Conspirituality - Brief: Women 3, Manosphere 0
Aired: 2026-05-02
Duration: 27:15


=== Hyperfixed: Solving Listener Problems (08:45) ===

[00:00:00]  Hi, I'm Alex Goldman.
[00:00:02]  You may know me as the host of Reply All, but I'm done with that.
[00:00:06]  I'm doing something else now.
[00:00:08]  I've started a new podcast called Hyperfixed.
[00:00:11]  On every episode of Hyperfixed, listeners write in with their problems, and I try to solve them.
[00:00:15]  Some massive and life altering, and some so minuscule it'll boggle your mind.
[00:00:20]  No matter the problem, no matter the size, I'm here for you.
[00:00:23]  That's Hyperfixed, the new podcast from Radiotopia.
[00:00:26]  Find it wherever you listen to podcasts or at hyperfixedpod.com.
[00:00:36]  Learning English is hard.
[00:00:38]  That's why I make Easy Stories in English, where you can have fun while you learn.
[00:00:44]  You can listen to stories full of action, romance, and mystery.
[00:00:51]  Each episode, I tell stories for beginner, intermediate, and advanced learners, and there's a story for every mood.
[00:00:59]  Whether you want something to wake you up or relax before going to bed, Easy Stories in English is the podcast for you.
[00:01:10]  I just think honestly, you're too stupid to understand them.
[00:01:13]  Your wife has three baby daddies and has been married twice before.
[00:01:16]  And you, under your religion, you lick sniz.
[00:01:19]  Under your religion.
[00:01:21]  You lick sniz.
[00:01:22]  What is that?
[00:01:22]  You're a fucking don't talk about my wife, you stupid.
[00:01:25]  Shut your fucking mouth.
[00:01:27]  It's because I'm better than you, Charlie.
[00:01:28]  No, it's because you're embarrassed and you know that the traditional values that you try to sell people on are bullshit because you are not a traditional man.
[00:01:35]  Shut up.
[00:01:35]  That's a Twitch streamer who goes by Enemy Charlie.
[00:01:39]  Absolutely owning Manosphere Debate King Andrew Wilson on the Absolutely Awful Whatever podcast.
[00:01:48]  She gets him so triggered that all he can do is reactively resort to slurs about her sexuality and, as you may have caught right at the end, call her Chuck.
[00:01:59]  Neither of which, as it turns out, Enemy Charlie, who identifies as non binary, minds at all.
[00:02:06]  To truly convey the culture war reasons why this is so delicious, I'll need to give you a little background.
[00:02:13]  And then we'll come back to today's heroines.
[00:02:17]  They're called Enemy Charlie, Kyla Turner, who goes by not so erudite, and Drianna Sixto.
[00:02:25]  Now, not to worry if you don't recognize any of those idiosyncratic online names.
[00:02:31]  It's all going to make sense as we continue.
[00:02:34]  In a world of men where alpha debate bros browbeat insecure betas and deride token female guests who are sex workers while perhaps not realizing they're actually helping promote their.
[00:02:47]  OnlyFans accounts, three steely eyed women have snuck in, decoded the Matrix, and fought their way up to face the ultimate boss, a chain smoking, greasy haired, foul mouthed Christian nationalist named Andrew Wilson.
[00:03:05]  Today, I want to feature and celebrate the insurgent grit and intelligence of these particular three women who've gone into a hostile environment and not only held their own, but handed this smug prick and his minions.
[00:03:20]  Their asses in ways both undeniable and elegant.
[00:03:26]  In an arena set up to clip farm and drive clicks by normalizing hateful, anti feminist, homophobic, performatively Christian rhetoric, it may not be possible to drive a stake completely through the heart of misogyny's zombie internet dragon, but owning or destroying the main characters at their game in front of their own fans sure does taste sweet.
[00:03:52]  And who knows, perhaps it makes some of the younger and more impressionable viewers think twice about the slop they're being fed.
[00:04:01]  I'm Julian Walker, and you're listening to a Conspirituality Podcast brief titled Women 3, Manosphere Zero.
