Many states, including many Republican ones, have moved ahead with legalization and regulating marijuana. According to supporters, marijuana is mostly harmless and not addictive — but is that even true? What are the real affects of the drug, and what other drugs does marijuana open the door to? John Redman, head of the Community Alliance for Drug-Free Youth, punctures the myths around marijuana and the lies about legalization. Become a member at members.charliekirk.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Okay, everybody, on the Charlie Kirk Show, what do you know about marijuana?
What do you know about the marijuana referendum?
We have a conversation with an expert, John Redman.
I also talk about the WHO.
We talk about the World Health Organization and more.
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Okay, everybody, we have a great guest, lots to talk about.
John Redman from the Community Alliances for Drug-Free Youth, Connecting People and Changing Communities.
I think I got that right, didn't I?
Excellent.
Welcome to the program, John.
Please introduce yourself.
I'm John Redman.
I'm the Executive Director for CADFI, as you said.
I also work on global drug policy at the UN, at the CND.
I have consultative status there, and we work Internationally, as well as around the country.
I want to talk about the W.H.L., I want to talk about all that.
Sure.
Talk about the mission statement of your organization first, creating alliances for drug-free youth.
Yeah, so CAFI came out, grew out of the parent movement in the early 80s, and it was created as an advocacy group to deal with policy that supported youth.
You know, at the UN, they certainly have a number of treaties, but one of the treaties is the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
And what that convention says is that children have rights, they have human rights, they have the right not to be sold into slavery, pushed into prostitution, they have the right to an education, health care, all of that stuff.
And that's what Article 3 says.
They have these rights.
Children have rights.
And it's up to adults to ensure those rights, because they rarely have a voice and never have a vote.
But Article 33 says they have the right to grow up drug-free.
And when you create any policy that's for adults but against children, you put children first.
And that's what the UN espouses.
They should espouse.
Should.
Is drug usage going up with America's youth versus where it was 30 years ago?
Absolutely.
The biggest issue is potency.
In 1960, the potency of marijuana was 1% THC.
1% THC. By 1985, you're looking at about 5% THC. Today, what is THC for audience?
Tetrahydrocannabinol.
It's the active ingredient, the cannabinoid that gets you high.
So the potency goes up.
Now it's around, average is 17.
The high is probably around 32%.
But all that's blown away because the concentrates are at, just a few years ago they were at 60%.
The National Marijuana Initiative out of the high-intensity drug trafficking area just did a conference and they announced it was up to 99% THC content.
When you look at Dr. Daryl Inaba, he was the co-founder of the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic, who was against legalization.
He said, John, in 1985, Before that we didn't have addiction to marijuana.
By then, which was only five percent, four to five percent average, he said I had a hundred people a month come into my clinic addicted to marijuana.
But we're told that it's not chemically addictive.
Oh, it's absolutely chemically addictive, especially as that potency increases.
Is that a technical term?
Meaning, chemically addictive, they mean it doesn't create bonds like cocaine does, but meaning you still will form an addictive type of attachment to the substance.
Right.
Well, before that, you could stop and you wouldn't have those withdrawals.
Correct, that's what I'm getting at, yes.
You do now.
Because of the higher...
So, if and when marijuana is legalized, is the THC levels disclosed to the purchaser or the buyer, or is it regulated at all?
Well, that's a large question.
First of all, states have tried to regulate, but they really haven't.
There's more regulation in Ben and Jerry's ice cream than in any state regulation of marijuana.
Really?
Well, they don't have the purview.
Who regulates drugs?
Food and drugs?
That's the FDA.
That's a national regulation.
That the federal government puts on states.
Every state has some type of, for alcohol, they have a bureau.
They're all required to have a bureau of law enforcement and control to do nothing but alcohol control.
They don't have that for marijuana.
And marijuana is a drug of addiction.
Alcohol, tobacco, marijuana.
But it's not being treated the same because it's being introduced into states Through corporate greed, through the initiative process, like in Florida currently.
I want to get into that.
So, drug usage, let's just say for kids, 12 years old to 18 years old.
Right.
That's when I used to think when drug usage was experimented.
What is the average age of the introduction to drugs now?
The average age of onset for marijuana is 12 years of age.
Okay, so I'm about right.
Is that younger than it used to be?
It's not younger than it used to be, but it's increased more than it used to be.
So more people are using marijuana than they used to?
Yeah, the people who use marijuana the most are between the ages of 12 to 26, really 25, 26.
