With guests: Philip Deslippe, Jules Hartley, Janja Lalich, and Stacie StukinWe’ve convened an expert panel this week to remember and discuss Katie Griggs, aka GJ. She died in an LA hospital on the evening of August 1st. LA Magazine was the first outlet to confirm the death with the RA MA Institute, which Griggs co-founded in Venice, CA.The cause of death has not been confirmed, but according to a eulogy film put out by the RA MA Institute, Griggs reportedly broke her ankle in Berlin on July 11th, and on the 15th had surgery to repair it in Los Angeles. Subsequently, she developed a pulmonary embolism, which proved fatal.In episodes 36 and 37, Philip and Stacie joined me to discuss Griggs’s adopted culture and religion, Kundalini Yoga, and where she stood in relation to the legacy of KY’s abusive founder, Yogi Bhajan. They are uniquely equipped for that background: Philip is an expert in KY history, and Stacie has published excellent investigative work on the #metoo wave that swept through the community to uncover long-suppressed stories of Bhajan’s abuses.Joining us today to dig even deeper are former Kundalini Yoga student Jules Hartley, and renowned cult expert Janja Lalich. In our earlier episodes, we discussed how Griggs went on the offensive in the midst of the Kundalini abuse scandal, publicly attacking Bhajan’s survivors. We also discussed how she quickly pivoted into conspiracy theories about COVID and BLM when the pandemic hit. We also discussed the culture and cultural impact of Griggs’s RA MA Institute.We continue that discussion in somber tones today.Show NotesPhilip Deslippe’s websiteJules Hartley on IMDBJanja Lalich’s website and 2021 Recommended Reading ListStacie Stukin on TwitterLA Magazine Griggs death noticeInside the Dubious World of RA MA Yoga, and Its Girl Boss Guru to the Stars — Cassidy George, VICEGuru Jagat Dies. A Saint Is Born. | by Matthew Remski | Aug, 2021 | MediumGuru Jagat Mourned in Person with Breathing Exercises, No Masks — Matthew Remski(PDF) From Maharaj to Mahan Tantric: The Construction of Yogi Bhajan’s Kundalini Yoga — Philip Deslippe
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Welcome to a special episode of Conspiratuality Podcast.
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Episode 64, Remembering Guru Jagat with Philip Deeslip, Jules Hartley, John Jalalich, and Stacey Stukin.
We've convened an expert panel this week to remember and discuss Katie Griggs, also known as Guru Jagat.
She died in an L.A.
hospital on the evening of August 1st.
L.A.
Magazine was the first outlet to confirm the death with the Rama Institute, which Griggs co-founded in Venice, California.
The cause of death has not been confirmed, but according to a eulogy film put out by the Rama Institute, Griggs reportedly broke her ankle in Berlin on July 11th, and on the 15th had surgery to repair it in LA.
Subsequently, she developed a pulmonary embolism, which proved fatal.
In episodes 36 and 37, Philip and Stacey joined me to discuss Griggs' adopted culture and religion, Kundalini Yoga, and where she stood in relation to the legacy of Kundalini Yoga's abusive founder, Yogi Bhajan.
They're both uniquely equipped for that background.
Philip is an expert in kundalini yoga history, and Stacey has published excellent investigative work on the Me Too wave that swept through the community to uncover long-suppressed stories of bhajans abuses.
Joining us today to dig even deeper, our former kundalini yoga student Jules Hartley and renowned cult expert Janja Lalic.
In our earlier episodes, we discussed how Griggs went on the offensive in the midst of the Kundalini abuse scandal, publicly attacking Bhajan's survivors.
We also discussed how she quickly pivoted into conspiracy theories about COVID and BLM when the pandemic hit.
We also discussed the culture and cultural impact of Griggs' Rama Institute.
We continue that discussion in somber tones today.
- - Philip Deislip is a doctoral candidate in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara, who has written on the history of modern yoga and 3HO, Welcome, Phillip.
Thanks for having me.
Jules Hartley is a clinician in the Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine program at Bastyr University in California.
She also has an extensive career as an actress and spent eight years working and teaching with the 3HO Kundalini Yoga Community in Los Angeles.
Thank you for joining us, Jules.
Thank you for having me.
Janja Lalic, PhD, is Professor Emerita of Sociology and an International Authority on Cults and Coercion.
She has written six books on the subject, including the classic Take Back Your Life, Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships, which was very helpful in my own life.
Her website is JanjaLalic.com.
Welcome, Janja.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
And Stacy Stukin, finally, is a Los Angeles-based essayist and journalist who writes about art, culture, and wellness, often through a feminist lens.
Welcome, Stacy.
Thank you.
Nice to be here.
So, panel, Katie Griggs, also known as Guru Jagat, is now dead.
But her story and its outward ripples will continue.
So I'd like to ask you all some very specific questions about where you think her legacy is going based upon your expertise and what you think we can learn from it.
I've prepared three rounds, so basics, hagiography, and horizons.
And I'll ask each of you specific questions in turn, and there will be room for discussion within and at the end of each round.
So starting with you, Philip, Given your expertise in kundalini yoga culture, from within hours after Griggs died, the Rama Institute has been hosting a 17-day wake for her that's centered on the chanting of Akal.
And it sounds like it's a track produced by White Sun, which is the house band for Rama, which features the Institute's co-founder, Hari Jeevan.
And the lead singer, Guru Jas, the chant is playing on a loop for, you know, it's 24-7.
Can you tell us a little bit about what this ritual means and how the Kundalini Yoga community might be understanding it?
A simple answer would be, what does this ritual mean?
It doesn't mean much of anything.
I think the simplest way to understand Rama and their relationship to 3-H-O is like a photocopy of a counterfeit bill.
I think at this point in 2021, there is an abundance of information out there.
Documented, conclusive, that shows that Yogi Bhajan made it up.
His yoga was a combination of different teachings.
The titles that he claimed, the history that he claimed, it's all made up.
And what I think Rama has done is taken his teachings, his playbook, and then exaggerated it, and extended it, and improvised with it.
It's important to note that even though 3HO and Yogi Bhajan claimed to be Sikhs, claimed to be bearers of authentic Sikh practice, so much of what they do is unintelligible.
It's nonsensical to 99% of the other Sikhs throughout the world.
So Sikhs don't chant Akal.
When someone dies.
But 3H06 do.
They chanted three or five times after someone dies.
So what does Rama do?
It takes this already fabricated thing and it just exaggerates it.
And I think I think one of the important Ways to understand Rama and 3HO, and I think a lot of the modern yoga world, is that it's intelligible when you see it as a way to make money, as everything is an opportunity to practice, to sell something, to further tie and bind people into a community.
And I think this is what Rama has done very well for their own ends, is to just take What 3HO has left, what Yogi Bhajan has left behind, and just exaggerate it, really extend it.
So why chant three or five times when we can chant for 17 days?
Why not have you want to download or buy the Akal CD for your own use?
Now, following up and appealing to this startling image of the photocopy of the counterfeit bill, Are there similarities between this mourning period and the period following the death of Yogi Bhajan?
There are similarities.
I think one critical difference is that Yogi Bhajan was always fantasizing about his death and pushing his death in front of his students from the outset.
I mean, you look at some of his earliest lectures, and the clock is always ticking.
I don't know how much longer I'm going to be here.
I don't know how much more I can give.
People are attacking me.
I could die.
When I interviewed Pamela Dyson, I think this was like 10 years ago, 11 years ago, she talked about that, this kind of death fantasy that he was always putting out there.
And I think that has a lot of Really important consequences.
It protects the leader, in this case, Yogi Bhajan from criticism.