[00:04:09]  And this one is all guilty pleasure, so please enjoy.
[00:04:14]  Here at Conspirituality, we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience, and authoritarian extremism.
[00:04:23]  You can mostly find us on Instagram.
[00:04:26]  At Conspirituality Pod, if you want to find us on social media.
[00:04:29]  And that's a handle we also use on threads as well.
[00:04:32]  And we're all individually on Blue Sky, we always say, but I don't really do anything there.
[00:04:37]  But that aside, more importantly, you can access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on Patreon, or just get our bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions.
[00:04:50]  As independent media creators, we really do appreciate your support.
[00:04:59]  The Manosphere, as you probably know, is a really nasty place.
[00:05:03]  We recently covered.
[00:05:05]  Louis Theroux's somewhat odd Netflix documentary that followed a few toxic men who've been getting rich preaching the gospel of misogyny and conspicuous wealth to young, lonely men with poor social skills, because that is the audience.
[00:05:21]  Be like me, they seem to say on endless live streams showing off their physiques, their flashy sports cars and watches from soulless international Airbnbs, while behind the scenes their personal lives are empty.
[00:05:37]  And transactional, and some are even trying to avoid criminal prosecution for their dodgy scams and mistreatment of women.
[00:05:45]  We also have looked at the flavor of the month looks maxer.
[00:05:50]  Remember that 20 year old Braden Peters, who goes by clavicular online and is famous for doing things like bashing his own face on camera to try to get the bones to look more chiseled, or admitting to using methamphetamine to stay lean.
[00:06:06]  And then a few weeks later, After we covered him, he was hospitalized for a drug overdose after live streaming from a nightclub.
[00:06:13]  His main complaint about that was he found that the oxygen mask at the hospital left marks on his face after they'd saved his life and sent him home.
[00:06:25]  Now, in all this anthropological classification system, the taxonomy, the guys in the Louis Theroux Manosphere documentary are basically trying to follow in the footsteps of alleged sex trafficker Andrew Tate.
[00:06:39]  Who got rich telling teenage boys they too could drive Bugatis, smoke cigars, and wear ugly, stretchy material suits that are two sizes too small for some reason by being insufferably domineering and tricking women into becoming sex workers by pretending to fall in love with them and then isolating them from their loved ones to gain complete control over their bodies and minds?
[00:07:02]  So he's the ultimate boss of being a pimp in the age of online courses and social media marketing.
[00:07:09]  There's another layer of the manosphere which we're opening a window on today.
[00:07:15]  Here, podcasters and YouTubers host debate panels that drive home talking points about dating based on bad evolutionary psychology to their audiences again and again.
[00:07:28]  The setup is predictable.
[00:07:31]  It's usually three or four of these smug, self appointed alphas who then host a rotating cast of college aged, attractive girls who are either Polyamorous or sex positive feminists or OnlyFans models or just straight up porn stars.
[00:07:48]  The point of these lengthy, live streamed, incredibly popular discussions is for the men to demonstrate how money hungry, unintelligent, morally confused, and just plain slutty all of these women are, so as to communicate to their audience that being a manipulative, cold hearted, misogynist bastard is justified.
[00:08:09]  Because, eh, look at these women.
[00:08:12]  A prominent topic of debate is the concept of body count, meaning how many sexual partners a woman has had, because it's always about how many sexual partners the woman has had, because that body count being higher reduces their dating value, supposedly, even as they cynically try to climb the ranks of so called high value men who make a lot of money and wield invulnerable power.
[00:08:39]  And sometimes the men advocate for a one sided form of monogamy in which they get.

=== Agrippa's Trilemma Explained (10:19) ===

[00:08:46]  To be the sluds while their submissive wives or girlfriends clean the house and wait on them hand and foot.
[00:08:54]  But sometimes, and sometimes even on the same podcast, as with this guy, Andrew Wilson, the woman hatred is served up with a big helping of Christian righteousness because he not only presents himself as a champion of rational philosophical argument who literally sells courses online about how to win debates, he also slices and dices scripture.
