The Charlie Kirk Show - From the Archive: Charlie vs. The University of Illinois on Abortion
Aired: 2026-04-25
Duration: 33:04


=== Bodily Autonomy vs Pregnancy (10:06) ===

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[00:01:17]  I'm sure you're familiar with JJ Thompson's argument about abortion, the violinist.
[00:01:22]  Yeah, correct.
[00:01:23]  Okay, so I want to propose a slightly different take on that, maybe a variation.
[00:01:27]  So if there's a mother and a daughter, the daughter can be a teenager, 20, whatever.
[00:01:37]  Some kind of condition or organ failure or something where she needs a body part from her mom, like a kidney transplant, and only her mom is capable of giving her that kidney transplant.
[00:01:47]  She's the only person for DNA reasons or something.
[00:01:51]  Do you think that mom should be required legally by the government to give her kidney in order to keep the daughter alive?
[00:01:58]  Otherwise, the daughter dies.
[00:01:59]  It's not an analogous situation to a pregnancy.
[00:02:01]  So, why is it not analogous?
[00:02:03]  Well, first of all, because pregnancy only lasts nine months and you don't lose a kidney.
[00:02:08]  Okay, so let's say, okay.
[00:02:09]  You realize when you have a baby, you don't lose a kidney.
[00:02:11]  Okay, so the mother has to give up her kidney for nine months and then she gets it back.
[00:02:14]  How does that work?
[00:02:16]  That's why it's not analogous.
[00:02:18]  I understand.
[00:02:19]  But if, okay, let's say the mother has to be hooked up to the mother.
[00:02:21]  So come up with an example that is analogous.
[00:02:23]  Okay, the mother has to be hooked up into the daughter's bloodstream for nine months.
[00:02:27]  Use a real example, not something theoretical.
[00:02:30]  I don't understand.
[00:02:32]  I understand it's theoretical, but what part of this analogy is not analogous?
[00:02:35]  Because it doesn't happen.
[00:02:37]  I mean, of course it doesn't happen.
[00:02:39]  But why?
[00:02:39]  Of course, so then why are we talking about it?
[00:02:41]  Because it's an analogy.
[00:02:43]  Analogies don't happen.
[00:02:44]  That's the point of analogies.
[00:02:45]  Well, some analogies actually do happen.
[00:02:47]  Okay.
[00:02:47]  So, can you think of one that would be rooted in reality?
[00:02:51]  An abortion.
[00:02:52]  But, okay.
[00:02:53]  Okay.
[00:02:53]  Let's say, like, I think the reason you're trying to avoid this is because you realize that the government.
[00:02:58]  But let's flip this hypothetical around.
[00:03:00]  Yeah.
[00:03:00]  Okay.
[00:03:01]  Let's say that you had a killer, like a very awful disease for nine months, a killer disease.
[00:03:09]  And if you took a magical pill, because we're going to use hypotheticals, that could kill somebody randomly around the world, would you do it?
[00:03:16]  I would not do it now.
[00:03:18]  But okay.
[00:03:18]  So you would let the other person live?
[00:03:21]  I would.
[00:03:22]  But okay, the difference here is that.
[00:03:25]  That's your pro life.
[00:03:27]  No, I'm okay.
[00:03:28]  Here's my distinction I wanted to make though.
[00:03:33]  I think there's a very important distinction to be made between thinking that abortions are good versus thinking that women should have the choice to have an abortion.
[00:03:43]  Right?
[00:03:43]  Because in our scenario, the mother daughter, you can argue that the right thing to do, the thing you would want to do, or the thing that I would want someone to do, is to donate the kidney and save the daughter.
[00:03:53]  But I think there's kind of an instinct that for the mother, some sort of autonomy, bodily autonomy perhaps, is.
[00:04:00]  Stands in the way and basically says the government cannot enforce her to do that, even if it's the thing that we would feel is right for her to do.
[00:04:07]  So, what about that situation?
[00:04:10]  Is it the mother's DNA?
[00:04:12]  What do you mean?
[00:04:13]  Is the baby in her DNA?
[00:04:15]  Well, in my first analogy, I guess, yeah.
[00:04:18]  But it's a separate human being, right?
[00:04:22]  So, every human being should have separate protected universal rights.
[00:04:26]  Every human being.
[00:04:27]  Okay, if the daughter does the mother have the protected universal right?
[00:04:31]  To not have her kidney taken to go to the daughter, right?
[00:04:34]  In this scenario.
[00:04:35]  I thought we were over that one.
[00:04:37]  So I'm trying to get to at least some semblance of landing the plane here.
[00:04:42]  Yeah.
[00:04:44]  When a woman is pregnant, there's two sets of DNA: mother, baby.
[00:04:49]  If the mother terminates that baby, abortion, then she is basically saying, My DNA matters more than this other human being's DNA.