You feel like, like any of us would do if we're around someone who's sick or in pain, we don't want to impose on them.
It also kind of raises the price tag of what someone like Yogi Bhajan is offering.
You know, how do you make, how do you make a $5 sandwich seem twice as good?
Charge $10 for it.
How do you take really basic, Yoga exercises and breathing, how do you make them seem really important?
Well, you put it out there that maybe this teacher has risked his own life to provide these teachings for you.
So there was always that push forward in 3HO.
Yogi Bhajan is sacrificing his health.
He's always under threat and danger.
We need to pray for him.
I think the difference is that with Guru Jagat, this happens in a very, very condensed space of time.
There's a sudden injury, there's a sudden hospitalization, there's a sudden death.
I think that's the only real difference.
And that suddenness is also more, I suppose, extraordinary against the context of the general invincibility of how she is presented to her community and within her community.
I think a good metaphor would be when you cross a border from one country to another, What do you have to do with your money?
You have to change currency.
You can't spend American dollars in Mexico.
You can't spend pesos here in the US.
So I think that's what we're seeing over the long term with Yogi Bhajan during his lifetime and decades of illness and failing health.
And we see the same thing with Guru Jagat.
What do you do when you're selling a technology that supposedly offers hyper awareness and intuition and radiant health?
What do you do when you You trip and you hurt yourself and you get sick and you die.
You're in another place now and so you have to change currency.
So I think that's what you saw with Guru Jagat and you also saw that with Yogi Bhajan.
Suddenly the rationale changes dramatically.
The obvious question with Yogi Bhajan is how is a master of yoga dying young with a repaired heart, someone else's kidney, feet chopped up from diabetes, morbidly obese, non-heavy painkillers?
Well, you explain it another way.
Oh, he's taking on karma.
He's being, you know, he's taking on the burden of his students.
And we see that with Guru Jagat's passing.
Suddenly, you know, she has too much light to hold in her earthly vehicle.
She had fulfilled her destiny.
It's just a radical changing of the terms that people first engage with the yoga and her teachings.
Jules Hartley, our listeners can't see this, we're actually speaking through Riverside and so there's a video feed and you're nodding your head vigorously.
You know this scene, you've moved in these circles.
I had one question planned before, but going from what Philip has said, I'm wondering if There was any kind of sacrificial prediction around the, you know, words about the danger that Guru Jagat or Katie Griggs was putting herself in by being such a burning light.
Is that something that's familiar to you?
The first thing I wanted that came to mind was that, you know, so her teacher, the man behind the curtain, Hari Jiwan, who is still alive, does use that rhetoric of, you know, they're after me, they're attacking me, I'm getting death threats.
Tej had said that when Guru Jagat fell and broke her ankle that it was a psychic slap that made her fall and then in the hours and days following her death there was just this wave of on the internet that truly was
I mean, it was inciting violence and cyberbullying against, for example, the people that had spoken out in the Rama article, and anyone who was a traitor or a hater, former employees being called snowflakes, you know, needing their special piece of this.
Um, I, what, what strikes me so, so much about this whole thing is, you know, if, if we do look at Guru Jagat and Hari G, one of these people as, as being narcissists, which I think to some extent they are, I'm not, I'm not a psychologist, but
You know, this is all still feeding into this giant narcissistic sponge, this production that they have created.
I mean, you know, and it's like, it's almost like it was like the perfect time, you know, because now she can just instantly, now we can even like, you know, put more into this because she's now a saint or whatever.
The production though, I mean the lighting, the music, now the movies.
I do want to talk about that maybe at some point.
The thing that I was nodding the most about was the Yogi Bhajan stuff and the legacy.
There's two points I want to make there.
The first one is that Yogi Bhajan, part of his more lasting legacy was the fact that he had this whole sick and sicky thing with him and under him and next to him.
That's a religion.
Sikhism is a religion.
There are, what, between 25 and 50 million people in the world that practice this.
And so that kind of almost bolstered the whole system, the whole system of control that he created.
Katie Griggs did not have that.
So, you know, that's also a key difference.
And I have more to say about that.
When I was watching the Monday video about Guru Jagat from the funeral, you know, her wedding was in there.
Katie Griggs' wedding was in there.
And I don't know if any of you saw that.
Philip, maybe you saw it.
But They had a quote-unquote sick wedding, but in the sick wedding you go around a city, go to Grand Stab, but in their wedding they're walking around Harijuan and Mundave.
So instead of going around this compilation of, I mean, saints and sages for hundreds, thousands, whatever, this very, very, very, very holy book, yes it is, but it's more than that to the six.
I mean, it's everything.
These two are walking around their teacher and his wife.
To backtrack just a little bit, I want to remind listeners that we cover some of the figures that you're mentioning in Episodes 36 and 37, but I don't think we speak about Tej.
And I wanted to mention, Jules, that you were a recent guest of Rachel Bernstein on the Indoctrination Podcast and you were able to unpack a lot of your personal narrative there.
And I believe that Tej was your first Kundalini Yoga teacher, is that right?
And she's part of the original sort of generation of early adopters, and she is contemporary with Hari Jiwan, and so they are the elders at the center of that wedding circle.
That's what you're describing, I suppose, where really... Well, Tej wasn't there, just...
Oh, Mondave is there, that's right.
Oh, Mon- sorry, Mon- sorry, Taige was also Hari G1's wife, though.
At one point, or no?
Oh, at one point, yes.
They divorced when he went to prison.
Okay, okay.
Well, let's- let me- Let's pull out of those weeds and ask you a more general question, which is, you know, if you imagine yourself back into the time in which you felt most connected to this group, what do you think it feels like now at Rama Institute as the crowd gathers to hear the eulogies, to watch this film that's been produced by Mandev and all in honor of Griggs?
So, you know, they've created a very, very, very nice, beautiful, wonderful, you know, this... this idea that she was wildly creative and wildly brilliant and this wild, beautiful soul.
I actually don't disagree with any of that, and I think there's sort of this idea that, you know, the followers, you know, kind of just glancing at Instagram accounts and stuff like that are saying, you know, now she wants us to take our training wheels off and You know, come into our own self-sovereignty and do our own work and she's still with us and, you know, all this very beautiful stuff.
I think in the initial shock of her death, you know, there was this, you know, narrative that was going about, you know, victimizing and blaming the truth heralders, as I was saying, which I didn't, you know, that was sort of interesting and surprising, like these spiritual people being quite sort of nasty and negative on the internet.
I have some screenshots with some language in them.
But the other thing that kind of came to me was in watching these people that I knew and used to work with and run around with.
You know, when something like this happens, there was a death when I was part of the community.
It was somebody who was a few years younger than me who was supposed to be, you know, the next Like, he was going to be such a great, you know, 3-H-O person, and he died very suddenly.
He was in his 20s.
And what did we do?
When something like that happens, when I was in the group, you immediately go to work.
Okay, what do we do?
There's no time for emotion.
You don't have emotion because that's commotional.
In the words of Yogi Bhajan, I think there was like a little tiny brief moment where anybody could be emotional and that was just immediately right after her death.
But, you know, in terms of processing, I don't know.
You just don't really.
You just go to work.
And then you go into this, so the work for them is videotaping, making more production, keeping the machine going, this machine of the Rama Institute and pumping out content and media and all of that.
But you can see them, like, they get right to work.
Like, Mandeva's there right with her camera filming, you know, Hariji went on the gong at the eulogy service, like, she just gets right in there and, you know, they're taking pictures and they're, It's bizarre, it's like straight into capitalizing on it, as Philip was saying.
