The Secret History of Communist Revolutions ft. Jack Posobiec and Joshua Lisec
Enjoy Charlie and Jack Posobiec's conversation from The People's Convention, where they discuss Jack's new book, 'Unhumans,' alongside Joshua Lisec. They dive into the history of Communist revolutions, socialism and Marxism, the links between Communists and today's liberals, and other history you may not know, but should. Order 'Unhumans: The Secret History of Communist Revolutions' here: https://www.amazon.com/Unhumans-Secret-History-Communist-Revolutions/dp/1648210856 Buy my new book at https://www.amazon.com/Right-Wing-Revolution-Beat-Woke/dp/1735503797! Become a member at members.charliekirk.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Joining us now, Jack and Joshua Lisek, is that right?
And you know Jack Posobiec, author of On Humans!
The Secret History of Communist Revolutions and How to Crush Them.
Jack, I'll go to you first.
Tell us about the book.
Well, Charlie... Talk right into the mic.
As you know, we, on Human Events Daily, we were doing this over the Christmas break, we kind of take some time where we step back, we do a bunch of deep dive, there's not a lot of news going on, so we were doing deep dives into communism, my favorite subject.
And we wanted to talk about the history of communism because, look, there's so many books out there, there's so many programs about the philosophy, the ideology of communism, why communism doesn't work, etc, etc.
I didn't want to do a book like that.
I didn't want to talk about stuff like that.
I was interested in the history.
What happened in China?
What happened in Russia?
What happened in Spain?
What happened in France?
What happened in all these places around the world?
What are the stories?
Who are the people?
And we actually, Blake did a whole series of them with us when he did Chronicles of the Revolution.
He's around here somewhere.
And of course, he's always flittering around somewhere.
And what ended up happening, sort of happy accident, the same way they say that most great discoveries happen by accident, we actually discovered a system.
And a system by in which these groups of people, sometimes they call themselves communists, sometimes it's Jacobin, sometimes it's the Khmer Rouge, sometimes it's the CCP, sometimes the Bolsheviks, the Mensheviks, we all know the list.
But it's always the same system.
And so working with Joshua, we were able to actually itemize this system and figure out how it's been run in country after country, time and again, time after time, place after place, people after people.
But it's always the same way.
They destabilize, infiltrate, subvert, and take over countries.
But then, even more interestingly, because as this is a Steve Bannon book, he wrote the foreword to it, he said we need actions.
And the action is, what do we do about it?
And so the final chapter, so there's two final chapters actually.
Second to last chapter, January 6th, how we explained that was sort of an inverse Bastille revolution.
And then the final chapter, what is the system to combat, counter, and subvert it?
So, Joshua, your thoughts on the book.
Tell us more.
Yeah, so working with Jack, we realized that the challenge of historical nonfiction is relevance, urgency.
And most documentaries and books about communism, the left, are really focused on the past.
And communism is over post-USSR.
We're in the peaceful era.
There's no communism.
And if you ask an average person on the street about communism, they don't know a whole lot.
And it's like, well, that was like the Soviets.
Something about Stalin?
There was that one video game about Angola?
Maybe?
And that's about the end of it.
And there's no sense of urgency, immediacy.
And what we do in the book is that our hypothesis is that we're currently undergoing an irregular communist revolution in the United States that's been slow-walked through all institutions since the 1950s, 1960s.
And we look at characters who have been despised by By not just left-wing educators and entertainment, but even the center and even the right, like Joseph McCarthy, who was right about everything with his lists, and it wasn't revealed until the 90s that he was right.
And same with Francisco Franco, who was successful at defeating the communists, and that's why he is so reviled.
When it comes to Joseph McCarthy, tell the audience here a little bit about the Verona intercepts because there's so many people who think McCarthy is this boogeyman, he's this crazy figure, he was just going after people he didn't like, but then the Verona intercepts come out after the fall of the Soviet Union.
What did they find?
They found that Senator McCarthy had compiled these lists, and they were secret lists, and it was suspected Soviet spies, Soviet sympathizers who were active in the U.S.
Army, also possibly in Hollywood, and the accusation against Senator McCarthy was that, and there was a hearing in which a fellow senator talked him down, and he was immediately censured afterward, became an alcoholic, and then died a couple of years later.
The accusation against him was, Senator, have you no decency?
And that word decency has been used against other right-wing figures who have been effective.
Oh, there's no decency.
And so when the left takes power, oh, it's a return to decency.
It's a sort of word thinking that the left tends to use to try to persuade and try to manipulate the masses.
Just on that point, Jill Biden has that famous tweet, decency is on the ballot.
So it's the exact same words that we see again and again.
They're used to sort of trick the right into this sort of false sense of putting principle over power.
And so one of the things that we also do in the book, and I know you talk about this a lot as well, is, and certainly we talk about it on the show, is if you have all principle and no power, you're completely insane.
Now if you have all power and no principle, you're a tyrant.
But if you have principles without power, it's meaningless.
It's completely meaningless.
You must wield power.
You must seize power.
The left understands this.
The left understands that in order to enact their agenda, in order to enact what they want, they need to use power first.