It really drops off after that.
Because people start to get into the world and have other issues.
I have to pick up dog poop every day.
So there you go.
So one of the mythologies that we were told is that with legalization, black markets would disappear.
Is that correct?
Absolutely not.
Look, we had prohibition of alcohol, right?
And they talk about the mafia and all of that during Prohibition.
When Prohibition ended, the mafia didn't end.
We still had the mafia well after.
Jimmy Hoffa in the 60s, the Teflon Don in the 80s.
It didn't go away.
And it's certainly not gone away with marijuana.
It's a huge myth.
So, like, for example, a 14-year-old at Scottsdale High School here, down the street, they're still getting marijuana.
Are they getting it passed down through somebody buying at a dispenser getting to them, or is there another black market that they're getting the marijuana from?
Both.
And the black market is still robust.
As a matter of fact, the Haida director, once it was passed in 2012 in Colorado, said, We're not going to be able to stop this.
We're going to have problems.
Before it was legal, we didn't have Mexican cartels in the United States.
We had drug trafficking organizations.
We had mules, but we didn't have cartels.
Drug trafficking organizations are family-oriented, so one drug trafficking organization doesn't go after the uncle of another.
Drug cartels, they don't care about that.
After it was passed, The Rocky Mountain HIDTA out of Denver was reporting drug
traffic, drug cartels in Colorado and now it's out of control. So it's
fair to say that with the legalization usage has gone up across the board. Right.
Look at California, the use rates in... Tell us the numbers.
Off the top of my head, the numbers in California for youth use has doubled out of the national average.
So for those who say it doesn't affect, it's not true.
And it's not just use rates.
Look at poison control in California.
When you look at, I think around 2010, you had 15 calls into the poison control for kids five years and younger.
In 2021, it was 798 just for five-year-olds.
20 it was 798 just for five-year-olds so this is because you've got gummy bears
laced with THC and and those kids are when parents go to the bathroom or
whatever and it's on the coffee table they're eating them They don't know the difference between a candy gummy bear and a pot gummy bear.
So we are told, though, that marijuana helps with anxiety, depression.
If that's the case in somebody who's using drugs, why are they more anxious and depressed than ever?
Because marijuana doesn't help with anxiety and depression.
No, of course not.
I know.
It actually creates anxiety, it creates depression.
As a matter of fact, we now have studies that show that marijuana increases early on stage psychosis and schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
You get marijuana at that high THC content, you've got some mental health issues.
Back to the really quick about the lacing.
So we were told that the lacing market would disappear when legalization occurred, but there's more lacing than ever.
Well, yes, there's lacing with fentanyl and other drugs.
Because we were told that legalization will at least make drug usage safe.
Yes, that hasn't happened because there's no real way to regulate.
As a matter of fact, they took all of that, the ability for law enforcement to deal with that issue.
It's not there.
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Just an interesting historical nugget to emphasize for a second here, which is you mentioned prohibition.
What led to prohibition and what happened during it?
What led to prohibition was the United States had a problem.
Germany was drinking beer.
France was drinking wine.
We were drinking full, 100-proof Kentucky corn-fed whiskey.
Yeah, you can thank the Appalachians for that.
The Scots.
Yeah, so this wasn't 9% alcohol.
This was 100-proof.
And we had an addiction problem, just like the potency problem in marijuana.
The same thing happened here.
We had higher and higher increases of potency.
By 1840, people were talking about abstinence.
P.T.
Barnum was one of those outspoken people, and so they were talking about prohibition.
You'd think it was only a few years before.
It was decades before.
And they were talking about it was supposed to eliminate spirits.
That didn't happen.
The temperance movement came in at the end and wanted the prohibition of not only spirits but also beer and wine.
And that took away an entire culture where men brought in their sons to introduce them to the community.
As men, politicians went to speak out to get votes and people mostly Cash their checks at bars, not at banks back then.
And all of that, that whole culture went away, and it was very difficult.
What happened during Prohibition?
Was there anything good that happened during Prohibition?
Yeah, people talk about, you know, well, it wasn't a success.
Well, it depends on how you look at it.
From a public health standpoint, it was an absolute success.
And also from some civil issues as well.
You know, you had child abandonment that went down to almost nothing.
You had divorce rates that went down.
You also had cirrhosis of the liver was almost nothing.
So you look at it from a public health point of view, it was an absolute success.
Whether it was popular or not, because of that cultural issue where it was just crossing the line, that was another issue.
