CSPAN - Washington Journal 02/09/2025

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Feb. 9, 2025 07:00-10:03 - CSPAN

03:02:54

Washington Journal 02/09/2025

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kimberly adams

cspan 39:58

skye perryman

23:41

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donald j trump

admin 02:02

reginald dwayne betts

02:09

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james comer

rep/r 00:04

mike johnson

rep/r 00:10

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Coming up on C-SPAN's Washington Journal, we'll take your calls and comments live.
		Then, the president of Citizens Against Government Waste, Tom Schatz, will talk about government efficiency, waste in federal spending, and efforts by the Trump administration and Elon Musk to overhaul the federal government.
		And Sky Perryman, president and CEO of the progressive group Democracy Forward, on legal efforts to challenge the Trump administration's actions.
		Washington Journal starts now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		It's Sunday, February 9th, 2025.
		Elon Musk and his Doge team set off a wave of controversies and legal challenges over the last week.
		The unprecedented access of a private citizen to sensitive government data, raising alarm among lawmakers, along with the rapid efforts to dramatically reduce the size of the federal government.
		This morning, we want to know if you support or oppose Elon Musk's Doge efforts.
		Our line for Republicans, 202-748-8001.
		For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		Independents can reach us at 202-748-8002.
		If you'd like to text us, that number is 202-748-8003.
		Please be sure to include your name and where you're writing in from.
		And on social media, you can find us at facebook.com/slash C-SPAN and on X at C-SPANWJ.
		A variety of reactions from various news outlets to what Elon Musk has been up to over the last few weeks with his Doge system, including the Washington Post editorial board.
		Trump needs to erect guardrails for Doge.
		Careful vetting of staff and limitations on access could improve the project and protect the president.
		Going on to say that Trump promised before the election he would put Musk in charge of Doge, which stands for the Department of Government Efficiency, and then won a mandate for disruption.
		It's also true that the $36 trillion national debt is unsustainable and there's plenty of bloat in government.
		But moving on, it says, yet Musk lacks governing experience and any accountability to voters.
		He has treated the federal workforce rudely and recklessly neglected to distinguish between what's working in government and what isn't.
		What's more, as a government contractor, an avowed opponent of regulatory scrutiny, and a CEO who stands to benefit from certain federal policies, Musk has considerable conflicts of interest.
		This is to say, he should not be allowed to slash and burn the federal bureaucracy to his own heart's desire.
		He needs guardrails, and the president is the one who must provide them.
		One of the more controversial areas of cuts from Doge thus far has been USAID.
		But here's a piece in Fox News, an opinion piece by David Marcus, arguing, if U.S. aid is so vital, where is the global outrage?
		This piece going on to say, if you listen to Democrats these days, you will hear lamentations about the deep cuts the Trump administration is making in the United States Agency for International Development.
		Lives will be lost, they insist.
		But curiously, outside the United States, there has been a deafening silence in regard to this massive shift in how America goes about funding various projects around the world and even some support for the changes in unlikely quarters.
		President Trump was asked about some of the criticisms of Doge in a press conference with Japan's prime minister on Friday, and here's a portion of that question and his response.
unidentified		Mr. President, I wonder what you make of the criticism from Democrats that these staff reductions, the cuts that Elon Musk and Doge are doing are an unlawful power grab.
unidentified		Is there anything you've told Elon Musk he cannot touch?
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Well, we haven't discussed that much.
		I'll tell him to go here, go there.
		He does it.
		He's got a very capable group of people.
		Very, very, very, very capable.
		They know what they're doing.
		They'll ask questions and they'll see immediately as somebody gets tongue-tied that they're either crooked or don't know what they're doing.
		We have very smart people going in, so I've instructed him to go into education, go into military, go into other things as we go along.
		And they're finding massive amounts of fraud, abuse, waste, all of these things.
		But I will pick out a target and I say go in.
		There could be areas that we won't, but I think everything's fertile.
		You know, we're a government.
		We have to be open.
		And as an open government, I don't know, I guess you could say maybe some high intelligence or something.
		And I'll do that myself if I have to.
		But generally speaking, I'll just say go.
		But he will be looking at education pretty quickly, and he will be looking at military, too.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There have been a variety of legal challenges against some of the actions taken by Doge thus far.
		And for the latest on that, there's a story here in CNN just from yesterday of that a federal judge has blocked Elon Musk's Doge access to critical Treasury payment system.
		They're saying a federal judge citing a risk of irreparable harm has temporarily restricted Elon Musk's government efficiency team from accessing a critical Treasury Department payment system.
		The judge's order issued early Saturday temporarily halts access to a sensitive payment system that distributes Americans' tax returns, Social Security benefits, disability payments, and federal employees' salaries.
		Let's get to your calls on whether you support or oppose Elon Musk's Doge efforts.
		Let's start with Robert in Cerritos, California on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Robert.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		As you know, President Trump has been flagrantly violating the law and the Constitution with many of his executive orders.
		So I was very happy to see that Houston Congressman Al Green has filed articles of impeachment against President Donald Trump.
		Now, President Trump rules through the use of intimidation and fear, and that's why I advocate for a secret ballot for his impeachment vote, lest malicious attempt to harm lawmakers' families.
		A secret ballot is often used by lawmakers when censoring one of their own.
		And it only takes a simple majority vote in the Senate to approve a rule change for a secret ballot.
		I think even some Republicans would be very happy to see Trump put out of commission for good, but they need the protection of a secret ballot to make that vote.
		If a secret ballot was used during Trump's first two impeachment votes, we probably wouldn't be in the situation.
		So maybe three is the charm.
		Well, thank you for hearing me out.
		That's about all I have to say right now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Dahlia is in Miami on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		What I want to say is there has been so much waste in this country, and we're so much in debt.
		The Democrats are scared because they have always said, oh, no, the Republicans want to take your Social Security away, your Medicare.
		No, the waste is everywhere.
		I am a retired federal worker.
		And I can tell you about waste.
		When it was coming September 30th, everyone would be in a panic because we would have to spend all the money.
		And it was wasteful.
		My husband also worked for the federal government.
		And one year he was in charge of the balance, of the money.
		His boss called him in to see how he was doing.
		He was working for the BA.
		And when he found out that there was so much money left, he told him, tomorrow morning, we're going shopping.
		Come with the checkbook.
		They went out because they were in a clinic and bought new furniture for the entire office, which they did not need it.
		And it was wasteful.
		And in my office, the budget for the travel, there was a lot of money left.
		And all the big shots, all the ones, they came up with a trip to Italy.
		Now, why did they have to go to Italy?
		Nobody knew.
		And it's waste everywhere.
		And about this USA aid, you can see the kind of money that they spent, our money, because I am retired, but my retirement is taxable.
		And they're wasting money like crazy.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Similar to what Dahlia is saying, there have been many Republicans who have celebrated Doge's move so far, including House Speaker Mike Johnson.
		Here's a story in News Nation, where Johnson says that Doge actions are long overdue and much welcomed.
		This piece going on to say that asked if Musk had been given powers that fall under Article 1 of the Constitution that grants Congress various enumerated powers and the right to pass laws, carry out, to carry out those powers.
		Johnson, a Louisiana Republican, defended the agency, telling reporters that the executive branch of the government has the right to evaluate how agencies within the branch operate.
		Here's him speaking at a news conference last week.
unidentified		But what's happening right now, I think there's a gross overreaction in the media to what is happening.
		The executive branch of government in our system has the right to evaluate how executive branch agencies are operating and to ensure that not only the intent of Congress in funding mechanisms, but also the stewardship of precious American taxpayer dollars is being handled well.
		That's what they're doing by putting a pause on some of these agencies and by evaluating them, by doing these internal audits.
		That is a long overdue, much welcome development.
		That's what the American people demand and deserve.
		And that's what's happening.
mike johnson ▲ ● ▼		So we don't see this as a threat to Article I at all.
unidentified		We see this as an active, engaged, committed executive branch authority doing what the executive branch should do.
		They have broad discretion in all the funding, as you all know, because you follow this.
		When Congress funds an agency, they give broad discretion to the executive branch on how it's administered.
mike johnson ▲ ● ▼		They're using that authority right now in a way it hasn't been used in a long time.
unidentified		So it looks radical.
		It's not.
		I call it stewardship.
		I think they're doing right by the American taxpayer.
		And we support that principle.
		When it comes to the point of codification and legislation and all the rest, we'll be evaluating all those things.
		But right now, I think they're acting within the scope of their authority.
		There's be legal challenges.
		The courts will have some things to say about this.
mike johnson ▲ ● ▼		But as so far as I'm concerned, Chad, this is not a usurpation of authority in any way.
unidentified		It's not a power grab.
unidentified		I think they're doing what we've all expected and hoped and asked that they would do for years.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Some of your reactions on whether you support or oppose Elon Musk's Doge efforts coming from text messages.
		John in San Antonio, Texas says, when the media is running nonstop hit pieces on Elon Musk, I know he must be doing something right.
		You'd think every American would support rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.
		Mike in Hillsboro, North Carolina says, 100% support all actions taken.
		Democrats have lost their minds.
		BC Venice says on X, Musk has to go.
		The richest conflict of interest with access to the Treasury isn't very bright unless you plan on cleaning out the Treasury.
		And then Pam from Randolph, Ohio says, Elon Musk poses a threat to every American.
		With the Republican Senate bought and paid for, we are left vulnerable to a narcissistic and racist man who cares nothing about any of us, especially the most underserved individuals.
		You can text us at 202-748-8003.
		Reach us on Facebook at facebook.com/slash C-SPAN or on X at C-SPANWJ.
		Back to your calls.
		Lauren is in Russellville, Arkansas on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Lauren.
unidentified		Good morning.
		In the last election, I voted for Tummo Harris because I knew that if Trump got in office, Elon Musk would definitely have a lot of influence over what he did.
		And I definitely wasn't expecting this development.
		You know, my wife came into my room when this first started.
		She brought me a plate of spaghetti.
		And when she told me about it, I just got so mad, I just threw that plate of spaghetti across the room, and it got all over her dress.
		She got mad.
		She started screaming at me.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Tommy is in Adger, Alabama, on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Tommy.
unidentified		Good morning, ma'am.
unidentified		How are you doing this morning?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Fine, thank you.
unidentified		Oh, I'm doing good.
		I was just wanting to, I trust E-My Musk, and I trust Donald Trump.
		Look what Biden done.
		He's tore his country apart.
		He's got everybody where they came.
		They can't afford rent, food, or nothing.
		I just want everybody to get find God and just leave everybody alone.
		Let him do his job.
		What we put him in there for.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Are there particular moves that Elon Musk has made so far that you think are particularly good?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		I don't think he's going to mess with anything.
		If he was going to mess with anything, he would.
		He knows better because he knows God's watching over him.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Daryl is in Wilmington, Delaware on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Daryl.
unidentified		Good morning, Kimberly.
unidentified		How are you?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good, thank you.
unidentified		How are you?
		Not so good.
		Do you support or oppose Elon Musk's Doge efforts?
		100%, I oppose it.
		There are gross conflicts of interest.
		And speaking as a federal worker, in all due respect to the caller from Florida, I currently, as a government worker in one of the targeted agencies, have seen the complete dismantling of the morale, the efficiency.
		Sorry, it's a little emotional because as an individual who has had to go through many security clearances, it's quite disalarming that an individual, a private citizen, has so much control and access to our public information.
		Is there any, we have to go through a training called UNEX, which is UNEX training, which shows us how to deal with classified information.
		I wonder: has Elon Musk or any of the individuals that he is empowered to go through our governmental systems and handle our data gone through this training?
		Now, mind you, we have to go through these trainings periodically, as in every it's supposed to be yearly, but they do it every couple of months because there's always updates on policy.
		Um, it's very disalarming.
		Now, in terms of Mike Johnson, there was never more disingenuous individual.
		He says that he's this, and it says, as that speaker of the house, he's supposed to be the steward for the protection of America's Americans and their and what is in their best interest.
		It seems that he is only interested in the political gender of his party and the facilitation, clearly, the facilitation of what's going on with Project 2025.
		And on a further notice, may I just say one more thing?
		Not to speak of racism, but have can you please do a bring up the story of the executive order that Trump, not to bring up a conflict of interest,
		but the executive order of Trump to give preference to Afrikanese or the whether I think it's Afrikanese, the individuals from South America who are non-individuals of color or I believe of European descent to give those refugees priority in their refugee status.
		That's alarming.
		It shows you that there's clearly, clearly, an agenda here to remake and to reshape this country.
		And it's not for the benefit of all, but for the benefit of a certain type or group of individuals.
		I do thank you.
		And if you have any questions for me, I'm here in there to.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, I want to follow up, Darryl.
		Daryl mentioned the team that Musk is working with and the security concerns around that team.
		There's a story in Wired magazine titled The Young Inexperienced Engineers Aiding Elon Musk's Government Takeover.
		Engineers between 19 and 24, most linked to Musk's companies, are playing a key role as he seizes control of federal infrastructure.
		Wired has identified six young men, all apparently between the ages of 19 and 24, according to public databases, their online presences, and other records, who have little to no government experience and are now playing critical roles in Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency project, tasked by the executive by executive order with modernizing federal technology and software to maximize governmental efficiency and productivity.
		The engineers all hold nebulous titles within Doge, and at least one appears to be working as a volunteer.
		There's a comment we received on X from Mary Hemingway, who says, I voted to clean up waste, fraud, and abuse of government spending.
		The Democrats should get on board or they will never win another election.
		The taxpayers are watching you.
		Maxwell is in Culpeper, Virginia, on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Maxwell.
unidentified		Hey, how are you doing, Kimley?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good, thanks.
unidentified		Do you support or oppose Musk's Doge efforts?
		I oppose it.
		My thing is this right here: there's no government.
		There's no government.
		There is no government efficiency doge.
		What is Doge?
		Somebody create it?
		That's just created by the king, Donald Trump.
		And it's amazing to me that people fall in line until their social security get hurt, everything gets hurt.
		There's going to be some hurt going on here.
		And I got so much going on in my mind right now because I can't believe that the people are falling in line for this foolery.
		It's foolery.
		It's just straight foolery.
		That these people are falling in line for a crazy guy that's just going from agency to agency to agency to agency until it affects them.
		And Republicans, you're going to pay for it in the midterms.
		They're going to pay for it in the midterms.
		They're not saying nothing now, but they're going to pay for it in the midterms.
		But the crazy part is this, is that they just sit back and don't say nothing.
		Nothing.
		This guy is, he got my access.
		He got your access.
		He got everybody's access to their accounts, to what they file, and taxes and file.
		And it's amazing that people are that slow.
		I want to be nice and say they're as slow, especially on the Republican side, to say that they are happy with somebody taking and getting all their information.
		I'm not happy with that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, Maxwell, you were mentioning the response of various members of Congress and the potential consequences for Republicans.
		Republicans actually blocked Musk from a congressional subpoena as Doge continues to access government data, as is pointed out in this headline in ABC News.
		Democrats say Musk is ignoring the law and has no authority to cut spending.
		But on Wednesday, congressional Republicans blocked Democratic efforts to compel him to answer for his actions under oath.
		At the same time, protests demanding accountability continued.
		Musk, who has not made any public appearances since the inauguration, has publicly called for slashing the federal government spending.
		And Doge has frozen funding for several agencies, including USAID, the International Aid Agency, designated a special government employee by the White House.
		Musk claims he has been checking in with President Donald Trump about his tactics.
		And that moment in Congress when Democrats were attempting to subpoena Trump caused a bit of controversy and back and forth.
		Let's listen to a moment from the House Oversight Committee hearing last week.
unidentified		Who is this unelected billionaire that he can attempt to dismantle federal agencies, fire people, transfer them, offer them early retirement, and have sweeping changes to agencies without any congressional review, oversight, or concurrence?
		Therefore, Mr. Chairman, given his prominence and his importance, I move that the committee subpoena Elon Musk to come before it as a witness at the earliest possible moment.