This is what we explain and we talk about a Issuing a software update to the movement because there's so many... And Charlie, I know you see this every single day.
There's so many people who say, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't want to jump the process.
I don't want to get over my skis.
I don't want to go too far.
We can't issue those subpoenas.
We can't change that law that's on the books in Nebraska.
We can't do the things that they do to us.
Meanwhile, as we watch, Steve Bannon is being led off to the gulags who wrote the foreword to the book.
I think we have to do an afterword now, you know, talking about that.
Basically, I'll get his cellmate to write it.
And then Peter Navarro was there.
Donald Trump is being marched up to the gulags as well.
So when exactly is it that we have to stop being nice because they're already locking
us up?
They're throwing away the key.
And we're still sitting back saying, whoa, guys, this word, this title on humans might
be a little mean, might be a little nasty.
So let's talk about the Russian Revolution.
What led to the Russian Revolution that is similar to what we're living through right now?
There's aspects of it that are similar and aspects that are dissimilar.
Prior to the Russian Revolution, there was actually a period of real oppression.
There was a form of slavery in Russia, the serf system, where the peasantry could not own land functionally and they were effectively slaves.
And then they became somewhat like sharecroppers, similar to the American South, in the same period of the 1860s and afterwards.
In the United States, we haven't had any actual systemic oppression like that for a long, long time.
That's where it's dissimilar.
Where it's similar is Lenin, Vladimir Lenin, the leader of the Bolshevik movement, he was able to build a coalition of the fringes.
People who were rejects from society, ex-convicts, unemployed people, and he was able to promise them, going back to word thinking, his slogan was peace, land, bread.
And everyone who was in the underclass resonated with that, because they'd only known war of World War I, they'd known issues with famines because of bumbling planning from the czarist regime, and they've also known a time of land issue.
And so he was able to promise people what they wanted, and then he built himself a massive coalition and a mob, and he then unleashed them in the October Revolution of 1917 upon the... How many people were involved in that revolution?
Well, wasn't there a failed one previously, about a decade prior?
Yeah.
So, in 1909, you're talking about when he was in prison the first time.
Correct.
And he was sent to Germany.
Prisoned and exiled.
So, Lenin gets sent to... So, there's a failed uprising in 1909.
In Austria, Germany or something, right?
Or Switzerland or something, yeah.
Austria, Bavaria have a few.
So, there's all these communist uprisings going on throughout Europe.
That culminate in the Russian Revolution of 1917.
But because of their failures, so he gets sent out, as you say, to Vienna.
He then ends up in Germany.
It's actually kind of interesting because at this point in time, you've got Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, even Freud, and they're all living together in Vienna, right?
And like within, like, they all went to the same coffee shop, basically, you know, within the same neighborhood in Vienna.
It's like if you could just take one Moab and just let it go.
Yeah, Freud included.
And not to mention his nephew, Edward Bernays, who is the inventor of modern propaganda and modern marketing.
And so when we look at this situation, they've all been kicked out, they've all been exiled, and Trotsky, by the way, ends up all the way back in Canada.
So he's out in North America, that's how far they threw him out.
Later, as we know, ends up in Mexico as well.
Dies in Mexico City.
Dies in Mexico, assassinated with an ice pick by Stalin.
You see, there's always this interesting thing, Charlie, that once the communists take over, the first thing they start killing are the other communists that don't exactly support their way.
But how many people were involved in the 17th Revolution?
I mean, you've only got a couple of thousand people.
And how big was the country?
How big was the country?
Millions.
Twenty-five, fifty million.
I mean, this is Russia we're talking about.
The Russian Empire, Charlie.
I mean, you've got so many people.
So how are a couple thousand people able to take over?
That's a great question.
I see where you're getting at.
And I'll give my answer, and then I'll give it to Joshua.
Because people didn't respond.
Because people thought that it would blow over people.
They would say, oh, this is going too far, and they're being hypocrites, and the people will see it, and the people will eventually throw this off.
There was this point, Charlie, where the entire Bolshevik party was in like one building, and you had members of the White Army, which we get into.
Wouldn't even fire on the building.
They were already taking over, they were already slaughtering people, and they say, oh no, we don't want to, you know, we don't want to do something that's against our principles, so we're not going to do that.
One building, one building could have saved all of Russia, all of the people, no gulags, no Solzhenitsyn, none of it, no Red Terror, etc.
So I want to focus on Russia because it's the one I know best, but was there a fair amount of pride or hubris by the czars as this revolution was brewing?
Did they take it seriously?
Equal parts pride and fear.
First it was pride, and then there was the fear.
There's no way that these rabble-rousers are going to provide an actual threat.
And then they begin killing, and there's blood in the streets.
So walk me through the mechanisms of takeover.
What did the revolutionaries do?
They just started indiscriminate killing on the streets?
Or did they pick out wealthy people, landowners?
What did Lenin's shock troops do?
So what's interesting is that in the Russian Revolution, and in other revolutions, there is a pattern.
Prior to the revolution, there is operational preparation of the environment.
It's a military term to make it so that it's likely that the revolutionaries, when they attack, will be successful.
That's right.
And the first stage of OPE, operational preparation of the environment, is separation.
