Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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statement and corroborated his assertion that he was the shooter and these other two people, not Mr. Islam or Mr. Aziz, who are our clients, you know, had committed this crime, but that information was withheld.
Innocence Project Executive Director Christina Swarz.
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We are kicking off our annual Holiday Authors Week series.
And we're starting this series with the wonderful Gloria Edom, who is the founder of the literary platform Well Read Black Girl, who's joining us to discuss her book, Gather Me, a Memoir in Praise of the Books That Saved Me.
Welcome to Washington Journal.
Oh, thank you.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Thank you.
Now, talk about Well Read Black Girl, which started as an online community but has since taken on many different forms.
What is this community and how did the idea for it come about?
Yes, so Well Read Black Girl is a book club, a podcast, and now a nonprofit.
It started off really small, a group of black women reading books written by black women to support them and uplift them, especially when they were in their debut coming out party.
You know, it was their first book and we wanted to make sure they felt supported and make sure there were enough diverse voices being heard.
And so Well Read Black Girl started, again, very small, but it's grown into a movement where people feel seen and appreciated for their literary works.
And how big is this community now?
Oh my goodness, it began 20 people in a room, but now we have over 400,000 followers on Instagram.
We have tons of listeners of our podcast, and we have an annual festival each year where people come from all around the country to support the works of black women.
Well, speaking of black women authors, you have a book yourself.
Your latest book is a memoir titled Gather Me, and it's part of a quote from Toni Morrison's beloved.
What does this particular quote mean to you?
When I think about it, I get emotional because it's brought me such inspiration throughout my life.
The idea of gathering people, gathering yourself when you're reading works that make you feel seen, and bringing together community.
When we're talking about books, they're more than just books.
They're spaces for people to see each other, they're reflections.
They're inspiration in a lot of ways.
So this idea of gathering myself, these books saved me when I had challenging moments in life, when I wasn't able to find my own direction.
I could turn to a quote, turn to a book, and find my footing again.
So it's very important for me to pay homage to writers like Toni Morrison, Edward Standycat, Maya Angelou, all these writers became reflections of myself.
And the specific quote is also Toni Morrison's epigraph.
She is a friend of mine.
She gather me, man.
The pieces I am, she gather them and give them back to me in all the right order.
Yes.
And that's how books feel to you.
Absolutely.
It is just something that brings me just great joy and love and understanding.
The books themselves have been guides for me, almost like a lightpost in a lot of ways.
Right, because you write about having something of a challenging childhood when your immigrant parents from Nigeria divorced and your father returned to Nigeria, your mother remarried somebody that you couldn't quite relate to.
How did books care for you in those difficult times?
Yeah, you know, that's the beauty of the book.
It's so accessible.
I would go to the library with my siblings.
I would be able to just look at these books and read them and find a sense of hope.
And that's the power of literature.
You can see yourself when maybe you don't have a model to follow directly or you're feeling depressed or alone.
A book can really offer you some support.
And luckily, I had great teachers and mentors to offer me support as well.
So this book is really a tribute to all the people that helped me find myself when I was having challenging moments.
We have an excerpt from your book where you mentioned that in school, many of the books that you sought were absent from your syllabus.
Can you read a little bit of that for us?
Yeah.
Every year I wondered how my English class syllabus was constructed.
It seemed to me like a kind of contract, a promise from teacher to student.
Here are all the important things for you to learn in order to pass the test and cultivate a healthy sense of self.
Yet the books on my reading list told me that some stories were more important than others.
Slave narratives were occasional, but a resounding yes.
Everything else I yearned for, an array of black fiction, poetry, essays, and memoirs, well, that was glaringly absent from my coursework.
I felt a certain kind of rebellion when I failed to see the stories that reflected black history.
So yes, Maya Angelou and Frederick Douglass was there too.
But beyond that, To Kill a Mockingbird, 1984, Ernest Hemingway, William Faulkner, James Joyce, and I rolled my eyes, the ever-present catcher in the rye.
How would you compare your experience then with what students are encountering in schools today?
Yeah, at that time, my purview was very limited.
As I mentioned, you know, we read Maya Angelou and we had the opportunity to read Frederick Douglass, but that was about it.
A lot of the narratives weren't reflective of the student body, weren't reflective of my own experience.
And I feel like that's happening today.
There's so many diverse voices that are being banned or censored, and it isn't really reflecting the diversity of our country and the beauty of literature that it's so vast and there's an array of voices that deserve to be heard.
And when we have those voices, we're able to see beautiful reflections.
And I think that's so essential for people to see that, especially students, because they're building their sense of agency and their understanding of the world.
And so we need more voices to reflect that.
And it's challenging to see what's happening in schools and libraries right now.
Yes, you mentioned some of the pushback against various titles in schools, but this is also coming from the incoming administration.
There's a story in the Associated Press here about Trump's policies saying Trump wants to end wokeness in education and he has vowed to use federal money as leverage saying that Donald Trump's vision for education revolves around a single goal to rid America's schools of perceived wokeness and left-wing indoctrination.
