Neal Brennan has upped the artistic ante in stand-up comedy. In Netflix specials like "3 Mics and Blocks" he’s explored loneliness, isolation, and the mental health fallout of growing up the youngest of 10 in a Catholic family with an extremely unwell father. In the process he’s made some of the great mysteries of family pain and inner turmoil more tolerable.
And—he’s a fan of our podcast, because in his search for relief, he’s tripped through the land of psychedelics, where conspirituality can sour the active ingredients.
Neal joins us today to talk about his weird journey through the plant medicine scene, to wonder whether emotional and spiritual healing makes him funnier, and to answer our questions about how today’s comics are dealing—or not—with their supersized role as political pundits.
His new special is called Crazy Good.
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There is a thing that happens in a lot of ayahuasca circles where everyone's trying to out profound each other with like, you know, how much, how much they got from it.
And last night was incredible.
And, and it, it, I'm not mad at them having an incredible experience.
I'm just aware that they, it tends to be a little subtly competitive, even if people don't realize it.
Hey, everyone.
Welcome to Conspiratuality, where we investigate the intersection of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience, and authoritarian extremism.
I'm Derek Barris.
I'm Matthew Remsky.
I'm Julian Walker.
And I'm Neil Brennan.
For some reason, I'm here also.
You are here.
Mm-hmm.
Welcome.
We at Conspiratuality on Instagram and threads, I believe Neil is as well, but we are at Conspiratuality Pod, and you can access all of our episodes ad-free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on Patreon, or just our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions.
As independent media creators, we appreciate your support.
Conspiratuality 203, is this a joke?
With Neil Brennan.
Welcome, Neil.
I want to do a little bit of an intro here for the half dozen or so listeners who may not know you.
You're a stand-up comedian, comedy writer, you've been at it for decades.
And your skill set tracks back to being a kid, because you've explored in two Netflix specials so far, Three Mikes and Blocks, that there was a lot to overcome while growing up as the youngest of ten in a Catholic family with an extremely unwell father, and being funny helped a lot.
And so, somehow, you've made discussions of family pain and consequent mental health difficulties more tolerable with jokes.
And you sometimes do the same thing with culture war stuff, but for me, it's more than jokes, really, because you've also built a few storytelling innovations into the scene.
Like in Three Mikes, you bounce between these discontinuous voices in a way that mirrors the internal splits that I think many of us are familiar with, if we even can't describe them.
But you're here today because, well, you just did Rogan and our people thought it was, you know, time to call you up to the big leagues for some real questions.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Thank you for this incredible opportunity.
Let's see what he's got.
You also have a new Netflix special out, which is very, very good.
Crazy good.
So welcome, Neil.
Thank you so much for taking the time.
Thank you for having me.
Truth be told, I volunteered to be on the podcast.
Because I listen, and I often, like probably many of your listeners, agree, and then sometimes I'm yelling at you guys from my car.
Yeah, awesome.
You know, that's what free speech is all about, guys.
Got it.
Your special touches upon many things we cover on the podcast, obviously.
If you're a listener, you know that.
During your special, you mentioned binging Stranger Things, so I felt seen because I didn't find it until recently.
But then there are other topics like ayahuasca and something that is also deeply, intensely personal.
Although, to be honest, it didn't invoke metaphysical feelings in me, so I think we have some differences there.
But I want to hear a bit about Well, it's a good entry point.
Good journalism, guys.
I do production as well.
Well, it's a good entry point because, so good journalism, guys.
Good.
I do production as well.
You're doing a great job in terms of formatting.
Now, ayahuasca is a great starting point for all of us because that's part of what got
me interested in the conspirituality world.
Ayahuasca has been incredibly helpful to me, right?
It literally changed my life.
I've done it 15 or so times over the last four years.
So I found, I literally experienced what I believe is a God connection.
Great.
Got me off antidepressants.
Great.
Within that, I have found a lot of what you guys are talking about on the pod, which is just snake oil salespeople and unfalsifiable Things that people traffic in energy healing and, you know, selling life coaching and just kind of preying on people.
And I've had disagreements with people in in the community about what they're doing and how they're doing it.
And is it ethical?
So that's why I love the podcast so much.
And I would also like to say about ayahuasca and this world is I have experienced things that Cannot be explained by science or medicine, I believe.
That's my belief.
And again, I don't say that will happen for you, or it happens for everyone, or it happens often.
I'm just saying my understanding of it is, when I'm on ayahuasca and I'm shaking in a way that I can't explain, no one else can explain, and then a few months later, I'm with a female friend.
I start shaking for no reason and she goes, Oh, I should have told you.
I opened my Reiki channel.
Oh, well, that seems like scientific.
That's a double blind study, I believe I was just a part of.
Involuntarily.
So, like most people about many things, I'm of two minds about it.
It is magical, and maybe I'm wrong, and maybe these people are snake oil sales people,
but it's pretty effective snake oil, I gotta say.
That would be my... And the other thing is that on a lot of issues, I am the Supreme Court.
I can go five to four.
I can go seven to two.
I can get, you know what I mean?
Like the rulings that are the, my feelings about so many things are not like unanimous overwhelming.
I think that's the, one of the many things that's disappeared over the last 10 years is people always say nuance.
It is nuance, but it's also just like a slim majority within myself and it's shifting majority within myself based on the latest information.
I think that's good that you're able to do that.
You know, Derek and I can both really relate to the power of psychedelics.
Matthew, not as much, but I've done pretty much all of them.
Square.
Matthew's a square.
Go on.
Matthew's a square.
We can discuss that later.
But Julian, go on.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I've done pretty much all of them.
I actually relate to everything you're talking about.
I'm familiar with the types of experiences.
You're describing the shaking stuff and then it's showing up later and, you know, all the different sort of connections there.
I've experienced the sky talking directly to me right after communing with these two trees who were kind of looking directly into my soul.
And I've had moments that at the time seemed to only be explainable as paranormal or mystical.
