The stress of influencing in the New Age / alt-med world is rough. You have to pretend to know everything, from vaccine science to the origins of autism, to how feminism has desecrated the sanctity of motherhood. It’s not surprising that a growing number of the conspirituality influencers we know and love are all tuckered out, and now choosing to let Jesus take the wheel.
Freebirth mogul Yolande Norris Clark now joins the growing ranks of converts from conspirituality to Orthodox Christianity. How will she square her politics of the divine feminine with a hyper-patriarchal tradition? Or is it really such a stretch?
Show Notes
"Giving Birth in Yogaland"
She wanted a 'freebirth' with no doctors. Online groups convinced her it would be OK.
From Costa Rica, Yolande Norris-Clark Free-Births COVID News About “Hellscape” of Canada
Free-Birther Yolande Norris-Clark Promotes “The Secret Covenant”
COVID-Denialist: “Rona Is as Real as You Want it To Be”Argentino on Pastel Q — Twitter
Pastel QAnon
The Women Making Conspiracy Theories Beautiful
The Instagram aesthetic that made QAnon mainstream
The Conspiracy Theory to Rule Them All
'Pastel QAnon' Is Infiltrating the Natural Parenting Community
First appearance of "The Secret Covenant" online
Secret Covenant: Freedom-Force (2004)
Secret Covenant boosted on a QAnon channel, 2020
PolitiFact | John D. Rockefeller did not write a ‘secret covenant’ about world domination Transphobia in the Midwifery Community
Yolande Norris-Clark: Transgenderism, Feminism & C0Vid (Content warning: transphobic creator)
Orthodox Christian churches are drawing in far-right American converts
Matthew Heimbach excommunicated
Justin Trudeau & The Misuse Of Words
Giving Birth in the Church
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Hello everyone, welcome to Conspiratuality, where we investigate the intersection of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience, and authoritarian extremism.
And today, I can add to that tagline that the stress of influencing in the New Age, alt-med world is rough.
You have to pretend to know everything from vaccine science to the origins of autism to how feminism has desecrated the sanctity of motherhood.
So it's not surprising that a growing number of the conspirituality influencers we know and love are all tuckered out and now choosing to let Jesus take the wheel.
I'm Matthew Remsky.
We are on Instagram and threads at ConspiritualityPod.
And you can access all of our episodes ad-free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on Patreon, or just our bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions.
As independent media creators, we appreciate your support.
Today I've got a brief for you called The Free Birth to Born Again Pipeline.
I used to be a kind of New Age Christian and I used to think that there were multiple truths, the truth was subjective, that truth was ever shifting.
That is the silky voice of ceramics artist, piano teacher, and Pilates instructor, Yolan Norris-Clark, who goes by the handle of Bauhauswife on Instagram, where she posted this reel to her 82,000 followers.
That's the handle she also uses on YouTube, Facebook, and Telegram.
Norris Clark is a leader in the practice of free birthing, which offers the promise of transformational and even ecstatic childbirth without obstetric or midwife supervision.
In the style of many charismatic influencers, her qualifications do not come from any formal training or licensing, but from the joys and troubles of her own life experience as the mother of 10 children, many of them free birthed.
Now, in contrast to the soothing tone you'll hear in this clip, Norris Clark is notorious for slurring evidence-based birth support as the backbone of what she calls the obstetric-industrial complex, while accusing licensed midwives of complicity in forms of what she calls medical rape, which is how she characterizes most medical interventions.
So, I'll get more into that in a bit.
But as you can imagine, the implications of free birth carry a lot of risk.
I'm currently in a Facebook group that collates stories coming out of Norris Clark's circles.
There are over 3,000 members and the posts are harrowing.
Women encouraged to refuse medical evaluation even though they are three weeks overdue.
Free birthers who run into dangerous complications refusing medical care for their struggling infants.
And then there are chilling rationalizations for the times that things really get tragic because of course stillbirths in this system have to be understood as natural and unavoidable.
In one post I read, a doula was very compassionately giving advice on how to non-medically treat fetal loss, but she used the phrase, sleeping baby.
Now, these dangers have attracted international scrutiny.
A 2020 NBC article covered how one of the pregnant followers of the Free Birth Society, which Norris Clark teaches workshops for, was led by the group's advice into a near-death birthing disaster in the wilderness.
