CSPAN - Washington Journal Benjamin Johnson Aired: 2024-12-13 Duration: 15:59 [00:00:00] Together, we can ensure that C -SPAN remains a trusted resource for you and future generations. [00:00:11] C -SPAN is your unfiltered view of government. [00:00:14] We're funded by these television companies and more, including Charter Communications. [00:00:20] Charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers. [00:00:24] And we're just getting started. [00:00:26] Building 100 ,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. [00:00:34] Charter Communications supports C -SPAN as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front -row seat to democracy. [00:00:47] Joining us this morning is Benjamin Johnson. [00:00:49] He's the executive director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, here to talk about President -elect Donald Trump's immigration plans. [00:00:56] Let's begin with your association. [00:00:58] Who do you represent? [00:00:59] We represent about 17 ,000 immigration lawyers all across the country doing... [00:01:20] Well, it's hard to know what to make of that. [00:01:22] I think Donald Trump is famous for, as he calls it, the weave. [00:01:27] Like, what he says and what ends up happening could be very different things. [00:01:31] If he's true to his word and he's talking about truly a mass deportation, then I think it is deeply troubling. [00:01:37] I think it's going to have enormous ramifications both financially, economically and socially. [00:01:43] There's a lot of people in this country who have been here for a very long time and ripping them out of the workplace, ripping them out of the communities where they live is a reality that I think it's going to settle in pretty quickly and I think people's view of that will. [00:02:03] Which agency right now is in charge of finding and deporting immigrants who are here illegally and who are committing crimes? [00:02:16] Also known as ICE? [00:02:44] Sure. [00:02:44] There's no question that the law, somebody who's here without authorization is subject to deportation. [00:02:49] I think what's driving most of the way that we enforce immigration law Is a reality check. [00:02:56] It is the fact that, because in large part, Congress has not done anything to align our immigration policy with economic reality, we have a lot of people here who have been here for a very long time out of immigration status and randomly, and enforcing the law against all of those would be incredibly disruptive and incredibly difficult. [00:03:20] So I mean it's sad that we've gotten to that point, allowing that to happen, but the answer is not To be naive [00:03:51] about the reality that we're in now. [00:03:54] Of those undocumented immigrants, illegal immigrants who are committing crimes, do they have a right to a lawyer before they're deported? [00:04:01] You have a right to a lawyer. [00:04:03] Getting it's but it's different than in a criminal context it's the proceedings can continue whether they've got a lawyer or not so the ability to find a lawyer particularly when you're been put in really remote locations really remote detention centers is incredibly difficult so many many of the folks that are going through the system [00:04:43] What is the percentage? [00:04:47] 85, 90 % of the folks that are here in the United States have been here for a very long time, majority more than 15 years, and they don't have no criminal record. [00:04:57] Of the ones, that other like 10, 5%, they have a criminal record that's... [00:05:03] Almost all traffic violations. [00:05:05] It is a tiny fraction of the immigrant population here, the undocumented population, that has committed a serious crime. [00:05:12] So there is an opportunity then to focus on those folks because that is a very small number. [00:05:17] I know that folks have been playing fast and loose with what that number is in the current environment, but it is a very small number. [00:05:23] If they wanted to go after serious criminals, that's something that's doable, and I think that's something that across the board people would support. [00:05:31] It doesn't help that... [00:05:33] Under immigration law, we have a very broad definition of what's a serious criminal. [00:05:37] I mean, the definition of an aggravated felony can include shoplifting and murder. [00:05:42] So that doesn't help with the ability to really decide what do we mean by criminal alien. [00:05:48] Murderers? [00:05:48] Sure. [00:05:49] Shoplifters? [00:05:50] I'm not sure we should make that a priority. [00:05:52] How quickly are those folks deported? [00:05:55] It can happen very quickly, particularly if it's a very serious offense. [00:05:59] You'll go through something called the expedited removal process. [00:06:02] So you could effectuate removals in that context in days. [00:06:06] Weeks, if not hours, depending on the circumstances. [00:06:09] I do believe, as a lawyer, I do believe that the system can move very quickly without losing our core values as Americans, which is everybody needs an opportunity to be heard. [00:06:21] You can lose your case, but you've got to be able to make a case of what happened and assert your rights. [00:06:27] So I would be really concerned about America in response to this environment giving up the things that we believe to be... [00:06:35] True and sacred, which is a judicial system that is fair can be fast, but it should be fair first. [00:06:42] Here's a headline in the national section of the New York Times. [00:06:45] Trump will need help to fulfill his promise of mass deportations. [00:06:48] Local level cooperation would be indispensable to make a policy work. [00:06:55] You're probably going to need either a massive increase in capacity for the Immigration and Customs Enforcement or some cooperation with some... [00:07:05] I think? [00:07:51] Let's listen to President -elect Donald Trump. [00:07:53] He appeared on NBC's Meet the press last Sunday and criticize the leniency migrants face when they go through the immigration process in