I'm going to ask Janja in a moment about how this plays into this sort of instant activity and immersion and activity plays into you know, forms of social control and echoes that.
But Stacey, first, I want to ask you that as the journalist who published what's now, I think, the canonical investigation into Yogi Bhajan's career of sexual, emotional, and financial abuse, what strikes you most about Griggs' sudden death and what it means for the broader group? what strikes you most about Griggs' sudden death and what Well, first, I want to say it's shocking and it's very sad.
And I think whether you were a devotee or a critic, it's still shocking and sad.
It's also the timing, you know, on the heels of the Vice piece where I think there were many people who finally wanted some accountability, you know, finally wanted Guru Jagat to be called out now that it's completely distracted by her death.
The fact that this self-proclaimed 5D feminist who actually was a rape apologist, an anti-vaxxer, a COVID denier, who didn't believe the women, who put out a propaganda film calling the women liars, who just wanted money, all that gets swept away and we are left with
Um, a social media feeds full of her message of empowering the creative woman.
And I will say in my own personal feed, I know many women, you know, of my age, my peers who are in the creative culture, whether they be writers, designers, jewelry, jewelers, whatever they are.
Um, These posts kept going on and on, and my eyeballs were falling out of my head, honestly.
I was thinking it was cognitive dissonance.
I mean, yes, it's sad, and we have said that, but at the same time, you know, the con beneath it, the anti-feminist messages that are part of her shtick, for lack of a better term, are couched in this spiritual purpose.
The creative purpose is the highest purpose.
And you know, these are women who want a spiritual base to their creativity.
And I understand that.
I'm a creative.
I'm a writer.
You want to believe what you're doing is important.
It has a higher calling.
You're trying to change the world in some way.
And That her that message of hers isn't going to go away.
And unfortunately, right now, that's being overshadowed by the other things.
And then the one last thing I will say is I, I spoke to somebody who's kind of Rama adjacent.
And they said to me, Oh, but the yoga is good.
And, you know, we've had this conversation, you know, separating the teacher from the teachings.
And I said, Well, yes, the yoga may be good.
But now that I know all I know, it's not so good.
And that is still entangled with it.
And as you're all saying, capitalizing on it.
So what we're seeing now is Take more yoga.
Meditate more.
You know, your mantras will go with you into the afterlife.
So it's, you know, the continue of the churn.
Keep up.
Keep up her legacy.
You know, the throne is there for you to take and, you know, launch into your creative self.
So those are some of the observations I have.
Janja, I wanted to ask for a clarification first.
As a cult survivor myself, I've benefited immensely from your work, and so I really jumped at the opportunity to have you join us.
I don't think there's any doubt at this point that Yogi Bhajan was a cult leader.
Steve Hassan was just on Twitter being very explicit about it, calling him a malignant narcissist who used NLP to dominate his followers.
But we're remembering Katie Griggs on this episode, and I have refrained from using the C word yet in referring to Rama.
But, given the recent revelations published in Vice, given some of the things that you've heard your fellow guests here say, do you think it's useful to view the Rama Institute through the lens of cult studies?
Well, you know, I'm a proponent of using the word cult.
You know, there are a lot of, some academics and scholars who try to get rid of that word and try to have us use new religious movement instead.
Which actually doesn't work because there's plenty of groups that aren't religious.
So where, where do they go?
Um, and I think, you know, cult has a history, it has a meaning and, um, it, it tells us something about the leader, the group, um, the kinds of techniques that were used.
And even though every cult is different and may use similar techniques and control mechanisms, Um, may call it something else, um, are going to end differently.
Not every group's going to be a Jonestown.
You know, this is what we always hear from the critics.
Um, but from everything I've seen and, and heard here today, and just the things I've read about her since her death and, uh, the Vice article, you know, it, it, she operated like a typical charismatic cult leader and the followers behaved as they were Expected to behave, and it sounds like that's what they're continuing to do.
That's my next question, actually, is what generally tends to happen to a community like this when a charismatic leader dies?
Well, different things have happened.
I mean, it depends if some kind of hierarchical structure was set up ahead of time for someone to take over should the leader die.
We've seen groups split apart like happened with the Hare Krishnas when Prabhupada died and he left it to his 12 disciples and then they went off and had their 12 groups which were Still Hare Krishna's, but operated quite differently, some of them.
So a new leader may emerge.
Some of the followers may respect that person and some may not.
So often there's going to be internal battles, internal power struggles.
Groups may go into various splinters and start little ones on their own.
And then these people go off there and a lot of people may just simply leave.
And be disillusioned or be disappointed and go off, if they don't get the right help, they're going to go off and join something else, as we call those cult hoppers.
So, you know, a variety of things may happen when a leader dies.
Certainly, it puts the, I'd say, the true believers, the hardcore followers in some kind of crisis, typically, of what are they going to do?
Do they want to carry on?
Do they want to appoint a new leader?
It's hard for people to give up what's been their whole life.
So because the leader died, that shouldn't have to be the end of it, and they'll figure out a way around it.
So, you know, various things have happened.
It sounds here like there's still a pretty good core of believers.
It sounds like what people were saying just before about getting, you know, being told to meditate more, do more, keep working, is basically to keep them from thinking about what happened, or these issues that came up because of the Vice article, etc.
It's a very volatile time, in fact.
Right, right.
We had that other group where the cult leader was found dead.
Love Has Won, right?
Love Has Won, right.
And so that one's gone off.
Apparently they've changed their name and they're sort of carrying on in the same way.
Not too much is yet known about that.
But perhaps the folks here who really know this movement intimately would know if there is someone ready to take the reins.
Well, one complication that maybe Philip can speak to, given how you open, Philip, with an emphasis upon business practices and the transformation of many yoga communities into sort of financial instruments.
You know, I think it has to be acknowledged that Katie Griggs was masterful at business and that, you know, with her clothing lines and her media, growing media empire, that that will be, it would seem to me that that will be the gap that needs the most filling.
It's like, there's a strange, I wonder what the connection is, I guess I'm asking, between Charismatic leadership and a kind of business prowess that allows the, you know, the wheels to keep turning.
You know, when Yogi Bhajan died in 2004, it left a vacuum of charismatic leadership and part of that was, you know, there was a very deliberate strategy of cutting down any tall poppies.
You know, none of Yogi Bhajan's students could really get Bigger than Yogi Bhajan himself.
And one of the things that I think is very interesting about Guru Jagat and Rama is she didn't exactly fill a void of charismatic leadership, although she did have charisma.
But just as you mentioned, it's this combination of business savvy and charisma.
And I think as Stacey alluded to, Especially in Los Angeles right now, those two things work together to put yourself out there as the creative girl boss.
That is also a kind of charisma in addition to spiritual charisma.
Um, you know, I, I said that during, when she was alive, that that was part of her savvy, all of these images on social media that showed a group of creative Independent, spiritual women who are having a good time together, who are supporting each other.
So in some ways, the business was kind of part of that.
You wanted to be spiritual, you also wanted to be your own entrepreneurial boss as well.
Yeah, supporting each other, taking each other's photographs, promoting each other's content in a way that very much communicated a kind of You know, horizontal empowerment, but also showed that there was somebody that was going to be in charge or that there was also sort of a unifying aesthetic.
And I'm going to ask you a little bit about that, Jules, in a bit.
But when we come to the second round here of Hey, Geography, Philip, I wanted to ask you that about the Zoom vigil and how I was able to pop in and witness some of it and reading some of the comments in the chat box show this real intensity of devotion.
There's a couple that I have here.
One devotee is writing, Akal, Akal, Akal, dearest Guru Jagat, I'm deeply grateful for your fierce leadership.
