The Charlie Kirk Show - America's War on Cops with Heather Mac Donald
Aired: 2021-04-14
Duration: 47:10

[00:00:00]  Hey, everybody.
[00:00:00]  Today, my conversation with Heather McDonald about BLM Incorporated police rates is America racist.
[00:00:06]  She is so smart.
[00:00:07]  American treasure.
[00:00:08]  You're going to enjoy this conversation with Heather McDonald.
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[00:00:29]  Here we go.
[00:00:31]  Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
[00:00:32]  Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
[00:00:34]  I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
[00:00:38]  Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
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[00:00:42]  He's an incredible guy.
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[00:01:52]  Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.
[00:01:55]  With us today, is Heather McDonald.
[00:01:57]  She is a national treasure, one of my favorite guests, and she is a phenomenal author.
[00:02:03]  I have memorized as much as I can of her phenomenal book, War on Cops, and her newest book, Diversity Delusion, is also terrific.
[00:02:12]  We're going to talk about that.
[00:02:13]  And Heather, you and I were just joking before we came on air.
[00:02:16]  I said, Oh, there's a shooting involved a police officer, BLM's in the streets.
[00:02:20]  Go get Heather on the podcast so we can get some facts back into our dialogue.
[00:02:24]  First of all, Heather, welcome back to the Charlie Kirk Show.
[00:02:28]  Well, thanks, Charlie.
[00:02:29]  And you've got the mouthpiece and amplifier for this.
[00:02:31]  So let's get those facts out there because this narrative that's been phony from day one is becoming more and more dangerous.
[00:02:39]  And I don't know if the country will survive it.
[00:02:42]  I share that concern.
[00:02:44]  And so our audience has nearly tripled actually since the last time you came on.
[00:02:48]  So it's going to be a little bit helpful to go through some of the stuff you and I have talked before, which is just first and foremost, the guiding thesis of your book, War on Cops, which is, I'll use an example, right?
[00:03:00]  So the New York Times I have right here, I read it so other people don't have to.
[00:03:04]  And it says this is their headline: Minnesota police kill another man as tensions build.
[00:03:11]  Is there some sort of another black man, right?
[00:03:14]  Yeah.
[00:03:15]  I mean, that's that's what they're saying.
[00:03:17]  Is there any truth to this that this is a widespread problem in our country?
[00:03:21]  No, absolutely not.
[00:03:22]  There is not a systemic problem of police racism.
[00:03:25]  In fact, a much larger share of white and Hispanic homicide victims are killed by a cop than black homicide victims.
[00:03:33]  Fully 10% of all whites and Hispanics who die of homicide are killed by a cop, compared to 3% of black homicide victims who are killed by a cop.
[00:03:45]  The fact of the matter is, Charlie, is that policing today is driven by crime.
[00:03:51]  The police go where drive-by shootings are happening, where armed robberies are happening, where in this current last six months, where the carjackings that have killed their owners are happening.
[00:04:02]  And that is overwhelmingly in black neighborhoods.
[00:04:06]  When you account for rates of violent crime, any population-based disparities in police shootings disappear completely.
[00:04:18]  And it turns out, again, that whites are shot at a higher rate than blacks when you look at violent crime rates.
[00:04:25]  But nobody in this country is allowed to speak about black crime.
[00:04:32]  And because there is an overarching narrative that we're systemically racist, and your scholarship has been so helpful at actually talking about how the disparities, as you just mentioned, is that police officers are more likely to shoot Hispanic or white people than Black people.
[00:04:49]  And so let's just unpack part of this.
[00:04:52]  How rare is it, Heather?
[00:04:53]  How rare is it that an unarmed black man is shot and killed by a police officer?
[00:04:58]  Because if you asked an average American, they'd say hundreds, thousands a year.
[00:05:05]  Well, first of all, we'll use unarmed very generously.
[00:05:09]  According to the Washington Post database of fatal police shootings, last year there were 15 allegedly unarmed black males killed by the cops.