[00:04:57]  Don't you think a human who is physically entangled with another human has the right, purely on bodily autonomy, To do that, if someone else is reliant, plugged into my body, do I not have the right to disconnect that and retain?
[00:05:10]  No, you do not have the right to starve another human being of nutrients that would kill them.
[00:05:14]  You do not have a right to do that.
[00:05:15]  If you woke up tomorrow and someone was plugged into you, relying on it.
[00:05:17]  Again, that's not going to happen.
[00:05:18]  Use a real example.
[00:05:20]  You're not addressing the root issue here.
[00:05:23]  The root issue is to be philosophically consistent a woman or a man, especially a woman in pregnancy, does not have a right to terminate another human being, regardless if it's in their utero, in their nursery, or whether it's in their car.
[00:05:36]  If someone comes up to you and is.
[00:05:38]  Trying to cause you bodily harm, like trying to, I don't know, not kill you, but trying to attack you and cause you harm, do you have the right to defend yourself?
[00:05:46]  Well, hold on.
[00:05:46]  Hold on a second.
[00:05:47]  Are you saying that a baby's an invader in a woman's uterus?
[00:05:50]  I mean, in a way it is, right?
[00:05:52]  What?
[00:05:52]  The baby.
[00:05:55]  Okay, let's say.
[00:05:56]  Wait, is the baby breaking and entering?
[00:05:59]  In an instance of.
[00:06:02]  That's less than half of 1% of all the cases.
[00:06:04]  So I am pro life in all the cases.
[00:06:07]  But let me just say let's say that we allow abortion in.
[00:06:10]  Should we then outlaw abortion for all the other cases?
[00:06:13]  I don't think so, Steve.
[00:06:13]  Okay, so then we're not even talking about it because you're using it as an externality to try to.
[00:06:17]  So let's now talk about the other 99.9% of the cases, right?
[00:06:20]  I'm down.
[00:06:21]  So now let's.
[00:06:24]  But just to be clear, in the 99.9% of the cases, how did that baby appear?
[00:06:29]  Did it just knock, knock, I want to come in, breaking and entering?
[00:06:32]  How did the baby.
[00:06:33]  Probably accidentally.
[00:06:34]  Hold on, accidentally.
[00:06:35]  What do you mean?
[00:06:35]  Like, let's like catching COVID, you didn't like.
[00:06:38]  I mean, what did the woman do to get the baby there?
[00:06:41]  Probably had sex.
[00:06:42]  Yes, so she made a decision and she'd take responsibility for your orgasms, right?
[00:06:46]  Okay, but if you.
[00:06:49]  I think there's a distinction between.
[00:06:51]  There's a distinction between.
[00:06:54]  Trying to have sex protected or on the ground.
[00:06:56]  It doesn't matter what your intent is.
[00:06:58]  The action has a consequence.
[00:07:01]  If you get on a plane and the plane crashes, can we say that you consented to die in a plane crash?
[00:07:05]  Because that was your intent?
[00:07:07]  Well, actually, anyone who gets on a plane knows that when you play certain games, you could win certain prizes.
[00:07:11]  So, okay, there's a.
[00:07:14]  But is it your fault?
[00:07:15]  No, it's probably the pilot's fault or the DEI person running the air traffic control's fault.
[00:07:19]  Whatever.
[00:07:20]  But more concretely or more realistically, Do you agree with the principle that people should take responsibility for their actions?
[00:07:28]  Of course, you do.
[00:07:30]  Generally, yes, but I think in.
[00:07:32]  Generally, except of course, when it involves sex.
[00:07:35]  Of course, people should take responsibility for their actions.
[00:07:38]  But in the scenario where your body is being used by another entity, your body.
[00:07:45]  Your argument would have a lot of merit if babies just appeared.
[00:07:49]  If all of a sudden, like, a woman woke up.
[00:07:52]  We decided that we're going to put that aside.
[00:07:54]  But you think in cases of.
[00:07:56]  Abortion should be allowed.
[00:07:56]  Of course, you know why?
[00:07:57]  You do, because I've got a clip of you.
[00:07:59]  Yes, I do not.
[00:08:00]  Of course, I'm sorry.
[00:08:01]  They should not be allowed.
[00:08:02]  I'll tell you why.
[00:08:03]  I have two ultrasounds in front of me.
[00:08:04]  One is a baby conceived in a woman, one is a baby with a loving family.
[00:08:07]  Which one is which?
[00:08:08]  There's no distinction.
[00:08:09]  Exactly, because they're both human beings.
[00:08:11]  There is a distinction between the mother.
[00:08:13]  The method of conception does not give you more rights or less rights.
[00:08:18]  Somebody in this auditorium was conceived in a woman.
[00:08:22]  Who is it?
[00:08:23]  I don't understand.
[00:08:24]  You don't know because they're a human being.
[00:08:26]  My point is precisely human rights are universal.
[00:08:28]  The conception doesn't matter, and the human rights of the mother are also universal.