Thank you for helping me to live more fully in this moment.
My mind is still in disbelief.
My heart's still breaking, but I know that you are eternal.
You will be missed.
This is the tone.
It goes on and on and on.
References to The Golden Chain will continue.
You know, just love on your way home.
I have a couple things that I could say about it.
missed on this earthly plane also also sort of references to the fact that she might be able to help people more now that she is disembodied and so um i'm wondering if like are these typical expressions for an event like this does this remind you of uh yogi bhajan what do you what do you see in this kind of outpouring um i have a couple things that i could say about it
i mean i think the obvious one too is as i mentioned before rama is clearly taking from and adapting from the 3ho playbook So a lot of these sentiments are what you heard when Yogi Bhajan was sick, when Yogi Bhajan passed away.
I think one very important and maybe so obvious that it flies under the radar factor is, unlike when Yogi Bhajan dies in 2004, we live in a very online, social media-fueled Time.
And that has really shaped the way that we mourn people and the way that we treat death.
I mean, it's almost become a joke that anytime anyone dies, it costs you nothing to display your grief.
You know, the second guitarist for a band that you listen to once in junior high, they pass away and it costs nothing to go on Facebook and say, rest in peace.
Um, and so that also makes, I think in this environment, Grief becomes a much more visible thing.
It's much more performative.
You can express your grief and everyone is going to see you expressing your grief.
When you see everyone else expressing their grief, that kind of heightens it for you as well.
I actually went to the Ramayana Institute in Venice and I went to part of their Akal chanting.
And when I was sitting in the main room, Yeah, I was struck by a lot of things.
I mean, I think as Stacey mentioned too, like the overwhelming thing is it's sad.
You know, any death is sad.
The death of someone young is sad.
It also struck me that, as I mentioned before, looking around the room, there was really no, nothing on display that has not already been proven to be a fabrication.
But there was a moment that I think, you know, really touched me.
There were heartfelt letters to her.
Um, and there was, um, you know, I'm a, I'm an amateur photographer, so I always pay attention to photography.
There was a really beautiful and I'd say like pitch perfect black and white image of Guru Jagat, where unlike a lot of the posed glamorous full color shots, it was a very simple black and white photograph.
And she looked very alone and unguarded.
And almost a little bit lost and you kind of imagine that if she was in a Bardo that's what she would be looking like and it kind of struck me that maybe The thing that current members and ex-members all have in common is that charismatic leaders and groups become a vessel for the best parts of ourselves.
We put in our time, our energy, our money, our hopes, our fears, the things that are most personal to us.
And I think for current members, that makes sense.
Those are like the memorial tributes to Guru Jagat.
You know, you believed in me.
You were a vision.
You were my hope.
And for X members, the same thing is true, except in a very different way.
I put the best parts of myself into this and it ended up being a sham.
And I think the amazing moment that I had there after being there and seeing these images and seeing that photograph where when I left, the photograph is for sale right by the cash register.
One for $7, three for $15.
And I think, you know, in a way that was kind of a great punctuation on the whole thing at the end of the day.
Yanya, I want to ask a follow-up question with regard to how emotion is expressed or not expressed because one of the things that I noticed from that comment feed is the repetition, I mean there's also the repetition of the chant of a call 24-7 and as Philip is saying that, you know, in Sikhism it might be limited to three times or five times.
There's a way in which if the undoubted sadness of those who knew her and those who followed her and those who perhaps depended upon her emotionally is going to be palpable in the room that Philip is describing.
At the same time, it can't really, it seems like it can't really be fully expressed Do you think I'm on to something there?
It feels like there's something that has to cover over it.
The mourning itself has to be expressed through the language of the group.
Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things typical, very typical of cults is the control of your emotions.
Either you're not allowed to have any emotions, which was what I experienced in the group I was in, or your emotions are completely defined by whatever the cult or cult leader or leadership wants them to be.
So it's very difficult for people to To really know what their emotions are, and that's in fact one of the biggest struggles that people have when they leave cults.
It's because they don't even know what they feel.
They haven't been able to, you know, have their own feelings for however long of a time.
So yeah, that's a very typical reaction.
But before we go on, there's two things I want to say.
One is that if I don't remember anything from this podcast, there are two wonderful comments that came out.
The photocopy of a counterfeit bill, I love that.
And the narcissistic sponge, oh my God, what a great image.
So I hope you all don't mind if I use that in the future.
And then I wanted to mention to Jules, or I think it was Jules who mentioned, or maybe it was Stacey who mentioned that people will say, oh, but the yoga is good, right?
Every time I hear that, I want to say, yeah, and Hitler made the trains run on time.
You know, is that okay?
Does that make Hitler okay in what else he did?
So, that's just my little bit for now.
Thanks.
It does seem that the yoga was good is a way of, I mean, not only does it rationalize everything else, but in the event of the teacher's death, that's what's left behind?
Because you've all noted that, especially Stacey, that in the wake of this Vice article, the wake and the vigil now can sort of wash the facts of the matter away, and what is left is practice.
Did people talk about leaders in your sphere?
And were there things you weren't allowed to say?
And what happened to your emotional, I don't know, spectrum or breadth while you were involved with the group?
You aren't supposed to be negative because There's the paradigm of light versus dark, of destiny versus fate, and it's vertical.
So if you're in the light, if you're in the happiness, if you're spreading that, if you're being the light and spreading the light, and these are yogi bhajan words,
You're rising up, and you're connecting up, but if the second you aren't either neutral, or you're positive, you're light, you're falling into your fate, and you're a traitor, and you're one of the ones who left.
And this language is used so much.
You know, you're one of the negative ones.
The one who lost their mind.
One of the ones who lost their mind.
You know, it's whitewashing.
Very much appeals to a certain demographic.
We know that.
It's lightwashing.
And I think in the case of Katie Griggs, it was this sort of happy washing.
And, you know, you're walking on eggshells around the leader because you're pandering to this person who's on stage, who you've conflated your God experience with, who is everything.
And there's this whole culture around it of just, it's all directed at this person in the light, in the spotlight.
It's a circus.
You know, in the case of, like I said, you know, like watching that eulogy film about Guru Jagat, you know, it's, it's just all, it was all these images and the whole, the whole narrative of it was feeding into her jet setting, seeking adventure, happy, you know, hashtag boss life.
I just think it's important to remember that those adventures and all of these yatras and all of these fashion lines and the yoga studios and all this stuff that she built You know, this is a person who had ambition and really wanted this.
She wanted celebrity, which is another major part of that group in particular, is using celebrity.
I think that's also important to remember.
But it's important to remember that the reason that they were able to have such a fabulous, fabulous, fabulous thing going on is because there were enough people to pay for that.
You know, who kept buying the workshops, who kept buying the festivals, who kept buying the Yatras.
It's very expensive.
Like, we were all creating this, you know, as a member of the group.
We were all participating in creating the Guru.
It's very apt.
I think it's so often kind of missed that in the incredible performance of her success, and the success of other leaders in that vein, there's this feeling of effortlessness that
Somehow, the person has manifested this through their wisdom or through their directness or their ability to see through bullshit or their mastery of some kind of spiritual principle, and nobody really accounts for just the materials of
Who's gathering the roses for the altar, and who's paying for that takeout from the restaurant, and who's doing the sewing on the clothing line, and stuff like that.
You know, in watching all of it, because I didn't work for Gurjagad and I was not part of her group, it actually never resonated for me.
I think that it was too clicky and I found them to, they liked to talk about others and I noticed that early on and I'm not somebody who, I just, I don't, I don't gain energy by sort of ragging on others.
