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Feb. 28, 2025 10:52-11:00 - CSPAN
07:58
Washington Journal Mark Zandi
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greta brawner
cspan 01:51
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greta brawner
Joining us this morning is Mark Zandy, chief economist for Moody's Analytics, here to talk about the U.S. economy's growing reliance on high-income earners.
Mark Zandy, talk about your research.
What did you find?
What is the headline?
unidentified
Well, Greta, good to be with you.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Well, the American economy is very dependent on the spending of the well-to-do, the folks in the top part of the income and wealth distribution.
I mean, just to give you a stat to make that concrete, the folks in the top 10% of the income distribution account for almost 50% of the personal outlays that we do as consumers.
That gives you a sense of context.
And it obviously goes to the strength of their finances.
Got a job, wage growth is strong, but they've been enjoying record stock prices, record housing values.
They have any debt at all.
It's a 30-year fixed rate mortgage.
They locked in when rates were low.
So they're sitting in a very good financial spot.
And folks in the bottom part of the income distribution, the less well-to-do, lower-income households, they're struggling.
Obviously, they don't own stocks.
They may not own a home.
They have credit card debt, consumer finance loans that they took on to try to maintain their purchasing power when inflation was raging.
They have a job.
That's really important.
That's key to keeping things moving forward.
But other than that, they're struggling with their finances.
So very large differences between the folks at the top part of the distribution and the folks at the bottom part of the distribution.
greta brawner
More from your report.
As you said, the top 10% of U.S. earners, that's people who make $250,000 plus in their households, count for 49.7% of all spending, a record going back to 1989.
This accounts for about, this was accounted for about 36% three decades ago.
So that's the change right there.
Mark Zandy, can you talk about that change?
unidentified
Yeah, that's a very significant change over the decades.
And it does go to the ongoing so-called skewing of the income distribution and wealth distribution.
Very simply, folks that are doing well are doing better and better and better and taking a bigger share of the economic pie.
Now, that doesn't mean that wages and incomes haven't been rising for everyone else for middle-income households, lower-income households.
It has.
It just means that the share of that income, of that wealth, and of that spending has increasingly accrued to the folks at the top part of the distribution.
You know, Greta, you know, it also, there's a lot of, you know, obvious concerns about equity, but there's also concerns about what this means for the economy in that if the economy is so dependent on such a small group of folks, and that group of folks is so dependent on things like stock prices and housing values.
It does give you a sense that the economy is somewhat vulnerable here if things don't stick to scripts.
So when you're looking at the stock market, if it starts to go down, that poses a broader, mortal threat to the broader economy because of the impact that has on the well-to-do and the fact that the well-to-do account for such a large share of what's going on.
greta brawner
How vulnerable?
unidentified
I think it's vulnerable.
I think it's a concern.
That's been brought into clear relief in the last few days.
I don't know if you follow the stock market like I do, but a lot of red on the screen over the last few days and a lot of concern about the stock market.
I mean, the market is very highly valued, richly valued.
Prices are very high to the underlying corporate earnings that support those prices.
And even in the stock market, the gains there are very concentrated.
If you look at the stock, the companies that are driving the stock market, it's the big tech companies, the so-called magnificent seven.
So not only is spending very dependent on a small group that's dependent on the stock market, but the stock market itself is very dependent on a few companies that are kind of driving the train here.
So in my mind, that is a key vulnerability to the broader economy.
greta brawner
Mark Zandi, do you see bubbles in the economy that could pop, that could burst?
unidentified
I don't know.
I go so far as to say it's a bubble.
A bubble implies speculation that people are just buying simply because the price rose yesterday, therefore it will rise tomorrow.
Maybe there's some of that creeping in.
When I see, like, for example, President Trump issued a crypto coin soon after his inauguration, that the value of that jumped significantly.
It's come back down, but it's still worth, last I look, three, four billion dollars.
I mean, and there's just no value there.
There's just nothing.
So that gives you a sense that things are what I'd call frothy, speculative, maybe bubble-like.
I don't want to extrapolate that too far because if you go into the stock market, back into the stock market again, those companies I just mentioned, the tech companies that are driving the gains, they're real companies.
They're joggernauts.
They add real value.
They're very profitable, highly profitable.
The prospects are very good.
So that's not consistent with the idea the market is in a bubble.
I think it's more likely, you could argue it's just very highly valued, richly valued, overvalued, maybe bordering on frothy, but speculative probably in a bubble is probably too far.
greta brawner
We're talking with Mark Zandi this morning, chief economist with Moody's Analytics.
He's here to talk about the U.S. economy and this new report on high income earners.
Here's how we've divided the lines this morning.
If you make under $100,000, dial in this morning at $202,748, $8,000.
If you make between $100,000 and $250,000, your line this morning is $202,748, 8001.
And if you make over $250,000, that 10%, call us at 202-748-8002.
We welcome your comments and your questions this morning.
Mark Zandi, before we get to calls, let's take some headlines this morning from the papers.
The Wall Street Journal, U.S. vows to raise tariffs on three countries, Mexico, Canada, China.
The China move slated to take effect Tuesday, along with the Canada and Mexico actions, doubles up on the previous 10% additional tariff Trump placed on China's products this month.
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