Brief: Being Muslim Amidst the Wars (w/Dr. Taslim Alani-Verjee)
Dr. Taslim Alani-Verjee joined us last January for a Brief on Jordan Peterson’s professional status as a shitposting registered psychologist. She returned for Episode 141 on whether it makes sense that the Canadian Medical Assistance in Dying act is fuelling conspiracy theories about state neglect.
Today she returns, as a psychologist and as a practicing Muslim, to discuss with Matthew how it feels to see her community drawn into culture war territory over sex ed and gender issues. Matthew also asks about her clinical practice with Muslim and Jewish clients in the shadow of the current Israel-Gaza war. This episode was recorded in November, but the themes are as current as ever.
Show Notes
Dr. Taslim Alani-Verjee
Brief: Is Jordan Peterson Really a Licensed Psychologist? — Conspirituality
141: Does Canada Want Suffering Citizens to Die? (w/Taslim Alani-Verjee)
Hate on Display at the 1 Million March 4 Children Rally in Calgary
Cross-country rallies against 'gender ideology' in schools meet with counter-protests
Statement by MAC on Statements by Canadian Leaders and School Boards on Recent Protests
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Hey everyone, welcome to Conspirituality, where we investigate the intersection of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience, and authoritarian extremism.
And I'll add to that tagline today how amidst all the religious abstraction and polarization and vitriol gamified by our media landscape, regular religious people are living regular lives.
I'm Matthew Remsky.
We are on Instagram at ConspiritualityPod, and you can access all our episodes ad-free, plus our Monday bonus episodes through Patreon or Apple subscriptions.
Today, I have a return guest, Dr. Theslam Alaniverji, who joined us last January for a brief on Jordan Peterson's professional status as a shitposting registered psychologist here in Ontario, And then for episode 141 on whether it makes sense that the Canadian Medical Assistance in Dying Act is fueling conspiracy theories about state neglect.
Today, I'll be asking her, as a psychologist and as a practicing Muslim woman, how it feels to see her community drawn into culture war territory, including in the shadow of the current Israel-Gaza war.
Now, we recorded this back in November, but the themes are as current as ever.
Dr. Theslam Alani Vergy, welcome back to Conspirituality Podcast.
Thank you for having me, Matthew.
Thankfully, we are not going to talk about Jordan Peterson today.
I mean, he might come up.
We're not going to talk about the professional ramifications of his online harassment of minorities while being a licensed psychologist in Ontario.
But today, the subject I think is more difficult.
Back in September of this year, I reached out to you in your role as both a psychologist and as a Muslim community member here in Toronto to discuss a new and I would say growing tension.
I wanted to understand how some Muslim influencers or communities are being drawn into US-style conservative culture war territory, particularly regarding anti-LGBTQI discourse.
In some cases, I think this has led to the forging of unfortunate alliances between ideologues.
So that's why I reached out, and so we'll get to that in a moment.
However, since I reached out, October 7th happened.
Hamas fighters crossed from Gaza into Israel and killed civilians and military personnel.
The consensus number is 1,400 dead.
And that has opened a new front in the war over the long-contested status of both Israel and Palestine.
Israel has responded by killing over 9,000 Palestinians as of this moment in their stated goal of eliminating Hamas, and the fire is spreading in the region.
Islamophobia and antisemitism are both on the rise globally, and we're seeing the effects of this here in our city with intense protests erupting downtown on a near daily basis.
So we did not expect to be talking about this, but I don't think we can put it aside.
I think in some ways it might be the macrocosm to the microcosm issues we'll be discussing today.
Also, I should note that today is November 3rd and conditions may well change before this publishes, so without presuming to know the future or to know how any of this is going or to have any certain answer, I thought I'd just start by asking what has life and work been like for you recently as a Muslim psychologist in the shadow of these events?
Yeah, thanks for that, Matthew.
It has been hard, terribly hard.
I think as the political situation has evolved, I have become keenly aware of how it's affecting me emotionally.
There was a good week where I was just not the best version of myself, kind of just snapping at everybody, and later came to realize that I was grieving, and I was scared, and I was hurt.