[00:05:20]  15.
[00:05:21]  That's out of what's going to probably prove to be 9,000 at least black homicide victims last year.
[00:05:28]  Last year saw the largest percentage increase in homicide in this nation's history.
[00:05:32]  This year will be far worse.
[00:05:34]  I can guarantee you that.
[00:05:35]  But those 15 represent less than 1% of all people who die of homicide in the United States.
[00:05:45]  As I say, though, to even call them unarmed is a stretch.
[00:05:50]  The Washington Post wants to get its unarmed black numbers up as high as possible.
[00:05:55]  It's constantly reclassifying armed as unarmed to include people that are fighting an officer with his own gun, escaping in a car with a loaded weapon on the seat next to him, struggling in a way to make it seem like that suspect is about to try and kill the officer.
[00:06:18]  So the number of actually peaceful, non-resisting, unarmed suspects who are killed by a cop every year would easily be less than the fingers on a single hand.
[00:06:32]  And so Heather, I have just a point of curiosity.
[00:06:36]  Why is the Washington Post the authority in this metric?
[00:06:39]  Is there any other institute that has tried to do this tabulation?
[00:06:42]  Because I hear that is the kind of common reference point.
[00:06:45]  I'm just curious.
[00:06:47]  I don't know.
[00:06:48]  The Guardian has got its own database.
[00:06:51]  And it's a very good point, Charlie.
[00:06:53]  There should be some countervailing weight.
[00:06:58]  I suspect that the numbers, the raw numbers, it's been interesting because since the Washington Post began collecting this database in 2015, the number of people killed by the cops every year, and again, this is not what your viewers are going to be expecting to hear.
[00:07:15]  About 1,000 people are killed nationwide by the cops in fatal police shootings every year, the vast majority armed and violent.
[00:07:26]  I suspect that those numbers are probably pretty accurate because the Post is scrubbing every news source it can get, but it is the classification issue where the Post is clearly putting its thumb on the scale.
[00:07:40]  Yeah, and so there's a conflation of terms, and it's done intentionally, of unarmed and somehow not necessarily peaceful.
[00:07:49]  There's a better word I'm thinking of, but as if they don't pose any sort of threat or danger.
[00:07:54]  Would you agree with that?
[00:07:56]  Right.
[00:07:56]  Oh, absolutely.
[00:07:58]  They want to get the sacred unarmed category out there in as many cases as possible, but that is not what an officer is experiencing.
[00:08:08]  You know, we recently, now we're going through a preliminary set of pre-summer riots after the tragic and truly outrageous shooting in Brooklyn Center.
[00:08:23]  But let's remember that car stops are the most dangerous thing that an officer does.
[00:08:29]  Just last week in Oak Park, Illinois, a police officer was shot and is in serious condition.
[00:08:37]  He may have since died.
[00:08:39]  I haven't followed up.
[00:08:40]  After a driver in a traffic stop shot him in Texas on the 7th of April, a 36-year-old felon with a 10-year prison record on him fatally shot a Texas trooper in the head after that trooper responded to a disabled vehicle call, which was the felon's own car.
[00:09:03]  So this is the type of violence against police officers that is going on on a regular basis.
[00:09:13]  It turns out that black males are the vast majority of threats to police officers.
[00:09:22]  Black males constitute 6% of the nation's population.
[00:09:27]  Over a decade, they've accounted for 42% of all fatal police killings, making a police officer anywhere between 18 and 30 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be shot by a police officer.
[00:09:47]  So again, we haven't heard of that.
[00:09:50]  It's a powerful statistic.
[00:09:52]  And also with the Dante Wright incident, he fled arrest.
[00:09:56]  If he would have obeyed police officers and went in to the local authorities, he would likely still, he'd almost assuredly still be alive.
[00:10:04]  Heather, can you talk about the Ferguson effect?