That's not, it doesn't feel good to me.
Um, but she actually was, like, she was cool, you know?
She was smart and she was funny.
She, she was very witty.
And, you know, I think that, yeah, I mean, this ambition, you know, and, and, and she, it was like this perfect era for her, this influencer, you know, and, and this whole idea of, like, making your own path and making it yours and being you and, um, you know what?
I, I actually, like, that's all, like, I have no issue with that I guess is what I'm trying to say and there is like you know it is as we were saying very shocking and there's a lot of you know what what do you do in that void it's grief now but I do again it's really important to understand that in that clickiness and in that you know what she was building she was Stepping on others.
I mean, there's a whole base of that pyramid that is, you know, not sleeping but two hours a night.
That is, you know, just working tirelessly to get this machine, this engine, to keep going.
There are people who are tithing and donating, you know, whether it's You know, their money or their hours, their energy.
I mean, it's just, it's, they're supporting this.
Stacey, in our last conversations, we did speak a little bit about how Griggs was, as Jules is pointing out, an L.A.
fashion charismatic and celebrity whisperer, as much as she was a spiritual leader.
And she's combined those traits in a way that I can't really sort of Point to any other example of.
It seems to be pretty unique.
Like, how do you think her influence on fashion and etiquette will survive her in the group?
And what influence will they have in the group's image management?
A couple of things.
I mean, I think there are other celebrity whisperers in the sphere here.
Marianne Williamson, Deepak Chopra, And in fact, before her Gurmukh, you know, there was a period where she had a big celebrity following.
But putting that aside, you know, I've watched Katie transform into Guru Jagat.
And she was always charismatic, funny, appealing, a good yoga teacher.
And as she ascended to the stature before her death, she had great style and she looked great.
It was appealing.
And in fact, I went back looking at some of the images in preparation We're going to speak to you today.
And I came across this one image where she is wearing a black turtleneck.
Her hair is down and she has on big wired glasses.
And I looked at it and I thought, that is an imitation of the iconic Gloria Steinem photograph.
And It blew my mind because, in fact, I wrote about the photographer who took that image in the 70s.
You know, it's the iconic second wave feminist issue image.
And Guru Jagat never wore black.
And so I thought, this cannot be an accident.
And, um, and I thought, oh, so here she is taking on that helm, making the brand.
And she is the brand.
So when we talk about this era of social media and branding, she is the brand.
So it's going to be very hard to get somebody else to step in and be the brand.
No human's not going to wear a tubing like Bridgette did, you know, I mean, sorry, bad joke, but it's going to, that's going to be tough.
Um, That said, there are a sea of images that still exist.
I mean, the media, as Jules pointed out, it's a constant content machine.
So, they will be able to continue to push out these images that portray her in the way that will keep her attractive.
Now, in terms of the celebrity stuff, you know, Phillip and I talk about this a lot.
People don't Google.
They don't know.
So for again, I'm looking at my feed and I see a woman posting, you know, a, you know, a eulogy kind of post and I look and I see Cat Power, the recording artist, likes it with, you know, four white heart emojis.
I'm a huge fan of Cat Power.
You know, she's a, she's a great female recording artist and I'm thinking, Does she know?
Did she Google?
Probably not.
And so this it just keeps perpetrating this itself over and over again.
And then it then it's just kind of a pose.
Like, is it really the real, the real thing?
Or is it just a pose?
And then my last thing I'd like to say is, you know, years ago I interviewed Bikram for Entertainment Weekly, and this is before, you know, the allegations became public about him.
I mean, I always knew he was a little off-kilter and obnoxious, but that aside, He said to me, celebrities love me.
And I said, well, what?
Bikram, why do celebrities love you?
Because I tell them no.
Nobody tells them no.
And I tell it like it is.
And I think there's probably something similar going on here, right?
She's bold.
She's bombastic.
She says the thing that nobody will say.
Because in the celebrity ecosystem, everybody tells you what you want to hear.
Um, and here's somebody who's telling you things that maybe you don't want to hear that made that.
So, so that becomes, you know, why that attraction and one other thing, I'm sorry if I'm taking up too much of your time here, but, um, you know, celebrities also, we get to this place by talent and sometimes a little luck.
And so once they get there, They're like, why me?
What did it happen to me?
And so they look for a spiritual center, something to ground them in this, you know, crazy life they have.
You know, they're not curing cancer.
They're not, you know, they're doing these superficial things.
They have tons of money.
They don't know what to do with it.
So they're looking for bigger meaning in their life.
And so here comes somebody who they can relate to, who dresses like them, likes their music, Likes the same kind of music, and so she can speak to them on an equal level.
Janja, we've taken a look at what Griggs' followers seem to want to say, or that they're allowed to say.
What sorts of reflections or memories are group members generally not allowed to have in these circumstances, and how will they go about finding a way to express what they need to express?
Well, I think from the description that Jules gave us earlier of the way in which people were supposed to emote and think and behave really shows the level of control.
People obviously are supposed to only have good memories.
Anything negative needs to be shut out.
If you're at that point, what I call bounded choice, where you don't even need someone to tell you anymore what to do or how to behave, you're your own policeman, so to speak.
If you start having doubts or hesitations, you slapped yourself on the head because you know you're going in the wrong direction.
So I think, you know, for those who want to remain loyal, I think it's going to be, it sounds to me anyway, from this dilemma of the kind of leader that she was and these kind of two different aspects of her, you know, the fashion side, the celebrity side, and then the spiritual side.
It sounds like there's not anyone at the moment ready to fill those shoes.
And so people, I think, will be confused and at a loss and not really knowing how to, what to do or what to make of themselves.
You know, and I want to just add something about her charisma and her as a As a figure, you know, charisma is often misunderstood as an inherent trait, you know, that somebody's born with charisma.
Charisma, actually, if we go back and look at it sociologically, and a sociologist named Max Weber was the first one to talk about charisma.
And what he was saying is that Charisma really depends on how people respond to you.
It's not so much you, but how people respond to you.
They, in a sense, attribute you with this feature of charisma, right?
And then you, as suddenly The charismatic leader, you have to keep fulfilling that for them.
So you have to keep doing stuff.
You have to, you know, if you're Rajneesh, you have to keep having, you know, these incredible sessions with people where they go, and, you know, have their, their high arousal yoga, or if you're, what was his name, the leader who used to do magic tricks, the other guy in it, Sai Baba, right?
And he'd, He'd do these magic tricks that he was like creating things out of thin air, right?
So you have to, you know, or you're Donald Trump, you have to go have another rally, right?
You have to keep your followers revved up.
Otherwise, they're going to kind of lose touch with you and that charisma can start to fade.
So I think in terms of what, you know, This pack of people who are left, these believers, if someone can now sort of step up and grab the torch and run with it and see if people follow him or her, meanwhile, when you ask how are people going to be able to express themselves, they're going to, I think, Follow each other.
You know, nobody's going to want to be the one person to stand out unless there's some really powerful, aggressive person there who wants to take over.
Like when Rajneesh died and there were various power struggles.
But I think most of the people are just going to kind of wait and watch and see and, you know, keep doing what everyone else is doing because they've been in that group mentality for so long.
You know, it occurs to me hearing you review Vapor on charisma that, yeah, it's a social feedback mechanism rather than, right, it's a series of relationships and it's occurring to me that Katie Griggs as, I think it's on the homepage of the Rama Institute right now before you click through to the live stream of the vigil events.
