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April 7, 2025 - The Charlie Kirk Show
34:58
What Tariffs Mean + DOGE in the Ivy League
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Hey everybody, Tan the Charlie Kirk show.
We take the 30,000 foot view of how Bill Clinton started this trade debacle.
One of my favorite interviews we've done in a while with Alex Shea, where he asked the questions at Brown University.
He tries to doge his university.
It is an amazing conversation with Alex Shea from Brown University.
And if you send your kid to one of these Ivies, I'll tell you what, it's really something else.
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Buckle up, everybody.
Here we go.
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
I want to thank Charlie.
He's an incredible guy.
His spirit, his love of this country.
He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
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News is moving so quickly.
It is moving at such an accelerated pace right now.
That it is difficult to keep up.
It is moving so quick we have to basically have five different chats open of different responses from foreign nations regarding tariff threats, regarding reciprocity.
So there is a lot going on here.
But instead of going into all the details, because that's just going to change by every five minutes, I think we need to take a step back and reset the foundational framework to reset a 30,000-foot view of exactly what's going on here.
President Donald Trump has been railing against bad trade deals for the last 30 or 40 years.
President Donald Trump, as a businessman, identified trade deficits.
And the way trade is supposed to be constituted is we do what we do best and you do what you do best and we will barter.
By doing so, you will make us wealthier and we will trade and we will both be able to have a flourishing future.
What ended up happening in the 1990s and early 2000s, in the 1990s there were three critical mistakes made by Bill Clinton.
The entrance of China into the World Trade Organization, the NAFTA, and also the repeal of the idea of investment bank and commercial banks.
That's a whole separate issue for another time, but the conflation of investment and commercial banks allowed the cheap flow of money to go into the capital markets in a way that that specific deregulation I think actually led us through the 2008 financial crisis and the lords of easy money leading us closer and closer to fiscal and financial apocalypse.
Now, free trade did make the stock market go up.
Nobody is doubting that.
Unlimited, unfettered free trade did make the 10% do very well.
I am part of the 10%.
I can say this as somebody who is part of the evil 10% of the country.
When you are on the upper part of the socioeconomic ladder, specifically if you do work that does not involve your hands but only involves your brain, that does not involve your body but only involves your brain, free trade is traditionally a great idea because we became an information economy and a consumer economy and not an industrial one.
We thought because we were entering into a technological revolution, because that we were entering into a brave new world of unfettered, unapologetic free trade, that we would no longer need to make stuff.
In fact, that is what the third world does.
The idea was that the third world will make our products for us and that we will be able to become wealthier.
Francis Fukuyama famously wrote a book called The End of History.
The assumption was permanent U.S. dominance.
It was a post-Cold War mentality.
It was that neoliberalism is the end of history.
Fukuyama wrote in The End of History that this will be the end of war, that neoliberalism was the apex of civilization.
Neoliberalism was, of course, invade the world, invite the world.
The idea of the Western liberal order will be able to be spread to all corners of the world, and we will end the eschaton.
The eschaton, of course, is a Christian view of when Christ rules Earth for a thousand-year reign.
Immunitizing the eschaton is what the free traders thought they were going to get.
In fact, I remember growing up, I was in sixth grade at MacArthur Middle School, right there on Palatine Road, right where I grew up.
And I remember we would watch, they had these morning news bits.
I forgot the name of it.
Maybe Blake would know.
It was...
Like five to ten minutes long.
It was like mandatory must-runs.
I remember one of them.
I'll think of it.
I bet I could find it in a break.
Anyway, it was the news clips.
In one of them, they said, can you find a single thing when you're walking through a parking lot at Walmart and ask people what they bought that was made in America?
And the answer was no.
And, of course, all my sixth grade classmates were like, that's wrong, that's wrong.
And I remember the teacher would interject.
And I wouldn't even say the teacher was liberal.
The teacher was neoliberal.
And the teacher would interject and say, no, this is a good thing.