		And I so move.
		There's been a motion and second.
		The motion is not debatable.
		Mr. Chairman, why is it not debatable?
		Point of order.
		It is debatable.
		Mr. Chair, I strike the last one.
		Hold on.
		Mr. Chairman.
		I'm going to table the motion.
		Okay.
		Mr. Chairman, why don't we want to debate Elon Musk coming in and talking to us about his work and how he's enriched himself with $64 billion?
		Mr. Chairman.
		The chair recognizes Dr. Fox.
		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		I move to table the motion.
		There's a second.
		Motion to table.
		There's a second by Mr. Higgins.
		Point of order.
james comer ▲ ● ▼		The motion is not debatable.
unidentified		As many point of order, Mr. Chairman are in favor of tabling.
		Point of order.
		Point of order, state your point.
		Mr. Chairman, I think it's outrageous that this committee will not even entertain a motion.
		that's not a point of order A motion to break the order.
		Let's have order in this country.
		You're out of order.
		You know you're out of order.
		You know the rules of this committee.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		At the same time, there's a report here in the Hill that GOP support for Musk's influence with Trump has fallen dramatically.
		Going on to say the share of Republicans who say they want tech billionaire Elon Musk to have significant influence in the Trump administration has fallen substantially in the months since President Trump was elected.
		In the Economist YouGov poll taken in the days after the November 2024 election, 47% of surveyed Republicans said they wanted Musk to have a lot of influence in the Trump administration, while 29% wanted a little and 12% wanted him to have none at all.
		Today, however, the share of Republicans who say they want Musk to have a lot of influence has fallen substantially to 26%.
		Meanwhile, 43% of Republican respondents say they want Musk to have a little influence, and 17% say they want him to have none at all, according to the latest poll from the Economist YouGov released on Wednesday.
		Back to your calls.
		Mike is from Wisconsin and on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Mike.
unidentified		Good morning.
		You know, I've been listening to you guys all week, and you have once again failed the viewers of this show.
		Not once, maybe even for one minute, you guys actually went through a little bit and showed, what was his name, Kennedy, talking about what is actually in USAID that needs to get cut and that is being cut.
		One minute.
		Everything else you're talking about is, do you support Musk?
		Do you hate him or do you like him?
		So please let me go through a small list of things that the left is pushing on the entire world.
		And by the way, the American voter, almost 80% of Americans said the country was going in the wrong direction before the election.
		So the American people do not want DEI, do not want this in our own country, yet we're going to pay for it for other countries.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mike, did you want to mention some of the things that you I thought you said you wanted to highlight some of the things that were problematic about USAID?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Was DEI the main one?
unidentified		No, I'm going to go over the list.
		You're going to not interrupt me, and I'm going to go through the list.
		So we have $6 million to fund tourism in Egypt.
		Do you support or not for taxpayer dollars?
		$25K for transgender opera.
		Let's do $1.5 million to advance DEI in Serbia.
		$10 million for meals for al-Qaeda-affiliated fighters in Syria.
		Now, that's just a couple of things.
		This list I have is $60 million.
		Where are you getting this list from, Mike?
		Why don't you, you know, if you watched more than just the sheets, the liberal media sheets that you have in front of you, you would see it.
		Watch newsmaps.
		They're all talking on it.
		Guess what?
		Our own press secretary has said it all week.
		You show clips of her, but you refuse to show her talking about what's in this crap.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, here's a story from the Associated Press.
		Not sure if that's one of the news organizations that you do or do not like, but highlighting what USAID does and why Trump and Musk want to get rid of it.
		Dozens of senior officials put on leave, thousands of contractors laid off, a freeze put on billions of dollars in humanitarian assistance to other countries.
		Over the last two weeks, President Donald Trump's administration has made significant changes to the U.S. agency charged with delivering humanitarian assistance overseas that has left aid organizations agonizing over whether they can continue with programs such as nutritional assistance for malnourished infants and children.
		But let's look at some of the things that USAID funds.
		Sorry.
		Going down, critics of USAID say that funding for U.S. United Nations agencies, including peacekeeping, human rights, and refugee agencies, have been traditional targets for Republican administrations to cut.
		The first Trump administration moved to reduce foreign aid spending, suspending payments to various UN agencies, including the UN Population Fund, and funding to the Palestinian authorities.
		In Trump's first term, the U.S. pulled out of the UN Human Rights Council and its financial obligations to that body.
		Why is Elon Musk going after USAID?
		This is because Musk alleges USAID funding has been used to launch deadly programs and called it a criminal organization.
		Sub-Saharan Africa could suffer more than any other region during the aid pause.
		The U.S. gave the region more than $6.5 billion in humanitarian assistance last year.
		There's also already ramifications in Latin America.
		In Mexico, a busy shelter for migrants in southern Mexico has been left without a doctor.
		And it goes on to list many other items where U.S. aid funding has been cut.
		Let's go to Mike in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Mike.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		Do you support or oppose?
		I completely oppose Elon Musk.
		I find his presence at any lever of American power to be fundamentally noxious and antithetical to the constitutional experiment.
		I watch this show pretty frequently.
		I find it pretty foolish when I hear people call in and try to cheer on what this guy is doing with USAID with his little goons because $64 million is dropped in the bucket.
		Elon Musk, between SpaceX and Tesla, has received nearly $15 billion with a B dollar from the American taxpayer over the course of the last decade.
		And we have pretty much nothing to show for it.
		His companies have basically put two really, really valuable fields in a headlock.
		He has failed to deliver anything that actually benefits the American people in any way.
		And he's basically on a it's an ego trip.
		You know what I mean?
		Like, you know, both Trump and Musk are men who are making the rest of the world pay for their terrible relationships with their fathers.
		They're the rest of ours.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Line is breaking up, Mike.
		So we're going to go to Carmen in Florida on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Carmen.
unidentified		Thank you, Kimberly, for taking my call.
		Although I've been on hold and I've been hearing 50 more things that gets me like railed up as far as my comments.
		Let me try to get this straight.
		I want to focus on the word trust.
		And the reason I say that is because I oppose it for the simple reason.
		I have no problem with corruption.
		I've been complaining about corruption since I was 20 years old.
		I'm 66 and retired in Florida now, and I'm still complaining about corruption.
		And I ask the people on C-SPAN listening now about the word trust.
		Do you really trust a really super wealthy man and corporations that they're going to do the right thing and trickle down the money to the American public and help us?
		And the reason I said it is because we're talking about, they keep complaining about Democrats.
		I don't know what that's all about.
		Like the blame game, back and forth, back and forth, and it's getting us nowhere.
		It doesn't help the situation.
		My thing to the C-SPAN viewers is this.
		What do you think is going to happen with the extra money they're saving?
		There was just a gentleman that was just doing recently, and I can remember that because he just said it.
		Trickle-down economics didn't work.
		Corporations and businesses took the money, sold back stock to make their corporations bigger.
		They trickled down a little bit just to make you satisfied a little bit, but the majority and the bulk of the money went to them.
		And the same thing's going to happen here.
		They're going to find all these ways of saving money.
		And the other word is morals, right?
		We have children dying around the world right now because of these ways of cleaning up corruption.
		You can't just stop the whole thing.
		I have no problem with Elon Musk taking these 25, 15 little guys, going in front of Congress, getting vetted, and going through the process and getting in there and cleaning it up.
		What they're doing is draining the swamp.
		And they're draining the swamp for one reason.
		And what I want to know out of this, if you can bring an episode on it, where's the money going to go?
		What's the plan?
		What is this all about?
		Because I really believe what this is, is about saving money, showing the American people that they did something.
		And in the background, we're going to get these big trillion-dollar major cuts to super rich people in taxes.
		And that's exactly what the plan, I believe, is right now, until someone can tell me different.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So do you support or oppose these efforts?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I understand that you are.
unidentified		I oppose it in the form and the process of way they're doing it.
		I don't oppose cleaning up corruption.
		Democrats have been fighting against corruption for I don't know how long.
		And you have people on this station that come on and say these things, and if they would just look at the truth and the records, every time Republicans got in power, they jacked up that deficit.
		And then every time Democrats got in power, they tried to knock it back down so our country would be safer financially.
		And that's the truth.
		There's nothing, I don't care if you're watching Newsmatch and some of these other stations out there, they're lying to you.
		The truth is that Republicans, they voted on a lot of these corruptions that Musk is cleaning now.
		Republican congressmen voted for this stuff.
		All right.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's go to our Republican line with Jan in Centralia, Florida.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Jan.
unidentified		Hi.
		I agree.
		First of all, our country is so corrupted.
		It's so disgusting for either party.
		I don't know that I exactly agree with Elon Musk being in there doing what he's doing, but I'm more disgusted with both sides, the Democrat and the Republicans, why they haven't got off their cans and taken hold of this and went into something like this, and they tried to go through stuff and check it out.
		You know, they're just as guilty, if not more, they're more so guilty than what this president is trying to have.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Just to be clear, when you say that you're upset with Democrats and Republicans for not getting a hold of this, do you, what are you talking about?
unidentified		About what we're what Elon Musk is in there doing.
		You know, it should have been done by a true auditor outside of being a government employee.
		But I don't know that he is called an auditor.
		And the Democrats are protesting against this man because he is a billionaire.
		That's all you hear.
		He's a billionaire.
		He's a billionaire.
		You know, he is a very smart man, but what's going on may not have been the accurate way to have addressed the issue of trying to save in this government of the excess spendings.
		And it's very disgusting what has been pointed out.
		But I do not believe for one moment that our president is wanting to cut off all the aid for our little babies and stuff and a lot of other people in need of food and et cetera for help.
		I do not believe that for one moment.
		He's too much of a caring president.
		I do believe in my heart.
		And should not be done so if he has done it totally, which I understand he hasn't, and I pray not that he has, but something has to be done.
		And apparently our own Senate and House does not want to get this dirty done.
		And somebody has needed to get this done for many years to do cleanup.
		And if this man can go in and if they can get it cleaned up, point out stuff, good luck.
		But I think the way it was addressed, but all of this was already told by this president long before election day that this was exactly what was going to happen.
		And if they didn't like it, they should have voted against him.
		And maybe some did, maybe some didn't.
		That's not the point.
		But this government does need a lot of house cleaning, as they'd say, as one would say.
		There's too much money going out of our own country for a lot of things that should have never been, you know, drag queens and et cetera, et cetera, things like that that money was spent on.
		No, no, absolutely not.
		We have too many homeless, sick, mentally ill.
		There's just way too much in our own country that needs to be taken care of first.
		We should be first.
		And that's why.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Edward is in Ohio on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Edward.
unidentified		You get my call.
		Listen, I absolutely oppose Elon Musk's dog efforts or doggy.
		I like the name doggy better.
		Donald Trump is a big liar, right?
		He, during the campaign, absolutely denied any knowledge of Project 2025.
		But here we have Elon Musk executing the playbook here.
		And any Republican in Congress, whether they're in the Senate or in the House, that supports this, really, I think, is presiding over the destruction of democracy in our country.
		I think it's disgusting.
		And I think it's dangerous.
		And the other thing is, is that what does Elon Musk really want?
		Ask yourself that.
		What does this guy really, really want?
		He's the richest man in the world.
		He's running around the country, scaring the hell out of people.
		Got a group of 25 kids running around, you know, rooting through computer systems.
		What does he really, really want?
		That's another question.
		Thanks.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Steve is in Mart, Texas, on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Steve.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
		Bro, I sure hope I'm a Christian conservative and a Republican.
		I sure hope you give me the time that you've been giving these Democrats that's been bashing everything.
		You know, there was an election here back on November the 5th.
		There was an election, and the American people clearly voted to, they want to find out where this corruption and all their money, tax mayor, taxpayer money's at.
		80% of the American people want to track where this money's coming from.
		And that's what Musk is doing.
		Now, all these left-wing lunatics over here and Samantha Powers has been one of the people that's been behind giving our money, billions of dollars to stupid things overseas about this sex change operations overseas and illegal money.
		And she's been funding this money overseas.
		And I know you want to cut me off because I'm a Christian conservative and you're going to have somebody else cut me off.
		And the man from Wisconsin a while ago, the Republican that called in, he hit it the nail on the head.
		He hit the nail on the head right there.
		Because y'all won't cover.
		You'll read from some liberal like the Hill.
		That's a liberal newspaper.
		You'll read from it.
		And there's going to be a hearing on this, I think, next week or February the 13th, if I'm not mistaken.
		And there's going to be a hearing up on the House about the corruption of the USAID and where all of our billions and billions of taxpayer money has been going for a long time to left-wing lunatics that's been running it.
		Now, and this stupid DEI mess.
		And I know you don't want to hear that because you're left-wing yourself.
		You want to cut me off?
		You want to cut me off right now because you want to have somebody else cut me off.
		But y'all have been doing this all week long.
		Just like Wisconsin man that called in a while ago, he told it exactly the way.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to ask you of the moves that Elon Musk is.
unidentified		Here we go.
unidentified		Here we go.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So far, which of the cuts in particular are you most in support of?
unidentified		All this silly money the USAID did that's going overseas for sex change operations that have been diverted to the mosque murder and killers.
		All this money, there's a list that Caroline Levitt read it off just the other day.
		She read, well, she read part of the list.
		The list is so long, but there's going to be a hearing on it, I think, coming up February the 13th on the Hill.
		And the Washington Examiner exposed it too.
		You don't read from no conservative newspapers.
		You always pick the liberal newspapers, and you'll let these left-wing lunatics call in and let them talk and talk and talk.
		And as long as they run Trump down, you're all for it.
		You're all for that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I do think we have your idea, Steve.
		Let's go to Kevin in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Kevin.
unidentified		Good morning.
		First of all, I'm proud to be, as the previous caller has labeled me so eloquently as a left-wing lunatic, even though I call them the independent money.
		Everyone, no matter where you're from, no matter what you look like, no matter what religion, because it's Sunday, they got to make sure that they're identified, most of your colleagues, as a Christian American, a Christian nationalist, conservative.
		That has nothing to do with anything.
		The question that you put to the viewers, do we agree, okay, what Elon Musk is doing.
		So, to make that point, absolutely not.
		It's out of control.
		Now, here's my take on it.
		It has nothing to do with weeding out corruption.
		It has to do what are they going to do with that information, as previous collars said.
		Oh, Elon doesn't want it.
		He has all the money.
		What a smokescreen.
		Put someone in charge who's loaded, and you can't say, Well, I put him in there because he's going to take the money.
		He has the most money, okay?
		It's almost laughable to show the ignorance on both sides, right, of what is really going on.
		Here's my take: I'm an accountant by trade.
		I do not like the fact, okay, that a private, unsanctioned, because Congress still has the power.
		Last time I checked when I got up this morning, and the government is still intact.
		We do have a thing called the Constitution.
		Why is this person in charge?
		Trump is very smart.
		Trump, yes, did win the election.
		We're all aware there was an election.
		One of my clients asked me last week, I know how you voted.
		Were you surprised that he won?
		No.
		I was not surprised.
		Did I like it?
		No.
		But back to the issue that you put forward to us this morning.
		In the ruling of the judge who blocked it, said they are immediately to cease, okay, and destroy any information that they have obtained.
		Now, the eggheads, I call them, out of respect, the tech boys and women, right, they have that information somewhere, okay?
		It's like the jury will disregard it.
		No, you can't do that.
		And as far as the hearings and stuff, we know how it's going to go.
		And if you flip the coin, it's going to, let's say the Democrats are in power.
		They're going to try to overrule the Republicans.
		The country is divided.
		And I have one last point.
		I think you guys are unbiased.
		I think you present all sides.
		Well, actually, two points.
		But my main point is this.
		Where's this 80%?
		Where do they, you know, I had a professor ask me one time when we were all going in a political science class, espousing our ideas.
		And she said something very important that I learned decades ago.
		What is the source?
		Okay.
		I want to know, everyone's calling in on the right saying 80%.
		Where did that 80% figure come from?
		So to summarize, no.
		It's a pretext.
		It's a stop and grab.
		That's all it is.
		And Trump is smart.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I think we got your idea there.
