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Feb. 20, 2025 12:53-13:07 - CSPAN
13:57
Washington Journal Paul Dans
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paul dans
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john mcardle
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This afternoon, White House Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt will speak to reporters about the Trump administration agenda.
She's also likely to face questions about the president's position on the Russia-Ukraine war after recently calling Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky a dictator.
We'll have live coverage of the briefing on C-SPAN.
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john mcardle
Paul Dance is back at our desk.
Mr. Dance, the last time you're here was June of 2024.
You were serving as the director of Project 2025, the presidential transition effort at the Heritage Foundation.
Can you just walk us through what happened with you and with Project 2025 in the months since then?
paul dans
Well, you know, Project 2025 was a two-and-a-half-year effort.
We started back in the spring of 2022.
It was really a coming together of citizens all over the country.
We ultimately became 110 groups, all focused on helping the next conservative president be ready to hit the ground running day one.
So what's happened, you know, we got a lot of work done and made a contribution.
And very happy to see that these ideas have entered the bloodstream.
And what President Trump and his team is accomplishing right now is miraculous.
I stepped down from the project in the end of summer 2024.
But, you know, what's going on, we have basically wrapped our work by then.
And I should say I no longer work at the Heritage Foundation, so the ideas today are my own.
But it's been fantastic to watch President Trump really move like Greece Lightning right now.
john mcardle
How much of Project 2025 is evident in today being the first month of the Trump administration, the second Trump administration?
paul dans
Well, this is all Donald Trump.
If a man didn't get up and say fight, fight, fight, none of this would be happening.
So, you know, it's really the indomitable spirit of one man, but that's the essence of leadership.
Many of the ideas that we brought in Project 2025 are common sense.
They're ultimately about bringing people back into our own government.
It's a government of, by, and for the people.
And that was the central postulate of Project 2025, that we needed to deconstruct this unaccountable administrative state.
john mcardle
How do you deconstruct it?
paul dans
Well, you start by making it transparent.
And you have to show the rest of the country what's been actually happening here in Washington.
And that's part of the genius of Donald Trump and working with new folks like Elon Musk to really bring to the fore what we've all kind of suspected.
But what's being unearthed now is earth-shattering, really.
And we're seeing, we have a $2 trillion structural deficit in this country going on $50 trillion of debt.
Anybody who claims that the status quo defends the status quo and says this thing's working is either in on it or completely confused.
john mcardle
I guess the question is, is what we're seeing now Project 2025 in action?
paul dans
Well, it's common sense.
There's a lot of commonality in the sense that what we put forward were in the main a lot of Trump ideas from term one.
So I think what you're seeing is aspirational hopes as well.
Things that people like I, I served in term one, hoped could have been done, but we didn't quite have the political will to do it yet.
We had a Democrat Congress at the latter half there, the House.
And, you know, these were ideas in the main that have percolated through the conservative movement and really just center right for decades.
john mcardle
Remind people what was in Project 2025 was a Department of Government efficiency in Project 2025.
paul dans
The whole thing was about efficiency.
You know, there wasn't per se a department, but the idea with Project 2025 was that the conservatives had to be ready to help the next president govern.
That, you know, as particularly independent streak that we all have in us, the conservatives have never come together as a group.
And it was really important that we put aside the petty differences and support the next president.
So what we did with standing up Project 2025 was a first of its kind, really looking at our friends on the left, looking how they always get ready and saying to the entire country, like, be ready, be prepared.
And, you know, Project, to the extent that there's a reflection of Project 2025 and what's being done by President Trump now, it's that his team is ready to roll.
And they really wanted to be prepared to hit the ground day one.
john mcardle
What do you think the reputation of Project 2025 was by the end of the 2024 election?
paul dans
Well, you know, I think the ideas of Project 2025 and what you see now are extremely popular at base.
What the Democrats had done was probably one of the great electoral failures of all time.
That was they put $300 million, reportedly, into castigating Project 2025 and really a two-part misinformation play.
One, that it had anything to do with President Trump, and two, that many of these, their so-called ideas were reflected in Project 2025.
At the end of the day, it just showed a great contempt for their own base.
And it ultimately, you know, it's the law of unintended consequences.
What you're seeing now is Project 2025, you know, on a whole nother plane, another order of magnitude.
john mcardle
During the election, President Trump and Candidate Trump felt the need to respond to his connection to Project 2025.
This is about 30 seconds during a campaign stop in July.
donald j trump
Like some on the right, severe right, came up with this Project 25, and I don't even know.
I mean, some of them, I know who they are, but they're very, very conservative, just like you have, they're sort of the opposite of the radical left, okay?
You have the radical left and you have the radical right, and they come up with this project, I don't know what the hell it is, it's Project 25.
He's involved in Project, and then they read some of the things, and they are extreme.
paul dans
I mean, they're seriously extreme.
john mcardle
But I don't know anything about it.
unidentified
I don't want to know anything about it.
john mcardle
Extreme came up by the radical right.
I don't know anything about it.