You've also talked about absolutely terrifying experiences, as well as difficulties with integration, and I've definitely been there too.
I ended up listening to your Rogan appearance from last week, and you describe your psychedelic odyssey with a sort of extra layer of how really harrowing it was.
And you said you even considered suicide as an option to get this unbearable reintegration experience after smoking DMT to stop.
It was too much.
And I know that was a while ago.
It sounds like you've been able to disentangle the destabilizing aspects of that almost psychotic intrusion from the benefits that you also report in terms of substantial relief from depression, anxiety, resentment.
So here's my question.
How are you doing like right now in the aftermath of being even more open about those experiences on the biggest platform in the world?
As you guys may have experienced doing a podcast is you don't know these things of like, you're on this huge platform or your, does it feel like it doesn't really feel like, and you don't, you guys don't get an inch taller when you gain to 10,000 listeners.
Yeah.
Nothing really different happens.
So, and I re experienced that on Chappelle show where it was the highest selling DVD, uh, in the history of, TV, some statistic like that.
And it's like, how's it feel?
I don't know.
Felt like it did a year ago.
I just, whatever, more, I guess more people acknowledge it.
So it doesn't feel like, like exposing in a highly sensitive way to you.
You know, last year I did Joe, or a year and a half ago, I did Rogan and I spoke about all that stuff even more in more detail.
And I had, you know, what's nice, I think is nice is people reach out.
People that have had the same experience.
And they say like, you know, it becomes a bit of a 12-step group where it is like sharing experience, strength, and hope.
There is something comforting about like, oh, that guy also had a bad experience because you feel kind of stigmatized if you had a bad experience because it becomes like a mean girl's kind of like, we're all, we all, Met God and we're all healed and we're all in alignment and you're not and it's like...
This seems like not the point, um, but it does that human thing of feeling like FOMO or even shame about not having, you know, this profound experience.
There, there is a thing that happens in a lot of ayahuasca circles where everyone's trying to out profound each other with like, you know, how much, how much they got from it.
And last night was incredible.
And, and it, it, I'm not mad at them having an incredible experience.
I'm just aware that they, it tends to be a little, Subtly competitive, even if people don't realize it.
Yeah.
And you talk about being the one in that circle saying, uh, the universe is about to end and I'm not okay.
That's my share.
Yeah.
Like, uh, this is bad.
And, uh, yeah.
And then the next guy said, The next guy said, like, I'm balancing.
And I was like, balancing, bro, it's all over.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like we're, this is the end.
So, so yeah, I've had very, very harrowing experiences in that realm, but also what it did to my spirit, my Netflix special is twice as popular as my other ones.
This one, the jokes might be a little better.
There is no emotion, which people, Appreciate because no, people don't go to a comedy show for goddamn feelings.
There's a noticeable difference.
I'm better at comedy.
I know that there is a danger in saying it's because of ayahuasca and DMT, both beautiful and harrowing experiences.
Cause I don't, my worry with all of this sort of wild west, you know, psilocybin, ayahuasca, MDMA stuff is, There aren't enough people that are equipped to even understand what's happening.
Like, in my experience, I didn't really have anyone to turn to.
Well, that's what I was actually about to ask you.
In the depths of what you describe, where it was so incredibly unbearable, were you all alone in that?
Did you have no one to turn to?
Yeah.
I mean, basically, as I understood it, the people who had administered it, no one really has much aftercare.
They say they do.
In my experience, people talk a big game about, I'm here, text me whenever, email us, we'll get back.
And it just becomes like, Any customer service department, you know, where it's just like, ah, we're backlog, bro.
Yeah.
I think that there's a part of it.
And you see this sometimes on like ayahuasca Reddit threads.
There's a part of it where people like the shamans or whatever, Are they a little embarrassed that you had a bad experience?
Are they trying to talk you out of it?
No, you need to, or you're unresolved, or you're not integrating properly, or it's the fault is with the, you know, with the customer.
And not like there's anything that they could directly do.
Yeah.
But like when I did DMT, I believe I was over-served in my experience.
Sometimes people are very judicious about it.
I've sat with maybe four different People for ayahuasca and with DMT, I think there is such an excitement about this sort of panacea that everyone's excited.
Like you can't take too much.
It's so great.
You can't take too much.
And it's like, no, I think I took too much.
Did you smoke it or intravenously?
Smoked it.
There was also a thing that I found out in a white paper afterward that, that my friend looked up cause they have like a GitHub account.
It's one of those things, a white paper where it's like 70%, 70% of people who smoke DMT have a reactivation.
It's lower for intravenous.
So something like that, like I've never heard that before.
That wasn't part of the marketing shtick.
No.
Well, that's the thing is it's all word of mouth.
So no one's going to say it's great, but no one's going to say, you got to listen to this new album.
It's got five crappy songs.
It's got six of them.
They'll just go, it's six of the best songs.
Or like, this is the best album I've ever heard.
Because of the six songs, it crosses the Rubicon into the greatest album ever.
They don't say like, there's five kind of garbage songs.
And there's a bit of, that might not be a great analogy, but like there is a, there, no one wants to be a scold with this stuff.
Yeah.
And it's the tricky part about it being spiritualized, psychological work, right?
There's a sheen on it that is that this is, this is the ultimate truth of the universe.
This is you getting in touch with plant teachers that are going to, you know, illuminate and enlighten you.
So touching on any of the shadowy stuff is, I think sometimes.
Well, yeah, it's, It is similar to, you know, why the Catholic Church, not all of them, just Catholic, got away with molestation.
It's because you feel like you're questioning God.
You're not just saying, this guy did this to me.
You're saying this whole God thing.
It calls the whole thing into question.
And there's going to have to be, for it to be effective, some sort of way to be honest about it.
I'm really glad that you tied those two things together because I think you've given about ten of the reasons why I'm actually a square and it really comes down to, with regard to psychedelics, I haven't done any of that stuff.