		Kevin, I want to go to some of the comments we've received from social media and text messages.
		This text message from Marie in Sebring, Florida, who says, oppose Musk in every way.
		Don't remember his name being on the 2024 election ballot.
		Another dictator.
		Tim Bo in Mountain Home, Arkansas.
		Yes, I oppose Elon Musk and his efforts to find fraud and abuse in the government.
		He's not vetted.
		He's not part of the government.
		What we have here is a smokescreen hiding what Trump is going to do.
		Add another $10 trillion to the national debt and leave America as a wasteland.
		That's it, America.
		Don't be fooled.
		Tommy in Sarasota, Florida says, if Democrats love waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer money, maybe they should have their taxes raised to pay for it.
unidentified		And then not sure who this came from.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Please make sure you include your name and where you're writing in from when you text us.
		I'm really tired of Republicans and their willful ignorance.
		I would remind all of you that we had inspector generals in most departments, but Trump fired them all.
		And we have something called the Government Accounting Office, it's Government Accountability Office.
		We don't need Elon or Doge.
		Wake up, we are being scammed.
		And then Sam from Salem, New Jersey says, I believe there is waste in government, but this is not the right way to go about getting rid of it.
		Musk has conflicts of interest, and this seems more like a mission of retribution instead of one of saving money.
		If this was about money, we would not be spending so much taxpayer money, millions of dollars, to send Trump to Mar-a-Lago and the Super Bowl.
		And Bruce in Haskins, Ohio, totally support Doge and Elon Musk.
		It's great seeing how a real administration works hard for us citizens.
		No, we see the reason why, now we see the reason we are so deep in national debt.
		Back to your calls.
		Paula is in Madison, Wisconsin on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Paula.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Do you support or oppose Elon Musk's Doge efforts?
unidentified		I oppose Doge.
		And I want to point out that Donald Trump has, he wasn't, he misled his followers.
		I believe they had no idea that Elon Musk would be put in that actual position in doing what he's doing.
		He hasn't been cleared of security.
		This is outlandish.
		But you have to really look at it.
		You're talking, I don't even know if Donald Trump is the president as a president as he was before.
		He seems like he wants to be a developer.
		He throws out these shiny balls saying, the shiny ball, we're going to take over Gaza.
		What common sense is that clearly that he does not have the American people in his heart to do right for the American people while the grocery bills are going up higher during all this calamity that's going on.
		It's despicable and it should be a shame.
		And to the caller from Texas, there are many people that live in America.
		He's not the only person that America represents.
		I don't know why people don't get it, that there are a lot of different people here in America.
		He's a Christian.
		Hopefully someday we'll all learn to live together.
		But, you know, there's a lot of problems.
		So I'm completely against Elon Musk.
		He needs to go, and especially with his salute.
		Goodbye.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Patrick is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Patrick.
unidentified		You know, I'm an intellectual property specialist, and I've got to tell you, I'm absolutely stunned at the disinformation, not only the information that you are articulating, which has nothing but what left-wing talking points.
		You're not even representing the basic facts.
		Our nation is $37 trillion in debt.
		The debt is so high that we are running out of the capacity just to produce enough taxes just to service it.
		The obscenity of this news organization of left-wing news organizations malign this marvelous man who's worth $500 billion.
		He could have sat on his mega dogs.
		He could have just sat on his money.
		He could have utilized every experience imaginable, but he really cares about the United States.
		His reverence for the Constitution is unprecedented.
		I'm an intellectual property specialist.
		I've been on this show.
		I've been on C-SPAN and this show for so many times.
		And I can tell you functionally, we are on the precipice of an economic implosion, which he's trying to prevent.
		Anybody assaulting you unless you just don't know what you're talking about.
		Within one year, you will be able to purchase your own humanoid robot, which will make your life a thousand times easier.
		Why would you assault a brilliant soul who's like the combination of Leonardo da Vinci and Einstein?
		It's so obscene what we are witnessing, the shamefulness of this entire appalling exercise.
		You don't deserve him.
		You don't deserve someone that is this committed to the Constitution of the United States and the framework.
		And it's marvelous that he's from another country.
		He comes from another country.
		His reverence is a thousand times more than anyone in any of these Democratic news organizations.
		And by the way, why do you, you would literally hang up in a New York second if a person called into this news organization, identified themselves as an independent, and announced that he lied, that he's an independent and is an ultra-left-wing man.
		So you need to have experts like myself.
		And here's what's going to happen.
		As an intellectual property specialist, the failure to come together about the immigration issue is going to fundamentally change the very paradigm of America because we're not, this is Americans who are registered Americans.
		The jobs that they're going to be eliminated, there will not be any illegal immigrants being able to be provided work when humanoid robots are literally right around the corner.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Next up is Lewis in Pennesawkin, New Jersey on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Lewis.
unidentified		Good morning.
		The only thing I have to say is that there's been lists of the wasteful spending, and you guys refuse to put it up.
		And the reason all these Democrats are against it is because they haven't seen the list because they watch CNN and OSNBC.
		All right?
		You get $20 million in Afghanistan to start a Sesame Street show.
		You have thousands and thousands of dollars around the world that is just total wasteful.
		Trump's not going to cut off humanitarian aid, and you shouldn't even put that up there.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, Lewis, I want you to finish your point, but just to add some numbers to what you're saying, the Peter G. Peterson Foundation is tracking what they call annual improper federal payments.
		And they say that improper, this is just not specifically for USAID, but throughout the federal government, saying that improper payments have grown sharply over the last few decades, from $35 billion, or 1.6% of outlays in 2003, to $236 billion, or 3.8% of outlays in 2023.
		The amount of improper payments reached a high of $281 billion in 2021 at the peak of the pandemic.
		Such payments, going on just to give examples of what these improper payments are.
		And though the level of improper payments has waned over the last three years, with the gradual expiration of many provisions related to the pandemic, improper payments remain high.
		So those are just some numbers, not specifically for USAID, which is what I believe you're talking about, but improper payments throughout the federal government.
		So please go ahead, Lewis.
unidentified		There's so much corruption, so much kickbacks.
		You got $4 million going to the Wahoo Labs in China.
		It's on both sides.
		They all know what's going on.
		And 10,000 people working for this USAID, whatever it is, 10,000?
		What are these folks making?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's hear from Michelle in Montgomery, Alabama on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Michelle.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good morning, and thank you for having me.
		I've listened to all the callers, and as Americans, we are definitely all over the place.
		I hear the conservatives saying that liberals don't read their news, but they don't read liberal news either.
		So we're definitely divided.
		But the question is, do I support Elon Musk and Does?
		No, I do not.
		No, I do not support them in the U.S. Treasury with our information.
		That's like inviting a foreigner into your own personal home, asking to see everything that you have to make sure you're spending your money the way your money should be spent.
		Now, that's problematic because what does he need with our information?
		And none of us can say what he has or don't have.
		And it's interesting that the House would shut down a review of Elon Musk.
		Like, why wouldn't you want him to come in to explain what he's doing?
		What is the agenda?
		What is the objective?
		Is it to duly spend, you know, to reel in the abuse and the fraud?
		And I want to make another point, and I will continue to listen to the other callers.
		Elon Musk is the richest man in the world in the entire world.
		And he has no program to feed no one hungry, to do anything for anyone humanitarian.
		So why come to America?
		We're one of the richest countries in the world, and we have the ability to help others.
		So why come to America?
		And why would you come to our treasury system if we are the richest country in the world?
		We have checks and balances, and yes, Americans voted for Trump, but we did not vote for this.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to get to one more caller before we have to end our segment.
		Kelly is in Dallas, Texas, on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Kelly.
unidentified		Yes, thank you for taking my call.
		And I just wanted to put this out here, if you can get your head around this, Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency, was actually put in place by Obama.
		And of course, he never did anything with it.
		I'm sure that was a brilliant idea, and they probably thought, oh, this sounds good, Mr. Obama.
		And yes, yes, Barry Satoru actually put Doge in place.
		And I'm glad that we're finally getting to the bottom of some of this reckless spending.
		Yes, we voted Trump in to do exactly what he's doing right now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean that the Obama administration put Doge into place?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I'm not clear what you mean by that.
unidentified		Well, they actually coined this agency.
		This Department of Government Efficiency was actually born, birth, by the Obama administration.
		Of course, they didn't really, they didn't put anybody in there and they never did anything with it.
		Are you following me?
		Yeah, they started this agency, that Trump is now using.
		And I'm sure somebody very smart politically told Trump that, hey, here's this Doge department sitting here that's not doing anything, but would be good to go in and kind of go through the books.
		And I'm glad they're doing it.
		U.S. aid and these other left.
		I heard a senator the other day, I wish I remembered his name, but they interviewed him.
		And he was saying that, you know, the Senate and the other, the Congress, they've been trying to get to the bottom of U.S. aid for a long time because there was no transparency.
		This is like a slush bug where they're just sticking lots of money, but every time they asked for, you know, where the money was going, you know, they got the hoo-ha.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, Kelly, I'm going to let you finish your point, but just for the benefit of others, I believe I found what you're referencing.
		This is from the archived website from the Obama administration and executive order 13576.
		This is from June 13th of 2011, delivering an efficient, effective, and accountable government.
		This was the Obama administration saying that in order to cut waste, streamline government operations and reinforce the performance and management reform gains my administration has ordered.
		And it goes on to set out, among other things, an accountable government initiative, and then instituting a federal chief performance officer and a few other, and also the OMB providing guidance to agencies to identify areas of program overlap and duplication within and across agencies and for proposing consolidations and reductions to address those inefficiencies.
		This is what you're referencing, Kelly?
unidentified		Yes.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you.
unidentified		Yes, I am.
		But this was, yes, yes.
		That's generally, generally, yes.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I just wanted to make sure I let you finish your point.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Was that it?
unidentified		Yes, thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		And thanks to everybody who called in this segment.
		Up next, we're going to continue our look at the Trump administration's efforts to cut the size of government.
		Tom Schatz will be our guest.
		He's the president of the group Citizens Against Government Waste.
		And later, we'll talk with Sky Perryman, president and CEO of the advocacy group Democracy Forward, about the legal strategy to counter the Trump administration's actions.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Tonight on C-SPAN's Q&A, ex-convict, award-winning poet, and Yale Law School graduate Reginald Dwayne Betts is our guest.
unidentified		He wrote the afterword for a new commemorative edition of Dr. King's Letter from Birmingham Jail and talks about the book and the work done by Freedom Reads, an organization he founded that builds libraries in prisons.
reginald dwayne betts ▲ ● ▼		You know, the judge might have been under no illusion that sending me to prison will help, but he did say I could get something out of it if I tried.
		And I think that this is a testament, not just that I got something out of it, but that I came home to a world where it might feel overwhelming.
		It might feel like it is absolutely hard to make a way when you have hurt somebody in the past.
		But I also came to a world that has radically changed and shifted and created more and more opportunities for people to reflect on the ways in which they've changed and to be welcomed back into what I like to think of as King Save the Beloved Community.
unidentified		Reginald Duane Betts tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN's QA.
		You can listen to Q&A and all of our podcasts on our free C-SPAN Now app.
		This week on the C-SPAN Networks, the House and Senate are in session.
		The House will consider legislation establishing new penalties for evading U.S. Border Patrol agents in car chases.
		The Senate continues voting on President Trump's cabinet nominees, including Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as Health and Human Services Secretary.
		The chair of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, will give the semi-annual monetary policy report before two committees: first on Tuesday before the Senate Banking Committee, and then on Wednesday before the House Financial Services Committee.
		Also, C-SPAN continues our comprehensive coverage of confirmation hearings for President-elect Trump's cabinet nominees.
		The Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee will hold hearings for two cabinet nominees.
		On Wednesday, former Oregon Republican Congresswoman Lori Chavez-DeReamer, the nominee for Secretary of Labor.
		And on Thursday, for former businesswoman Linda McMahon, who's a nominee for a Secretary of Education.
		Also, on Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee will vote on the nomination of Kash Patel for director of the FBI.
		Watch live on the C-SPAN networks or on C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app.
		Also, head over to C-SPAN.org for scheduling information or to watch live or on demand anytime.
		C-SPAN, Democracy Unfiltered.
		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back for more on the Trump administration's efforts to reduce the size of government.
		I'm joined now by Thomas Schatz, who's the president of Citizens Against Government Waste.
		Welcome to Washington Journal.
unidentified		Thank you, Kimberly.
unidentified		Glad to be on.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you talk a little bit about your organization, what you do, and how you're funded?
unidentified		Citizens Against Government Waste was founded by J. Peter Grace and Jack Anderson following the report of the Grace Commission under President Ronald Reagan, which was the last time there was a comprehensive review by the private sector of the federal government.
		I joined Citizens Against Government Waste in 1986 following six years on Capitol Hill working for Congressman Hamilton Fish Jr. from New York.
		And our funding comes from taxpayers, associations, corporations.
		Anyone who wants to cut wasteful spending is free to support CAGW.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you talk a little bit more about the Grace Commission?
		And also, as a previous caller mentioned, there was an effort by the Obama administration to reduce government waste.
		So this is not the first time we've been here.
unidentified		No, it's not.
		The Grace Commission was created.
		It was called the President's Private Sector Survey on Cost Control.
		Hence, you see why it ended up being the Grace Commission.
		Chaired by J. Peter Grace, 161 corporate executives, attorneys, accountants, and about 2,000 volunteers spent a year and a half reviewing the functions of the federal government.
		The report was 47 volumes, 2,478 recommendations.
		That would have saved $424 billion over three years.
		Ten years after the Grace Commission report, President Reagan said they had saved $240 billion at that point, about 60 percent of the total.
		And over time, CAGW has tracked Grace Commission recommendations and other proposals we have made that have added up to $2.4 trillion in savings since the organization was founded.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		This week you testified before the House Oversight Committee during a hearing they had on right-sizing the federal government, which is something your organization is obviously focused on.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Why is this needed in general, the idea of right-sizing the federal government?
unidentified		Well, I was watching some of the questions and comments before I came on now, and people have an idea of how much money is being wasted in Washington.
		One of the problems is that nobody really knows.
		Improper payments is a great example.
		You showed that information, $236 billion in 2023, but $2.7 trillion since 2003.
		And there have been four pieces of legislation plus a separate bill on fraud, and yet the numbers keep going up, or at least are now steady at around $236 billion.
		So if you're talking about Elon Musk's $2 trillion, well, that's more than 10% in a year.
		The problem is that no one knows how that money is being paid out.
		That's the reason why they're looking at the payments systems.
		Why are these payments being made?
		Who are they going to?
		These are people who are ineligible.
		They're overpaid.
		This is not anything that would happen in the private sector.
		Nobody would pay bills that they didn't need to pay, and that's essentially what's happening here.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Now, what do you think of the way that this is happening?
		Most people that are complaining about this are complaining about the process more so than the actions themselves.
		President Trump putting Elon Musk and Doge behind this effort.
		Do you feel confident in the way that this is being rolled out?
unidentified		Well, anyone who thinks this wasn't going to happen wasn't paying attention.
		He was very clear during the campaign, President Trump, about putting Elon Musk in charge of the Department of Government Efficiency.
		And people elected him, and that is exactly what he's doing.
		So there may be some testing of some limits in terms of what the executive branch can accomplish, but somebody needs to do something.
		I'm not saying they should do it illegally, but I'm saying that this is the executive branch of the White House with a group of people they have asked to look at how money is being spent.
		In principle, that makes perfect sense.
		And again, you have $236 billion of money going out of the federal government, supplemental security income, Medicare, Medicaid, earned income tax credit.
		Those are four of the top six areas of improper payments.