There's a kind of washed out photograph of her on the beach with probably during a photo fashion shoot with five or six other women and she's holding the camera and there's something very moving about that because she is photographing her acolytes, she is commodifying their
They're modelling of her fashion and they're all going to be posting that material to the Rama feed, to the Guru Jagat fashion line feed, but also to their individual feeds.
And so I think it's a really amazing metaphor for charisma actually being a social feedback loop that can get rolling with a lot of momentum actually.
And, yeah, I think it's a really big question to see what happens to that wheel when the primary hub cracks.
Philip, you have something to say?
No, just to build on what Janu was saying, I think yogi bhajan is not unique, but something that is really worth remembering with yogi bhajan is He is not just being recognized by a public, but he is also in a kind of feedback loop.
He is telling them what they should look for to recognize him as charismatic.
He is kind of setting the terms of the game.
In Stacey's LA Magazine piece, she brings up this phrase, Saturn teacher.
So I think one of Yogi Bhajan's brilliant cons was Fabricate a lineage that gave gave a logic for all of his behavior you know he said oh i'm a saturn teacher my own teacher was incredibly strict and hard with me that's why i became great so suddenly he's written a blank check for himself.
Should behave terribly to his students and for them to then interpret it as.
Kindness as spiritual growth.
It's horribly brilliant in that way.
So when we talk about how Guru Jagat will be remembered, what will come to the forefront and what won't, you know, as a photocopy of a counterfeit bill, That idea of a Saturn teacher allows for all kinds of awful behavior to be remembered in glowing terms.
Remember when she yelled at you and she threw something across the room?
Yeah, she really cared for you enough to do that.
Yeah, I mean, she probably saw something in your aura.
She really wanted to like shape your destiny.
She's trying to bring the best you out.
So I think, you know, there's a real difference between viewing Inside the bubble and outside the bubble.
Outside the bubble, we could see a lot of awful behavior, but inside that world, inside that logic, there's always a way to twist it into a positive.
Like, it's like a black hole where everything is going to move towards enlightened spiritual being.
Given this complexity, Janya, let's say that I knew someone, a friend or family member, who was deeply invested in Kundalini Yoga and Rama Institute.
And that they were understandably shaken by reading Stacey's article, for example, by reading the Vice material, and now they're truly distraught over Katie Griggs' death.
How would I talk to them?
What do they need most?
Ah, my magic bullet.
This is the hardest question.
You know, it's really going to depend on the person and your relationship with that person.
But what I would do is try to get them out of the environment.
Take them on a trip somewhere.
Go to the woods.
Go to the beach.
Go to Disneyland.
I don't care where.
Get them out of the environment.
See if they can relax and chill.
Talk about ordinary things for a while.
And then see if they'll open up.
Don't push, don't prod, let it come to them.
Because if you start confronting people, especially at that vulnerable state, they're just going to dig in deeper and run onward.
So I think that the most important thing is to be a friend, to be a listener, to create what I call a safe haven, like be that place they can go to where someone's not gonna say, see, I told you so.
I knew she was a fraud.
I didn't know why you followed her all those years.
No, you don't ever wanna do anything like that.
But I think trying to remove the person from the environment, get them out of town, whatever, And have fun, have them experience normal, ordinary, non-sectarian fun, and see if they'll open up.
Jules, you're on the edge of your seat, and I think you have something to add.
I don't disagree with any of that.
I just think it's incredibly difficult when this thing and the apps that you're part of and the feed is that hype machine and it's unopposed.
It's that echo chamber, you know, there's nobody standing up.
You're blocked if you Say anything that, you know, disagrees with the stream, the content, the endless...
You were holding up your phone, just to be clear.
Oh yeah, I was holding up my iPhone.
You'd have to delete everything and unfollow everyone.
That was sort of the brilliance of Katie Griggs, the influencer.
Backtracking a little bit, I think what I wanted to say before is that her image and her fashion, it was actually the The root of it was something that was developed starting in the 60s and 70s by YB's staff, his closest staff, and then Hari G1's staff sort of took that and did their own thing with it, and then that was then sort of claimed into this
You know, her own version of Sat Naam Sheek that Guru Jagat had.
But, you know, I mean, it was bringing it, bringing the YB playbook to everybody.
um and then one last thing i wanted to say also about the whole celebrity thing um and tying back into yogi bhajan he actually didn't like celebrities and didn't want them and didn't want them around because he didn't want to be bought or controlled by those energy streams and be like in the rip current of that um meanwhile you know katie griggs actually was really like that was a big part of her whole thing
was you know again this whole celebrity thing and you know it's really where we live in i mean especially los angeles like it's you know everything is geared around the celebrity and you know you want to be you want to feel like you're part of something and
And I think in today's, you know, social media and just media in general landscape, and we don't have, I mean, I, you know, I just, speaking for my generation, I guess, I don't even know what that is, accenial maybe, but, um, you know, we don't have leaders necessarily.
Like we don't, who do you look up to?
Who's your mentor?
Who's your, uh, Kim Kardashian?
You know, like what's, what do you, what's your identity and how do you forge and form that?
And, you know, I think, um, and, and Katie Griggs spoke to that anyway.
So I, you know, how do you remove yourself from all of that?
How do you remove yourself from Instagram and Facebook and, When those things are designed to keep you so involved.
I think I'm saying something a little bit more clearly now than I ever have before, which is that, yeah, if your millennial or younger influencers are the Kardashians and somebody comes along and does that better and lends it the language of spiritual transformation, that's a really powerful mix.
It was brilliant.
That's incredible.
Because there's an implicit perfection of and critique of consumerism and fashion and beauty at the same time.
It's like, I can do this better and I can give it meaning.
It was meaningless before, obviously, with the Kardashians, it's meaningless.
But now I can do it with meaning.
I can turn this entire American dream into something that is profound, actually, and a pathway to salvation.
And a pathway into your destiny.
If I could just jump in, I think if we look at the example of Keith Raniere and the NXIVM I think because he did want celebrities around and recruited through celebrity networks.
But I think he offered that same kind of message, that same kind of salvation to them of reaching this other level of being that had to do with integrity, which was the exact opposite of what he was creating.
But he had a message that resonated also with so many people.
Yeah, I think one of the things that struck me about the Ramayana Institute was how small it was.
It's not a big space.
Was, went to Guramukh Center, Golden Bridge, the various incarnations of Golden Bridge.
I think that's a, it's a very big difference.
So Golden Bridge is a physically big space.
It's designed to have lots of people taking a class together.
And how was Guramukh best promoted?
Word of mouth, celebrities, magazine profiles.
She had a book, she had a DVD.
When I first walked into the Roma Institute, it struck me how tiny it is.
And my first thought was like, how many people can you get in here?
And then it dawned on me when you see the kind of permanently affixed lighting rig and like the space for the camera, like, no, this is not the point.
The point isn't for it to be a physical space with lots of people doing yoga.
The point is, it's almost like a film studio, not a yoga studio.
It's designed to live online.
That's where the real audience is.
So in some ways, like, you know, as we've talked about before, that's I think why the pandemic was kind of a great boon.
period for Rama because that was kind of its natural home was online and floating around on social media and writing the algorithms.
It's an incredible paradox too that this supposedly embodied and embodiment practice becomes situated or radiates out from an increasingly disembodied space and now She's gone herself, although the images remain.
She's still with us.
So, bringing this home and looking towards the horizon, Philip, you know, you have studied the multi-generational flow of Yogi Bhajan's organization, as you've described.
One of the things that happened, has happened over the last year and a half, is that there have been partial movements I would say incomplete movements towards transparency made by 3HO in response to the survivor testimony that came to light.
