The Charlie Kirk Show - Fossil Future with Alex Epstein Aired: 2023-01-26 Duration: 34:50 === Mastering Climate With Fossil Fuels (01:33) === [00:00:00] Hey everybody, today Charlie Kirk Show, an entire hour with Alex Epstein, author of Fossil Future and the Moral Case for Fossil Fuels. [00:00:07] Very articulate, incredibly knowledgeable on the issue of environmental totalitarianism. [00:00:12] Email us your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com and subscribe to the Charlie Kirk Show podcast. [00:00:17] Open up your podcast application and type in Charlie Kirk Show. [00:00:21] Get involved with Turning PointUSA today at tpusa.com. [00:00:25] That is tpusa.com. [00:00:27] Start a high school chapter or college chapter at tpusa.com. [00:00:30] That is tpusa.com. [00:00:33] Buckle up, everybody, here. [00:00:35] We go. [00:00:35] Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. [00:00:37] Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. [00:00:39] I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. [00:00:43] Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. [00:00:46] I want to thank Charlie. [00:00:47] He's an incredible guy. [00:00:48] His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. [00:00:56] We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. [00:01:05] That's why we are here. [00:01:08] Brought to you by Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage. [00:01:11] For personalized loan services, you can count on. [00:01:13] Go to andrewandtodd.com, the wonderfulandrewandtodd.com. [00:01:21] Welcome back, everybody. [00:01:22] Email us freedom at charliekirk.com. [00:01:23] I'm really excited for a full hour to dive into a topic that we hear almost every single day. [00:01:30] It impacts our transportation. [00:01:31] It impacts our political dialogue. === Turning Dangerous Climate Safe (16:04) === [00:01:33] And very few people think clearly about this topic and or have the courage to say what is necessary, that fossil fuels and the ability to use them is an amazing moral advancement for the human species. [00:01:49] I love people. [00:01:50] You should love people. [00:01:51] I believe people have souls. [00:01:52] They are worthy of protection and dignity. [00:01:54] They have value. [00:01:55] This idea of putting nature above people and or on an equal moral footing of people is preposterous and it is taking over the West. [00:02:04] One of the clearest thinkers on this topic is Alex Epstein. [00:02:08] I think I said Epstein correctly, or Epstein, I apologize if so. [00:02:12] Author of a couple books. [00:02:13] I want to talk about his latest book, but his book, The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels, is fabulous. [00:02:17] He also has a new book called Fossil Future, Why Global Human Flourishing Requires More Oil, Coal, and Natural Gas, Not Less. [00:02:26] Alex, welcome back to the program. [00:02:29] Hey, Charlie. [00:02:30] Unfortunately, it's Epstein, but everything else was perfect. [00:02:33] All right. [00:02:33] I apologize. [00:02:34] It's an understandable mistake, as you could probably. [00:02:39] With unfortunate implications these days. [00:02:41] Yes, unfortunately. [00:02:42] Okay, I'm going to let you riff. [00:02:44] Tell us about your book, why you believe what you believe, and we'll go from there. [00:02:49] So, you know, the most popular moral idea today, in my view, unfortunately, is the idea that we should rapidly eliminate fossil fuel use. [00:02:57] This is advocated by most leading corporations, most leading financial institutions. [00:03:02] Most governments in the world have commitments to rapidly eliminate fossil fuel use. [00:03:06] Usually the deadline is 2050. [00:03:09] And I think this is totally wrong. [00:03:11] And I actually think it's obviously wrong if you think about this issue in a pro-human way. [00:03:16] And specifically, if you do something very simple that everyone agrees you should do, but almost no one does when it comes to fossil fuels, which is carefully weigh both benefits and side effects. [00:03:26] If you're thinking about taking a prescription drug, nobody says, oh, just ignore the benefits, only look at the side effects. [00:03:32] And no one says, just look at the side effects, only the benefits. [00:03:34] And no one says exaggerate one or exaggerate the other. [00:03:37] Yet when it comes to fossil fuels, we live in a world of fossil fuel benefit denial. [00:03:41] Most of our leading thinkers attribute no benefits to fossil fuels, despite the fact that they make it possible for us to eat with natural gas-derived fertilizer, diesel-powered machines. [00:03:52] Both uses, by the way, are very, very hard to replace and have no near-term replacement. [00:03:56] And so also we use fossil fuels to master climate. [00:03:58] We're far safer from climate disaster than we used to be. [00:04:01] The rate of climate disaster death has gone down 98%, largely because of things like fossil fuel heating, air conditioning, building sturdy buildings, drought relief by irrigation and crop transport. [00:04:13] And so, if you ignore the benefits of a crucial life or death thing and you only pay attention to the side effects, that's wrong. [00:04:20] And it also should, it's