Now, since that expose, which didn't seem to slow anything down at all, Norris Clark has attracted additional mainstream criticism for her views in articles in Mother Jones, Rolling Stone and the Toronto Star, which detailed her rightward skid during the pandemic into COVID denialism.
COVID denialism, including calling face masks a form of abuse, calling the COVID vaccine the kill shot, and endorsing the false theory that those who are vaccinated are shedding virus on the unvaccinated and apparently causing a contagion of miscarriages.
That's not a thing.
In 2021, I published three stories about Norris Clark's COVID content.
One about her loud emigration from Canada, fleeing what she called a totalitarian coup related to COVID mitigation measures.
One about how she promoted a protocols of the elders type conspiracy theory text from the early 2000s.
And the other about how she described what sounded like a nearly fatal COVID infection as a figment of her imagination.
But as you can hear now, she's undergone what she describes as a deep conversion experience.
So I'll let more of this reel roll.
And a central part of the transformation that I've been undergoing, centered in my conversion to Orthodox Christianity, is the realization that there is absolutely one truth, an overarching fundamental truth, from which all other truths derive, and that is the truth of God incarnate.
And that when I live in accordance with the truth, I'm in right relationship with myself, with other people, with my husband, with my children, and with God.
Parallel to this positive announcement, because in this world you can't be for something without asserting that something else is actually ruining the world, is Norris Clark's declaration that she, the defender of women's birthing freedom, is now rejecting feminism.
But I'm going to leave that trend for another report because it intersects with some wider themes in an emerging anti-feminist wellness discourse.
Today I'll focus on the religious aspect.
So if you go to look for evidence of Norris Clark's conversion, there isn't much beyond her talking about it and posting photos of a marriage recommitment ceremony to her partner Lee.
Presided over by a cleric in a cream-colored tunic and sporting a long salt-and-pepper beard.
So it's hard to know what the conversion really means to her, except that Norris Clark is making it clear that the shift involves not just a positive embrace of Orthodox Christianity, it is also a contrarian revolt against, well, I'll let her tell it.
I've also realized that the dissolution of language, of boundaries, of barriers, and really the dissolution of meaning was the central project of postmodernism, but that the fruit of that politic is Our current situation now in the world where violation and boundary dissolution is not only accepted and acceptable, but actually valorized and promoted and encouraged.
And while it's not my place at all to dictate to others what the truth is, it is my role and my responsibility, especially as a mother, to know the truth or to have at least an inkling of the truth.
and primarily to be seeking the truth.
And that project of truth-seeking has brought me into a much different and much deeper relationship to God.
And it's also strengthened my marriage and my family.
Hate to interrupt here, but I have to say that Yolan knows about as much about postmodernism as Jordan Peterson does.
It's not about dissolving meaning.
It's about challenging forms of narrative power.
And she fails to recognize that at the heart of postmodernism is the anxiety of self-reference and what happens when subjects create themselves through confession and performance.
And that means that she's not going to understand that monetizing a religious conversion on Instagram is about the most postmodern thing a person could do.
Anyhow, this echo of Peterson Talking Points has predictably impacted her business content.
And this is something that I've been talking about on my podcast, which is free to subscribe to.
And it's also something that I discuss in my private membership for women who are also on the path to truth seeking in whatever way.
And all women are welcome in that community.
So have no fear.
Norris Clark may have realized the one truth, but she can still mark it to everyone.
All of these conversations are being had with a really deep level of respect and honoring for a divergence of opinions, not only my own.
That divergence of opinions part is really interesting because Norris Clark, like so many of her colleagues in this space, is about as dogmatic an ideologue about the correct way of doing things, in her case giving birth, that you could ever come across.
And with that, her content arc is a real object lesson in the direct line, we could call it a pipeline, between a willingness to tell people what they must do to have pure and healthy lives, to a willingness to act as a self-appointed expert on COVID, to a hard detour into QAnon adjacent content, and then getting baptized within a conservative religion.
It's an arc that's becoming more common.
But We'll have to rewind Norris Clark's timeline to see it more clearly.
Norris Clark first came onto my radar because I'm the parent of two children who are alive, along with their mother, because of necessary, compassionate, state-funded, consensual medical interventions.
That means that being adjacent to the yoga and wellness worlds, I have also been a direct witness to the kind of shame and confusion that the rhetoric of natural and free birth showers down on people.