[00:08:32]  The bodily autonomy, if you're going to say.
[00:08:35]  Then come on.
[00:08:37]  That right there.
[00:08:43]  Thank you.
[00:08:43]  Like I said, like I said, there's.
[00:08:47]  Being pro choice is not necessarily being pro abortion, it's just pro the right.
[00:08:51]  Should I, again, this might sound awfully elementary or pedantic, but do I have a right to murder you?
[00:08:59]  No, because that would infringe my bodily autonomy.
[00:09:01]  Bingo.
[00:09:01]  So then why, no, time out.
[00:09:03]  Why does a mom then have a right to be able to murder the being in her temporarily?
[00:09:08]  Infringing upon her bodily autonomy.
[00:09:10]  If I was infringing on your bodily autonomy, you could murder me.
[00:09:12]  If I came up and tried to attack you, you could murder me.
[00:09:14]  How could you possibly infringing on bodily autonomy because the baby's there for nine months getting nutrients from the mother?
[00:09:22]  Yeah, and like when they're birthed, they rip a hole in the mother and cause like there are a ton of side consequences that could come out of that.
[00:09:29]  There's all of these, like it is reliant on the mother's body.
[00:09:33]  So it's biologically.
[00:09:34]  Let me just say, I'll grant you all of this.
[00:09:37]  So therefore, eliminate the life.
[00:09:40]  Which definitionally infringes on that human's rights.
[00:09:45]  Okay.
[00:09:47]  The bodily autonomy of the fetus does not trump the bodily autonomy of the mother.
[00:09:53]  No, it's equal.
[00:09:54]  They're both human beings.
[00:09:55]  Yes, but the fetus is already infringing on the bodily autonomy of the mother.
[00:09:58]  What species is the fetus?
[00:10:00]  It's a human.
[00:10:02]  So call it a human, not a fetus.
[00:10:03]  Don't use dehumanizing language to try to make it seem like it's a clump of cells, because it's easier to murder things you cannot see, right?
[00:10:08]  It's easier to eliminate things.

=== Eliminating Things Easier (03:07) ===

[00:10:09]  You cannot witness.
[00:10:10]  So they use words like fetus, not you.
[00:10:12]  So the baby.
[00:10:13]  Were you a human being when you were a fetus?
[00:10:16]  I was a.
[00:10:17]  Yes.
[00:10:17]  Okay, great.
[00:10:17]  So therefore, if it's a human being, shouldn't it get human rights the same as you and I?
[00:10:22]  Just because it's smaller, just because it can't talk like us, doesn't it deserve human rights?
[00:10:26]  It does as long as it's not infringing upon another human's rights.
[00:10:29]  Wait, hold on.
[00:10:29]  Time out.
[00:10:31]  Is my six month old who demands food all the time and can't hunt and gather infringing on my rights and my income because it needs food all the time?
[00:10:39]  No, because it's not hooked up into your body.
[00:10:41]  Hold on.
[00:10:41]  No, no, no.
[00:10:42]  Hold on.
[00:10:42]  It's in my home.
[00:10:43]  If I don't.
[00:10:43]  Feed my child, I will go to jail for intentional child starvation.
[00:10:48]  I will get locked up by CPS.
[00:10:50]  So, how is it any different to have a six month old under my custody, which is infringing on my income, infringing on my rights, infringing on my sleep, infringing on a lot of different things as a father?
[00:11:02]  How is it any different than the nine months up to umbilical cord?
[00:11:05]  By the way, how many people in this audience are currently having their tuition paid for by their parents?
[00:11:10]  They're infringing on their parents' income.
[00:11:12]  Okay.
[00:11:12]  How is it any different, actually?
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[00:12:31]  You don't think that there is a difference between the baby after it's born versus the baby.
[00:12:36]  What's the difference?
[00:12:37]  Okay, because while it is in utero, while the woman is pregnant, it can cause the woman physical harm.
[00:12:43]  It is life-threatening.
[00:12:45]  There are a ton of cases where it can cause all kinds of things to happen and it is physically hooked up into your body.
[00:12:51]  It incapacitates you to some extent.
[00:12:53]  Pregnant.
[00:12:53]  Wow, I just, I encourage you.
[00:12:55]  You have such a lot.
[00:12:56]  You have, just so we are clear, that babies can infect moms with terrible diseases.
[00:13:02]  Like, babies are like disease mongers by the time that they're age one.
[00:13:06]  No, but here's the point is that there are risks at every point of human development.
[00:13:11]  There are risks when the baby is two weeks old, there's a risk when they're 16 years old and they start driving.
[00:13:15]  Then there are risks to all of humanity.

=== National Crisis of Babies (08:12) ===

[00:13:16]  But you don't think there's a fundamental difference when they're physically connected into your, If the idea of somebody being physically connected, right now there are tens of thousands of babies right now in what is called NICU.
[00:13:33]  It's a neonatal intensive care unit.