The president-elect wants to forbid classroom lessons on gender identity and structural racism.
He wants to abolish diversity inclusion offices.
He wants to keep transgender athletes out of girls' sports.
And throughout his campaign, the Republican depicted schools as a political battleground to be won back from the left.
Now that he's won the White House, he plans to use federal money as leverage to advance his vision of education across the nation.
What does that mean, do you think, for the types of books that students are going to be encountering in classrooms?
Yeah, you know, this idea of wokeness, what I see instead is an ability to build wonder, to build curiosity in students.
And when you silence those voices and you take away those books, you are doing a disservice to students.
We need folks to feel proud of who they are and feel reflected in those stories.
Because I had a wonderful English teacher and folks that allowed me to see myself in the books, I was able to become the person I am today.
And that idea of taking books out of schools and banning them and censoring, it's so ridiculous to me because we need those stories.
It's what makes us a beautiful country.
It what makes the educational system so needed.
We need those voices.
I just get frustrated thinking about the idea of books being banned because it's what changes people's identities and their agency.
When you're able to read a book, you're able to become more of yourself.
You know, it's so necessary to have those voices.
And I hope that we're able to fight that and prevent banned books and censorships because we need that in schools.
We need books.
In just a bit, we'll be taking your questions for Ms. Edom.
Here, our number for Republicans, 202-748-8001.
For Democrats, 202-748-8000.
And for Independents, 202-748-8002.
Now, some students may be encountering a situation similar to what you described in the excerpt that you read, where the books that they're encountering in the classroom might not resonate deeply for them.
How did you teach yourself to expose yourself to more black literature in particular on your own?
Yeah, well, for me, it was really about following my curiosity.
So I would go into libraries, I would talk to the librarian, I would just kind of follow what I was looking for at the time.
And me being able to just take a risk when it came to the stories that I read, the things that I was interested in, it exposed me to so many incredible narratives.
And I was lucky enough to go to an incredible university.
I went to Howard University, and that also buoyed me and allowed me to see just the beauty and the brilliance of black history.
And I think young people need to have that curiosity, especially when there are adults in their life that might tell them, oh no, you're not supposed to do that.
The idea is building your son's sense of agency.
Like you need to make your own choices, especially when it comes to literature, because it's out there.
You can't hide from the world.
And it's important for kids to understand that they have choices and they can read things that allow them to build their own sense of self.
I'd like you to read another excerpt from your book where you write about your first experience reading Zora Neale Hurston's Their Eyes Are Watching God and how difficult that was.
Yeah.
It was a leap for me, reading-wise.
I decidedly adult book that Oprah had recommended on her show that was filled with the kind of vivid, difficult language that forced me to slow down and take each sentence in small bites.
There was a rigor to this book that I hadn't experienced before.
It was the first time I had really noticed or thought about the voice of a book.
And it wasn't an easy voice for me to understand.
You also said that you often misread things.
So what do you say to people who want to see books like Hurston's removed from curriculums simply because they say kids may not be experienced enough to properly understand them?
Well, that's the second part.
being able to have a conversation with young people, to be in dialogue, to encourage debate.
You know, we want those things.
So that allows the, like whatever they're reading, it to be reinforced for them to gain a further understanding, to add context and nuance to whatever they're learning about.
It's not simply about reading a book and taking it for face value.
It's having conversations and building dialogues with each other.
Now, you also describe your experience reading James Baldwin and what his words meant to you when you were trying to understand the beating of Rodney King, George Floyd's death.
Can you explain a bit about that?
You know, I have two younger siblings and I was just so protective of them.
And reading James Baldwin allowed me to give context to their experience, understand what they were going through as young men, understand the level of racism that we encounter in the country as black, as young black boys.
And it just gave me a grounding to give them enough nurturing and support so they could feel proud of who they were and feel just very confident as young black boys in the world.
Now, even when you wanted to read these books that you found through your own research, you found that some of the books in your own curriculum, as I understand it, were taught differently, even when you did get them.
Can you lay that out for me?
Yeah, you know, the thing is, everyone has a different understanding of literature.
So the way that some teachers taught William Shakespeare or even James Joyce were, they're all different, you know, but it was the questions and the conversations that followed that allowed me to have a better understanding of them.
And I like to encourage young people to do the close readings, to read in between the lines, to ask questions.
There's no question that it's off bounds.
It's really about going further into the text and having citations and fact-checking and building your sense of critical analysis.
So that's what I, you know, the things that I had to continuously reread and reread.
It was building my own self-analysis and being able to communicate with other people about the work.
Okay, let's go to your calls now.
Let's hear from Tom in Fort Myers, Florida on our line for Democrats.
Good morning, Tom.
Good morning, ladies, and happy holidays to you.
Enjoying the conversation.
So you just mentioned, and their eyes were watching God from Zora Neale Hurston.
That was the best thing I've done all year was read that book.
I didn't know that Oprah at one time recommended.