My partner wrote an excellent article about exactly this.
It's called Giving Birth in Yogaland and in it she argues that insisting women should free birth or feel any certain way about the healthcare they have access to is just another form of patriarchy.
I'll put that link into the show notes.
Now, to give a sense of Norris Clark's vehemence on the issue and what she in all likelihood tells her private birth prep clients, I've got a few aphorisms here that she's posted on her IG feed.
One of them says, the industrial obstetric system is not broken.
It has been deliberately designed to break us.
So this extreme and provocative statement suggests that all of the women working in obstetrics, all of the midwives that now work tirelessly on this stuff, I mean including people like Dr. Jen Gunter, are in on a deliberate campaign to oppress women.
Here's another one.
Birth trauma is not normal.
Now I know this is expressing an aspiration, but it's ableist.
If a person is traumatized through any situation, that doesn't make them abnormal.
And here's the last one, and this is in a more galaxy brain mode.
She writes, birth is the source of either fracture or global unity.
So here's where the rhetoric becomes messianic, even eschatological, because the ideology is not just about personal values, but is positioned as potentially saving the world.
And it also carries a moral threat, which is that if you don't have a natural birth, you are participating in the destruction of the world.
It implies also that babies born in hospital won't be fully healthy or actualized.
Now, how does she sell these harrowing messages?
As radically cruel as all of this is, Norris Clark also manages to cloak her ideas and judgments in a glow of equanimity.
Here she is in an Instagram Live in an Ask Me Anything-style dialogue with followers.
She's with her partner Lee and they are answering a question about what happens in free birth if something goes wrong.
What plans do you have if you're struggling or need help?
I'm assuming in the context of free birth.
I don't ever focus on the negative possibilities.
I don't think about what could possibly go wrong.
And my experience of birth, our experience of birth as a couple in our family, and then
in the context of all the work that I've done supporting other women, has just continuously
proven to me over and over and over again that birth is very, very predictable, especially
when you're not in the business of sabotaging it.
.
The husband and father being there, I'm there to support you and listen and pay attention to what your needs are and we just generally flow like that.
Yeah, we don't overthink it.
This is where you can hear the harsh demands of her birth advice to forego care and medication, just evaporate into spiritual vibes.
So it's really a dagger in one hand and then flowers in the other.
And meanwhile, Lee's completely passive voice really puts Norris Clark's faith and intuition at the center of the universe.
Now, a little bit more about that vibe.
At the top of the episode, I pinged Norris Clark's silky ASMR voice.
I cannot overemphasize how important aesthetics are to what she does.
Early videos are shot from the bright white space of her ceramic studio.
She often frames her portrait using the golden ratio with a little bit of off-centering.
And when she moved from New Brunswick to Costa Rica in 2020, she released a stream of videos shot against a luscious jungle backdrop with humming cicadas and hooting monkeys.
The wardrobe is flowing, the jewelry is bright, odd, and chunky, and those aphorisms I just read are designed on white cards with black print in Woodford-born light font.
They look like minimalist wedding invitations, which makes their super aggressive and cursed messages so alarming and incoherent.
So there's a kind of seething paranoia dressed up in modern art gallery chic, which sets Norris Clark up to be a leader in the world of pastel QAnon, in which wellness influencers feminize and launder macabre right-wing conspiracy content for mass consumption.
Her most explicit effort in this zone dropped in April of 2021 when she promoted an anonymous conspiracy-mongering text called The Secret Covenant.
She read it aloud with her commentary on Instagram and then posted it to YouTube.
The text is reminiscent in theme and tone of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, that 1903 anti-Semitic literary forgery that served as a conspiracy theory to root all conspiracy theories and also served as an essential part of Nazi propaganda and continues to inspire white supremacist movements to this day.
Now, while the protocols are fictitious minutes from a meeting of genocidal Jewish bankers describing their plans to pervert the world, The Secret Covenant is written from the perspective of deranged deep state officials who describe themselves as fallen angels.
And it details the macabre ways in which the global population is to be allegedly enslaved and controlled through medical and technological assault.
The authors claim their secret evil plan will deceive the global population and that those who see through it will be thought of as insane.
They promise to poison food and water supplies with soft metals and sedatives, and then to offer poisonous cures.