[00:09:18]  To show how really God is on his side.
[00:09:21]  Now, if you've not come across Andrew Wilson, I am happy for you because it is my job to pay attention to toxic people, and so therefore I am more familiar with him than I would like to be.
[00:09:33]  He's around 40 years old, he has 339,000 YouTube followers.
[00:09:38]  His top videos there are over half a million, or the top three ones.
[00:09:43]  He has 139,000 followers on Twitter, and his YouTube channel is called The Crucible.
[00:09:50]  He appeared On Joe Rogan, of course, at the end of January this year.
[00:09:55]  And he said there that he was a former gunsmith and a former robotics engineer.
[00:10:01]  I can't really find any background on him other than this interview.
[00:10:05]  He says he was laid off from his robotics job during COVID and then gained a following by debating people on his YouTube channel, The Crucible.
[00:10:15]  He mostly in the early days debated young liberal streamers who had.
[00:10:21]  Much bigger audiences than he did at that time, but then very quickly found his way into being a regular on the aforementioned Whatever podcast, which is where all of our clips for today are coming from.
[00:10:36]  First, here's a more complete version of that Enemy Charlie clip.
[00:10:42]  Again, she's a Twitch streamer with 37,000 followers.
[00:10:46]  She has an Instagram account with 143,000 followers.
[00:10:50]  But more importantly, Anime Charlie has a master's degree in literature, and online she mostly talks about gaming and fantasy fiction.
[00:10:59]  And just a quick content warning here.
[00:11:02]  Now that we're into the episode, I have left in all of Andrew Wilson's curse words, which you may have heard were kind of blanked out in the earlier clip.
[00:11:11]  I've left them in this time as he's melting down.
[00:11:13]  So, you know, shield the children's ears or skip ahead if you're offended by that kind of language.
[00:11:19]  I'll try to rephrase this.
[00:11:21]  I'm going to reframe, and I'm just going to be totally honest with you.
[00:11:24]  I will never be able to.
[00:11:26]  Convince you of my worldview.
[00:11:27]  You won't.
[00:11:28]  I know.
[00:11:29]  But the reason is not because I'm not a great orator or I don't make good points or I haven't said things which should be compelling to a person.
[00:11:37]  But Charlie, I just think honestly you're too fucking stupid to understand them.
[00:11:41]  So, Andrew, can I tell you on my worldview?
[00:11:44]  Yes.
[00:11:45]  Your wife has three baby daddies and has been married twice before.
[00:11:48]  And you, under your religion, you lick sniz.
[00:11:51]  Under your religion.
[00:11:53]  You lick sniz.
[00:11:54]  What is that?
[00:11:54]  You're a fucking dyke.
[00:11:55]  Don't talk shit about my wife, you stupid bitch.
[00:11:57]  Shut your fucking mouth.
[00:11:58]  Shut your stupid bitch mouth.
[00:12:00]  Your wife with the three babies?
[00:12:01]  What did I just say?
[00:12:02]  Dyke?
[00:12:03]  Sorry, Dyke.
[00:12:04]  Is she morally inconsequential in comparison to your ditch licking?
[00:12:08]  Do the men that you try to.
[00:12:10]  Do the women that you try to.
[00:12:12]  Do the women that you try to.
[00:12:14]  You know, Charlie, do they know that you're five years older?
[00:12:19]  Did I bring any of your family into anything?
[00:12:21]  Did I say anything about your family being stupid, Charlie?
[00:12:25]  It's because I'm better than you, Charlie.
[00:12:27]  No, it's because you're embarrassed and you know that the traditional values that you try to sell people on are bullshit because you are not a traditional man.
[00:12:33]  Chuck, let's go through it.
[00:12:34]  You are not a traditional man.
[00:12:35]  Let's go through it, Chuck.
[00:12:36]  I just love it.
[00:12:37]  No, it's because you're embarrassed and you know that the traditional values you try to sell people on are bullshit.
[00:12:44]  Because you are not a traditional man.