		Medicare money should be going to Medicare beneficiaries, and if that can be fixed, there's more money for them.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Now, you said that this should all be done within the law.
		There have been several lawsuits against many of these actions.
		Do you believe that the actions thus far have been within the confines of the law?
unidentified		Well, again, I think they're testing some of those limits, and I also think some of those decisions may be changed over time.
		But the fact that federal employees are saying don't come in and look at how we're spending money, it's not the same thing as saying they're doing it illegally or they're bevealing people's information, that they can look at it and they can determine or help determine whether that system is working.
		Look, federal systems are incompatible with each other.
		And I think the easiest thing to point out is there is no single place that anyone can go to find out exactly how each dollar is being spent in the federal government.
		There are many states that have that information online, Ohio, Arizona, and others, and that was part of what was discussed at the hearing, that the federal government doesn't have that.
		Why not?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There was a lot of controversy is, including lawsuits, about Elon Musk, in particular taking over the federal payments system.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And I wonder if you think that this falls within the realm of Doge's original mandate and whether you think this is an important thing to do.
unidentified		Well, it's the way that was phrased, right, the taking over of the systems.
		When the Grace Commission did its work, the executive order establishing the Grace Commission asked for and required cooperation between the agencies and the Grace Commission workers.
		It's essentially the same process.
		This group works inside of the White House.
		They are part of the executive branch.
		They should be able to look at how money is being spent.
		They're not running the systems.
		They're not revealing the information.
		They can't do that.
		But they should know how that is being done.
		Because if they were doing this correctly, they wouldn't have to look at it.
		And that's also part of the job of Congress, is to make sure that money isn't being wasted and isn't being sent out to the tune of $236 billion or $2.7 trillion.
		And they had four bills, as I said, to try to stop this from happening.
		So someone needs to look at it, and someone needs to explain why it isn't working and make suggestions about how to fix it.
		They're not going to go in and just take it over.
		That's not happening.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So you mentioned that the Grace Commission was private entities looking at government spending, which is effectively also Doge, a private entity moving in to look at government spending.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What benefit do you think there is using the private sector for this as opposed to, say, the inspector generals or any of the other entities already within the federal government to look at spending?
unidentified		Well, the Grace Commission relied on a lot of those recommendations.
		A lot of what Doge is doing is not new.
		For example, the U.S. Digital Service itself, which became the U.S. Doge Service, that had gotten out of control.
		It was not doing what it was intended to do.
		People have talked about getting rid of the Department of Education or essentially moving that money back to the state since Ronald Reagan.
		It's been a recommendation of ours and many others for many years.
		And a lot of the other proposals are simply things that have been out there.
		But the minute that somebody comes in and says we are going to make that same proposal but really do something about it, then everybody gets upset.
		But there's nothing that new about what they're trying to do.
		It's that people who think that it's going to affect their jobs, it's going to affect the outcomes, it's going to affect something that they want simply isn't true.
		If you take it in a broader perspective, the more money that can be saved, the more money that can be spent efficiently and help people that truly need help, which is something that we've asked Congress to figure out for years, but they think spending money is the answer.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You were at that hearing earlier on Wednesday when House Democrats tried and failed to subpoena Musk to testify about Doge seeing a heated exchange play out.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We're going to play that exchange and then I'm going to get your follow-up reaction.
unidentified		Who is this unelected billionaire that he can attempt to dismantle federal agencies, fire people, transfer them, offer them early retirement, and have sweeping changes to agencies without any congressional review, oversight, or concurrence.
		Therefore, Mr. Chairman, given his prominence and his importance, I move that the committee subpoena Elon Musk to come before it as a witness at the earliest possible moment.
		And I so move.
		There's been a motion and second.
		The motion is not debatable.
		Mr. Chairman, why is it not debatable?
		Point of order.
		It is debatable.
		Mr. Chair, I strike the last one.
		Hold on.
		Mr. Chairman.
		I'm going to table the motion.
		Okay.
		Mr. Chairman, why don't we want to debate Elon Musk coming in and talking to us about his work and how he's enriched himself at $364 billion?
		Mr. Chairman.
		The Chair recognizes Dr. Fox.
		Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
		I move to table the motion.
		There's a second motion to table.
		There's a second by Mr. Higgins.
		Point of order.
james comer ▲ ● ▼		The motion is not debatable.
unidentified		As many are in favor of tabling.
		Point of order.
		Point of order, state your point.
		Mr. Chairman, I think it's outrageous that this committee will not even entertain a motion to be able to do it.
		No, Mr. Chairman, that's not a point of order.
		I agree.
		I disagree in our federal agent.
		There's been a lot of people who are driving that order.
		No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
		Out of order.
		And we will not have to take a motion to break order.
		Let's have order in this country.
		You're out of order.
		You know you're out of order.
		You know the rules of this committee.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You were there to see that play out in real time.
		I'd love to get your reaction to that.
		But also, do you think that Musk should appear before Congress to explain how he's going about all of this?
unidentified		Well, the week before the hearing, I had said to myself and my colleagues that they're probably going to go after Elon Musk, but that was quite interesting.
		And that was the first five minutes of the hearing.
		So I thought I'd be there for about two hours.
		Four and a half hours later, they're still going back and forth.
		So I think there was some constructive outcome of this discussion.
		But yes, I think it's up to the President and the executive branch to determine who comes before Congress.
		They haven't even requested that he show up in the first place.
		Usually it starts with a letter, not a subpoena.
		So if they had wanted Elon Musk, they should have worked with the majority and said, let's set a hearing date.
		Let's have people from Doge come in.
		And they started as a confrontation.
		So I think that was not the way to get some cooperation from the administration.
		President Trump has said Elon's happy to talk.
		There are probably a lot of committees that want him to come and talk about what they're doing.
		On the other hand, they've just started, so it might be more beneficial to have that happen at a later date after some work has been done.
		And they're just really still feeling their way through.
		So it is perfectly legitimate for anyone to request a subpoena in a committee, but that's not the way it usually starts.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We'll be taking your calls with questions for Mr. Schatz.
		Our line for Republicans is 202-748-8001.
		For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		And for Independents, 202-748-8002.
		Before we get to some of the callers, I want to bring up more data from the Peter G. Peterson Foundation on government spending, looking specifically at mandatory spending and interest cost growth and how that's squeezing discretionary program as a percentage of federal spending.
		So going back to 1974, total federal spending only made up 18 percent of GDP.
		And if you look here, the discretionary spending was about half of that, and the mandatory spending roughly the other half.
		In 2024, discretionary spending was all the way down to 27 percent, with mandatory spending 60 percent net interest on the national debt, 13 percent.
		Projected that by 2054, not only will our total spending equal 27 percent of our GDP, just 18 percent of that will be discretionary and the rest mandatory spending.
		Most of the federal spending right now is in mandatory programs like Social Security, Medicare, interest on the national debt, while the efforts of Doge are focused on the discretionary programs because President Trump has said he's going to protect Social Security and Medicare.
		How much do you think Doge can really do given this dynamic?
unidentified		Well, if the federal government spends money more efficiently generally, it will help the economy grow.
		And in turn, the revenue coming from a growing economy will help fund Social Security and Medicare.
		Because people, I hope, understand that those programs are paid into by current federal workers, excuse me, current workers across the country.
		And that's the money that goes into those trust funds.
		So it would be helpful if there were fewer improper payments.
		As I mentioned earlier, Medicare, Medicaid, supplemental security income are three of the top six areas of improper payments.
		There's also other areas of fraud and abuse in those programs.
		It should start there.
		And then if other changes are considered, that's perhaps at a later time.
		For example, raising your retirement age has already been done.
		Again, the president isn't talking about that.
		The people are living longer.
		It would make some sense to consider over time increasing the retirement age, which would again ease the burden for both of those programs.
		But that's not what they're saying.
		But it's something that should be considered.
		Otherwise, as the numbers point out, we will be squeezed out of the programs that most people think the government should be engaged with.
		But maybe some of those can be turned over to the states, and maybe we don't need some of those at all.
		But it doesn't solve the entire problem.
		Interest on the debt, by the way, is now bigger than anything except Social Security.
		It's larger than the defense budget.
		So in your family, if interest is your second largest expense, interest on your credit cards and debt, you're in big trouble.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's go to your calls.
		Ue is in Point Pleasant Beach, New Jersey on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning.
unidentified		I'm calling with my partner.
		We wanted to know when should Americans start expecting to see the benefit of these audits in terms of their paycheck and the tax cuts.
		And we also wanted to know, are any of these institutions or NGOs looking at government spending using USAspending.gov?
		And if they are, why would they need to go into agencies and shouldn't this be a very impartial process?
		Well, we wish it was nonpartisan and bipartisan, but after sitting through that hearing and spending 39 years at Citizens Against Government waste, I can tell you that it's not that easy to eliminate wasteful spending in Washington.
		Most times, when waste is discovered or inefficiency is discovered, the answer on Capitol Hill is to simply spend more money to solve the problem.
		So if that is how people who are in charge of these programs think they can be fixed, then that's how you get a lot of the duplication and overlap across agencies.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Robert is in Lions Falls, New York on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Robert.
unidentified		How about that?
		Good morning.
		First time caller.
		So I really just wanted to talk to you about the fact that you quoted the Associated Press as saying they said all this and whatnot, but you never said that they received $8 million from USAP to the Democrats, okay?
		And so it's very easy to see which way you swing.
		All right.
		I wish you'd put more Republicans on also, too, because you really handpicked Democrats and then also Democrats who call them as independents, okay?
		Things like that.
		But it would be nice if you would actually put some Republican stations on, maybe Fox News, maybe Newsmax.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And Robert, did you have a question for Mr. Schatz?
unidentified		I do not.
unidentified		I've been sitting here going, you know, I can't believe every time you fact check somebody that you go to a liberal station or a liberal publication like that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're going to go and get to the people who have some questions for us.
		Let's hear from Michelle in California on our line for independence.
		Go ahead, Michelle.
unidentified		Yes, I was curious to find out if they're going to go into the voucher system, if everyone will get a voucher, not just people with children, because there's a lot of people that are retired, that don't have children, or people who don't have children that pay the school tax.
		And we would like to know if maybe we could get a voucher and we could say to school or to a charter.
		As you know, in California, multifamily dwelling units pay less in property taxes than residential.
		So we have that issue here.
		But I would like a voucher.
		I would like to say if it could go to public or charter.
		And every time I ask a question, I get poo-pooed off.
		And I was wondering if he had any outlook about that.
		Is it only people with children that get the voucher?
		Why is that?
		Thank you.
		You're talking about public education and the school choice issue.
		There are a lot of states that are looking at providing vouchers for families to go to whatever school they wish.
		And it's always only been for K212.
		There have not been, for example, vouchers for college or adult education.
		It's an interesting idea, but of course that would be more costly to taxpayers over time.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We have a question from X. Someone asks, what's your opinion of the firing of the inspector generals?
unidentified		Well, every president has that option.
		Generally, they do notify Congress.
		They have a 30-day notification.
		Some presidents have done that and some have not, but it's entirely up to the discretion of the president to do that.
		They're not permanent employees.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Loretta is in Cleveland, Ohio on our line for Democrats.
		Good morning, Loretta.
unidentified		Oh, good morning.
		Good morning, Mr. Shaq.
		My concern is more with the results of what Elon Musk is doing.
		I'm looking at unemployment.
		I'm looking at homelessness.
		I'm looking at inflation.
		I'm looking at prices and all of this stuff that Trump said.
		Out of all of what he has said, he has never said where the money is going.
		So, I mean, we need a declaration saying that all of the money is going towards paying down the debt, which is what he's leading everybody to believe.
		But I don't think that's the way it's going to go.
		I think that they're getting ready to run a heist on America.
		They're getting ready to set up all the millionaires and billionaires.
		And they're cutting all of the programs that people have paid their taxes into.
		Something about this is illegal.
		I'm sorry.
		Please help me here.
		Thank you.
		Well, they've been there for about three weeks, I think three weeks on Tuesday, so they are not necessarily going to produce results immediately.
		This is a large operation at the federal government level, and it will take some time to get those results.
		And to get to the debt, they have to eliminate the deficit, and that's $2 trillion annually for the next 10 years.
		So they need to turn this around, and I think they're starting out trying to get that done.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sue in Whiting, New Jersey asks, what exactly is an improper payment?
		What is the criteria?
		Is there a list kept of these payments, and how can we access it?
unidentified		Well, the improper payments are overpayments.
		They can also be underpayments.
		They are simply payments that should not be made.
		That's the easiest way to describe them.
		Most of them are overpayments or payments to people who are not eligible to receive the money.
		And that is on the Government Accountability Office website, Office of Management and Budget website.
		And the details and the programs that are covered and examined are on those websites.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and I just looked at the Government Accountability Office website.
		They have a report here from March of last year pointing out that the federal government made $236 billion in improper payments in the last fiscal year.
		And it breaks down where those payments went.
		They were reported by 14 agencies across 71 programs, and 74% of those errors were overpayments, as you just said.
unidentified		And by the way, that's not the whole government, because there are 400 agencies.
		And they initially didn't even count Medicare Part C. That's Medicare Advantage, which is pretty low compared to other parts of Medicare.
		But 236, but it's not everything.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		That's not everything.
		Dan is in Youngstown, Ohio, on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Dan.
unidentified		Okay, so have we ever had a government audit?
		And when the Democrats say, you know, government officials should be doing this, government officials have failed to do this for decades.
		The fact is the Democrats don't want transparency.
		What they want is for people to not be able to see how they're spending our tax money.
		The fact is, the Democrats go around saying we need more money for roads and bridges, but instead they're spending money for sex changes in Guatemala.
		They're spending money for political, politico, and other left-wing media groups.
		Millions of dollars of my taxpayer money are going to left-wing media groups.
		So we need to get a handle on this.
		We need to get a grip.
		We want transparency.
		Have we ever had a government audit?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I don't think we're right.
		I think we get the idea.
		Regarding the sex changes in Guatemala, that is not, it's rated by the Washington Post fact checkers as misleading, the $2 million for sex changes in LGBT activism in Guatemala.
		It suggests that USAID arranged for sex changes.
		The three-year grant to Association Lamda, a Guatemalan LGBTIQ plus organization, was to strengthen trans-led organizations to deliver gender-affirming health care, advocate for improved quality access to services, and provide economic empowerment opportunities.
		About $350,000 of the grant has been delivered.
		Officials could not be reached by the Washington Post, but a former senior U.S. aid official who worked on these programs for the agency said, I regularly went to the Hill and communicated on the record to note that for USAID, gender-affirming care does not include surgeries, hormone replacement therapies, or any other medical interventions.
		So that's just on that specific point because a couple of other folks have mentioned it.
unidentified		But if you wanted to respond to the caller's broader points.
		Well, on audits, Citizens Against Government Waste suggested that the chief financial officers be appointed in agencies, also the Government Performance and Results Act.
		And there have been audits.
		The only place where the audits have not been 100% clean is the Pentagon.
		Only the Marines have had a clean audit.
		Every other agency has had a clean audit.
		Now, all it does is show where the money is going and how much being spent.
		It doesn't change how much is being spent.
		It also doesn't provide, as I mentioned earlier, one place where taxpayers can go to find out exactly what's going on with their money.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There's a new article that came out yesterday in Politico.
		Musk says Treasury Doge is instituting reporting changes to all government payments.
		The payments will include a new categorization code and a rationale for the money spent.