very deadly, but it also indicates you have a bias. [00:04:24] And I believe the same bias that causes our leaders to ignore the benefits of fossil fuels also causes them to what I call catastrophize the side effects, to exaggerate them out of all proportion, particularly our climate impacts, and to ignore our ability to deal with them through our intelligence, including through energy. [00:04:41] So, I think it's actually obvious once you look at the facts from a pro-human, like full-context perspective, benefits and side effects, that the world needs more fossil fuels. [00:04:50] Certainly, should not be rapidly eliminating them. [00:04:52] That would literally be the most deadly thing human beings have ever done if we did that on a 2050 timetable. [00:04:57] So, Alex, let me just ask you to take a step back and define what is a fossil fuel. [00:05:01] Let's just get to the, let's define our terms here. [00:05:04] Some people act as if they know what it is and just walk us through the science of it, the geology of it, if you will. [00:05:10] I think it's important. [00:05:12] Yeah, I love that question because it's so important, and people don't talk about it. [00:05:18] So, on a surface level, you could just the first pass is: just fossil fuels include oil, coal, and natural gas. [00:05:25] And I put them in that order because that's the order of their prevalence in terms of economic prevalence. [00:05:30] Oil is number one, coal is number two, natural gas is number three. [00:05:34] And sort of the essence of it, which sounds a little bit technical, which is important, is that they are high-energy hydrocarbons derived from ancient dead life. [00:05:43] So, I'll explain that. [00:05:44] So, high-energy hydrocarbons. [00:05:46] Hydrocarbon means a molecule that's composed primarily of hydrogen atoms and carbon atoms. [00:05:52] Hydrogen is lighter than carbon, so, like, natural gas is CH4, so that means more hydrogen than carbon. [00:05:58] And coal has more carbon relative to hydrogen and oil is in the middle, which is part of why they're a gas, liquid, and solid. [00:06:05] And what's remarkable about them is they can store a very large amount of energy in a small amount of space. [00:06:12] And so, when you burn them, in the case of natural gas, you have to compress it to be small, but it's a small amount of mass. [00:06:17] So, when you burn them, you can take a relatively low volume or mass of this material and you can burn it. [00:06:24] And then, what happens is a lot of energy emerges from the chemical reaction, along with two major things. [00:06:30] One is H2O from the hydrogen, the hydrogen combines with oxygen. [00:06:33] The other is carbon dioxide, CO2, which we treat as this satanic gas. [00:06:38] But we should just really think of it clinically. [00:06:40] Okay, this is a gas. [00:06:41] It has certain properties, it fertilizes plants. [00:06:44] I also think it has a warming effect. [00:06:46] Most scientists think it's a warming gas. [00:06:49] But that's the basic thing. [00:06:50] So, it's a large amount of energy in a small amount of space or a low amount of mass. [00:06:54] That's why we use it. [00:06:55] And when we burn it, it releases both energy, but also water and carbon dioxide. [00:07:01] And then, the other thing it can release, particularly when we talk about coal and oil, is because it derives from life and particularly plants or microorganisms from the past, that's the other part of it. [00:07:14] It sometimes includes elements that are with that. [00:07:17] For example, like nitrogen naturally occurs, or sometimes mercury naturally occurs. [00:07:21] So, sometimes when you burn these hydrocarbons, they emit those things in the air. [00:07:26] So, you can have sulfur dioxide, or you can have mercury emitted. [00:07:29] And this is why we have different kinds of pollution control to limit those to safe or manageable levels. [00:07:35] So, that's what the fossil fuels are. [00:07:37] That's why we use them. [00:07:38] And also, the fact they're from ancient dead life, because there's so much life that gave rise to them, there are huge amounts. [00:07:45] So, people tend to think, oh, we're running out. [00:07:47] We actually have 10 times or more of all of these fossil fuels than we've used in the entire history of civilization. [00:07:53] So, the whole key is just: can we keep getting better at cost-effectively getting them out of the earth? [00:07:57] There's a virtually limitless amount of them for our purposes. [00:08:01] So that's a great explanation. [00:08:02] Thank you for that. [00:08:03] Why is it then that they've become so incredibly controversial and/or banning them? [00:08:09] For example, when I visit college campuses with religious fervor, the environmentalists, as if they are trying to persuade me to some sort of metaphysical view of the world, will tell me that if I do not admit that there is an anthropic, anthropocentric, you know the termic, that is, view of climate warming, then I'm a climate denier, that it is human beings that are increasing the temperature of the earth. [00:08:36] I find this to be a very sloppy way to view anything, but what's your take on that? [00:08:42] Because they are so insistent on that phrase in particular. [00:08:47] Well, I