[00:12:47]  It's so simple, it's even obvious, but it takes a special kind of resolve to face that kind of onslaught live on the mic and just deliver the truth in response that the person is really trying to avoid facing.
[00:13:03]  Excellent work, Charlie.
[00:13:05]  He had nothing for you.
[00:13:06]  And that's why that clip is really viral.
[00:13:09]  Let's shift now to an area where Andrew Wilson styles himself as a real expert.
[00:13:16]  Here he's debating Kyla Turner, who goes by not so erudite.
[00:13:22]  She has about 18,000 followers on Twitch and 109,000 on Instagram.
[00:13:27]  She's a certified substance abuse counselor who creates content about psychology and mental health and politics.
[00:13:35]  She used to co host a podcast with massive political streamer Destiny.
[00:13:40]  What I love about this one is that here she is on the show where this pretentious pseudo intellectual always assumes he has the superior knowledge.
[00:13:51]  And debate skills, but he doesn't know what he's gotten himself into.
[00:13:55]  There's no or.
[00:13:56]  Yes.
[00:13:57]  There's no or.
[00:13:58]  Well, the or here is the more reasonable assumption.
[00:14:01]  The founding fathers wrote in an explicit separation of church and state at a federal level because that's what they wanted.
[00:14:07]  They understood that when you blend church and state, it corrupts not only the nation, which they had just separated from a corrupted nation.
[00:14:15]  No, that's not what happened.
[00:14:17]  What happened, first of all, they had not just done this.
[00:14:20]  Okay.
[00:14:21]  They had the Articles of Confederation first.
[00:14:24]  That happened first.
[00:14:26]  And what happened is they were just not able to govern because each state was like a mini kingdom and they wanted their own currency and their own militaries.
[00:14:35]  Okay.
[00:14:36]  And so, for like the common defense, they wanted to have some sort of federalism in order to do this.
[00:14:41]  Did they unify under one currency?
[00:14:44]  That was one of the primary reasons they wanted unification, because of a currency.
[00:14:47]  So, why couldn't they unify under one religion?
[00:14:50]  Because what you wanted was you wanted to have trade between each state.
[00:14:55]  But when you're talking about their religions, this was pan Protestant.
[00:15:00]  So there was no unification there.
[00:15:02]  So they were willing to unify on a whole bunch of stuff, but they just couldn't, for the life of them, figure out a way to unify the religions because they actually did want the church and state to be blended.
[00:15:11]  They wanted the church to have weight and say on statecraft.
[00:15:16]  They just couldn't write it in at the federal level, so they just let state go.
[00:15:18]  Well, who's the church?
[00:15:19]  All right, so that's a little bit of a fragment, but you get the picture.
[00:15:23]  He thinks he's the expert, and she starts to really deconstruct his argument.
[00:15:27]  We'll get into a little more depth here.
[00:15:30]  With Kyla, because Andrew Wilson doesn't learn his lesson.
[00:15:34]  He tries here to go at Kyla's grasp of logic and epistemology.
[00:15:40]  And her firmness and clarity in the clip you're about to hear is marvelous.
[00:15:45]  I want you to note how she just refuses every attempt he makes to dominate her.
[00:15:51]  And she turns the tables on him right from the start and then keeps it that way.
[00:15:56]  In classic Christian apologist debate style, he's trying to undermine the Basis for her moral reasoning, but he's out of his depth.
[00:16:05]  And by the way, she actually is a Christian and goes on a lot of Christian podcasts.
[00:16:09]  She's a progressive Christian.
[00:16:11]  A quick note she's going to reference Agrippa's trilemma.
[00:16:16]  This is a concept attributed to a first century Greek philosopher who pointed out that if we push down far enough on any argument at their foundations, many of our knowledge claims always require certain intuitive assumptions.
[00:16:32]  So the trilemma part refers to the three versions he identified of this problem.
[00:16:38]  One is infinite regress, meaning, Every justification we make actually requires another justification and it just keeps going.
[00:16:46]  Or circular reasoning in which we argue for a truth while not realizing that our argument already assumes its own truth.