I actually read it because it was one of the C-SPANs in that series, the 10 Most Important Books.
I'm saying that wrong, but you did that series with the Library of Congress this year, and that was one of their books.
So my brother gave me a compilation of a lot of Zora's works, and I read them all, and they're just fantastic.
I mean, I live in Florida, so they're Florida-based, and of course, she's from Florida.
So for me to say that was the best thing I did all year, because I'm usually drawn more towards nonfiction, so this being fiction.
But again, it has sort of a Florida history to it.
So that was appealing to me.
But I just thought that was fantastic.
And I'm glad I finally did it.
I once took a Florida history course and the professor there was trying to get me to read that book and I didn't get around to it.
But as I say, it was probably the best thing I did all year was read that.
I enjoyed it.
And then all right, A Shiraff of the Silani, another one of hers.
Fantastic, just fantastic.
So anyway, I'm enjoying the conversation.
I hope you all have a great holiday.
Thank you so much.
For people who aren't familiar, how would you describe Zora Neale Hurston and her work?
Oh my goodness, Zora Neale Hurston is, she is just a beautiful, vivacious writer.
Like her words come alive on the page and you are pulled into the story.
So anyone encountering her work for the first time will just feel this beauty.
The way that she writes is it's lyrical, it's full of just beautiful visuals.
And I think that everyone should read her work.
It is life-changing.
All right.
Mary is in Wisconsin on our line for Republicans.
Good morning, Mary.
Good morning.
Yeah, hi.
Public school had a book by Maya Angelou, Why the Cage Bird Sings.
And my daughter started reading it and she was like, Wow, I'm not reading this book.
I don't care what grade I get.
And she didn't, because of the sexual abuse.
Yeah.
And she's like, she was traumatized by even seeing that on a written word, but she didn't tell me about it until two years later.
Oh, wow.
Because I had brought it, Ty started talking to her about stuff that I was going to why these LB books were being banned.
And she said, Mom, I didn't care what I got for this grade.
But, you know, to traumatize a child to have them see that is just awful.
So I don't know why anyone would suggest a book by Maya Angelou that had sexual abuse in it.
Well, I think it's a great opportunity to connect with your daughter and talk to them further about the challenges.
Sexual abuse is a real thing that many people encounter.
And, you know, I think a lot of the books need to be age-appropriate, of course.
So it's, you know, depending on how old your daughter was, it is something that requires explanation and context to the story.
So hopefully it's something that brought you and your daughter closer together to explore just the reasoning.
It was challenging for her.
But I do understand that not everyone is able to encounter the work at a certain age.
They're difficult topics, of course.
This is one of the things that is brought up quite often around these conversations of book bans that some of the material dealing with sexual topics or abuse or even different types of relationships are not age-appropriate for different kinds of children.
How do you navigate that conversation while still exposing kids to these variety of books that you're saying are so important?
Yeah, and again, you know, forgive me if I'm repeating myself.
It's just adding the conversation, the context, the nuance to these stories.
It's not simply having the student read it alone.
It's really allowing them to be in conversation and build a curiosity and have a firmer understanding of what these stories mean and the value of them.
They're going to be hard topics, but it's required.
It's, you know, it builds their self-esteem, their confidence, their understanding of the world.
The world is a difficult place.
Sexual abuse does exist.
Different identities do exist.
Racism exists.
And we can't chill young people from the realities of the world.
And books could be a great tool to enter these conversations in a safe space where there are some guide rails there and some boundaries.
So if they do have curiosities or they feel uncomfortable, they can come to a trusted adult and work through them or a trusted teacher and have a better understanding of what the text really means.
Speaking of these texts kind of guiding conversations around some really challenging topics, I want to go back to that example of you and your brothers around James Baldwin.
And I believe we have an excerpt there of more from your book related to that experience.
Yes.
My brothers' lives would indeed be shaped a certain way because they were black and for no other reason.
And my own life had already been formed by the expectation that black women could and should move the earth to protect the black men in their lives.
Because we were the only ones who cared enough to do so.
When I read Baldwin's words, I saw Rodney King's broken face and I suddenly understood the anxiety the brutal incident had triggered in me.
Can you talk about how the conversation with your brothers and in your own experience, your family, was shaped from kind of parsing what was a pretty traumatic experience through what you were reading?
Yeah, so with my siblings and my family, again, I'm a first-generation American and our family has encountered numerous challenges.
But because we had books and each other, we were able to communicate these ideas in a way to say that this isn't the only thing that defines us.
We can work through these things.
We can talk together.
We can have a safe space to find a sense of solace, you know.
And I am so grateful for the works of James Baldwin and Toni Morrison and Maya Angelou because they offered me great comfort and they provided a model for me and my siblings to see that how we could perform the world, how we can continue to have joy and hope despite the challenges of racism and other things that we encountered.
It's not simply something that just happens.
You have to really work and cultivate a sense of curiosity and love for yourself.
And books help you do that.
And stories and narratives, we all have a story to tell.