think that the notable thing which relates to the religious aspect is that this is treated as the only issue, and it's treated as the apocalypse. [00:08:57] Because as I said, if you look at the nature of fossil fuels, one thing that happens when you burn them is you release CO2. [00:09:01] CO2 is a fertilizing gas and a warming gas. [00:09:04] And so you would expect some amount of warming impact. [00:09:07] Now, you should all, there are also a lot of facts you should know, which I talk a lot about in the book Fossil Future in particular. [00:09:13] So one thing is the warming effect impact is a slash impact is a diminishing effect. [00:09:18] So it's like it tapers off over time. [00:09:20] It doesn't like accelerate forever like people think. [00:09:24] It tends to occur more in the coldest parts of the world, not the hottest parts of the world. [00:09:28] We've had 10 times more CO2 in the atmosphere in the history of this planet. [00:09:31] It definitely didn't burn up. [00:09:33] So the way you'd think of it is it's a modest warming impact. [00:09:36] And you can think about that. [00:09:38] You can think about the other things. [00:09:39] But then, of course, you have to think about any benefits of that warming impact and then certainly greening impact, which people don't do. [00:09:46] And then you need to think of the benefits that come with the energy, including the benefit of what I call climate mastery, our ability to neutralize climate danger using machines powered by fossil fuels. [00:09:57] And as I mentioned, this is so powerful that the rate of climate-related disaster death has gone down 98% in a century. [00:10:06] So fossil fuels didn't take a safe climate and make it dangerous. [00:10:09] They took a dangerous climate and made it safe. [00:10:12] And so why are these people treating this as the one issue? [00:10:16] And why are they treating it as apocalypse? [00:10:18] And I do think you mentioned metaphysical. [00:10:20] So one thing is they have a kind of metaphysical view that I call the delicate nurture assumption. [00:10:25] And this is the view that unimpacted nature has three attributes. [00:10:29] It's stable, so it doesn't change too much. [00:10:32] It's sufficient. [00:10:33] It gives us what we need as long as we're not too greedy. [00:10:36] And it's safe. [00:10:37] And then the view is that human beings are what I call parasite polluters. [00:10:41] So we just take from the earth and then we ruin the earth. [00:10:44] That's what our impact means. [00:10:45] And if you believe that nature exists in this delicate nurturing balance that's stable, sufficient, and safe, and that we're these parasite polluters who just ruin it, then you're always going to expect our impact to destroy the world. [00:10:57] And this is why you have these Paul Ehrlichs who are always wrong. [00:11:03] Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here. [00:11:04] Sometimes it feels like the world is being held together by duct tape. [00:11:07] And one more little push could bring the whole thing down. [00:11:10] Now is the time to get your own house in order. [00:11:12] That's why I urge you to go to mypatriotsupply.com and take advantage of a special new offer. [00:11:18] Stock up on their popular three-month emergency food kit with a new low price. [00:11:22] Did I mention that you'll save $200? [00:11:24] Go to mypatriotsupply.com to see all the amazing food you'll get. [00:11:28] This food will help you survive when the time comes to fend for yourself. [00:11:31] Go to mypatriotsupply.com and get a three-month emergency food kit for a new low price and save $200. [00:11:39] I think very highly of my Patriot Supply. [00:11:41] You are nine meals away from anarchy. [00:11:45] Are you able to feed your family when things start to fall apart? [00:11:47] Go to mypatriotsupply.com. [00:11:50] That is mypatriotsupply.com. [00:11:52] Write it down. [00:11:52] Remember it. [00:11:53] Mypatriotsupply.com. [00:11:55] You feel like things are falling apart, then you need to go right now to mypatriotsupply.com. [00:12:01] That is mypatriotsupply.com. [00:12:09] Alex, continue what you were saying. [00:12:12] Yeah, sorry, I might have been going a little long. [00:12:15] We have breaks. [00:12:16] So just continue on those three characteristics of nature and if you agree with them or not. [00:12:21] So it's the, yeah, so this idea of the delicate nurture assumption that nature exists in a delicate balance that's stable, sufficient, and safe, and our impact ruins it, and we're just parasite polluters. [00:12:31] Insofar as you believe that, you're going to believe that human impact inevitably leads to catastrophe. [00:12:38] And this is what you see. [00:12:39] We've had, I document in chapter two of Fossil Future, we've had four separate false predictions of fossil fuel catastrophe. [00:12:47] And they're not only false, I had to invent a new term for how false they are. [00:12:50] It's 180 degrees false because the exact opposite happened. [00:12:53] So they said we'd run out of resources, including fossil fuels. [00:12:56] If we kept using fossil fuels, we have more resources than ever, including more available fossil fuels. [00:13:01] They said catastrophic pollution, the earth would