This made us wealthier.
We don't have to do that work.
We are liberated.
In fact, what we were told, what I was told growing up, is that free trade would then make it where the Russians will be wearing Levi jeans, eating McDonald's, taking selfies.
Well, at the time, just listening to iPads, iPods.
And it's not even that it's a bad thing for other things to be made in other countries.
Of course not.
We want a competition.
We want markets.
We do not want no trade.
Instead, it is when nothing is made in America, or next to nothing, when it's such a small percentage.
When making something in America, almost people look differently at you.
Why would you do that?
Now, we also must be fair.
We have to be fair in our analysis.
Partially, but not mainly, partially as to why the corporate class decided to move these jobs overseas is that unions got very greedy in the 1970s and 1980s.
This is a lesser appreciated component of this analysis is unions thought that they were too big for their bridges.
They were like, what are you going to like leave?
Literally some of the labor unions would look at the corporate class and say, we want a 40% increase in wages.
We want more days off.
And the corporate class decided to get back at the unions.
became less competitive.
Now, again, a lot of the Trump coalition is union labor.
However, as Blake astutely pointed out, find one part of the American economy that is mass That isn't totally awful.
It's really hard to find.
In the fact where mass unionization, especially public sector unionization, public sector teacher unions, Public sector janitorial unions, public sector government unions.
I think that there's a place, for example, a carpenter's union.
They're very good at training.
They're very good at apprenticeship.
However, there needs to be a balance between capital and labor.
And what happened, of course, is the capital, the corporate class, having no allegiance to the United States of America and the fact that unions overreached and unions got cocky.
They looked at the corporate class in the eye and said, we're American labor.
What, are you going to really go and make that trinket in China?
And the McKinsey type said, yep, that's exactly what we're going to do, actually.
And it was made easier by this decision.
Understand what President Donald Trump is doing is fixing and remedying the mistakes of past.
If you had to go look at what is the original sin as to why we are in the place that we are in, there are many places, there are many decisions, but the one where we actually have it on tape, rarely do you have the original sin on tape.
And it was televised on C-SPAN.
And that is when we decided to make what was then a third world and maybe a second world country to have entrance into the World Trade Organization.
This was a glide path.
We did not do this to try and make us have greater harmony with China.
In fact, you could make an argument that our relations with China were probably better before China went into the World Trade Organization.
The free trade zealots told us that trade will bring us peace.
In fact, it turns out that mass trade with China brought us closer and closer to conflict.
President Donald Trump is fixing this problem from Bill Clinton.
Play cut 121.
The WTO agreement will move China in the right direction.
It will advance the goals America has worked for in China for the past three decades.
And, of course, it will advance our own economic interests.
Economically, this agreement is the equivalent of a one-way street.
It requires China to open its markets with a fifth of the world's population, potentially the biggest markets in the world, to both our products and services in unprecedented new ways.
All we do is to agree to maintain the present access, which China enjoys.
Chinese tariffs from telecommunications products to automobiles to agriculture will fall by half or more over just five years.
For the first time, our companies will be able to sell and distribute products in China made by workers here in America without being forced to relocate manufacturing to China, sell through the Chinese government, or transfer valuable technology for the first time.
We'll be able to export products without exporting jobs.
There's still joint technology transfers.
We are not allowed to sell our products in China.
Our technology companies are not allowed to sell in the interior of China.
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President Trump's daily tracker of approval rating went up last week after the application of tariffs.
It's so fascinating to me.
I feel as if I live in two different realities.
And I say this, by the way, as someone who is very invested in the stock market.
Thankfully, I have a great person and team that helps manage that stuff.
I was only down a couple percent.
Well, a lot of other people were down a lot more.
You could have hedges, buy the VIX, you can have buffers, all that stuff.
But I feel as if I live in two different realities.
I was walking around Arizona.
A certain part of Phoenix, Arizona this weekend, and a very wealthy guy came up, and he was very worried.