So now, fast forward to today's time.
That's a very important topic.
We can talk about that.
Let's talk about the actual substance as it is, marijuana, which some people have, as you mentioned, a multi-decade-old view of what pot is, saying, oh, it makes a little high, not a big deal, might as well legalize it.
What other potential health negative outcomes are we seeing broadly because of the overusage of marijuana?
Well, first of all, in terms of the plant, we have to recognize that there are over 70 cannabinoids within the marijuana plant, like THC, like CBD, and there's others that we don't know about and what they do.
Certainly THC has been researched a lot, and CBD, but what do the others do?
And we are finding out, one of the issues with the World Health Organization, they were trying to take it off the The scheduling and put it into the same level as as vitamins and They were saying CBD is benign.
Well, it isn't it has a lot of problems in terms of sleep disorders upset stomach dizziness a number of issues but under the FDA in terms of the research of CBD and GW Pharmaceuticals has gone through the FDA to create a medication with the FDA's approval and one of the things that they found out within their clinical trials was there was 10% of their patients were getting toxicity levels within the liver.
If you're going to a doctor under a clinical situation, that's fine because you can run lab tests and find out and adjust, but you're not going to do that through marijuana as a commodity where you have CBD and in office water that they're selling out in the strip mall.
That's not happening.
There isn't a regulation to that, and there are side effects.
So what do you have to say to then the people who say, okay, let's legalize it and then create a Bureau of Marijuana Transparency like we do with liquor?
Would that solve the problem?
Well, you're going to have to do that through the federal government.
You're not going to do that through states because they don't have the research doctors, the lab technicians, the calibrations, the machinery.
None of that exists at a state level.
And you're going to have to deal with that through the United Nations, because we've signed a treaty with them.
So if that were to happen, then would it solve any of those issues, you think?
Well, what will happen?
The question then becomes, are we going to treat it like alcohol and tobacco as a commodity, or are we going to treat it like a medication?
That's the first conversation that we should have.
They say that states were going to treat it like a medication, and they haven't.
Not a single one has done that.
And so now you have these problems.
We have one of the most tightly regulated drug regulation systems in the world, and yet still we've had problems with that, which we're able to resolve, like the opioid crisis, the pill mills and stuff in Florida, but we're not even having those conversations on marijuana.
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Walk us through the ballot initiatives that we are seeing in these states.
Yeah, you know, I've been out of that for a while, about six years, but I was asked to go back because Florida was looking at it, and so they have Amendment 3.
I see the whole ballot initiative process is flawed.
It's problematic.
And it really doesn't get you you're voting on something that I think is crucial and critical and you're voting on
it from you know Bumper sticker marketing, that's the problem
In in Colorado, I'm not Colorado in Florida that got amendment three. It's four pages
How can you?
solve the problems through a constitutional amendment where the
Corporations that wrote it mostly one corporation is backing it that that pulls out every single
criminal and civil liability out of it Bars don't have that.
You know, if you over-serve someone and they go out and have an accident, that bartender in the bar has some liability to that.
Is that right?
In Florida, zero.
Their liability is gone.
Plus, in four pages, which is all the Amendment 3 is, So, how do you talk about the regulations?
How are you going to grow it?
When?
Where?
What pesticides can you use or not use?
The fertilizers?
How do you transport it?
A point of sale?
Hours?
Location?
Age restrictions?
And how do you deal with that and ensure that?
None of that is happening in that amendment, other than the fact that corporations get off on liability.
So, what company is pushing for this?
My understanding is that it's Trulief that's there.
They just announced, I believe, that they put in an additional $10 million.
They had put in $60 million, is the number that I heard last week.
I think their total was $66 million.
$60 million of it came from Trulief and they just put in another $10 million.
That's $70 million that they've put into that.
Why?
Because they care about the people?
Or because there's some corporate greed that they know that they're going to get it back?
And is it fair to say that their business model is they succeed when young people get addicted?
Sure.
If you take a look at the tobacco industry, their model was, and through the Master Settlement Agreement, which there was a whistleblower that found out the tobacco industry, they were absolutely targeting youth because the younger you can get somebody to use, the more likely they are to be addicted.
If you can get them to not use up until age 25, where the brain is fully formed, you have a 95% chance that they'll never be addicted because they'll never use.
So that's the model from the tobacco industry.
The model from the alcohol industry is, for example, there's eight times the liquor stores in minority communities, in African-American communities, and in white communities.
