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Today, House Republican leaders offer remarks following Republican election victories in the House, Senate, and White House.
That's live at 10 a.m. Eastern on C-SPAN.
C-SPAN now, our free mobile video app, and online at c-SPAN.org.
Next, a discussion about U.S. relations with Iraq, how the country's young population can build up the economy, and the state of Iraq's public and private sectors.
Hosted by the Atlantic Council in Washington, D.C.
This is an hour and a half.
Thank you.
It's a great honor to welcome you to this insightful session.
I was preparing to moderate this session and this discussion, and I sought to understand the Iraq initiative led by Dr. Kadim.
And one particular statement resonated deeply with me.
It's critical that international conversation about Iraq moves from being solely focused on security and military engagement to broader policy issues, such as attracting investment, improving governance and service delivery, and harnessing the country's unique geopolitical role.
How I can find better words to encapsulate the dreams of millions in the Middle East today, myself included.
As a Lebanese individual raised in a war-torn environment, I have witnessed the aspirations of my parents and those of previous generations diminished in the pursuit of a safe heaven, free from the echoes of the conflict.
Thus, an opportunity for us together here today to discuss the economy of Iraq signified that this region cannot be defined fully by war and the history of war.
I don't want to go further in this, so we will start discussing this: the good opportunities and the challenges.
Today's discussion will focus on Iraq's journey to transcend its dependence on oil and embrace a more diversified economic future.
We will delve deeper into this topic, but first, allow me to extend a warm welcome to my esteemed guest here, Victoria Taylor, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Iraq and Iran at the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs at the State Department.
We are supposed to be joined by Mr. Kadim al-Hassani, chief advisor to Prime Minister Sudani.
We don't know at what time he will be with us.
He will be live from Iraq.
Mr. Felipe Balhaj, he's very well known in the MENA region in Iraq, Egypt, and my country, Lebanon.
He was the vice president to the World Bank and he's now senior fellow at the Policy Center for the New South.
And Dr. Ahmad Tabak Shali, he's a non-resident and senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, Middle East program.
So first we have to start by opening remarks from each of you.
I would appreciate if we can limit this to five minutes, Maximum.
Yes.
And I will start with you, Diaz, Taylor.
Sure.
Well, first, thank you for having me, and thank you to Dr. Khadim for hosting this today.
I couldn't agree more that it's important for us to really think about how we broaden and build the partnership with Iraq.
And that's why from our side, we are always talking about, the United States is always talking about how we build a 360-degree partnership.
And by that, I think what we really mean is trying to ensure that our relationship is not solely based on security and U.S. military presence, and that it's building the economic and energy elements of the partnership, that we're building on educational ties and cultural ties and the ties between two people.
And the relationship between any two countries at base is really reliant upon those people-to-people connections.
In terms of looking at the economy, I think we from the U.S. side are also thinking about how can we expand those economic and energy ties.
That means, I think, a few things.
One, diversification and modernization.
We're trying to do that on the energy side, trying to see how both a U.S. government and U.S. private sector can support Iraq's efforts to become energy independent, how it can develop renewable energy resources, how it can continue to develop other sectors in, for example, agriculture, how the educational sector can be expanded.
And I think another element that I want to focus on is really the improvements on the investment climate.
You know, unlike some of our counterparts from other countries, we can't just direct U.S. companies to invest in Iraq.
We need them to feel that there's an environment and an opportunity to make good business deals.
And there's still some work that needs to be done by the Iraqi government to really attract the U.S. private sector.
And so we are focused on how we can encourage reforms to the investment climate that would reduce the regulatory burden, that would improve enforcement of contracts, how we can do that with both advice and technical assistance from the U.S. government side.
And I think these are important ongoing conversations that we will continue to have with the Iraqi government.
Thank you so much.
We'll discuss that further.
But I have to move to Mr. Balhaj.
No, thank you very much.
Thank you for the invitation.
I'm very happy to be with you on this panel.
Let me say first that I fully subscribe to what was said right now, and notably on the very crucial matter of making of Iraq a real attractive platform for investment above and beyond oil, above and beyond just the energy sector, which is very important.
Today it's more than 90% of the Iraqi economy.
It shouldn't be that way, because Iraq has tremendous potential to go beyond that, because if it's human capital, because of its resources beyond oil, and also, frankly, because of what countries around Iraq are looking at when they look at Iraq.
They should not be just looking at Iraq as a hub for oil and gas.
It should be just that.
So for me, the story of Iraq is really a story of economic diversification, very important.
It's a story of transparency and governance, absolutely fundamental.
If we are looking at making of Iraq a platform for attracting investment, you know, legal and judicial reform, enforcement is very important.
It is also an issue or a story of sustainable growth.
The World Bank a year and a half ago, two years ago, issued a climate report around the world, and Iraq was one of the countries.
The situation in Iraq when it comes to climate is dismal.
Water, desertification, pollution.
We are in a situation of deep crisis.
And it's not just Iraq.
It's unfortunately large numbers of countries in the Middle East and North Africa, not necessarily Lebanon, by the way.
Yes.
But Iraq needs also to diversify its economy in order to engage and find solutions to this looming crisis, and that is the water crisis.
One can go on and on on the geopolitics of water in Iraq, and they are deep in terms of their ramification, Turkey and others.
But be that as it may, clearly the policies of the government are not where they should be in terms of natural resource preservation, aside from the oil sector.
So to kind of recap, governance, transparency, absolutely fundamental.
Diversification of the economy, very, very important, in order to make sure that Iraq can reap the benefits of what it has, and notably, its human capital.
This is also something that we need to look at.
Remember, Iraq has been for years known as one of the countries in the whole Middle Eastern and North Africa that has the most capable elite.
And that elite now is of another generation.
Now we need to groom another elite.
So education, health, very important, and social protection would be also a very, very important part of the conversation.
Thank you so much.
And thanks for also talking about the human capital.
It has been always like that in Iraq through history.
And we hope now with the new generation they will recap that.
I will move now.
I don't know if Mr. Kadim al-Hassani was able to join us or not yet, but Dr. Tabakshali, can you hear us?
I can hear you.
Yeah.
Okay.
The floor is yours.
And you guys can hear me, I take it.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, also.
Well, first of all, thank you very much for the invitation.
And I would have loved to be with you guys.
But however, thank the Lord for online and Zoom and what have it.
Makes life so much easier for all of us.
Right.
Well, what am I going to say?
I'm going to sort of be saying, covering a couple of things.
One of them is going to some of the stuff that my other two colleagues have mentioned, but also to give an idea where we are right now and where we're going.