become unlivably dirty. [00:13:04] Actually, you know, clean air has increased and water has gotten far better, among other environmental metrics. [00:13:09] And they said catastrophic global cooling, catastrophic global warming. [00:13:13] And in both cases, we've become far safer from climate disaster. [00:13:17] And so you have to think like how can smart people say this? [00:13:20] And why do our institutions keep privileging them? [00:13:23] This guy, Paul Ehrlich, who's been the most wrong man of the last 55 or 60 years, he was just on 60 Minutes promoting his new book. [00:13:30] He's treated as what I call a designated expert. [00:13:32] And I think this delicate nurture dogma is at the root of it. [00:13:36] And that's really a religious belief. [00:13:37] It's the opposite of science. [00:13:39] Science really tells us that nature is wild potential. [00:13:42] So it's dynamic, not stable. [00:13:44] It's deficient, not sufficient, and it's dangerous, not safe. [00:13:48] And human beings are producer improvers whose impact generally makes the world a better place. [00:13:53] It's really about the core philosophy and rejecting this religious dog, this religious anti-human dog that we're parasite polluters. [00:14:00] Yeah, that's exactly right. [00:14:02] So, Alex, I want you to expand on something you said earlier. [00:14:05] You said thanks to fossil fuels, 98% of climate catastrophe has decreased or been limited. [00:14:11] And it's so clear that many of our elites and/or their apparatchic followers are sheltered by a postmodern and modern lens. [00:14:22] They think of climate catastrophe simply as the big stuff, the tsunamis, the hurricanes, and they think that warming is contributing to it, of which I don't subscribe to. [00:14:29] But they don't realize that man's battle against nature has just recently been conquered. [00:14:35] This is a rather recent phenomenon. [00:14:37] For example, I live here in Phoenix, Arizona. [00:14:39] If it was not for fossil fuels, it was very hard to be able to build a stable civilization here before air conditioning in June, July, August. [00:14:46] It gets to be 125, 130 degrees. [00:14:49] Another example would be just being able to inhabit most of Alaska, being able to shelter yourself from wind, being able to, you know, as you get older, not have to worry about it becoming negative 10 degrees. [00:15:00] Talk about how we have forgotten, we have no memory of man's struggle against the elements. [00:15:08] And we act as if now the only struggle we have is against hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, of which is legitimate. [00:15:15] I don't think fossil fuels are connected to it. [00:15:16] But talk about that 98% figure. [00:15:18] I find that fascinating. [00:15:20] So I would put all of these in the same category if you're talking about being protected from heat, being protected from cold. [00:15:27] But we're far climate-related disaster deaths include things like hurricanes, not really tsunamis, because not really climate-related in the same way. [00:15:34] That's correct. [00:15:35] But so you take like, you know, storms, floods, all of these things, wildfires, deaths from all of these are way down. [00:15:43] I document this really extensively in chapter seven of Fossil Future. [00:15:47] And if people just go to energytalkingpoints.com, they can also see all this info for free. [00:15:51] And so if you think about it logically, it makes total sense. [00:15:55] Like, Charlie, just think about it. [00:15:56] Would you rather live in the climate of 100 years ago or today? [00:16:00] I mean, isn't it obvious that we'd all rather live today? [00:16:03] And yet, we think about today's climate as uniquely dangerous. [00:16:06] But what we find when we realize how safe we are from climate is that the real variable that counts in terms of safety from climate is how good are you at mastering climate? [00:16:16] Above all, how good are you at neutralizing climate danger? [00:16:19] For example, I mentioned earlier drought. [00:16:22] How good are you at irrigating to avoid drought? [00:16:25] And how good are you at transporting crops from areas that don't have drought to areas that have drought? [00:16:30] We've driven drought-related deaths down by over 99%. [00:16:33] Droughts routinely killed millions of people a year just 100 years ago, and they don't anymore. [00:16:39] And it's fossil fuels that are driving this because they're powering the machines that irrigate the crop transport machines, et cetera. [00:16:45] And so, if you realize how good we are at mastering climate with fossil fuels, this is so important because it means that any future changes, we can use the same mastery abilities, which means that for future changes to be a big problem, they would have to be a total difference in kind for anything we've experienced in the last hundred plus years where we've already been emitting CO2. [00:17:05] So, if we've already been emitting CO2 and we're safer than ever from climate, why do people think it's going to be the apocalypse emitting more CO2? [00:17:12] It has to be, I think, a religious faith thing. [00:17:14] It's not a science. [00:17:15] Well, and I think, yeah, I mean, I really believe that it is these are disciples