		Elon Musk said on Saturday that the Treasury Department and his Department of Government Efficiency have reached an agreement changing reporting requirements for all outgoing government payments.
		The government payments will now have a payment categorization code for auditing purposes.
		He wrote in a post on X, the social media site he owns.
		Musk also said payments must provide a rationale in a comment field, adding they are not yet applying any judgment to this rationale, but that all payments must have one.
		Musk added that the do not pay list of people or companies that shouldn't receive government money should be updated at least weekly, if not daily.
		Your thoughts on this strategy?
unidentified		Well, that sounds like good government, and it sounds like good management.
		And we have always talked about the management piece of this.
		Not exciting, but that's a perfect example of something that isn't being done.
		I don't know how anyone could argue with that.
		If you don't have the rationale or the statutory authority to spend money, then it shouldn't be spent.
		And I don't know, again, why that doesn't make perfect sense.
		So to address one of the earlier points, he's just going in there and taking the money and he's going to use it for his own purposes.
		This is exactly what needs to be done.
		Because then you can see what's happening.
		The do-not pay list, by the way, was also a problem during COVID, where they didn't use it for a lot of the money that went out, and there were people who were ineligible to receive federal funds that got the money because they just didn't cross-check.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Paul is in New York City on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Paul.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
		So, as you noted, this has been tried several times by different administrations.
		I remember Al Gore.
		There have been many times this has been tried.
		And I wonder whether or not the effort is essentially this effort of objection and lawsuits, which, by the way, are done, it seems, with any controversial government policy, whether it's immigration or education, transportation, telecommunication, whatever it is, it seems that somebody wants to sue and get blocked in court and slow it down so that basically the effort, it seems to me, is obstruct, obstruct, and then maybe there'll be a change in administration,
		and then it just becomes more expedient for politicians simply never to ever follow through on cutting costs.
		So that's my question there.
		The other question I have is I watched part of the hearing.
		I didn't see the part that you guys just showed, but there was a governor, I think, from Kansas, and she said that she was able to do this without any layoffs, that she worked for the legislature, et cetera.
		I don't know if you're familiar with that situation, but it sounds like you might be.
		And I'm wondering, you know, is that just simply because the politics there are more reasonable?
		So that's sort of it.
		And then this finally, you know, here in New York, we've seen programs like education get huge increases in spending, and the outcomes don't change, or they get sometimes worse.
		So if you could comment on that, that'd be great, guys.
		I really appreciate it.
		Thank you.
		Okay, well, going backwards, I grew up without a Department of Education, and I think we were better educated, and it's actually simpler than that.
		Spending has gone up.
		Lots of charts show since the Department of Education in 1977, spending up, test scores flat.
		So if the objective was to increase test scores, that didn't happen.
		They just spent the money and nothing happened.
		The money should go to the classroom, not to the bureaucracy.
		Your question about Governor Reynolds from Iowa, I sat next to her, so I know what she did.
		She had a Doge group before Doge, and they did work with the legislature.
		Governors have a lot more power and control to work with legislatures.
		That's why they are able to get these kinds of things done.
		And in terms of what members of Congress say or don't say in the bureaucracy, yes, it's true.
		A lot of federal agencies figure they can outlast any attempt to reduce their power.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		How important do you think congressional buy-in is for what Doge is doing?
unidentified		Under the Grace Commission, 73% of the recommendations required approval by Congress.
		We don't know exactly what Doge is going to have or not have.
		I know they're focused on the executive branch first to do what they can inside the agencies, which I think makes a lot of sense.
		And then after that, I think I know that their recommendations are due by July of next year, 2026.
		That is where I think they will have more work together with Congress because a lot of those changes you can't eliminate or change or move the money from the Department of Education to the states without agreement by Congress.
		You can make proposals, again, almost 40 years of trying to do that.
		But if you measured by outcome, you wouldn't have the department spending the money the way it's spending it.
		It would go to the states, they would make it more efficient.
		We want our kids to be the best educated, but they're not.
		And that is really in part one of the reasons, and it's the Department of Education not getting results, just spending money.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Dave in Orlando, Florida asks, which is more important, Republican waste or Democratic waste?
unidentified		Everybody wastes money.
		There's no question about it.
		Look, Citizens Against Government Waste tracks earmarks or pork barrel spending every year.
		Some years Republicans spend more, some years Democrats spend more.
		That's not a huge amount of money, about $22 billion on average that we find each year.
		But that in turn encourages or incentivizes members to vote for these large spending bills in return for a few million dollars for projects in their states and districts.
		So we think that has an adverse effect on trying to cut spending.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Mike is in Illinois on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Mike.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I just think that all the waste that's being done, I think we need to trace back all those USAID payments and find out who they come back to, because I think the reason that congressmen are squealing so much is because the kickbacks that are coming back to them or to the groups they support is going to really expose the congressmen.
		And I think that's where we really need to go because I think that's where we're going to get Congress to sit down and shut up and quit wasting our money when people realize that not only is that money going to other countries, but it's coming back into the country for kickbacks for congressmen.
		I don't think there's been any evidence of kickbacks.
		There are certainly organizations that receive money that support ideas that members of Congress support.
		And the programs that have been discussed both in that hearing and elsewhere are simply in some cases ideological.
		In some cases, because the Biden administration said, let's fund these kinds of programs, maybe there's too much discretion allowed in the agencies, and Congress needs to say, in that case, you may only do this with that money, and this is the objective.
		And if you don't do that, you can't spend the money.
		That would be helpful, too.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Irwin is in Duluth, Minnesota, on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Irwin.
unidentified		Hello, my name's Irvin.
		I've been a Democrat for over 20 years.
		There's been a lot of changes going on in the government, especially in front of the leader Donald Trump, I am not super fond of.
		For example, the desire of Donald Trump to speak in Chester, California, on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Rooney.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Rodney, I'm sorry.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Rodney.
unidentified		Rodney, a retired Navy person that has been working in the federal government for over 40 years.
		I see that Dr. Tomblas Gates is a very knowledgeable person as it relates to budget.
		My question is, I look at things from a national defense perspective.
		And so as you look at the oversight and accountability part, how do you measure from that angle level?
		And I know you're not a federal Pentagon type person, and you're looking at processes and improvement processes, but you're not accounting for that element.
		We are.
		In fact, in the Grace Commission, 25% of the savings came from the Department of Defense.
		We will have, I think on Monday, another blog post about software issues with the Joint Strike Fighter about which we have been writing for many, many years.
		A massive program that unfortunately is not working as intended.
		So believe me, we are interested in wasteful spending across every element of the federal government.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We have another question from X from J.D. Redding who asks, can you explain the legal basis for attempting to disband or restructure agencies like USAID without explicit congressional approval, considering these agencies were established by acts of Congress?
unidentified		Well, there is some discretion within some agencies, in others there is not discretion.
unidentified		In fact, Congressman RoConna asked me that question, and my answer was, I think they're testing the limits, but obviously they can't do anything that's not within the constitutional boundaries of what they can do inside of this group inside of the White House.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There was quite a bit of back and forth in that hearing as well as elsewhere just about how much Congress can do as this process is ongoing.
		What role do you think?
		Because as you mentioned, they're very early in this process.
		What role do you think Congress should be playing now in working with the Doge group?
unidentified		Well, if Congress had been doing its job, in our view, they wouldn't need Doge.
		And I don't say that facetiously.
		I say it seriously, because states have to balance their budgets.
		Local governments have to balance their budgets.
		Families have to balance their budgets.
		The federal government has not done it.
		It's not required to do that.
		And so whatever they're doing is drawing more attention to the problem inside of Washington.
		$2 trillion annual deficits, $36 trillion debt.
		I talk about that fairly often, and then, well, that's all you care about.
		Well, of course that's what we care about, because that has an impact on our children and grandchildren.
		It has an impact now, in fact, because it's so large.
		And if we had enough money, we would be able to finance a lot of the programs that people would like to have.
		But again, how much money should be spent to accomplish an objective that Congress wants to achieve, that's the question that should be asked by every member of Congress.
		When they get that answer, they'll know how much we really need to spend.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There's a story in the Washington Post about Elon Musk's Doge feeding sensitive federal data into AI to target cuts.
		Giving the example at the Education Department, the tech billionaires team has turned to artificial intelligence to hunt for potential spending cuts, part of a broader plan to deploy the technology across the federal government.
		What opportunities do you think AI brings to this effort and what potential risks?
unidentified		Well, I talked about this because I've been asked that question many times.
		For example, under the Grace Commission, there wasn't AI and there wasn't social media.
		And both of those really change how this gets done.
		Social media, you get both sides, of course.
		Elon talking about how he's doing things and then people yelling at him and talking about his, unfortunately, talking about his staff and literally doing nasty things to them, which is, again, unfortunate.
		But AI is a tool that can help.
		Like, for example, in medicine, it can find something that physicians may not be able to find right away.
		They can find it faster.
		So if someone says Congress wants to spend money to achieve this objective, as I've mentioned several times, what's the best way to do that?
		How can it be done?
		Where's the waste?
		I'm going to give one quick example.
		Broadband.
		Everybody wants to be connected to the Internet, or at least the people that do want to be connected.
		Many of them have not been connected.
		There are 133 federal broadband programs across 15 agencies.
		And there's a program called BEAD, Broadband Equity Access and Deployment.
		$42 billion in the infrastructure bill passed in 2021.
		Not a penny has been spent of that money because of all the delays and all the regulations that have made it difficult.
		So we want people to be connected.
		You don't need 133 programs across 15 agencies.
		You need a handful.
		administered by a few agencies cooperating with each other to get that done.
		It's fairly simple, but that's not how it's happened.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Jim is in Perkesey, Pennsylvania on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Jim.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Yes, do you have a question for Mr. Schatz?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
		I'd just like to know about Elon Musk.
		He is getting me so nervous with how he's doing his business for us.
		You know, and anybody can do what he's doing, you know, going in and tearing things apart instead of using a scalpel and pulling out the bad parts because everything that the government does for us is for our own good.
		And of course, things, people take advantage of that.
		And I feel that the people are, the people that need it are losing out because of the people that are stealing or what have you.
		And again, I just want to like to know how Elon Musk has the power to do what he can do, although I understand the president gave him that power.
		And of course, voting for President Trump and having for our president, we do, of course, listen to him and sometimes disagree.
		And this is what I'm saying right now, I guess, with all my talking, is I disagree with all the power Elon Musk has, and it's getting me very nervous like many other people.
		I am a retired, disabled man, and I see things going in a different path than what I growing up knowing.
		So in any event, I would like to thank you for listening to me, having me on your show.
		And I've always wanted to say this, and I didn't say it right away.
		First time caller.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for calling in, Jim.
unidentified		Thank you so much for your time.
		I hope this made some sense.
		Well, Philo, thank you for your service.
		Really appreciate it.
		And I know everybody else does as well.
		No one can find out where those problems exist or where the money is being wasted unless they examine everything.
		So by looking at overall payments, it will help to determine how the payments are being made and what might be wasted.
		And again, it was mentioned a little while ago that he went and cooperated and Treasury said, okay, to get more information about every payment, the do not pay list, updated so people aren't getting money who are not eligible.
		Provide the rationale.
		What statute is this associated with?
		So that, again, it's easier to see where that money is going.
		Then they can figure out what should not be paid and make a dent in that $236 billion in improper payments.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Tim is in Charlotte, North Carolina on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Tim.
unidentified		Hey, how are you this morning?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good, thanks.
unidentified		I'd like to ask Mr. I guess Schatz, does he know that in the Declaration of Independence or in the Constitution where it ever said that federal workers should be unionized?
		And I'd also like to know why teachers in New York, California, and certain places through the Department of Education have to really, I mean, it's almost an act of Congress.
		It's like pulling teeth to get them to be fired.
		And why do they have so much power?
		And does he know that since 1977, since the Department of Education was formed, our grades through the different countries has gone significantly down.
		I'm 60 years old.
		I'm a vet.
		Blah, blah, blah.
		My family's been in the military for 100 years.
		Anyway, our educational system has poured all this money into it.
		And yet we have some of the lowest scores in the world compared to other countries.
		So why is all this money being wasted?
		And yet, you know, and it's the Democrats, a lot of it, and it's Republicans too, to a certain extent.
		It's everybody that has their hand in the cookie jar.
		But it's pathetic that this country has all the money and we can't even educate our kids.
		I mean, it's sad.
		I just like to, you know, listen to what he's got to say about that.
		I agree.
		Again, I mentioned I was brought up without a Department of Education.
		You were not quite there, but maybe close.
		Maybe it just started then.
		But the money should go to the states.
		It's not like the 60s where there were really, there were states that were not educating their children.
		Well, now every one of those states is concerned about educating their kids, competing with others for jobs.
		Thank you for your service, by the way.
		And getting rid of the Department of Education, quote unquote, is not eliminating every program.
		It is figuring out which ones are working effectively.
		They can be distributed and if they're working to other agencies or back to the states.
		And so I'll talk about forgiving student loans for a second, which I think was one of the most horrible ideas ever, unfair to everybody who has paid off their loans or never went to school.
		So I think that raised some of the ire against the Department of Education as well.
		And it's both sides.
		They need to agree on what to do with that money, but they need to figure out how to do this effectively.
		And it's not doing it the way they're doing it now.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Tim also asked about the unionization of federal workers.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Any thoughts on that?
unidentified		That's been around for a long time.
		I honestly don't recall when it happened or why it happened.
		It's not illegal, obviously.
		I guess the founders probably didn't think about that.
		That's a good point.
		But it is where it is now.
		Not every agency has unionized workers.
		Teachers' unions are local, not federal.
		And again, I think the idea of putting money into the classroom, giving parents more control over where they'd like to send their children.
		Look, school choice is most popular in areas of the country where the schools are poorly performing.
		A lot of those are in poorer communities, and they want their schools to succeed.
		And I think that's something else that needs to be looked at.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's all the time we have for our segment today.
		Thank you so much, Thomas Schatz, who is the president of Citizens Against Government Waste.
		Really appreciate your time this morning.
unidentified		Thank you, Kimberly.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Glad to be on.
		And later on, we're going to look at the litigation against the Trump administration and the actions around the Trump administration actions and how that litigation is ramping up in 30 minutes.
		We'll have a conversation with Skye Perryman, president and CEO of the advocacy group Democracy Forward, about the legal strategy around that.
		But first, we'll have open forum.
		You can start calling in now on any political or public policy topic on your mind this morning.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Tonight on C-SPAN's Q&A, ex-convict, award-winning poet, and Yale Law School graduate Reginald Dwayne Betts is our guest.
unidentified		He wrote the afterword for a new commemorative edition of Dr. King's Letter from Birmingham Jail and talks about the book and the work done by Freedom Reads, an organization he founded that builds libraries in prisons.
reginald dwayne betts ▲ ● ▼		You know, the judge might have been under no illusion that sending me to prison will help, but he did say I could get something out of it if I tried.
		And I think that this is a testament, not just that I got something out of it, but that I came home to a world where it might feel overwhelming.
		It might feel like it is absolutely hard to make a way when you have hurt somebody in the past.