And to also address some of the issues.
Anyone's seen Iraq in the last couple of years, or especially the last year or so, would come and tell you the country is booming.
We have construction spending on a scale that I know people would laugh, but sort of what Dubai has seen in early 2004, 2005.
I mean, literally, people who have not seen Baghdad will not believe it.
Those who see Baghdad and been to it through Sierra.
So what is the cause of that and where is that coming from?
First of all, three main things, the way I look at it, have contributed to that.
The first is we've had a relative period of stability over the last five years.
And I mean relative in the Iraqi context.
I mean, you mentioned something about history of war.
For us, that history has been a history of intense conflict since the 1980s.
We've been through pretty much almost every bad thing that the country can go through with the exception of what's happening in Gaza today.
But other than that, over a 40-year period, we've been through almost anything conceivable.
So the last five years have provided sort of a predictable environment for the private sector to sort of plan.
And that started way before the current government came into office.
So that's one thing.
The second thing has been post-COVID and definitely post-Ukraine, higher oil prices played a significant role in filling government coffers in a way.
So we've accumulated surpluses by end of 22 that allowed the current government to benefit from the relative stability that we've had, plus to embark on two super expansionary budgets.
The first one was for 23, the second one was 24, and we'll have likely to have one for 25.
Our policies are what people who look at the IMF and World Bank and stuff would be sort of the phrase would be used as procyclical.
So basically, it exaggerates the good and also exaggerated the bad.
And finally, the thing that contributes to all of that has been the changes in cross-border transfers in November 22.
Basically what they've done is that they've led to a process that started, they accelerated the adoption of banking in the country.
We pretty much moved away from, or not moved away, are in the beginning of moving away from dependence on cash into using the banking system, which can transform the whole economy.
To give everybody an idea in numbers, what does that mean in a way?
One of the things I do is I co-manage an equity fund that invests in Iraq.
For people who don't know, we do have a stock exchange.
Last year, the fund was up 110%.
This year, we're up something like 30% year to date.
And that just gives an idea what kind of transformation the country is seeing.
But here, I'll just end it with three or a large but, but, but in a sense.
And that's really where the challenges we have.
Basically, the budget, irrespective of its size, and that sort of pretty much answers almost everything that people have talked about when it comes to diversification, doing other stuff, not depending on oil and so forth.
In fact, if anything, what we've done is that we pretty much perpetuates the whole policy that we've had since post-2003, which basically enlarges the role of the state in the economy.
So basically what happens is it exaggerates and perpetuates the imbalances that we have.
We spend more on current expenditure, which is basically salaries, pensions, subsidies, than we do on investment spending.
We substantially do more than that.
We tend to double down, especially after almost every near-death experience, with the last one being 2020.
And so end of the day, what happens is it deepens our dependence on oil.
It deepens our vulnerability to external shocks.
And it's always a question of really, it's not a question of when can things go wrong, but not if, but when.
And that is the challenge that we have: how do we change that?
Any discussions when it comes to diversifying the economy and building all that stuff without taking this into consideration cannot happen.
Ultimately, I'll end it with this, and that the government, in a sense, or the economy depends on oil.
Without it, any change in the oil bar without it, we lose our whole economy is based on that.
So, it's almost next to impossible to diversify in the current environment.
I'm not saying that we can't, but the challenges are very real.
So, I think with that, I'll end it, and I'll leave it to Q ⁇ A afterwards.
Thank you so much.
I don't think Mr. Hassani is ready with us yet.
But so, I'll move to the question.
And here, if anybody wants to ask a question, please go to ASKAC.org and submit your questions, whether it's online or here from the audience, please.
DAS Taylor, there's one question everybody is asking when it comes to Iraq.
They forget everything we're talking about here.
And the main question, is the U.S. abandoning Iraq or not?
So, are you able to answer that question?
Yeah, so I think the first thing I would say to that is something our President, our Secretary of State have said repeatedly, stable, secure, sovereign, a prosperous Iraq is in the U.S. national interest.
We think that's in Iraq's national interest as well.
That's a shared goal.
And so, while, of course, I think people are aware of our recent announcement regarding the transition of the coalition presence in Iraq.
Again, our relationship is about a lot more than the coalition.
Our relationship is about the people-to-people ties.
It's about the ties between our companies, the economy, energy, and an ongoing security partnership.
And so, our engagement with the Iraqi government across the board is really intended to not only maintain the partnership, but to strengthen it.
You've said in your opening remarks about something about the 360-degree relationship.
But you said also you want American companies to go there.
First, but it's not up to you to push the American companies to go there.
It's up to what the Iraqi government can offer and make Iraq attractive to these companies.
What's your advice to them?
Yeah, so I think what we can do as a government, and of course what we try to do, is we can certainly encourage U.S. companies to take a look at opportunities in Iraq.
We can make them aware of the opportunities.
We can create, you know, there are events and certainly ways that we can help to highlight opportunities for U.S. companies.
But yes, we cannot direct them to take advantage of those opportunities.
They have to make their own investment decisions and they have to decide that Iraq is profitable for them.
And so, I think there are a number of things that the government can continue to do that would help attract companies.
You know, I think the Prime Minister has taken steps over the course of the past year to also increase a focus on private sector development.
Certainly, the work the government's doing to reform the financial sector is important.
That's important not only for foreign investment and foreign companies, but it's important for Iraqi companies to be able to continue to develop.
I think the work that the government does to ensure that foreign companies and US companies are paid, that contracts are enforced, that the companies that are there have a positive experience, that's important because companies certainly will look to the treatment that other companies are receiving.
And if US companies and other foreign companies look like they're being very successful, then that's certainly more attractive to the other companies that are taking a look at the Iraqi market.
And I think the work that the government can do to fight corruption, to improve the enforcement of contracts, all of these things, reducing regulatory barriers, those are all things that help make it easier for not only US companies, other foreign companies, but also Iraqi companies ultimately.
And so certainly we're having conversations with the Iraqi government to highlight some of these issues.
And I know that they are also interested in looking at these aspects as well.
I'll follow up on that, but I'll move to Mr. Valhaz because you were talking about the corruption and you consider it one of the main challenges for the Iraqi government.
Actually, Prime Minister Sudani, in his recent interviews with Farida Kariya, he mentioned, he acknowledged that this is a problem.
Your thoughts?
Yeah, I didn't say corruption, I said governance, by the way, just to make sure.
But yes, as I mentioned earlier, the issue of having an investment climate that is conducive to investment is absolutely fundamental.
Looking at the whole MELA region, Middle East and North Africa region, every single country has one major issue.
It's the role of the state in the economy.
