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Sept. 10, 2024 - The Charlie Kirk Show
37:47
If There Is No God, There Are No Rights ft. Frank Turek
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Hey everybody, my conversation with Frank Turek from Cross-Examined.
We talk about the resurrection, how Christians should vote this cycle, and what Christians should think of regarding Donald Trump and more.
Email us as always freedom at charliekirk.com.
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Buckle up everybody, here we go!
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks!
I want to thank Charlie.
He's an incredible guy.
His spirit, his love of this country.
He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
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Joining us now is one of my favorite people, Frank Turek.
Frank, good to see you, man.
The great Charlie Kirk, man.
Oh, well, thank you.
I'll give you a haircut because it's hard to go over.
But yes, Frank, thank you so much for everything you do.
We had a great event on Friday night.
We did.
Friday night was just an amazing event at Calvary Chapel, Tucson.
And there were so many great questions and so many great testimonies.
You know, Charlie, there was one, this lady got up to the microphone, she had to be in her 20s, and she looked at you and she said, Charlie, you changed my life because I went to AmFest by accident.
Like, how do you go to AmFest by accident?
She was so sweet.
I wanted to get the full story there.
Anyway, she met her future husband at AmFest and went from a feminist To now somebody who is a conservative because of AmFest.
She wants to be a mom.
Oh yeah, yeah.
So it was just an amazing night.
It was a Hands of Hope night, which is a crisis pregnancy center there in Tucson that we were trying to help raise money for.
And we're trying to encourage people to vote pro-life, particularly here in Arizona.
Big time.
139.
Amendment 139.
No on 139, ladies and gentlemen.
It's a real challenge right now.
It is.
Yeah.
As you pointed out, the abortion lobby is very well funded, and they are also shading the truth quite a bit.
And if this passes in Arizona, you could kill your child up to the moment of birth.
It's a Kamala Harris position, actually.
It is.
It would be the Kamala Harris abortion agenda in Arizona.
That's right, yeah.
And so, no on 139, ladies and gentlemen.
We had a great turnout and great spirit, though.
We did.
I gotta say, it was really terrific.
They said it was the biggest event they've done in quite some time.
It was.
Robert Furrow, the pastor at Calvary Chapel Tucson was great, a great host, and we took over an hour of questions.
I don't think this is online yet, but it will be at some point.
Oh yeah, and it was really good dialogue, really good back and forth.
So Frank, you do campus stuff.
Oh yeah, all the time.
Campus stuff.
I'm in town right now to do Arizona State.
So to walk our audience through your normal campus presentation, they're intimately aware of mine, but for yours, I want to make sure you introduce yourself.
What is your schtick that you do?
Well, I wrote a book, co-wrote a book, about 20 years ago called I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist with Dr. Norman Geisler, who was A brilliant man who, by the time he died, Charlie, they figured out he had either written, co-written, or updated 129 books in his life.
Wow.
This guy was a machine, and I learned just about everything I know about Christianity from him, and the evidence for Christianity.
So when we go to a college campus, It's called, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, and I present the evidence that Christianity is true through four basic sections.
Does truth exist?
Does God exist?
Are miracles possible?
And, is the New Testament telling us the truth about the Resurrection?
So that's your presentation on campus?
That's it!
And then I take questions, and questions go on for an hour, sometimes more.
And, of course, we get questions from atheists and people of other faiths, and all that is live-streamed.
If they go to our YouTube channel, Cross-Examined YouTube channel, two words, Cross-Examined, you can see every event we do.
And then we take the Q&A just like you guys do from your college campus events.
We splice it up.
Here's a question.
Here's an answer.
And so our website's crossexamined.org, and the YouTube channel is Two Words Cross-Examined.
So we've been doing this for about 18 years now.
And our events are probably an hour and a half of me presenting, and then an hour or more of Q&A.
Wow, so let's go through those four points.
Miracles exist.
Well, the first one is, does truth exist?
Because a lot of people are saying, you know, there's no truth, you have your truth, I have my truth.
And whenever someone says, there is no truth, I always ask them, is that true?
Is it true that there's no truth?
Yeah, it's a self-defeating statement to say there's no truth, which means relativism and postmodernism are false because they claim it's true, there's no truth.
So it's just using logic in point one, does truth exist?
That's the first one.
Then we move on to does God exist, and we give three arguments for the existence of God.
The first argument is the argument from the beginning of the universe, known as the cosmological argument.