		But I also came to a world that has radically changed and shifted and created more and more opportunities for people to reflect on the ways in which they've changed and to be welcomed back into what I like to think of as King Say the Beloved Community.
unidentified		Reginald Duane Betts tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN's Q ⁇ A. You can listen to Q&A and all of our podcasts on our free C-SPAN Now app.
		This week on the C-SPAN Networks, the House and Senate are in session.
		The House will consider legislation establishing new penalties for evading U.S. Border Patrol agents in car chases.
		The Senate continues voting on President Trump's cabinet nominees, including Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as Health and Human Services Secretary.
		The chair of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, will give the semi-annual monetary policy report before two committees, first on Tuesday before the Senate Banking Committee, and then on Wednesday before the House Financial Services Committee.
		Also, C-SPAN continues our comprehensive coverage of confirmation hearings for President-elect Trump's cabinet nominees.
		The Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee will hold hearings for two cabinet nominees.
		On Wednesday, former Oregon Republican Congresswoman Lori Chavez-DeReamer, the nominee for Secretary of Labor.
		And on Thursday, for former businesswoman Linda McMahon, who's a nominee for a Secretary of Education.
		Also on Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee will vote on the nomination of Kash Patel for Director of the FBI.
		Watch live on the C-SPAN networks or on C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app.
		Also, head over to c-span.org for scheduling information or to watch live or on demand anytime.
		C-SPAN, democracy unfiltered.
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		This is C-SPAN, giving you your democracy unfiltered.
		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		We're in open forum, ready to hear your thoughts on the public policy.
		News that's on your mind this morning.
		Our line for Republicans, 202-748-8001.
		For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
		And for Independents, 202-748-8002.
		We've been talking also this morning about the Elon Musk and his Doge team, as well as the backlash to some of the actions they've taken so far.
		Last week, Democratic lawmakers joined several advocacy groups at rallies to protest what Doge has been up to so far, including threats to federal workers.
		This is Democratic Senator Corey Booker addressing the crowd on Wednesday.
unidentified		We are joining the leadership!
		We are joining the leadership already stated by Brian Schatz of Hawaii that we will cooperate with no appointments when it comes to the State Department.
		No appointments when it comes to foreign policy.
		The first thing we're going to do in the Senate is not cooperate with the illegal and unconstitutional acts that they are trying to do.
		The second thing we are going to do, and we met this morning, it is in the legal perspective.
		The second thing we are going to do is we are going to fight this legally in every way we can.
		We will fight their violation of civil service laws.
		We will fight their violation of civil rights laws.
		We will fight their violations of separation of powers.
		We will fight their violations of our Constitution of the United States of America.
		We will not shut up.
		We will stand up.
		We will speak up.
		We will rise up.
		It is time, as the African spiritual says, for us to lift every voice in condemnation of what's going on.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's go to your calls in open forum, starting with Mark and Spruce Head Main on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Mark.
unidentified		Yes, this is Mark.
		I was wondering about the Emergency Procedural Act that President Trump has invoked, along with the Patriot Act, and then also the zero-based budgeting by Jimmy Carter that was done in the 70s, that they seem to be trying to do now, but in a massive way.
		And if any of our callers are even aware of the Emergency Procedural Act and the zero-based budgeting that Jimmy Carter, President Jimmy Carter, tried to invoke in the 70s after we took over from Nixon after Laudergate, the way President Carter tried to do it was agency by agency.
		And it appears that what Musk is doing is trying to do a sweeping one and making them justify every cent starting from zero, which, by the way, Jimmy Carter's proposal to do that was actually rejected after it caused all kinds of confusion and agencies short on funds to complete their assigned duties.
		So that's all I got to say.
		So people ought to really think about the Emergency Procedure Act, the Patriot Act, and zero-based budgeting.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Frank is in Aberdeen, Maryland on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Frank.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		I just want to remind America how we got into this deficit mess to begin with.
		In 1979, 1980, Ronald Reagan's expressed purpose for his proposed tax cuts was to starve the beast, to force Congress to come to terms with all of the entitlement spending, including Social Security and Medicare, and get it all under control, meaning eliminated.
		And what happened immediately was our deficit went up 2.75 times in eight years because of Ronald Reagan's tax cuts.
		And now we have doubled down on it twice.
		Right after that Reagan did his first tax cut, I did a paper.
		I was at the University of Baltimore, and I projected that by 2035 to 2040, we would hit $20 trillion in debt.
		Happened a little bit early.
		We are suffering from our own illusion that tax cuts pay for themselves, which was a lie, and the second lie that this was not class warfare because it was.
		Because since 1980, the middle class has shrunk and wealth has accumulated into fewer and fewer hands.
		So we need to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that we need to tax what we are going to spend.
		It's as simple as that.
		Thank you, ma'am.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Virginia is in Wisconsin on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Virginia.
unidentified		I want to talk about Elon Musk being subpoenaed to hearings in Congress.
		I have been watching those hearings lately, and it is terrible.
		You don't get any information from the witnesses that are called, which is why I watch, because they bring in experts and you think you're going to get educated, but all that happens is these Congress people scream and yell and make speeches and say, answer me, yes or no.
		I don't have much time.
		Don't talk.
		You know, the witnesses, they never get a chance to say anything.
		It's like performance art for Congress people.
		Now, all the people that have been calling in this morning, they have a lot of questions.
		And I would like to see Trump and Musk answer those questions, but in a forum where you actually get to hear their answers.
		And I know Musk and Trump did a thing on X before Trump was elected where they talked about what they were going to do for a couple of hours.
		I would like to see that happen again with Musk talking about what he did at USAID, what he plans to do at the Treasury Department, and things like that, so the people who called in today could be informed with the facts,
		but it's not going to happen at a hearing in front of Congress.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Next up is Rick in Rossman, North Carolina on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Rick.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		You know, all the people that call in from time to time talking about the possibility of losing their Social Security, I don't know if they seem to realize some of the things that we've heard over the past week about people 150-year-old still drawing Social Security or illegal aliens drawing Social Security or Medicaid.
		I don't know if those things are being looked at.
		Certainly they need to be.
		I don't oppose Leon Musk at all for doing what he's doing.
		He's rich.
		I don't think he can be bought off.
		I don't know if anybody else could do that job without being balled off by either politicians or what have you.
		But anyway, that's my comment for this morning.
		I would like people to do a little more research and not rely on certain news agencies to get all their information and talking points.
		Thank you very much.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Next up is John in Grand Rapids, Michigan on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Morning, Kimberly.
unidentified		How are you?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Fine, thank you.
unidentified		I've got two questions.
		Number one, I was hoping that you could shine some light on the changes that have been made to immigration that's going to allow Afrikaners, aka apartheid people, into this country.
		I also would like to know why it is that our personal information has to be accessed in order to reduce government waste.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wasn't able to quickly look up that article about South Africans, but I will see if I can do that shortly.
		But in the meantime, let's hear from Sharon in Oklahoma on our line for independence.
		Good morning, Sharon.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I just wanted to say this is my second time to call in.
		I can't believe that the Republicans are being so complacent about all this.
		I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
		I'm going to call Social Security in the morning and have my Social Security check put on a debit card, and then I'm going to go to the bank and close that account so that my information doesn't hit him floating around out there.
		And I am going to encourage everybody that I know that is on Social Security to do the same.
		I also watched that thing last night that was on the committee meeting on waste.
		And I'd like to say that I was sickened by the comments from the lady from North Carolina, I think it was North Carolina, where she absolutely absolutely was up there saying, Tranny, Tranny, Tranny.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about Nancy Mace.
unidentified		Yes, I am.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		The Senate South Carolina.
unidentified		I think she needs to go under the table.
		Anyway, that's just my comments on the whole thing.
		I encourage all senior citizens to protect their bank accounts.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sabrina is in Los Angeles on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Sabrina.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I just would like to make a few points.
		My issue, everybody knows that our governmental processes need to be corrected.
		You can't please everyone, but it's going to be corrected.
		It's just that the way that the Republican Trump and his party is doing it is very inhumane.
		In addition to the fact that I'm having an issue with Elon Musk, who is a South African, first of all, and has no right to political processing for what I'm understanding.
		I'm trying to figure out how is it that he is able to get into personal information.
		As the woman was just stating a minute ago, I take care of my dad, and if I have to put him on the phone when I call the doctors to set up appointments and stuff for him, if I have to put him on the phone to get off the Authentication for him, for me to be able to speak on his behalf.
		How is it that this man can get into all of our personal information and we didn't vote him in?
		So I'm trying to figure out how is it that he is in place without any confirmation, any he has not been before any boards, the Senate, the Congress.
		He has not been before anyone.
		And the people did not vote for Elon Musk, Republican and/or Democrats.
		It doesn't matter.
		I'm trying to find out how is it right for him to be where he is and involved in people's information the way he is.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		A few callers have mentioned a Trump executive order related to South Africa, and I was able to find an article on that.
		This one from CBS News on February 8th.
		Trump orders U.S. to prioritize refugee resettlement of South Africans of European descent.
		President Trump on Friday directed government officials to prioritize the resettlement of South Africans of European descent through the U.S. refugee program, which he suspended during his first day in office.
		In an executive order, Trump accused the South African government of discriminating against Afrikaners, an ethnic group in South Africa made up of descendants of European colonists, mostly from the Netherlands, who first arrived there in the 1600s.
		Until the 1990s, white South Africans of European descent ruled South Africa, enforcing the brutal system of apartheid against the country's black majority.
		Peter is in Texas on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Peter.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
		I work for the federal government, and in 2014, when the Communist Chinese Party hacked OPM, no one seems to be as outraged as they are today.
		So I look at a person like Elon Musk to say that he's going to save us money by looking into the government and trying to see about all this waste that's going on.
		That's a good thing, but the media never seems to shed a little light on that in 2014 when other countries was hacking into our government system.
		And for Elon Musk to do this, I think it's a good thing.
		And let him continue to do those things because it just seems right, you know, for him to do that than a communist party like China when they did those things.
		And nobody seems to be as outraged.
		The media didn't even expose that as much as they're doing it now.
		And I got friends now that I talk to about it, and they're saying the same thing.
		Oh, he's going to get our information.
		But they seem to forget that in 2014 when I was hacked and all my information was out there.
		So I tell everybody, I said, I would rather Elon Musk to hack us than the Communist Chinese Party.
		Nobody wants to be hacked.
		Don't get me wrong.
		I'm just saying he seems to be genuine in his efforts.
		So let's allow this process to go through.
		And if it's found out that he's doing something wrong, then we need to get rid of it and take care of it.
		But for right now, let's see how this turns out.
		Let's see how this plays out.
		So I just thank you for taking my call.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Sue is in Chelsea, Michigan on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Sue.
unidentified		Hi.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		I have a feeling that as far as people saying, you know, Republic or Democrat or Independent or all this, we're all people.
		We are paying in the taxes, the government.
		And if the government has nothing to hide, what do they care to be investigated?
		And we need to know, as a citizen, where the money's going.
		And another thing, the schools, most of your kids can't read, write, add.
		I mean, they got the computers and they got this.
		If they learn the basics, it's easy to do the computer and all the other stuff on there.
		So I just feel that there's too much power into saying, you know, what ethic they are or what them or what if they're Democrat, Republic, or whatever.
		We're all people.
		We all should work together and try to make the best world for everyone.
		Okay.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Cedric is in Louisiana on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Cedric.
unidentified		Hi, good morning.
		I'm very concerned about the power that Elon Musk have in this country.
		Donald Trump is letting him go too far.
		Anytime a man can give a Nazi salute in America, don't stand up to say anything to criticize him for this.
		And another thing, we, as people of this country, we always had confidence in the FBI and the CIA.
		Those people, they protect the American interests in this country.
		And if we let this country, Donald Trump and his group, destroy the FBI and destroy the CIA, we are going to be in a lot of trouble in this society.
		And every person should take a stand.
		And as far as another thing, you were talking about the schools in this country.
		The schools in this country, the Democrats have been trying to make vouchers, public vouchers for certain groups for the last 30 years.
		And they want to destroy the public schools in this country.
		We have to take a stand.
		And the Democrats put us in this position.
		And we shouldn't be in this position that we're in today.
		And America is at the weakest point right now.
		So that's all I have to say.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Cedric was calling in from Louisiana, where the Super Bowl will be happening later today in New Orleans.
		Two op-eds in USA today about President Trump attending the Super Bowl.
		This one saying President Trump is going to the Super Bowl.
		That's a good thing.
		More presidents should.
		Trump at the Super Bowl, this is great.
		Regardless of what critics say, I'm surprised more presidents haven't done this.
		This is by Nicole Russell, who says President Donald Trump is attending the Super Bowl in New Orleans on Sunday, the first sitting president to do so.
		I'll admit I don't care much about football, even if I live in Texas, but this is a good thing.
		Actually, this is great, regardless of what critics say.
		I'm surprised more presidents haven't done this.
		I love scrolling down a little bit more to the larger point.
		I'd expect Trump to be at the Super Bowl because that's where America's eyes will be this Sunday, and he's our president, like it or not.
		Trump loves to be at the center of the action, and everyone will be crooning as Taylor Swift watches her boyfriend, Kansas City Chiefs tight end Travis Kelsey play against the Philadelphia Eagles.
		Trump probably sees this as an opportunity to bolster his image among Republicans.
		Hate all you want.
		My youngest child says the Super Bowl is rigged, thanks to Swift, but she's been a boon for football in the NFL.
		During last year's Super Bowl, the NFL saw record viewerships, 123.7 million views to be exact, as Americans watched Swift watch her man win another Super Bowl ring.
		What do you think a Trump visit will do to those ratings and conversations around the world?
		Then another USA Today op-ed, the opposite view, this one by Mike Freeman, who says Donald Trump is going to the Super Bowl and ruining one of America's best days.
		Him saying we put aside the Super Bowl, where families gather to watch the big game, eat lots of food, drink some, party a little, get together with friends to laugh, chill, hang out.
		It's one of the few moments, the extremely few few moments, where Americans genuinely come together.
		We put aside politics, we put aside our differences, we take part in a great American tradition.
		It's actually pretty cool.
		Well, it was because now President Donald Trump is attending the game.
		The fact that Trump will be at the same game as thoughtful as Eagles quarterback Jalen Hurts is playing in is a remarkable contradiction.
		This week, Hurts spoke about the evolution of the black quarterback and how he doesn't take this moment lightly, where two black quarterbacks are again playing in the Super Bowl.
		It's the kind of thoughtfulness we've come to expect from him, the kind of depth Trump doesn't possess.
		Two opposing views on Trump's appearance at today's Super Bowl.
		Now, let's go to Jonathan in Columbus, Ohio on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Jonathan.
unidentified		Yes, my name is Jonathan.
		I'm a Republican.
		I want we Republicans to think what this guy is doing, Musk is doing down the road.
		Trump will be long gone and will hurt us.
		We should remember that.
		Donald Trump will be gone down the road, but what Leon Musk is doing is going to hurt us one day.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Lisa is in Rhode Island on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Lisa.
unidentified		Well, good morning.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		I have three very simple points.
		I've listened to so many people on this topic, and I think the first point that I would make is Elon's power.
		I think the information that is out there and that people are kind of grabbing on is really disingenuous.
		His power is so limited given our infrastructure.
		Everywhere in government is siloed.
		Your information is literally everywhere.
		So I don't buy that argument that he has all of this power and he's going to use your power, your information against you.
		Our government already has it.
		Everybody.