Very heavy.
And any economic determination, any policy is taken through the lens of state-owned enterprises.
And in Iraq, financial sector, you have two major banks, Rashid or Rafide, that are basically managing 90% of the financial sector.
I remember a few years back, in a good discussion with the governor of the central bank, we at the bank were able to open a window there to allow for state-owned enterprises and for the state in a way to be able to deposit in private banks rather than just in those two big banks.
It was just a small window that was open, but still, the weight of the public sector in the financial sector or in any other place is very, very, very important.
Now, there is something else, because one talks about the challenges, but there are also huge opportunities in Iraq, and notably, the complementarity between Iraq and some of its neighbors.
We have worked with the Iraqi government for years on putting together roads projects that open Iraq to more trade with its neighbors, that is Jordan, Turkey, and other places.
That too is a huge opportunity because by going into infrastructure, opening ways, literally ways to trade for countries in the neighborhood,
allows not only for diversification, but also, frankly, when countries get into a place where they have mutual economic interests, generally tensions between them kind of Become less of an issue.
Everybody has an interest in keeping things moving.
So, there too, there is something that the Iraqis have been doing, are still doing, and I believe is a way forward.
And last point I'd like to make is the necessary intelligent cooperation between Kurdistan and the rest of the country.
The Kurdish Republic of Iraq is part and parcel of Iraq, no doubt about it.
But there is a need for more there.
During the years I worked, whether it was when I was in the mashrap working on Iraq directly, or as a VP for MENA, looking at it from slightly more afar, but still there.
The tension was going up and down, up and down.
There is a need for more engagement between Erbil and Baghdad.
And I believe that many things have been done that are positive there.
And still some remains to be done in order for Iraq as a whole to be a platform for investment, not just the north of it.
It should be the whole of the country from Erbil all the way down to Basra and every place in between.
Thank you.
I wish we are joined by somebody from the Iraqi government to follow up on these things because seriously it's very important because everybody is saying that Kurdistan region has very big, and the relation between Baghdad and Erbil has very big potential to impact the Iraqi economy and everything in Iraq.
And I want to ask you, As Taylor, on this.
You've been trying to ease things, ease the relationship and help.
And also, you were advocating for bank reforms, but on the relation between Erbil and Baghdad.
What stands on the road?
Yeah, so I think Fareed makes a really critical point here.
And of course, our relationship with the Kurdistan Regional Government is an important part of our overall relationship in Iraq.
And we want to make sure that there is a strong and resilient Iraqi Kurdistan region that means also economically prosperous.
And so it is important that there are not only this not only effective coordination between Baghdad and Erbil, but I think improved coordination and communication.
And certainly we engage both in Baghdad and with our friends in Erbil to see how we can help to support this goal.
The challenges on this, the challenges, can you elaborate a little bit on the challenges between is it a governance problem?
Like Mr. Balhaj said, there's a governance challenge here.
Not about this topic especially, but since you were engaged on this topic itself, specific topic, the relation between Erbil and Baghdad.
Yeah, I think the challenges between Erbil and Baghdad in terms of governance are well known.
And we continue to engage with all elements, both in Baghdad and Erbil, to see how we can facilitate an improved relationship.
At the end of the day, we cannot resolve these issues for either Baghdad or Erbil, but we can be good counterparts and good friends to both and trying to support improved communication between all parties.
Thank you so much.
I'll move to you, Mr. Tabakshali, can you hear me?
Yes, I can.
Can you elaborate on this topic?
For sure, for sure.
Look, I mean, the thing is, there's been a lot of work done by many people on, especially the US and others between, let's say, the Kurdistan regional government as well as the government of Iraq.
But the thing is, in my view, almost all the solutions that people have been working on over the last few years have been technical solutions.
I mean, they get to work on the technicals between the two sides.
The issue, the real conflict between the two is not a question of whether, especially when it comes to oil and gas, it's not technical.
It's not interpretation of different contracts or different things like that.
The real difference, the real issue, which nobody has seems to ever address, and I'm speaking by that not only Iraq's friends, but also within Iraq itself, is the fact the crucial difference between the two sides on how they look at the nature of the Iraqi Federation.
As you know, by constitution, we are a federal entity, but we've never defined in the constitution exactly the relationship between the federal center as well as the peripheral.
And in those two, there are huge differences between, let's say, the stance taken by the KRG, which looks at the federation almost in a classical sense, whereby the center is some of the parts with the parts being semi-autonomous, whereas most of the view in the center has been the reverse.
So all the solutions, every time we have discussions over everything, they always fail.
And you look back to this history starting from 2006 onwards, enormous work has been done on the federal oil and gas law, on the shared federal budget recently over the issue over the resumption of exports from Turkey.
They all look at technical, but nobody seems to look at the fundamental.
And if we don't address the fundamental, we're not going to go anywhere.
In your opening remarks, you're saying that we had a boom because relatively, and you spoke about the reasons, one of them relatively quiet in Iraq.
But you were also, and this is one of the three external factors you mentioned.
It's not internal.
How we can sustain, how Iraq can sustain this boom by focusing on internal factors, what can be done to keep this boom or at least sustain some growth?
Well, that would need to be done by sort of, let's say, Farid mentioned something like the change in the nature of the economy or same thing with Wood McDury, diversification.
The issue with those, again, we don't seem to be addressing the fundamentals of those things.
So one of the questions comes in, diversify the Iraqi economy, which means basically moving away from the dependence of the state.
The state is either the state directly or state-owned enterprises.
One of the issues with most of our economy, we have a vibrant private sector, we have a private sector that's actually quite relatively large.
However, almost all of it's in the shadow economy or the parallel economy, so to speak.
A lot of it, by the way, is in services, in consumption, and mostly in stuff.
We import almost everything.
So the thing is, one of the things that we need to really diversify is not diversify away into more restaurants and more hotels and more service-oriented industries.
We need to diversify into manufacturing.
One of the things we can't do in other manufacturing or agriculture is the fact that we have an obsession with a strong currency, which basically our currency makes us super uncompetitive compared to our neighbor.
So for instance, our two largest or three, two of our three largest exporters would be Turkey and Iran.
Both of these countries' currencies have pretty much collapsed over the last, let's say, 10 years versus the dollar, which means versus us.
So in addition to the challenges that we have inside Iraq, and I think Victoria mentioned two really very important ones, which is basically the rule of law, enforcement of contracts, basically the equal application of the rule of law.
That was one of them.
Regulatory burden.
These are very, very complex things that we have.
For instance, we have no banking sector.
Without the private banking sector, there is no economy.
