Has Ukraine's latest attack on Russia taken us closer to nuclear war, or closer to peace? Does it change the balance of power at all? Wall Street legend David Sacks gives his well-informed assessment, then turns to the topic of AI. Are we getting close to robotic sentience, or even an AI takeover? Plus, iconic playwright David Mamet discusses Israel, the Covid era, and more. Watch every episode ad-free on members.charliekirk.com! Get new merch at charliekirkstore.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here, live from the Bitcoin.com studio.
Are we going to war because of a Pearl Harbor type event in Russia?
Is nuclear war looming because of a drone strike in Russia?
David Sachs explains what's going on with Russia-Ukraine.
Is artificial intelligence going to take over the world?
We talk about that as well.
And then legendary playwright David Mamet talks about the state of the West with his new great book, Disentitlement.
I think you're really going to enjoy it.
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Joining us now is a great friend and a clear thinker, an AI and crypto czar, and also one of the few people that I turn to whenever there is confusion on the Russian-Ukrainian situation, David Sachs.
David, great to see you.
Thank you so much for taking the time.
Also, the All In podcast, all the good stuff.
He is a cultural force.
David, let's just get back to the facts here so our audience can think about this correctly.
What exactly happened?
Zelensky launched a surprise drone strike attack into the interior of Russia.
Reports are saying that this is 30% of their nuclear potential bombing capabilities.
Some people are comparing it to Pearl Harbor.
Let's just start there.
What exactly factually happened when Zelensky approved this drone strike against Russia?
Well, the Ukrainians started planning this, apparently, over an 18-month period or so, they said.
And what they did is they smuggled in, I think, several civilian trucks that were stocked with drones, and they were able to get them near Russian Air Force bases, some of which were thousands of miles away, you know, all the way on the east coast of Russia.
And in a coordinated fashion, they released their drones.
They must have smuggled operators into the country as well, because these are not autonomous drones.
They're human-operated.
And I think the operators must have been relatively close to these Air Force bases, and they were able to simultaneously attack.
Several of these bases and attack a number of these bombers that were on the ground.
Now, I think the number of about 40 bombers destroyed and 30 percent that I think is exaggerated.
The articles that I've seen that, again, we don't know for sure, but the ones that I've seen seem to think that around 10 of these bombers were either destroyed or significantly damaged, which is still a.
Okay, that's helpful to know.
So the people that are saying that this is a precipice of World War III might be a little bit leaning in on the over-exaggeration and hyperbole.
A couple of days prior, David, Zelensky met with an American delegation of Senator Blumenthal and Lindsey Graham.
Do we have any evidence that...
No, I don't think – I haven't seen any evidence that would say that the Americans were involved and the White House has said that President Trump was not notified about it.
So I don't have any more information than that.
But look, I understand your suspicion.
A level deeper.
Yeah, no, I mean, the suspicion is rather glaring, right?
I mean, it's just the coincidence.
The timing is rather hard to stomach.
So, David, then where does this lead us?
Is it fair to say that this war is escalating, not de-escalating?
And has Russia retaliated against this strike so far?
Charlie, it's definitely an escalation.
You recall that during the Biden administration, for a couple of years, they were debating whether to allow the Ukrainians to use American and NATO weapons to launch attacks inside of Russia.
And then finally, in the last couple of months of the Biden administration, they allowed such attacks.
And it was considered to be a major escalation.
At the time.
And now we not only have attacks inside of Russia, we have attacks on Russia's nuclear triad.
By the way, the reason why these planes were out in the open this way, just sitting on a runway, is not because the Russians are stupid or something like that.
It's because under the nuclear arms control treaties, Stark and SALT II, Both the U.S. and the Russians are required to keep their nuclear bomber fleets sort of exposed in a way that the other side can kind of count them and see where they are.
So, you know, this attack will undermine the nuclear arms control treaties because the Russians would have to be pretty dumb now to keep their air assets just sitting on a runway like this.
That's such an important point, David.
That's super important.