The second argument is the argument from design, known as the teleological argument.
So the universe is designed, highly fine-tuned, and you and I are designed, and life in general is designed.
In fact, the natural laws that drive the universe are designed.
The natural laws themselves!
Laws come from lawgivers.
They're very precise, they're very consistent.
If you were to change any one of a number of factors about our universe virtually imperceptibly, including the natural laws themselves, Charlie, we wouldn't even exist.
So that's the fine-tuning argument for God, the design argument.
And the third argument for God is the moral argument, which you and I traffic in all the time.
Yeah, that's where I spend most my time.
By the way, Charlie, just to detour a little bit, you just did an unbelievable job at a something called a jubilee what what tell tell tell people about that i don't know if i i think i did okay no no no no i survived ladies and gentlemen you got to see these clips they're well not just the clips but the whole thing yeah it's it's out of youtube channel i want to say it's called jubilee yeah and they were very honest brokers to their credit and you've never quite seen anything like it right frank no i'm calling it the circle of satan
That would be a fair description.
That was hard.
I mean, it was hard because for the stamina, and by the way, that was an hour and a half.
They didn't use about an hour of it, and I was actually okay with it because the topics we did, they got really messy, the stuff they edited out.
So imagine two and a half hours, you do two and a half hours of Q&A, but you're sitting there and it's the best argument that they have constantly coming at you.
And the best way I could explain it to the audience that didn't see it, we will be playing some tape maybe this hour, but definitely in future episodes, I sit in the middle and there's 20 people around me and they can rush to the chair and debate me on whatever the topic is.
And then as soon as they're not doing as well, they can get voted off, so on and so forth.
Right, and the first topic you were covering was abortion.
So you have 20 college, liberal, woke students surrounding Charlie Kirk.
One of them goes up and debates him, and when their colleagues say, hey, this kid isn't doing very well against Charlie, somebody else rushes in!
and so you are just debating 20 people at once but not only 20 people but 20
people who have had time to think the topic through all right when I am
having a completely different cop like so I'm having conversation with you
meanwhile there's 19 other people that are thinking through the best point that
they have so they don't tell you the topics Oh, alright.
do but think about it if you and I are talking about you know does miracles
exist yeah somebody's sitting you know over there could be talking about this
truth exist thinking about truth exists so they're coming up with a separate
point that I haven't even oh all right does that make sense yeah yeah they're
fresh I think yeah from a sports standpoint right We're playing basketball and they constantly can substitute.
It's more like boxing.
You know, you get somebody on the ropes and there's a new guy that comes in.
That's exactly right.
And so if you think I did well, Frank, that's very touching.
I will say, I think I kept my calm well.
You did.
Which is half the battle in this.
Right.
You should see the comments on it in YouTube, folks.
A lot of people are saying, these kids, they get too emotional.
It just takes away from any argument they have.
And so you held your ground very well.
You're very calm and cool.
That is a hard gig.
Really hard gig.
That was one of the hardest ones that I did.
And the topics were about this kind of the moral argument.
Yeah.
So build that out.
All right.
The moral argument says, essentially, that If there's one thing morally wrong, one thing, just one, it's wrong to torture babies for fun, it's wrong to kill six million people in a holocaust, it's wrong to shoot up nine-year-olds in a school, then there has to be a God.
Why?
Because if there is no standard beyond humanity, That we're obligated to obey, then everything's just a matter of opinion.
That would just be your opinion against a school shooter's opinion or your opinion against Hitler's opinion.
Well, we know these issues aren't just a matter of opinion.
It's really wrong to murder school children.
It's really wrong to murder six million people in a Holocaust.
If that's the case, there must be a standard of really right outside of ourselves that we're all obligated to obey.
That we're all appealing to.
Yes, that standard is God's nature.
If God doesn't exist, nothing's ultimately right or wrong.
Now, kids on a college campus... No, this is where all my conversations get to spill back to, Frank, and this is what people understand.
And you get it, because you're on these campuses more than I am, actually, sometimes.
But that we'll be talking about abortion, but then it will go back down to, but who's to say it is wrong?
Who's to say it's wrong?
And eventually there will be this tension where they say, well, morality is derived amongst the group or the tribe.
That's what they'll say.
That morality is based on up or down vote and just kind of societal norms and customs.
But if a society decided abortion was wrong and outlawed, they would still say, no, it's a right.
See, so they don't agree with their own premise.