Why?
Because they know they don't have the $50,000 to get them to the Betty Ford Clinic.
so that they can get off of it.
So the alcohol industry has targeted minority communities.
And in Colorado, in Denver, the same thing has happened.
Denver Post put out a map where all the weed stores were.
States that have legalized, has crime gone up or down?
That's hard to tell because it's very difficult to connect marijuana usage to crime or anything
It's very difficult to do that.
Colorado tried to do that.
They couldn't connect the two, but crime went up.
They tried to connect it to marijuana and just weren't able to.
What does the society look like after there is legalization?
Well, it was funny.
I was asked to do a class.
There were a number of agents that came down, did certain classes while I was at the Haida.
I'm still there, but not in that capacity.
But they were, in Washington State and in Oregon, that they were pushing for that and also the And there was one person that was there that he had a grow there.
It was legal for him.
And a motorcycle gang came in and said, we're going to buy all your crop.
And he said, that's great.
He goes, but we're going to pay this amount.
He goes, that's not even a tenth of the value of it.
And he goes, well, it's ours.
He went up and turned himself in.
And they said, fine.
Tell us who.
What the issue is and he wouldn't do it.
So they had nothing to hold him on.
And so all of that.
So he became a target of that as well as people who've had farms up in the Green Triangle up in California.
People come in and say, hey, you know, we want to give you six figures to grow marijuana.
They're all in suits, but the people that come to grow is not.
And they're pushing people, people five generations in their farm, they're leaving.
It's changing the very nature of that.
And the farmers, you know, that have kids on there, they're coming to school laced with THC.
And one of the clinical child psychiatrists had to go to the school to come up with a system where they had to keep their winter parkas and their backpacks outside so that they didn't come into the classroom.
Changed the whole face of it.
So, you've been in this space for a while.
Just remind our audience your biography and why you're such an advocate for kids not getting addicted to drugs.
Yeah, I was in the entertainment business for 20 years and the more and more that I was moving up the ladder and producing, I wasn't with my family and I just answered an ad and it was for this coalition dealing with drug prevention and it was housed at the high-intensity drug trafficking area.
And they had a small part, 5% of what they did was in that HIDTA.
Each HIDTA, there are 32 HIDTAs in the country.
It's out of the Federal Government Office of National Drug Control Policy, a program out of that.
And they asked me to take over their program, so I did.
And then, you know, it started to expand.
The drug czar at the time came through and saw what we were doing and at the National Haida meeting he said, I want everyone to do what John's doing in San Diego.
So it just kind of expanded in that way.
And what were you doing in San Diego?
We were bringing in unlikely partners that normally law enforcement didn't bring in.
We were bringing in the African-American community, African-American bishops that had problems and having them sit down with law enforcement.
In a way that they had never talked before.
You know, medical doctors, schools, communities.
That's what the Safe and Drug-Free Schools and Communities Act was all about.
That Joe Biden signed, but I haven't seen any care about that since.
Out of his administration, I think that we need to get back to that coalition, that community work that we can bring people together and partner them with law enforcement and really make a difference.
You say here we have a profound responsibility to support sound drug policy that will explicitly protect our youth.
Sure.
Why is it that voters continually vote for these referendums?
Why is it so popular considering the carnage it's doing to our country?
Because I think there's a myth out there about marijuana that's a benign drug, that it's not addictive, that it's not harmful.
And that may be true in the 1960s.
That went away in the 80s, and today it's certainly not true.
And the facts about it I don't think are being put out very well and that's why I get on as many shows as possible to let people know this is the reality.
So why is it, is this also a failure of parenting too?
It seems parents are completely indifferent about their kids doing drugs.
You know, I certainly think that parents need to be more involved in their kids.
I have two girls, and I was very involved in their lives.
And there's always a time, usually around middle school, where they start to talk, and they want to push you away, but that's when you've got to be closer.
So, yeah, I think parents need to be more involved.
But also, you know, remember, they're at school eight hours a day, and then we get them four hours in the evening.
Well, unless you homeschool.
Unless you homeschool.
And if you don't, then, you know.
You should.
So it's, you know, they're out there, and we've got to take a look at all of those issues.
And we can't just blindly go down this road by dealing with crazy policies that turn into laws that then hurt the youth.
We're supposed to protect our youth.
We're the ones that have that.
It's incumbent upon us to do so.
In an ideal world, what laws would you like to see passed to help solve this?
