don't understand because the same senior citizens right now who are sitting on $75 trillion worth of wealth, they're complaining.
		Their whole position is that I got mine, now you have to get yours.
		And they'd rather see the whole country burned down before they vote against anything to help anybody at all.
		They're sitting on all the wealth.
		They got their money.
		I mean, when they had pensions, when you had the war bonds, you had different, they got that money now.
		Now they're sitting on this world riding around in the million-dollar motorhomes, have two and three different houses.
		I mean, who is to blame but American people?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kroom in North Carolina, Miguel, Plant City, Florida, Democrat.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		How are you?
		Doing well.
		Hi.
		Listen, I'm a veteran, and I served this country honorably for six years.
		And I feel very proud as an American to defend this country and defend our democracy.
		However, you know, our democracy today is being challenged by Trump administration.
		Right now, you know, what he's doing, he's keeping all Americans busy with all this chaos that he's causing.
		Think about it.
		He's causing all kinds of problems with the federal government, okay, trying to fire people that's been there and actually earned their jobs.
		He's causing problems with Canada, Mexico, China, you name it.
		So, what he's doing is keeping America busy with all these news going to different areas.
		Now, he's going to the Arab world to take away their, according to him, make sure that they don't have nuclear power.
		So, what he's doing, he's an actor, but he's also a great con man that basically wants to demoralize our democracy, take away our freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and at the same time, the law, which has, you know, the country that has laws and regulations.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Teresa is next, Port Ritchie, Florida, Independent.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, thank you for taking my call.
		I just feel that facts are really important and people don't seem to look up anything, right?
		So, the woman that you had speaking prior, she said that, you know, if the wealthy paid their fair share, 1% of the country paid for 48% of the tax revenue, I think that's more than their share when 99% of the country is responsible for 52% of the tax revenue.
		Furthermore, right, they talk about the Social Security.
		So, Biden and Kamala Harris actually weakened Social Security due to the fact that they borrowed from it.
		At its inception, it was improperly invested and they showed interest accruing where it was not.
		So, obviously, that has an issue in the long run, right?
		So, the tax cuts that they're talking about, they say they're only for the wealthy, but the same tax cuts from 2017.
		And according to the IRS documents, it shows that they specifically helped the middle class.
		Furthermore, this guy from Maryland, right, he was seeking asylum to negate being rival, you know, rival gangs against him in his country.
		But if you're a dawn-to-use citizen, you don't have rival gangs after you.
		There's no rival gang to be had, right?
		So, how does a rival gang go after somebody that's not a gang member?
		That doesn't make any sense.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Teresa in Florida, our last caller in this open forum.
		Stick around, though, 45 minutes before the House comes in.
		And in that time, we will be joined by Family Research Council President Tony Perkins to discuss the Trump administration's approach to family issues.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		As President Trump moves to impose reciprocal tariffs on several U.S. trade partners, Jameson Greer, U.S. Trade Representative, will testify before two committee hearings on the President's 2025 trade policy agenda.
		First, he appears today before the Senate Finance Committee, and then on Wednesday before the House Ways and Means Committee.
		Watch live today, beginning at 10 a.m. Eastern on C-SPAN 3.
		Also, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app, and online at c-span.org.
jimmy carter ▲ ● ▼		Democracy is always an unfinished creation.
ronald reagan ▲ ● ▼		Democracy is worth dying for.
george h w bush ▲ ● ▼		Democracy belongs to us all.
bill clinton ▲ ● ▼		We are here in the sanctuary of democracy.
george w bush ▲ ● ▼		Great responsibilities fall once again to the great democracies.
barack obama ▲ ● ▼		American democracy is bigger than any one person.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Freedom and democracy must be constantly guarded and protected.
joe biden ▲ ● ▼		We are still at our core a democracy.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		This is also a massive victory for democracy and for freedom.
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john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Back with us now.
		It is Tony Perkins.
		He serves as president of the Family Research Council, an organization whose mission is what, Mr. Perkins?
unidentified		Well, John, our mission is to shape public policy and the culture from a biblical perspective.
		We're unapologetically Christian in our orientation.
		We represent a large segment of the American population.
		And we, you know, our voice is added into the mix.
		And we arrive, hopefully, at consensus with policy that will move our nation forward.