That's very interesting.
I've never heard.
So build that out a little bit.
Well, if they're saying morality is just decided by human beings, the group, what happens when a society many years ago decided that slavery was okay?
Did that make it okay?
No.
What if our society one day decides— Slavery I use, but no.
The abortion thing is so true, because I would say, okay, let's go to Oklahoma, where the group has decided abortion is wrong.
They'd say, no, no, no, they're wrong.
How can they be wrong, if it's relative?
See, if morality is just decided by human beings, then we couldn't even prosecute the Nazis for what they did.
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So, Frank, let's go deeper into this, because the audience thinks what we have is a political divide in this country, but it's really a moral divide.
It's a worldview divide.
What do you mean by that?
Well, there are people that think that they are the moral arbiters of right and wrong, and whatever they think is true about morality, when in fact, if it's just a personal opinion on their part, then they really don't have any moral rights.
It's just their opinion.
You know, if there's no God, there are no rights.
There's not only no right to abortion, there's no right to life.
There's not only no right to same-sex marriage, there's no right to natural marriage.
There are no trans rights, Christian rights, human rights.
There are no rights anywhere if there's no God.
Everything's a matter of opinion.
This is why, of course, our country began with, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created and endowed by their government.
No, endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.
Among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
So, I always ask people, what's your moral standard by saying that you have a trans right, or a right to kill an unborn child, or a right to do whatever you want to do sexually?
Where does that come from?
Where do you think that comes from?
And they don't have an answer, because there isn't an answer.
Or they'll go down the road you mentioned, which is a group.
Is that the one that you get quite often?
Yeah, well, the group decides.
The problem is when they run into that, then, as you said, if Oklahoma decides abortion's wrong, they're going to say, no, it's a right!
No, you can't have it both ways.
Either human beings decide or they don't.
Hey, if the Nazis had won World War II and convinced everybody that killing Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, and Jehovah's Witnesses was morally right, would that make it morally right?
No.
There's a standard beyond human opinion that we're all appealing to.
The question is, do you have that standard in your worldview, or are you just the moral arbiter of the universe?
And sometimes they will say, Frank, but who's God and what standard?
Is it Islamic, Christian?
How do you navigate that objection, which I'm sure you receive quite often.
Yeah, well, first of all, you don't need to know whether it's the Christian God or the Muslim God from natural law.
Which is what Jefferson's appealing to, that there has to be a God out there whose nature is the moral standard.
Now, according to Muslim theology, Allah is not the moral standard.
Allah is arbitrary.
Whatever Allah does is good.
So Allah could wake up tomorrow and say rape is good, and you'd obey that.
Just it's based on authority.
If you look at Muslim theology, it can't be the ultimate moral standard.
The ultimate moral standard has to be an unchanging source of morality, whose nature is good, and that meets with the Jewish God, and obviously also the Christian God, because they're the same.
But I think you can show through evidence, and that's why we go to college campuses and we present evidence that truth exists, God exists, miracles are possible, and Jesus rose from the dead.
Look, if Jesus rose from the dead, the Christian God is the true God.
No, that is the whole ballgame.
We know creation happened, because that's self-evident.
Genesis 1-1 and the resurrection are the only two miracles you need to know.
That's right, exactly.
Not to say that other miracles didn't happen, but even if those other miracles didn't happen, that doesn't matter as much.
Is that correct?
What I say to people when we get to, are miracles possible?
Is, if you don't think miracles are possible, look around, you're living in one.
This universe is a miracle.
Our existence.
Right, our existence is a miracle.
And even atheists now, Charlie, as you know, are admitting the evidence for the first miracle.
They don't think it's God, but what else could it be?
If space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing, which is what the evidence shows... And something outside of it.
Yeah, it's got to be something outside of it.
They use quantum physics, have you heard that answer?
Oh yeah, that's Lawrence Krauss here at Arizona State.
How do I respond to that?
Can you explain the argument to our audience?
Lawrence Krauss, who used to teach here at Arizona State, said that nothing can produce something because nothing is actually something.
Nothing is a quantum vacuum.
When in his world, even atheists are poo-pooing his argument because a quantum vacuum is not nothing.
A quantum vacuum is still a sea of fluctuating energy, which would itself need to be created.
So even if a universe could come from a quantum vacuum, Where did the quantum vacuum come from?
You get back to an ultimate, spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent creator.
They then respond to me, but then who created God, right?