And so whether you're reading it in a book or you're talking to your family one-on-one, the stories that we tell ourselves are so important and they help us build our identity and our self-esteem, our confidence.
And we can't hide that from students or from each other, adults.
You know, we need to tell these stories in order to have a better understanding of one another and build dialogue.
Let's get back to your calls.
John is in Plainfield, New Jersey on our line for Democrats.
Good morning, John.
Hi.
Hi.
I can understand what your stories are talking about.
One time when I was like 11 or 12 years old, my teacher read to us the autobiography of Malcolm X.
And I saw some of the same problems I was dealing with being in a special ed classroom.
And later on, when I had to stay home for over a year because of school problems I had with my school system, the aide I had, I read some Langston Hughes, and also she read me Ernest's thing, The Sun Rise.
Ernest had a lot of hems away.
And she read to me the book The Longest Day.
Great history book.
And I also been getting into a lot of the history books, like when I went to school, I read a lot of books on Vietnam.
And I think books do tell stories.
And I think, like, one of the things I got from Ernest Hemway and also from Langsey Hughes, they're very interesting stories.
And one time I was in my high school, I read Bald 4.
Oh, wow.
One of the funniest basebook books you ever wanted to read by Jim Bowser and his experience with the Yankees.
It was funny as hell.
And I also got into Art Buckwall.
I read him a little bit.
I found him funny.
This is so encouraging.
Yeah, John, it sounds like books really guided you through what was a challenging period in your life.
Yeah, I mean, it's beautiful to witness the joy that people, you know, the memories you have.
Like, you can, I can remember the books I read in certain moments of my life.
And similar to what he was saying, like you can just remember the joy that you experience when you have a beautiful story.
Joe is in Rhode Island on our line for Republicans.
Good morning, Joe.
Yeah, hi.
You know, books became a big part of my life.
You know, I lived a very active life where you wouldn't think I would read that much.
I do.
And I had got a whole library in my house.
And when I was 13, I wrote Sebastian Oregon.
So that was my first grown-up novel, the trilogy.
And it really affected me, even though I was in Brooklyn and that took place in Chicago.
There's a lot of stuff I could relate to.
And then I got to high school in 10th grade.
We had an English teacher who was great.
She had us actually read instead of just reading the words.
She had us try to understand what we were reading.
And she dissected, among other things, Moby Dick, practically line by line.
And of course, it wasn't a C story at all, but it was an allegory.
And she had us act outputs from different books in the class.
And we went through Macbeth also.
She didn't waste any time, but what she did was she started the term off with a history of how words came into being and the Latin and Greek bases for a lot of our words.
And she was etymology, I think that's what you call it.
She was such a terrific teacher.
Later on, she became a college professor at Ithaca College.
And I went to a very run-down inner city school, but you could learn a lot there with teachers like that.
And I think books, unfortunately, are being pushed aside by digital input.
My son's daughter, my daughter's a college professor, and she really enjoyed being in a house with a lot of books.
And my granddaughters, my three granddaughters, are the same way.
You know, Joe raises a really interesting point that I'd love to hear you talk about, which is, you know, this shift from reading hard physical books to digital books to audio books or something like that.
Do you think it matters?
You know, I am a huge fan of audiobooks.
I think that when you're listening, when you're reading, it's important to think about accessibility.
And so that is another way that makes books accessible.
You know, there's incredible apps like Libby at the Public Library.
And the thing is, when we think about technology, there are e-readers.
There's so many ways for young people, for adults to engage with literature that we need to open that up and allow people to see that there's just great ways to engage with work.
Whether if you're reading, you're reading.
I think that's the most important part of it.
So, yes, it's challenging that maybe there are other apps or things that distract from reading, but there are other tools that allow people to also engage with it.
So it's finding the balance.
We have a question from X. JD Redding asks, Miss Adam, what are the current reading selections for the well-read Black Girl Book Club?
What are the top three books that you would recommend today?
Oh, my goodness.
So I'll go with the second question first.
The top three books I would recommend, I Know Why the Cage Bird Sings by Maya Angelou.
Absolutely.
I would also recommend a new book by Edgwich Dan DeCat called We're Alone, which explores it's a collection of essays that explores just a variety of different topics, but it's beautifully written.
And then the last book I would say is Toni Morrison's Jazz.
It's such a beautiful book that explores the history of America, the Great Migration, and her writing is so poetic.
Those are three legendary writers that I feel everyone should encounter.
And then in terms of the Well-Read Black Girl Book Club, currently, we are doing our best to support the new works of writers.
So more contemporary writers, more often their debuts.
It's their first book coming out in the world.
Most recently, we were reading a work by Jesman Ward.
She's not a debut writer, but we wanted to support her when her new book came out, Sing, Very Sing.
And right now we're getting ready for the new year.
So we're looking at books at the top of 2025.
So one of the books that we're excited to read is James by Percival Everett.
And do your book selections skew towards fiction, nonfiction?
We try to do a mix of everything.
So we'll do some genre selections.