When it comes to my professional work, you know, it is my job to hold space for people to validate their grief, to validate their distress.
In a lot of ways, I feel fortunate that many of my clients hold the same political views that I do.
And so in that sense, it hasn't been very often that it has been my job to hold space for someone who is saying hateful things.
But I have been around many people at this point who have very extreme views, who, you know, have every right to be feeling threatened right now.
But that feeling of threat is really, really isolating and marginalizing to many of us who are also feeling threatened.
The situation has become polarized and it has become so difficult to have peaceful, helpful dialogue for us to see each other's perspectives.
And as someone who likes things to be peaceful.
It has been challenging both professionally and personally.
So the conflict is coming up in sessions, but it sounds like you're able to keep focus on the
therapeutic essentials.
I think with every single client on my roster right now, the political situation has come up.
We've had very political conversations because so many of the clients that I see have marginalized identities, whether they are Jewish, whether they are Muslim, whether they are from Israel or from Palestine.
These patterns have happened in so many other parts of the world that people are being reminded of their grief when tuning in, when listening, when having conversations with others.
They're realizing that in the workplace they no longer feel safe to have an opinion or they're feeling pressure to have a stance on something that feels really really unsafe for them to share with others.
And so while the politics of it perhaps are not directly related to therapy, there are so many surrounding factors that very much are related to therapy.
Well, thank you for opening that way.
I think that it would have been strange to not have that umbrella over our conversation or that shadow.
So, keeping all of this in mind, I want to backtrack to our original topic and plan.
Back on September 20th, a coalition of right-wing groups staged a nationwide demonstration here in Canada against what they call gender ideology in school curricula.
Now, this would include subjects like homosexuality, gender identity, and masturbation.
This was called the One Million March, and it echoed previous initiatives in right-wing US politics that have built on various conspiracy theories, some of which have been famously boosted by our friend Jordan Peterson.
That queer theory, for example, or trans activism is designed to groom and sexualize and indoctrinate and mutilate children.
And destroy traditional families and then civilization at large.
Now, the protest was attended by participants of the previous trucker convoy, but it also drew in some Muslim parental rights activists.
Now I have parental rights in quotes in my text here because it's not a legal category in either the US or Canada.
The fact that Muslim groups participated got wide exposure.
Mainly because in one video from the Calgary Gathering, a local Muslim leader is seen handing a microphone to a child, who's maybe eight years old, who announces very loudly that the gays are psychopaths.
It was a brutal scene, and that video went viral.
Now, that's an extreme view, it's an extreme occurrence, and it's ventriloquized through the mouth of a child who obviously doesn't know what they are saying, and it's all motivated by very toxic politics.
It's loud, but I also believe it's in a minority view.
And so I wanted to start by asking if you could speak generally to your perspective as a Muslim community member.
About how you interact with and respond to these issues of progressive sexual education and public schooling.
You know, at the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their perspectives.
But everyone is also entitled to be able to live, in this country at least, safely.
And that means inclusivity.
So when we think about sexual education in public schools, here's what we know.
We know that historically, folks who identify as trans have been left out of conversations.
We also know that there are teachers just like there are humans who have very homophobic, transphobic perspectives.
And so when we have young people in a public school setting whose names and identities are not only not being acknowledged but are being denied, that is harmful.
Now, when we talk about what's going on around these conflicting voices, I think that it's important to remember that when we have extreme positions on something, usually it leads to more extreme responses.
When we're talking about whether it is Muslims in Canada, whether it is folks who identify within 2SLGBTQ plus communities, we're talking about marginalized groups of people.
People who have often felt rightfully so, that their powers are taken away, that they are silenced, that they are not seen as valuable or as important as other peoples in this society.
And so when new things changes are being implemented that conflict with our own
values and beliefs, this can make us feel that much more threatened.
When we're feeling threatened, we're much more likely to take those extreme stances
and not be open to having productive dialogue with one another.
And so we see here definitely a very extreme, very harmful view of what's going on in the sexual
education curriculum within the public schools.
I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it.
What I would say is that people are entitled to their perspectives.
But ideally those perspectives would be used to have a dialogue so that we can understand each other so that we can find a way where everyone feels safe and everyone feels included.