And there's a couple of things.
I know you grew up Catholic as well.
But for me, that very sort of scripted, spiritualized experience, I think, gave me a lot of concern around deception and hypocrisy and competence.
And so if I'm going to go into a group scenario, I have to be extremely sort of clear that I'm not going to be fucked with.
And I think the chances of being fucked with are pretty high.
But I think there's also something really personal about shying away from it, which is that like, My mind, my brain, the way in which I write and construct things compulsively is really my safety valve.
It's my protective mechanism.
And I think that's what would be shattered.
And then, you know, everybody and their brother is going to tell me, well, that might be good for you, Matthew.
And I just can't go there.
I'm just not willing to put it down.
You're afraid of the ego death.
Yeah, I've had ego death, but I like bringing it on myself at the time of my own choosing, right?
Yeah, I was joking.
But I want to say, Neil, that you opened this show by saying, I have terrible news for all of you.
I'm feeling pretty great.
And, you know, I appreciate hearing that it feels like it's flowing better for you now in your stand-up work.
But it reminded me of this dear writer friend that I had who suffered from depression for a long time and... Doesn't sound like a writer.
Go on.
Well, he said to me, and it's haunted me ever since, he said, you know, if therapy really works for me, I may not be an interesting person anymore.
Like, I may not have anything to write about.
I think that's kind of a rephrase of what you just said a minute ago.
Yeah, it is.
Isn't that sort of what you're getting at?
A little bit.
Yeah, I mean, again, all I can tell you is my experience, because I don't, there aren't very many cases of someone who healed themselves of being an artist.
Uh, historically, I think it's a, I think it's kind of a false narrative.
If you know enough writers, artists, comedians, directors, actors.
They're fucking lying.
Yeah.
And they don't want to do the work.
And by the work, I mean any sort of emotional excavation, because it's hard and it's a pain in the ass.
So you go, I can't, man, because I don't want to lose all this.
I did the work with, and a friend of mine actually said at the first time we did ayahuasca, he goes, hey, are we going to be able to be capitalists after this?
And it's a similar thing where what's going to happen to me?
And I, a part of me was like, well, I'm only doing comedy to be happy.
So if I can skip that step, the comedy is great and I'm skilled at it.
But at the same time, it's like, it's also very hard and very arduous and embarrassing.
And on a, on a pretty daily basis, it's like, it's so hard that it's just like, you're constantly getting winded.
You know, you're constantly getting the wind knocked out of you.
My point is, like I said, I know more writers, artists, comedians, directors, actors, et cetera, musicians, who have died from not healing themselves than I do those that try to heal themselves and stop being good.
Because I'm an object lesson or an example of I'm healthier and I'm funnier.
So it's another piece of bad news.
I'm healthier and I'm funnier.
Because a lot of the thing that was holding me back was like, I didn't seem like I was having fun.
And on three mics and blocks, it's like, I seem like I seem pretty bummed out.
So if I have the same basic Reflexes and skill set.
I've wrote all those jokes, or a lot of the jokes from Crazy Good, post-Ayahuasca.
I think all of them.
Post-Ayahuasca, post-DMT.
I've also written great jokes, not on, before antidepressants.
I wrote Chappelle's Shell on antidepressants.
That's so off, baby!
Like, I think it's just me.
Do you know what I mean?
I think it, I think I'm, I'm gonna be, I have the reflexes.
Like I wrote a joke the other day that Joe Biden looks like a young mummy.
Now, that's just a reflex.
I wasn't sad and then was like, I need to get out of this.
Young mummy!
It just happened.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
So I don't, I, again, if you're, if you're, if I get like wanting to hold onto the thing you do, if it's, especially if it's making you a living, but I don't, I think it's kind of an old wives tale.
Well, it seems like you've moved on from this like place where you were in this short doc called Laughing Matters that, you know, talks about the terrible mental health stories of comedians.
And one of your opening lines is, well, you know, If we're clear about things, or if we have clarity, maybe clarity is misery, if we have clarity about the world.
And so for me, that's like George Carlin, it's Hannah Gadsby, it's Mark Maron.
And then you have this whole thing in the present piece about, you know, comedians and sports professionals being psychopaths and drug addicts.
Artists as well.
And inventors.
And inventors.
And it seems like there's a kind of clarity that we pay your class of people for, whether we see the cost of it or not, whether we know or whether we care that it's driving you into the ground.
But it sounds like you might be free of that a little bit.
Yeah.
And now I could say like, well, I made myself a, I was a psychopath.
Now I'm a drug addict.
However you want to square it.
Again, I'm not a drug addict.
I just use it for upkeep every couple months.
The thing that writes the jokes, what Stephen King calls the boys in the basement, I just
think it's going to happen regardless.
In some ways, people are trying to justify negative thought patterns because I think
there is a...
People don't want to change.
See, I see the truth and you can't see it, man.
And it's like, eh, obviously they see it too.
Cause they're laughing.
I just get to, I get to see young mummy before everyone.
I say it and you go, he does look like a young mummy.
So, and, and it didn't require pain to get there unless you consider the, the, the odyssey of the, um, of ayahuasca and DMT.
Painful, which it really was, but it was also, I was reconstituted in a better way, or as it is known in the world of conspirituality, integration.
You had a great awakening.
You know, I can't help but think of the Tom Waits line.
If I exercise my demons, my angels might leave too.
And it sounds like you're saying that's a rationalization for people not wanting to just deal.
Yep, it's all rationalizations of just, I don't wanna, it's like, most of the anti-vax stuff was just laziness.
And was like, there's a risk in putting a new needle.
A buddy of mine had a really good observation that ended up being true.
He said the thing that they're not talking about in this is like, a lot of people are just afraid of needles and don't wanna admit it.
Yep, yep.
And statistically was born out in a study.
When you said upkeep regarding psychedelics, that's an interesting one.
I remember Alan Watts writing, when you get the message, hang up the phone.