[00:13:35]  They're 26, 27, 28 weeks.
[00:13:37]  They cannot breathe on their own.
[00:13:38]  They have contraptions and machines all around, and it's extremely expensive.
[00:13:42]  Hold on.
[00:13:43]  It's extremely expensive for the parents.
[00:13:45]  They have to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt.
[00:13:47]  Do they have a right to say, you know what, that baby in NICU is going to cost us 300 grand as all these machines.
[00:13:53]  Do they have a right to pull the plug on that baby?
[00:13:54]  Do you think?
[00:13:55]  Answer the question.
[00:13:56]  I don't think so.
[00:13:57]  But do you think they would have a right to go pull someone random off the street and hook up the baby into that person's bloodstream because the baby would die otherwise?
[00:14:07]  If the NICU machine doesn't exist, what do you think?
[00:14:13]  If the NICU machine didn't exist and you had to pull a random person off the street to save that baby's life.
[00:14:17]  Again, none of that is even remotely relevant in the hypothetical.
[00:14:22]  The answer is no because it's not applicable what I'm saying.
[00:14:25]  But again, in some ways you're overthinking it, in some ways you're underthinking it.
[00:14:30]  Let me just kind of end with this, that human development at its very core, irrefutably starts at conception.
[00:14:38]  I believe human life and human development start the same.
[00:14:40]  You can have your own thoughts on that, but human development, our process, human beings, start when our deoxyribonucleic acid as a zygote attaches to the uterine wall.
[00:14:49]  That is when life begins.
[00:14:50]  Like, irrefutably.
[00:14:52]  I'm not arguing that.
[00:14:52]  No, no, I never want to.
[00:14:53]  But allow me to finish and then we'll get to the next question.
[00:14:55]  Okay.
[00:14:55]  Therefore, at every step of the process of development, you have the same human rights As when you're 18 or 30 or 40.
[00:15:03]  And the most fundamental of all those rights is life.
[00:15:07]  And if we cannot defend your life right, then what good are we defending all of your other rights?
[00:15:11]  Final point.
[00:15:13]  I still think, I really don't think it would hurt you to answer the original analogy.
[00:15:17]  I think you see where it would go that you can't infringe upon someone's bodily autonomy in order to save someone else's life.
[00:15:25]  Do you agree with that?
[00:15:26]  Well, hold on, time out.
[00:15:28]  Just so we are clear, we infringe on people's bodily autonomy all the time.
[00:15:31]  Want me to give you an example?
[00:15:33]  We drafted men into World War II to go fight for this nation.
[00:15:36]  That infringed on their bodily autonomy.
[00:15:38]  We told them that your time is not your own, your passion is not your own, you must go run onto Normandy Beach.
[00:15:44]  Would you agree that is an infringement on bodily autonomy?
[00:15:47]  It is, but the government has the right to do that to uphold the nation, right?
[00:15:51]  There's a difference.
[00:15:52]  Saving babies upholds the nation, my friend, all the time.
[00:15:55]  How?
[00:15:56]  In the same way as fighting a war?
[00:15:58]  Yeah, even more so.
[00:16:00]  In fact, reducing abortions by a million a year would be an enrichment of our society.
[00:16:06]  We might find the next Einstein, the next Nikola Tesla, we might have the next Michael Jordan that is being aborted every day.
[00:16:12]  The government's, I think.
[00:16:13]  Thank you.
[00:16:15]  The government's right to be able to do that, I think, needs to be justified by some reason that it affects the government.
[00:16:22]  It doesn't affect the government to terminate a baby in pregnancy.
[00:16:28]  You don't think a million abortions a year affects anybody?
[00:16:32]  I'm not saying it affects nobody, but I'm saying in the same way you're saying it affects people in the same way that the government not being able to have an army does?
[00:16:39]  I think there's a different.
[00:16:40]  I would actually think it's an even bigger moral crisis than not being able to enlist an army.
[00:16:44]  It's a bigger moral crisis.
[00:16:46]  If you are massacring a million of your own people every year, That's a bigger problem than being able to properly staff the Marine Corps.
[00:16:53]  You're, you're, okay, so you think we're mastering the people, but we also are forcing women.
[00:16:58]  No, but to go, just to go back to your analogy, just so we're clear, the government does infringe on bodily autonomy in times of national crisis.
[00:17:04]  Yes, sir, yes.
[00:17:05]  And therefore, again, I even reject.
[00:17:07]  What is the national crisis that results in murder?
[00:17:09]  A million a year.
[00:17:10]  That's a crisis.
[00:17:11]  Okay.
[00:17:12]  Right?
[00:17:13]  If I told you that a million people are murdered a year, blanket, you would say, boy, that's a big problem.
[00:17:18]  In fact, we used to call that the Holocaust.
[00:17:22]  Okay.
[00:17:22]  Yeah.
[00:17:23]  Okay.
[00:17:23]  In fact, right?