But that's not what's happening here.
And it is harmful not only for these young Muslim children who are perhaps getting these really extreme and dangerous views of you know, gender diversity and sexual diversity, but even
more so for the young people who identify as 2SLGBTQ+, who are being reminded that the world
continues to see them as less valuable, less worthy, or perhaps even like that they shouldn't exist,
that their identity doesn't exist.
And we know that that leads to mental health difficulties.
It leads to higher rates of suicide.
And this is something that we actually have the ability to do something about.
And so it's really unfortunate that these extreme stances are being taken.
Often the way these conversations are framed is in relation to the relative power and social status of women in Muslim communities around the world.
From the wearing of the hijab, to having the right to drive, to marital and educational restrictions, to female genital mutilation, which is not a Muslim practice, but it is practiced in some Muslim communities.
What has your journey been like in that territory as a woman, as a Muslim, and as a psychologist?
I think often the world sees Muslim women as victims of tradition, victims of patriarchy, and I think that that's a really unfortunate way of seeing things.
Muslim women are diverse, just like anyone else is diverse, and so When the world outside of Muslim communities is seeing women as victims, as individuals who are disempowered, who have their rights and power taken away from them, it continues to villainize Muslim traditions, Muslim communities, and Muslim culture.
And so as an individual, as a Muslim, as a woman, as also a professional, a psychologist, someone who in some ways has a lot of power, it's really difficult for me to watch those on the outside who think that they are doing things to empower women but really what they're doing is not actually seeing the choice and the power that comes with those things.
Now You know, when I think about parts of the world in which women are not permitted to drive.
Yeah, I obviously have feelings about that when women, perhaps women's rights to do what they want to and what they need to with their body are taken away.
I also have feelings about that.
I'm allowed to have feelings about that but I also know that I don't live in that part of the world.
I don't actually know what's going on for those women and so I need to know my role and have a bit of humility as opposed to assuming that I know what's right for anyone or I know what a person should or should not have access to.
I think that's a very, it's a very privileged stance and it's a very oppressive stance.
In response to the protests back in September, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said, quote, transphobia, homophobia and biphobia have no place in this country.
We strongly condemn this hate and its manifestations, and we stand united in support of 2SLGBTQI plus Canadians across the country.
You are valid and you are valued.
Immediately, many right-wing media sources framed this statement as Islamophobic because of the presence of some Muslim communities and their involvement in the protests.
So how does that framing strike you?
These stances against sexual education in the public school system are not specifically a Muslim concern, right?
There are lots of religious and non-religious groups who have concerns with the sexual education curriculum in the public schools.
And so I think it is Interesting that right-wing groups kind of jumped on the Islamophobic part of it and that the world kind of ran with it, or perhaps my tiny world in Canada ran with it.
And I think it does kind of add fuel to the fire.
Now, I do want to spend a second just to talk about this idea that there's no place for someone in Canada if they have values that don't align with yours.
While I would agree that transphobia, homophobia, hateful speech ideally would not be a part of this country, It is.
When our Prime Minister makes a stance that there is no room for someone in a country, given that we also celebrate diversity in this country, that's also problematic.
It continues to marginalize people who are trying to figure it out.
It continues to add extreme views, which shuts down dialogue.
So I understand why our Prime Minister would have made the stance that he did.
If I were prime minister, I probably also would have made such a stance.
But what that kind of language does is it continues to make people feel like this can't ever be their home, no matter how much they try to integrate, no matter how much they try to assimilate, that Canada will not be their home if they don't agree with something or if they don't understand something.
And I think that continues to bring these extreme stances to the fore and it continues to shut down dialogue.
So you're making an important distinction here between civil and political discourse and a kind of developmental understanding of how a person or a community would come to integrate with, you know, a society in which transphobia, homophobia, and biphobia were not part of the agenda.
How could he have said it differently, do you think?
Because he's saying these behaviors have no place in this country.
But I think what I'm hearing you say is that if a person hears that their values are being described as Disgusting or hateful, whether they're right or wrong, they will respond poorly to that characterization.
Yeah, I think that's exactly it, Matthew.