[00:10:07]  You coined this term, and it's a phenomenal piece of scholarship you did on this.
[00:10:12]  And I think it ties in together.
[00:10:13]  I think there's an extra part of the Ferguson effect, which we saw with Dante Wright, which is, you're not in charge of me, police officers.
[00:10:19]  I can flee.
[00:10:20]  You might not find me.
[00:10:21]  I'll get out on bail.
[00:10:22]  I think that actually contributed to the fact that this went into a chaotic situation.
[00:10:26]  And this woman police officer, who her intent was not to murder or even racially profile, I just don't think she was ready for prime time.
[00:10:33]  She was not ready for an intense police situation.
[00:10:37]  That's something that's a mistake, not something that's going to be, they're categorizing as something different.
[00:10:42]  But talk about the Ferguson effect.
[00:10:43]  It's a really powerful piece of data.
[00:10:46]  Well, first of all, let me just put in a pitch here against diversity in police forces as an independent value.
[00:10:54]  It is utterly irrelevant what the sex is of police officers or what their race is.
[00:11:00]  The only thing that should matter is their physical strength, their capacity to understand the law, to keep their cool under situations of stress.
[00:11:09]  Officers need endless reinforcement on stress training, on tactical training.
[00:11:16]  This woman probably should not have been on the force.
[00:11:19]  And we do know that female officers have a higher rate of using their guns because they don't have the physical strength to subdue officers with something short of lethal force.
[00:11:32]  So diversity is a disaster no matter where it is practiced.
[00:11:38]  And yes, what we see with the Dante case is not just Ferguson effect, but the resisting arrest is going to go up.
[00:11:46]  The more that the police are completely delegitimized by the national media, by President Biden, by Vice President Kamala Harris, the less authority they have.
[00:12:00]  And we're going to go into an increasingly vicious cycle.
[00:12:04]  More resisting, more officers feeling compelled to use force, a small percentage of those resisting arrest incidents resulting in officer use of lethal force, more riots, more police officers backing off.
[00:12:20]  The Ferguson effect describes the dual phenomena of officers backing off from essential discretionary proactive policing under the phony narrative of police racism, resulting in criminals becoming emboldened.
[00:12:35]  I first noticed this in 2015 and 2016 following the Michael Brown false narrative, the riots of 2015, 2016, cops backed off.
[00:12:47]  We saw in city after city, arrests plummeted, stops plummeted.
[00:12:51]  2015 and 2016 saw at that time the largest two-year increase in homicides in the nation's history.
[00:12:59]  What we went through in 2020, you can either call it Ferguson Effect 2.0 or the Minneapolis effect, made the original Ferguson effect look like child's play.
[00:13:11]  We had four dozen black children being killed in these insane, grotesque drive-by shootings.
[00:13:20]  The children killed in their beds, in their front yards, in their backyards, at barbecues, at birthday parties, driving in the seat with their gangbanger father.
[00:13:31]  Not a single peep from the Black Lives Matter movement about any of those lost lives.
[00:13:38]  We've had, as I said before, the largest percentage increase in homicides in this nation's history, and the crime increase is continuing.
[00:13:48]  The victims are overwhelmingly black.
[00:13:50]  Not a word from President Biden about them, but it is going to start bleeding into suburban white communities.
[00:13:58]  We're seeing this with the carjackings now.
[00:14:01]  You know, in Baltimore, on April 3rd, a man was run over with his own car in Baltimore, died.
[00:14:10]  He was dragged in a carjacking effort by these juveniles that are out there to just without any sense of consequences.
[00:14:18]  And you're absolutely right, Charlie.
[00:14:20]  One contributing effect to the resistance is not just the hatred for cops, it's also the sense that they can get away with literal murder because the criminal justice system on a daily basis is being unwound because it inevitably has a disparate impact on blacks.
[00:14:41]  That is true.
[00:14:42]  It has a disparate impact on blacks.