[00:17:24]  I mean, you would say, so just so we're clear, Holocaust went for about six to seven years, six to seven million people died.
[00:17:29]  I understand.
[00:17:29]  We know a lot about the Holocaust.
[00:17:31]  Was the Holocaust a crisis?
[00:17:32]  Yes, it was a crisis.
[00:17:33]  So how is abortion not a crisis?
[00:17:35]  Because the.
[00:17:36]  Because they're smaller human beings?
[00:17:38]  The unborn, the baby, the fetuses.
[00:17:41]  Hold on, you said baby, therefore it's murder.
[00:17:43]  It's a baby, it's a baby, whatever you want to call it.
[00:17:45]  I still think, if.
[00:17:47]  Okay.
[00:17:47]  Whatever you want to call it, okay.
[00:17:48]  I think the big distinction here is that.
[00:17:51]  That baby, that child is still infringing upon someone else's body using their body.
[00:17:55]  And I think the owner of that body should decide.
[00:17:57]  Okay.
[00:17:58]  I might even grant you that.
[00:17:59]  The point being is that throughout history, we are able to sometimes say that in order for life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, defeating the Nazis in World War II, there is a greater good.
[00:18:09]  And I will say that what is the greater good?
[00:18:11]  That those that are being massacred in the womb can have life because life is good and it's the first of all human rights.
[00:18:16]  And that's the last question.
[00:18:17]  Are you glad you weren't aborted?
[00:18:19]  Of course I'm glad I was aborted.
[00:18:20]  Then why wouldn't you want to give that gift to millions of other people?
[00:18:23]  Do you want to give the gift?
[00:18:24]  What about there's mothers, there are mothers that die in medical situations all the time.
[00:18:31]  That is a red herring.
[00:18:32]  No one wants those mothers to die, but it is a fact that if we outlawed abortion, 99% of them, all of a sudden we'd have a 990,000 increase in our population every year, and we'd have much more life.
[00:18:42]  And in a month, those children would be raised in households.
[00:18:45]  See, that is a cynical view.
[00:18:47]  You know, there's over 2 million people on the adoption waiting list every year, and there are a million abortions.
[00:18:51]  We have twice as many people that want to adopt.
[00:18:54]  Than actually abort in this country.
[00:18:55]  There's no such thing as an unwanted child.
[00:18:58]  And I refuse to live under the bigotry of low expectations where we can justify, oh, they're going to have a bad life or they're going to grow up in a crime ridden neighborhood.
[00:19:09]  I'm sorry, I know you don't mean it.
[00:19:10]  That's how you get to eugenics.
[00:19:12]  If you start to all of a sudden say that their life is going to be terrible, therefore we can eliminate them.
[00:19:17]  That's not the point I was trying to make.
[00:19:19]  That is exactly the point you were making.
[00:19:21]  I'm started with the bodily autonomy thing.
[00:19:23]  No, no, but eventually, you interjected.
[00:19:25]  You granted for a moment there.
[00:19:26]  You granted for a moment.
[00:19:27]  The thing about no, I said if I were to grant you the bodily autonomy, it doesn't even bear out that at times the government can actually take possession of your bodily autonomy.
[00:19:37]  When did Roe v. Wade start?
[00:19:38]  In like the 60s, right?
[00:19:39]  From the 1960s, 70s, 70s, something okay.
[00:19:42]  From then until now, until Trump banned abortion, what national crisis has arisen?
[00:19:47]  Has there been like a national crisis because all these babies have been aborted?
[00:19:51]  Like 55 million souls that never had a chance to live.
[00:19:55]  That's a beyond a national crisis.
[00:19:56]  It didn't understand.
[00:19:58]  We didn't.
[00:19:59]  Lack scientists or politicians because of unborn babies.
[00:20:02]  How do you know?
[00:20:03]  I mean, we, like, there was.
[00:20:05]  So, you know, all 55 million identities and what they could have achieved and their dreams?
[00:20:10]  I mean, at some point, you have to take a step back and say, boy, when 55 million people never had a chance at life, that's kind of dark.
[00:20:16]  What does that say for a society?
[00:20:17]  55 million, I don't know if all of them wanted to have an abortion, but millions of women didn't want to be pregnant and were forced to continue being pregnant against their will.
[00:20:29]  Like, that affected their physical health.
[00:20:31]  We're going in circles, but outside of.
[00:20:34]  If you don't want to get pregnant, then save yourself for marriage and stop having so much sex with everybody.
[00:20:38]  And certainly do not murder babies as an excuse for your gratuitous sex.
[00:20:44]  All right, I'm so excited.
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[00:21:00]  For me, I already know what's going on the grill, and that's Good Ranchers.
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=== Sentience and Moral Consideration (11:35) ===

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[00:21:51]  I'm currently agnostic, like normatively.
