The Charlie Kirk Show - "Get Trump," No Matter the Cost with Alan Dershowitz
Aired: 2023-03-21
Duration: 36:16


=== Breaking the Will of the Base (09:10) ===

[00:00:00]  Hey, everybody, today the Charlie Kirk Show, Alan Dershowitz joins the program, and also we talk about the left's new push for segregation.
[00:00:06]  That's right, you'll hear it yourself.
[00:00:07]  Email me directly, freedom at charliekirk.com.
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[00:00:43]  Buckle up, everybody.
[00:00:44]  Here we go.
[00:00:45]  Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
[00:00:47]  Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campuses.
[00:00:49]  I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
[00:00:52]  Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
[00:00:56]  I want to thank Charlie.
[00:00:57]  He's an incredible guy.
[00:00:58]  His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
[00:01:06]  We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
[00:01:15]  That's why we are here.
[00:01:18]  Brought to you by my friends, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage, 888, 888, 1172 or AndrewandTodd.com.
[00:01:29]  Getting a fair amount of emails from you.
[00:01:31]  People are mad, and you should be.
[00:01:34]  And I think there's also a mixture, a combination of anger and helplessness.
[00:01:40]  And I feel that, and I see that.
[00:01:43]  And that's one of the most frustrating places to be in, right?
[00:01:45]  Because you're really angry about something and you feel as if you're nothing but a spectator.
[00:01:49]  I was getting texts all weekend, Charlie, what can we do?
[00:01:51]  Charlie, what can we do?
[00:01:53]  Now, if I were to just offer a recommendation, instead of, you know, protests in the streets and all that, which is not exactly helpful in some ways, it's fine if you want to do it.
[00:02:05]  Just be very careful and be peaceful and don't allow federal agents as agitators in there.
[00:02:09]  I think you should do something like we should just all fly our flags upside down for a couple of days, something like that.
[00:02:14]  That could be easily done.
[00:02:14]  Millions of people do it.
[00:02:16]  And it would be very powerful.
[00:02:20]  And that doesn't do much, right?
[00:02:22]  That's something that should be done.
[00:02:25]  But I understand the kind of combination of helplessness and total and complete anger.
[00:02:35]  Because what we're seeing is a destruction, an erosion of basic and fundamental civil liberties.
[00:02:42]  And we're going to have Alan Dershowitz, by the way, join us in a moment, who has a new book out called Get Trump.
[00:02:46]  I don't know if it's new or not.
[00:02:48]  He has so many books, I can't keep track of it.
[00:02:50]  Where is the new one Getting Trump?
[00:02:53]  Got it.
[00:02:54]  And it's the threat to civil liberties, due process, and our constitutional rule of law.
[00:02:59]  And Alan Dershowitz, I disagree with him on politics on lots of different things, but to his great credit, has been consistent and principled about how government should not be used to be weaponized against political dissidents or opponents.
[00:03:11]  And that's exactly what's happening here.
[00:03:13]  And interestingly, the left used to be champions of this, the ACLU, about government overreach and prosecutorial authority.
[00:03:21]  No, they've been taken over by totalitarians.
[00:03:23]  And it's really sad to see.
[00:03:24]  It's sad for the country because now we're entering into a very dark phase where it's going to be back and forth and back and forth.
[00:03:32]  And I'm afraid that's the only way to proceed because I'm not comfortable just allowing this to continually indict Donald Trump and come after Republican opponents and conservative opponents.
[00:03:43]  So obvious and it's so clear that it's for political purposes.
[00:03:50]  The Constitution is supposed to be a bedrock for all people, Regardless of power or status or race or color or creed or background.
[00:04:03]  And they've now investigated Donald Trump relentlessly at every level of government.
[00:04:08]  By the way, this might not be the last indictment.
[00:04:10]  Fulton County is saying they might do it.
[00:04:13]  So he might have two indictments and there might be one for Department of Justice for January 6th stuff.
[00:04:17]  So he might have three indictments happening simultaneously.
[00:04:23]  And Alvin Bragg is looking as if, I mean, they're putting up barricades outside of the Manhattan DA's office.
[00:04:28]  Maggie Haberman and others in the New York Times are saying, well, it might not be tomorrow.
[00:04:31]  It might be tomorrow.
[00:04:32]  We don't know.
[00:04:33]  They're kind of wishy-washy back and forth.
[00:04:36]  But it sure seems like it's this week.
[00:04:38]  And Donald Trump did not deny it.