The changes we've had the last couple of years, a move is happening, phenomenal move in the move for the banking sector.
So that's happening.
But you have the other two, which are really crucial.
Without, I mean, we already have those obstacles, plus we have a stronger currency.
So again, when we work on these things, we don't seem to be addressing the core issues.
We go over addressing technicals, which are wonderful, but they don't really provide real long-term solutions.
I think we as a country need to have this internal, not so much somebody on the outside tells us what to do.
We need to be focusing on that in the sense of we, because we, I mean, like one of the efforts of last years is like the strength of the Iraqi dinar.
Because we import everything, the fear is if the Iraqi dinar weakens against the dollar, that means exports will become more expensive, which is true.
However, if the export doesn't become more expensive, we will keep on depending on imports.
And that is one of the big challenges facing our diversification.
Luckily, the big thing happening is the banking sector, but I'll leave it there.
Mr. Belhaj, I want to follow up on that.
Is there, for sure, there is an internal capital cycle in Iraq, but I don't know how efficient it is.
I mean, when you get money from oil, how do you reinvest it and where do you invest it?
How the Iraqi government can improve that and where, where, and in which sectors?
Maybe a quick point here on the strength of the Iraqi dinar.
And I fully agree.
The issue is that, again, without taking any position on it, you need to have volume to export so the value of your currency becomes a factor.
But if the only thing you're exporting is oil, then well, it's, you know, it is, but it is a discussion to be had.
Something that struck me in the years I worked on Iraq is that good year, bad year, whether we had oil was, you know, whether it is at 70 or 20, because I was there when the oil was at 20 and Iraq was in very, very dire situation.
The bulk of the income is going into the functioning of the state.
Which is, again, going back to the role of the state in the economy, the role of the state in the economy is not just through state-owned enterprises and the factors of production that are owned by the state.
It's also the cost of running the state.
If you have a bloated public sector, not as efficient as one would like it to be, well, then you have an issue.
Because if the bulk of your money is going to financing the functioning of the state and meeting your debt obligations, well, what remains for investment becomes rather slim.
So there too, there is an issue to be discussed.
How can you get into a reform that would allow, again, not between today and tomorrow, but over a long term, can you make sure that the public sector, the functionaries, the administration, the number of people go down.
And there are many ways of doing it.
And we have done it as a bank in many countries where you find technical solutions for over a period of 5, 10, 15 years, you can actually lower the cost of running the state and possibly open more space, fiscal space,
for investment that would then trigger what a number of our countries are trying to do, and that is more space for public-private partnerships, where by having the state invest out of this newly acquired fiscal space,
invest in areas where the private sector could be performing as well, whether it is infrastructure, whether it is health, education, you name it.
All sectors could be open for PPP schemes and arrangements.
And for that, again, you need the state to show that they can put some skin in the game.
And to put skin in the game, you need to have skin.
You need to have that fiscal space that would allow you to be a player in prompting the private sector to take considered risks.
Thank you so much.
I know you've spent enough time on this and on the MENA region, but I want to understand from you, I want to simplify this to an average person.
Can you give me a tangible example?
If you are advising, can you give me a tangible what can be done?
Because the growth so far is just 6%, I think.
No, look, two years ago it was 7 and some.
Then in 2023 it went down to 2 and some.
I don't know where we are right now.
But the growth in Iraq is linked to the fluctuation of oil.
Well, that's why we are all looking at diversifying so that you don't have the growth, meaning the capacity of the state to do more for its people, hinging on some geopolitical issues or what is decided in Vienna during a meeting of OPEC.
So this is something that Iraq, as a major oil producing country, needs to think through, actually.
Thank you so much.
I'll go back to you, Ahmad.
Can you hear me?
Yes, I can.
I mean, just to go back to the oil and non-oil economy, I think the US acknowledged that there was some progress around 6%.
It is still above 90%, the dependency, 90% dependent on oil.
Since you are the expert here on this, can you give me in which sector, in which sectors Iraq made some progress here in nine-oil economy, non- yeah, non-oil economy?
Well, two things.
First of all, I mean, the question of percentages is always should be taken in context.
So when you say 90%, it depends.
Are all prices low or all prices high?
So I remember like there was a beautiful report by the World Bank years ago called Red Ducks or something and was talking about how Iraq was diversified in the, you know, in the 90s and 80s, which is absolutely correct.
But also they were talking percentages, which basically in the 90s we were under embargo, not exporting any oil.
So therefore percentage of the model economy is much, much, much bigger than it is.
So I mean, I think percentages, like you always are going to take them with a pinch of salt or in context, in the sense of 90% in one.
When all prices are high, the dependency is over the 95%.
All prices are low, it becomes 80%.
But in terms of what we need, we pretty much need almost everything, almost every sector.
But I, as an Iraqi, I would focus on our agriculture.
Agriculture for us is extremely important for two reasons.
One is it employs something like 20% of the private sector.
Okay, most of it is informal.
Most of it is low paid, but it's there.
A third of the country is in agricultural or rural areas.
So we need to be investing a lot more there.
Hopefully we will be investing in not mechanized agriculture because we can't do that.
We need to absorb people as opposed to replace them by machines.
So I think that is clearly an important sector.
We can't hope in any way to replicate the success of Asian countries or other countries and so forth in terms of being a hub for manufacturing, but at least we can start with those two and work with all the areas where they are interconnected.
So in terms of agriculture, you come into managing your water.
Our whole water system is ancient.
Our pipelines go back to the 70s, our irrigation.
So we can spend a ton of energy into these areas, which we can create local industries that don't need to travel a great deal.
But in terms of what do we need, we almost need everything because we almost import everything.
We almost import even the dates that we export.
I mean, we are large volume exporters in dates, but we are nowhere in terms of the dollar value of data exports.
Thank you so much.
I think we can go on and on, but I want to take some questions from the audience.
But Mrs. Taylor, I want to ask one more question about the banking reforms that you are advocating and asking for.
What further and advancement do you anticipate regarding these reforms if you are asking for more reforms in Iraq?
Well, I think what I would say is, you know, this has been an ongoing conversation between our government, particularly the Treasury Department and the Iraqi government.
And so I think we've seen a number of steps over the course of the past year and a half in particular.
But this has been an ongoing conversation about how Iraq can make sure that its banks are up to international standards.
And, you know, I think that there is still more work that can be done there.
You know, some of the banks have certainly operated a little bit more like an exchange house where you just are exchanging dinars for dollars.
And the banks need to be, I think, operating more like retail banks where if there's an Iraqi business person who has an idea for business that they could come and actually secure a loan.