So it eventually gets back to this.
Well, then you ask the question, look, if space, time, and matter had a beginning, then the only thing that could have created that is something outside of space, time, and matter.
And if you're outside of time, do you have a beginning?
No, you didn't have a beginning, because you're eternal.
So, who made God is really a illegitimate question, because nobody made the unmade being.
There has to be an uncreated creator out there.
It's either the universe or something outside the universe, but all the evidence shows the universe had a beginning, so it must be something outside the universe that brought it into existence.
And by the way, even Aristotle understood there had to be an unmoved mover.
That's correct.
Now, he thought the universe was eternal, but he said, even if it is eternal, you need an unmoved mover to keep everything going in the direction it's going in.
So, you don't get rid of the need for God.
Even if the universe is eternal, you still need a God.
Frank Turk is with us, CrossExamine.org.
So much to discuss here, as you can see why I love this guy.
And he goes to college campuses.
He does a great job.
We're going to do one together in the spring.
We got to.
It'll be a blast.
It'll be great.
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So Frank, when you present a lot of the evidence to an average college student, is it persuasive, or is there a heart issue that's sometimes underlying?
Well, great question, because here's the question I ask anybody that gets to the microphone that expresses any hostility at all.
The question is, if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?
And Charlie, I've had atheists stand at that microphone in front of hundreds of people and say, No!
And I say, No?
How is it reasonable?
You wouldn't believe something that was true.
Well, it's not a matter of reason, Charlie.
It's not a matter of the head.
It's a matter of the heart.
They don't want it to be true.
They don't want there to be a God.
Why?
Because they want to be God over their own lives.
They're not on a truth quest, they're on a happiness quest, and they're just going to believe whatever they think is going to make them happy.
And the problem is, we can make ourselves happy over the short term, doing a lot of fun, but selfish and sinful things.
Yet over the long term, it's a disaster.
And anyone who's listening to us right now over 40 years old knows what I'm talking about.
Many of us have tried to live for ourselves, and we realize it doesn't work out.
If you live completely for yourself, you're gonna wind up divorced, alone, addicted, broken, and probably prematurely dead.
And what we find on campus is a cluster of people that worship self, I think, more than any other population of the country.
Is that probably true?
Yeah, it's me-ology, not theology.
That's what it is.
Where does that come from?
It comes from the human heart, that we're fallen, and we need a Savior.
Our heart is deceitful and corrupt, and it wants what it wants.
I have a fallen heart, you have a fallen heart, everyone listening to us has a fallen heart.
And we will suppress the truth to get our own way.
And the three big motivators, Charlie, the three big things that you and I and everyone listening have to protect ourselves against are an unhealthy desire for sex, money, or power.
Because if it goes beyond what it should go beyond, any one of us can sink ourselves.
Yeah, that's right.
Because sex, money, and power are good things.
In fact, they're so good, we'll often take shortcuts to get them.
Yes.
And that's why we sin.
In fact, my cold case homicide detective buddy... Yeah, he's great.
Jay Warner Wallace... I've been wanting to have him on the show for a while, but yeah.
Yeah, I'll connect you with him.
He says whenever he finds a murdered body, Charlie, he goes, I don't need to track down a thousand motivations for why this guy was murdered.
He said, I only need to find one or more of these three motivations.
There was either a sex issue, a money issue, or a power issue.
Those are the three things that can drive people to murder, and they're the same three things that can drive any of us to sin, to do what we ought not do, to get those good things.
So, so many young people, when they get to college, they want to have sexual freedom.
They want to do their own thing.
I get it!
I was there!
But in reality, it's a dead end long term.
So your presentations are probably then most helpful to someone that has an open heart to the gospel.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, but I've had many people—in fact, I just had a guy at our event the other night.
At our event the other night in Tucson, a guy came up to me.
After, and he said, I want to apologize to you.
I said, why?
He said, you were at the University of Kentucky eight years ago, and after the event, I asked you a number of questions during the event, and after the event you invited me to dinner.
So I don't remember this, but I took this guy to dinner, and he said that helped soften my heart to the point that I'm now a Christian.
Wow.
Good for you, Frank.
And you don't even remember it.
No, I don't.
I don't remember it.
That is such a good example that memory is not connected, because that's an argument that the left will use with abortion.
So you don't have the ability to form memories, you should be able to slaughter a child.
And it's just, I mean, if your whole memory got wiped out, that doesn't...
Null or void your moral contribution.