[00:04:41]  Donald Trump this weekend said, yeah, it looks like I'm going to be indicted next week.
[00:04:44]  I'm going to be arrested.
[00:04:44]  I'm going to be fingerprinted.
[00:04:45]  I'm going to be processed.
[00:04:48]  And it really does kind of beg the question of how far are they willing to go?
[00:04:52]  And the answer is they're willing to go very far.
[00:04:55]  If they're willing to put people in a gulag post-January 6th, they're willing to go indict Donald Trump.
[00:05:02]  It's all connected.
[00:05:03]  It's the use of brute naked force.
[00:05:08]  700 riot police are getting ready to defend the Manhattan District Attorney's Office.
[00:05:13]  Oh, wait, so we're the Manhattan DA's office is going to have more protection than the Capitol building did on January 6th.
[00:05:22]  It's interesting.
[00:05:24]  I don't think the mayor of New York is going to deny requests for security there.
[00:05:28]  And by the way, everyone, please just stay peaceful.
[00:05:32]  Stay away from any areas you think might have federal agitators or might get you worked up in a way you might regret.
[00:05:37]  I just can't emphasize that enough.
[00:05:39]  They would love nothing more than to see people act in uncharacteristic ways.
[00:05:43]  It would give them the moral high ground.
[00:05:45]  Just don't do that.
[00:05:46]  I want to play another piece of tape here.
[00:05:48]  Cut 10, Fox News says, a lot of times this happens in lawsuits.
[00:05:52]  Play Cut 10.
[00:05:53]  Oftentimes, as attorneys, we can get sucked into the idea that this is about wins and losses and begin to try to figure out who would win a case when often what's happening is a lawsuit serves its own purpose.
[00:06:06]  Either it moves you towards a settlement, or in this case, it has its own political implications as well.
[00:06:11]  Just in the pursuit of understanding those political implications, on Tuesday, there will probably be photos of President Donald Trump in handcuffs.
[00:06:18]  And that has its own political fallout.
[00:06:21]  You also brought up the timeline.
[00:06:22]  Even if Trump were to win, how long would that take?
[00:06:26]  Because that then impacts his run for president.
[00:06:31]  How is this not election interference?
[00:06:34]  How is it not direct and complete election interference of Donald Trump running for the presidency?
[00:06:38]  They don't care because the rules don't apply to them.
[00:06:42]  It is bold, though.
[00:06:43]  It's a risk because it is a fiction of a legal theory.
[00:06:47]  If Donald Trump's lawyers are able to get any sort of rational person on the jury, it could be dismissed there as well.
[00:06:57]  But it's about slowing him down, distracting him.
[00:07:00]  It's not just about distracting the news cycle, which I think is part of it.
[00:07:03]  They want to distract him.
[00:07:04]  They want to wear him down.
[00:07:06]  They want to break his spirit.
[00:07:09]  They want him to surrender.
[00:07:12]  And I don't know about you, but that just makes me like him even more.
[00:07:16]  If Donald Trump really was not a threat to the bad guys, if he really was not a threat to neoliberalism, they would be ignoring and laughing at him.
[00:07:30]  But they know that there's something larger than life about this guy.
[00:07:33]  There is a life force that they just can't contain.
[00:07:36]  That there's an energy, there's a passion, there's an enthusiasm, there's a focus.
[00:07:41]  And after two impeachments and the DOJ and Fulton County and New York and going through every business transaction from Bedminster to the Trump Hotel to Trump Tower, this is what they have.
[00:07:55]  This is now what they have.
[00:07:59]  After a couple prosecutors passed on this previously and Stormy Daniels came out and denied having the affair, that should probably matter as well.
[00:08:09]  They raided Mar-a-Lago back in the, we forget about that back in the fall over document disputes.
[00:08:15]  It's interesting, the document thing has gone away because Biden has actually violated the document precedent far more egregiously than Trump did.
[00:08:22]  But they're trying to break his personal will.
[00:08:26]  They're trying to make him so distracted, so worn down, that he gives up, that he steps aside and says, I'm done.
[00:08:34]  I'm going to just kind of give up my movement.
[00:08:36]  I'm going to give it up.
[00:08:37]  I can't handle this anymore.
[00:08:40]  They want to break the will of the base.
[00:08:42]  They want to break the will of you, the everyday person.
[00:08:48]  They want to try to break your resolve, your commitment, your perseverance.
[00:08:56]  It's an extraordinary thing we're living through, and it's a sad day.