And this is where you find who believe themselves to be oppressed, and who are the oppressors.
So it starts off with the oppressed.
That's Lenin and the coalition of the fringes building.
And the bourgeoisie.
That's right.
And those are the landowners, those are the factory owners.
And then he would go from Soviet to Soviet.
And Soviet was kind of like their version of like a casual union member, the councils of workers and factories, the unemployed, the underemployed.
Those are the Soviets that he went around to, and rallying them up, and uniting them.
And again, it's not millions of people.
It's not even the vast majority of the country, or even a significant minority.
But he does the separation stage.
And then comes the messaging, where he gets everyone singing the same song, hearing the same message, repetition, repetition, repetition.
It's a form of almost mass formation hypnosis, is the term that we like to use, where everyone just begins to believe, peace, land, bread, peace, land, bread.
We have moral authority.
We're on the right side of history.
We hear that term a lot.
And then they begin to infiltrate.
This is where they look at key institutions, key choke points, that when they finally begin the revolution, stage one... So that was September of 17, yeah?
Yeah.
All of, prior to those, and a number of years going back after.
But was that, that's when it, that's when it sort of hit the... It really kicks off there.
And so the three groups that I think you're looking for, so obviously the aristocracy, and not just, not just the Romanovs, but also the lower, the lower houses, etc.
They get targeted, of course.
Number two, the religious orders.
Priests, nuns, and that's obviously, for anyone who knows anything about communism, that's one of the very first groups that gets completely liquidated.
Throughout Russia, China, Spain, France, even in the French Revolution, the religious orders all have to go because they cannot allow or permit any ideology other than those.
And third, and this is possibly most interesting and less well known, it's what they call the Kulaks.
And so the Kulaks, small landowners, I actually like to explain this to people by saying, this is like your small business owner today.
This is somebody who has got a small business, a local business, maybe you've got e-commerce, dropshipping, something like that, or just someone who maybe has a couple of houses and they do Airbnb, or they've got a house down the shore, a vacation home that they rent out.
So when you look at what they're doing to landowners and landlords today in the United States, particularly New York City, I mean, this is a very deep-seated testament of communism by going after the landowners.
And so those people are the ones who are actually targeted, in some cases, even more than the people who... So if you're an aristocrat who sides with the revolution, and of course we have plenty of those, those people kind of, they go for them last.
They do eventually come for them, but they come last.
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So, at what point did the government then switch over?
What did that look like?
They just, they entered the physical apparatus of the Royal House to just blood start to get spilled?
Mass marches in the streets.
A couple thousand then all multiplied into tens of thousands.
And then, we'll use, they use strikes.
So they use general strikes and one of the biggest general strikes actually that they use to start the Russian Revolution is actually International Women's Day.
So International Women's Day was actually... Did it exist at the time?
They created it.
Was created by the communists to get all the women out of the workforce and say we're doing this for the women and then the men of course need to come to support their women.
And so because nobody showed up to work, this was how they threw sawdust in the gears of what they saw as the Russian Empire, they saw as the, you know, the oppressor class.
So they run out into the streets, then basically perform what we saw throughout 2020 here.
Nobody's working, nothing's going on.
They're calling for the head of the czar.
And keep in mind, a czar had been executed two czars before.
Not executed, assassinated two years before.
Two years?
Or two czars before?
Two czars before.
By a grenade by one of these anarchists.
So they've already known that it's kind of on its last legs.
So at that point, that's when the Tsar decides, alright, the way to end it all, we've got people in the streets, everybody's freaking out, I'm going to abdicate.
And so he abdicates, Tsar Nicholas II, with his family, says, if I lay down my crown, if I leave with my family, then all of Russia will be safe, and I will give in, and I will surrender to the mob.
Doesn't call up the military doesn't call up. You know the Imperial Royal Guard of Russia the Romanovs
No, no, no, no doesn't do any of this says I'm gonna give up the crown and hopefully the mob will accept that and
then They'll all go away. What do you think happened next
Charlie? I bet I could guess well what ends up happening next?
So there's a provisional government that goes in and this is why this is where you have the difference between the
February and the October revolutions that I know you're just mentioning
So there's this provisional government that's set up for like six months, and they say, they're talking about, oh, we're going to be a republic, and we're going to be a democracy, and keep in mind that World War I is still raging at this point.
And we didn't even talk about the fact that it was Germany that brought Lenin and Trotsky back to Russia, with a little bit of help from some people even in North America, as I know you know.
Yeah, the American government shepherded Trotsky all over the place.
He was in Canada for quite a while, too.
He was in Canada, and then he ends up in Switzerland.
He was in Prince Edward Island or something.
Prince Edward Island, off of Newfoundland, and then gets sent back.
during World War I. Super sus. And then because they know he's subversive. The OSS, I don't
know if they existed back then. No, the OSS wasn't, that was World War II. And then so
the question is, if Russia is our ally, why is it that we were helping? Because it was
the Germans who wanted to knock Russia out because Russia wasn't doing very well against
Germany on the Eastern Front, but at the same time, you've still got these massive waves
So Lenin becomes the new leader.
Right.
So Lenin decides the provisional government isn't meeting his needs, and so Lenin just brings in the Bolsheviks.