So it is a pretty big escalation here because the Russians – Obviously, the Ukrainians aren't going to respect those.
And so now they're going to be incentivized to stop abiding by the terms of those treaties, which is quite unfortunate.
So this is an escalation, and we have to see how the Russians are going to head back.
And so the question then is, where does this leave the peace talks in Istanbul?
And where does this leave the United States of America?
This is not the best timing for those of us that want to see an end to this war, as we are seeing this massive drone strike.
And then, of course, Russia is saying, well, why are we even abiding by this treaty?
President Trump is signaling that he's frustrated with both parties.
What is the best possible realistic outcome in the coming weeks that we can expect now that it looks like we're heading towards another summer killing season?
Well, Charlie, in order for there to be a peace deal, there has to be some sort of overlap in what the two sides are willing to accept.
And I just don't see what that is at the present time.
The Ukrainians have said that they won't give up a square inch of territory.
I mean, that's what they've said.
And the Russians have said that they are not willing to agree to a ceasefire.
They want a permanent peace deal.
They think that a ceasefire would be the equivalent of trying to call time out in the middle of a war, and the Ukrainians will just use that time to regroup and rearm and take a losing position and fortify it.
So, you know, there doesn't appear to be a, you might say, like a contractual, somewhere for the two parties to agree on.
Again, the Ukrainians are unwilling to agree to a permanent peace that recognizes this de facto loss of territory, and they still think they're going to win the war.
That's what they're saying.
And the Russians are unwilling to accept a peace that doesn't address what they call the root causes of the conflict.
So I think that President Trump is maybe the only party here who genuinely wants peace.
I think he's doing everything he can to try and engineer a peace deal.
But I'm not sure that, again, that the parties themselves are interested in that deal.
Or they both want peace on their terms, and those terms are irreconcilable.
So I just see the war...
Just to step back for a second, Charlie, I mean, here's my larger frame on the war, is that there's really two wars going on.
There's the war of attrition, which is the war that the Russians are fighting, and its purpose is to demilitarize Ukraine.
And they're running a very slow, methodical, but ultimately efficient meat grinder operation that is killing roughly 20,000 Ukrainians a month and destroying their population.
That's what the Russians are doing.
The Ukrainians are fighting a slightly different kind of war.
They're fighting a PR war.
They want to create perceptual victories that they can use in the media to try and convince their Western backers that this war is not lost, that they can win this war.
Because the second that Western support for Ukraine ends, the war is over.
I mean, so it's of the highest priority for the Ukrainians to keep the And so you saw a really extreme example of this earlier in the year with the Kursk offensive.
This was an offensive that ultimately yielded no military benefit to Ukraine.
In fact, they lost something like 75,000 men.
Hundreds of vehicles were destroyed.
They took hundreds of miles of undefended Russian territory that was non-strategic, and then ultimately they were pushed back.
In the early days of this offensive, it was sold as a big humiliation of Putin that they were able to take Russian territory.
And this was sold in the media as a big victory for Ukraine.
And then when they were pushed out of And so this is the type of PR victory that Ukraine has been prioritizing in the war.
Now, this attack on the Russian bomber fleet, I would say, is somewhere in between.
There is some tactical benefit to Ukraine, and it didn't cost them very much.
And it was a surprise to the Russians.
The question is just how repeatable it is.
If they could do 100 of these attacks, that might impose costs on Russia that could change.
Russia's behavior in the war.
It might actually get Russia to escalate.
But in any event, that might be a game changer.
But there's no evidence they're able to wage 100 of these attacks.
This appears to be more of a one-off that caught the Russians off guard, surprised them, and now they're going to basically plug those holes.
So what is my point here?
My point is that there's a war of attrition going on in which Ukraine is losing and Russia has all the advantages.
They have more men.
More firepower, more artillery, even more drones, and more air power.
And so the Ukrainians are on a course to basically lose this war.
And so in response to that, the Ukrainians are fighting a PR war in which they try to convince their Western backers to keep supporting them.