[00:08:59]  It's a tragic day because there are so many legitimate crimes that are happening in the country, and those just kind of get glossed over.
[00:09:07]  Those just kind of get dismissed.

=== The Left's Push for Segregation (07:06) ===

[00:09:11]  I sure hope, though, that it has an opposite effect.
[00:09:13]  I really do.
[00:09:14]  I sure hope that it emboldens the base.
[00:09:17]  That it doesn't weaken, that it doesn't make people surrender or give up.
[00:09:22]  Because boy, is that tempting.
[00:09:23]  It is tempting to want to just become awfully cynical because of what we have seen and what we are seeing.
[00:09:32]  But boy, they're going to get off on the imagery, I'm telling you.
[00:09:35]  They're going to run this.
[00:09:36]  They're going to frame pictures of it.
[00:09:37]  They're going to have parties.
[00:09:38]  They're going to have celebrations.
[00:09:40]  Finally, we got them.
[00:09:42]  Just think about how sick your life must be after so much struggle and even political differences.
[00:09:50]  That's where you find your meaning.
[00:09:53]  You find your meaning in arresting other people for nothing.
[00:10:01]  There's a spiritual crisis in this country, and filling it by locking up political opponents is a really bad idea.
[00:10:09]  Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
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[00:11:12]  There's so many other stories, though, I want to touch on here.
[00:11:15]  One in particular is just a cultural story that I think is important.
[00:11:18]  I've been saying for a while that the left wants to re-segregate society.
[00:11:22]  And one of the ways that you're able to expose that is you ask these campus activists or academics, do you want black-only dormitories?
[00:11:32]  The left believes race matters.
[00:11:34]  We do not believe race matters.
[00:11:37]  The country that we're entering into, this postmodern hellscape, this dystopian nightmare, they're outright calling for segregation.
[00:11:46]  Now, Robin DiAngelo wrote a book that I hope none of you ever have to read.
[00:11:50]  You probably might have to if If you get a job at some corporation, diversity, equity, inclusion requires you to read white fragility.
[00:12:00]  Really, what white fragility is, is it's white, it's really white wine mom fragility is what it is.
[00:12:07]  It's a bunch of wine moms that don't really know their place in the cosmos or the world.
[00:12:12]  And so they look for causes because religion was never for them because they were told it was untrue.
[00:12:16]  Or I had a really mean Catholic teacher.
[00:12:18]  And so I need to go find some sort of chakra balancing thing.
[00:12:22]  Okay, whatever.
[00:12:23]  And so, but white fragility speaks to them in religious terms.
[00:12:26]  So it resonates with them.
[00:12:28]  And these are the same people that download the 1619 podcast and listen to the New York Times Daily and NPR and they think they're being great crusaders and they rush into Walgreens to get their three-year-old the COVID vaccine because they're neurotic freaks.
[00:12:40]  You know the type.
[00:12:41]  And anyway, Robin DiAngelo is very well respected in that community of white wine mom activists.
[00:12:50]  And the left always reduces their people or reduces people, not their people, people to their immutable traits over and over again.
[00:12:57]  So listen to Robin DiAngelo, who is paid a ton of money.
[00:13:01]  Blake, can you get the numbers of how much money she was paid by corporations?
[00:13:03]  Hundreds of thousands of dollars to go talk about white fragility.
[00:13:06]  She's an outright segregationist.
[00:13:09]  If you ever had doubt of the type of country the left wants us to live in, they want to divide us purely and solely based on race.
[00:13:17]  They are not for integration.
[00:13:19]  They are not for a colorblind society.
[00:13:21]  They want whites to live in certain neighborhoods and blacks to live in certain neighborhoods.
[00:13:25]  They want to undo, they want to reverse any progress, moral progress that was done by the civil rights movement.
[00:13:32]  Now, the Civil Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act had a lot of problems.
[00:13:34]  We've talked about that on the program.
[00:13:36]  Just read Christopher Caldwell's book, Age of Entitlement.
[00:13:39]  Oh, by the way, this anti-racist article writer, she charges $14,000 per speech and she makes $728,000 just from speaking every single year.
[00:13:49]  Listen to Robin DiAngelo.
[00:13:51]  She is one of the quote-unquote thought leaders of race politics.
[00:13:54]  This is the country they want your kids to live in where race matters.
[00:13:58]  Play cut seven.
[00:13:59]  And then I'm a big believer in affinity space and affinity work.