The Bolsheviks are only one faction in that provisional government.
So who are the Mensheviks?
the Mensheviks were just another one. That's kind of like your DSA, if you will.
The Democrats.
Yeah, the Democrats.
But they fought, didn't they?
So they, well, they ended up working together at first. So you have the social reformers,
you have the Democrat socialists, the social progressives, the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks.
Menshevik Bolshevik means small, Bolshevik means big, by the way, so
it's like the Menshevik, Bolshevik is like the large, meaning the
majority. Of course, as we just said, it wasn't actually the majority.
It never did represent the majority, but they claimed to.
We represent the people. We are the 99%.
You've heard these phrases over and over. It goes way back to the beginning.
And so the Bolsheviks essentially established with that November Revolution, this is...
This is the big one, which, and you know, it's funny because the November Revolution
actually takes place in October because this is how far behind Russia was.
They were still on the Julian calendar.
And so that's when they get it rise up and start slaughtering all the Mensheviks, everybody
else.
And then the blood really started to spill.
And then Lenin becomes like pseudo dictator.
Is that right?
100%.
So Lenin stays in power for what, six or seven years.
He's there until he dies.
Now, there's this famous picture in St.
Petersburg where Stalin, Trotsky, and Lenin are all in that picture.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Have you seen that picture?
Who is Stalin in all of this?
So Stalin is a functionary for Lenin.
Stalin is one of the... He was a backseat driver though, wasn't he?
He was like a backseat driver.
He was a thug.
He was a hired thug.
And so what's interesting is that we find throughout the book that most of the guys who are involved in these communist revolutions don't actually have a proletarian background at all.
But Stalin is actually kind of a He kind of doesn't meet the grain in that because he does have a very impoverished background, but he has the background of a criminal.
He comes up in Georgia.
He went to seminary school in Georgia.
He goes to seminary, but then leaves, gets involved in petty crime, and then sort of falls in with, you know, criminals and communists were kind of the same thing as he was coming up.
Because it was all about, again, through that coalition of the fringes.
So he was in and out of jail.
He eventually gets recruited by a communist cell.
And because he's one of the most brutal, violent enforcers of communism, basically, if they needed someone to do their dirty work, you called up Joe.
And he was the one who came up all the way to the top.
But they never... Lenin and Trotsky never viewed him as somebody who could be a successor to them.
They wanted him to just be sort of like the brute thug.
So let's just go back a second.
I'm going to connect it till today.
So in the events that led to that well-described, thank you, Russian Revolution event, the czars were oppressing the people by not allowing land ownership.
So our current government is not allowing land ownership.
Do you think a revolution is coming?
We hypothesize that a communist revolution has been slow walked through all of our institutions since the 1950s, 1960s, with that operational preparation of the environment.
The messaging, the key institutions and choke points being possessed by far leftists, people who despise and hate everything about Western civilization.
The United States of America, we've had 1776 replaced by 1619.
And there's a new civic religion now that everyone has to pledge allegiance to, or your career is threatened.
And so we further suggest that there are a series of micro-revolutions, micro-communist revolutions, you might call them, that are being launched at particular figures whose platform, whose influence, and whose even hard power is a threat.
to the modern communist regime, or as we like to call them, the unhumans,
because what they do is they unhuman their victims.
They deprive them of life, liberty, property, always in reverse order.
First they take their stuff, then they take their civic rights,
and then they take their lives.
And if they can't murder them, they'll imprison them, they can't imprison them,
then they will isolate them so that they're effectively off the table.
Let me, to directly answer your question, economic instability always leads
to political instability.
That's exactly right.
And we're living through the economic war.
And we saw this at the end of the Russian Empire.
We saw it at the end of pretty much every empire throughout history.
We even saw it at the end of the Roman Republic.
This is how the Roman Republic fell.
Well, no, you get really bad stuff when that happens.
So let me challenge the question a little bit.
So you guys say there's been a 70 year communist takeover of our institutions.
It feels more like an oligarchy takeover than actual communist takeover.
Are these Marxists or are these people that want to be part of a ruling class?
Well, so... And they can be one and the same, but I break Marxists into two buckets.
Those that are like legitimate believers, which are very, very hard to find, right?
That really believe in egalitarianism.
The rank and file can be that way.
Or there is the ruling class communists that use it as a means to the end to control us.
We have to show them the opening quote of the book.
I'll have to look at it.
There's a couple openings, but my favorite one is, it's after the foreword, the opening of the introduction right here.
Petty resentment and cruelty.
Communism is when ugly, deformed freaks make it illegal to be normal, then rob and or kill all successful people out of petty resentment and cruelty.
The ideology is all just window dressing.
That's what I'm saying?
Mystery Grove.
So my question is that, exactly right.
The way to sum it up is don't listen to what they say, look at what they do.
Yeah, but what they do is not actually, some of it is communist, but it really is not.
Correct.
It's far more, you could say fascist, I hate that term, but it's far more about like permanent oligarchic control
of a civilization.
Well, Charlie, it's revenge.
It's the politics of revenge.
All leftist politics are rooted in revenge.