It's a little bit like in the Hunger Games, where the plucky hero has to keep playing to the cameras in order to get the support of the capital.
And so this is what you see.
You saw Lindsey Graham there at the press conference in Kiev saying that Ukraine is going to win this war.
I don't believe this is Russian propaganda that they're not.
And I think the big danger here is just that somehow that Western publics are given this false sense that this war is winnable.
And I just don't think that that it is.
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So David, I want to talk about artificial intelligence and some of the doomerism.
Some people are talking about how it's going to take over the world and it's going to...
What is your take on the promise?
What is the optimistic take on artificial intelligence?
Well, I think the optimistic take is that it's a great opportunity that this is going to lead to enormous productivity.
We need a productivity boom in our economy if we're going to get out of this massive amount of debt that we're in.
And these tools are going to be incredibly powerful assistants that essentially power up employees, that these AI digital assistants, these AI agents are going to make employees more productive.
You're already seeing that in coding, for example, that there's all these new coding assistant tools that have really exploded in popularity.
And at the current time, they don't replace coders.
But they make them more productive.
And so coders really love them, and that's why they're taking off.
So I think the optimistic take here is the AI works for us.
And then the pessimistic take is that the disruption is so large that the humans can't keep up, essentially, would be the pessimistic take.
Yeah, and so do you think that at any point in time there is a chance to – Should there be a consolidation?
What do you make about this Whisper campaign that we already have reached artificial general intelligence and there is sentience, but we don't know it yet?
For example, ChatGPT news came out last week that there was a kill switch built within ChatGPT and the large language model basically overrode it.
What is your response to that kind of doomerism that this technology is going to get wildly out of control?
No, there's no evidence whatsoever of the AI ascension.
It's not.
We're not anywhere close to that.
Could we get to that point in the future?
There is a potential risk of that.
I'm not going to deny that.
It's very hard to put a percentage on that.
Obviously, it's been vividly portrayed in movies, things like that.
But people are acting like that's a guaranteed scenario, and I don't think you can know that.
I think it's very important for your viewers to understand that the so-called doomerism is not this grassroots sort of concern that's emerged.
It's a very well-funded, top-down, astroturfed campaign that's being waged by so-called effective altruist organizations.
And they're funded by a few very wealthy, very left-wing Silicon Valley technologies.
On AI.
And part of the goal here is regulatory capture for their companies.
Part of the goal is that these left-wing billionaires basically just believe in government control over everything.
And in fact, they not only want national AI controls, they want international AI controls.
And they want to basically empower globalist institutions to run these controls.
So it's global AI governance here is the goal.
And the tactic is to try and scare us into having such fear of AI that we're basically willing to hand this enormous power to the government and to these globalist institutions.
I think there are legitimate concerns about AI.
The future is unknown, and that can be scary.
But I don't want to hand all this power to the government because, I mean, the government wielding AI in an Orwellian way probably is the central risk of AI.
I mean, that is probably – woke AI in the hands of the deep state is probably the concern I have about.
The future of AI that I think is probably the highest probability, because there's evidence that that was already happening.
Remember when Google launched Black George Washington?
That wasn't an accident.
It was because their AI model had been infused with all these woke values.
And then you had this attempt by the Biden administration, through its executive order, to require that DEI be inserted into AI models.
And they were well on their way to setting up these globalist agreements.
That was a trajectory.
We were on this 1984-like trajectory before President Trump won with respect to AI.
And I think that is the central concern that we should guard ourselves against.
In closing here, David, what would you say are we winning the AI race right now against China?
If there was a score, what would the score be, U.S. versus China?
I think it's very competitive.
I think that the DeepSeek moment was real in the sense that before DeepSeek, I mean, it's almost a rounding error.
So they've gotten very good at AI very quickly.
Now, if you look at lower levels of the stack, which is the chips, the chip manufacturing, the chip design, we still have a pretty big lead at lower levels of the stack.
And I think that if we move quickly, we can build out more AI compute than them.