I mean, we know, we know that there is transphobia, homophobia, biphobia in this country.
We know there's antisemitism in this country.
We know there's Islamophobia in this country.
We know that these things exist.
When we can remind people That there is room for all in this country and that our country is better when we're all working together to understand each other, that we're respecting each other's differences in identity and still celebrating the diversity and the value that each one of us has, regardless of whether we agree with how a person lives their life or not.
That makes for a more inclusive country.
And when we think about it, that is really what Canada aims to strive for.
But when our Prime Minister Again, with good reason, it just continues to create situations in which the responses are going to be extreme and people will feel badly.
One of our very beloved guests on this show is the trans journalist Bo Brink, who makes Civil rights argument in this vein about trans rights, saying very clearly, I don't actually care whether, you know, evangelical Christians think I'm deluded or evil or, you know,
Bad in some way.
What I care about is my civil rights.
I want to be treated as though my beliefs do not matter to the extent that, you know, they remain harmless to other people.
And it sounds like you're walking that same line somewhat.
Yeah, I would agree.
We want to give transphobia and homophobia some sort of pass, but that when you're actually, and this is why, you know, there's a difference between politicians and psychologists, I suppose, but the psychologist is going to say when you're actually trying to strengthen relationships, you have to be really careful about Shaming people for values that they believe are righteous, maybe they've had since birth, you know, that they never really had any choice but to develop.
Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that.
You know, at the end of the day, if we bring it back to what's going on, at least in my understanding of the sexual education system or the sexual education curriculum in the public school system, we're not talking about values and beliefs being shoved down people's throats, right?
And it sounds as though this is what a lot of people are fearing or perhaps advocating against.
From what I understand about the sexual education curriculum in the public school, it's a reminder that there are diverse ways of loving and diverse ways of being.
And this idea that, you know, we are introducing very sexual content at a very young age, it's It's deceiving, right?
From a very young age, we're reading about families with moms and dads who love each other.
If we're going to say that talking about two dads who love each other is now sexualized, why wasn't the mom and dad sexualized?
It's very polarized.
It's deceiving.
But for those who have concerns about it, it is allowed to be scary.
It is allowed to be concerning.
But the way that it is being responded to, and I would say in some ways co-opted for perhaps another agenda, is harmful to a lot of people who already experience a lot of vulnerability and a lot of marginalization.
So that brings us to a statement that was released by the Muslim Association of Canada on September 25th.
So in part it states, on Wednesday, September 20th, thousands of Muslims joined by other faith-based groups, as you point out Taslim, protested to raise their concerns, calling for their rights as parents in relation to their children's education.
Their intent was to be heard, not to sow division.
Parents should have the absolute right to advocate for the well-being of their children.
The statements from Canadian leaders and school boards increase the potential for Muslim children
to face increased bullying and harassment in schools, both by educators and peers,
a trend that's already distressingly escalating. Civil rights organizations and Muslim organizations
across the country have documented numerous validated accounts detailing situations where
children have been coerced into activities that contradict their faith or where parents teaching
religious values to their offspring have been unfairly attacked. We call on politicians and
school boards, beginning with Prime Minister Trudeau, to retract their deeply inflammatory
and divisive comments and issue an apology to the thousands of Canadian parents hurt by these
comments. Okay, so that's a lot.
not.
Bye.
First of all, as you help me sort through this, what is the Muslim Association of Canada and who do they speak for?
I would say prior to September 25th, I didn't know anything about the Muslim Association of Canada.
So not that I am an expert in all things or know about all Muslim groups, but I would say that this is not a group that I think has been widely outspoken, at least in my circle in the So I'm going to contextualize my answer with this.
So from what I know, which is just a visit to the Muslim Association of Canada website, they are a non-profit group that is looking to help maintain the identity of Muslims within Canada while also Remembering that there is a distinct identity within that.
Now, who do they speak for?
It sounds like perhaps some individuals with more conservative beliefs about what Muslim identity is.
But I mean, even what conservative beliefs are, it's questionable to me.
So that's as far as my answer can go with that one, Matthew.