Sorry to interrupt, but if it was communists, then they'd break up Google tomorrow.
Right.
But instead, Google's more powerful than ever before.
But this is our whole thesis.
This is our whole thesis, that even the way we talk about communism, if you're talking about equality and justice, you're talking within their frame.
A hundred percent.
We're arguing that they don't actually believe the communists are not actually communists.
Anything I can do to destroy you, to tear you down, to kill you, to crush you, it's nihilism.
That's all it is.
So I totally agree with that.
I have a book that's also coming out this week, Right-Wing Revolution, which it actually could be like the prequel or sequel, which I totally agree because I think a revolution is coming and I want it to be a right-wing one, not a left-wing revolution.
And when I mean revolution, I think all the institutions are about to be Well, so we talk about that in this as well.
It's coming.
You can feel it in the air.
There's something that's about to bounce.
I guess what I would say, though, the way I would frame it is that's a counter-revolution.
We think it's a correction.
Correct.
It's a re-centering.
But it does have revolutionary spirit.
Precisely.
And so what we see in each of these case studies, and that's what it is, it's case studies, we're not doing the, you know, if you want an entry point, you're into the history, you want to learn something, but you don't want to read one of those like 7,000 page tomes, get this, it's a great read, it breaks it down into a system.
In each of these times, we do find counter-revolutionaries, whether in Russia, with Pyotr Wrangel, in Spain with General Franco, who was ultimately successful against the Communists, which is why they hate him and hate his guts to this day so much that they dug him up and reburied him somewhere else that he didn't want to be.
In China, you see it with Chiang Kai-shek, who was completely sold out by Truman, FDR, and George Marshall, which we totally get into in the book and actually tell the truth about Yalta.
Okay, let's talk about Franco.
Who was Franco, and why is he hated so much?
and then in France of course with Napoleon. So the, okay let's talk about
Franco. Who was Franco and why is he hated so much? Joshua first. Francisco
Franco was a general in the Spanish Army prior to and during the Spanish Civil
War of the early mid late 1930s that that period.
And he had previously been responsible for putting down worker strikes that were rolled out by anarcho-communists, the idea being, we can create, we can spark a revolution, some of what happened in Russia. And of
course Soviets had been quietly agitating inside of Spain.
Some of the communist leaders of Spain had been hiding in Paris for a little while, getting education, materials,
training, resources, funding from the Soviet Union, from the common term. What year was this?
This is late 20s, early 30s, this whole period.
So it's the, this is the interwar period.
It's sort of like the prelude to World War II.
And so what happens is following the presidential election 1933-34, oh, that's an interesting
year for other reasons, what happens is socialists get in charge.
And the socialists allow their more radical friends who call themselves anarchists, who
call themselves communists, some are devotees of Stalin, some of them are philosophical
followers of Trotsky, you have the center left all the way to the far left now have
power.
And what happens is the anarcho-communists form militias, and they begin doing what the
They start robbing and killing.
They start with landowners, small business owners, priests, nuns, lay workers of the Catholic Church, and they begin mass slaughtering, taking their stuff, killing them.
Horrific crimes against humanity during this period.
And the socialist government allows it, endorses it.
And then Francisco Franco, who was not in the country at the time, he's away because of all the various shenanigans in northern Africa during that period.
He decides, no, this isn't going to work.
And what we say is that Franco, similar to George Washington, and we liken these two figures, both of them had the father's heart for their country.
And a dad's got to do what a dad's got to do.
And the quote that we have as the refrain in the book is what Franco said in English, which is, wherever I am there will be no communism.
And he gathered his generals, his mates, they all united in mind in his speech prior to the, we call it, a military uprising against tyranny.
Anarcho-tyranny.
Notice the word choice in the history books.
It's considered a military coup and fascist dictatorship.
And so that's the frame that has been set by the leftists who have infiltrated education, entertainment, so on and so forth.
And so you look up Franco, you immediately start seeing Nazi paraphernalia, that sort of stuff.
And so it's immediately, he's immediately discredited before you even learn anything about him.
So Charlie, think about that for what he just said for a second.
If Washington had lost, let's say Washington loses, the revolution goes down, we would have been taught that George Washington led a military coup against his government, that he was a rebel, and he was put down, and that'd be the end of it.
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So, what is it with helicopters?
Or is that Pinochet?
That's Pinochet.
Allegedly.
Pinochet's up there in Who They Hate.
Oh yeah.
Because he also won.
I don't know Franco at all.
I know very little about the Spanish Civil War, except for whom the bell tolls.
And Ernest Hemingway is all I know.
Who fought for the communists.
What?
No, totally, of course.
I know very... Well, you know Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Yeah, and then he became less of a communist afterwards.
Because... He was like, these people only hate the rich, they don't care about the poor.
So George Orwell gets... The way to read Orwell, once we actually learn Spanish Civil War, is... We all read Animal Farm, like, when we're young.
Then maybe high school, we get to 1984.
If you have a good high school.
Or if you're going to Turning Point Academy.
Which is a... It is a great book.
It is legitimately a masterpiece.
Is it in Turning Point Academy?
We're going to fix that.
There's a sex scene.
I hate editing books, but it is rather graphic.