No, no, not at all.
But there's a lot of things I've done that I don't remember either that were evil, and that's why I need a savior.
No, that's right.
And that's where it all needs to point back to, is that we're broken by nature, but colleges, institutionally, they'll play into the depravity.
Of course.
They have an intellectual department, philosophical department, designed and configured towards that.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, they are there to actually put forth a moral position, even though they don't have a moral standard, an objective moral standard.
They're trying to say things like, if you're against a young person transitioning, you're immoral, Charlie.
If you're against a young person getting an abortion, you're immoral, Charlie.
If you're someone that supports, say, Donald Trump for president, because you think this nation should have borders, for example, you're immoral, Charlie.
Where are they getting this moral standard from?
Where are they getting it from, Charlie?
Show me the lit.
We'll start with the Ten Commandments.
That's what you and I live off of, right?
What is their Ten Commandments?
They don't have one.
Well, they steal from R. I wrote a book a number of years ago called Stealing from God, Why Atheists Need God to Make Their Case.
They have to steal a moral standard from God while claiming he doesn't exist.
In effect, they have to sit in God's lap to slap his face, right?
Because they have all these moral rights!
Abortion, trans, you know, You ought not colonialize people, whatever their standard is, right?
And they don't have a standard in their worldview.
They have all these moral precepts, but no way to justify them.
Yes.
So, Frank, then, the work you're doing on campus is generating a lot of fruit.
I'm sure politics comes up every so often.
And you were so eloquent and so good.
I was telling Mikey and Pastor Furrow in Tucson—I don't need to speak, Frank is just doing amazing—which is, how should Christians think about this election?
I think, like every election, Christians ought to vote biblically.
And you say, well, Jesus wasn't involved in politics.
And I say, au contraire.
Who did Jesus go after the most?
He went after the Pharisees.
And who were the Pharisees?
Some of them were on the Sanhedrin, the Jewish ruling council to whom Rome delegated day-to-day lawmaking authority.
In other words, Charlie, they were the politicians.
And Jesus went after these people.
In fact, in Matthew 23-23, this is easy to remember, Matthew 23-23, Jesus said this.
It's also Michael Jordan's number.
It is, yeah, there you go, guy from Chicago.
I'll never forget this.
And the Bears won yesterday, by the way.
Miracles do happen.
That miracles do happen, you're right.
Anyway, in Matthew 23-23, Jesus says to these politicians, he says, you've tithed your spices, mint, dill, and cumin, but you've neglected the more important matters of the law.
Justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
You should have practiced the former without neglecting the latter.
You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
What's he saying?
He's saying that you have done the minor things, tithed your spices, but you're neglecting justice, the bigger issues.
And we're doing the same thing in our country.
Charlie we're telling people what light bulbs they can and can't use but we won't say don't murder your children Kamala Harris wants to ban plastic straws, but she doesn't want to ban child mutilation She's neglecting the more important matters of the law Jesus was was scolding these politicians for doing that.
So when you go to vote, I think what you ought to do is vote on the more important matters of the law.
And look, I get it.
You might not like either candidate.
I get it.
OK, what you also need to remember is you're not voting for one person when you're voting for president.
You're voting for 5000 people to go to Washington and implement a platform.
That's right.
And which platform is going to be implemented?
I don't know.
Do we even have a Kamala Harris platform yet?
It finally is out.
It came out just yesterday, I heard.
It's full of abstractions.
There's no specifics.
There's no specifics.
We want people to be happier.
I'm half kidding, right?
But it's ridiculous.
There's nothing there.
Okay, so there's nothing there.
I remember in her Dana Bash interview, she was asked, what are you going to do on day one?
She said, help the middle class, and there was no specifics.
No, that's basically what her website is.
Okay, so you need to vote on policy, ladies and gentlemen.
What's the most important policies?
And in my view, the right to life is the right to all other rights.
If you don't have life, you don't have anything.
Now, Charlie, you and I have spoken, and I know you have reached out to people within the Republican Party.
We're not happy that the Republican Party has softened its view on the abortion issue.
and that's going to be something we're going to have to deal with moving forward.
However, and actually President Trump said in the first debate with Biden,
you know, you got to get elected. He's just like speaking off the top of his head.
Sounds like Trump.
Right. But you got to get elected. And he's right.
If a candidate were to say that I know that an unborn child is a human being and I am not for
any exceptions to abortion, even though that's the right moral position.