[00:21:53]  I'm leaning towards pro choice in the virtue of the facts that I take it that pro life views ultimately fail in accounting for like relevant data, being like the facts of the conversation, like biological, philosophical, and identity information.
[00:22:05]  And I'm not convinced that identity is reductible down to the physical properties or the organism.
[00:22:09]  I think we are a mind.
[00:22:11]  Are we just a mind?
[00:22:14]  What do you mean?
[00:22:15]  You tell me, you're making the contention.
[00:22:18]  I think our identity is down to our mind, yes.
[00:22:21]  Just consciousness or the mind?
[00:22:22]  You got to explain what you mean.
[00:22:23]  Yeah, the mind is just going to be like sentience.
[00:22:26]  Okay, so what's your contention?
[00:22:28]  I think they fail because I don't think that the being one is at conception is the same being that they are now.
[00:22:34]  And I don't mean that descriptively.
[00:22:36]  I take it that you are like your mind, and before a certain week in gestation, there was no mind or sentience, right?
[00:22:41]  And thus, no person, just physical properties, and that would eventually be informed by that said mind.
[00:22:48]  Okay, yeah, I'm not totally following what you're saying because you're using the word mind, which is not usually a word.
[00:22:52]  Yeah, I just said that mind is like sentience, like having a human's subjective experience.
[00:22:57]  So, what is your contention then?
[00:22:58]  That you're not persuaded by?
[00:23:00]  Yeah, I'm not persuaded by pro life views that we are reductible down to our organism.
[00:23:05]  Okay, yeah, so an 85 year old in an old person's home that has Alzheimer's, are they less of a human than you?
[00:23:10]  I didn't say that they were less of a human from having Alzheimer's.
[00:23:12]  No, answer the question because they have.
[00:23:14]  Yeah, so people with Alzheimer's still have the capacity for subjective experience.
[00:23:18]  I wouldn't say that they can't remember anything.
[00:23:19]  They can't remember anything.
[00:23:20]  Memory isn't.
[00:23:21]  Sentience, no, it's a part of sentience, isn't it?
[00:23:24]  Yeah, it's not going to be the.
[00:23:25]  I'm not going to say that the full capacity for sentience is going to be like what grants them that like moral consideration.
[00:23:31]  I'm telling you that any level of sentience, which is why I hold a cautionary principle, but like at any level of sentience is going to grant them moral consideration.
[00:23:37]  When does human development begin?
[00:23:40]  What do you mean, human life?
[00:23:41]  Human development, it's going to be at conception, yeah.
[00:23:44]  That's human life, yeah.
[00:23:45]  Human life begins at conception.
[00:23:47]  I'm not contending that.
[00:23:47]  No, no, got it.
[00:23:48]  So then, shouldn't our laws then protect the first possible moment of human development?
[00:23:52]  Why should they?
[00:23:53]  Well, because it's a human life.
[00:23:56]  That's just begging it, the question.
[00:23:58]  Well, no, it's actually not true.
[00:23:58]  No, you're just telling me what the human is.
[00:24:00]  You're not telling me why they should deserve rights.
[00:24:03]  Oh, so why murder is bad?
[00:24:04]  Do we need to do that?
[00:24:05]  You're going to have to explain as to why abortion is going to be the unjustified unaliving.
[00:24:09]  You're just telling me that it's because murder is inherently unjustified.
[00:24:12]  You're just telling me that it's inherently unjustified.
[00:24:14]  You're going to need to tell me why it's unjustified.
[00:24:16]  Well, personally, I think murder is wrong is pretty intuitive, right?
[00:24:19]  Yeah, it's intuitive, but you're going to need to tell me why abortion fits within that unjust category.
[00:24:23]  Okay, because you're your own unique deoxoribonucleic acid at the time of conception.
[00:24:27]  DNA?
[00:24:28]  Yes, DNA, thank you.
[00:24:30]  Yes, when you attach to the uterine wall, and the moment at that time, your life began when your DNA was formed.
[00:24:37]  Absent intervention, you then form into a fully developed adult, and you do not have a right to interrupt the development of another human being.
[00:24:48]  You do not have a right to interrupt a six month old or a six year old from growing or flourishing.
[00:24:54]  You do not have a right to be able to do that.
[00:24:57]  That is a basic, self evident moral principle.
[00:25:00]  That just because you are larger or just because you're older, you're able to interrupt another human being from growing.
[00:25:07]  Yeah, I didn't say any of that, but sure.
[00:25:09]  So, do you think that.
[00:25:10]  Okay.
[00:25:11]  Well, I don't really know what you did say, actually.
[00:25:13]  That's okay.
[00:25:14]  Do you?
[00:25:14]  Yeah.
[00:25:15]  So, what did you say?
[00:25:17]  Yeah, so I said that we're reducible to our mind.
[00:25:20]  Our mind is what makes our identity.
[00:25:21]  And I said my contention was that we are not reducible to this organism.
[00:25:26]  All right, yeah, again, so we have clarity but not agreement.