[00:14:03]  And I think people of color need to get away from white people and have some community with each other.
[00:14:11]  And I'll let that go and maybe see if anyone else wants to pick it up.
[00:14:16]  That's someone who writes books for your children, affinity space, that they have to get away from white people.
[00:14:22]  They have to detach from white people.
[00:14:24]  How is her argument right there any morally different than the presidential candidate who won a couple states and a couple electoral votes?
[00:14:36]  People forget this.
[00:14:38]  Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.
[00:14:43]  How is it any different than the bitter southern segregationists of the Democrat Party?
[00:14:51]  How is it in any categorically different moral terms?
[00:14:56]  Khaleesa Wing on Twitter says, I'm so exhausted with white folks in these PD sessions.
[00:15:02]  This lady actually has the audacity to say that black people can be racist too.
[00:15:06]  They don't believe black people can become racist.
[00:15:08]  They believe you're immune from racism because you're black.
[00:15:11]  It's quite remarkable.
[00:15:13]  What was his name?
[00:15:14]  He was running for president.
[00:15:15]  Oh, geez, I should know this.
[00:15:18]  He ran and he won a couple states.
[00:15:20]  I think it was in the 1964, 1968 presidential election.
[00:15:25]  He was a southern governor.
[00:15:26]  Thank you, George Wallace, of course.
[00:15:27]  George Wallace, segregation today.
[00:15:29]  I knew it was George something.
[00:15:30]  I was going to say something else.
[00:15:31]  I'm glad I didn't.
[00:15:32]  Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.
[00:15:35]  And here's the essence of it.
[00:15:37]  It's because the left hasn't changed.
[00:15:40]  The left is the same race-obsessed movement that they were when they owned slaves, when they brought slaves in, when they managed slaves, and then eventually when they created segregation.
[00:15:51]  They have always been obsessed with race and they have a heart desire to re-segregate America.
[00:15:57]  Whites over here, blacks over here.
[00:15:59]  Under Robin D'Angelo's America, if you were to walk into a restaurant and you had bathrooms for whites and bathrooms for blacks, that would be acceptable to her.
[00:16:10]  And she's considered to be smart and successful.
[00:16:12]  Fortune 100 companies hire her.

=== Setting a Dangerous Precedent (15:37) ===

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[00:18:04]  Reports indicate that this week, Donald Trump will be arrested in New York.
[00:18:08]  No better guess to help us talk about how this is outrageous than the author of the book, Get Trump, The Threat to Civil Liberties, Due Process, and Our Constitutional Rule of Law, Alan Dershowitz, New York, number one New York Times bestseller.
[00:18:20]  Professor Dershowitz, welcome back to the program.
[00:18:22]  Well, you have to admit, my timing is pretty good.
[00:18:25]  This book was two days ago.
[00:18:27]  Did you have an inside source or something at the DA's office and you just timed it up with publication date?
[00:18:33]  No, I just know who the DA is and that he wanted his 15 minutes of fame, but I didn't know when he would indict.
[00:18:41]  You know, ironically, this is the weakest of the four cases that they're investigating against Trump, the weakest politically, the weakest legally, the weakest factually.
[00:18:51]  And yet Bragg wants to be the first out there.
[00:18:54]  Hopefully he's going to think of trying to get money for reelection from George Soros.
[00:18:59]  But in any event, this is one of the weakest cases I've ever seen in my 60 years of practicing law.
[00:19:05]  You know, they worked for months and months and months and months and went through every statute and they produced a mouse called Mickey.
[00:19:11]  This is a Mickey Mouse case.
[00:19:13]  So let's talk about that then more broadly.
[00:19:16]  I mean, even if you were to play the other side, Professor, what is the best case for them?
[00:19:23]  What is the best argument?
[00:19:24]  It seems so weak, so fragile, and also it just sets terrible precedent.
[00:19:29]  If I understand it correctly, it was a private transaction that we do not know all the facts surrounding that they're applying to a campaign finance law.
[00:19:37]  So now that personal finances can then impact campaign finance, even though it wasn't a campaign expenditure.
[00:19:45]  Am I understanding this correctly?
[00:19:47]  Well, it's impossible to understand it.
[00:19:50]  It's gobbly.
[00:19:51]  First of all, the federal government didn't prosecute this case.
[00:19:54]  They are the ones who have jurisdiction over election campaign contributions.
[00:20:00]  They said no.
[00:20:01]  So did Bragg's predecessors say no?