And we must be unwavering in saying that.
Yes, it is the right moral position.
And that's where your high role is.
Totally.
We're together on it, except of course for life of the mother, but life of the mother, the intent is not to kill the child, the intent is to save the mother.
And cesarean section should be given as the Yeah, exactly.
Which almost never is.
Yeah, you said that.
There's one exception where that won't work, and that's in a topic pregnancy.
Correct, that's right.
However, most of the time, cesarean can be tried.
That's right, that's right.
Anyway, but we don't want to get too deep.
Yeah, in any event, if a Christian votes for the Democrat, platform, what you're getting is abortion up to the moment of birth, and your tax dollars are paying for it.
And overturning the 14 states that have gotten rid of abortion.
Yes.
That's the critical part.
That is.
Trump will allow states to stay pro-life.
Kamala Harris will not.
That is correct.
Also, on the religious freedom issue.
Oh, it's not even close.
Go ahead, unpack that, Charlie.
No, no, no, no, this is—yeah, but I mean, from judges, from mandatory lockdowns, to
religious liberty, to religious consciousness.
For example, Kamala Harris's regime would force Christian schools to have boys in women's
locker rooms.
Not only that, when it comes to religious freedom, if they pass the Equality Act, which
is not equality at all, religious rights would take—would be subservient, would be overpowered
by any LGBTQ rights, which means women's— ...in sports.
Pastors and priests would have to do homosexual marriages.
And so Trump is against all of that.
Yes.
Let's just be clear.
Right.
And he's against men in women's sports.
That's what I should have said a minute ago.
No, no.
And it's in his platform.
And President Trump has also put great judges.
And let's not forget, he did give us the reversal of Roe versus Wade.
He did, yes.
That is worthy of our gratitude.
You know, Charlie, another thing that has come up with regard to this on the abortion issue.
If I were asked, if I was the candidate, and I was asked, would you sign a pro-life bill if it came across your desk?
I would say this.
I would say, if a pro-life bill came across my desk, that would mean the people wanted it.
And therefore, we had moved the country in the right direction.
But you and I both know that's not coming across my desk.
That's a great answer.
The better question would be for my opponent Kamala Harris, are you going to sign a ban
against abortions in the third trimester?
Which the American people do want.
Yeah, they do want a ban on that.
And she's going to say no, in fact I want the government to pay for those.
And by the way, everyone knows we're not going to get a constitutional amendment right now on the life issue.
You need two-thirds of the Congress and 37 states, Charlie.
We are not there, Frank.
No.
But we need to keep fighting.
We need to keep fighting.
And pastors and Christians need to fight.
It's our issue, not the Republican Party's issue.
It's our issue that we haven't been persuasive enough, we haven't talked about it enough, we haven't showed them what's going on in an abortion.
In fact, I challenge anybody who's pro-abortion out there, or pro-choice right now, I want you to go to caseforlife.com, caseforlife.com, and watch the one-minute video.
Scroll down, you'll see it.
It's a Vimeo video.
Can I interject?
Yeah.
I think you have a moral obligation to watch it.
You're right.
If you're pro-abortion.
Absolutely.
Just as if you were pro-slavery, you should have to watch the horror associated with your view.
Yes.
If you are pro-abortion, if you can stomach that one-minute video, then you can hold on to those views.
That's right.
If you can't, if you can't stomach that one-minute video, then there's something, I don't wanna say hypocritical, but that's probably the best word for it.
Yes, and I showed that video the other night at Calvary Chapel, Tucson.
And people were crying.
Yes, I warned them, you're gonna see an abortion in every trimester.
You did it in a very classy way.
Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
What an unbelievable start to 2024.
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And we're doing again this year what we did last year.
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Frank, I want to close with the most important topic, which is, so we have does truth exist, miracles exist, does God exist, can we trust the New Testament, and you've trained me on this, that it's easy to get caught up on Joan on the Whale, you know, parting the Red Sea, all of that stuff is important, but none of it really matters unless you can the resurrection, correct?
Yeah, and the greatest miracle in the Bible is not the resurrection.
The greatest miracle in the Bible is the first verse.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
That's right.
In Hebrew.
If that verse is true, ladies and gentlemen, every other verse is at least possible, and even atheists are admitting the data for it.
In fact, Stephen Hawking, who was the top physicist in the world, at least the most popular, until he died about six years ago, said, almost everyone now believes that the universe and time itself had a beginning at the Big Bang.