They will distract the population, quote, with fornication, external pleasures, and games, unquote, send them to war abroad, but deprive them of guns at home, and then turn them against each other through identity politics.
Now, where did this text come from?
from? Norris Clark didn't know, but that didn't seem to bother her.
Quote, what's remarkable about this document, to my mind, she said, is that whether or not
it's a piece of fiction or a legitimate leaked plan from the files of the elite, the
fact is that it describes with exquisite accuracy what is actually taking place all around us
and has been taking place in our world for several generations already, to the extent
that most people today have become utterly inured to the implications and repercussions
of living in a world in which we are being deliberately poisoned, unquote.
sigh Now, as it turns out, the Secret Covenant first appeared in 2002 on a dodgy-looking, now-defunct financial resources aggregator site called BankIndex.com.
And in 2004, the text appeared on the now-defunct right-wing FreedomForce.org website founded by American conspiracy theorist G. Edward Griffin.
Griffin, who's now 89, is a lifelong John Bircher, an HIV-AIDS denialist, and a 9-11 truther.
He believes he knows where Noah's Ark is, and he's written a book on cancer quackery.
But even Griffin thought that the Secret Covenant was a fake and worried that its anonymity and outlandish claims would discredit the truther movement.
Nonetheless, by June of 2020, The Secret Covenant had made its way back into circulation on QAnon channels.
Now, given the tightly interwoven nature of QAnon and COVID denialism themes during that time, I would speculate that that's how Norris Clark came into contact with it.
But here's why I'm zeroing in on her detour into cue-adjacent propaganda.
Although she says that she came to her moment of orthodox conversion over a private four-year-long process, I think her fixation on the secret covenant provides the clearest foreshadowing of how her materials drifted from free birth ideology into born-again certainty.
Because unlike in the earlier protocols, the mustache-twirling authors of the Secret Covenant are fixated not on wealth or power, but on preventing the people of the world from understanding spiritual truths.
They present the paradox that drives the conspirituality market for ritual, herbal, and meditative solutions.
All of existence, they suggest, is simultaneously divine and under grave threat.
Quote, We will always hide the divine truth from them, that we are all one, the text intones.
This they must never know.
Well, Pastel Q saw exponential growth in 2020 as the pandemic intensified online wellness competition, and Norris Clark seems to have surfed that growth.
When I first started writing about her content in March of 2021, she had 30,000 Instagram followers and now it's up to 82,000 or up 270%.
30,000 Instagram followers, and now it's up to 82,000 or up 270%.
She also claims that over 600 women have graduated from the radical birthkeeper school that she co-hosts.
Now, the program started in August of 2020, and if Norris Clark's numbers are correct,
the 12 week $6,000 online course has brought in at least $3.6 million.
dollars.
Now, this fall, Norris Clark is helping to launch a year-long $12,000 online program providing certification in Sovereign Midwifery, which really means midwifery without medical training.
But here's the thing with her turn to the Orthodox Church.
Every ounce of Norris Clark's free birth content has been aimed at the understandable goal of destigmatizing and depathologizing childbirth.
Her goal has been to elevate the power and divine nature of the female body and experience, to dispel notions of pollution and shame, to demand that the entire process be directed, held, and blessed by women and women alone who should be calling on their essential inner strength to give glorious birth without complaint, like Mother Mary.
Now these are ideas that have a long pedigree in birthing counterculture.
During a time when activists were rejecting the medical crisis model of birth, in which mainly male OBGYNs standardized bed birthing in drugged twilight states where consent and agency was simply not considered.
Now in my partner's article about the origins of the natural birth movement, she found that the backlash against medicalization carried its own control factors.
So she tracked the racist and eugenicist theories of Grantley Dick Reed, the UK OBGYN who coined the term natural birth in the title of a book he published in 1933.
I mean, that year alone should be a red flag.
And who, throughout his career, sought to encourage white women to accept their reproductive burden with grace and self-sacrifice, lest the tribals outpaced them in birthing.
Now, many of those values trickled down, gently laundered by new age juices, into the non-intersectional feminist world of Ina May Gaskin, the modern matriarch of natural birth in the US, who remarked that women who wanted epidurals were princesses, and thought that maternal mortality rates for black women were attributable to illicit drug use, And that they might die less often with the help of prayer and homegrown food.