[00:20:03]  No, we're not prosecuting.
[00:20:04]  This is a state case.
[00:20:06]  And then Bragg comes in, and for his 15 minutes of fame and his perp walk, he gets to say, well, you know, it was a state misdemeanor.
[00:20:15]  He had records wrong.
[00:20:17]  It's only a misdemeanor with the statute of limitations, by the way, of two years.
[00:20:21]  But now, if we can find that he was motivated to fraudulently enter these records in order to prevent himself from being caught for a federal crime, then it turns into a state felony.
[00:20:33]  It's one in one plus 11.
[00:20:34]  It doesn't work.
[00:20:35]  You know, the great Justice Robert Jackson once said any good prosecutor can rummage through the hundreds of statutes and pick out something with which to get somebody who they don't like.
[00:20:47]  And that's not the way the law should operate.
[00:20:49]  This is a perfect example of Get Trump.
[00:20:51]  You know, the district attorney and the Attorney General of New York ran on the campaign to get Trump.
[00:20:56]  I got the title of my book, Get Trump, from their campaign.
[00:21:00]  They said, get Trump, and now they're trying to get him.
[00:21:03]  And in New York, it's possible they will get him because it's a very blue city and it's a very likely to be biased against Trump jury pool.
[00:21:12]  Now, it's, I think it's even worse than show me the man, show me the crime.
[00:21:15]  It's show me the man, I'll make up the crime and kind of twist the statute.
[00:21:19]  It's so, it's, I don't know if it's ever been used before, has it?
[00:21:22]  It's never been used before.
[00:21:24]  This is worse than Al Capone.
[00:21:25]  In Al Capone, they found actual tax violations that they went after him on because they couldn't get him on for murder.
[00:21:31]  Here, they can't even find a crime.
[00:21:35]  All they had to do was make up a crime, add one in one and get 11.
[00:21:40]  And it just won't work.
[00:21:42]  They'll get an indictment because, as the chief judge of New York once said, a grand jury can indict a ham sandwich.
[00:21:48]  And in New York, a petty jury will convict a ham sandwich if his name is Trump.
[00:21:53]  And so there is a possibility that he'll get convicted.
[00:21:56]  I think it'll be reversed on appeal, but by that time, we're well into the 2024 election.
[00:22:02]  So this is a real interference with my right to vote against him for the third time and anybody else's right to vote for him for the third time.
[00:22:11]  Let the electors decide who is going to be the next president, not some local DA who has a political bias and a political agenda to try to rerun for office on the basis of getting Trump.
[00:22:24]  That just is not the way the American system is supposed to operate.
[00:22:27]  Yeah, so Professor, you mentioned four cases.
[00:22:29]  I want to make sure I'm tracking.
[00:22:31]  Georgia, DOJ, New York, what is the fourth?
[00:22:35]  Florida, the confidential material.
[00:22:40]  That actually is the strongest case legally and factually, but the weakest one politically, because the American public will say, if they didn't go after Biden and they didn't go after Pence, why are they going after Trump, even if the facts are somewhat different?
[00:22:54]  So I don't think there'll be a prosecution for the Florida confidential material.
[00:23:00]  Yes, got it.
[00:23:02]  And I don't think there'll be a DC.
[00:23:04]  That would be the most serious one because it involves disqualification from running for office if he's convicted of some kind of sedition crime.
[00:23:14]  But the speech he made was constitutionally protected.
[00:23:17]  He said he wanted people to demonstrate peacefully and patriotically.
[00:23:21]  And the last one is that phone call.
[00:23:23]  But in the phone call, he said, I need to find, not make up, not concoct.
[00:23:28]  I need to find.
[00:23:29]  Find has a dictionary definition.
[00:23:31]  It means something's lost.
[00:23:32]  It's there.
[00:23:33]  And you have to search around to find it.
[00:23:35]  And so the most likely explanation for that call is to the state Secretary of State, please look hard.
[00:23:41]  There may be votes that have not been counted.
[00:23:43]  That's a perfectly legitimate phone call.
[00:23:45]  I got to tell you, Professor, that was the best summary of the Georgia defense I've heard from anyone.
[00:23:50]  You did that in 30 seconds.
[00:23:51]  You isolated the word.
[00:23:52]  You defined it.
[00:23:53]  It was very succinct.
[00:23:54]  And I find that to be persuasive.
[00:23:56]  But let's talk about your book.
[00:23:57]  I encourage everyone to get it, Get Trump.