Now, he didn't have an explanation for this that was plausible, but if space-time and matter had a beginning, then whatever created space-time and matter must transcend space-time and matter, must be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, and intelligent, which I cover in the I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist presentation on our YouTube channel, so go see that.
YouTube is cross-examined.
If Genesis 1-1 is true, a resurrection is at least possible, Charlie.
So is Jonah, so is Noah, so is Paul.
All that is secondary.
Yes.
Meaning Jonah could be... I said this and someone got upset.
If Jonah is allegorical, that doesn't mean the resurrection is not true.
Of course!
And I don't believe Jonah is allegorical.
No, no, I think it's literal.
Yes.
Because Jesus said it was.
Of course.
Yeah.
I'm just saying, though, that let's get back to the resurrection.
That's right.
That is the core.
The resurrection is true because—look, who wrote this down, Charlie?
These were Jews who thought they were God's chosen people.
They had every motive to say the resurrection wasn't true.
Not every motive to say it was, and they went to their deaths not for just a claim, they went to their deaths for something they said they saw, the risen Jesus.
Which would get them killed, and did.
They had no motive to make up a new religion, because by saying Jesus had resurrected from the dead and saying he was God, first of all it's blasphemy to say you were God in that culture, And they didn't think one guy would rise from the dead in the middle of time.
They knew we'd all rise at the end.
But this was not on their radar, Charlie.
They did not think a guy could claim to be God and rise from the dead.
And yet here they are, claiming that.
It gets them beaten, tortured, and killed.
This is not a list of perks.
They're not going to make this up.
And then they go and die for it and spread it around the world.
Now, why would they do this if they're making it up?
Now, I like to say this, just to kind of wake people up.
I say to them, Christianity is not true, Charlie, because a series of documents that we put under one binding we call the Bible says it's true.
In fact, Christianity would be true if the Bible never existed.
And people go, well, how can that be?
Because, do you realize there were thousands of Christians before a line of the New Testament was ever written?
Yeah, why?
Because they didn't read about it in a book.
They saw the risen Jesus themselves.
In other words, Christianity did not begin with a book.
Christianity began with an event, the resurrection.
There would be no series of books we put under one binding we call the New Testament.
Unless Jesus rose from the dead, because Jews would never invent this.
This is not an invented story.
In fact, I like to say it this way.
The New Testament writers did not create the resurrection.
The resurrection created the New Testament writers, right?
You wouldn't have these documents written by Jews in the first century, who then would go die for it.
And by the way, it's not like Muslims who die for their faith now.
Muslims who die for their faith now haven't witnessed anything.
They just think it's true.
The New Testament writers were in a position to know whether it was true.
You see, many people will die for a lie they think is the truth.
Nobody will die for a lie they know is a lie.
And the New Testament writers were in a position to know whether it was a lie or not, and they went to their deaths anyway.
And then also, the story of Paul is perplexing.
Without the resurrection, there is no explanation for Paul.
And James, the half-brother of Jesus, He didn't think his own brother was God.
Thirty years later, he's dying as a martyr, as Josephus, the Jewish historian, tells us.
In India or something.
No, he's dying in Jerusalem.
Oh, is that right?
Yeah, yeah, Josephus tells us.
Thomas was in India.
Yeah, Thomas was India.
James, why is James dying for his brother's claim that he was God if he hadn't witnessed the resurrected Jesus?
He did witness the resurrected Jesus.
So we cover all this, and I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, and at the end of the day, we ask people, hey, this is true.
Why don't you believe it?
You don't want to believe it?
It's free!
Look, you're only going to get one of two things in the afterlife.
You're either going to get justice, or you're going to get grace.
I don't want justice, Charlie.
No.
You don't want justice.
Everybody out there listening shouldn't want justice.
We should want grace, that Jesus took our punishment on himself, and by trusting in him, you're not only forgiven, you're given his righteousness.
Frank, God bless you, man.
It's crossexamine.org, and how many campus stops do you have?
We have about nine this semester.
Good for you.
That's great.
And they go viral.
They do very well.
We hope so.
Yeah.
We'll be at Western Carolina University next week.
Check us out.
That's Monday the 18th.
And then a bunch in Louisiana the following week.
So go to crossexamine.org.
You'll see it there.
Frank Turek.
God bless you, man.
Thanks so much.
Thank you, the great Charlie Kirk.
Keep it up, brother.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us, as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.
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