But they do have other advantages.
Like they're able to build out more power generation than we have.
You look at the Chinese power grid, it's doubled over the last decade.
That is what China's good at, mass production, when they put their mind to something.
David, you're awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, Charlie.
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Joining us now is a legend.
It is David Mamet.
I just saw him recently on Bill Maher.
He was amazing, legendary playwright, author of...
He wrote the screenplay for that, so this is pretty awesome.
David, welcome to the program.
Thanks for the time.
It's a pleasure to see you, Charlie.
So, David, there's a lot going on right now in the country.
I want to kind of just start with your new project that you have here, your book, The Disenlightenment.
Tell our audience about it.
I started writing political essays about 20 years ago, and I put them into three books.
The first one was called The Secret Knowledge about 20 years ago.
And then about five years ago, I wrote a book called Recessional.
And I started writing essays again during the COVID lockdown and the subsequent horror of the Biden years.
And I looked at all the essays.
I said, wait a second, we have so much supposedly unrelated nonsense What does it all end up to?
So that's what I tried to do in this book.
I tried to look at the various depredations of the chaos of the—what's a putch or a coup taken by the Obama-Bidenites?
And the outbreaks of anti-Semitism and so forth, and tried to take an overview and say, what is it all I'm up to?
who benefits.
So both peacefully looking at individual outrages like men and women's sports and open borders and so forth.
I tried to That the protagonist is undergoing.
And if you write a good play, they have to be formed into a plot, which is to say, thank you.
At the end of the play, you have to say, oh, I thought these were individual incidents, but now I perceive the overriding thrust of the play.
And the final moments, that's how you write a tragedy.
So that's what I tried to do with this book.
And what I came up with was this was not an attempt to take
but rather what they were was an open city.
That just as when Paris was abandoned, In 1944, the Nazis got out of town and the Allies had not yet taken over.
Paris was an open city.
That is, there was no overriding management, which meant that various groups were each trying to take power.
Sometimes they coalesced with each other against a third group.
Sometimes they worked on their own.
And because there was no law, you had a lot of people settling scores.
They would say, oh, the communists are fighting, the Trotskyists are fighting the Stalinists over there, and the resistance are fighting the Trotskyists over there.
And you know what I'm going to do?
I'm going to kill my grocer.
Because what the hell?
Nobody's getting blamed.
So I looked at the Biden years, and I said, what we're looking at is the abandonment of power by any representative government.
And there are various groups, each of which is going to say, I'm going to put in my thing.
One group.
Because the clue was that there was nobody home at the helm.
There was absolutely no one home.
So they say it was Jill Biden got to do what she wanted.
Hunter got to do what he wanted.
The peaceniks got to get out of Afghanistan.
The anti-Semites got to let Harvard go to hell and withhold aid from Israel.
The transsexual people got to say, we have to have women in women's sports.
And there were a bunch of people sitting around a table saying, well, wait a second, you got to withhold funding for Israel.
You know what I want?
I want to get out of Afghanistan.
So then it began to make sense that what you had was a conference table of low-level bureaucrats who'd never had power, now had the greatest power in the world.
And so that's what the book is about.
Yeah, and so the story of the last four years, and I want to talk about the book Disenlightenment, you're basically articulating that there was no leader.
Dad was gone, if you will, and the family was running amok.
And there was no structure and there was no order.
What does President Trump represent from a literary view in how you're trying to tell the story in the modern era?
Well, I'm not quite sure what you mean by literary view, but let me see what I can do with that.
Let me elaborate.
Well, because you were saying you're trying to view the current times from as a playwright, where you say, as we write a tragedy, we try to figure out what's going on.
What role does President Trump play as you look at things through the incidents into a plot?
I get it.
So the question really is, what is power?
And the best essay I know about that was Leo Tolstoy wrote a book called War and Peace.
Don't let the fact that it's a big, thick book in Russia scare you off.
Everybody read it.
It's the most compelling novel of all time.