		So that's our goal.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How long have you been around?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How is the group funded?
unidentified		Privately.
unidentified		No government funds, all privately funded through donations of folks who share the same vision for our country all across this country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Your website describes you as a pro-family, pro-life.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What does pro-family mean?
unidentified		Pro-family means the structure of the family being really the building block of America.
		We can't have a strong society without strong families.
		What does a strong family look like?
		It looks like moms and dads raising kids, not outsourcing the education and the instruction of those children.
		And that also includes a spiritual education and foundation.
		So we see the family as you cannot have, and I've even challenged this administration on this from time to time.
		To make America great again, it has to be good again.
		And that goodness begins in the family.
		It begins with teaching our children right from wrong.
		It teaches them how to interact with people they disagree with, moving our nation back to a place of civility and conversation, even when we disagree with one another.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How do we do that on a national level?
unidentified		Well, it's like we do it in the family.
		A family cannot survive if they can't talk with each other.
		And if we can't have conversations in the home, and I've served as a pastor, John, and I've done marital counseling.
		And when a couple gets to a place that they can't talk with each other, their future is very dim.
		We have to break through and have those conversations to talk about our differences, even when they are passionate.
		And America has passionate differences.
		We always have.
		I do think we're at a breaking point, but we're at a pretty significant point where we have some differences.
		But I think part of that is that we're not talking.
		We're not having those conversations.
		The civility and the dialogue has broken down.
		That's why I like to come on C-SPAN is because this is one of the last places where people are actually having conversations, even people who disagree.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How can we get members of Congress to do that besides coming on C-SPAN, which many of them do, some don't?
unidentified		There is more of that going on then than people realize.
		I've been around here a long time.
		I've served with a lot of members of Congress.
		I've been in public office.
		Behind the scenes, there's a lot of conversation that's taking place.
		True, genuine relationships.
		There's weekly, almost every day on the Capitol Hill, there's a Bible study of some sort that is bipartisan.
		Here's the problem: is that in this age of social media where everybody's a commentator and everybody has their own source of outlet and 24-7 news cycle, which really was the precursor to all of this, is that when people are seen, when Republicans or Democrats are seen together, there are some on both sides who say, why are you talking to that person?
		And they will bombard them, and there becomes this kind of the stampede mentality that we can't even have conversations.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So how do you normalize being seen in public talking to each other?
unidentified		It's going to take work.
		It's going to take work.
		It's going to take intentionality.
		The speaker, Mike Johnson, very close friend of mine, a couple years ago, he launched an initiative in Congress, a civility project, and he continues to have those conversations among his own.
		That, look, we've got to have decent conversations.
		He and I were just talking about this last week, about even in the hearings, how we need to dial back the way some of the witnesses are treated by members of Congress on both sides.
		Because it's in many times from some, and we've got to be careful, John, we don't paint everybody with a broad brush.
		We can't have a, because there are people there who treat people with great respect, but there are others that play to the camera.
		And that's a bad thing.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Well, you say play to the camera, that these conversations are happening behind closed doors.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Are the cameras the problem?
unidentified		They're certainly not helping.
		But it's how what is on the camera is interpreted.
		It can be a good thing.
		But when we have two sides, a divided nation, and we have an element, not all, not all the people on the left are worked up and angry, and not all the people on the right are worked up and angry, but there are some.
		And their voices are loud, and they tend to dominate.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		On the pro-family, pro-life, the pro-life side of the tagline here, in a post-Roe era, what is the front line of the abortion fight?
		Is it state abortion laws?
		Is it more wins at the Supreme Court?
		Is it a national abortion ban?
		Where do you see this fight today?
unidentified		I think that's a really good question.
		And I think many are searching for what is that?
		What does that look like?
		Here's what I think it looks like.
		It looks like, and this is where I've had disagreements with early on.
		Last time I was on C-SPAN was at the Republican convention and had disagreements with the Trump campaign that took out the pro-life language from the party.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The platform.
unidentified		The platform, I'm sorry.
		From the platform and other things as well.
		So I think it is a state, I mean, it's always been fought at the state level, but there's been a recognition that there is a federal role and responsibility.
		For instance, funding.
		We see tremendous amounts of funding that aiding Planned Parenthood.
		That has to stop.
		But also, a very real problem that this administration is facing when they say this is a state issue is the abortion pill that the FDA has given approval to be sold without medical interaction.
		And that is being mailed across state lines because of a decision by the Department of Justice regarding the Comstock law.