I mean, in actuality, if Gaskin had actually served black women in an anti-racist way, her innovations and skills might have helped push back against the horrible history of how black women have been treated in hospital settings.
So Gaskin, among others in that era, laid out a blueprint for Norris Clark and her colleagues based on the axiom that medical support of childbirth is actually interference and the primary cause of medical emergencies.
Gaskin would coach her clients, who were encouraged to labor and birth at home, to focus on strength through surrender with the aim of transcending pain.
Norris Clark also follows Gaskin in the belief that monitoring procedures like ultrasounds are either useless or lead to more problems than benefits.
And she has followed Gaskin in adopting an anti-trans position in response to midwifery associations promoting trans-inclusive language.
Like Gaskin before her, Norris-Clark also spearheads a very white movement that is deaf to the effects of denigrating evidence-based medicine on marginalized populations.
But where Norris-Clark might follow Gaskin most closely is in the spiritualization of childbirth.
The notion that giving birth is a universally transformative experience that demonstrates the divine nature of femininity.
So, what kind of whiplash results from starting here but then converting to a traditionalist reconstruction of Orthodox Christianity in North America, which has been drawing new adherents from misogynistic far-right political movements?
According to religious scholars quoted in an NPR article from 2022, the largely immigrant Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia has, over the past decade, and as its older congregations wane, attracted a new wave of devotees enamored by notions of traditionalism Some of these new converts have come from straight-up alt-right circles.
According to NPR, Matthew Heimbach, for example, had established the Traditionalist Youth Network, which was involved in organizing the gathering of neo-Nazis and white nationalists at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017.
Now, to be clear, the Orthodox Church in the U.S.
has not welcomed these actors.
Heimbach had actually been excommunicated from one Orthodox community in Bloomington in 2014 for proselytizing racial segregationist views and for beating up an anti-racist activist by using an Orthodox cross as a cudgel.
But the more well-behaved new converts to Orthodox Christianity offer more socially acceptable expressions of reactionary politics.
MAGA pundit Rod Dreher, for example, converted to Orthodox Christianity from Catholicism and is well-read enough to make his support for Trump and anti-LGBTQ policies sound like doctrine.
Now, Norris Clark agrees with Dreyer about trans people being an abomination.
They agree that the trucker convoy in 2022 was a brave expression of anti-authoritarian freedom against the tyrant Justin Trudeau.
She also believed that the convoy was predominantly a working class movement, when in fact it was led by a network of diagonalists, Albertan separatists, and libertarians.
And meanwhile, all major union movements in the country, including bona fide trucking associations, were vigorous proponents of workplace safety during COVID.
So while Norris Clark might find real solidarity with other recent Orthodox Christian converts who share her libertarian views, how will her free birth practices scan against Orthodox Christian tradition?
And the answer might be, very uncomfortably.
And that's because many English-speaking Orthodox congregations today continue to teach the practice of the very old rite of churching.
which bars a new mother from church and its liturgies for 40 days.
Now, the idea, according to the folks at the growing St.
Andrew's Orthodox Church in Riverside, California, is to allow for purification and forgiveness following the supposed uncleanness and sin of giving birth.
During this time, they argue, the woman is connected with the root sinfulness of Eve, but can atone and restore her dignity by confessing to a priest, who would be male, of course.
Catholics largely abandoned this practice in the 1960s, following Vatican II, but many Orthodox congregations are keeping this old purity pollution flame alive.
And thousands of Norris Clark's followers are predictably wondering, how can a free birth philosophy survive this?
How can she possibly square a conversion to Orthodox Christianity with her supposed feminism?
To which Norris Clark replies, basically, fuck you.
I'm really glad to only be on Instagram.
A couple of times a week because it's nuts.
It's so nuts.
People are just absolutely... People have lost their minds.
You've absolutely lost their minds.
If you don't agree with me and you don't resonate with what I have to say, Move along!
Go for a walk!
Go to the beach!
Read a book!
Oh!
It's just ludicrous.
It's... I gotta laugh.
I have to laugh.
I have to laugh about this because otherwise it just... It's mind-boggling.
It's mind-boggling.
It's ridiculous.
Go!
Go home!
Get out.
So the three of us who collaborate on this podcast often have different positions on
the implications of religious identity and conversion and how these intersect with daily
life and politics and even interpersonal behavior.