[00:23:59]  One of the reasons why I think this is really powerful, Professor, is that you and I have lots of political differences.
[00:24:05]  But we both agree that the justice system as it's designed in America, if it's properly enacted, is beautiful and is the standard of the world.
[00:24:14]  But there are threats to our civil liberties beyond just getting Trump.
[00:24:18]  Can you talk about how this is bigger than Trump?
[00:24:20]  About if you're able to do this to political opponents and dissidents, it sets bad precedent.
[00:24:24]  It allows prosecutors to go above and beyond, and it actually makes us less free.
[00:24:30]  Without a doubt, there was a South American dictator who said, for my friends, everything, for my enemies, the law.
[00:24:37]  You can use the law to get anybody, as Justice Jackson said, or as the KGB had said, show me the man and I'll find you the crime.
[00:24:46]  This is the worst example in my 60 years of practicing criminal law, of targeting somebody for prosecution and then rummaging through the books, giving people immunity and trying to concoct a crime that doesn't exist.
[00:25:00]  And if this is allowed to succeed, none of our liberties is safe.
[00:25:03]  You know, today it's a Republican who's a target.
[00:25:06]  Tomorrow, it's a Democrat.
[00:25:07]  And the day after tomorrow, it's your Uncle Charlie or your nephew or your niece.
[00:25:12]  There'd be no limits on what prosecutors can do to their political enemies.
[00:25:15]  And they're going to do it to people who are running against them for DA next.
[00:25:20]  And it's just such a violation.
[00:25:23]  And not only a violation of American law and civil liberties, it's actually a violation of the Bible.
[00:25:28]  The Bible instructs judges two things.
[00:25:30]  Don't take bribes.
[00:25:31]  That's obvious.
[00:25:32]  But the number one thing is don't recognize faces.
[00:25:36]  And that's exactly right.
[00:25:38]  Yes.
[00:25:38]  Do not favor anyone in the court.
[00:25:40]  Yes, that's exactly right.
[00:25:41]  Yes.
[00:25:41]  Continue.
[00:25:42]  Sorry.
[00:25:43]  No, and that's why it violates every core of American value.
[00:25:47]  That's why this is one of the worst prosecutions I have ever seen.
[00:25:51]  Believe me, I've seen some bad prosecutions, some good ones.
[00:25:54]  I've seen guilty people acquitted and innocent people convicted, but I've never quite seen a prosecution like this where you had to staple together two unrelated statutes, one federal, one state, violate the statute of limitations, violate the rule of law, and concoct a crime.
[00:26:11]  You know, Thomas Jefferson once said for a criminal statute to be constitutional, you have to be able to understand it if you read it while running.
[00:26:20]  I'm sitting and I can't understand this prosecution.
[00:26:24]  So, Professor, I want to ask something about kind of high society liberals that are pushing for this.
[00:26:31]  And you've actually had a difficult couple years because of your principled stand.
[00:26:35]  And you joke around that all of a sudden the dinner invite stopped as soon as you started to defend Donald Trump.
[00:26:40]  I find that to be very interesting.
[00:26:43]  But can you, can you, maybe you don't have a good answer to this, but can you help me understand what is the psychology of people that for years were classical liberals and donors to the ACLU and were always fighting for the little guy against the big, awful criminal justice system that, you know, civil libertarians that seem enthusiastic now about using the instruments of government power to go after a political opponent.
[00:27:10]  It's shocking to me.
[00:27:11]  People like my former colleague Lawrence Tribe and others who were good civil libertarians, now they're willing to trash the Constitution just to get Trump, no matter what it takes, just to get Trump.
[00:27:22]  Look, some of these people think Trump is like Adolf Hitler.
[00:27:25]  And, you know, we assassinate Adolf Hitler.
[00:27:28]  And they want to legally assassinate Donald Trump, not physically, but legally.
[00:27:33]  And they're willing to sacrifice the Constitution.
[00:27:36]  What they say is a Trump presidency is more dangerous than unconstitutional actions.
[00:27:41]  And they're just wrong about that.
[00:27:43]  Precedents endure forever, as Justice Jackson said, they lie around like loaded weapons, ready for the hand of any tyrant to use it against their enemies.
[00:27:52]  And that's what's being done here.
[00:27:54]  They're establishing a precedent that any tyrant today, it's again a Democrat against Republican.
[00:28:00]  Tomorrow it could be a renewal of McCarthyism.