[00:25:28]  We believe you're more than just consciousness.
[00:25:30]  We believe a human being is in essence valuable because it is a human being.
[00:25:35]  This deduces back.
[00:25:36]  What do you mean by being?
[00:25:39]  What do I mean by a human being?
[00:25:41]  Yeah.
[00:25:42]  A homo sapien?
[00:25:43]  Okay, sure.
[00:25:44]  I was asking simply because some people denounce being to be personhood.
[00:25:47]  That's all I'm asking, okay?
[00:25:49]  But sure.
[00:25:50]  So are you familiar with a partial molar pregnancy?
[00:25:54]  A partial molar pregnancy?
[00:25:56]  Yes.
[00:25:56]  Not necessarily.
[00:25:57]  Okay, a partial molar pregnancy is where one egg drops and two sperm go in.
[00:26:02]  And it's going to basically.
[00:26:03]  Create this like ball of fat, but it's still going to be human, alive, and obviously of the human species.
[00:26:09]  Should the mother be obligated to carry that partial molar pregnancy?
[00:26:12]  I don't know enough about that.
[00:26:14]  Okay.
[00:26:15]  So I can get back to you on that one.
[00:26:17]  Okay, sure.
[00:26:18]  Do you think, what do you like value?
[00:26:21]  Do you value it being like a human being?
[00:26:23]  Just being human beings?
[00:26:24]  Yes, human beings inherently are valuable.
[00:26:26]  Yeah, why are they inherently valuable?
[00:26:27]  Well, you want my religious definition or do you want my biological one?
[00:26:32]  Either one's fine.
[00:26:33]  Okay, well, I believe every human being is made in the image of God.
[00:26:36]  and therefore it's uniquely designed and crafted and created.
[00:26:41]  And since every human being is made in the image of God, we do not have the authority morally to destroy another being that bears the image of the Creator.
[00:26:52]  Okay, sure.
[00:26:53]  Yeah, so the idea, I believe, that God grounds this intrinsic value in a fetus, I don't think satisfies that.
[00:27:02]  I'm using them colloquially.
[00:27:03]  I'm not using them to dehumanize.
[00:27:04]  I'll use child, baby, whatever.
[00:27:06]  Because intrinsic value is also expected under the atheistic.
[00:27:11]  Like, hypothesis.
[00:27:13]  So, I don't know what kind of argument you're making here because, unfortunately, God itself is just not going to ground that a fetus is inherently valuable.
[00:27:22]  Okay, you asked for my scriptural analysis, but okay, let's just take.
[00:27:25]  I have no intention with it.
[00:27:26]  It is grounded under atheism, too.
[00:27:29]  Right, so therefore, okay, if you would agree that your life is valuable, my life is valuable, yeah?
[00:27:34]  I believe we're valuable because of our sentience, yeah, sure.
[00:27:37]  Okay, yeah, so we disagree.
[00:27:38]  So, but if a being is going to get sentience in a couple of weeks, Shouldn't you allow that being to continue to develop?
[00:27:46]  After it's born?
[00:27:47]  No, no, no.
[00:27:48]  In utero.
[00:27:49]  In utero, no.
[00:27:50]  I don't find it to be morally considerable before sentience.
[00:27:53]  Oh, got it.
[00:27:53]  So you can eliminate anything even though it's growing towards sentience?
[00:27:57]  Yeah, so are you making like a potential argument?
[00:27:59]  Well, I'm just making a rather rational one.
[00:28:02]  Just so we are clear, just you know, when a baby is born, your mental faculties of a baby are not completely sentient.
[00:28:08]  Like, for example, when a baby is five days old, they're only awake like two hours a day.
[00:28:12]  They can't speak, they cannot really reason.
[00:28:15]  And sentience is like barely there for a one week old or a two week old.
[00:28:21]  In fact, a brain is not fully developed until a boy is 30 years old.
[00:28:25]  So, what I'm saying is that the growth of the human being continues all throughout this process.
[00:28:31]  If you allow that process to go uninterrupted, the abortionist argument is that we are going to interfere with that development because of some convenient, it's too hard to raise the human being.
[00:28:45]  Yeah, so I think you're making this like it has the potential to actualize sentience, sure.
[00:28:50]  But also, if it's going to gain sentience in three weeks, I just said no.
[00:28:54]  It's not going to be morally considerable to not be unalived or killed, sorry.
[00:28:59]  But yeah, so I kind of forgot one point that you made.
[00:29:04]  What was it?
[00:29:07]  So, just so we are clear, humans are bodies and minds.
[00:29:11]  Yes, so we are more than just.
[00:29:13]  I remember the point that you made about the baby.
[00:29:15]  Yeah, so we gain sentience in the womb.
[00:29:18]  Are you aware of that?
[00:29:20]  Yeah, around eight weeks, nine to ten weeks, brainwaves are detected.