and acolytes of Marxism that have then transferred their Marxism into a pagan, earth-worshiping, environmentalist cult that they're then able to better achieve their economic Marxist beliefs in harmony of worshiping the earth, and they remain really powerful. === Al Gore's False Progress Narrative (05:55) === [00:17:38] Rents are soaring at unprecedented highs. [00:17:41] If you're renting or have a friend or family member, that is, now is a great time to make the move to homeownership. [00:17:47] Look, you got to own renting, that's great, reset stuff. [00:17:50] Andrew Del Rey and Todd Avakian at Sierra Pacific Mortgage have helped so many people make that leap from renting to owning with lots of programs that offer first-time buyers assistance with little to no down payment needed. [00:18:03] I encourage you right now to visit my buddies, their website. [00:18:06] They're great guys. [00:18:07] They're Christians. [00:18:07] They're conservatives. [00:18:08] They love the Lord. [00:18:09] AndrewandTodd.com right now. [00:18:11] The thing I love about these guys is it's not about the transaction. [00:18:14] They're helping you create a plan to help you reach your goals. [00:18:17] Give them a call or go to their website, andrewandTodd.com. [00:18:20] With today's still historically low interest rates, it's easier than you think to become a homeowner. [00:18:25] I've relied on them and producer Andrew has as well. [00:18:28] I highly recommend you take action now. [00:18:30] And if you knew someone paying rent, tell them about Andrew and Todd. [00:18:33] Go to andrewandtodd.com and tell them the Charlie Kirk Show sent you. [00:18:41] Alex Epstein continues with us. [00:18:43] Alex, I want to play a piece of tape here. [00:18:45] It's cut 85. [00:18:47] Al Gore at the World Economic Forum warning that we might have 1 billion climate refugees. [00:18:55] Play cut 85. [00:18:57] We have to have a sense of urgency much greater than we have yet had and we need and we need to make some changes, creating the droughts and melting the ice and raising the sea level and causing these waves of climate refugees predicted to reach 1 billion in this century. [00:19:14] Look at the xenophobia and political authoritarian trends that have come from just a few million refugees. [00:19:21] What about a billion? [00:19:22] We would lose our capacity for self-governance on this world. [00:19:26] We have to act. [00:19:28] Alex, respond. [00:19:32] One thing that indicates that this is a religion is just that every problem is tied to it, right? [00:19:38] So anything that happens negatively in the world is the fault of quote-unquote climate change. [00:19:44] And this should be particularly bizarre right now because it's pretty clear that a huge number of problems in the world are due to an energy crisis, high energy prices. [00:19:53] And when you have high energy prices, that means high everything prices because energy is an input into every industry because every industry uses machines. [00:20:00] So, for example, we're having all sorts of food problems due to high fuel prices for diesel machinery and especially high natural gas prices and modern natural gas is derived from fertilizer. [00:20:10] And Al Gore is a chief cause of this. [00:20:13] So if he were looking objectively at reality, he'd see, hey, so many of the problems today are due to lack of fossil fuels. [00:20:19] I'd say the other big cause is lack of freedom more broadly, including the lockdown approach to COVID, which is a big part of the supply chain crisis. [00:20:27] And he would say, you know what? [00:20:28] I've been on the wrong side of all of this. [00:20:30] I apologize. [00:20:32] Maybe I should just sit this one out. [00:20:33] I don't know. [00:20:33] I haven't made a correct prediction since I've opened my mouth. [00:20:35] By the way, Al Gore is super rich because of this. [00:20:37] Okay. [00:20:38] If you want to just get down, Al Gore was an irrelevant failed presidential candidate who his one thing that he ever did as vice president was like being remotely involved in like a moon landing project. [00:20:49] He was an awful vice president. [00:20:51] He scooped this up as a pet project, did Inconvenient Truth as a documentary, and is worth, I don't know, estimates say anywhere between $50 to $200 million personally. [00:20:59] Is that about right, Alex? [00:21:01] I mean, I'm not an expert in his net worth, but I've heard even higher estimates. [00:21:05] But I think the thing is, it doesn't really matter exactly what his motives are. [00:21:08] I think he's been an incredibly destructive force. [00:21:12] And notice what he's done. [00:21:14] He's just done exactly what he did here, and it keeps leading to disaster because he keeps saying fossil fuel side effects are ending the world and they have no benefits. [00:21:22] So let's get rid of fossil fuels. [00:21:23] That's what he means by there's more progress necessary. [00:21:26] For him, progress is prevented, forcibly preventing people from using fossil fuels. [00:21:30] That's what he thinks of as progress. [00:21:31] And so the exact thing he's doing here has caused the problems, but he is then causing more of the problems because he doesn't admit that the anti-freedom, anti-energy