Now, I'm someone who did psychedelics over 150 times, so they were a very big part of my life for a while.
It's very infrequent now, although I still enjoy them.
So when you say you go back for upkeep, is it that you're hitting a ledge and you're going over and you're like, oh, I need to go revisit that place again?
What is it serving for you?
It's more, honestly, I say it's upkeep.
The great thing that happened for me was once I started doing ayahuasca, mushrooms and MDMA became, when I would take those, it would be very similar to ayahuasca.
I say upkeep.
It does feel good to reconnect with what I interpret as like a central creation force.
It is fortifying to me to just remember like, oh, right.
It's a joke.
And even it's a thing.
It's like Islam has it right where you probably should pray five times a day.
You know, like just it's it's it's another version of that joke is or that observation is like there's churches on every corner because church only lasts about a block.
And then you're like back to being like an asshole and you're like, no, no, you know what?
I'm people are, I'm good and I'm a vessel for God and I need to be generous and kind.
And then it's in, then you'd walk a little bit and you're like, fuck people.
And then you get to the next corner and you're like, yeah, you know what?
People are good.
And I need, you know what I mean?
So, so I see it as a version of that where I think it's a good reminder to, to do MDMA every three months.
Obviously it feels, I don't really get like the sexual part of MDMA.
So, to me, I'm too spiritual, guys.
That's my problem.
I think that's a misunderstanding.
I don't think there was ever really a sexual part of MDM.
I've heard some people, but I never got that either.
Well, you're too spiritual, too, Derek.
Yeah, I don't think it's a misunderstanding.
No, well, you're too pure, Derek.
You're like me.
We should exchange emails.
And I'll give you my signal because, you know, the government's watching us.
I call it upkeep.
I could never do it again.
I think I think it's in me enough now that I could function without it.
Yeah.
So I when I say upkeep, it's it's it's elective.
But again, that's a thing that I've heard.
The thing I'd heard in the ayahuasca world is like, you should do it every two months and come here and do it.
Yeah.
It's a bit of an ink cartridge situation.
I'll invoke Alan Watts again because he used to call it spiritual one-upmanship, what you were referencing, which was the ayahuasca circle.
I had this, I had this.
You also talk in your special about trauma flexing, which is kind of similar in that line because trauma is a real problem for a lot of people.
Yet, as you say during the special, it's something physical that can be felt, not something to throw out for any slight affliction on social media.
Well, you know, there's a bit of a lie there.
And here's the lie.
Well, the lie I told was that trauma is a physical thing.
It was considered only a physical thing until 1975.
And then the DSM-II or something, one of them, Changed it to kind of anything, which may have been, I've heard it sort of, I've read it sort of couched as a, as a business decision by the DSM.
It's like you get more patients if there's more, if, if anything can be trauma and or maybe it's, it's a more generous definition.
Either way, I think anyone who's aware of social media, TikTok, Instagram, Sees it like, well, this is just another, it's almost like a dance trend where you just go like gaslighter, uh, narcissistic.
You just say all the things that your, your boyfriend was, your boss was, your ex, your whoever, you seem cool and you seem in the know about mental health stuff.
And you seem empathetic and you seem like an ally.
You seem like all the things you're supposed to seem, but mostly it's just for that purpose to be seen, to, to appear as a righteous person.
You don't, you don't, most of the people aren't experiencing real trauma.
You're not going to put, you know, subtitles and music under it.
They're just, if they are there, the way they're dealing with it, isn't gonna, Be very helpful to them if they're just making it up.
A show where they just cry on Instagram or TikTok.
You know, I had a thought about that, which is that part of that joke rides on juxtaposing the kind of goofy millennial urgency woman with, I think you gave the example of the World War II vet.
Yes.
Who was never able to say a word about the mindless slaughter that completely shattered his brain.
But I have this sense that there's this intergenerational relationship Between tortured silence in one generation and awkward oversharing in the other.
And so I'm wondering if, like, you know, is it possible that the younger person is at least starting to explore what our grandparents couldn't?
They might be doing it in part because our grandparents couldn't do it.
I don't think there's that.
I don't think they're thinking that deeply into it.
I don't think there's any.
They like, they may pick that up now.
Because of me?
Because of me?
Yes, because of you, Matthew.
You square.
You're still a square.
Don't think I forgot you.
Um, the, uh, no, there, there is a part of me that, that there, there was a tag that I never did, which is like, yeah, you should, you know, and then they came home and slowly drank themselves to death.
Exactly.
Like they were experiencing trauma and they said nothing.
Now I'm still a mental health advocate, right?
The things that were most effective for me were ayahuasca and DMT.
No one can sell that story, really.
No one can really benefit from it.
It's not like a therapy story.
I did a lot of EMDR.
I did transcranial magnetic stimulation.
I did ketamine.
I did a bunch of other things.
Ayahuasca and DMT were more helpful by tenfold.
I think that there might be a net positive with the amount of sharing going on now.
I think, like, there are, it is a lot less stigmatized, but it's, now it's crossed into trivialized.
I'm not making fun of people talking about trouble.
I'm making fun of people commodifying it for views and follows, similarly to the way you guys are on your wonderful podcast, Conspiratuality.
Join the Patreon, guys, is my point.
Yeah, it's a really hard line to walk and to understand, too, that the influencer, whoever it is, may not see where that edge is either.
Like, they might be driving out of, like, an actual earnest need to explore a kind of language that is new to them.
And yeah, then they have tools for commodifying it.
In the same way that, you know, as you're saying, we're doing in this space as well.
And so it's this mixture of earnestness meeting audience capture, plus the algorithm, plus what becomes more resonant with more people.
Very strange, strange landscape.
Yeah.
And I don't I don't know what it's another Supreme Court thing where it's like right now it's five to four in favor of it being a good thing.
But that could swing if one of these justices dies in my head.
Because there are days where I'm like, this is bullshit, and people are not.
This is doing more harm than good.
Or it's just trivializing a serious, in cases, a life and death thing.