He came up to me, Charlie, what does Trump think with these tariffs?
What do you think?
I said, look, everything I'm going to tell you privately, I also say publicly, I have no inside information.
And if I did, I certainly wouldn't just share it with you.
Very worried.
He said, you know, my portfolio's down, my market's down.
Kind of almost freaking out.
And then in the other's reality, when I went out to dinner with my wife, a guy comes up to me.
And he says, Charlie, I'm a welder.
This is the greatest week I've ever seen in politics.
I said, what do you mean?
He said, finally, someone is giving the middle finger to the corporate class and they're going to defend those of us that work for a living.
Us blue-collar workers have a fighter in the White House and we've been waiting for it.
Now, I'm not even saying one is right and one is wrong.
They both are very valued constituencies.
One is the capital class and one is the labor.
And properly understood and properly balanced, You have hopefully some brokered equilibrium between capital and labor.
Understand, the top 10%, which I am part of and many of the audience are part of, own about 88% of the equities.
Now, it's a little deceiving because a lot of teachers and a lot of janitors and a lot of people that have 401ks, they might get blended into a major wealth management fund.
Nobody is happy with what's going on with the stock market.
But again, 10% of Americans own 88% of equities.
The next 40% own 12% of the stock market.
And the bottom 50% has debt.
They have credit card bills.
They rent their homes.
And they have auto loans.
And they've been screaming and crying for some relief.
What's even worse is if Trump didn't do anything about this.
And I'm not even talking about economically because this is a risk.
This is a gamble.
We must be honest with this.
This is an economic gamble.
There is a risk associated with it.
I think it's going to work out.
I trust Stephen Miller, and I trust Susie Wiles, and I trust Scott Besson, and I trust J.D. Vance, and of course, most importantly, I trust President Trump.
But there is a risk.
There is a gamble involved in all of this.
But the greater risk would be if you run on tariffs and you don't apply them.
That would be the end of democracy as we know it.
That means you could pander to a constituency endlessly to just go get their votes and you don't do it.
That, to be perfectly honest with you, is far more horrifying and terrifying to the health of our politics than the stock market going down.
And I know the stock market right now going down is hurting a lot of people.
And look, this could go terribly wrong.
Europe and China are gonna be the main countries.
That will most likely escalate.
There could be a de-dollarization.
A lot of our wealth in this country is built on the fact that we are the world's reserve currency.
This is a high wire.
This is a live wire act.
One that I support.
The markets knew this was coming and Trump gave plenty of notice and still we are seeing a sell-off.
But I think back to that blue-collar guy that came up to me.
Said this is the best week of politics I've ever seen.
And the contrast.
The people that own in the market think this is terrible.
The people that have built the country think this is wonderful.
I would like to have them both think something is wonderful.
However, if you look at the last five years, Wall Street has done very, very well.
Main Street has not done very well the last five years.
Been crushed by inflation, being crushed by consumer debt.
They don't own homes.
And they have been screaming at their politicians, please...
Listen to us.
Please do something for us.
And that is what Donald Trump embodied, which is why, regardless of what Trump said or how they attacked him, the working class continued to rise up in record numbers.
And now President Trump is delivering it.
He is the promise keeper president.
We've seen that on the border.
The idea of these tariffs is to smoke out behavior targeted at American exports.
And some of it is direct tariffs, but it's not only that.
There's a lot of howling going on right now, and some of it is understandable.
A lot of countries got used to the existing system.
Well, Trump is starting our thousand mile journey with a great big leap.
But most importantly is he's fulfilling the promises that he made.
And you want to see a much more dramatic, horrifying political moment if President Trump would have just said, ha, just kidding, just like ever the politician.
I say one thing and do another.
Instead, it's promises made, promises kept.
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Okay, this is an amazing story.
So I have a new obsession, which is I believe the fight of the 21st century is going to be a fight against the bureaucracy.
Not just the bureaucracy and government, but bureaucracy in general.