What was your estimation of those comments?
paul dans
Well, there's no person on earth who's been more attacked by fake news than President Trump.
So he has much leeway.
I mean, look, he is a genius at politics, and what he said there is true.
He didn't have anything to do with this.
You know, the left, though, had taken a lot of effort to misframe Project 2025.
And at base, I think he's also made statements subsequent to that that say that many of the ideas are very good.
You know, some of the bad ideas actually are not even in Project 2025.
They were completely grafted on.
For example, the IVF contingent.
There's not a word about IVF, but the Democrats and their allies spent millions of dollars trying to say Project 2025 was going to stop IVF.
Fake news.
john mcardle
Was shutting down or folding in USAID into the State Department, was that, did that come out of Project 2025?
paul dans
Well, Project 2025 does a very good treatment on USAID and really going at the heart of how this operation has been running counter to U.S. foreign interests for decades now.
It's a sieve for unaccountable money.
So what I think that they've done is really take it to another level.
It certainly flagged the issue and talked about bringing it under the aegis of the State Department.
So that's being done.
john mcardle
There's going to be a vote today on Linda McMahon for Education Secretary to move her nomination out of committee to the full Senate, but a lot of discussion in her nomination hearing about reductions to the Department of Education.
Democrats concerned about shutting down the Department of Education.
What does Project 2025 say about the Department of Education?
paul dans
Well, what I would say, Secretary, soon to be, I hope, Secretary McMahon, is one of the dynamic figures of modern life.
She's extremely accomplished businesswoman and former cabinet secretary.
So I fully commend what she's going to do.
You know, with the Department of Education, the Heritage Foundation put out the mandate for leadership in 1980 for President Reagan.
AT THAT STAGE, FOUR YEARS INTO IT, THE BOOK WAS ALREADY CALLING FOR THE ABOLITION OF THE DEPARTMENT.
I THINK WHAT WE'VE UNFORTUNATELY SEEN...
john mcardle
WHAT'S THE BOOK?
paul dans
The book was the mandate for leadership circa 1980.
john mcardle
This was published.
paul dans
This was published by the Heritage Foundation.
This was the original mandate for leadership.
So fast forward 40 years later, we're making the same appeal.
Look, I went to public schools K through 12.
I went on to MIT, undergrad, and graduate degrees in MIT in the University of Virginia.
My mom was a public school teacher.
My mother-in-law is a public school teacher.
You're not going to find someone who more believes in the public school system.
But I really feel it's broken.
I have four kids, and we're now having to homeschool two of them because this great system that I wouldn't be where I am today were it not for those public school teachers.
I saw so much dedication from my own mother doing this work, but the system is not working.
It needs to be put back in the control of states and localities, and the federal mandate needs to kind of relax and be much more accountable to the parents.
john mcardle
What is your role today?
Do you have a role in the second Trump administration?
paul dans
No, right now I'm on the outside.
I am very supportive of the work they're doing.
I just, I'm, you know, every day we wake up, it's Christmas morning.
I'm down in South Carolina.
I'm a proud citizen of South Carolina.
And I'm happy to say that there's a great buoyancy among, I think, just regular everyday Americans that President Trump is delivering on the promises.
Only a Trump, he's an iconic class.
And then when he gets into this tremendous kind of tag team duo with Elon Musk cutting through in a way that the deep state never really saw, I think it's just exciting.
And every day brings a new revelation.
john mcardle
Would you like to go back into the administration, if offered?
Would you go back in?
paul dans
Well, it's always my honor to serve President Trump and the administration.
john mcardle
What did you do in the first term?
paul dans
I first started at HUD.
I had been a longtime Trump supporter.
I worked on the campaign, but I was a New York attorney in white-shoe law firms.
So I hadn't known Washington and how to navigate it.
john mcardle
What's a white-shoe law firm?
paul dans
A white-shoe law firm are the guys who build $2,000 an hour.
And many of them are now suing the Trump administration.
But they're essentially high-end corporate firms.
They work for a lot of corporate America, defending them, going through regulations.
There's a big mass of them here on K-Street.
That's not to say that these are some of the most talented lawyers, but they're expensive.
And that's where I grew up in New York.
You come out of law school, you have a tremendous debt.
You really don't have much of a choice.
I didn't come from means myself.
So I basically kind of followed that trajectory.
That said, it took me two years to get into the Trump administration.
And I started at HUD in the community planning and development under Dr. Carson, which was an honor to serve.
I got a quick taste of bureaucracy and the stifling of Dr. Carson and President Trump's homelessness initiatives.
And then I moved on to the Office of Personal Management, where I was White House liaison and then chief of staff.
john mcardle
Russ Vogt now heading OPM these days?
paul dans
OMB.
john mcardle
OMB, sorry.
Explain who Russ Vogt is and did you work with him?
paul dans
Yes, Russ Vogt's one of the most talented men in the movement.
He was formerly director of OMB in the end of Trump 1 and now has been confirmed to be director again.
john mcardle
He is really Office of Management and Budget.
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