		And so that's an issue because states cannot protect life if abortion pills can be sent from New York, like into my home state of Louisiana, where we have a very strong pro-life law.
		So there is a role for the federal government, but I believe the vast majority of activity is going to be at and has been at the state level.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you support a national abortion ban?
unidentified		I don't think we're there yet.
		I believe in working toward consensus, okay?
		I would like to see this nation as a nation that embraces life at every stage, and we do have a country that no longer allows for abortion, but we're not there.
		Look, I've been in the public policy process.
		It is educational.
		It's consensus.
		We have moved the needle significantly.
		But you can't have that type of change unless there is policy change, unless there's first a change of the culture.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You brought this up, so I want to read a headline on it.
		Trump administration cuts tens of millions of dollars from Planned Parenthood.
		The Title X funds, this is the subheadline, were earmarked for birth control and other non-abortion services.
		What is a Title X fund?
		What is this about?
unidentified		Well, that's the Title X funding for family planning.
		So here's the reality.
		Money is fungible.
		So here's an organization that received about $700 million from the federal government.
		And they do abortions.
		This goes back to when Ronald Reagan was president.
		It was the co-location where you couldn't provide abortions and family planning in the same facility.
		That's like a ping pong goes back and forth depending upon a Republican Democratic administration.
		But I think, look, we're at a place where the nation is divided over this issue.
		I'll recognize that.
		The nation is not 100% pro-life.
		It's not 100% abortion either.
		But we should not be propping up institutions that advance controversial actions that run counter to half the American population.
		We're a Christian organization.
		We advance policy based upon biblical principles.
		I know not everyone agrees with us, but they're not paying for that.
		They're not getting, the government is not directly funding us to do that.
		So why should the government directly fund an organization that is operating contrary to half the view of the American people?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's your view on separation of church and state?
unidentified		Well, I think the separation of church and state, go back to the origins of it with Thomas Jefferson, was to assure the church that the government was not going to pick sides in the faith in terms of denominations and who was elevated and who was not, and that the government was not going to dictate the activities of the church.
		That does not mean that the church and the church as individuals collectively coming together cannot speak into the public policy of our country.
		That's long been the understanding that we can speak into this.
		And so this idea that's been twisted of separation of church and state that somehow you have to check your faith at the door of government, of entering into public discourse, is nonsense.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Can a or should a pastor, preacher, priest from the pulpit advocate a political party or political candidate from the pulpit?
unidentified		I think they should be free to do so if they so choose, because when you look at the candidates or the parties, you're talking about the policies.
		You cannot separate the parties from the policies.
		And so yes, I think they should be free to do so.
		That's why we have advocated for a long time the removal of what's called the Johnson Amendment from the IRS code, which goes back to 1954 when Lyndon B. Johnson was a senator.
		He was opposed by some nonprofits, wasn't actually churches of nonprofit organizations, that opposed his reelection.
		So he inserted something into the tax code that prohibited 501c3 organizations from engaging in any type of political activity.
		Now, John, that said, I do not think that nonprofit organizations, churches, should be able to use funds to fund political campaigns.
		And there's actually legislation that was just introduced last week.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Meaning giving money to a candidate.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		I do not think they should be fair.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		But they can speak in support of that candidate.
unidentified		I think, look, a pastor should be free to use his First Amendment right from the pulpit to teach and educate his people.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Look, it's a free speech issue.
unidentified		It's a free speech issue, but it's also one of stewardship as a pastor.
		There was a time in this country when before 24-7 cable television, people looked to the church.
		Many people looked to the pastors to understand the times and what these events meant in the bigger scope of things.
		And so I think pastors should be free to give instruction, spiritual instruction, because so much of what is done today in the political realm has roots in biblical teaching.
		And so we need to be free to speak to those issues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tony Perkins, free to speak with you, our viewers, this morning on the Washington Journal with us for the next half hour until the House comes in.
		It's 10 a.m. Eastern when the House is scheduled to be in.
		That's where we're going to go when our program ends.
		Phone lines, as usual, Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.
		As folks are calling in, you mentioned that you and Speaker Johnson go back a long ways.
		How long have you known the speaker?
		How, in what capacity do you know him?
unidentified		Well, I've known the speaker since he was in law school and back when I was in public office in Louisiana.
unidentified		So we've known each other for almost 30 years.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And what did you think of him then when he was in law school?
unidentified		I've always known Mike to be a very sharp individual.