part is the problem. [00:21:41] It's not that climate is making everything worse. [00:21:44] So Alex, I want to play another piece of tape here of Al Gore. [00:21:47] You would think the guy who can't predict anything, in fact, you're right, it's worse than being wrong. [00:21:52] It's when the 180 actually ends up happening. [00:21:54] So Al Gore says in 2009, play cut 77, get it ready, polar ice may be gone in five years. [00:22:02] Play cut 77. [00:22:05] And some of the models suggest to Dr. Maslowski that there is a 75% chance that the entire North Polar ice cap during summer, during some of the summer months, could be completely ice-free within the next five to seven years. [00:22:30] Alex. [00:22:31] Yeah, I mean, it definitely hasn't happened. [00:22:34] I mean, I think that's one of the more accurate things he said in that it's less inaccurate than the others, because his main narrative has been that fossil fuels are going to like kill or ruin the lives of billions of people. [00:22:47] And they've actually made billions of lives, people, billions of people's lives better, including safer from climate. [00:22:53] The whole thing about the Arctic, it's a really weird focus because the reason you get more warming in the Arctic is because warming tends to occur in colder places. [00:23:01] That's actually really good news because we have far more cold-related deaths than heat-related deaths. [00:23:06] And we'd rather it get warmer in the places where people are too cold than on the equator. [00:23:10] So even that is a total distortion. [00:23:11] He's just, people are not acknowledging, yeah, warming is a thing, but it has benefits and it's definitely not a catastrophe. [00:23:18] And it's nothing compared to the benefits of fossil fuels. [00:23:21] So we have 3 billion people using less electricity than a typical American refrigerator. [00:23:25] Why aren't they talking about that? [00:23:28] And they're only going to try to get rid of more fossil fuel use, play cut 75. === Humanity vs The Environment (11:16) === [00:23:33] The Scottish government plans to reduce car kilometers and discourage car use altogether. [00:23:39] Just take your freedom away under the auspice or the excuse of environmental totalitarianism. [00:23:48] Play Cut 75. [00:23:49] On transport, second strategic transport project review published just two weeks ago confirms that the era of catering for unconstrained growth in private car use is well and truly over. [00:24:03] Furthermore, we have set out how we will reduce car kilometers by 20% by 2030 and prioritizes making best use of enhancing existing infrastructure before investing in new capacity. [00:24:18] The Scottish Government have commissioned research exploring demand management options to discourage car use. [00:24:25] And using the research findings, we will work with local and regional partners to develop a demand management framework by 2025. [00:24:34] Discourage car use. [00:24:36] Why are they doing this? [00:24:38] I like your term environmental totalitarianism. [00:24:41] You can use that. [00:24:42] Because that really captures it. [00:24:47] I mean, why are they doing this? [00:24:48] Is an interesting question, but let's just first say this is really evil. [00:24:52] So you think about how important to human life transportation is, and in particular, the automobile and what that makes possible in terms of individual fulfillment. [00:25:03] You just even think of transportation. [00:25:05] I'm planning a honeymoon right now that involves flying because I want to go see wildlife in Africa. [00:25:10] Like they say that's totally unsustainable, which just gives the lie to, oh, they care about enjoying nature. [00:25:16] They don't want you to go anywhere. [00:25:17] And if you don't go anywhere, you can't really enjoy nature. [00:25:20] So it's just this hostility toward using energy to empower human beings to live opportunity-filled, fulfilling lives. [00:25:28] Demand management, that is quite a euphemism. [00:25:30] That just means force deprivation. [00:25:33] That's what they mean, demand management. [00:25:34] That means managing your demand so it is less using force. [00:25:38] So why are they doing this? [00:25:39] Well, I think it's pretty clear it's not out of love for human life and it's not out of love of nature. [00:25:44] Because if you love nature and you're a human, you want humans to be able to enjoy nature. [00:25:49] So it's really a hostility, I think, toward all human impact, the belief that we're this parasite-polluting species. [00:25:56] The world would be better off without us. [00:25:58] And we should be eliminating impact as much as possible. [00:26:00] And that's why this kind of wonky, nerdy guy, his whole obsession is how do we get rid of as much human impact as possible. [00:26:06] And when I hear that, it's the same as if some bear hater said, I want to get rid of bear impact. [00:26:11] That means you want to kill bears. [00:26:13] And we should really want to restrict liberty. [00:26:19] I truly believe that. [00:26:20] Is that liberty? [00:26:21] Because liberty leads to impact. [00:26:23] That's exactly right. [00:26:24] Yes. [00:26:25] And in some ways, for some of them, I do believe this environmental totalitarianism, the