And it's about certain people during the Napoleonic Wars.
And at the end of the book, he has this long epilogue, and he says, what is power?
He says, I'm not sure.
He says, the savage sees a railroad train and sees the puff of smoke.
And because he sees the puff of smoke first, he thinks the puff of smoke causes the railroad train.
Similarly, when we see people extruded by various political movements, and everyone has his or her favorite, we can say, "Oh, they are causing what comes after them," because obviously we saw them first.
But he says, to a certain extent, that can't be true, because Napoleon invaded Russia with five million men, and he went home with his tail between his legs, but a leader cannot give an order which cannot be obeyed.
For example, Napoleon could have said, we're going to invade Russia, and a lot of people thought that was a good idea, or wanted to go along, wanted to get out of the house, but he couldn't have said, let's invade Australia.
The question he asked is, what is power?
What is the relationship of the individual to the mass?
And that's a question that's been plaguing me for a long time.
And I thought it has to be that the mass extrudes the individual.
Who we see first, and that the individual turns around and says, wait a second, I got a lot of people following me by accident.
Jasmine Crockett's a perfect example, AOC.
I got a lot of people following me by accident.
I guess I'm a leader.
I better act like a leader.
What does a leader do?
Well, obviously, a leader panders to the people who are following him, right?
Because that's where his power comes from.
But there's another thing.
A lifetime, or my lifetime anyway, I've seen it a couple of times.
One was Winston Churchill, who galvanized an absolutely beaten, supine England to stand up and say, no, wait a second, we're going to win.
We're going to beat the Nazis.
And even if we don't, it's better to die on our feet.
And people took fire from that image.
The second is Donald Trump, who looked at the horror.
That the left had made of our magnificent country where people are whispering in the streets and people are arrested for walking on the Capitol grounds and thrown in jail and lose their livelihood because they wouldn't put something in their arm which they thought and may turn out to have been poison.
This guy comes along out of nowhere and says, okay, I get it.
I got it.
I'm going to be a leader.
I am going to have the—and he has the incredible, calm courage to stand up and say, yeah, it looks insoluble.
But it's not.
It's a bunch of small problems, and if we attack them, sometimes we're going to win and sometimes we're going to lose, but we're going to be free.
So that's what I see in Donald Trump.
I want to play a piece of tape that you had of a viral interaction with Bill Maher.
Let's play cut 361, please.
Come on.
So wait a second.
He didn't say the words, "I concede," and so that meant people rioted?
Yes.
What do you think January 6th was about?
What do you think January 6th was about?
It was about people who did not hear their leaders say, as every other leader in this country has said after an election, "OK, I lost.
We welcome the new guy." We had disagreements, but now we're all Americans.
When Obama took over, George Bush stood next to him and he said, "We want you to succeed, because when you succeed, America, Okay.
So what?
So what?
It inspires half the country to not accept the basic democratic principle that we have elections and when you lose...
They don't see themselves as the loyal— You, like me, have built a career out of nothing except talent and a little bit of luck and a lot of hard work, which are foolish.
Very good.
David, tell us more about the interaction and your thoughts here.
Well, I went on to say, too, here's a perfect example, that Bill, who's not a dumb person, he's a very smart person, you know, he's in a very difficult position, because a lot of his sympathies, which even come out, are with Americanism and with conservatism.
But he's got to be very, very careful about expressing them, because if he does, he loses his job.
I understand that.
But here's a perfect example.
He is saying that because Trump did not say the words, "I concede," That people rioted.
That's a silly statement to make.
I went on to say, wait a second, if a guy gets beat in the prize ring, he's beat.
He doesn't have to say, I conceded.
It's not necessary.
Even if he thinks the fight was fixed, he doesn't have to say, I conceded, because they gave the other guy the belt.
So that's what I was saying to Bill.
That's ridiculous because he doesn't say those words.
P.S. Anyone who's ever been in an, God forbid, in an unfortunate lawsuit and gets the shit beat out of him by somebody who's in the wrong, and it's happened to a lot of people, and if you're beaten, the judge says, go away, you don't have to say, I concede.