Given what we've said in our prior conversation, I'm looking at this a little bit more closely and understanding more the mismatch that you're describing between Trudeau's, you know, attempt at drawing a boundary with, you know, the choice of a kind of language that proves to be less than diplomatic And how he's being responded to.
But let me just pick some things out of the statement to run by you.
So they say that parents should have the absolute right to advocate for the well-being of their children.
I guess that stops short of the emerging parental rights argument that doesn't talk about, you know, the right to advocate, but the right to direct their children's education.
So it's not an extreme statement, but they are coming into confrontation with the notion of having a public school curriculum.
So is that a theme that you have?
That's a really helpful thing to highlight, Matthew.
So, I think, you know, as someone who is a mother, I would want to say that I should have the absolute right to advocate for my child's well-being.
That advocacy has to be informed, and it has to be informed not just by what I want for my child, but also what my child will want and need in the future to be the best version of themselves.
And if I am so firmly and rigidly stuck in an idea of what my child should be, I'm not going to be able to think about what might actually be Best for my child from their perspective, and I think that may be part of what's going on here However, Matthew asked me that question again in case I didn't actually answer it.
Maybe let's say from From a religious perspective.
Is there a generalized sense that you have from your scriptural heritage or from your practice community of how The Muslim orients themselves towards public education in, you know, a modern Western democracy.
Is there a general sort of approach there?
Or are there aphorisms that come into play?
Do you know what I mean?
I think because we're talking about a really diverse religion and so many diverse interpretations, there wouldn't be a stance on public education.
But what we do know is that the Qur'an, the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, those are the absolute teachings.
From my understanding of those teachings, we respect one another, we recognize that there is diversity, and we celebrate that diversity as opportunities to learn from one another.
We do not harm others.
We defend ourselves when our safety is at risk, but outside of that, There's no room for violence, there's no room for harm to others.
Now take it to the public school system and the context here, what I would also say is that there is a pretty keen understanding that we find success, it is most effective to adhere to the laws of the land that you live.
Now, if the laws of the land that you live are infringing on your rights, you do have the ability to advocate.
But ideally, that advocacy is not causing harm to other people at the same time.
And so we also have to recognize that each person, regardless of whether they are Muslim or not, have worth and are deserving of dignity and respect.
And I think this is where some of this comes in conflict with what, at least in my interpretation, what it means to be a Muslim.
It's a perfect way to talk about the next thing that comes up in this statement.
Because as you speak about the boundary between advocating for your own safety and making sure that you don't harm others, the MAC goes on to say the statements from Canadian leaders and school boards increase the potential for Muslim children to face increased bullying and harassment in schools, both by educators and peers.
And what is so tangled and messy here is that The Prime Minister and everybody who gave a statement against this, the sentiments evoked in this protest, made their statements in defense of trans people and gay people being bullied and harassed in schools.
And so, coming back to the top of your remarks, I think this is an instance in which, you Minority experience of Islamophobia is intersecting with the minority experience of, you know, marginalization as a queer person and producing this real confusion, right?
Absolutely.
When we think about Islamophobia, it is real.
It does contribute to bullying.
We also have seen in the news where teachers are attacking students who are sharing concerns about whether it's the curriculum in their schools or celebrations in their schools.
And again, all of these contribute to a shutdown of dialogue and young people who continue to feel as though their perspectives, their needs, their value, their identity is not only not important, but is actually dismissed by people who are supposed to be in power, people who are supposed to have authority.
So it has been a particularly vulnerable time for Muslims across the world, but especially young Muslims in school.
Especially when there is an assumption around what that young Muslim person's politics around these things is going to be, often without even having a conversation with that young person.
Does it make sense to you that Muslim social conservatives would be attracted to or recruited into something like the anti-trans movement?
Sure!
Yeah, I think so.
And I think, you know, part of this comes from a desire to have more power in one's voice, right?
And I imagine there has been quite a Quite a long time in which there are groups of people who have been advocating for a change in the public school curriculum or a change in the ways in which we talk about sexual education.
But when our voices are not heard, or we feel as though our voices are not heard, it does in a lot of ways become more effective to join voices with other groups, even if those groups are not the greatest voices to join.