[00:14:44]  Blacks are incarcerated.
[00:14:46]  They're about 33% of the nation's prison population, despite making up 12% of the nation's population.
[00:14:55]  So that's a disparity.
[00:14:57]  What's a larger disparity is the rate at which Blacks commit violent crime.
[00:15:03]  They're in prison because they are committing the lion's share of violent crime in this country.
[00:15:11]  But instead of addressing that, talking about that, we're blaming the criminal justice system.
[00:15:16]  And after this latest riot, you're going to see every prosecutor in the country and police departments saying, we throw up our hands.
[00:15:26]  We're not doing traffic stops anymore.
[00:15:29]  Whether they'll even do warrant enforcement, I don't know.
[00:15:32]  But we are heading into a very, very bad situation.
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[00:16:49]  Heather, I totally agree with you.
[00:16:51]  And a couple of thoughts on that.
[00:16:53]  Correct me if I'm wrong.
[00:16:54]  Blacks are actually under-incarcerated per their rate of violent crime as a percentage of that.
[00:17:01]  I mean, there's not a direct court, it's actually there's an under-incarcer.
[00:17:05]  Is that correct?
[00:17:06]  There's studies that have been done that show that if you look at rates of sentencing to prison after commission of a felony, blacks are under-incarcerated.
[00:17:20]  You know, whether that's true nationwide, I don't know, but surely at this point, we've lost any hope that the criminal justice system is going to be truly colorblind.
[00:17:32]  Just as this jury in the George Floyd trial, the chance that it's going to put its own safety at risk and the safety of the country at risk by following the evidence is very small.
[00:17:44]  And I'm sure juries and judges in other situations may have the pressure of this phony meme of mass incarceration bearing down on their judgments.
[00:17:57]  You know, mass, yes, we have a greater prison population than other industrialized countries.
[00:18:01]  That too is true.
[00:18:03]  But what you'll never hear from the mass incarceration crowd is that America's rate of gun violence is like 50 times higher than that of Western European countries or Japan or Sweden or Switzerland, not because of gun ownership, but because of gun, because of family breakdown and the utter breakdown of bourgeois norms in these insane inner city gang culture.
[00:18:31]  I totally see that the same way.
[00:18:33]  I think we're headed into the bloody 20s, not the roaring 20s.
[00:18:37]  Can you talk about the unprecedented rise in violent crime and where this is headed?
[00:18:43]  I'm trying to tell people this, and they're really, it doesn't register yet.
[00:18:48]  I look at the same statistics you do.
[00:18:50]  I say, we're about to enter a whole new chapter in America where we're going to have more people committing violent crime, less people being held accountable for it, and less police officers that actually want to enforce and protect their communities.
[00:19:03]  How does this end?
[00:19:05]  Well, it will end when white children get killed at the rate of black children.
[00:19:12]  You know, the media likes to think of itself as so anti-racist.
[00:19:17]  The fact of the matter is, it doesn't give a damn about black lives unless they've been killed by a cop or by another white person, which is the rarest of instances.
[00:19:26]  The fact of the matter is, if you want to look at, you know, and we hear LeBron James talking about, oh, they kill us every time we go out.
[00:19:35]  I just saw a tweet from Stevie Wonder, you know, saying black people are under threat every time they go outside of their house.
[00:19:41]  Joe Biden said that during the campaign, that black parents are right to worry about their children every time they step out of their house, that echoing a claim that President Obama made constantly.
[00:19:52]  Here's the reality, Charlie, about interracial violence.
[00:19:57]  If you look at the entire universe of black on white and white on black violence, things like armed robberies, everything excluding homicide, because this is based on victim self-reports.
[00:20:09]  So if you're dead, you're not going to report to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
[00:20:13]  But everything short of homicide, rape, robbery, assault, aggravated assault shootings, blacks commit 88% of all interracial violence between blacks and whites and whites and black on blacks.
[00:20:28]  So it's not whites who are a threat to blacks.