You know, for certain people and, and making it, uh, just, they, they just bullshit.
Yeah.
The, the concept I've, I've heard to describe this culturally is concept creep, where a concept has a particular meaning.
And then over time, as it becomes used more widely in a more popular kind of way, especially on the internet, it can start to shade over into, you know, meaning things that are a lot less, uh, accurate.
Yeah.
It happens with everything.
So you hope that it helps the people that can help.
And the people that are bullshitting just come and go like day traders or you know what I mean?
Or like any sort of like new job, life coaches, just any new newfangled made up thing that they just go, Oh, that's a cool thing.
Now I'm going to go do that.
Yeah.
NFT people.
NFT people, people who make travel videos.
Who all use that same vague electronic song underneath them doing backflips off a ledge.
Well, let's get into why you're actually here.
What is your problem with Wells Fargo, Neil?
I should reveal why.
This came about because I'm a big fan of the podcast and you guys were slamming somebody Maybe Huberman talking about the green S.G.
What is it?
Athletic greens.
Highly likely.
And and then literally while I was the next commercial that came on on the podcast was for Wells Fargo.
Yeah.
And it was like and I was like I literally thought I was like I had to like look like is this the same?
Am I having a DMT flashback?
Yeah.
It's my are the DMTs back?
And I, and I, then I emailed you guys a furious email.
Uh, no, I just said like, I don't even know what I said, but I, I, it was sort of like, Hey, I don't, I just, as a viewer, it's a little inconsistent.
And Matthew, Matthew was raised Catholic guys and he knows about hypocrisy.
So.
I thought I would strike a nerve with him.
It seemed a little hypocritical.
The most fined bank in America.
Yeah, and I wrote right back to you.
I wrote right back to you.
I said, yeah, it's complicated.
We're with a platform.
We don't make all of the decisions, all of this stuff.
And you said that you were going to transfer Derek and Julian to a different podcast.
And so that they couldn't get prosecuted in the county, etc., etc.
Yeah, but you know, it wasn't a furious email.
You actually reached out to apologize because you had mentioned it in some offhand way on Marc Maron's show, and I haven't even heard it.
Oh, that's what it was, yeah.
I don't think it's aired yet.
You said something that made you feel a little bit, you know, bad or something like that.
I thought it was a really classy thing to do to reach out and say, hey, I did this and this is why and maybe you should reconsider your advertising, I don't know, portfolio.
Well, I wasn't even saying reconsider your advertising.
It was just like, I did have a problem with it.
It was on my mind that day and I did, Maren.
And I said it.
And then I was, and then I realized that Neil, jokes have consequences.
So I had a real, I looked deep within.
Was that a new realization for you?
Like?
No.
Hell no.
So, uh, no, I've been hurting people a long time, believe me.
So, so no, I didn't want to just like broadside you guys and, or blindside you guys and, and light into you.
Cause I, I am a legitimately big fan of the podcast.
Not like, big fan!
Like, no, I don't Patreon it, but I get it off Apple Podcasts.
We appreciate it.
Now, I'll just say from our perspective as three people who predominantly survive doing this work financially and emotionally.
It's always a challenge.
I've been in journalism for 31 years, and the sort of trade-offs that you have to make to be able to do media and do journalism are always difficult.
As the guys will tell you, I was a holdout on even doing ads, and I'm glad we did because it allows us to be able to continue to do this work.
But that said, we are able to sometimes say, hey, no to the supplements deal, because some supplements companies have come for us and been like, no, we're not taking that money.
But unfortunately, some banks do slip in.
Yeah, and the thing that came to mind when you said that in one of the emails was like, A lot of people are doing the same calculus.
A lot of the people that you're assailing on the podcast are, we all have to make a living and that's part of my issue with some of the ayahuasca-esque world.
The conspirituality world is like, once people start, like they quit their day job to focus on life coaching or focus on just having an ayahuasca center or whatever, it, it, everything gets perverted.
Totally.
So what I'm saying is you guys have to stop doing the podcast or stop doing advertising.
Ayahuasca coaches.
With no ads.
No.
Look, we always appreciate input like that.
It was really classy of you to do that, to reach out and let us know.
By the way, you don't have to appreciate it.
You can find it incredibly aggravating and presumptuous.
I'm not of the world that we all have to handle things well.
I don't handle many things well.
But we don't.
We don't.
And in fact, to people who are listening, If you ever hear an ad and you're like, that seems fishy, reach out to us because we actually do have some ability to say, oh, by the way, this one slipped through that was on our list of categories of ads that we are not comfortable running and please take it off immediately.
And they do that for us.
Right.
But there's also one like the meat one.
I'm vegan.
Do you know what I mean?
And I just go, yeah, it's bad for the environment.
I don't care how ethical the meat is.
And again, I direct Corona commercials, so I don't have a hot to piss in on this.
We're all sort of betraying our inner values in some way.
Obviously, it's a matter of degree.
But that's the risk you guys run of being sort of a ethical watchman.
Yeah.
Again, I, and I don't, by the way, which may preclude advertising and then you don't, then you can't do the podcast as well.
Like there's all these mechanisms that like, if thens, and I don't, I don't have an answer, but I, all I do know is that I did shit on you on Marin.
Yes.
And that's the important part.
And that was, that's probably a high point in our career.
That's probably a high point for us.
I can only imagine the thrill.
You guys are going to all pull over.
It will be.
Make your kids listen to it.
Can you believe it?
Me on Marc Maron.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
These two guys were talking about us.
Do you know how famous they are?
Yeah.
You know, I think the thing for us, like, like, you're probably listening to the Andrew Huberman episode.
So for us, when you have someone like Andrew Huberman, who the podcast is called Andrew Huberman Lab, he rests on the laurels of his of his academic credentials and the fact that he's involved in a research facility to whatever extent he really is.
And then he turns to the camera and endorses AG1 as having all these benefits, which are not at all supported by science.