I have a side story.
A parent got really mad.
We recommended it once.
You tried to get it in there.
If you can get out that one sex scene, it's a great book.
I know what you're talking about.
And it's completely irrelevant to the plot of the book.
No, meaning if you just, if you, you could water that down.
You could water it down.
As they had romantic relations move on.
Right, right, right.
They spent the night together.
Fine.
But then the last book, though, Homage to Catalonia, was actually the first book that he wrote which enabled the other books to be written.
And this was a work of nonfiction because he's fighting over there with the, they called him the Republicans, but this is actually the side of the Socialist Communists, He gets shot in the neck, so Orwell almost dies in the Spanish Civil War, and he's up in the hospital, and when he's in the hospital he's reading newspapers.
And he's reading the newspapers, but they're all from the communist side, reading about these battles and all the things that are going on, and he goes, wait a minute.
This battle never took place.
That's not what happened at all.
This is all lies.
And then he's reading the newspapers back from London because he's British.
He said, wait a minute, you guys are just copying the crap that came out of the Spanish lies.
And then this is kind of what in what we would say red pills him to the lies about the media.
And then that enables Animal Farm and 1984 later to be written.
So, let's be historically honest.
Is there anything Franco did that the audience should be aware of that wasn't great?
Look, Charlie, Franco was fighting a war.
And he fought a civil war the same way that Sherman fought a civil war.
It was brutal.
He marched to the sea?
There were multiple marches to the sea.
And he was ultimately successful?
And he was ultimately successful.
So explain to me why Spain is so communist-socialist now.
What happened?
Yeah, so Franco, who is famously, when you really look into it, he's not really ideological at all.
He actually kind of hated politics.
He just wanted things to be run well, and he wanted to restore the king.
Which is incredibly political.
Which is very political.
But yeah, he hated the parties, he hated all politics.
He just wanted his church, and he wanted the king on the throne, and he wanted Spain to be the way that it was, and he did what it took to get there at the end.
He didn't care for anyone to be on the right or the left.
He just didn't care.
And, but when he left, when he died, he, so he didn't want to have a, you know, hereditary dictatorship or anything like that, so he said, I'm gonna leave the decision of what happens next to the king, to King Alfonso.
And it goes to King Alfonso, and this is King Alfonso II now because King Alfonso I has passed on, and King Alfonso II says, we're going to try the Republic thing again.
And they go to the Republic thing again, Spain votes for the left, and they've continued to vote for the left ever since.
Until quite recently.
Spain?
It's a little blip.
There's some signs of life, Charlie.
Some signs of life.
So the other revolutions you guys cover... But think of it, though.
Think of it.
I'll put it this way.
When Franco was in power, and this isn't me being historical accuracy, right?
economic powerhouse, total economic domination in Western Europe.
Number two, protects Spain from World War II.
Doesn't get involved, doesn't go in with Hitler, doesn't go in with the Allies either,
says we're going to stay out of this slaughter and this bloodletting and incest.
Because when he handed it over and the left got back in and they play to the romanticism
and they play to the emotions and they play to the passions.
These are the Spaniards we're talking about after all.
Spain is a sad country.
And you look at how Spain has completely spiraled down since the days of the 1970s.
Yeah, it's sad.
I've been to Spain multiple times, and it's a sad country now.
It's beautiful.
Of course it is.
The food is great.
It's basically the entire country is a museum.
All they do is tourism now.
Exactly.
They make very little products themselves.
All their entrepreneurial capacity is gone.
And everything they had was from when they had the empire, which was a Catholic monarchy, which by the way also is responsible for 1492, not just clearing out the Reconquista, so restoring their country from foreign occupation.
Sounds like Britain.
Sounds like Britain.
So, other revolutions.
sending over Christopher Columbus to discover America. So Spain goes from
being this massive world-changing, history-changing power to a husk of its
former self on the left. Sounds like Britain. Precisely. So other revolution.
Interesting question about who won World War II, isn't it?
So who did win World War II?
Stalin. Stalin.
Joseph Stalin.
Communism.
Stalin gets out of World War II.
And the Cold War.
Precisely.
So Stalin wins the Cold War by turning us into a gay version of the Soviet Union.
But Stalin comes out of World War II.
Think about this.
It's a whole book of reframes.
We're not presenting anything new that you haven't heard, but we're reframing it.
That's a Scott Adams term.
It is.
Well, Joshua was the editor of Scott Adams.
Are you serious?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a great book.
He worked on the book.
Oh, is that right?
Yeah.
I love the book.
I love it too.
So the reframe is, there's reframes in here.
So the reframe on World War II is that, think about it, from Berlin to Beijing is a communist empire at the end of World War II, and then they get North Korea to boot afterwards.
And so when you look at it, Britain loses the empire.
The United States, yes, gained some economic dominance, but we don't really, we sort of inherit a lot of stuff from the British Empire, but it's through their destruction.
But it's Stalin who gains all of Eastern Europe, completely sold out.
Think about it, Charlie.
World War II started because Hitler invaded Poland.
And so if World War II is about the liberation of Poland, why did we give it to Stalin at the end of the war?
Interesting question.