Very similar to how men, as they get older, middle-aged men, develop an intractable, seemingly irreversible beer belly, middle fat.
It seems as if government, churches, charities, companies, and of course colleges develop that kind of mid-level management, job justification, paper shuffling, desk worker.
Industry. In fact, bureaucrat literally means desk worker from its original French.
Doge exists to try to get rid of the bureaucracy.
What do you do here is the lethal weapon against bureaucracy.
The question of what do you do here might be the most effective weapon against bloat that I have seen.
Well, we have a very special guest, someone that goes to Brown University, so obviously he's very smart, and he decided to do something I love.
His name is Alex Shea.
I believe that's how you say it.
He's Brown University class of 2027, software engineer and a journalist.
So what he decided to do, he's a sophomore at Brown University, which is incredibly liberal, as you know.
He decided to email 3,800 Brown staff members with a very simple question.
Describe what tasks you performed in the past week.
Shay said he got about 20 responses to his email, including one of them was F off.
Shay created a website called Bloat at Brown, where he listed off every employee at the school and used AI to rate their jobs in terms of legality, redundancy, and so-called BS.
Shea has pointed out that Brown still has dozens if not hundreds of obvious DEI jobs and direct defiance to President Trump's executive order.
So why should Brown keep on getting taxpayer money?
So Alex Shea is a customer.
Alex Shea is allowed to ask questions.
Alex Shea pays a ton of money for Brown to educate him.
But when Alex Shea starts to ask the people that he employs...
What do you do here?
He gets reprimanded.
And Alex Shea joins us now.
Alex, welcome to the program.
Tell us all about this hilarious yet very important project.
Alex, please.
Hi, Charlie.
So you got that right.
About three weeks ago, two weeks ago, something like that, I sent this email to all of Brown's administrators.
And it's essentially just a press request.
That's what it is.
I'm acting in my capacity as a journalist for the Brown Spectator.
And I'm trying to get...
A read on what's going on at Brown University.
What are all these people doing?
And this was even before, like a few days ago, the Trump administration just announced that they're going to take away Brown's federal funding because of DEI and antisemitism.
But this is even before that.
Because Brown, get this.
Brown costs $93,000 a year for one year of college.
And I know that you say college is always a scam, Charlie, but it's seeming more and more like that these days.
Because where does all this money go?
No, that's an excellent question.
And it's pretty much like you said, 3,805 non-faculty staff members.
These are not professors who are teaching the classes.
These are people who sit at desks and they push around papers and nobody exactly knows what they do because they won't tell me.
No, I just, first of all, I love this.
And I want to just say as a macro point, when high IQ driven That's fair to say.
And so you have a you have yet you have a you score jobs for BS jobs that waste money.
So basically, you are the customer at Brown for $93,000 a year.
You're a journalist, you're trying to figure out what the heck are we paying all this money for in Providence, Rhode Island, you are the client.
Brown employs more than 4,400 employees but fewer than 1,000 are instructors of any kind.
So that means 75% of jobs at Brown are not instructors.
What BS jobs have you found at Brown University?
Well, that's a great question.
So at our website right now, bloats.brownspectator.com, we have about 49 people that are dedicated to DEI roles.
And again, these are the people that just cost Brown $510 million from the Trump administration because they're refusing to comply with the directives about DEI.
But just in general, it's like there are multiple people, Charlie, that are dedicated to ad sales for the Alumni Magazine.
I didn't even know that the Alumni Magazine I think?
general. But the funny thing is that I couldn't find that many articles that were written by these seven-time full-time staffers because they make freelancers and students write the actual articles.
So it's just bloat like that in the alumni magazine, in all of these various offices that as a student, I wouldn't even think...
To think that we had such a thing, that these offices existed, because...
They don't really interact with students.
They're pretty much just behind the scenes.