And behind the scenes, he's getting millions of dollars from that kind of endorsement because of his profile and his qualifications.
What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is that that, the petite, the, the, your brand is
a ethical rectitude.
That's sort of what you're trafficking.
Yeah, and cultural criticism.
Yeah, but it's cultural, but it's like... I don't know that it's general.
Is it general ethical rectitude or is it a critique of a certain kind of conspiratorial... Yeah, I think you're policing, you're, yeah, but you're police, you're policing people, you know, you're policing... Pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, cults.
Yeah, yes.
And again, I like it.
I'm not saying this as like I didn't just like stumble on it I really like it and I think it's necessary but the part of people advertising on our podcast is that there's a you create a brand and if you guys say Wells Fargo's Good.
And again, you didn't do the ad.
It was inserted, et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah.
But if you guys say that Wells Fargo, I, the, the understanding is there's some ethics here and I don't think that's why Wells Fargo chose you.
I'm sure it was relatively all automated.
So, so again, I'm, I'm not saying change anything.
I'm just saying that's what I, me and Maren were talking about advertising on podcasts.
So I didn't just go like, Mark, before we start, can I just shit on this podcast?
No, totally.
It makes sense.
I think it's, it's an interesting conversation.
Yeah.
And again, you guys made a five to four decision, I'm assuming.
Totally.
Yeah.
Or three to three to two to one or whatever the, whatever the majority rule was, you guys made it and I'm not mad at it.
I, and I'm not even asking you guys for have to have empathy for a Huberman as a fellow hypocrisy sniffer.
Yeah.
I was just like, Yeah, it was, it was jarring to you.
I totally get it.
I totally get it.
Traumatized.
Traumatized.
I was traumatized.
Traumatized.
Ah, yes.
You were traumatized.
We will await your Instagram reel about it.
So look, Neil, as someone on the inside of the comedy world, here's how I see it.
Like free speech politics.
Ended up intersecting with COVID and other culture war issues over the last several years within the comedy community.
Like, do you have observations about that?
Does that sound accurate?
Sure don't.
I'm kidding.
Well, yeah, it's, uh, it's I, if we want to remain in COVID, that's one thing.
Here's what I believe happened.
And this is in a, in a bigger way.
In the 70s, 80s, 90s.
60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.
Clergy fell.
Ask me and Matthew about that.
And that's not just Catholicism.
It's more or less every religion.
The more transparent the world got, the more revealed everyone got.
So it's like clergy are pedophiles a lot of times.
Boy Scout leaders.
Politicians are all on the dole.
It's one from another.
The simplest law in the world would take $30 million to get past the United States Senate.
I made that number up, but it seems credible.
Clergy, politicians gone.
Media, they're wrong so much.
Like a pretty big thing like the Iraq invasion.
And then you find out all of the steps of they're just like, they're just laundering White House talking points for access journalism.
They're doing it to sell ads.
They're doing it for clicks.
So everyone has sort of fallen off.
Into the breach comes Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, South Park, Chappelle, Rock, Jim Jeffries, Bill Burr.
I mean, and they're not all.
And then Joe and then podcast started.
And I would put Joe in the category of comedian.
And what I say in the special is that there's all these serious issues like, say, transgender.
Finally, people are like, well, what do the clowns think?
The fact that people are asking what comedians think is a failure of other categories.
Right?
And this isn't just a cop-out.
I say this as, like, I've worked on The Daily Show, I've known Jon Stewart 30 years, I co-created Spell Show.
I have very much considered the moral implications of mass communications, right?
And I don't think it should be our job.
It's like blaming the landscaper for the Hurricane Katrina flooding.
It's like, no, this is the Army Corps of Engineers.
This is environmental erosion.
This happened.
We're like, technically, yeah, the landscape looks bad.
I will admit that.
But it's because of all these failures before the landscaper.
You know, and that's how I feel as a comedian.
I know like Jon Stewart, from what I've heard, dealt with the implications of actually kind of being a credible news person.
So I think maybe the first five or six years he was like, I'm on after robots.
Why do I have to deal with this?
And so he, they brought on a fact checker, fact checker and they, and I don't know if maybe he may have been there before, but that's what I'd heard.
So there I've had, like I said, worked at the Daily Show and there was a thing of like, do we mean that even like a Trump joke?
I remember me and Michelle Wolf pitched a joke about Melania.
And they were like, yeah, but that could be interpreted as like she's like a, you know, prostitute.
And me and Michelle were like, yeah, that's how we meant it.
Yeah.
You know, and they didn't do the job because they were like, well, we don't want to say she's a prostitute.
I've seen the ethical I've seen like ethical decisions made.
And there were a hundred of those a day on The Daily Show.
I've seen me and Dave have discussed it at length in terms of our show, the stuff he says now.
I, I, I don't agree with, but whatever.
I don't agree with, I, I've been arguing with Dave for 30 years.
It's just like now the last couple of years, other people have joined me.
It's like, Oh, this is, I've been arguing with this guy.
Like, it's not even like, Oh, are you?
It's like, yeah, it's just a guy that you argue with.
I don't see it as like, what is happening?
And the fact that he has such, such power is like, it's not, no one moves out to LA to be, uh, You know, righteous or kind or, or, uh, informationally sober or, you know, like people move out here to be funny and famous.
I put Joe in that category.
I put like a lot of people that I've known.
And again, I've known him a long time.
So I remember.
I think the daily show.
The Daily Show is a really interesting example, right?
Because it sort of bears out what you're saying, where I think for people of a certain age, the Daily Show became what they relied on to get their news.
They were sick of watching the cable news cycle and like, let's just go to Jon Stewart and let Jon Stewart tell us what the news is and put his very intelligent, sarcastic kind of spin on it.
That's going to make us laugh, but we'll also kind of know what's going on in the world.
I feel like with so like, why are people asking the clowns?
Okay.
And then you get into podcast territory.