And I think those are the kinds of activities that would both help, I think, facilitate the private sector, but I think also would help kind of show that the financial sector is modernizing.
And so, you know, the conversations that the Treasury Department has been having have really been about only ensuring really strict anti-money laundering and corruption procedures that are in line with international standards, but I think also encouraging the modernization of these banks to ensure that they are operating in a way that facilitates the private sector.
Thank you so much.
Mr. Balhaj, I have two questions.
First, this is from an audience with no name.
Would you recommend devaluing the Iraqi dinar in order to make Iraqi exports more attractive?
No, I won't get into that.
No, because again, it's very complex.
And I must say that Iraq has a very capable governor of the central bank who I'm sure would be able to look at it through a much more professional and learned view than what I can suggest.
Okay.
And with respect to diversification, in which particular actually we asked this question, but I won't just, in which particular industries, besides energy, do you think Iraq has the brightest future?
Well, look, Ahmed mentioned it.
Agriculture would be great.
Again, everything is linked, right?
I was mentioning earlier that in this eye-opening report that we published about 18 months ago, the climate change development report on Iraq, you could see what's happening with water in Iraq.
It is really an alarming, it was for us, it was kind of a red flag.
Iraq needs to do something when it comes to water management.
But Iraq is a country that traditionally had, you know, people say that it's the only country in the whole Arab world that has three things, you know, human capital, water, and fossil energy.
So there is a need to work on that.
And the corollary of it, of course, is agriculture.
It would be really important for Iraq to open up and engage there.
Second, I've always been impressed by the energy of the young people in Iraq.
And people may not necessarily see it because it's not on everybody's radar screen, but the whole startup industry in Iraq is very vibrant.
And I'm sure Ahmed can give us more on that.
But last time I was in Baghdad, not long ago, but nine months ago, anyway, before I left the bank, I visited with a number of those.
They have all of these factories.
It is moving, moving fast.
The issue there is that they are engaging in this industry without the proper legal framework.
Or rather, they are operating within a very old legal framework that is not linked to what the industry is all about.
You don't need a law to regulate startups.
You need very loose regulation because by the time you adopt the regulation, it is obsolete because things are moving so fast.
So there is a need there to do something in order to get more from these young people's energy and creativity.
That is second.
And third, if there is anything that Iraq should invest in really thoroughly and deeply, it's human capital.
It's education, education and education.
And unfortunately, that sector in Iraq is not at the level where it was, say, 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Things have gone down big time.
So there is also there something to be done for the government to really invest in those.
And this is also a place where public-private partnership can be relevant.
I want to ask Ahmed about the startup industry, but I want to hear more from you because in some interviews you mentioned that a new generation of reforms, and we were talking about this before heading here, that sometimes countries make this plateau and then they start going down.
I don't know, do you consider that Iraq is behind or it is good now?
So are you concerned that they may be behind five years from now because the world is moving in a very fast way?
Look, the real question is whether in all of our countries there is a realization that the state should be a loose regulator, you know, basically giving the big directions and letting the energy of the private sector take over.
That's the real question.
And this is a question that we have been struggling with in all of the countries in MENA, other places as well, but in all of the countries, from Morocco that is doing relatively well all the way to any other country.
So the issue is to change the mindset of government so that they can let go of a number of economic activities.
See if somebody is not finding it funny.
But let go of the economic activities and let the private sector deal with those.
One issue, and sorry I'm being long on this, but when you look precisely at what is Iraq's private sector now, and again I would love to have Ahmed's view on it.
Looking at it from where I stood, okay, so I'm not smacking the middle of it, so he knows much better.
The vast, the bulk of the contracts, the bulk of the activity is basically plugged into government, into the public sector.
So basically, my private sector would need roads projects that the government will be financing, and I'll plug myself into that.
My private sector will need, I don't know, any other big venture that the government is launching, and I'll plug myself into that.
But the creativity and launching new businesses that would be responding to new needs, whether it is in Iraq or for export, is not at the level where we would like it to be.
And maybe this is also something that could be part of the conversation that we can be having, looking at Iraq, not today, but five, ten years down the road.
How can we make sure that there is enough incentive for the private sector and enough of a platform for the private sector to feel comfortable investing, comfortable creating, and comfortable moving beyond just being plugged to whatever the state is offering?
Ahmad, talking about the private sector, where does the private sector stand now in Iraq economy?
And also, yes, and what's needed to bring them, to let them jump in?
I think, first of all, Gotopoto, I was the one who was talking last when Foid was talking about the mindset.
And the reason why I laugh is he's absolutely correct.
But the mindset that we're talking about is not only the mindset of the government, actually it's the mindset of the population.
It's not a question of only the government's role.
It's actually what people demand.
I mean, I was fortunate enough to work on the white paper for economic reform in 2020.
I worked there and I was a co-author of it.
Half the paper was written as an analysis, which is what mostly my contribution.
And the analysis was basically to bring people in to realize what is wrong.
Because what Fey said is absolutely correct.
We are very much like every part of the Middle East, we are dependent on the state.
The state plays a huge role, both as a provider of jobs as well as a nanny in terms of subsidies, social security, everything that goes around the state.
Normal plus more than that.
And we have stick-on enterprise.
So the question comes in, we're not going to get change just by putting top-down thing from the government side, but we need to have the people participating or the people believing in it.
The thing is, that would come to our private sector.
A large number of our private sector, and that's the historic private sector, the way I would put it, is yes, as Faev said, it's plugged into the government.
It either depends on government contracts for roads and what have you, or depends on sort of government handouts.
Either they have a privileged access, let's say, to energy in terms of lower gas prices or lower oil, one or the other.
And when we talked during that time with the private sector, almost every one of them was saying, oh, we need government support.
What's the support?
Oh, low-price loan.
Oh, we need lower prices in this.
So it's a private sector that is there, but it really cannot do much for the country long term because it's almost like government private sector in a way.
But where is the exciting part, and that's really where I see a huge promise, and that's one of the reasons why I moved back to live in the country in 2017 and spent most of my time, has been the younger generation.
The younger generation has learned a great deal.
They've innovated incredibly.
I mean, I started living back in Baghdad in 2017, and I remember at the time, I knew about almost all the private sector players, especially they were young startups.
Nobody in Iraq knew about.
Fast forward today, we have almost everything everybody has in terms of delivery apps, in terms of almost everything.
And there are a large number of startups set up by the youth in terms of, they almost cover almost all sectors of the area.
Some of them actually are remarkably successful.
But again, he comes into the point where he mentions where they actually operate pretty much informally.
And one of the reasons is our business environment is pretty much hostile to the private sector.