Well, I wanted to ask about that because I wonder whether when this happens, the leaders who go that way are making a kind of Faustian bargain in the sense that, you know, they might gain a sense of personal or perhaps localized power by whipping up a particular sentiment, but their new allies, you know, the folks that, you know, gathered in Calgary shoulder-to-shoulder with Muslim activists, This is a great question.
going to fight for them on any broader social or political issue?
This is a great question.
One thing that I am hesitant to buy into is this idea that folks are not really aware
of the decisions that they're making.
They might be less aware of the consequences of their decisions, but you know why individuals are making the decisions that they're making?
I don't know.
I think it's quite possible that there is some intention and thought in who we become allies with, but not always.
Okay, let me just pause there because I think that's an important corrective for me because it's actually a patronizing attitude to say, oh, you know, these immigrant communities, they don't know who they're getting into bed with.
They're vulnerable and they're being taken advantage of by white nationalists.
But actually, you're saying that they might be just as politically savvy as anybody else.
I think subconsciously, or perhaps consciously, we're all looking to gain more power, especially when we have a marginalized identity, especially when we feel as though our power is being threatened, who wouldn't want to access power in whatever ways they can.
Now whether this is an intentional cognitive plan that a person has to engage in this kind of exchange of giving up some things that are important to gain others.
I don't know and I don't know that.
I could say with any kind of confidence that any or all of us engage in that in a really intentional way, but it is quite possible that subconsciously this is what's happening.
However, to suggest that there is no awareness across all people or that there is awareness across all people, I think, would take away from the diversity of the mind.
A lot of what we're talking about is the sort of function and the social outcomes of distrust and anxiety.
And what we found in our study of conspiracism is that when social distrust is high, the tendency for very reactive and reactionary thinking is also high.
And that sometimes there is a very reasonable distrust of the state's ability and will to protect and serve its people.
This general feeling of a lack of care, for example, can increase things like vaccine hesitancy.
And I'm choosing that as an example because we saw that in a Muslim community amongst the Somalians of Minnesota in the late 1990s.
So I'm wondering if a generalized sense of distrust might be where Muslim communities are also vulnerable to conspiracy theories.
You know, I think that there is at least some justification to distrust of the state.
The state continues to incarcerate groups of people in disproportionate ways.
The state continues, or until very recently, continue to take children away from mothers and parents before there were any notable concerns with a person's ability to parent.
So, this idea that groups who experience marginalization, whether specifically Muslim communities or not, would have reason to have distrust in the state, I think is a very reasonable thing to think about.
Now, does that make a group more vulnerable to conspiracy theories?
I think it depends on how those conspiracy theories are being presented and by whom.
If there is the case in which there is distrust by the state and the state is pushing people in kind of a shaming way to engage in some sort of behavior.
I do think that there is going to be much more vulnerability to not only that pushback, but to conspiracy theories around the harms of those very things that the state is encouraging.
And so, you know, you give the example of vaccination or vaccine hesitancy, but I think we saw that happen with COVID as well, where the state was very much pushing and shaming.
And people don't like that.
And people whose power continues to be taken away.
So, Taslim, this has all been very heavy and so I wanted to finish up on a lighter note and ask you about what are some of the things that you love about Islam and your identity as a Muslim?
You know, I and I can only speak for myself in this, which you know that I'm only speaking for myself anyway.
But, you know, one of the things that deeply aligns with my values is that love is a blessing.
Love is always a blessing.
And so regardless of who we love or how we love, love is going to be a blessing.
When you say it's a blessing, you mean that it comes from the divine or that it's a sign of God's presence?
Absolutely.
Yep.
And, you know, in the way that I have learned about my faith, love is also one of the ways that we get closer to the divine.
And so by really allowing ourselves to lean into love, to allow love to be present, that is God's presence around us.
Now we may as individuals have perspectives on how we should react or behave in response to that love and everyone is allowed to have their own perspectives on that.
However the idea that love is in and of itself a blessing I think is such a beautiful thing and this perhaps brings me to my second point which is That in Islam, we view each and every single person as worthy in the eyes of God.