[00:16:55]  It's like saying you must obey the law because it is illegal not to do so, right?
[00:17:00]  And his third one, his third observation in the trilemma, is just that we often have at bottom some straightforward dogmatic assertion in which we end up saying the foundational claim is just self evidently true.
[00:17:13]  It just What now is the argument for me to impose Christian nationalism?
[00:17:17]  Let me ask that to you.
[00:17:18]  Because I want to.
[00:17:19]  You're just assuming that.
[00:17:20]  Because I want to.
[00:17:20]  Yeah, but you're just assuming.
[00:17:21]  It's a tautology, so I'm supposed to.
[00:17:23]  That doesn't make it work.
[00:17:24]  Exactly.
[00:17:24]  So it's fine to do.
[00:17:25]  So why are you saying that it's an ought statement?
[00:17:27]  Because I want it to be.
[00:17:28]  Because I assume it.
[00:17:28]  Okay, so your system is wholly unjustifiable.
[00:17:31]  There's no reason why Christians should do it.
[00:17:32]  They're just like moving on vibrationalism.
[00:17:33]  And there's no reason for Christians not to do it.
[00:17:36]  Okay.
[00:17:36]  I'm a foundationalist, so I believe in.
[00:17:38]  Yeah, but you assume your foundations can't be justified.
[00:17:40]  Everyone assumes foundations.
[00:17:42]  You've already granted me this.
[00:17:42]  Then if that's the case, then who cares what your foundation is?
[00:17:45]  Because in philosophy, we typically ground foundations to some extent.
[00:17:48]  We don't do anything.
[00:17:48]  Philosophy.
[00:17:49]  I don't know what you do with philosophy, but.
[00:17:51]  Okay, Mr. Philosopher.
[00:17:52]  In any level of respected philosophy, we assume.
[00:17:55]  Which respected philosophers are you referencing?
[00:17:57]  Aristotle, Plato, Socrates.
[00:17:59]  Socrates assumed that you couldn't justify anything?
[00:18:03]  Well, sort of.
[00:18:04]  What we do is we grant assumptions because we understand that at a foundational level, they're all unjustified.
[00:18:09]  All you did was destroy the possibility for there to be objective morality.
[00:18:13]  That's it.
[00:18:13]  Nope.
[00:18:14]  I can't tell if you genuinely don't understand Agrippa's trilemma, maybe, or if you're being bad faith.
[00:18:18]  Those are the only two possibilities.
[00:18:19]  How am I being bad faith when you pause an argument and I ask you about it?
[00:18:22]  Relax.
[00:18:23]  Andrew, I said there's two options.
[00:18:24]  You genuinely don't understand, or you're being bad faith.
[00:18:27]  Or there's a third option, which is maybe you don't understand.
[00:18:30]  I do understand how dilemmas work in philosophy.
[00:18:32]  Okay, then let's.
[00:18:33]  Agrippa's trilemma.
[00:18:34]  It's like a trial reply.
[00:18:35]  Yeah, I just want to make sure.
[00:18:37]  It's a philosophical test of logic.
[00:18:38]  Okay, I got it.
[00:18:39]  So when you're talking about Agrippa's trilemma, would you have any criticisms for this argument that you're making?
[00:18:46]  I can't solve it.
[00:18:47]  That's the point of the dilemma.
[00:18:48]  Okay, so when you say that, when I ask you, is Agrippa's trilemma true?
[00:18:54]  I can't solve it.
[00:18:55]  Is it true though?
[00:18:56]  Is the trolley problem true?
[00:18:57]  Is Euthyphro's dilemma true?
[00:18:59]  What are we doing right now?
[00:19:00]  Yeah, I think philosophically you can say that the conclusion is true or false.

=== Democracy, Enlightenment, and Voting (08:09) ===

[00:19:05]  No, no, no.
[00:19:06]  Agrippa's trilemma isn't a conclusion.
[00:19:07]  Agrippa's trilemma is a problem.
[00:19:09]  It's a philosophical problem.