And I feel like there's, there's a thing that happens with podcasts around free speech, like 2014, 2015.
And eventually we get to COVID where.
You know, you were just on Rogan and you were saying to him kind of gently, I really appreciated the way you were doing it, like trying to raise some issues with him of saying, I almost heard you saying to him, you kind of contribute to what's going on in our fractured discourse right now by putting stuff out there that isn't really fact checked by sort of encouraging and propagating some of these more conspiratorial interpretations of things, right?
Yeah.
And that's the, I mean, that's a different, That's a tactical conversation about, like, I don't believe that any liberal politician knows how to talk to people.
I think that they don't know how to dress.
John Fetterman has the right idea, and now he's going more and more to the center.
But, like, that's who people will vote for.
Stop it with these tailored suits and these, you know, like, Your ivory tower and being like, I pity you, you're disgusting, and I expect you to vote for me.
It's just a horrible approach.
And I think when I deal with my friends that are more conservative or literally Joe Rogan, the approach has to be, Hey, man, I don't know, because I don't think screaming helps.
And I don't think I sometimes I don't think facts help.
I think it's just like, what is it?
What do you what kind of what's going to persuade people?
That's the you know, what's funny about, you know, people talk about the civil rights movement as Uh, the most effective social movement in world history.
And it was real, it was very designed, you know, like the, what are we going to wear?
Are we going to be violent?
Are we, and like, how are we going to persuade people?
And I think now there's a thing on the left where it's such, people are so high on their own righteousness that they don't think they should have to persuade people.
That it's beneath them.
And the thing I would say is like, Martin Luther King was offering God and heaven.
What are we offering?
Because we don't even believe in God anymore.
So it's like, what are we offering people?
And then and my buddy Kurt Metzger says that liberals offer being on the right side of history.
Wow.
The right side of history.
What?
I'll take socialized medicine.
I'll start there.
No, I'm not.
Again, that was what was being offered.
Right.
But I'm saying the right.
But again, in order to get it, you have to persuade people.
Sure.
Sure.
And like Obamacare was an act of persuasion.
That I almost feel like people don't have the stomach for it.
Politically, I think Obama's very good, but I'm saying like, it's around, you know, in 16 through 20, 2016 through 20, it just became like, this is, you know, Trump, the Trumps of the world are so morally noxious that to even, I shouldn't even have to stoop to persuade you.
Yeah.
And I can't even fathom that you'd like him.
This is what I really appreciated about, you know, sticking it out through the two and a half hours of your appearance on Rogan because it's kind of embodied the entire issue because there's two hours of, you know, your friends chiding each other from opposing sides of the, you know, science, evidence, pseudoscience fence.
Uh, and that is where all of the confusion kind of festers.
I think you called on Jamie about eight times to look up, like, how much fentanyl was in, you know, George Floyd's bloodstream and stuff like that.
And so there's this There's this, what is this space in which we're kind of in somebody's garage, not really getting clear about what happened or what the fluoride in the water means, and then it changed.
You got to the two-hour mark, and I don't know whether you asked him first or he said something first.
He asked me about getting, he gets anxious at night.
Mm, that's right, that's right.
Yes, yes, so he admitted, he admitted he got anxious, most nights went stone.
Now, I don't listen to this guy, I don't know if this is a rare admission, but that got you into this more vulnerable friendship territory, and so you're empathizing with him, but you're also describing your own spiritual hope.
So there's two hours of, I don't know what it is, it's kind of filler, and then 30 minutes of connection.
It's filler to you, but it's like, to most people, it's that, for a lot of people, that's what they like about the show.
And maybe it's not filler for you either, because I think you're actually warming up to this actual moment.
I don't go in with a plan.
Well, that's obvious.
I have often given, uh, given updates about my, my, uh, my mental health on his show. That's which I made a joke
about.
But also like Iowa skin, if you YouTube, Iowa skin depression,
me on Rogan's the first thing that comes up.
So I know that it's like relevant to people that need help.
So I, I, I, now it's just like kind of a segment, like we talk about mental health, but, but yeah, it's like,
You can't go in with a plan.
It's not, it's literally two guys hanging out.
That's the appeal of the show, which is what makes the thing of like, we need Joe to be informationally, uh, you know, upright.
Well, this is what I'm getting to, is that for the first time, I think I hear Rogan as many hear him.
A concerned friend or somebody who has that capacity, he can listen, he can disclose things.
But to me, it makes things even more complicated because what happens when that warmth and that, you know, I'm-just-a-guy quality makes his thoughts, his off-the-cuff thoughts on vaccines or his guest's thoughts on drag queens seem more reasonable, right?
It's like, There's this double-edged thing, like, it was a great moment listening to that half hour where I'm like, wow, I'm hearing something real happen between two human beings, but then the surrounding context is like... And just for insight, if people don't want to listen to it, there was just kindness and empathy both ways.
Yeah, exactly.
mental health. Yes, yes. And it was kind of extraordinary.
And concern and tenderness.
Yeah. And it was actually really, really sweet. It was really encouraging to listen to. And
it's like, I'm like more of that. And I'm also worried a little bit about
It's like, is that then the delivery device for, you know, sort of swimming around in, you know, Jamie, what is, you know, we're good guys here.
That's this is a thing.
That's a bone.
I actually have a bone to pick with you guys about this.
You guys are aware of this thing called apophenia?
Yes.
So I feel like sometimes you guys have apophenia.
Yep.
Apophenia, the definition of apophenia is seeing patterns where there are none.
Okay.
It's big on the, it's big.
It's QAnon sort of stock and trade.
Yeah.
Like if you see people like doing the okay, so whatever, any of that stuff, I didn't even want to make the symbol.
Well, it's the map.
It's the map. Everything is connected. Right. So and apophenia is a mental illness where you're
seeing connections that are not there. And I feel like there are times because I know Joe personally
and you're ascribing some motive to him that you call him a Christian nationalist a few weeks ago.
And it was after I said, like, I'm friends with you.