		We've worked together on a number of projects as he was a young attorney.
		I was in the Louisiana legislature.
		We worked on some initiatives together.
		We've kind of traveled the same course.
		And I would tell you he is a very bright, very smart lawyer, a constitutional lawyer, but he's also a man of deep conviction and shares a biblical worldview.
		And he's not hiding that.
		That's one thing.
		We're not hiding who we are.
		We're very transparent.
		And you can gauge how he's going to react to something.
		And I also, one of the things you see about him that people say, even his opponents, those who would disagree with him on the issues, is how he treats people.
		He treats people very fairly.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You talk about people who disagree with him or not hiding it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What does the term Christian nationalism mean to you?
unidentified		You know, I'm still trying to figure that one out because I see it used.
		To me, it is a pejorative where the previous terms of evangelical and that were Christian right didn't really stick.
		That now we've got this new term Christian nationalist because it sounds pretty foreboding.
		It sounds pretty bad.
		But if it is believing the Bible and loving your country, then you know what?
		I guess that's what I am.
		But from the standpoint I think how it's being used, I think it's just designed to scare people.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I got you some calls.
		This is Susan Upfirst out of the Hoosier State Republican.
		You are on with Tony Perkins of Family Research Council.
unidentified		Thank you for your time.
		I wanted to mention one thing, and I so hope you can get this to people that can help get it done.
		On our ballots, when we go to elections, if there would be a barcode on the piece of paper or on the computer for our ballot so they can only be run through the system one time and be counted rather than being put through again and again and again.
		And I know Democrats will tell you they don't do that, but you can physically watch them do that when you watch some of these videos.
		But if there would be a barcode or a number, I know in Indiana here, when you go and vote, you get a receipt.
		And it tells you who you voted, how you voted.
		And I think that's wonderful.
		But I think that would be a really good idea.
		The other thing I wanted to mention is there was just a poll done.
		And the Democrats said that about 38% of them said that it was okay to assassinate people like Muslim Trump.
		And this to me is so scary from the very people who tell us it's always the Republicans that are the violent ones.
		I have yet to see that.
		And I really wish on your computer there when you do some stories, there are sites like Lucyanne.com, freerepublic.com, which will they are stories put in by the people and you can read different views from the different stories.
		And it just gives you a wider breadth of news.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Got your point.
		That's Susan.
		Election integrity and political violence were two of the big issues she brings up.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I think, and it's reflective of both sides.
		I don't think that's just a Republican issue or a Democrat issue.
		I think people are concerned.
		And I do think election integrity is an issue.
		You know, when you see third world countries able to do elections in a day, and yet it takes us sometimes months to count some of these congressional races.
		You know, I think something we have to address.
		And I do think the administration has put forward some proposals.
		The Congress is working on some things.
		But on the issue of the violence, John, as we were talking about it, it comes back to civility.
		And I think we need to elevate those voices who are advocating for conversations, passionate conversations, but not advocating for violence.
		There's no place.
		Look, if we want a healthy republic that has staying power, violence has no place in it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		To the Cornhusker State, this is Karen in Omaha.
		Democrat, good morning.
		You're on with Tony Perkins.
unidentified		Hello, this is Karen.
		I am just going in to make aware of people out here.
		I have a household.
		I have an 87-year-old mother that's on the oxygen.
		I have a brother that has lung cancer and schizophrenia and another brother that is onset of Parkinson's.
		We're all in one home.
		My younger brother and I take care of all of them.
		They're on Social Security and Medicare.
		We have people going in and out of here, nurses, and stuff for my brother off and on all through the day.
		What happens when this stops?
		Who do we talk to?
		Who do we appeal to?
		How do we get things done?
		My brother can't wait to have help.
		The other brother gets so sick, he can't hardly walk.
		And then they're threatening to take our Social Security away and our Medicaid away.
		I just want to know what these men plan on doing.
		This is a big burden.
		He says a little pain, but this isn't a little pain to us.
		This is life-ending for some of my family.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Karen, thanks for sharing your story.
unidentified		Well, first, I would say to Karen and her brother who are taking care of her, the rest of her family, that's modeling family.
		When you talk about pro-family, it's taking care of our family.
		But I want to put her at ease that there's no effort to take away the Medicaid from those, or Medicare, from those who are in need of that.