[00:19:10]  Is Euthyphro's dilemma true?
[00:19:11]  Wait, wait, wait.
[00:19:12]  I'm not talking about them.
[00:19:12]  I'm talking about Agrippa's trilemma.
[00:19:13]  Yeah, it's a problem in the same way that Euthyphro's dilemma is.
[00:19:17]  Okay.
[00:19:17]  He's so flustered and she is so unintimidated.
[00:19:22]  I think what I love about all three of these women and why I wanted to share these clips with you today is that they are.
[00:19:28]  Unwilling to fold in the face of male bullying.
[00:19:33]  And it's really admirable.
[00:19:35]  So I bow down to not so erudite Kyla Turner.
[00:19:41]  Like so many other Christian nationalists, Andrew Wilson often defends his belief that women should not have the vote by saying, well, the founding fathers didn't give them the vote.
[00:19:53]  And there is an argument that women depend on men for protection to maintain ownership of land.
[00:19:59]  And so, only men should have the vote because women couldn't do that for themselves.
[00:20:05]  But I noticed something really funny here, which is that on this whatever podcast, in the face of the kinds of debate opponents that we've been covering so far, he got so owned, he got so destroyed in these cases that he ended up calling his wife in to try to fight back against the mean feminists.
[00:20:24]  And of course, this is somewhat opportunistic and hypocritical because, as much as these guys, Think a woman belongs in the kitchen.
[00:20:33]  And as much as the female conservative boss babes that we've talked about on this podcast build their careers, preaching the gospel of raising kids and making a home instead of having a career, getting his wife on camera is likely good for their family bank balance.
[00:20:51]  So her name is Rachel Wilson.
[00:20:53]  And the clip I've selected for you features someone who is actually a fellow conservative.
[00:20:59]  Her name is Drianna Sixto.
[00:21:02]  Unusual name, Drianna Sixto.
[00:21:04]  She's a former media spokesperson for Turning Point USA, but she's made a name for herself as a conservative feminist going up against these manosphere schmucks.
[00:21:16]  She has 43,000 followers on Instagram and currently works for the nonprofit Lincoln Media Foundation, not the Never Trump Lincoln Project.
[00:21:27]  This is something else, the Lincoln Media Foundation.
[00:21:29]  If women didn't vote anymore, we would never have another Democrat.
[00:21:33]  President, we would never have another Democrat Senate, and we would never have another Democrat Congress.
[00:21:38]  You're right.
[00:21:39]  You're right, Rachel.
[00:21:40]  You're absolutely right.
[00:21:41]  You're making the argument that because people disagree with my personal political beliefs, I should take away their right to vote.
[00:21:49]  I'd like to, and I disagree with that.
[00:21:51]  I think that the way to get people to vote how I want them to is by arguing that my ideas are better than somebody else's, not taking away somebody else's right to vote.
[00:22:02]  Because then you'd have to make the argument, Rachel.
[00:22:04]  That we should take away black people's rights to vote, or that would be a good thing.
[00:22:08]  Why would we have to say that?
[00:22:09]  Let me finish.
[00:22:10]  Because black people vote 80 to 90% Democrat in every presidential election, which is a racist, obviously, position to have.
[00:22:20]  You don't tell people, and your ultimate solution isn't to stop people from voting because you don't get what you want.
[00:22:29]  It's making arguments to convince said people that your ideas are better.
[00:22:35]  I don't give a crap about democracy.
[00:22:37]  I don't like the.
[00:22:38]  I'm glad I clarified that.
[00:22:39]  Yeah, I don't.
[00:22:40]  I'm not a democracy enjoyer.
[00:22:43]  I know that you.
[00:22:43]  Are you Iran?
[00:22:44]  I know you think that's cute.
[00:22:45]  No.
[00:22:46]  Okay, so I know she's not technically on our side, but listen, principled conservatives espousing democratic values are always a welcome sight to me.
[00:22:58]  Her logic is unassailable here, and it gets Rachel Wilson to go mask off.
[00:23:05]  And acknowledge that she is not actually a democracy enjoyer.