But they're raising the cost of tuition that are making schools like Brown, like again, they always say that the Ivy League is supposed to be an economic ladder, you know, that poor kids can go to the Ivy League schools and they'll turn out successful in life.
But that is really being put to the test by this enormous price tag and sort of disregard for financial planning of any sort.
Alex, you have, there's two components here I want to make sure we cover.
First, I want to go through these five categories because I think it's hilarious and so astute.
And then I want to talk about the disciplinary inaction.
And then I have a third point that I do want to make.
So you have these five buckets, if you will, that you have distilled of trying to organize what these people do.
I want you to go through them.
You have flunky, you have goon, duct taper, box ticker, and taskmaster.
Explain. Right.
So, Charlie, I know that you're a conservative, but these categories were actually jumped up by David Graeber, who is an anthropologist, and he's hardly conservative.
He's a left anarchist.
But I think this is sort of one of the issues, really, that should be apolitical, that people at both ends of the political spectrum should see, is that there are a lot of these people with sort of confusing jobs.
And just to run through them, the flunkies are people like administrative assistants.
There are a lot of assistance for these mid-level bureaucrats.
Why all of these mid-level bureaucrats need assistance, again, is unclear.
Are they really that busy?
Maybe they are, but maybe.
Graber says is that the bureaucrats are just there to make them feel more important.
And that also seems like a very plausible explanation.
Again, we can't know for sure unless we hear from them.
And that's why we sent that email.
Goons are those...
Who sort of fight people on behalf of the university, deceive people.
Everybody in the communications office, essentially.
I know the type.
Keep going.
Yes. And in particular, the Brown spokesperson has been putting a lot of misinformation out about me in the press because he's been saying that this site is using confidential information.
He's been telling that to all the reporters.
And that's not true, but we can get into that later.
But your title, your job description, that's not confidential.
The duct tapers are the third category.
These are sort of people.
Think about...
All the IT staff that is dedicated to maintaining an upkeep of all these various data systems.
At Brown, the Wi-Fi goes out all the time.
The IT systems are not great.
Instead of just having an end-to-end solution that is a well-designed system, they just have a whole lot of IT staff just sitting around.
Fixing things when it breaks.
Duct taping it, so to say, instead of just designing it well in the first place.
Box stickers are essentially people, compliance officers...
DEI officers that just go around and they just essentially check boxes to see, are you doing this?
Are you doing this?
You don't really add any value.
They're just making sure that everybody else toes the line.
And then the taskmasters are just these mid-level administrators that just boss around the lower-level administrators and give them tasks.
Maybe they're writing memos.
Maybe they're drafting strategic action plans.
How would this benefit students?
I don't know, but I'm sure they think that they are very, very important.
And so, this is one of my favorite distillations.
I want all of you to think about when you send your kid to college.
So, Ed Brown, just to repeat.
4,400 employees at Brown.
1,000 of them are instructors of any kind.
And that's even being generous because that includes teacher's assistants.
1,000 is a generous number.
So there are 3,400 people that are either flunkies, goons, ductabers, box tickers, or taskmasters for $93,000 a year.
And look, this would be even more hilarious if it wasn't tragic.
And by the way, Alex, you are a great example as to why they do not want the Ivy League to be based in merit, why they don't want Asians or whites to come to the Ivy League.
They just want people...
You ask too many questions!
You're way too disagreeable for them.
You're like, actually, no, what do you do here?
What is this?
And you're kind of doing your own micro-doge.
One thing I want to make sure I express.
If anyone out there...
I know someone at Harvard.
I want this...
You should start a whole movement of this.
We should have one at Harvard.
We should have one at Princeton.
We should have one at Yale.
We should have one at Stanford where students just start mass emailing the entire faculty and saying, I go to school here and I pay $100,000 a year.
What did you accomplish last week?
And start organizing the entire faculty database at the school that you are going into debt for to justify why they exist.
This could start a mass movement.
And by the way, I'm gonna also push Linda McMahon and the Trump administration to demand this info as well.