		And I've talked to the House Speaker.
		I've talked to those in the administration.
		That is not on the agenda.
		Social Security, that's not on the agenda.
		When we're talking about the cuts, it's the fraud, the waste, and the abuse, and the unnecessary programs, not those that people are depending on for life.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is there fraud, waste, and abuse in Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security?
unidentified		There is.
		There are cases of fraud and abuse, and they have been uncovering some of that.
		But it's not affecting people.
		It's not going to affect those who are legitimately on it.
		When I'm talking about fraud and abuse, there's some people that have been, and this is a failure of the government, by the way, of not having sufficient tracking.
		And it's amazing to me some of the stories I've heard about the lack of ability to even track a Social Security number where you may have 50 people using the same Social Security number to draw from.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Are you confident that the government can find and cut waste, fraud, and abuse from Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security without catching legitimate people up in that net?
unidentified		Yes.
		Now, anytime you do something, there may be a case or two that people get caught up in that, and that can be addressed, and it will be addressed.
		Look, I've talked a lot with the Speaker about this, and they are committed not in any form or fashion to harm those who are legitimately on these government programs that provide basically life and death, especially when you look at Social Security.
		I mean, this was a promise that was made.
		Now, I think there are better ways to do it, but they're not going to change it.
		Those who are on Social Security, Social Security is not going to be effective.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Better ways to do it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How?
unidentified		Are we talking about changing the age, changing the formulas?
		Well, I just think, I think encouraging more, especially among younger people, I think we need to have this conversation.
		Do you really want to rely on the government in your latter years?
		I think there are better ways to encourage people to save themselves and to prepare for the future.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Michael, Denver, Colorado Independent, good morning.
unidentified		Hi, thank you so much for taking my call.
		And Mr. Perkins, it's really an honor to speak with you.
		Thank you for your thoughtful assessment as well today.
		And I just had a quick kind of comment and question.
		So talking about this new bill that you've recently come out in support of the Free Speech Fairness Act, you know, you said you wholeheartedly support this.
		And recently there was a story of a church in Florida who endorsed a political candidate and openly called for prayer for them during a church service.
		There was an investigation by the IRS that was later dropped.
		But when I think when we talk about this bill, I think there should be parameters described as to what in regards to endorsing a candidate during a church service, what lengths that can go to.
		But also the focal point of this bill, I think, is the issue of churches retaining that tax-exempt status when endorsing a political candidate.
		So when you talk about the issue of free speech, I think that's one thing.
		But when you bring in the issue of a church having tax-exempt status in spite of endorsing a political candidate, I think that brings in another element.
		And I think that's what this bill, in essence, is changing for churches to be allowed to have tax-exempt status in spite of endorsing a political candidate.
		So my question kind of surrounding this is how do you justify churches retaining that tax-exempt status if they're going to be endorsing a candidate from the pulpit, essentially?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Michael, thanks for the call.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		It's H.R. 2501 in this Congress, the Free Speech Fairness Act.
unidentified		Good question.
		That's why the parameters here are we're talking about speech.
		We're not talking about funding.
		We're not talking about churches being able to use financial resources that they would have to support a candidate.
		And that's really what goes back to Johnson in 1954: that nonprofits were actually using their resources to oppose him.
		So I think this is an issue dealing with speech.
		It's not dealing with the funds of a church.
		And by the way, churches actually do not need there.
		There's kind of a debate internally among churches whether or not they actually need that tax-exempt status because they have a constitutional right.
		So many churches actually do not even have an IRS certification as a 501c3.
		They just, because of who they are as a church, are not required to pay the taxes.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Has that ever been challenged in no.
unidentified		And this is a part of these.
		I was a part of, I was actually the chairman of the Pulpit Freedom Sunday initiative that we did many years with the Alliance Defending Freedom.
		We actually had pastors who preached sermons, recorded those sermons, endorsing candidates, and sent it to the IRS.
		We didn't want them just to have to find it.
		We wanted to give it to them.
		And so we sent them dozens of sermons, and they would never litigate it.
		They would never.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Was it daring them to do it?
unidentified		It was daring them to do it because it's unconstitutional.
		And they would never take it.
		So President Trump, in his first term, he did by executive order.
		He eliminated this.