		You know, the receptionists at your health care facility that is minimum wage has all of your information.
		And that's on paper.
		That's being thrown in dumpsters.
		We're being hacked left and right.
		Everyone has your information.
		That's not to say it's not a valid concern.
		But I don't really think that the Department of Treasury, who is working with Doge, is giving them this much information where they're going to shut down systems to the extent that this is a catastrophe.
		The other point I would make, point number two, is our infrastructure is circa 1970 at best.
		You've got five of genius brains willing to work for nothing to help us to get into the 21st century.
		I don't understand how people are freaking out over an audit that happens in the private sector every single day to improve efficiencies, to improve innovation, and I just, the outrage is, I literally, I can't even wrap my head around it.
		My third point is that you're talking about someone looking at the books.
		How many, I would ask the public, how many times have we gotten all of those bills annoyed that we've gotten paid?
		And now we have these big stack of bills on our counter.
		We're going through the, you know, the electric bill.
		It's 1,000.
		We look at our Comcast bill or our utility bills and they're through the roof.
		What do we do?
		We audit those bills and what do we find?
		Mistakes.
		You charged me for this movie I didn't buy.
		You charged me for this on my credit card.
		That's not right.
		This is not right.
		How is it that we can do that, but we can't ask our congressmen, our senators to open the books as an American taxpayer to see where the money is going.
		Right or wrong, whatever the USAID did, I'm sure they've done a ton of great things.
		But I feel like all of those people screaming, Elon and Doge has all this power.
		They're screaming at the top of their lungs.
		They're looking at our information.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So Lisa, I'm going to have no idea.
unidentified		Why?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We're about out of time.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to finish up your point?
unidentified		The waste.
		And that's my point.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Lisa, and thank you to everybody who called in for Open Forum.
		Up next, we're going to have a conversation with Sky Perryman, who is the president and CEO of the advocacy group Democracy Forward.
		She'll be talking about the legal strategy to counter the Trump administration's actions.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Weekend Spring U Book TV featuring leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books.
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		Angela Merkel, who served as German Chancellor from 2005 to 2021, discusses her memoir, Freedom, with former President Barack Obama.
		Former Georgetown law professor Ilya Shapiro argues that there is a decline of intellectual diversity, academic freedom, and civil discourse at elite law schools, creating a climate of intolerance.
		He's the author of the book, Lawless.
		And then on Afterwards, Omo Moses, son of civil rights organizer Robert Moses and author of the book The White Peril, talks about being black in America through the voices of three generations of the Moses family.
		He's interviewed by University of Maryland Baltimore County Emeritus President Freeman Rabowski.
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		He wrote the afterword for a new commemorative edition of Dr. King's Letter from Birmingham Jail and talks about the book and the work done by Freedom Reads, an organization he founded that builds libraries in prisons.
reginald dwayne betts ▲ ● ▼		You know, the judge might have been under no illusion that sending me to prison will help, but he did say I could get something out of it if I tried.
		And I think that this is a testament, not just that I got something out of it, but that I came home to a world where it might feel overwhelming.
		It might feel like it is absolutely hard to make a way when you have hurt somebody in the past.
		But I also came to a world that has radically changed and shifted and created more and more opportunities for people to reflect on the ways in which they've changed and to be welcomed back into what I like to think of as King Say, the beloved community.
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		Washington Journal continues.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back.
		We're joined now by Sky Perryman, who's president and CEO of Democracy Forward, here to chat with us about legal efforts to challenge the Trump administration's agenda.
		Welcome to Washington Journal.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for having me.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Can you talk a little bit about Democracy Forward, what your group does, when you were founded, and how you're funded?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Well, Democracy Forward is a legal organization that believes that the promise of democracy is open to everyone, but that the courts have a really important frontline role to play in protecting people's rights and in protecting communities across the country.
		And so our organization was founded actually in the wake of the 2016 election in early 2017 when we started seeing the Trump-Pence administration at the time take a number of actions that were deeply harmful to people and communities.
		There were obviously things like the Muslim ban, which had captured headline attention, and that there were many legal challenges to stop or just attempt to stop that destructive policy.
		But under the radar, in ways that the media was not necessarily covering, the administration was doing a range of things at federal agencies that were really undermining people and communities and in some instances our democracy as a whole, like when they set up the Pence-Kobach Voter Suppression Commission that sought to collect data on individual voters across the country.
		So our organization was founded to add legal capacity to ensure that people's rights were protected at the federal level.
		After January 6th, 2021, we began expanding our efforts to counter far-right extremism in state and local communities.
		And then now with the federal landscape changing and with the way that we're seeing the Trump administration operating, seeking to accelerate Project 2025 and other harmful policies for people and communities across the country, we are also focused and now, you know, very much focused on ensuring that people's rights are protected through our legal actions.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And how are you funded?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		We are funded by individuals and communities across the country.
		There is a way that you can go donate on our website at democracyforward.org.
		And then we also are grateful for philanthropic support.
		So that's going to be grants from foundations and communities as well.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What is your overall legal strategy when it comes to reacting to the Trump administration's actions?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And how do you choose which cases you're going to pursue?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Well, we know the Trump administration's playbook.
		There have been a few surprises, which we'll talk about, including his installation of Elon Musk and Doge across the federal government seeking to really undermine the way our government functions for people.
		But we know the playbook.
		And we saw it in the first administration.
		We saw it in Project 2025.
		And so our strategy is to counter that playbook.
		We want to make sure that if this administration does things that harm people and communities and that and those things are unlawful, that there are swift legal challenges brought.
		And so you saw us, you know, you saw us immediately be able to get into court when the administration froze essential services across the country with its spending and funding freeze in the matter of hours getting there to get a court order to ensure that people's services were not disrupted.
		And so it's very, it's sort of meeting the quote shock and awe approach of this administration with swift legal challenges that really ensure that people and communities have their rights protected.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You mentioned Elon Musk and Doge.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think, what are the legal concerns that you have about this arrangement and the actions that the Doge Commission or agency or group has taken so far?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a host of legal concerns and then there are a host of human concerns and I have concerns about both of them.
		Because you ask about the legal concerns, I'll start by saying that, you know, Doge has been operating in a non-transparent manner.
		We have a lawsuit filed to try to force transparency requirements that federal law requires.
		The American public gets to know about their government and who is influencing and advising the president.
		And we believe that they have violated a range of those, what we would call more transparency and accountability protections.
		But even beyond that now, this institution or these sort of actors, Elon Musk and others, are violating things like the Privacy Act that protects the privacy of individuals across the country that prohibits the government from invading that privacy of that personal information.
		They are operating in a way that violates our federal protections against arbitrary and capricious governments seeking to go in and even brag about how they're going in to wreck shop across the federal government.
		And so we have a host of concerns.
		We are happy that the courts are beginning to check this behavior and especially with the court order that the attorneys general were able to were able to secure yesterday with respect to Treasury data.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		You had a meeting with Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer recently and he posted on X about the legal work that you all are doing to quote unquote protect the American people.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		What was the nature of this meeting and will you be working directly with Democrats on your legal challenges moving forward?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		You know, we're a nonpartisan organization and we invite anyone in this country, whether you're conservative, liberal, independent, whether you vote Democrat, whether you vote Republican, whether you, we hope you vote, but whether you don't vote, we invite everyone into our work because this is really a moment that is not about one political party.
		It is not about one political perspective.
		It is about the country.
		It is about our people and our communities across the country and it is about the future that this nation will have.
		And so we make ourselves available to brief lawmakers when we are asked on the legal challenges, the concerns that we're seeing, what we're hearing from people in communities.
		And we will continue to do that at both the federal and the state level.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Recently, President Trump gave his assessment of Elon Musk's actions and also accountability for them.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Let's listen to a bit of that and then I'll get your response.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Great.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		And they're finding tremendous waste, really waste more than anything else, I think you could say.
		Probably fraud and abuse could be added to it.
		The Board standard, waste, fraud, and abuse.
		But they're finding tremendous amounts of really bad things, bad spending.
		You've been reading about, you've been writing about some of it, frankly, and some of the things that they've been doing is just terrible.
		Elon can't do and won't do anything without our approval.
		And we'll give him the approval where appropriate.
		Where not appropriate, we won't.
		But he reports in, and he it's something that he feels very strongly about.
		And I'm impressed because he's running obviously a big company.
		It has nothing to do.
		If there's a conflict, then we won't let him get near it.
		But he does have a good natural instinct.
		He's got a team of very talented people who are trying to shrink government, and he can probably shrink it as well as anybody else.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Your response.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I mean, there's nothing about efficiency happening right now.
		Going into agencies and taking individual personal information about the American people, your personal financial information, health care information, wage and hour information, that is not a fast track to government efficiency.
		Dismantling services across the country in, by the way, red communities and blue communities, big cities and rural areas.
		That is not efficiency.
		This is really an effort that we're seeing, an unprecedented effort in this country to have unelected and unaccountable billionaire and individuals seeking to really infiltrate the United States government and to do things that are harmful to all of us, regardless of what your political persuasion is.
		And I'll just say that efficiency in government is incredibly important, and we need our government to do better.
		But what we know and what data shows is that the quickest way, the fast track to a less efficient government, a more corrupt government, one that does not run on time or work for the people, is a government like what you're seeing now, where loyalty is the calling card of the day, where civil servants are being attacked, those that, you know, people who have served and engage in public service for this country under Democratic administrations,
		under Republican administrations, they're being attacked, and where there is an effort to install loyalists within our federal government as opposed to those that work for the people.
		And so this is really a smokescreen for what appears to be a very corrosive and harmful private agenda and is not any way that we are going to accomplish a greater and more effective government that works for the people in this country.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		There have been a variety of, well, just many actions taken by the Trump administration so far that have resulted in legal challenges and some that have been successful, some that are still in progress.
		I just want to talk about one of them.
		The administration had argued for a temporary pause in funding while it examines spending practices.
		This was a statement from the former acting director of the Office of Management and Budget, Matthew Vaith.
		I should say that we have now a current acting OMB director, Russ Vaught, who was confirmed on Thursday night.
		But back in January, what the OMB was saying was in the interim, to the extent permissible under applicable law, federal agencies must temporarily pause all activities related to obligation or disbursement of all federal financial assistance and other relevant agency activities that may be implicated by the executive orders.
		This temporary pause will provide the administration time to review agency programs and determine the best uses of the funding for those programs consistent with the law and the president's priorities.
		This created a lot of backlash.
		What is your take on the legality of this approach?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's unlawful, and we were able to get a court to pause this within, I believe, 24 hours of the memo coming out.
		It was a callous disregard for the American people.
		This approach did not do anything to enhance efficiency or to create review times or contemplation about our federal spending or our federal government.
		What it did was that it shut off things like Head Start, Meals on Wheels, services that rural areas rely on, services that urban areas rely on, that blue states rely on, that red states rely on, and it was a national crisis.
		And so, we were pleased to go into court with our clients, the National Council of Nonprofits, which, by the way, has a membership that is highly diverse, right?
		Nonprofits, some of them, some of them do things you might agree with, some of them do things you might not agree with.
		But this was the National Council of Nonprofits, the American Public Health Association that was seeing in real time the harms to healthcare.
		There were reports about Medicaid portals being closed off the Main Street Alliance, which was small businesses across the country, and then an advocacy, a civil rights advocacy organization.
		And so, the federal court abrupt, you know, the federal court was able to pause the administration's arbitrary activities.
		It then extended that pause last week, and there will be more briefing.
		But this is an example of arbitrary behavior by this administration that is deeply, it's not only troubling from a legal perspective, it's troubling from a human perspective because this isn't serving anyone.
		And you saw the White House come out scrambling after the court ruled members of Congress were having to mobilize because their communities were not getting what they needed.
		And so, I think that this was the courts have, of course, provided a really important check.
		But I think if this is sort of a preview of how this administration is going to operate, what we're seeing is that they're not really operating in a way that is making people's lives better in the day-to-day, but rather operating in sort of a chaotic way that's really causing a lot of uncertainty, but also harm to people who, by the way, some are still not getting the funding because of backlogs, because you can't just turn, you know, turn on and off switches like the government sought to do.
		So, I think this was a real troubling, a real troubling activity that the government, that the Trump administration relied on, and was pleased that we were able to help communities across the country get relief in court.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And I should also mention that the Trump administration later rescinded that memo, but the issue, as you mentioned, some of the issues are still ongoing.
		Let's now go to our callers if you have a question for our guest, Guy Perryman.
		Republicans, 202-748-8001, Democrats at 202-748-8000, and Independents at 202-748-8002.
		Let's start with Martin in Long Island on our line for Republicans.
		Good morning, Martin.
unidentified		Good morning, folks.
		Question legally: Could our president take the 80,000 IRS agents and audit our federal government?
		There's a lot of entitlement programs that have rules and regulations, such as also with Social Security, people who are dead, and people who are not abiding by the rules for getting money.
		Is there any way that our president could use those agents to help us review all the programs?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I think the concern is what we're seeing that the president right now is saying he wants to do, and what the administration wants to do is they actually want to undermine and purge civil servants across the government, people who don't work for any particular political ideology or any particular, you know, any particular party, but those that swear an oath to the Constitution.
		And so we're really concerned about what we're seeing with how the president is seeking to purge the civil service.
		We have a range of resources available at civilservicestrong.org for civil servants or for those that are concerned about this.
		And I do think that there is important work for everyone in federal government service, the president, Congress, others, to evaluate the way our government is operating.
		But we're not seeing that type of evaluation happening.
		We're seeing a quote-unquote shock and awe approach against the American people and against essential services that are really important, as well as an effort to seek to really hollow out and undermine civil servants that work across the country in positions from the IRS, but also in positions in many other agencies.
		And so that's really what we've been focused on at Democracy Forward.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		We have a question that we received via text message, Ms. Perryman.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Does Democracy Forward plan on challenging the Trump administration for halting sexual assault training in the military due to Trump's executive order when he threw out DEI?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Well, we already have filed a suit challenging two executive orders that seek to target diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, but really in our lawsuit also seek to target people for using and expressing their First Amendment rights.