See, I love Churchill, but it is the greatest criticism of Winston Churchill.
He tried.
Again, I love Churchill, but the greatest criticism is he made a big stink of, we have to fight the Nazis over Poland, and then he hands Poland to the Communists.
Right.
I will say though, it is more Roosevelt.
So when we get into the book, when we get into Tehran and Yalta, and actually Tehran is where a lot of these decisions were made, and Yalta was kind of like rubber stamping it.
It's a lot more Roosevelt who's going along with this and he and he's because Roosevelt is he's like catatonic by the time of Yalta.
His just mind is like a similar president that we might know and he's giving Stalin everything he wants.
He's totally surrounded by Soviet spies and agents and Alger Hiss and all the rest of them doing these negotiations.
And he just wants the United Nations.
And so he's going to Stalin, and whatever you want, whatever you want, whatever you want, I just want the United Nations.
And Churchill is the one who's sort of saying, realizing that he's getting squeezed out, and he tries to hold this wholly separate meeting with Stalin up in Moscow, and that Stalin kind of glad hands him and yeses him to death, and then just throws it all into the wind.
So the book is on humans.
You guys, we've talked about, we don't have to talk about China, because we would spend another hour on that, but the Chinese Revolution is super interesting.
It's different in some ways.
But you're saying the contention of the modern application of the book is that there's been a slow-moving, top-down, bottom-up revolution institutionally for the last 50 years in this country?
Yes, is that right?
Yes.
50, 60 years?
But that's categorically different than the Russian Revolution, which was like in the streets, storm.
Has there been any other parallel of which the communists have been so patient, so deliberate, like they have in America?
Because it seems like every other country is shock and awe, storm the streets, take over the government.
The way we talk about this is, so warfare has changed over the years, and drawing from my background in Navy Intelligence, we know that we don't do three-generation warfare anymore, or second-generation warfare where it's like the Civil War and we're going and lining up and we're fighting in the streets.
There's asymmetric warfare, fourth generation warfare, and then there's fifth generation warfare, which is a combination of asymmetric warfare, social media, and occasionally kinetic action.
So in the same way that warfare has advanced, we would expect and do see that revolutionary tactics have also advanced.
And this is why, and Joshua was speaking to it earlier, we kind of call this an irregular revolution is what we're in.
This is our like big brain idea that we've came up with.
So this is why like you can walk down the street and things seem kind of normal for the most part and you
can sort of see people going to work.
Outside of the drug addict and the guy defecating in the park and the...
But then you start noticing...
And the drag queen in front of an eight-year-old.
Everything's totally normal.
And then you start... Well, you don't see a kinetic violent revolution is what I'm saying.
But what we argue is those aspects that you're just talking about, in addition to,
look, we're right here in the Detroit Huntington Center.
We've got massive pride flags outside.
We've got massive illegal immigration just going in across the northern border right here, by the way.
And we argue that those are all facets of this irregular revolution.
So it's a low-level destabilization, a sort of gray zone warfare, if you will, the same way that the Chinese are using hybrid warfare against us.
So they're slowly destabilizing, but rapidly and more increasingly, They are ramping it up because they know that this counter-revolution, that's your book, is coming up to potentially defeat them.
Yeah, and we're here to talk about your book, but that's right.
Again, they could be one, two partners.
So I want to emphasize two more things.
We have about 10 minutes remaining.
How to crush them.
Oh, yeah.
Let's go, Josh.
But I'm not interested on how Russia could have crushed their revolution.
How do you crush an institutional, slow-moving, 50-year revolution?
How do you do that?
It looks different at every stage of society and every, we call it fractal level or every zoom level.
So there's the individuals and there's families.
And most of the people who are reading this book are soccer moms and Little League dads, dads who listen to your podcast and the occasional war room on Rumble and they're President Trump supporters and voters.
They do not necessarily have institutional power.
So what can individuals do?
What can families do?
What can communities do?
What can local elected leaders do?
School boards to counties?
What about state?
What about federal?
And so we lay out in Chapter 13, this is the plan of action, the sort of counter-revolutionary strategy and tactics.
And the key reframe that we point out is that in a gray zone warfare context, Specifically, the revolutionary war that we're currently experiencing, there are these micro-revolutions that are intended to take out a specific person.
Peter Navarro, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump himself, and other figures.
Or institutions like the NRA.
Yes, that's right.
And it's not all gun owners, like it might have been in the past.
It's one organization.
It's not all Republicans or the Republican Party.
It's those who are the most influential, who are the most powerful.
If you can alienate them, That prevents there from being an overwhelming show of force, because it's grazed on this plausible deniability.
And they use this through this mass formation hypnosis.
Nobody is above the law.
Well, where there's smoke, there's fire.
Look at all those felony indictments.
Well, there's got to be something there.
And so the average person, the average voter, even many Republicans, kind of shrug and say, well, okay, maybe there really is something there, unfortunately.
And so What individuals can do is they can prepare themselves for a micro-revolution to come against them.
Okay, what are the threats?
Well, there's de-banking, there's de-platforming, and there's even destroying your reputation and your ability to take care of yourself and your family.
So what is it that you can do to protect yourself, your family, your community?