		But it's going to require a statutory change, and that's why we saw this introduced last week.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Because if not, the next administration that comes along who may disagree with this institutes it that way but and here's the reality of this John it's it's more of an intimidation Tool than anything.
unidentified		There's only been a couple of cases where it's actually been used by the IRS, and it's resulted in some fines, minimal fines.
		So it's not been used to beat down churches, but it's been used by those on the left who want to intimidate churches.
		If you asked for calls from pastors, how many of them have gotten letters right at election season from, you know, used to be Barry Lynn, one of these organizations, Freedom from Religion Foundation.
		They make a habit of sending out letters prior to elections telling pastors, you could lose your tax exemption if you talk about candidates or you talk about politics.
		And so many pastors pastor small churches.
		They don't have a lot of resources.
		And so they're not going to want to put something on the line, whether it be their finances or controversy.
		And so they back away from it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Barry Lynn, is it people for separation of churches?
unidentified		Church and state, yeah.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Kenneth, Tampa, Florida, Republican, good morning.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, John.
unidentified		How are you?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Doing well.
		You're on with Tony Perkins.
		What's your question or comment?
unidentified		Yes, real quick, John.
		You know, a long time ago, I called you a long time ago and say, when was America ever great for everyone?
		But to Mr. Perkins, you know, you first started out saying about family and all this stuff.
		And I would like to know, and the reason, even though I'm a Republican, but one thing that turned me against Trump is when he was asked a question for any forgiveness he could ask God for, and he said no when we all were born in sin.
		But to you, Mr. Perkins, one of the things that the Bible says is that love God with all your heart and love your neighbor.
		Who is the neighbor?
		And the next last thing I would say is: with all this that's going on, and I'm not for abortion, I would like to know personally from you, how many kids have you adopted that's non-white, if you ever adopted any?
		And how much money do your family personally give to these shelters for kids and everything like that?
		And you know, the part that, like my kids, I was in the military, I retired, and everywhere we went in the world, I made sure my kids go to school.
		Those kids are grown now.
		Can't stand to go to church.
		Why?
		Because they see all the hypocrisy that people like you and all, and even the people that I went on my side go to church because on Sundays, the most segregated day of the week, everybody goes to their corn and talk about their God is better than this person God or that God or this God.
		And it's just so sad that the religious leaders sat back and let the world get in the state that it's in.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		A lot there.
unidentified		Yeah, a lot there, a lot of contradictions there.
		First off, he's not been to my church because our church is very mixed and it's a welcoming place.
		The gospel is a welcoming message to all people, regardless of race or creed.
		And, you know, in terms of hypocrisy, I'm not sure what he's talking about.
		We live out our faith in a very public way.
		I have five children.
		We support a host of ministries that everything from those that respond to disasters like Samaritan's Purse to World Vision that cares for children in foreign countries to care pregnancy centers that help mothers with unwed pregnancies and raising those children.
		And we believe that it is our individual responsibility.
		We don't think the government should be doing all of these things.
		And so we personally put our resources into that because we believe in it.
		We believe the church that ministers to the whole person, not just the physical need of today, but the spiritual need that is eternal.
		And we believe that the church does that best.
		So we partner with ministries that do that, that are holistic in approaching the needs of individuals.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		When he talked about love thy neighbor and asked the question, who is the neighbor?
		My guess, I could be wrong.
		He might be referring to the immigration debate in this country.
unidentified		Well, he may be.
		That's obviously a parable that Jesus told of the Good Samaritan.
		Our neighbor is the person next to us.
		It is, everyone is our neighbor.
		But neighbors, we love our neighbors as well when you talk about the immigration issue by upholding the rule of law.
		In fact, when you see what has been happening over the last few years at the border where children have been trafficked, where women have been abused because we did not uphold the rule of law.
		So it's just like a parent.
		You know, if a parent loves their children, they're going to require that we all adhere to the rules, not just the kids, the parents as well.
		And we model that.
		A free-for-all is not an expression of love.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		To New York, this is Jason on the Independent Line.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Hi, how are you doing today?
		Thank you for taking my call.
		I just wanted to, you know, I see that, Mr. Perkins, how are you?
		Thank you for taking your time out.
		I just wanted to mention, yes, Christian nationalism.
		I know that nobody likes that moniker.
		You know, I remember when it used to be born again.
		Or, you know, it's also aligned with white nationalism, which nobody wants to be involved with.
		But I see you want it kind of both ways.