[00:23:11]  So, for this clip at least, I can't vouch for the rest of her views.
[00:23:15]  10 out of 10 for Drianna Sixto.
[00:23:20]  I'm going to end here with some comments about democracy and enlightenment values, an extension of which is the value of reason, evidence, and open debate as part of free speech.
[00:23:33]  This is coming from Natalie Wynne.
[00:23:35]  Do you know her?
[00:23:36]  She's the acclaimed left wing.
[00:23:38]  Transgender video essayist on YouTube.
[00:23:42]  She's known there as ContraPoints.
[00:23:44]  She's truly an artist and an intellectual.
[00:23:47]  I highly recommend her stuff.
[00:23:49]  Now, this is ContraPoints or Natalie Wynn on the brilliant Doom Scroll podcast, which I also highly recommend.
[00:23:56]  It's hosted by Joshua Citarella, who is himself an acclaimed artist and also an expert and author on the topic of online political movements.
[00:24:07]  He's been covering this since early on, and his knowledge of it is really encyclopedic.
[00:24:12]  I'm going to let ContraPoints have the last word for today, but you can think of this as also being a bit of a teaser for my bonus episode, not this Monday, but next week.
[00:24:23]  Which will break down this particular interview between Josh Citarella and ContraPoints for the Doom Scroll podcast and discuss the current state of left of center American politics.
[00:24:37]  So I'll see you next time.
[00:24:39]  And here's ContraPoints.
[00:24:41]  What I like about democracy, there's a lot of things to hate about democracy.
[00:24:47]  I feel like I've been encountering a lot of those lately, but I still do like democracy.
[00:24:51]  And one thing I like about it is that it provides a means.
[00:24:54]  To change society that doesn't involve like a massive amount of bloodshed.
[00:24:58]  It avoids violence.
[00:24:59]  Yeah.
[00:25:00]  And I mean, even though it is still upheld by, you know, the order is maintained by police on the inside and the army on the outside.
[00:25:06]  Sweden has police too.
[00:25:07]  Yeah.
[00:25:08]  Everyone has police.
[00:25:09]  Like, I think that it's the less violent way of conducting things, right?
[00:25:19]  And for a time, it was possible to change the direction of American government anyway.
[00:25:25]  Or many, many democratic, liberal democratic governments without outright like civil war, right?
[00:25:35]  And now it seems like maybe that's going to get harder if things continue going the way they are.
[00:25:43]  I dread that.
[00:25:45]  Should the left abandon the enlightenment?
[00:25:48]  No, I don't.
[00:25:49]  I think that would be a huge mistake.
[00:25:51]  In that, I think human rights are a good idea.
[00:25:56]  In particular, right?
[00:25:58]  I think that, I mean, I think that you can even be, I mean, a lot of Western Marxists try to reconcile the two, right?
[00:26:05]  Like, the idea is that, in some ways, Marxism is an extension of the Enlightenment, right?
[00:26:11]  Like, it's just a broadening of the Enlightenment project to recognize this other type of exploitation that wasn't seen as exploitation by the classical liberal thinkers.
[00:26:22]  And there were socialist Marxist revolutions that cited the Enlightenment and they were part of that.
[00:26:27]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:28]  Or even like, like, I didn't like the Vietnamese communists.
[00:26:31]  Why are they?
[00:26:37]  I think that it is a mistake to discard the Enlightenment for a couple of reasons.
[00:26:40]  One is that I think human rights are a very good idea that we should hold on to.
[00:26:46]  Even a violent revolution ends with the establishment of a new state, right?
[00:26:53]  And we want that state to maintain some of the Enlightenment project, I should hope, right?
[00:26:59]  I like freedom of speech.
[00:27:01]  I like.
[00:27:02]  I even like freedom of religion despite its many problems.
[00:27:07]  Cults, for example.
[00:27:09]  Yeah, yeah, right.
[00:27:09]  Like, there's a reason why a lot of what most societies do not have freedom of religion, right?
[00:27:14]  But I still like it.