I'd like to see the commodity part, treating marijuana as a commodity, pulled back to the beginning.
Whether that's possible or not, I think that's what it should do.
We'll continue to look at some pretty profound possibilities in terms of the FDA-regulated cannabis medications.
There's some real good things that are coming out in terms of neurological disorders and may go on to muscular dystrophy or multiple sclerosis.
Certainly Dravet syndrome, epilepsy in youth.
I'm very excited about that, but then handling it and turning it over to corporations that are actually sitting at the table creating the regulations and the policies once those policies are passed.
That doesn't happen in the alcohol industry or the tobacco industry.
It certainly happens now because we're not having those nuanced conversations.
Yeah, because we're legislating by bumper sticker.
Bumper stickers.
By majority wins.
And yet we're supposed to look at it through the rule of law.
What's the best for all?
That's not happening.
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So tell us about the WHO.
Well, you know, I was looking to scale down as I got older and some of the work that I was doing.
And I thought in 2017 I wasn't going to do the UN stuff anymore.
And someone called me up and said, John, in 2016 they're looking to do something.
I don't know what it is, but we need you to go there.
And I'm like, I'm not doing that anymore.
But I went ahead and then I saw, I heard some rumbles and then it came out that the UN was taking a look and trying to review marijuana as how it matched to the drug conventions.
And what I saw was pretty shocking.
And one of the things they said was they did six issues that they were putting out.
None of them were very good, but the fifth issue was to take CBD, move it out of the schedule, and put it on the shelves just like vitamins, but allow 2% THC as an adulterant in there.
And they said that that was because of the research that GW Pharmaceuticals was doing.
That's what they had allowed.
So I had known them for about a decade.
I called them up and I said, is this true?
And they went, absolutely not.
It is not true.
This is what it is.
Going through the FDA, we were at not 0.2, but 0.15.
So they rounded up.
But then the FDA said, you know, 0.15 is too much.
You're going to have to go to 0.10.
That was the active ingredient.
But as you know, in NyQuil, you're going to have an active ingredient that's diluted.
The active ingredient was diluted another tenfold.
So they were looking at 20 times the amount of THC to be allowed in a new treaty at the UN than what
the FDA said was safe.
And I said, we'll talk to them.
They did.
And nothing happened.
So I went and talked to them.
And they went, uh-huh, like blind stares and kept going.
And then they presented it.
And I presented the counterargument.
And it took two years.
And the more and more that came out, the more and more they held steadfastly.
It was the strangest thing.
Even Russia said, where are you getting this information from?
Where's your research on this?
And they said, well, you know, we'll get you that next time.
So next meeting came up.
I was there.
Russia said, where's the information?
They said, well, put it in writing.
They said, excuse me?
So they came to the next meeting, and they said, OK, we put it in writing.
They said, well, we already gave it to you in our original document, which wasn't there.
It was the most bizarre thing.
When it came down to it, of the six issues that they presented, Only one, which was a political win for them, passed.
Everything else was voted no.
And the one that I put forth, it was, you know, these were votes that were, you know, like five countries that swung the vote.
This one, 37 swung the vote that said no on 5.5.
Meaning, if you educate people, let them know what's really going on, they'll do the right thing.
Are you hopeful for any sort of reformation at the W.H.L.?
Because it seems like they've lost all credibility.
I'm not.
You know, I could never get a straight answer.
I even asked them, you know, you're using language that isn't even the treaty.
It's vague.
What about specifics?
And they just kind of blindly move forward.
In closing here, John, let's just recap the referendums that are up.
What states have the marijuana referendums?
Florida?
Florida.
I don't know the other ones currently because I was asked to take a look at the Florida one, and that's the one I know about.
But there's always ones that they're pushing.
Florida seems to be the worst because I mean it it takes away all liability puts
it in a constitute in the Florida Constitution that's very would be very
difficult to change anything that and it would be the most liberal marijuana law
in our country and no restrictions whatsoever none that I can see I would
Well, I mean, they have certain restrictions that are, you know, like three ounces, which is a bizarre amount.
That's more than any other state.
So, you know, and then you look at the states that have passed it.
You look at Oregon, you look at Washington.
Oregon, they went even further and legalized or decriminalized all drugs.
And within a few years, they had to rescind that.
Oregon is 50th in terms of treatment in the United States.
For what they did, they needed another 200 outpatient treatment facilities and almost 300 inpatient treatment facilities.
Another 30 recovery centers that they didn't have.