term that I keep using, is a means to the end. [00:26:33] Okay, I want to ask, I'm going to play another piece of tape here. [00:26:36] I think it's helpful. [00:26:38] And again, this is a less serious person, but she does have some power. [00:26:41] She has influence. [00:26:43] And the environmental issue is the number one issue for Generation Z. Let's go to Cut 82. [00:26:51] It's interesting when Christians talk, I'm a Christian, I'm proud of it. [00:26:55] When we talk about the end of the world, we get mocked all the time. [00:26:57] Like, oh, wow, you always talk the apocalypse. [00:26:59] When environmentalists talk about the end of the world, they win medals and awards. [00:27:03] Play cut 82. [00:27:05] I think that the part of it that is generational is that millennials and people and Gen Z and all these folks that come after us are looking up and we're like, the world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change. [00:27:22] And your biggest issue is your biggest issue is how are we going to pay for it? [00:27:31] And like, this is the war. [00:27:33] This is our World War II. [00:27:36] Alex. [00:27:37] So I have a lot to say about this. [00:27:38] So, I'm speaking as a non-religious person. [00:27:41] And so, I would need evidence of the end of the world. [00:27:44] And the evidence that we have is that the world's getting better and better using fossil fuels. [00:27:50] So, again, they've driven down climate deaths, they've improved every aspect of life. [00:27:54] The most notable thing, and I write about this, this exact exchange in chapter four of Fossil Future, because I think it's revealing of something that's not just the end of the world. [00:28:02] Isn't notice the thing at the end that she says about like you're worried about how much you have to pay for it, and that refers to claims that the price of energy will go up. [00:28:10] AOC treats this as, oh, who cares about that? [00:28:12] Who cares about the price of energy? [00:28:14] I'm talking about the livability of the planet. [00:28:16] And my point is: no, no, no, you don't understand. [00:28:18] The livability of the planet depends on the price of energy because the price of energy determines your ability to use machines to be productive and prosperous on a naturally deficient and dangerous planet. [00:28:30] Without energy and machines, this planet is a terrible place that is completely unlivable by our standards and could not even support 2 billion people. [00:28:38] So, let alone A. [00:28:39] I totally agree. [00:28:40] After the break, I want to get to what I think to be the moral core. [00:28:44] And because you talk about the moral case of fossil fuels, and I agree with it because you come at it from a pro-human perspective, which I love, even though we have different religious views. [00:28:53] I don't think the other side actually values humanity the way you and I do. [00:28:56] I think that is also one of the cores here. [00:28:58] I think there is a view of humanity as being parasitic and being cancerous, and there's nothing exceptional or special about the species. [00:29:07] And so, I want to, I think that at its core is an anti-human component, in fact, a disdain for us. [00:29:12] And so, we could talk about that. [00:29:13] Alex Epstein is with us. [00:29:14] I encourage you to check out both of his books, including his new one, which what's the title again, Alex? [00:29:20] Remind me: Fossil Future: Why Global Human Flourishing Requires More Oil, Coal, and Natural Gas. [00:29:26] It's great. [00:29:26] Not less. [00:29:27] And, Alex, I give you full permission. [00:29:28] You could take the term that I coined, environmental totalitarianism, and run with it if you so choose. [00:29:33] I'm half kidding. [00:29:33] Sounds good. [00:29:34] I'm half kidding. [00:29:35] So, Alex, I think at the core, though, is a hatred of human beings. [00:29:38] I love humanity. [00:29:39] You love humanity. [00:29:40] I think there's something special and exceptional for human beings. [00:29:43] I have a religious view of that as also an objective one. [00:29:46] There's just something that is so people are beautiful for our ability to use reason and rational speech and our contribution to the world. [00:29:54] But if you really reduce the environmentalist argument, if you read their literature, it does seem to eventually get towards a negative view of humanity that we, as you say earlier, we're parasitic, that we are leaching on the land, and that the solution, therefore, very well could be depopulation or stunting human growth. [00:30:16] At the core of environmentalism in the modern era, is there a hatred of humanity? [00:30:22] Yes, I think definitely. [00:30:24] So, I think think about it, I think it really comes down to our environmental philosophy. [00:30:29] So, what is our view of the relationship between human beings and our environment? [00:30:32] And I've talked about one aspect of this already, which is this delicate nurturer dogma that nature exists in a delicate balance that human impact ruins. [00:30:40] And that explains partially what's going on. [00:30:42] And that's part of this view: oh, human beings are this self-destructive, bad species. [00:30:46] But there's also something even more