		You don't want the state to be involved with your church, but you would like your views to be statutes because you don't want abortion to be involved.
		And, you know, I did hear that you agree that, and I agree, that communication is what is needed in this country, especially now since things are so divisive.
		Yet, you know, you want it to be that nobody really gets to have abortion because it's against your beliefs.
		But, you know, I think that maybe we should allow abortion.
		And if you don't believe in it, maybe, you know, then don't allow your women folk to get abortions.
		I think that's the answer, right?
		So you're but you say your view would be that we have abortion.
		My view that we don't have abortion is not valid.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I think we lost the call.
unidentified		No.
		Well, the point is, I go back to what we were talking about.
		It's arriving at a consensus.
		Yes, that's my view.
		Would I like to see that as the law on this land?
		I would.
		But I realize it requires conversation.
		It requires education.
		We've made great advances when you look at technology where people began to see mothers see that this is not what Planned Parenthood said, a blob of tissue within them.
		It is a child that has fingers, that has toes, that has a nose, that often is sucking its thumb, moving around in the womb.
		That has had more of an impact on advancing a pro-life position than anything else.
		So I think technology is on our side as people come to understand that this is in fact life.
		So I'm not for imposing.
		I am for educating and bringing along.
		Yes, is that my goal?
		Not making any, without any hesitation, yes, I would like to see America as a pro-life nation.
		But my view is just as valid as John's view, but it's a matter of coming to a place of conversation.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		When is a realistic timeline in your mind that you could achieve that goal?
unidentified		Oh, I don't know.
		I mean, I think I don't know that we'll ever get there.
		But I think we should aspire toward that.
		Look, we live in a world that is fallen in nature.
		And I come to this from a biblical perspective.
		Man is a fallen.
		And our last caller alluded to this.
		We have to first change the hearts and minds of people before we change the policies by which we're governed.
		Now, that means we have conversations about faith.
		And now, what he was saying about me having it both ways in terms of the church speaking into government, but the government not controlling the church, that's the historical view.
		Yes, it is my view, but it's also the historical view of the separation of church and state of the question you asked me about.
		But I think having the conversations, this, John, is why I'm so concerned about the breakdown of civility where we cannot have conversations.
		I want to be able to share my faith with people that my relationship with Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sin and the freedom that comes from that relationship with him, that it's transformative.
		And I want our children to be able to encounter that and have the choice.
		It's a choice.
		No one can be forced to follow God, but they can have a choice.
		And that choice will really shape the future of our country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		John, in Massachusetts, Republican, good morning.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		This is nothing but a cult.
		It's the same thing when the rich old white man created the Constitution.
		When they came here, there were so many denominations, correct?
		And what happens is, in order for these people to get power with the churches, they sit here and they preach about God and they ask for these $1,000 to send in and all this, but you never do anything for the poor.
		You guys sit there and you hide money.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And John, John, just to be clear, wait, you're calling in on the Republican line.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You say this as a Republican?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
		I am.
		And I want to set this straight.
		So who's this Jesus Christ you're talking about?
		Cesare Bourgier, son of Pope VI?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		All right.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tony Perkins, anything you want to respond to?
unidentified		Not sure how to handle that one.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		John, in Queens, good morning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You're next.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Good morning, gentlemen.
		Mr. Perkins, you know, you have been accused of being the Family Research Council as a hate group.
		You yourself have used David Duke, the racist mailing list, and you've also given speeches to the Council of Conservatives, the White Council of Conservative Citizens, which is a white supremacist group.
		But I just want to say something from very short from a Christian pastor.
		All right, because, you know, you claim your church does all these things.
		You guys are real hypocrites, though.
		Pro-life is pro-hypocrite.
		And this is what a very short thing from a Christian pastor.
		Quote, the unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for.
		They never make demands of you.
		They're morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or chronically poor.
		They don't resent your condensation or complain you're not politically correct.
		Unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy.
		Unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or child care.
		Unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike.
		They allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships.
		And when they're born, you can forget about them.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Got your point, John.
unidentified		Well, you know, John, this goes back to having conversations and not hurling accusations.
		I mean, everybody's entitled to their opinion, but not their own facts.
		And I think that, you know, to first off, basically most of what he said is false.
		I will say this, that I speak to any group.
		I've spoken to Islamic groups.
		I've spoken anywhere that I can present the ideas that we have.