the United States. [00:08:03] Somebody walks onto our land and we have to now say welcome to the United States. [00:08:10] They could be a criminal or not a criminal. [00:08:13] We release them into our country. [00:08:15] It's called catch and release. [00:08:16] We release them into our country. [00:08:18] Wait just one second. [00:08:19] And now they get them lawyers. [00:08:23] And the lawyers are good lawyers. [00:08:26] And everybody has a lawyer. [00:08:28] And do you know how many judges we have? [00:08:30] Thousands. [00:08:31] Thousands. [00:08:32] Now, here's what other countries do. [00:08:34] They come into the land and they say, I'm sorry, you have to go. [00:08:37] And they take them out. [00:08:39] Okay? [00:08:39] With us, once they touch our land, we're into litigation that lasts for years, costs us... [00:08:46] Hundreds of billions of dollars. [00:08:48] We have judges, and I'm sure they're all honest, but I don't know that for a fact. [00:08:53] You can imagine what's going on with the judges. [00:08:56] But just so you, because I have a lot of judges, I tell you what, I know more about judges than any human being in history. [00:09:02] Look, we have judges. [00:09:06] Every time somebody puts two feet or even one foot on a piece of our land, it's welcome to long -term litigation. [00:09:14] Other countries... [00:09:16] Every other country. [00:09:17] When somebody walks on and they see that they're here illegally, they walk them off, they take them back to where they came from. [00:09:23] We have to get rid of this system. [00:09:25] It's killing our country. [00:09:29] Benjamin Johnson, your reaction? [00:09:31] I mean, if what Donald Trump is saying is that by getting rid of the system that we get rid of judges and lawyers, then that's a complete remaking of who we are as a country. [00:09:41] It's what distinguishes us from many of the authoritarian... [00:09:47] We're good to go. [00:09:52] We're good to go. [00:10:26] How do you address the asylum laws? [00:10:32] We're good to go. [00:10:53] We're good to go. [00:10:59] We're good to go. [00:11:08] People that are being persecuted in China for being Christians. [00:11:12] It protects women who are in oppressive regimes where the Taliban is treating them like animals. [00:11:20] So the idea that we can and are a place where people can receive asylum where they're being persecuted is something we should be proud of and we should invest in a system that can figure out who deserves that protection and who doesn't. [00:11:33] Throwing that away because it's a challenge is a mistake. [00:11:38] Let's go to Alexis, who's in Detroit, an independent. [00:11:40] Welcome to the conversation. [00:11:42] Good morning. [00:11:43] Good morning. [00:11:44] Thank you. [00:11:46] My question is, and I know the guest won't have an answer, but I'm posing the question, I guess, maybe more to C -SPAN, Greta, and if you guys could do a segment on this, on immigration with this angle. [00:11:58] How many housing units are going to be opened up once the mass deportations start? [00:12:11] Mr. Johnson? [00:12:31] Well, I think that the last... [00:12:33] The comment obviously was wrong and bleeding heart. [00:12:36] Traders were folks who believe in the American system of justice and work to ensure that the decisions that are made by the system have integrity. [00:12:44] And I think that the integrity of those decisions is improved by there being a real process and an opportunity to be heard. [00:12:51] That can happen in an expeditious way, but I think it's an important part of who we are as a country. [00:12:56] In terms of the housing units, the thing you have to remember is Sure, if you removed all of those folks, would those houses be available? [00:13:03] But what about the jobs that they are working in? [00:13:07] What about them as consumers of goods in those communities? [00:13:11] So you have to remember, there are places like Topeka, Kansas. [00:13:14] Topeka, Kansas is literally paying people to move to Topeka, Kansas. [00:13:18] You move to Topeka, Kansas and get a job, the city will give you $5 ,000. [00:13:24] That's because they are... [00:13:49] That doesn't mean all of the folks that are coming will fit into that equation. [00:13:54] But it means we are missing an opportunity to say how about if those folks came legally to places and communities that needed them. [00:14:02] Then that problem becomes an opportunity. [00:14:05] But that's going to require Congress to look past the politically expedient solution, the rhetoric of mass deportations, and think about how do we create a system that will work, that will put immigrants where we want them and need them, [00:14:18] and create a legal system to do that. [00:14:21] If we did that, Then again, I think we could absolutely solve this problem. [00:14:25] We'll go to Easton, Pennsylvania. [00:14:27] John, Democratic caller. [00:14:30] Hi, Mr. Johnson. [00:14:32] I was wondering if you can explain to me why immigration is a problem when the very people who wrote our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights were immigrants. [00:14:45] Our whole First Continental Congress were immigrants. [00:14:49] And why is the border a wall on the border? [00:14:58] Thanks, John. [00:15:17] Mr. Johnson. [00:15:18] Yeah, to be clear, I don't think immigration or immigrants are a problem. [00:15:23] It is true that we are facing problems in the way that we manage immigration. [00:15:28] It's not properly funded. [00:15:30] There's too much political infighting and partisanship in figuring out how do we build a system that will work. [00:15:36] So our immigration system is the problem. [00:15:39] I think immigrants are caught up in that. [00:15:43] Look, here's the basic reality. [00:15:45] When you pit the world's largest economy against an immigration system, the economy is going to win every time. [00:15:52] There is a demand for workers. [00:15:54] There is a demand for the unification of families, of people that are living and working in the United States.