I tend to take a pretty open-ended view about how earnest people are able to interpret and enact religious traditions.
It's in my nature to, you know, give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to conversion because I'm not inclined to criticize whatever someone needs to get them through the day.
So I think it's possible that Norris Clark has come up with an elegant personal position in relation to these doctrinal aspects that are incompatible with her life's work.
People have all kinds of ways of engaging with and modifying religious tradition to suit their needs and inclinations.
Not only do they make it work, but sometimes they contribute to changing the tradition itself for the better.
So I can't know where Norris Clark lands in relation to all of this in her Heart of Hearts.
For instance, as one Instagram commenter pointed out, the churching practice of seclusion actually makes sense in terms of ancient hygiene practice.
New mothers and babies are highly vulnerable to infection and keeping them away from crowds is really smart and I can easily imagine Norris Clark being able to understand the ritual in metaphorical terms that also happen to make a lot of health sense and then thinking of it as, wow, isn't this amazing that an old religion knew how to take care of its women even if it didn't use the same language I would about why that should happen.
But as a public figure, Norris Clark is presenting her followers with a paradox, as the thousands of shocked comments under her Profession of Faith posts show.
But she may not be worried about the fallout, because conversion is trending.
And she is, after all, joining the ranks of a growing list of rightward-leaning influencers turning towards old-timey religion in a search for spiritual validation for their politics.
We have folklorist Martin Shaw, eco-activist Paul Kingsnorth, accused sex predator Russell Brand, who just got baptized, and then Tracy Peterson, the life partner of Jordan, was welcomed into the arms of the Catholic Church just this past Easter.
What can we say about this influencer zeitgeist as it moves and changes on the waves of algorithm, yearning and boredom?
I've got three thoughts to end with.
First of all, contrarianism easily becomes a self-eating snake.
It has to always reinvent itself to be contrary.
So if you exploded, like Norris Clark did onto the influencer scene in 2013, as someone who denies the benefits of medical assistance in childbirth, it's not surprising that you would become an anti-vax COVID denier in 2020,
and that by 2024, you would find yourself denying the value of feminism because you're suddenly transformed
by your Orthodox Christian conversion.
But you also must present this surrender to an ancient patriarchal right as a new frontier
of radical and transgressive growth.
Secondly, contrarianism is exhausting.
It's really hard to be right all the time about how wrong everyone else is.
And if you add to this the incoherent politics of conspirituality and how its spiritual drives cut in opposite directions, it's very tense.
The result we so often see from creators is waves of manic creativity and paranoia followed by ebbs of exhaustion and surrender.
And what we're seeing more and more is, and you might hear this in Norris Clark's voice back up at the top of the episode, is that it's a real relief to convert and submit to old-timey religion, to let Jesus take the wheel of your downline.
God gives strong support to every frail human certainty.
Thirdly, I think these conversions are relieving because they let the natural and erstwhile repressed conservative values of the wellness influencer to assert themselves.
So this helps to unlock the question that frustrates all conspirituality trackers.
Do these people identify as progressive in their politics?
Isn't that where the whole yoga world starts out from?
From the hippies?
But as we've seen over and over again, the projection of progressive or universal values, of compassion and acceptance, of solidarity with the marginalized, or an awareness of the gifts of feminism, these are not stable positions within this subculture, which easily defaults to reactionary values when the heat is on.
And I'll end with this.
As hundreds of critical comments have pointed out, it actually makes sense in the Norris Clark life arc that she turns her face now towards something new.
She has built her fame in large part on her own reproductive heroism.
And now, in her mid-40s and with 10 children, the birthing phase is coming to an end.
In some ways, I think she finds herself in the position of an elite athlete looking at hanging up the jersey.
Now we know that in the yoga world, for instance, the older teacher often has to change their mode of self-presentation towards something quieter, more philosophical.
They're not going to be doing the acrobatics anymore.
At the same time, it's hard to simply withdraw and retire in this freelance gig work world.
It's hard to quiet quit a world that has validated your spectacle.
And so I'm sad about this world that may steal from the influencer the opportunity for real conversion, that actual change of spirit and heart, the one that they would never need to tell anyone about.
Thanks for listening, everybody.
We'll see you back here on the main feed on Thursdays and Saturdays or on Patreon.