And I'm wondering,
Whether or not pressure from the parent organization, 3HO, I know that Rama has formerly separated itself off, but I'm wondering whether the movements towards transparency and some form of acknowledgement and perhaps even reparation will pressure Rama to perhaps move in a less messianic direction.
As you mentioned, Rama split off from 3HO.
So in the wake of all the allegations of abuse against Yogi Bhajan, Rama zigged when everyone else zagged.
While many people were, you know, making apologies, making statements that they believe the women who came forward, Rama really doubled down and they said, no, these women are liars.
We're not going to tolerate slander of Yogi Bhajan.
And in some ways that distinguished themselves as a kundalini yoga school, but it also untethered them from, you know, the smallest bit of accountability.
When you break off from the mother organization, you're not beholden to them anymore.
They don't depend on 3-H-O for certifications.
I'm sure that also put them beyond the reach of 3-H-O's own very mild and tame ability to discipline its own certified teachers.
So in some ways that only empowered them breaking off from 3-H-O.
I think it's also important to point out that 3HO's response in the last year and a half has been incredibly mild.
Very little accountability.
I think it's best described as damage control.
We see that already with hints that people are vaccinated and we're back to in-person gatherings.
It's all been about damage control.
You know, hire third parties of their own choosing to investigate.
Hire third parties of their own choosing to listen to community members and survivors.
And their method has been to just Pull the central figure of Yogi Bhajan back into the background to keep business as usual.
You know, it's a little bit, um, it's a little bit awkward to have a serial rapist and abuser as your kind of brand.
So just, you know, move into the back, quote other people, emphasize the science, emphasize your personal experience.
I think a really telling thing to look for is the kind of language that's used, who uses actual concrete, solid language.
Who describes sexual assault, child abuse, financial fraud and deception?
Who uses those terms?
Or who falls back into soft, fuzzy New Age language about challenges in these times?
I think the sobering conclusion that I would come to with both 3HO and Rama is Number one, people don't bother to do their own research.
They don't bother to actually look into the groups that they're giving their time and energy to.
I mean, the information on Yogi Bhajan has been out there for decades.
But I think the more sobering part of that is a lot of people just don't care.
Even if they know, they don't care.
I've got mine.
The yoga works for me.
I think Marianne Williamson is a perfect example.
Her defensive post when she stood up for Guru Jagat, I mean, that was like a bouquet of tried and true self-important bits of New Age logic.
My experience matters the most.
There are two sides to everything.
The media makes everything up.
And when I read her post, it's kind of dawned on me, like, if you follow Marianne's logic, you don't have to believe anything that you disagree with or that makes you uncomfortable.
There's something always at the ready to dismiss whatever you hear.
And You know, I mean, it's very common in a lot of, you know, more leftist wellness circles to point at something like Sandy Hook.
You know, it's a common thing to say, you know, when...
The United States did nothing when a large group of young children were shot.
You know, there's no hope for any action on anything.
You know, you can look at the New Age wellness world in the same way.
You know, when you know that a prominent teacher was a serial abuser and rapist, and it doesn't really change much.
You know, it's a sobering thought for how much reform or accountability is possible in those spaces on their own terms.
Stacey, another unresolved aspect of the Kundalini Yoga tragedy involves the second generation children who were sent by Yogi Bhajan to residential schools in India where many report being abused.
Now, Griggs wasn't part of that crowd.
She came much later to the organization, did not have a family investment in it.
How do the India kids, so-called now, regard her generally, and will they play a role in keeping Rama honest, if that's possible?
Well, there's a couple things going on there in this question.
One thing I will say is generally they probably don't regard her.
They kind of considered her a cult carpetbagger who appropriated their own appropriative cult and actually did a better job at it than their abusive cult leader, right?
Because she, you know, her reach and her stature, you know, 3HO hasn't figured out how to do what she did, right?
At the same time, you know, somebody like Rishi Nath, which is a second-gen India kid who has been I've been an activist for 13 years now and I encourage everybody listening here to check out her blog called Rishi Knots.
She's been blocked and ignored by any accounts when she calls them out.
The second gen also experienced the yoga in a very different way.
It was often used as punishment for them.
So when they see people, you know, the yoga is so good, it worked, it saved my life.
Well, for them, it was punishment.
There are some who are still involved in the yoga, yet even they believe the women, right?
Acknowledge that Yogi Bhajan was abusive.
So it's complicated, right?
So there's all these different levels of, you know, there's the shut it down camp.
There's the camp like, well, we're still going to carry on and do the yoga.
And this is within the second gen I'm discussing here.
And I should also note, and this just became public in the last couple of days.
So the impetus for the Olive Branch Report So, you know, Premka's lawsuit in 86, her memoir comes out, 3-H still does nothing.
Then a second gen named, and she has gone public so I feel comfortable saying this now, a second gen named Mahan Kiran, goes to the Sikh Dharma representative and tells her story of being groomed as a young woman and ultimately ended up in what she characterized as a sex hero.
So that was the credible complaint that finally launched the Olive Branch report.
That's what caused 3HO to say, okay, we better investigate this.
And that's when they hired the Olive Branch, and we now have that extraordinary document that concludes he more likely than not groomed, sexually assaulted, raped, and abused women.
So the second gen has spent a lot of time being ignored despite You know, trying to tell their stories for a long time.
So in terms of Rama, no.
They're not going to be kept honest by the second gen.
They're not kept honest by the Olive Branch.
They're not kept honest by anything, really.
Jules, I've reported on this landscape for a long time and I'm often in this position of wondering if the jig is finally up for groups like this?
I mean, there's been so much coverage, so many revelations and idol-smashing moments, not just of Kundalini Yoga, but of so many different yoga and Buddhist movements.
As you, do you feel like your generation, your demographic, are you over it?
Can you imagine somebody like Griggs rising in her place?
Or is that just not going to work anymore?
I think people, human nature, since History or whatever, as we've known it, we've had spiritual religious movements.
I think, I think that we want something.
There needs to be a construct of something in order, especially in a Sort of, you know, whatever you want to call it, the spiritual journey.
Initially, at least, there needs to be something upon which, okay, if you live in a northern place, there's a vestibule that you walk into in the home, the mudroom first.
And what do you do?
You take off your boots, you take off your big heavy coat, your hat, your gloves, your everything.
You put it on a hook, a hanger.
You gotta take, like, that stuff that's, like, all around you and that you don't, like, all that, Personality and baggage, whatever you want to call it, you have to put it on something so that you can then peel off the layers of the onion and get to you eventually.
And I think that people want to have that coat hanger, they want to have that hook.
Initially.
And, you know, I mean, this is speaking from my own personal experience.
And I think that, you know, as we have said, that followers are going to be followers.
And I asked a dear friend of mine many years ago, what's going to happen to this group, specifically speaking about Rama, when either Guru Jagat or Harijuan dies?
And she was 25 years older than me, and she just said, they're just going to find someone else to follow.
You know, maybe they'll carry on for a while, but they're going to find someone else.
Yanya, similarly, you've been at this for decades.
You've published these amazing books.
You've been all over the world giving talks.
You're quoted in major dailies on the regular.
Also, it was great to see you as a featured expert in seduced, eviscerating NXIVM.
Are these groups changing?
Are these stories going away?
We seem to be in a kind of golden age of cult investigations, and is that having a positive impact?
Or sometimes I wonder if you feel like the climate scientist who's been yelling, you know, stop carbon emissions since 1975, and no one has listened.
Yeah, I have to say, I mean, I have been doing this for, what, 35 years or whatever it is, and I still, every week, learn of new groups and hear new horror stories.
I mean, every time I think I've heard it all, I hear another one.