We'll do a little romance, some nonfiction, contemporary literature.
We try to do a little bit of everything.
Okay, let's get back to your calls.
Rick is in Youngstown, Ohio on our line for Democrats.
Good morning, Rick.
Good morning, ladies.
How are we doing?
Good.
Good morning.
The reason I'm calling has been distracted by the female in Wisconsin.
I want to point out to her and her mother that thank God she had an opportunity to read a book and that she got upset and she had the opportunity to say she's not going to read it.
Oh, I understand.
You're referring to our previous caller who mentioned that her daughter was quite disturbed by what she read in the book.
Okay, go ahead, Rick.
You have no idea how many sexual victims there are across America in grade school, high school, college.
And it's a problem that has to be addressed.
You don't put it back in a corner and throw the book away.
So unfortunately, that girl was upset by reading it, and I understand that.
But how many females in America have read that book and then finally talk to somebody about being sexually abused?
Think about that, okay?
Now, the original reason I called in was to ask you two rhetorical questions.
Number one, do you think that Donald Trump is severely mentally ill?
Number two, well, let's go back to number one.
I personally think so.
I've disliked him for 38 years.
And the things, the current nominees he has.
So Rick, I do want to keep the topic focused on the books here, but I understand what do you mean in terms of Trump's perspective on book bans or something else?
Well, okay, let's go to book bans.
It's 2024.
Are you not surprised at how many books are being banned and burned and removed from libraries?
That should be of a real concern for you.
And that's all I got for today, ladies.
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
I am incredibly concerned about what's happening with book bans and the nature of just, again, censorship in schools.
And so I'm doing my best to support individuals that are advocating for, you know, more diverse books and, you know, just diversity in schools and allowing people to really exercise their First Amendment right, which is so necessary for anyone that is learning in our public schools today.
They need to learn how to advocate for themselves and continue to learn about media literacy, how to analyze the text that they're reading, how to continue to give context to the word.
It's so essential.
And it's encouraging to hear the conversations we're having this morning to see that everyone has a very strong viewpoint on how we should be conducting these things and how we should prevent banning of books because that does nothing but silence voices.
And we don't want young people to be silenced.
We want them to grow and have a voice.
Frank is in Selma, Alabama, and is on our line for independence.
Good morning, Frank.
Good morning, and how are you ladies this morning on this cold morning here in Alabama?
All right.
I love books.
And I go back and I've read two books by Mara Angelou.
I read books that was published in 1919 by J.A. Roger as Nature League.
I've read books, Miseducation of the Negro by Carter D. Woodson.
I've read books Brainwash by Tom Burrell.
I've read Raising in the Sun by Mrs. Ashbury.
I mean, they've really helped me.
I mean, they have helped, Frank.
They have helped me.
I've learned a lot from those books.
Frank, can you say a little bit more about how those books have helped you?
Where were they?
At what points in your life did they really matter?
Well, back in 1958 when I started elementary school, I didn't read that much.
And then as I grew and went in the Marine Corps and started really opening my eyes up to things, I started reading a lot.
And oh, how they have hoped me, hoped me.
And I just had to get up and call today because there's some books out there that go deep into the soul.
And that's the reason, my reason.
I'm so glad that y'all really let me get into this conversation this morning.
And once again, you ladies, y'all have a beautiful holiday and many, more days.
Thank you for taking my call.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I mean, it's so just heartwarming to hear just how books impact everyone and they're memories that last forever.
It really can change your life and your perspective on the world.
So beautiful to witness.
Tim Castleman on X asks if you'll comment on the writings of Thomas Sowell.
Have you ever read any of his work?
Oh, actually, I have not, unfortunately, but I would love to.
I'm going to add that to my reading list and continue.
Okay.
Herb is in High Point, North Carolina on our line for independence.
Good morning, Herb.
Good morning.
Thank you very much for taking my call.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Just wanted to know if she's familiar with Claude Brown's book, Man Child in the Promised Land.
Yes, I am.
Great.
That's a book that inspired me many years ago.
And, you know, all the biographies are the books I like because they give me a personal insight to somebody's mistakes and failures.
Or there are folks who aren't familiar, can you give us a little bit of insight about this book and why you chose it?
Well, I just look at it.
It's a guy that overcame a lot in his life.
And, you know, that's what we do in life.
We have ups and downs, but we can overcome them.
You know, you look at Trump.
Trump's a guy that's had a lot of ups and downs.
And think about a book about Trump and all that he's been able to overcome with forgiveness or whatever.
And so thank you for taking my call.
You know, there's another book about Power Thomas.
Man, I think it's Down These Main Streets.
You know, in these books, if you can't relate to them, you may want to ban them.
But there are people that have lived these experiences.
So thank you very much.
Thank you.
These, you know, all of these books, as you said, everyone has a story.
You know, everyone has a story.
And it's important for us to allow people to have access to those stories.
And again, not to ban them, but to be in conversation and to build our curiosity and to be able to give context to the story and the history.