The verdict has come down.
Did he have some reservations about going out with good grace?
Yes, he did.
And God bless him because the election was stolen and we had four years of horror.
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David, your book, The Disenlightenment, I encourage everyone to check it out.
David, why are we seeing such a rise in anti-West, anti-Israel, and anti-Semitic fervor on our college campuses and across our culture?
Well, I think that's a very good question.
It's because of several reasons you know them all, and so does your viewership.
It's because we allowed it.
It's because previous administrations were in bed with various terrorist regimes.
Obama giving money and nuclear capacity to Iran and calling it the deal.
I asked a lot of people, what was the deal?
What did we get out of it?
The reason we're seeing it now is because the society is falling apart.
When the society is falling apart, they look for approximate victim.
Hitler came to power because the German society was falling apart after World War I. They were in an incredible state.
People were starving to death, and he wanted someone to blame.
The key to why we're seeing it now is Greta Thunberg.
Here's this little girl.
She decides that the Earth is burning, and so she becomes Time's Woman of the Year and wins the Nobel.
I don't know what the hell she ran.
Her whole thing is the sky is falling, run for your lives.
So she makes a pretty good living out of that, pretty good living out of that.
Turns out the Earth really isn't burning.
So what does she do?
She wants to cross-deck herself and go to Gaza, right?
What in the world does going to Gaza have to do with the world is burning?
It has nothing to do with it.
But she ran out of juice on the one thing, and so she's not going to give it up, so she goes to the other.
So the Jews have always been a proximate victim because we've been guests at everybody else's house for 2,000 years.
Now, for the first time, we aren't guests at everybody else's house because we've got our own country, and a lot of the world, when they want a proximate victim, says, wait a second.
You're crazy.
Don't you know what you are?
Don't you know that I get to wife beat you?
Are you nuts?
So the Jews have always been a victim because we had no other choice.
Now when we have a choice, the world goes crazy because we do have a choice.
That's because the wife says, do that again.
I'm going to call the cops.
The guy does it again.
She calls the cops.
That guy's going to jail.
But if she doesn't call the cops, there aren't any cops.
He's going to keep beating his wife.
So now there are the cops, and a lot of people are enraged because the go-to victim to excuse their own confusion and their own failures is saying that's enough now.
David, I love that answer.
And that goes to show that there is this relentless urge amongst most people to blame others for their problems.
And they try to blame the Jews, and they try to blame Israel.
And it's a country with half the world's jewelry, the size of New Jersey, gets almost all of the geopolitical protest, anger, and backlash.
Final question I have for you, David.
I want everyone to check out the book, The Disenlightenment.
What is the broader status of Western civilization?
And what do you believe can be best done to save the West?
Well, there have been a couple of great books that just came out recently.
One, of course, is Douglas Murray's book.
And what Melanie says is it's not a clash of civilizations that we're looking at.
It's a clash of civilization against savagery.
And I think that that's true.
She goes further to say that civilization, the idea is that Western civilization is Jewish.
It starts with the Old Testament, and it was taken up by the Christians.
And through the medium of Jesus Christ.
And it's the idea that the individual has rights given by God, and there are certain things we should not do to each other.
This is civilization that led to the founding of the United States of America, which, if you read the Declaration of Constitution, they all come right out of the Torah.
It's all Judeo-Christian philosophy.
What can be done to save it?
What Trump is doing and what the right is doing is saying, let's go back to law.
It's not our job to help to better our neighbor's life.
And this is the difference between the Golden Rule and its precursor, which is what Rabbi Hillel said, is the essence of the Torah.
What's hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor.
It's very different than the other idea, which is do others as they want to do to you, which is the growth of liberalism, and we've seen the failure of it.
David, thank you so much for your time.
The Disenlightenment is the book.
You are a legend, and I love your work, and so thank you so much, and together we'll keep on fighting to save the West.