[00:20:33]  If we're going to racialize this, let's be honest, you know, the rate of if you're going to be shot in a robbery, the chances are your assailant is going to be black.
[00:20:48]  And where this is heading right now, the media doesn't care because the overwhelming number of homicide victims or shooting victims are black because they're happening in these gang turf wars between utter Cretans, utter morons.
[00:21:06]  They go and they drive up to a corner and they just start spraying bullets.
[00:21:10]  I mean, this is something that most Americans have no clue.
[00:21:15]  They have no inkling about because the media refuses to cover it.
[00:21:20]  But this will start spilling out into white neighborhoods.
[00:21:24]  You're absolutely right to mention police recruiting.
[00:21:27]  This was true last year after the summer riots.
[00:21:31]  Department after department says we cannot find officers.
[00:21:35]  The retirements, the early disability pay, people calling in sick, departments forget defund the police movement.
[00:21:44]  This is happening voluntarily on the part of departments.
[00:21:47]  They are way, way short-staffed.
[00:21:50]  And it is going to be very, very hard to recruit anybody into a profession where you're a racist from the day you step on the job.
[00:22:00]  And, you know, again, like just this last week, I just have to, it's so stunning to me the deliberate silence of the media about black crime.
[00:22:14]  They're a bunch of hypocrites.
[00:22:15]  So since Friday in Chicago, you had a 17-year-old killed in the back in a triple shooting.
[00:22:23]  Since Friday, in Baltimore last week, four people were killed, three were wounded, including a 14-year-old girl in less than 24 hours.
[00:22:32]  On April 6th in Chicago, a one-year-old boy was shot in a probably a gang road rage incident in Chicago.
[00:22:43]  This is going on daily.
[00:22:46]  It's a different, it's like a different universe.
[00:22:49]  But the carjackings we've been seeing, you know, in Chicago now, you have the police declaring certain times where you can go to a gas station to fuel up your car and they will be there to protect you because otherwise the carjackings are out of control.
[00:23:07]  That's true in Washington, D.C., it's true in Philadelphia.
[00:23:11]  And we might also address this other phony narrative about anti-Asian violence, that this is the cause, you know, the result of white supremacy.
[00:23:20]  There again, who's beating up these 90-year-old Asians walking on the street?
[00:23:28]  Black men.
[00:23:29]  And the media continues to portray this as a function of white supremacy.
[00:23:34]  I don't like the hyperracialization of our country, but if they're going to do that, then fine.
[00:23:39]  Be truthful and factual.
[00:23:41]  I completely agree with that.
[00:23:43]  And what I want to get to what I think is actually driving a lot of the indifference towards this, which is really a power grab.
[00:23:52]  And it's really actually super, it's super sick when it really comes down to it of the people in charge.
[00:23:57]  And there's so many different ways we can unpack what you've said.
[00:24:02]  And it's important.
[00:24:04]  But another piece of information I want, I have it written down here.
[00:24:07]  Last week, a black man, former NFL player, shot six people and then shot himself.
[00:24:12]  That's a mass shooting.
[00:24:14]  Very few people even knew that happened.
[00:24:16]  Black guy shoots six people, then shoots himself.
[00:24:19]  I guarantee you, if that guy had a MAGA hat at home, it would have been on the front page of the New York Times here.
[00:24:23]  Number one story in the country.
[00:24:25]  And so we're seeing this ever-growing trend.
[00:24:28]  And police officers are going to say, I don't have to deal with this.
[00:24:30]  I saw a video from Minneapolis recently where police officers are just standing there and watching these thugs destroy their police cars because they know that if they go try to arrest one of them, it might turn into a situation where they're going to lose their job, lose their pension, lose their family, and they're going to be out in the witness stands.
[00:24:46]  They're like, hey, let them burn down our car.
[00:24:49]  At least I don't have to deal with it.
[00:24:50]  I can go home tonight and I can wear my gear.