It's so important that history continues to guide us throughout these conversations because it motivates so many things, especially with young people trying to figure out their way in the world.
They can cite things.
There's scholarship.
There's a Library of Congress.
There are all these stories and memoirs that we have that again serve as models for future generations.
Speaking of history, there's a question from someone who texted us this question.
Would you please discuss Zora Neale Hurston's skepticism towards school desegregation?
Oh, well, you know, unfortunately, I don't have a citation right in front of me, so I don't want to misquote, but that was one of the incredible things that I really appreciate about Zora Neale Hurstman.
She was radical during her time period and had some really robust ideas on desegregation and how African Americans should present themselves in the world.
And there definitely were, I would say, disagreements between certain things and ideas.
But again, it was welcomed, this idea for her to be, to say that, you know, perhaps this isn't what black people should do during this period.
And she's written, I mean, there's scholarship that where she writes widely about these ideas and desegregation and how her experiences attending Howard University and Bard and all these different schools.
So she had some really, really strong ideas, but I don't have a citation to, you know, quote right here, so I don't want to misquote.
Okay.
Let's now hear from Otis in Detroit, Michigan on our line for Democrats.
Oh, excuse me.
Hello.
Yeah, you know, I haven't called in in a great while, but listening to this about black books, books, period.
I come from a neighborhood in Detroit.
People don't realize it's been majority white from the creation of the city of Detroit, even when the 67 conflicts going here called White for Life Anti-Black for this neighborhood in Southwest Detroit from Corktown's more famous in Southwest back to the city in the Southwest.
And I school, I went to school where there were very few blacks.
Now I live in a part of Southwest where this majority black trying to actually change the name to African Town because World War II veterans built it.
But the first books I started reading, and I'm going to say my ex-wife, a best friend today still was married 40 years.
She eat books.
I started to read was Donald Gone.
And Donald Gawn was back doing the black exploitation movies, the Mag Superfly.
Donald Gawn wrote these books to write in Detroit about the streets, the drugs, the murder.
And that's how a lot of us, especially young men, started to read.
I continued on with a lot of my friends.
I was the only one ever continued on back in high school in the 60s, early 70s.
And there were a teacher, well, there's two white teachers in my life.
One who took me in the summer school in the fourth grade with her grandson come to the back to our neighborhood.
It was, like I said, multi-ethnic majority white, but more blue cop.
It was a blue-collar community.
And one in high school where I had been kicked out of three high schools and was finally allowed back in the Southwest because I would skip so much more so.
And love math, totally math class.
And this white teacher, Ms. Haas, I never forget her name.
She told me in this history class, my biggest problem was the reason why I was bored of school because I didn't have anything to identify as a black male in the books in this high school.
They had like Native Son, I think Black Boy was the only two books that they had for us to read.
And she turned me on when Alex Haley was writing roots.
And Alex Haley, show how old I am, was doing the EP searches, going into the Reader's Digest.
I guess he had a contract with them.
And he was putting them on albums, you know, sections of them, and putting them in the library.
So one day she brought me, and the speed was 78, and she brought me out, and she had me listening to it.
So I brought it back once I heard the first album, and I asked, is there another one?
She said he hasn't put one out yet.
But I would have gone back to her class to get that next album.
So Otis, I do want to give Miss Edom a chance to respond because what Otis is talking about is finding literature where he could find himself.
Yes.
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
You know, the words that keep coming up again and again is this that one unforgettable teacher that introduces you to the book that changes your life, that allows you to see yourself reflected.
And it is essential for all people, especially young black boys, to see themselves identified in the stories so they can relate, they can grow, they could, again, ask questions.
And I was so adamant about having those stories for my two siblings so they could see themselves reflected in the stories.
And I did the same thing.
I was constantly looking for myself reflected in literature so I could, again, you know, build my self-confidence.
There's an interesting comment here that we received from Mary B. in Boston who recommends Yellow Wife by Siddiqui Johnson and says, wish I read books like this when I was young.
I would have had the empathy I had after the diary of Anne Franks in high school.
Oh, yes.
I'm very fond of historical fiction and the book she mentioned, I'm also familiar with that.
She's a phenomenal writer.
Can you talk a little bit about that book?
Yes, so it takes place during slavery and the woman is finding herself in, oh gosh, I can't recall the exact plot.
That's it.
But the yellow wife is.
It's historical fiction.
Yeah, it's historical fiction.
And this idea of, again, going to history to tell beautiful narratives, to create an idea of the identities of the young people that were during that time.
There's just so much to be told when you're able to cite history.
Anita is in Schenectady, New York on our line for Democrats.
Good morning, Anita.
Good morning.
I just have a quick comment.
I appreciate your program so much.
And I just wanted to share a quick story.
My daughter, who's a total grown-up now, when she was in 12th grade, had an amazing English teacher who assigned the novel Beloved.
But she was so sensitive, and she contacted all the parents and let us know that there's difficult material in the book and invited us to be part of a book club with our children, which she did after school and not only discussed the book with the kids and the parents, but provided snacks and time to talk.