[00:29:23]  What's your argument for nine to ten weeks?
[00:29:24]  Brainwaves?
[00:29:24]  Brainwaves?
[00:29:25]  Yeah, brainwaves.
[00:29:26]  Yeah, okay, you're a little snarky.
[00:29:28]  You've got to calm it down a little bit.
[00:29:29]  Yes, okay, cool.
[00:29:31]  So, around nine to ten weeks, brainwaves are detected.
[00:29:34]  A baby can respond to a mother's voice around 27 weeks.
[00:29:38]  Around 20 weeks, we have some understanding that a baby's cognitive ability is being formed.
[00:29:44]  These are approximations.
[00:29:45]  Yeah, what is the argument that brainwaves are sentient?
[00:29:50]  What is the argument?
[00:29:51]  We actually don't know.
[00:29:52]  We're inferring it.
[00:29:53]  Yeah, so sentience is going to be the subjective experience where you can have interest, desires, and motivations.
[00:29:58]  And I find it that.
[00:29:59]  Hold on, hold on, hold on.
[00:29:59]  How do you know a newborn has interest, desires, and motivations?
[00:30:02]  Yeah, so I find it that they have the subjective experience.
[00:30:05]  And I said it can include things like interest, desires, which is going to include people like you or me, and we have interest, desires, and motivations.
[00:30:11]  Yeah.
[00:30:11]  So, I also find it that they're going to have a subjective human experience at, I'd say, within the second trimester.
[00:30:19]  I don't hold 20 to 24 weeks or after that.
[00:30:22]  I hold a 12 week cautionary stance because we need to do this.
[00:30:25]  Let's just do it.
[00:30:26]  Let's do this all the way.
[00:30:28]  You want to go all the way on this?
[00:30:29]  Let's do it.
[00:30:30]  What proof do you have that anyone is sentient?
[00:30:32]  Yeah, so we have proof that they're sentient on the basis of their thalamocortical conjunction and their conjunctions with their cerebrum.
[00:30:40]  It's a faith claim.
[00:30:40]  Are you going to make an argument for that?
[00:30:42]  Yes, definitionally, you don't know that anybody else is sentient except yourself.
[00:30:46]  How?
[00:30:47]  Because you cannot prove consciousness.
[00:30:48]  We don't know where consciousness exists in the brain.
[00:30:50]  How?
[00:30:50]  Why don't we know?
[00:30:51]  We can't.
[00:30:51]  We don't know where it is.
[00:30:52]  You can't see somebody else.
[00:30:53]  Are you going to expand on why we don't know?
[00:30:55]  Yeah, again, I'm getting there.
[00:30:56]  Like, did they teach you to talk like this at the University of Illinois?
[00:31:00]  Like, you're paying for this?
[00:31:03]  Like, jeez.
[00:31:06]  Again, I want to get to the other questions, but like, yes, this is called the consciousness paradox.
[00:31:12]  You do not know if anybody else actually has consciousness except yourself.
[00:31:16]  Everybody else could be an illusion.
[00:31:18]  It could be a mirage.
[00:31:19]  It could be a projection of artificial intelligence.
[00:31:22]  Sentience is, by definition, a faith claim.
[00:31:25]  We can guess it, we can infer it.
[00:31:27]  You cannot measure it, and you cannot see it.
[00:31:30]  Yeah, sure.
[00:31:36]  I'm going to make the claim on the basis of empirical data that we have thalamocortical connections that work in conjunction with our cerebrum that is going to allow us to have thoughts, desires, and motivations and have the human subjective experience.
[00:31:50]  Which those, the mind, sentience, is what makes us able to have complex intelligence and higher rationale as humans.
[00:31:58]  Right, again, so all of that, you could detect the effects of consciousness.
[00:32:03]  You cannot actually see consciousness itself.
[00:32:05]  Does seeing consciousness matter?
[00:32:08]  We see it in their neurological structures and mechanisms.
[00:32:11]  Again, you see the effects of it.
[00:32:12]  We can keep on going in circles.
[00:32:14]  Of course, I believe sentience exists.
[00:32:16]  You cannot measure it, you cannot see it, because you cannot, there is no.
[00:32:21]  There is no objective proof that somebody else is sentient except yourself.
[00:32:25]  You can just look at the effects of it.
[00:32:26]  But that's fine.
[00:32:26]  Again, we just disagree.
[00:32:28]  We as pro lifers believe that in the essence of a human being is your value and your worth.
[00:32:33]  If a human being is at one week or 10 weeks or 12 weeks, the process of development starts at conception and goes all the way through.
[00:32:40]  Higher faculties, higher rationality is an added bonus alongside the growth curve of what it means to be a human being.
[00:32:47]  And you do not become more human because your IQ is higher.
[00:32:51]  Or less human, or if you have Down syndrome.
[00:32:53]  The spectrum does not work that way.
[00:32:54]  You're equally human all the way through.
[00:33:00]  For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.