I think the groups are changing, and it's what we were talking about before, because of social media.
So we're finding sort of New formulations where people are finding community online instead of an actual physical cult.
So if you look at something like, you know, QAnon and some of that stuff that is very cultic in its behavior, doesn't have perhaps one leader, doesn't have a physical space that people can go to, but they're obviously Finding that community online.
And I think the pandemic actually increased people's searching for something, trying to find a framework to understand the world is kind of what Jules was talking about.
Something to latch on to.
I mean, when societies are in turmoil, that's when cults do very well.
They recruit like crazy.
And I think we're all going to be in turmoil for quite a while yet.
And I think those of us who work in this field need to really learn to keep up with these new types and these new formulations that are happening.
And yeah, I think it's, you know, I sometimes feel like it's a thankless task, but I also hope that I'm helping educate and I certainly enjoy the work I do with former members and recovery stuff.
Yeah, and I hope people stop being cult hoppers and, you know, if they manage to extricate themselves from something, I hope that they'll do some education and try not to land themselves in another harmful group.
One of the places they can go is to the fantastic reading list that you've got on your site, so I'll make sure that that's included in the show notes.
Janja, your work helped me, so.
Oh, thank you.
I'll just say that.
It was very instrumental for my path.
Thank you.
It's always heartwarming to hear that, because this is really kind of a lonely field.
You know, I sit up here in my space and do my thing, but you don't really know who you're reaching.
So thank you.
It's been a lot, so I concur.
Panelists, thank you so much for your time.
Stacey, where can we find you?
You can find me on Twitter at Stacey Stukin.
I do have an IMDB page, it's Jules Hartley, and I'm currently seeing patients at the Bastyr Clinic in San Diego.
I have a website, philipdeslippe.com, P-H-I-L-I-P-D-E-S-L-I-P-P-E.
I make everything that I write and publish and appear on accessible through that site.
I'd like to close out today by quoting from three emails that I received from anonymous sources while I was researching for this episode.
I have verified all of the identities.
First of all, the story of Griggs' cultic environment would not have come to the fore without the work of the people behind the Instagram account called Rama Wrong.
They were the first to collect, collate, and publish evidence of what ex-Rama members were saying, and then they went on to provide sources and materials for Cassidy George's reporting in Vice.
I reached out to Rahmarong for comment and have spoken with one of the members by phone and verified their identity.
They are still, for now, requesting anonymity.
But I'm going to put a side note in here.
I'm recording this on the day that our channels are flooded with the abject story about the Santa Barbara surf coach who murdered his beautiful children under the influence of QAnon.
We're going to be looking into that story more deeply next week with our guest hosts Jittharth Jadeja and Rachel Bernstein.
The story really brings home how this flattened dump of garbage, now known as the internet as Dale Buran unfolded for us in episode 62, has brought us to a kind of cultural brink.
And yet, at the same time, there is no doubt that people are using these networks to find each other and to help each other.
And I've seen it happen over and over again.
Internet and social media connections were key to my reporting on Ashtanga Yoga, Shambhala Buddhism, and Sivananda Yoga.
Survivor groups formed on Facebook.
They made themselves heard.
There are problems with this type of communication and the journalism that relies on it.
There's the problem of anonymity.
There are questions of corroboration.
But in my experience, most of those problems are academic.
The online survivors groups, I know, can become fraught, divisive, contentious, and sometimes even nihilistic spaces for those seeking connection and relief.
But overall, they do far more good than harm, and I have yet to see any survivor testimony emerging from any of them to be proven false.
So, I would say that Rama Wrong is actually part of an essential reporting mechanism at this point.
So, here are the questions.
Cassidy George of Vice cited your account heavily in her breakthrough reporting on Griggs in July.
What was it like to be talking with a mainstream journalist after all of that guerrilla work?
Answer?
It was a pleasure every step of the way.
She's a solid journalist who approached the story with genuine concern and care, and we know it felt good for a lot of people to be seen and heard.
Question.
Did your inbox catch fire as news of Griggs' death spread?
Answer.
We wouldn't say it caught fire, but there has been some shaming and threatening, and a few people telling us to delete the account, out of respect.
We don't really engage with anyone who threatens us.
De-escalation is sometimes possible, and we've had a number of productive conversations after reminding people that they don't know the full extent of our experiences.
Of the DMs you have received, are there any from people who, despite the promise of anonymity, are still reticent about speaking out?
There are plenty.
In a lot of cases, people aren't necessarily wanting to speak publicly, but they do want to feel seen and heard, so they might share more with us over time and eventually give us permission to post something they've shared.
Question.
What's your take on where Rama is going at this point?
Answer.
We have no freaking clue, but our greatest wish is to see people get out.
Question.
Looking back, how are you feeling about the role your account has played in all of this?
Answer.
We've had a lot of people tell us that they left Rama because of the account, or got people they care about to leave, or that they were considering a job or a training at Rama and decided not to do it because of information people had put forward.
We're just the facilitators, so we can't take credit for too much, but it feels really good to know we've helped people process what they've gone through, or leave Rama and get back to really enjoying their lives.
It's way beyond what we ever expected to do.
Now this next email comes from a former Rama employee.
Now this is someone who I've communicated with in past reporting that painted a picture of an abusive environment at the Institute.
I've seen documentation of and corroborated their employment and some of their experiences.
So I asked them some questions about Griggs' death and what it means.
Some of the answers are a little salty.
Question.
As a former Rama employee with a difficult history in the group, what was the first thing you thought when you heard of the death of Griggs?
Answer.
I was stunned to hear the news.
And then I heard the music from The Wizard of Oz in my head.
Ding dong, the witch is dead.
Two.
Current Rama employees are likely feeling a spectrum of emotions.
What do you imagine some of them are?
Answer.
The first concern I have for them is that they don't feel responsible for her death because they didn't work hard enough for her.
I imagine there was talk about how hard she always worked and how they constantly failed her.
You can read for yourself in Guru Jagat's own words at Ramarong IG page.
The hostile environment and constant threat of receiving another all-caps text from her was always just around the corner.
So I imagine they feel guilt, relief, tremendous sadness, confusion.
I hope they take the opportunity to run like hell away, because I'm sure they are all being told to double down even more.
More sadhana.
Sadhana is a word for practice.
More work.
More getting away from the reality that you're actually slowly dying living in this cult, just like you witnessed your teacher just do.
Third question, where do you see Rama going now?
No other teacher, here's the answer, at Rama pulls in a crowd like Guru Jagat, so I don't see how it can continue.
My bet is that you will hear Hari Jiwan still trying to profit off of Guru Jagat, or as he's now calling her, Lady Victory.
Maybe he'll have special communication with her from the other side.
Maybe she will have a quick incarnation and someone in the community will be her host.
So we all must prepare for this special event, the birth of Guru Jagat's new incarnation is just around the corner.
And you can buy discounted tickets now for the birthday celebration, but only for the next 24 hours.
Question number four.
How are you carrying on with your life?
Answer with a surprising sense of ease and freedom.
This last communication came via our Instagram account.
It was a DM from someone who was attending the vigil.
I'm a former student of hers, having broken away when the truth came out about Yogi Bhajan and she denied it.
Anyway, you probably watched the livestream, but just wanted to offer, I was one of about 12-15 people on the outer edges trying to social distance.
I was one of about 5 people wearing a mask.
I expected to mourn the loss of the teacher and the practice I once loved so much.
I thought I would sob.
But there was no emotion.
No one was crying.
Not a tear in sight.
I do remember Tage saying a few years ago, after someone she knew had passed, People in this community handle death differently.