What do you do here?
And organize everybody in those five categories.
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Alex Shea continues with us.
So you've done this.
So let me just make sure.
You email all these faculty.
You ask these questions.
How has the university responded to you?
The university that you are paying, Alex Shea.
Right. So this has been reported pretty widely at this point.
And I'm backed by FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression.
And they put out a blog post that pretty much outlies the entire situation.
But according to what FIRE is saying is Brown is pursuing a preliminary review against me for four different charges.
They're saying it's emotional and psychological harm.
They're saying violation of operational rules.
They're saying misrepresentation.
Because I said I'm a reporter for the Brown Spectator and that's not recognized by the Student Activities Office.
That must mean it's misrepresentation.
And the last charge is invasion of privacy.
Again, for publishing people's names and job titles that Brown himself publishes on the internet.
And so again, it's not really clear.
How that's confidential.
Now, in Rhode Island, where Brown is, is we have a state law, even, that called the Student Journalist Freedom of Expression Act, which protects student journalism, like is in my case.
I think this is really just evidence of double standards that Brown has.
I don't know if your audience knows this, Charlie, but Charlie Kirk is also banned from Brown University's campus.
This was because of an incident that happened.
a few years ago where Brown told him he couldn't film.
And so Charlie Kirk came to our campus and he wasn't filming.
He was compliant with all these rules.
But some other students were filming him and those got posted online and And that was deemed to be in violation of Brown's filming policy.
And so now Charlie is unfortunately banned from Brown's campus.
Take this into account.
What Brown has been doing with these pro-Palestinian protesters.
In 2023, a group of like about 30 of them were just trespassing in an administrative building.
Again, what I'm doing is speech.
What they're doing is trespassing.
And they actually got arrested and charged with that.
And then Brown just decided to drop the charges because they didn't want to inflame tensions or something like that.
Then when there was the encampment, the people who were in the encampment, they struck a deal with the Brown administration that they wouldn't be held to the normal disciplinary proceedings and that expulsion and suspension would be off the table for all of them.
And again, I think this just shows that there is a clear double standard here about how people are treated.
I mean, like myself and Charlie, it's just speech.
It's freedom of speech.
But when people get into disruptive actions and...
Breaking actual laws?
As long as they're on the left, they're pretty much protected.
Yeah, so just to be clear, instead of asking the people that you employ what they do all day long, if you would host, I don't know, like a Students for Justice of Palestine encampment in the middle of Brown's campus, then that's perfectly fine.
They would settle with you.
But going around and asking bloated bureaucrats that are duct taper, box tickers...
Alex, one minute remaining.
Would you say that Brown is a place where, I don't want to, again, scam is kind of my thing, college scam, but how would you describe Brown now after this experience to the country, to the nation?
How would you categorize it?
I think it's elitist.
That's the way that I would sum it up, is that they're coming after people who espouse more...
Right-leaning libertarians and conservatives, they don't come after the far left, the pro-Palestine people who are breaking actual rules.
And also just think about the price tag, $93,000 a year.
Financial aid is not going to cut it for a lot of people.
And so people just can't go to Brown.
And so this is elitism, plain and simple.
They only want to be accessible to people that are on the coast, that can afford this price tag and have those trendy, progressive elite.
the bloats.
That's not acceptable at a place like Brown University.
Alex, you're a good man.
You're going to succeed in whatever you want to do.
And if you ever want to go work for the real Doge, I'll be happy to write you a letter of recommendation.
We need super geniuses and hyper patriots like yourself that can ask the right questions.
And I want to just repeat this.
I hope you find counterparts at...
Cornell, yes, Dartmouth, Blake, but I'm sure they're not as bad.
Columbia, there should be doges of every single major Ivy League school, every school in the country.
And boy, I hope Brown, metaphorically, metaphorically, has to be, let's just say, go through a transformational process.
I'll be kinder.
Alex, thanks so much.
God bless you, man.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us, as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.
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