And it was life-changing.
I still feel emotional just thinking about what a beautiful experience that was and what a lovely, wonderful woman.
I'm going to hang up and listen on the TV because my phone is running out of electricity and I can't find a plug.
But thank you so much.
Thank you.
That is so, I'm so happy to hear you have that experience with your daughter because those are the things that make a world of difference.
A teacher that is considerate and kind and opens the door for parents and children to connect with one another and have these memorable experiences.
And that really, again, supports young people as they continue into the world to have a safe space to ask questions and have these at times difficult conversations.
This is the ideal circumstance, I feel like, for teachers to come together with parents and have great dialogue.
James is in Brooklyn, Connecticut on our line for independence.
Good morning, James.
Hey, how y'all doing?
I'm just calling because it's funny I saw y'all.
I normally don't call.
But when I was, I first started raising my kids because I had to do it by myself.
My wife passed away and I had to take over the school and everything.
And I didn't like the dead came on the leaves.
So I went and I bought them.
Guess what?
Moby Dick.
And we met Moby Dick five times.
Wow.
It is amazing of how much my children learned how to speak and learn, you know, the vocabulary of the English language.
So, you know, it's something about reading that enlightens a child, the help of them.
They both got degrees, too.
So, you know, I mean, I'm so happy and proud about them because I didn't know if I did the right thing because being an African-American, they expect you to, you know, read more African-American books and things like that.
I had them be Marcus Aurelius, George Washington, Larville Dresses.
And I think that if we go back to the basics to learn some English, you know, the English language better.
I just wanted to know if you thought about that, about reading the stoics and how they would help.
And the last thing is my question.
Do you think that we should put classical education back into your education system?
Because I think that's why everybody is unaware of really how our government works.
I'll hang up so you can ask my question.
Thank y'all.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.
Well, it's incredible to hear your experience reading Moby Dick with your children.
That is absolutely wonderful.
And I agree with you.
I feel like classical education, civics education should be a priority in schools.
Again, it teaches students how to communicate with one another and think about big ideas and how they in fact impact the whole world.
You know, we're not in a silo.
And I'm, I love, I mean, one of my favorite books right now is The Iliad by Emily Wilson, which is a translation.
And I think all these classics, I talk about the experiences I had reading William Shakespeare and, you know, Little Women and all these books that are part of the literary canon.
And I think they stand, you know, they stand their ground in this beautiful way when it comes to literature, as well as Moby Dick.
The idea is to continue to expand on that canon and have introduced new books and new voices and just grow what adults and young people can encounter in the world.
That's not to limit it, but just open it up even further.
Margaret is in St. Augustine, Florida on our line for Republicans.
Good morning, Margaret.
Hello.
Before I ask my question, I have two other authors to recommend if you had not read Thomas Soul, and that would be Robert Woodson, and I think he's still alive, and then also Walter Williams.
But no one should read 1619 without getting Robert Woodson's edited book.
But my question is, when you said about being a first-generation immigrant, I quick looked it up.
And I'm curious what your experience is with the difference in culture between what we might call African Americans that are from Nigeria and Barbados and Jamaica and so forth from our heritage African Americans here.
Foundational, I think is the word that they're using now.
I know that Oprah gave up on her charity here in America and went to Africa to put her school because some of our, we need to get rid of racism.
How do we do it?
And a lot of our affirmative action programs went the wrong way.
Do you notice the difference in culture between foundational Americans, some of them, and people from other countries like yourself?
So again, I'm first generation.
Both my parents immigrated here from Nigeria, but me and my siblings were born here in the U.S.
And I think one thing that is really important to note is the black diaspora, the idea that blackness is global throughout the world.
So a lot of the ideas that are espoused here in the U.S. are also happening in the Caribbean, in Nigeria, this idea of identity is vast.
And as a young person growing up, I attended a historically backed college.
I went to Howard University.
And it was grounded into us the idea, again, of the black diaspora, that blackness is global.
And what we're learning here in the U.S. is not too far different from what is happening overseas.
And I've really focused on that, that the idea of identity is vast and it allows you to, it contains multitudes.
And so my being of African descent doesn't, you know, divoid me from understanding the black American experience.
I think if anything, it allows me to appreciate it even more.
And being of African descent just allows me to have a greater appreciation for black American history, for the civil rights movement, for understanding the South.
All these things are connected.
We're all interconnected.
So that's the way I decide to approach it and really have a great appreciation for the history of the black movement and that movement across the world.
You know, it doesn't simply stop in one place.
It's global.
Can you talk maybe about some of the differences in the literature that you can bring in from those two experiences?
Yeah.
Because you have many black authors talking about the legacy of slavery and how that's showing up in lives, both in fiction and nonfiction.
Whereas maybe some more recent immigrants might refer to the legacy of colonialism in their work.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, there are two distinct paths, but again, they converge.
They come together in so many ways.
The caller mentioned the 1619 Project, which really outlines the different ways that racism and slavery have impacted every piece of American society.