[00:28:03]  You know, in the South, when I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s, the segregationist South used to go against target civil rights workers like Martin Luther King.
[00:28:13]  They would find any little violation, any trespassing violation, anything, and use that to target them and lock them up and put them in jail.
[00:28:22]  And all of us were opposed to that.
[00:28:24]  And that's what's being done today.
[00:28:26]  The shoe doesn't fit on the other foot for most civil libertarians today.
[00:28:30]  Yeah, and it's so just personally when you communicate with them, I don't know how much you do.
[00:28:34]  Is that really the argument they make?
[00:28:35]  Is that this is such a argument?
[00:28:37]  Look, they don't communicate with me anymore except to shout at me and yell at me like Larry David.
[00:28:42]  I'm sorry.
[00:28:44]  But, you know, it's shocking that the way people are prepared to violate their own principles and to create precedents that are so, so dangerous for their children and their grandchildren.
[00:28:58]  You know, we look back today at people who own slaves.
[00:29:00]  I think 100 years from now, people will look back at civil libertarians and say, why were you quiet?
[00:29:07]  Why were you silent?
[00:29:08]  Why did you let 110,000 Japanese Americans end up in camps during the Second World War?
[00:29:15]  Why didn't you protest that?
[00:29:16]  Why didn't you protest when Donald Trump was prosecuted for something that wasn't a crime at all?
[00:29:22]  Why didn't you protest?
[00:29:23]  And I think people will be held to account for that in years to come.
[00:29:28]  I may be unpopular today with people on the left, and I am, but I think history will vindicate what I've been saying.
[00:29:36]  And, you know, I wrote my book, Get Trump for History.
[00:29:39]  I want to make sure that my grandchildren and great-grandchildren know that I was on the right side of this issue, even though I voted against Trump.
[00:29:47]  I stood up for the Constitution on behalf of Trump, which very, very few civil libertarians and liberals are doing.
[00:29:54]  I think that's really smart.
[00:29:55]  I think this actually doesn't feel as big as it will 40 years from now.
[00:29:58]  I want to talk about, if we can, Professor, another segment really quick about the historical implications here.
[00:30:04]  First time in American history, and you would think would be for a good reason, right?
[00:30:07]  Maybe they have him on film murdering somebody or burning down a building.
[00:30:12]  But I mean, to cross that Rubicon over this.
[00:30:17]  The double Rubicon.
[00:30:18]  It's not only a past president.
[00:30:19]  It's a person who's running for president now.
[00:30:21]  Yeah, that's true.
[00:30:24]  That's Banana Republic style.
[00:30:26]  Boy, we're going to talk about what we can do to fight it.
[00:30:28]  Part of it is actually reading your book.
[00:30:30]  And I appreciate the moral clarity and the courage from Professor Dershowitz on this because so many people on the classical liberal side disappear when the topic of Trump comes up.
[00:30:40]  Professor, you mentioned this, but I just want to recap.
[00:30:43]  If you were from the prosecutor standpoint, or if you were President Trump's defense attorney, which I recommend you do that again, like you did in the impeachment, which is the strongest case against Trump?
[00:30:51]  You said the document one, but you don't think they actually might advance that?
[00:30:54]  I don't think they will advance that.
[00:30:55]  I think that is the strongest case because factually there were classified material.
[00:31:00]  Trump's defense is likely to be ID classified them.
[00:31:03]  His lawyers haven't made that defense, probably because there's not a strong evidentiary basis for it.
[00:31:10]  But juries won't convict and people won't accept a selected prosecution where they go after Trump, but not after other people.
[00:31:18]  And I have said right from the beginning, if you go into any former president's residence, you're going to find some classified material, of course.
[00:31:26]  People are careless, and there's no indication that any of the people involved did it for malicious reasons, unlike Sandy Berger, who we know put classified material into his sock in order to take it home just for convenience so he could write his book.
[00:31:41]  But at least he did it deliberately.
[00:31:42]  The others probably did it just carelessly.
[00:31:45]  That's the strongest case, and it's pretty weak.
[00:31:48]  I think the strongest case in terms of impact would be January 6th, but they don't have the facts there.

=== Prosecuting Presidents and Evidence (04:20) ===

[00:31:55]  And the same thing is true of the phone call in Georgia.
[00:31:59]  The facts are too ambiguous.
[00:32:01]  So, look, there's a lot of smoke here, but there's no fire.
[00:32:03]  And sometimes when there's smoke, there's arson.
[00:32:05]  And that's what's going on here.