insidious, if that's possible. [00:30:50] And I think it's reflected in the fact that most people view our environment today as getting worse. [00:30:56] Do you think that's a fair claim? [00:30:56] Not that most. [00:30:58] I mean, I think most people view our environment. [00:31:00] They're inundated with it all the time, that it is more polluted, more toxic, more chaotic, more species going extinct. [00:31:08] I mean, it's built into the narrative, into the zeitgeist. [00:31:13] But yet, if you look at the statistics about how humans flourish in today's environment, you know, look at most broadly at the Earth, you see it's just an incredible increase in how hospitable the world is to human beings. [00:31:25] I mean, life expectancy has never been higher, resources have never been higher as measured by income. [00:31:29] There's more people than ever. [00:31:31] So, we finally have a planet on which humans can flourish for the first time. [00:31:35] And it's viewed as the worst environment ever. [00:31:38] And I think this points to we have an anti-human moral concept of our environment. [00:31:42] That's correct. [00:31:43] We're not measuring our environment by hospitability to human flourishing, which is how I think we should measure it. [00:31:49] We're measuring it by lack of human impact. [00:31:51] So, the idea is the best environment is the one that would exist if human beings had never existed. [00:31:56] That's the end road of eliminating our impact or minimizing our impact. [00:32:00] That's exactly right. [00:32:01] That's a really, and I've spent a lot of time on this, particularly in chapter three of Fossil Future. [00:32:06] This view that human impact is intrinsically immoral. [00:32:10] This is a deeply anti-human view, and it has no scientific justification because, hey, you're a human. [00:32:16] I mean, imagine a lion believing that lion impact is evil and should be eliminated. [00:32:20] It makes no sense. [00:32:21] It would require a lion reason and a lion doesn't. [00:32:24] Perspective. [00:32:25] Well, but no, no, but it's interesting because how can reason? [00:32:28] It's bizarre that reason leads you to want to kill yourself. [00:32:30] That's what our reason has been distorted. [00:32:33] Welcome to modernity, Alex. [00:32:35] That's what we live through. [00:32:36] Well, that's that's a little scary, but you look at like take somebody like Sophocles and the ode to man. [00:32:40] I mean, it used to be obvious that, hey, human beings, like we're the best part of nature. [00:32:45] If the Martians looked at us, they'd say they build the best nests. [00:32:48] They're amazing. [00:32:49] We're not unnatural. [00:32:50] So, what when people say nature, like nature is more important than humans are in the same footing, what they're saying is non-human nature is superior to humans. [00:32:59] So, it's really not a love of nature, it's a hatred specifically of the best part of nature. [00:33:03] And that's what I find perverse. [00:33:05] Yeah, and this is where I think that there is this happy partnership, and sign me up for it between the religious, where we very clearly, I believe nature is there for us. [00:33:15] We need to take dominion over nature. [00:33:16] There is no moral equivalency between the human being and nature. [00:33:20] In fact, it must be subservient. [00:33:22] There must be a distinction between man and nature. [00:33:25] And I love humanity, and you do too. [00:33:28] So much of the modern world, though, we only have a minute remaining, does have a disdain for humanity, that we are inefficient, that we require so much nutrient to keep going. [00:33:39] This is taught now in college classes. [00:33:41] And then we wonder why people are killing themselves so much. [00:33:43] It's like, yeah, you're actually not celebrating the human being of what we're capable of, of our flourishing, of our vitality, our vitality, our ability to take risk, to create. [00:33:53] Instead, it's overly negative. [00:33:55] 30 seconds, Alex, summarize it all. [00:33:57] So, I think this points: do we really need a pro-human environmental philosophy? [00:34:01] That's what I try to put forward in Fossil Future. [00:34:04] If people read Ayn Rand, I think she's one of the leaders there. [00:34:06] Also, particularly her book, The New Left, and then Julian Simon, The Ultimate Resource. [00:34:11] There's a lot of good, not enough, but a lot of good pro-human environmental philosophy. [00:34:14] And if you recognize that, that's the key to just seeing through all this bad stuff and advocating the right stuff. [00:34:20] So, check me out at energytalkingpoints.com to learn everything for free. [00:34:23] Yes. [00:34:23] And if you were listening closely, a Christian and a Randian agree on an environmental philosophy, that's a beautiful thing. [00:34:29] And I think we need to do more of it. [00:34:30] Alex, thank you so much. [00:34:32] Really appreciate it. [00:34:32] Great work. [00:34:33] Thank you. [00:34:33] Thanks, Charlie. [00:34:35] Thanks so much for listening, everybody. [00:34:36] Email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. [00:34:39] Thank you so much for listening. [00:34:41] God bless. [00:34:46] For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.