Who can you support?
And then we go all the way up to the great men of history that we need, people with a father's heart like Washington, like Franco, even like Pinochet, another character who's hated.
What can they do?
And we lay out some specifics.
Those who have money, those who have power, what specifically can they do to engage in reciprocal action?
Reciprocity being the key.
Not being reactionary, but being reciprocal against those who are using tactics like lawfare.
Joshua, tell Charlie a little bit about what we lay out.
So there's, Charlie, something that's been so bandied about on our side.
They say we can't do eye for an eye.
We can't do eye for an eye because that makes the whole world blind.
Joshua, what is the iron law of reciprocity?
So civilization was first created because of a system of law and order under the code of Hammurabi, the Babylonian emperor, which was an eye for an eye, effectively.
And we reframe that famous line, oh, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
So let's just be nice and point out their hypocrisy and say, well, what if they did worse to us?
You see this sort of thing.
What if the roles were reversed?
Is the usual message that we hear.
But in reality, this is what our species figured out 4,000 plus years ago.
An eye-for-an-eye keeps would-be eye-gougers from poking at people's eyes because they fear what would happen to them.
So I have to defend the eye-for-the-eye thing.
It's one of the great moral advancements in the Torah, the Bible, which it says very clearly an eye-for-an-eye is the justice that is laid out in the book of Exodus.
So you think about it, it's actually a statement of human equality.
That a rich person's eye is not more important than your eye.
Well, so, and prior to this, there was no conception of a rule of law.
The idea that there should be a rule is what would, because prior to that, you just had
tribal violence.
And so someone from that tribe has done something to me, so we respond by crossing tribes.
Or they would go an eye for a head.
An eye for, well, that's what I'm saying, though.
They would cut off your head.
I'm going to crush that tribe.
I'm going to kill them.
I'm going to wipe them out.
In Leviticus 19, it says, in the administration of justice, you shall not favor a rich person or a poor person, but justice must be done for its own sake.
I'm paraphrasing, of course.
So is it possible to win this?
By political and cultural means.
Of course.
Because every example you've used is great, but it required violence.
Because they were faced with violence already.
And that's key.
Has it ever been done without violence?
Has it ever been done?
Of course.
Of course it's been done without violence.
Where?
In the United States.
So we've crushed communists before?
In the United States, in the first Red Scare, in the very first Red Scare during the really Teddy Roosevelt era, remember Charlie, we had a president of the United States that was assassinated by an anarcho-socialist, which to my chagrin was a Polish immigrant.
Leon Cholgash, who killed President McKinley up in Buffalo in 1901.
This is how Teddy Roosevelt went from being vice president to our youngest president.
And so during that time, communists were rounded up.
If they were foreign, they were kicked out.
This is where you get the communists, the alien sedition acts.
And so he was rounded up, they were rounded up and kicked out.
Emma Goldman is rounded up and kicked out.
So we take these Foreigners who are destabilizing our lands even some of them who had legal permission to be here But we decided because of what they were doing that we were going to get rid of them We did and we did actually produce we actually defeated communism during that first Red Scare
Through the power, by the way, of using institutions and using the legal means that are necessary to not respond with violence.
We did not respond.
Well, actually, Lee Ann Schulgus was executed, but but we didn't respond to the entire movement with violence.
We removed them.
So the last question, because and that's by the way, that's the difference between reciprocal reciprocity and reactionism.
So those reactionary is wipe them all out.
Last question.
Your book is on humans.
Are communists channeling the demonic?
Absolutely.
There's no question.
Now, they would never admit that, by the way, but this is how Satan and demons are able to infiltrate.
Once they use greed, they use the envy of someone who has more, they use lust, They use all of the seven deadly sins to their advantage.
Gluttony.
They use gluttony.
We live in a gluttonous society, and so all of these vices are specifically given.
We would never have a month dedicated to pride.
By the way, we would never do such a thing.
We even have a month dedicated to one of the deadly sins, the first of the seven deadly sins.
So, Joshua, in closing, do you believe that they're channeling the demonic?
That seems to be the case, because what Well, we were talking about this last night, Jack and I, how there is a genre of film, horror, which is explicitly Catholic.
And the exorcism and being possessed by dark and evil spirits.
Yeah, he held up his rosary. Dark and evil spirits.
And so that word horror, it's similar in the experience to terror.
And...
And terror is the most powerful weapon that on humans use.
By the time you feel terror, it's too late.
And we talked about how it's one of the most horrific nightmares that a person can experience is as a feeling of terror.
Charlie, during the Haitian Revolution, which was, by the way, a white genocide, before the genocide was conducted, one of the very first things that the revolutionaries, these freed slaves, they'd already been freed by the French, one of the very first things they did was commit animal sacrifice, drink the blood of goats, walk around in a circle in Haiti chanting incantations to the occult to come out of West Africa, And then they rose up after getting drunk on the blood of these freshly killed animals, and rise up and start slaughtering every white child, every woman is raped, every child is killed, every man is killed, their heads are chopped off.
It becomes a complete blood orgy in the streets of Haiti, completely kicked off by occult rituals.
Which, by the way, as we know, continue to this day.