[00:32:07]  They're planting cases against Trump, not a single one of them as the basis for succeeding.
[00:32:13]  So, Professor, you made a strong comparison that failure to speak out against slavery 150 years ago was a moral injustice, and the failure to speak out about the political persecution against Trump is a moral injustice.
[00:32:25]  And history will not judge those people kindly.
[00:32:29]  Talk about the historical weight here.
[00:32:31]  As you said, it's a double crossing of the Rubicon for something that is a novel, would put it nicely, but unique and complete just twisting of the legal code.
[00:32:41]  Again, it's not as if they have a video of Donald Trump carjacking something, something that would be very visible, very violent, or something that would be Bernie Madoff-style pain or suffering.
[00:32:52]  We're talking about a private payment and not even applicable in a way that would be rational.
[00:32:58]  But talk about the historical significance here, Professor.
[00:33:01]  The historical significance is for the first time in history, an election has been affected by a prosecution.
[00:33:08]  Look, it may have been affected in 2016 by the ill-advised statement made by the head of the FBI, who was acting essentially as Attorney General when he gave his personal views of Hillary Clinton.
[00:33:22]  But that was just one person's personal views.
[00:33:25]  There was no prosecution.
[00:33:27]  Had there been a prosecution in that case, that too would have been a Rubicon prosecuting somebody just before an election.
[00:33:33]  That should never happen unless the evidence is overwhelming.
[00:33:37]  I like to talk about the two tests that have to be passed.
[00:33:39]  One is the Nixon test, and that is the only reason Nixon was removed from office because Republicans wanted to move.
[00:33:46]  It has to be bipartisan.
[00:33:47]  If you're going after the former president or a future potential president, it must be bipartisan.
[00:33:54]  It can't be seen as in any way partisan with political advantage.
[00:33:59]  The other is the Hillary Clinton stand, that she wasn't prosecuted, even though there was some, you know, pretty arguable evidence about her having in her possession material that she shouldn't have had.
[00:34:10]  So unless you can satisfy those criteria, I don't think a criminal prosecution is warranted, especially when you have to make up the crime.
[00:34:19]  And here, I think any honest criminal lawyer will tell you that this is a stretch beyond contortion, that this is not something that any responsible prosecutor would ever bring.
[00:34:31]  As I said, in the Al Capone case, at least there was evidence that he actually violated the income tax laws, even though they went after him because he was a murderer.
[00:34:39]  Here, they have to make up the crime.
[00:34:41]  And there's no original crime like the murder.
[00:34:45]  Their original crime, Professor, is him winning the 2016 election.
[00:34:48]  Not murder, but the killing of Hillary Clinton's presidential ambitions.
[00:34:52]  I think it's revenge-driven.
[00:34:54]  Do you think that plays into this?
[00:34:55]  Oh, I do.
[00:34:56]  Of course it does.
[00:34:57]  Look, I was a Hillary Clinton supporter.
[00:34:59]  I was a friend of Hillary Clinton.
[00:35:00]  I wanted her to win, but she lost.
[00:35:03]  She lost because she didn't campaign very well, and she made some wrong decisions.
[00:35:08]  It could have gone the other way.
[00:35:09]  She lost.
[00:35:10]  She won the popular vote.
[00:35:12]  But you have to accept it.
[00:35:13]  And I think President Trump should have accepted the 2020 election.
[00:35:17]  I hope he does before the 2024 election.
[00:35:21]  But look, Andrew Jackson didn't accept really the results of the election when John Quincy Adams beat him improperly.
[00:35:29]  And then he came back and he did win overwhelmingly in the next election.
[00:35:33]  So, you know, the American public has the right to decide who the next president should be, not District Attorney Bragg.
[00:35:39]  I agree.
[00:35:40]  Not generals, not anybody else except the people.
[00:35:44]  Gotta run.
[00:35:45]  Professor, thank you, everyone.
[00:35:46]  Check out the book, Get Trump.
[00:35:48]  It is the most important book that has come out in the last couple of weeks because it's written for today.
[00:35:53]  I don't know how you did the timing, but it's pretty remarkable.
[00:35:57]  Professor, thank you so much.
[00:35:58]  It's a pleasure to be on with you.
[00:36:00]  Thank you.
[00:36:01]  Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
[00:36:02]  Email me your thoughts as always: freedom at charliekirk.com.
[00:36:05]  Thank you so much for listening, and God bless.
[00:36:12]  For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.