Our regulation, makes it incredibly hard and expensive for startups to actually register.
Without registering, paying taxes and doing all that kind of stuff, they're impossible to grow because without that, they can't get access to finance.
And access to finance, by the way, is challenging as well because we don't have an ecosystem of, let's say, angel investor network or mezzanine market or private equity.
But the promising part of it is the part whereby the banking sector, the reforms that are taking place since November 2020.
And by the way, we've had a number of really top quality, I will not say world class, but almost world-class banks, but they were a minority.
Now they're becoming the dominant.
And these entities are beginning to look at lending.
We have huge challenges in terms of lending, in terms of ability of databases and what have you for businesses to make educated guesses on whether people will pay, but that's happening.
So the private sector, the young ones, are incredibly promising.
We have challenges need to work for.
Rule of law, that's a crucial part.
Regulatory in Parliament needs to be streamlined significantly and other stuff.
But, you know, for me and living here, I can see the green shoots of recovery.
They're real.
Maybe a quick word on this.
And maybe since Ahmed is involved in this whole thing, it would be great if he can help.
About five, six years ago, we've been pushing for this whole new industries, startups, etc.
We've been pushing for that.
It's part of the new economy.
And one of the challenges was that, as Ahmed mentions, that the number of these startups were operating in some kind of a gray area, gray zone, not regulated by anything.
Meaning, running risks on many things, including doing things that may be against the exchange, the currency law, et cetera, et cetera.
So some bright minds decided in Tunisia to adopt a startup act.
So we went from a place where it was totally unregulated and very risky to a place where it became totally overly legiferated, forget about regulated.
Meaning that the government every year agrees to give 200 licenses for startups.
Why not 198 and why 201?
God knows.
But 200.
And with a number of conditions, how to operate, how to do, etc.
This is coming from people who don't understand how the startup landscape operates.
These are young people who need to have a very open space to create, fail.
In the law, in a number of our countries, if you, you know, bankruptcy can lead you to prison.
Whereas the whole startup industry is all about, you know, you get bankrupt and then you stand up on your feet and then you do it again and then you fail and then you and finally you succeed.
So my advice, the problem is that a number of countries around, whether it is in sub-Saharan Africa or in MENA, were looking at the Tunisian example as, well, this is what we should be doing.
Well, if anything, Kahmed, please, if you have a say, make sure that you don't follow that example.
It's terrible.
It is stifling energies and stifling creativity rather than opening more doors to young people.
To support you, basically, 100%.
I mean, I had an experience whereby we were discussing, sort of working in the private sector.
And there was this individual who worked with the government for a while who came up with a study that we needed a ministry for the private sector in order to encourage it.
And that's exactly what it is.
I end up, whenever I work for, my all always is for the government is take off your hands.
Don't help the private sector.
What you can do is change the regulations.
The regulations which pretty much makes it incredibly difficult for companies to register.
People look at Iraq's data, and you know, Iran takes, I don't know how many months and months in order to register a company.
It's ridiculously complicated, our structure.
We pretty much, sometimes we almost like, I mean, the way I look at it, almost like the flimstones.
You know, you see the flimstones riding this car whereby it's a car, but you look underneath is somebody moving his feet.
That's how a lot of what we do.
So I think we need to change those regulations, streamline them.
But also, the problem with that is that we suffer from the invented hair syndrome.
So instead of that, we can easily copy one or two rules, but remove the regulations, make them straightforward.
The private sector itself will find a way.
So individuals can have a viable business.
They're registered, they can find investors.
You cannot get invested, whichever way, unless you are registered.
But you can't be registered because of the complexity.
and so on and so on.
So I've always been working on the idea of actually take your hands off.
Don't interfere.
Go to the regulations, simplify them, copy what has succeeded elsewhere.
Don't invent the wheel and take your hands off.
Let the market take care of itself.
Thank you, Ahmad.
Mr. Balhaj and Ahmad highlighted something very important about the human capital and youth.
The new generation is considered the best investment.
What the U.S. is doing in terms of the relationship with these new generation, you know, we had past the baggage of the war and these things in Iraq, but now you have a new generation, a different relationship.
What are you doing on this?
Yeah, so, you know, I think we agree.
Obviously, Iraq has a very large young population, and we want to make sure that we are not only exposing this generation to the United States, but also seeing how we can support their ability to contribute to the Iraqi economy.
Education is a really core pillar, and I think that there is a lot that we are already doing, and certainly more that we can do to try to bring Iraqi students to the United States.
You know, there's a lot of English language programming that we're already doing and a lot of exchanges that are already happening, but certainly more that we would like to do there, including work that we've already done to support Iraqi institutions of higher education that helps expose even greater number of Iraqis to a U.S. style education.
I think there have also been programs that we've been doing that help to cultivate this culture of entrepreneurship.
And I know when I visited Iraq, I had an opportunity to speak to some of the women that have been supported by some of these U.S. programs.
Many of them, you know, part of this group of young people trying to start their own businesses.
And I think what I learned from them was many of them were doing this on the side.
They had to have a job that they did, whether they were working at a bank, working for the government, and then on the side they were pursuing their own projects, whether making jewelry, trying to sell health care products.
And they had no other way to find financing for their entrepreneurial pursuits.
I know we've also tried to find ways to facilitate some of these startups.
But I think there's certainly more that we'd like to do in this direction.
But again, I think as both Farid and Ahmed have talked about, there's a lot more that needs to be done throughout the whole system to help facilitate, I think, the entrepreneurial ideas of the young generation.
But certainly, our efforts are a drop in the bucket at really supporting the kind of education and educational opportunities that would really help promote, I think, the full capacity of Iraq's youth.
Thank you.
A question from the audience as well.
Mr. Barhaj, what are your views on Iraq's steep reduction of its foreign debts in the past year?
What are your views on Iraq's reduction of its foreign debts in the past years?
Well, clearly positive.
The issue is, as I was mentioning it earlier, what struck me is that even in times where oil was doing fine,
Iraq was running a budget deficit, which is a bit of an awkward situation when we know how much Iraq is exporting and how much of its revenues it has.
And going back again to a point I made earlier, this is because of the cost of running the state.
Whether it is defense or mainly the public sector.
So reimbursing is great.
Having less of a burden is fantastic.
What would be even better is really to reduce the cost of running the state so you can accommodate more fiscal space for investment in productive purposes, as we say at the bank.
Are there trade relationships with specific countries that you feel Iraq has underutilized?
Yeah, I mean, look, Iraq is surrounded by a number of countries that are all in difficult economic situations, whether it is Iran, whether it is Turkey, or it is Jordan.