He doesn't have I'm friends with him.
He doesn't have a plan.
And you guys still like, well, we have a podcast where we call people Christian nationalists.
So so like, fuck.
Fuck the facts, Neil.
Fuck the boots on the ground 30 year relationship.
We decided that this guy might be a Christian nationalist and we're just floating that idea.
No, I'm going to go on the record and say that idea.
Okay.
Joe Rogan.
Joe Rogan is definitely not a Christian nationalist.
I'm a hundred percent sure Joe Rogan is not a Christian.
You're thinking about the bonus.
Okay, well didn't you float the idea that he was, he was doing it, he was parroting white Christian national talking points for his viewership?
No, what we were saying was there's a pattern of a number of significant influencers who are making confessions of faith right now.
There's a pattern, there's a pattern.
I'm absolutely right so far, go on.
Well, if you see a trend, you see a trend.
Like, you've got Russell Brand, you've got Huberman.
Who was the other one, Derek?
There was four, right?
No, there was three.
There was three.
And then, oh, and then there's Peterson, and then there's Peterson, right?
And it's like, okay, if something gets into the water where suddenly the infosphere erupts with a number of people getting to sort of like the end point, perhaps, of their influence, which has got to be God, what's happening?
That's what the reflection was about.
It wasn't wasn't Joe Rogan's a Christian nationalist.
It's like, right.
But I'm telling you that joke.
I made that same joke on The Daily Show three years ago.
It was Republicans need Jesus.
And I went through it that they need.
And why are you of all people saying they need just he was just making the joke, which is the thing I emailed you guys.
I was like, he's not a Christian nationalist.
He's making a joke.
And then you did it again.
And I was like, oh, these guys are apophenia.
No, that you mean liar.
You mean liar.
Uh, well, yeah, I hate to put that, that that's not even a liar.
It's just, I, I find a, the bias of journalism is, I don't know, man, I set up a whole framework around this.
Sure.
So I don't want to, I pitched it to my editor.
Let me just get this story out.
That's my, that's the, and I really respect journalism legitimately and like donate to fucking ProPublica and all that shit.
So, What I'm saying is, but my experience of journalism where it is very human and very biased is, ah, come on, man.
I got to get this story out.
I just want to see the quote where one of us said that Joe Rogan's a Christian nationalist, because I don't recall this.
Christian nationalism is a specific form of Christianity geared toward taking over the government.
We never made that claim about Joe Rogan.
Talking about God and some sort of coming to Jesus moment, we did reference, but we never made that claim about Christian nationalism.
I'm not on here to defend, you know, I came on this podcast to defend Joe and attack your advertising.
That was your plan.
I thought you had no plan.
I had a plan for this one.
Lesson learned.
Well, well, hold on a second, because I think, I think part of what's also going on is that during that period, we're looking at people like Russell Brand, who in a moment of intense media crisis, suddenly starts talking about Christianity.
And I think, who was it who went on Rogan and had a similar moment?
I don't know specifically.
Well, it definitely wasn't my episode, because I don't fucking work for your podcast.
Yes, that's a thing people do.
I've seen that, but Joe's not very tactical.
That's what I'm saying.
Like, I'm sorry to tell you, he's just not tactical in that regard.
And if he is, he's a genius at hiding it.
Because again, I know firsthand, that guy's got the biggest podcast on earth.
You know how you get on it?
You text him and say, hey man, I'm going to be in Austin on Thursday.
And then he texts you back.
There's not a team.
There's not a, I'm running this Christian nationalist narrative right now, Neil.
So you're not going to fit in.
It's just like, Hey man, come by.
And I say that as someone who was on one of his first 20 episodes and his 2000, there's no, uh, overarching framework.
If he's, if he's becoming, like I said, if he's becoming more Republican, that sort of money will do that to you.
Yeah.
I just saw some apophenia, and I saw a pattern, and maybe I'm an apopheniac, and I have apophenia for apophenia.
You are 100% right that doing what we do, that is an occupational hazard.
So your critique is well taken.
I'm raising a lot of good questions, guys, and that's all I'm here to do.
Yeah.
I report, they decide.
In that Laughing Matters documentary, Barron Vaughn says, anxiety is our creative talent.
And it sounds like you have softened that up quite a bit.
That's not really what's beating you over the head anymore.
But I'm wondering, in that comedic space where you're doing these podcasts, you're speaking with Maren, you're speaking with Rogan, is there a kind of anxiety About the world that you're all trying to deal with?
And is that kind of a doorway through which, you know, the conspiratorial mind can take root or blossom?
I think the thing that maybe you guys are underappreciate, or I think people in general may underappreciate, is You know, a bigger thread in any one I know, comedian, artist, et cetera, et cetera.
I would say their number one thing is ambition and its status.
And it even goes to the people, all the trauma flexors on Instagram and TikTok.
They want status, you know, they want whether it's clicks, money, whatever.
And I say this about Elle and Dave, the biggest, the smallest, they just want status.
And I think the mental illness part, most of these people are way more ambitious than they are depressed or anxious.
And I put myself in that category.
Even part of the reason I did three mics was because I wasn't getting much traction just doing standup.
And it wasn't even that conscious.
But it was a thing of like, what am I doing that I, what could I do differently?
And I was like, I think the problem is I'm not very likable and I should explain to people why that is.
And that's sort of the impetus for the show, for Three Mikes.
Now I'm just pure likability.
Um, so I don't have to do any emo stuff, but, but I'm saying like, and I didn't use mental health as a crutch for, because I didn't think it would work, but I didn't really think about, I just thought like, that's a different thing to do.
And I did it for status.
And here's the good and bad news.
I got more status from it.
And I think that's the thing.
That's sort of the secret sauce of anybody.
And that goes to that inventors and athletes thing is it's all status seeking.
And I would almost argue that I haven't listened to every episode, but like most of the people you're covering are just seeking status.
Thank you for listening to another episode of Conspirituality.
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