		And that case is pending in federal court in Baltimore right now on behalf of, you know, on behalf of a really diverse coalition, the American Association of University Professors, the National Association of Professionals in Higher Education, Restaurant Workers in America, and the city of Baltimore.
		So we already have that court challenge moving.
		And the promise that I will make to those that are asking, will we challenge?
		What is the challenge going to be?
		The promise that I will make to you is that if this administration and when this administration takes actions that are undermining the rights of people in this country, we will do everything in our power to ensure that there are swift legal responses in court.
		And we are building support with communities across the country in order to be able to do that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Donald is in South Bend, Indiana on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Donald.
unidentified		Hi.
		Look, I have no problem with, you know, government finding agencies that probably outuse their uselessness and everything.
		I have no problem with that.
		That's what I think they should do.
		But I think Congress should do this.
		I don't think someone like Elon Musk, who has contracts with the government, should be messing around with my personal data in Treasury.
		That's what scares me.
		And just one more thing.
		I know this may sound kind of kooky, but this is what I'm scared about, Elon Musk.
		He's doing something to, when, okay, when Trump's term ends, quote unquote, he's doing something to hold the country hostage so Trump could get a third term or something like that.
		So I just don't trust Elon Musk.
		So, hey, Congress, you are advocating your role to this man.
		Get some backbone and get him out and do your job.
		Thank you.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Ms. Perryman, any response?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I think Americans across the country are concerned about Elon Musk and they're concerned about their privacy and they're concerned about their communities.
		And so we are in court every single day challenging what is an unlawful and harmful regime to install an unelected person and to have them go through and take information that is the American people's.
		We have a number of lawsuits pending against this very thing.
		And we, the lawyers, are working night and day in order to ensure that this very corrupt regime be held accountable.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		James is in Collins, Mississippi on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, James.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
		Good morning, you guys.
		How you doing?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good, thanks.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
		I got a problem with it with the Musk and President Trump because I remember when they was talking about the rich person with the Democratic Party.
		Zaros was a billionaire.
		And every day they talked about how he was connected with the Democratic Party, where he was fan for the Democratic Party.
		And now Eli Musk gave up $200 and something million dollars to have voters to vote for President Trump.
		Then you got these other two or three other billionaires joined his team.
		Then you got the Supreme Court judges, whom they're now going to investigate, did what they did.
		Then, but like I said, I believe that he won.
		I believe that he won, but he only won to me because of the women's vote.
		Can you speak a little bit more about the power of the women vote and why do you think that women supported President Trump?
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So, James, I should say that Sky is joining us to chat about the legal challenges.
		But if you'd like to talk about women voters, you certainly can.
		But James also mentioned the Supreme Court.
		So, Ms. Perryman, I'm hoping you can also talk about the role of the Supreme Court in all of this.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I think that, you know, we know the courts are a frontline right now.
		They are the place that people in communities have to resort to.
		Unfortunately, it's really sad that we have a situation in the country right now where we have a president that said he was not going to implement Project 2025.
		He said that, by the way, to voters across the country, including those women voters that the caller just referenced, and within days has accelerated this deeply problematic project.
		And what we know is that conservatives, liberals, and independents all disapprove of Project 2025, which is why he ran from it on the campaign trail.
		He's now installed its key architects within the federal government and is seeking to undermine people.
		Many of those policies are unlawful.
		They're being challenged in the courts right now.
		And eventually some of those challenges will likely go to the Supreme Court.
		But this is a Supreme Court that has had to reject the president's extremism before when he was seeking to overturn an election and on a range of other things.
		And so what we will do every day is we will continue to advocate for people in communities and our Constitution in courts, in whatever courts we need to, including at the Supreme Court.
unidentified		We have another question or comment via text message.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		It's interesting listening to Ms. Perryman.
		While she has much to say about her belief of nefarious motives of President Trump and Elon Musk, she has not yet discussed the waste and fraud that had already been uncovered.
		Additionally, she talks about Musk and his team as unelected, yet virtually all department positions within the government are appointed and not elected.
		Federal is different than state and local governments.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I'll just say there's obviously a lot of folks throughout the federal government that are unelected.
		What we've not had in this country is a president that has installed someone like Elon Musk, who has had no congressional oversight, no appointment from the United States Senate.
		Is a role for we the people and who run our government.
		And this is an administration that is uninterested, that is seeking to shut out communities across the country from their government that we're seeing, and that is seeking to essentially bully federal employees who, by the way, you want to talk about unelected, federal employees who work and live in all 50 states and the District of Columbia across the country, who do not work for any particular political party or ideology, but who swear an oath to our Constitution.
		And by the way, polling shows that over 90% of Americans want their government to work and to be where people that are in the government are promoted based on merit, not based on political loyalty.
		And what you've seen in the first 20 days of this administration is an acceleration of a corrupt and system that is seeking to only place people who are loyal to a particular person or ideology within the federal government and who are not loyal to the American people.
		So no, I don't think that the American people expected that Elon Musk would be holding their personal information, would be seeking to export terabytes of data on individual Americans for his own purposes.
		I don't believe that that is the way that we accomplish efficient government in this country.
		And what we know is that the vast majority of Americans agree with that.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Cindy in Florida asks if your organization is non-propartisan why she is preaching the Democrats rhetoric.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Are there any lawsuits against non-Republicans?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		You know, our organization is an equal opportunity employer in terms of we want to make sure that people and communities are protected across the country.
		We had litigation that was pending against the prior administration.
		We have litigation pending against this administration.
		We're going to have more litigation pending against this administration because they operate in a way that is deeply undermining of the American people, of our rights, and of our Constitution.
		But we are really motivated here by what we, the people in this country, need, the rights that we, the people in this country, have, and seeking to hold government accountable in the courts.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		John is in Kirbyville, Missouri on our line for Republicans.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Congrats Perryman, it's interesting that you point these situations out, but since COVID spending and our government and our unelected federal officials shut down our way of life, it hasn't fully recovered from that.
		And there's been a lot of spending on that same level.
		And it upsets me that your enthusiasm for our countrymen who are suffering in North Carolina, Tennessee, and in California, I would propose an amendment that 10% of all your legal fees should be donated directly to a community in which you're fighting.
		And 10% of all campaign money spent should be directed directly to the local communities that you supposedly are representing, Ms. Perryman.
		I would like to see you do more of American civil relief as opposed to legal relief.
		Thank you for your listening.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for calling.
		Thank you for calling in.
		At Democracy Forward, we actually represent all of our clients pro bono and free of charge.
		And so we're not charging fees for our work.
		But I will tell you, I completely support, obviously, and so many support the importance of ensuring that local communities have the resources that they need, which is one of the reasons why we have had to swiftly react and go to court when this administration sought to set, you know, to shut down essential community services across the country.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Lou is in Katona, New York on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Lou.
unidentified		Hi, thanks for taking my call.
		You know, as a lawyer, I greatly appreciate what's trying to be done through litigation here, but I have to say I'm pretty pessimistic.
		This is a huge overreach of executive power, but and there may be some federal district courts and courts of appeal that are going to see it that way.
		But ultimately, this is going to wind up at the Supreme Court.
		And the recent history of the Supreme Court has been to allow the ever-expanding executive power to essentially take over all aspects of government.
		And I'm extremely pessimistic.
		I realize the litigation will slow the administration down to some extent.
		But by the time we get to the Supreme Court, my great fear is that this is all going to be for naught.
		What are your thoughts about that?
		Thank you.
		I'll take my call off.
		I'll take the response offline.
		Thank you.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, thank you.
		I mean, I'll just say we don't believe that there's one silver bullet to get out of the situation that the country is now being thrust into, a situation that's deeply harmful to people and communities.
		Litigation, of course, is a very important role.
		Without litigation, communities would still be going without programs like Head Start and Meals on Wheels and essential services.
		Without litigation, Musk and Doge would still be rifling through data at the Treasury Department on individual Americans.
		And so litigation, we know, is going to be really important in the immediate term.
		But your concern about the broader place this goes highlights, I think, what we have sought to emphasize a lot, which is that litigation is one part of the work that we need to do in this time to protect our rights and to protect the future of our country.
		But Congress is going to also have to step in and check this runaway executive power.
		And so it's going to be incredibly important in the coming months and in the coming years that both branches of government check the executive branch if the executive branch continues and the president continues to operate the way that they are operating.
		And so I, you know, I take your call and your point.
		And to me, this is more reason why we, the American people, need to be demanding more of our lawmakers and also looking to the courts to do what they can do and what we can do in the courts in this time.
		And I do think that some of the incredibly extreme policies that we are seeking, that we are having to challenge in court right now, will get a reception at the Supreme Court that will lead to permanent relief for people.
		But I certainly understand that that landscape is a difficult one in many instances and that it's going to take all branches of government.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Larry is in LaSalle, Utah on our line for independence.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Larry.
unidentified		Good morning, American.
		I wanted to commend all callers and kind of the tone of the program this morning.
		First off, it's good to hear and it's good to feel.
		I've got a comment and a question.
		My comment is that the right believes that Trump is going to save us.
		He's going to fix everything.
		The left for sure that he's the devil.
		He's going to ruin everything.
		I would suggest that maybe leader is the case.
		And for us to think that one man or two men could destroy this country or dismantle democracy by doing a job is you guys are smart people.
		It doesn't seem like you have much faith in the power of this democracy, which I do.
		I think it's way more powerful than one man.
		Well, thanks for outlasting one presidency.
		And yeah, we'll be all right.
		So just relax, everybody.
		And then what was your question, Larry?
		The question, if not this way, how is it done?
		If there is waste, fraud, and abuse, how do you find it?
		Do you just keep going like we're going?
		I would suggest that that is unsustainable to continue on this trajectory.
		Yeah, we're going to be all right.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's let Ms. Perryman respond.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		If not for the strategy that Musk is using, how do you think the government should be going after waste, fraud, and abuse, as Larry?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, we have, let me just say, there are people like the inspector generals.
		These are individuals that have massive staffs that are installed in large agencies across the federal government to do exactly this, to evaluate and ensure that there is not waste, fraud, and abuse or improper conduct.
		And what this president did in the first days of his administration was fire them.
		And so, again, I think that like what we know is that the American people want a government that works for them and want a government that works better.
		What we're seeing from this administration is an effort to install corrupt loyalists within the administration that have no obligation to the American people or are seeking to, that have no obligation to the American people and that are not really looking at where corruption is.
		They're going in for their own personal purposes, taking data and acting in a very arbitrary manner.
		So I think that, you know, my message to the administration is if you're concerned about efficient government, you need to operate in a way that is not undermining people like the inspectors general, who their entire job is to find waste, fraud, and abuse and help to root it out.
		The other thing is that, and as we've said, and I just think it's an important thing to emphasize, the United States moved away from a system that was based more on political loyalty in the 1800s because the government was operating a bit more, not transparently, a bit more corruptly, and it was not delivering for everyday Americans across the country.
		That is what led to our nation's civil service.
		And these are men and women that swear an oath to the Constitution and not to a particular political ideology.
		And it's highly concerning that this administration is coming in and seeking to remove that check, to remove that check on corruption, and then installing its own loyalists who are not interested in, who are not interested in keeping corruption at bay.
		And so we will see how this plays out.
		But I do think that communities are feeling the pain already from these decisions.
		And our job as lawyers is to make sure that as they continue to violate the law and harm people, that the courts are there and can stop some of this behavior.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Janet in Eugene, Oregon is on our line for Democrats.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Janet.
unidentified		Hi, I'm wondering the Doge that has been created.
unidentified		This is a two-fold question, and thank you for taking my call today.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		If we could just do it quickly, Janet, we have out of time.
unidentified		Yes.
		Has it been legally created?
		Because we hear a lot about the Congress should create any agency.
		Second question is, with the government right now moving too quickly, how is that impacting federal employees as well as our citizens?
		So things like Medicare and Medicaid and those types of issues.
		Okay.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		So this was, was Doge legally created and how is this, what's been done impacting federal workers and things?
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, we're in court right now on a range of lawsuits because of all of the unlawful behaviors and activities of Doge.
		And so I'll just tell you our view is that it's not operating lawfully and that the courts will eventually have to step in to stop what it is doing.
		I think what's happening to public servants in this country is generationally, generationally concerning.
		Right now, this administration is threatening federal employees in our nation who have done nothing other than work for the American people in jobs.
		And by the way, not just jobs in Washington, but jobs in all 50 states and the District of Columbia doing things like keeping our food safe, evaluating and making sure our water and air are safe, keeping our public safety safe and our communities safe.
		I mean, this is the work that federal employees do every single day.
		We're having to be in court on behalf of organizations like the American Public Health Association because they are rooting out the very people who keep our, you know, who keep us safe and healthy and ensure that our food is labeled correctly, etc.
		And so I think that this is devastating at Democracy Forward, and you can learn more about our work at democracyforward.org.
		But at Democracy Forward, we have really helped mobilize to help civil servants and also to help the American people who are concerned about what is happening with their government through our initiative, Civil Service Strong, which is a place that's a website you can go to civilservicestrong.org to learn more about how you can help our public servants in this time and what we are doing in order to try to stop this administration's targeting of the very people who have helped make our government deliver for people.
		And so I encourage you to go and learn more, to learn more about how we can support our fellow Americans in this time, but how we can support the Americans that have served the American people.
		And what this administration is doing is nothing short of devastating.
		We are in court on, I think, over five cases right now to try to stop much of this behavior, but you see the administration is just seeking to continue really, really unabated.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you so much, Skye Perryman, President and CEO of the progressive group Democracy Forward.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate your time on Washington Journal this morning.
skye perryman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for having me.
kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		And thanks to everyone who called in today.
		We are going to be back tomorrow with another edition of Washington Journal at 7 a.m. Eastern.
		Hope everyone has a nice day.
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kimberly adams ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		It's Sunday, February 9th, 2025.
		Elon Musk and his Doge team set off a wave of controversies and legal challenges over the last week.

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