But clearly, again, we should not have a snapshot of what's happening today because the situation in the whole region is very volatile.
What I'd look at is really invest in what Iraq and its engagement with its own neighborhood would look like in 10, 15 years.
Meaning, how can Iraq invest today in terms of infra, to open ways, in terms of industries that would allow it to start looking at ways to export and compete with what's happening in other countries?
And again, in terms of human capital, kind of educate its young generation so that they themselves can start competing on the larger market of knowledge and creativity.
So Iraq is, I don't know how many thousand years old.
I believe that there should be a, Ahmed was mentioning a white paper earlier, there should be a clear 10, 15, 20 years down the road view of what Iraq should be and not just wait until 2050 in order to look at it, but because it is planned by 2050, start realizing it right now.
And again, time is pressing.
The region is in a very awkward situation as we speak.
But again, this is a region that was able to weather many, many shocks.
So as an Iraqi decision maker, They should, again, plan for the next 10, 15, 20 years and start investing to get to those objectives right now.
Again, opening up more doors for the private sector, incentivizing more, and education, education, education.
This is what Iraq should be looking like in 20 years.
A hub for more investment, a hub for more creativity, and a hub where young people would be able to really work in Iraq, work outside, but Iraqi young people would be able to get their country's message, their country's promise within Iraq and outside of Iraq.
We have a number of countries who've been doing that with way less capacity and way less wealth.
So there is a way of doing it.
And frankly, if I were to bet on a country in that region, I would bet on Iraq.
It has it all.
You need to bring about the right kind of looking forward or forward-looking policies.
Mr. Bilha, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, maybe I could just add on to the comments about the region.
I mean, I think obviously from a U.S. perspective, we're very interested in expanding our own economic and energy ties, but I think it's also important for Iraq to continue to integrate regionally economically as well.
And that means beyond economic integration with Iran, economic integration with the rest of the Gulf.
And certainly there's a lot of expertise and finance companies that could really bring a lot to bear in the Iraqi economy as well.
And so from our perspective, an Iraq that's well integrated in the region is also more stable and stronger.
Thank you for mentioning that the integration.
I want to ask you, Ahmed, since we don't have anyone from the Iraqi government about the development road with Turkey, where things stand now?
What can this offer to the Iraqi economy, to specific industry, to the Iraqi people?
Ahmad?
This is a very, very tough one.
I'm not a government spoken, so I'll be speaking sort of my own line on this.
The thing is, the development project is very much in its early stages.
I think there are a lot of hopes on it.
The way I would look at it is somewhat differently than the official view and that what most people look at it.
The important part of it, if we can manage to get it off the ground and realistically and move forward with it, is actually to integrate our own country with ourselves.
We, as a consequence of years of underinvestments, of years of conflicts, we aren't really well connected in any part, even the more stable part of Iraq.
If you look at the road between Erdil and Sleimaniye, it's just a single road.
And the rest of Iraq is like that.
We have some major highways, you know, connecting Baghdad to Basra, Baghdad, to Jordan, but we need to have a massive rebuilding of our infrastructure.
So I think for me, the way I look at it there, if that happens as part of the development road, that is the biggest thing for us in a way, because it enables inter-country trade.
I think the other part of it is, instead of looking at it in my mind, as a replacement of this or that, it's something that can fit in with existing infrastructure.
Because one of the things that we do wrong in the Arab world, we seem to either want to do something at the expense of the others.
So we want to have more than one financial center.
We want to have more than one major airline.
We want to have more than one road.
But we have, in a sense, when it comes to this, we have the incredible work done in the UAE in terms of their own logistics and Jabar Ali and what happened.
The sort of Egypt with its Suez Canal.
I think us, we can fit within that in a way, work.
When you talk of regional integration, we don't need to regionally compete on that, but we can actually work on how we can integrate that.
I think that is one thing.
The other thing, which is really important, is we need to integrate with our economy, but we don't need to become an import market.
We only need to import everything else.
So we need to find a formula.
And one of it is, the way I sort of partly see it is the GCC.
The GCC is incredibly well developed.
It is people poor in the sense of numbers, not in terms of quality of people, but actually capital rich.
It hasn't got a huge way to grow in terms of its own economies.
It's almost as developed as the developed world in a way.
On the other hand, next door, Iraq is a country of 45 million people plus growing.
That can become, that can absorb their capital.
So in a sense, of they move to invest in Iraq, it works for them in terms of growing their business, but also works for us.
So in my mind, I want to see regional integration, but in terms of complementing each other as opposed to competing with each other.
I remember years ago reading Agro-IMF report on terms of regional integration.
It never seemed.
Almost all the Arab countries trade more with the outside world than they trade with each other.
Partly is actually similar less sub-dependent state, we import every thing.
So it's really important.
We can break that.
And I think we need the help of our international partners to do that because it's not only Iraq, it has to be a regional sort of get together in a sense.
Thank you, Ahmad.
I will give you the chance for closing remarks, but I have one more question, Mr. Balhaj, because we were discussing that and you were talking about 10 years from now, 15 years from now.
As a person, I always think whatever I decide or plan for the future, I don't have to forget the fundamentals.
And this is what you told me when I was asking you if we are far behind in the MENA region and if Iraq is far behind because the world is moving towards AI era where things would be totally different.
So is Iraq and even the MENA region is behind?
And what do we have to take in consideration when it comes to the fundamentals?
The fundamentals for all of our countries can be encapsulated in two themes.
One is governance and transparency and rule of law.
That's fundamental.
And the other one is empowering the people.
Making sure that, you know, we talk about AI, et cetera, et cetera.
All of this is great, but these are superstructures.
But the bottom line is, if you don't have people, if your own people don't trust you, if your own people don't own whatever vision you have, then you can have all the chat GBT of the world.
It's not going to help.
And if you don't have a system of governance that allows for dialogue, that allows for that dialogue that brings about creativity, brings about new ideas, et cetera.
If you don't have that, and if you don't have Accountability, you know, if you don't have all that, then all the rest, frankly, won't take you anywhere.
And this is why, you know, when you walk without going into any particular country, but sometimes you see, you know, nice snippets of gimmicks, whatever, you know, nice new toys that people play with, which is great.
But then when you scrap just a little bit the surface, you find out that what makes a country, what makes a community hang together and share the same vision and the same way forward is not there.
Because those who are governing are not able to bring about enough cohesion and to bring about enough ownership of the policies that they are advocating.
And one last point.
You know, there is this fashion in a number of our countries to have visions.
So you have the vision 2030, 50, 60, 70.