And, you know, we have authors like Clint Smith, one of my favorite writers.
His book is called How the Word is Passed.
And he talks about the different landmarks and goes to places like Charlottesville and Thomas Jefferson's Memorial and talks about what that encounter as a black American, what that encounter means, you know, to history and being in that space with formerly enslaved people.
So all these things and these stories, again, are connected.
They're not done in silos, but they're all connected together.
Teresa is in Washington, D.C. on our line for Democrats.
Good morning, Teresa.
Oh, good morning.
I was surprised that you talked to me so quickly.
Yes, I love listening to this.
I just wanted to throw this in.
When I was a kid, my mother used to read to us all the time.
So I kind of live my life in the library, and I just loved it.
But I think also it's very important that young people, young children, read the classics, not only of African Americans, which I just, I mean, I discovered an area in our library that was nothing but black history.
It was fantastic.
But the classics are very important too.
Books by Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, Candide, for instance.
These are books that help you to understand life.
They're beyond racism.
One other thing I wanted to say: oh, books are very important, but today, since so many young people are visually stimulated, I think looking at documentaries regarding history and the world is very important.
And by the way, Chinawa, whose book Things Fall Apart, I have a lot of African books here from Nigeria.
And those are the things that I wanted to talk about.
But the emphasis on documentaries is very, very important to get them.
One other thing, I just want to interject this in quickly.
I've been working with NAIC, which is the understanding how fourth graders and eighth graders assessing how they read and do math.
And I'm going to tell you, if kids can't read before the third grade and understanding what they read, it's very difficult for them to analyze what they read.
You know what I'm saying?
So thank you.
Thank you.
That's what I want to tell you.
Okay.
Thank you, Hannah.
Thank you.
I absolutely read a lot of classics growing up.
A lot of the books that you mentioned, you know, Walt Whitman and Ernest Hemingway, Ralph Emerson.
There were just so many things that, again, shaped my understanding.
And the key piece that you mentioned that is so important is the analysis, being able to not only read the work, but have a further understanding and have context of how it all plays out in history, how you can become enlightened by these things, really expand your horizon.
And the classics are so vital.
And I was very fortunate to read so many incredible books from a variety of authors throughout my time.
Hannah is in North Carolina on our line for Democrats.
Good morning, Hannah.
Good morning.
How are you?
It's so nice to hear you talk about my favorite subject, which is blacks and books.
Well, I have a story to tell.
Make it short.
I grew up in North Carolina, rural North Carolina, and I graduated from a segregated school.
And my first introduction to black coins and writers was through, not through our curriculum, because we had the classics we were required to read the classics, but we had nothing, nothing in terms of black writers.
But we had young teachers that had gone to HBCUs in North Carolina.
And so they bought their own books.
poems to us and presented them to us.
We were required to recite them like Lance and Hughes, Mother to Son.
But later on, I found that my favorite author, and I think she seat at the top, is Zorneal Hurston.
And I thought that what she did was she presented herself not as a feminist, but a romanist.
And I saw how I identified with strong black women.
And in her book, Men and Mules, I noticed how she sat around with men and she talked.
She was out of her place, so to speak.
And I didn't know anything about her interactions in the North with some of the writers of her time.
But the reason that they didn't really understand, they didn't understand that Jordan Hurston came from a community of black people who had their own schools.
They had their own identity.
And what she did was she came north and she interacted, but she made sure that she was able to write her story.
And her story was one that I could identify with.
And one other thing was I have a younger sister who's 15 years younger than I am.
And she went through.
We're just about out of time for this segment, and I want to give Ms. Edam a chance to respond to your points before we have to let her go.
Yes, Ms. Hannah, this was so wonderful to hear just like your love for Zora Neale Hurston.
And it just shows how timeless her work is.
So many colors today have mentioned Zora because of the power of her words.
And I also want to, you know, shout out Langston Hughes, his work, that poem that you mentioned, Mother to Son, is actually what opens up my book because so much of my writing is a dedication to my son and providing him a map of sorts when it comes to literature and legacy and allowing him to understand black history.
And so I feel like every one of the callers have echoed the importance of literature, the importance of showing up for these conversations to be in dialogue, to really understand the power of words and telling your story.
And it's so incredible to hear just all the beautiful beloved memories of teachers, the teachers over time that have really influenced readers and allowed them to see themselves in work.
Well, thank you so much.
Gloria Edom is the author of Gather Me, a memoir in praise of the books that saved me, and also the founder of the literary platform, Well-Read Black Girl.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
This is wonderful.
This week, watch Washington Journal's special Holiday Authors Week series featuring live segments each morning with a new writer.
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Author and Newsweek opinion editor Bhatya Unger Sargon discusses her book, Second Class, How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women.
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Next, on C-SPAN's QA, Attorney and Innocence Project Executive Director Christina Swarns talks about the history of the organization, the root causes of wrongful convictions, and some of the clients the Innocence Project has successfully represented over the years.
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