And when we see each and every single person as worthy in the eyes of God, and we see also that each and every single person is flawed, it really reminds us to check ourselves before we go ahead and judge other people.
Which also means that every single person is allowed to live their life exactly the way that they want to, as long as it is not infringing on the rights or harming another person.
And just to be clear, you were very careful to say, I'll speak for myself, but when you do speak of Islam in a very universalist way, we do know that there are iterations of Islam that are exclusive or exclusionary just like any other religious tradition.
So, does that disquiet you or do you simply go forward in your life with, well, this is my best understanding of it, I know people disagree?
That is what it has to be for me, right?
At the end of the day, people will...
People will disagree.
People will disagree with how I live my life, how I use my voice.
People will disagree with how I dress, and they are allowed to.
But this is also, and if we can take it back to the beginning of this conversation when we were talking about what's going on in Israel and in Palestine, I have been Very much reminded more recently of the bubble I've created in my life for myself.
I have surrounded myself with people who accept me and value me for my values and beliefs and I'm fortunate enough for the most part to interact Mostly with individuals who perceive me in that way, which means I don't have to engage in as much self-monitoring.
I don't have to feel unsafe most of the time, but this particular political situation has made it quite harmful for me to use my voice, or perhaps scary and threatening to use my voice in the way that I usually would.
There have been conversations that I, like every fiber in my being, has told me to respond, to share my perspective, And I have been also reminded of, in comparison to those that I'm interacting with in those conversations, that I do have less power, that I could be potentially more threatened.
And so, going back to the original question, Matthew, yes, when I say these things about Islam, they are my interpretation.
People do have different interpretations, and most of the time, the people I interact with are fine with them.
And if they're not, That's fine too and I can have those conversations but those conversations only feel safe when I am able to feel safe and if I'm not able to feel safe these conversations don't happen.
There's a social safety that you're describing that by its nature perhaps allows or even encourages a more generous or inclusive expression or understanding of Islam.
I mean we can't we can't cleanly separate Culture from religion.
However, in the ways that I have learned about Islam, Islam has always been that way.
So this is not necessarily a more progressive iteration of Islam.
This is the original Islam as I understand it.
But I don't think that everyone would see it that way.
Well, there's a difference between the authentic, personal, historical religion that you grew up with and then what historians do with the timeline.
Yeah.
And I think we are rarely clear about that distinction.
And I think many conversations erupt into arguments when one person is speaking about what they have learned.
In an earnest way versus the second person's discussion of what they know from the historical record or from the internet or from memes or whatever.
One more thing about the presence of love being indicative of the presence or the activity of God.
Are you literally saying when people fall in love with each other?
In a very material way, they are attracted, they want to build something together.
Whatever it is they do when they personally love each other, that itself is a sign of God's presence.
Yeah, I would say so.
So it's this idea that when there is true, authentic love, souls are connected.
And when souls are connected, there is the presence of God in that soul connection.
It's a beautiful and rare thing.
And when we can open ourselves to think beyond ourselves, we are opening ourselves to experience God in more ways.
I guess I'm focusing on that because I grew up Catholic and I can't think of anything similar in the theology that I was educated in.
We had the notion of grace or the mysterious movement of God through particular events and perhaps serendipitous occurrences.
Nobody ever told me that if I felt an upswelling of love while I was listening to music or if I fell in love with a person in high school or later that that was actually evidence for God's presence, that would have been a very different world.
And I think that if what you're saying is relatively consistent for practitioners of Islam, then it sounds like there's a tool there for reconciliation and peacemaking.
I think that love in its true and authentic form requires us to look beyond the self.
It is when we are stuck in looking just within ourselves that we lose sight of love, but we also lose sight of God, right?
And so we can also think about it within the concept of ego.
When we have ego, we are more disconnected from God.
When we can bring that down, We allow ourselves to be more open to the experiences around us, including that connection of love.
Now it is that connection of love specifically that I am talking about, but at least in my understanding of Islam, any single thing that we are looking at is a representation of God.
And so the more we open our hearts, the more we open ourselves to seeing and experiencing manifestations of God and all of those bring us closer to God.
Veslam, thank you so much for taking the time today.