I even want one guy who was talking about a vision 2070 or something, something very, very, very long.
Making sure that by the time that vision happens, he's not there anymore.
So there is no accountability.
But those visions become kind of an alibi for going slow.
Because it's in 25 years.
So we have time.
When in fact, because it is in 25 years, and because if it is urgent, you need to start today in order to get to that particular vision.
And frankly, I've been confronted to a number of these big schemes, etc., over the years.
Well, what can I say?
I'm less than impressed with the pace and the way those visions are being actually implemented.
So that's why I was saying earlier, you need to have not only that vision and the tools for that vision, but also you need to make sure that that vision is fully, 100% owned by the people who are supposed to be profiting from it in a way, the people that that vision is supposed to be addressing.
And for that, there is a lot to do in terms of having a political dynamic that would make sure that everybody participates and participates fully and participates substantively on these choices.
Thank you so much.
Mr. Taylor, the floor is yours.
What do you have, Eskimo?
Sure.
Well, I think I would go back to what I said at the beginning.
You know, the U.S. wants to see an Iraq that is secure, it's stable, and it's prosperous.
And we remain focused on making sure that we are trying to develop a partnership that's well balanced, a partnership that includes stronger economic and energy ties.
And I think that's a vision that is shared not only with the US government, but with the Iraqi government as well.
I think that the more that we can do as governments, the more that we can involve the private sector, I think that's to the benefit of both of our countries.
And while certainly security is an important element that underlies Iraq's future and its ability to prosper, I think we're almost looking at a stool, and we can't have a one-legged stool that's only built on security.
Iraq cannot live in full security and sovereignty unless there's an ability for the Iraqi people to work and thrive and have an opportunity to have meaningful economic opportunities.
Thank you so much, Mr. Wilhaj.
I thought I'll give you.
My last word.
Again, Iraq, as I mentioned earlier, has huge potential, clearly, and that whole potential hangs on that need for its governance to be able to outline a very clear way forward.
And that way forward is, you mentioned security, of course it's important and it's a very volatile region.
But in order for that volatility to be tempered a bit, you need to bring about a dynamic that would allow for people to see, you know, promise, to see something, you know, down the road, to see that they can actually achieve what they are longing to achieve.
That is, you know, prosperity and for a country like Iraq that is so wealthy for poverty, because unfortunately there is that phenomena in Iraq, you know, to be managed much better and for the wealth to be managed much better and for the Iraq from south to north to be managed much better in a way.
So that, you know, from Erbir to Basra, as I mentioned earlier, you know, the country is one and the country is a prosperous one.
It's very important.
Ahmad, I know you are not the spokesperson of the Iraqi government, but thank God for that.
So your closing remarks.
Well, look, in terms of Hakir, you mentioned the vision and so forth, I sort of agree 100% on what Farid.
I never could buy the idea of vision, mission, and all that kind of stuff.
I remember the same discussion we had when you were working on the white paper.
Almost everybody was coming up with what do we want to see Iraq in five years' time?
What do we want?
I actually was a lot more modest in a sense in terms of my view.
Or I believe I didn't have the arrogance of actually knowing what I think the country needs.
But I thought that instead of looking at that question, is what we need to do is to look at the enablers.
So in terms of the economy, it's the infrastructure when it comes to roads, hospitals, the usual stuff, the infrastructure.
Education is crucial for us.
And that's a long-term thing.
Then the state's role, the state's role in terms of at least ensuring the equal applicability of law, i.e. the rule of law, the challenges when it comes to that, enforcing contracts.
I thought if we work on these, then the market would take care of itself.
And that's exactly what happens in every part of the world.
The issue, I think, and again, it comes to a point that Farid mentioned, which is basically trust.
The problem we all have is we have a broken social contract.
Almost all the MENA countries, and I don't mean, you know, maybe I shouldn't be speaking on every other country, but I think at least for us in Iraq, the social contract is broken.
The change does not really have to come from the government.
You can't only focus on the government.
The government is pretty much what the people would want, in a sense.
The challenge is us as population, the population doesn't trust the state.
Almost all the visions that you see coming up, one of the reasons that they don't fail is that they are given from top down.
They're not given bottom-up, in a sense.
You have to have some sort of a dialogue.
I think this is the challenge we have in Iraq: actually managing their social contract because most of our population we need here, most Iraqis and not the younger generation, because I think really that is where the hope of the country is.
The younger generation has a very different attitude.
But my generation and younger, most of it, is the view of we need the state to do this for us.
So, in a sense, they're more subject than citizens.
That's what we need.
That's the challenge that we all face as Iraqis as we need.
I think it's resolved, you know, can be resolved, but we need to start the dialogue.
Once that happens, then we can look at enablers and then the country will take care of itself.
Thank you so much, Ahmed.
I think it's not at the end.
Thank you for that.
It's not just saying thank you for that.
I appreciate that.
It's not only in Iraq, in Lebanon also, we have a problem in the social contract, and many look at the government as an ATM.
Mr. Belhaj knows that very well, as an ATM, literally.
And I can't agree with you both on the vision, the vision fashion, because sometimes if you have tools to measure how you are performing and how you are progressing and what impact this vision has on your population, it can be good.
Can be can be good.
But also, I want to follow up on what you said regarding the promise and the security.
Yes, the security is very important, but we were told that you have to have security, then you have prosperity.
Actually, also, it works the other way around.
The prosperity and the promise for the people, then they will also help with the security.
It can be applicable both ways.
Anyway, thank you so much.
We learned a lot about this conversation and we learned a lot about Iraq challenges and Iraq opportunities.
I'm hopeful that the next conversation will be in a better situation, in better circumstances when it comes to Iraq or Lebanon or the MENA region.
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for coming in.
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Coming up this morning, we'll talk about the week ahead in Congress, including leadership elections with reporters Emily Brooks of The Hill and Stephen Newcomb of Axios.
Also, Philip Wegman, White House reporter for Real Clear Politics on the role of the Heritage Foundation in Project 2025 in the incoming Trump administration.
C-SPAN's Washington Journal.
Join the conversation live at 7 Eastern this morning on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile app, or online at cspan.org.
The house will be in order.
This year, C-SPAN celebrates 45 years of covering Congress like no other.
Since 1979, we've been your primary source for Capitol Hill, providing balanced, unfiltered coverage of government, taking you to where the policy is debated and decided, all with the support of America's cable companies.
C-SPAN, 45 years in counting, powered by cable.
Up next, journalists discuss fair media coverage of the Israel-Hamas war and whether the plight of the Palestinians is getting sufficient attention.
Participants also critique the Biden administration's support for Israel.