		I think it's important.
		I mean, when I first came to Washington, John, to kind of illustrate this situation, when I first came to D.C. over 20 years ago, you want to guess which network I was on the most?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tell me.
unidentified		MSNBC.
		I was on almost every week with Chris Matthews.
		Now, he didn't agree with me, but we were having conversations.
		How often do you see Republicans on MSNBC today?
		How often do you see Democrats unless it's a...
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you get invited to MSNBC?
unidentified		No, no.
		No.
		No.
		I mean, we've stopped having those types of, I say conversations, they were debates, but they were conversations.
		And I liked, I in fact enjoyed going on MSNBC and even CNN because my goal is to change hearts and minds, not just to talk to the choir all the time.
		And I think we have to be able to do that.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		When you went and talked to the Islamic group, what were you there to talk about?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What was the message?
unidentified		Well, it was back when I was in office, and when I was in office, when you're a public servant, you speak to the public, no matter who it is that invites you to come, and you talk about your agenda.
unidentified		And so I'm not there to placate any particular group, but to lay out the platform and what I was advocating for at the time, which I think was a tax structure or something.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You ran for Senate back in 2002, I think?
unidentified		Correct.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Would you ever be interested in running for political office again?
unidentified		Oh, I might entertain it, possibly.
		But I enjoy what I do.
		I have the opportunity.
		I don't have to worry about getting votes.
		You know, I'm just out here.
		Having served in office, it gives me a unique perspective.
		And it gives me an opportunity to have some really good relationships here on Capitol.
		I mean, Steve Scalise and I, the majority leader, we were elected the same time.
		We've served in the Louisiana House together.
		I know a lot of the men and women in Congress.
		In fact, I've been here longer than most of them and have watched them come up and have built relationships with them.
		And having served in office, it allows you to have kind of a better understanding of where they're coming from.
		I kind of like this role that I have right now that I've had just of helping them, mentoring many of them, and encouraging them in their public walks.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you go to these Bible studies, the member Bible studies?
unidentified		We have a different, oftentimes I will go to the Republican Study Committee and we'll provide devotionals and I do a lot of one-on-one.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What happens at a Bible study with members of Congress for folks who have?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, it's just, it depends.
		There are different various ones.
		Some are doing studies through the Word.
		Others are just doing, you know, getting together, praying, sharing a thought.
		So it just depends on the group.
		But there's a lot of them happening almost every day.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And what's the one-on-one?
		Obviously, you don't need to talk about individual members, but what do you generally do?
		Is it counseling?
unidentified		It's more of a pastoral role, having served as a pastor and having served in office, understanding the demands, praying with them over issues with their families.
		I mean, look, they face the same challenges that you and I and your listeners and viewers face.
		I mean, they have the real-world challenges.
		I mean, they've got finances.
		They've got children.
		They've got issues.
		And on top of that, they're carrying a weight for the people that they represent and for the nation.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		About a minute or two before the House is expected to come in, a reminder that the Senate is also coming in at 10 a.m. Eastern Time.
		And over on C-SPAN 3 at 10 a.m., it's a Senate Finance Committee hearing on the issue of tariffs.
		Jameson Greer, the U.S. Trade Representative, is set to testify.
		As we wait for the House to come in, try to get him one more call.
		Rick in Indiana, can you make it quick?
unidentified		Hello, sir.
		My name's Rick Hood.
		You'd be surprised a lot of churches I go to or have been around or seen people.
		And what they do is they're actually mocking God anymore.
		I don't like going to church.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tony Perkins, as we wait for the house to come in, what would be your pastoral recommendation to him?
unidentified		Well, find a church that honors God by staying in his word and following in his ways.
		And look, it comes back to a personal responsibility.
		And we each have to know the word of God and walk in the ways of God.
		It's a personal thing.
		And I think oftentimes we try to reflect or deflect onto churches and to pastors.
		Jesus came that we might have a personal relationship with him.
		And that's where it begins.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Family Research Council, you can find them online at frc.org.
		Easy enough.
		Tony Perkins is the president of that organization.
		We do always appreciate your time on C-SPAN.
unidentified		John, always great to be with you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's going to do it for us this morning.
		We're, of course, back here tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. Eastern, 4 a.m. Pacific.
		Hope you have a great Tuesday.
		Now, take you to live coverage of the floor of the House of Representatives.

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