[00:24:52]  They won't know my identity.
[00:24:53]  I could stay anonymous.
[00:24:55]  And that's not policing.
[00:24:57]  That's being some sort of indifferent spectator to crime.
[00:25:00]  So I want to go to what I think is above all of this, which is actually your latest book, Diversity Delusion.
[00:25:05]  And I think one of the main reasons why white liberals are pushing this forward is I think they have some deep-seated guilt about their own identity, their own life, their own wealth.
[00:25:15]  And Shelby Steele calls it white guilt.
[00:25:17]  And I agree with that.
[00:25:18]  I think it's even deeper than that, though.
[00:25:20]  I don't think that deep down they're actually comfortable with this idea of earned success at all.
[00:25:25]  I think that they feel either consciously or subconsciously a need to try to repatriate or redistribute the wealth of a country to people that either they are convinced or disadvantaged, but that they want to be in charge at the end of it.
[00:25:40]  So, Heather, help us unpack this.
[00:25:42]  You mentioned this briefly.
[00:25:43]  Is diversity our strength?
[00:25:44]  Because that is just thrown at us every single day.
[00:25:47]  Is diversity our strength or is it a delusion?
[00:25:50]  Diversity, in fact, as it's used today, is simply a euphemism for racial preferences.
[00:25:55]  Whenever anybody is talking about diversity, what they mean is we need to set aside colorblind meritocratic standards in order to hire by racial quota.
[00:26:08]  So, in that sense, it is far from being a strength, it is an absolute recipe for weakness and for failure.
[00:26:19]  We are unraveling every meritocratic standard in this country, whether it's in science fields, law, putting people on the bench, things that really matter, engineering, physics, math, and law enforcement, because they have a disparate impact on blacks because of the academic skills gap.
[00:26:43]  So, generally, I don't think that there's diversity in its own sake is not a strength, it's not a weakness.
[00:26:52]  It all depends.
[00:26:54]  It depends on whether a diverse defined by the usual trivialities of gonads and melanin are only that's only interesting if people are willing to abide by a common code of culture, which is bourgeois norms of self-discipline, deferred gratification, respect for others.
[00:27:21]  If they're not, and if you're defining, you know, attention to detail, a belief in objectivity, belief in fairness as white.
[00:27:34]  And so by invoking diversity, you're trying to destroy these allegedly white norms, then diversity is absolutely not a strength.
[00:27:42]  And, you know, this is very taboo to say, but it does look like the sociological evidence says that homogeneity is actually a strength.
[00:27:53]  And, you know, this goes against a deep grain of our recent narrative.
[00:27:58]  But if you look at the social capital in Japan, that has literally zero crime, an enormous amount of social trust.
[00:28:08]  That was true in Scandinavian countries before they became woke and absorbed a whole bunch of third world refugees.
[00:28:18]  And this was the infamous finding of a sociologist Robert Putnam, who against his own inclinations, he's very progressive, studied so-called diverse communities in America and found that the more diverse they were in terms of the traditional lefty attributes and including national origin, the less people trusted their neighbors, were willing to help out, to volunteer.
[00:28:46]  This, again, nobody wants to hear this, but there's been no contrary findings that show that the more diverse a population, the more socially engaged people are.
[00:29:04]  So, you know, as I say, the prerequisite to diversity being a strength is that everybody's on the same page with regards to obedience to law and order, respect for authority, and hard work and self-discipline.
[00:29:22]  A few decades ago, private citizens used to be that, private citizens.
[00:29:25]  What's changed?
[00:29:26]  The internet.
[00:29:27]  Think about everything you've browsed, searched for, watched, or tweeted.
[00:29:30]  Now imagine all of that data being crawled through, collected, and aggregated by third parties into a permanent public record.
[00:29:36]  Your record, having your life exposed for others to see was once something only celebrities worried about.
[00:29:42]  But in an era where everyone is online, everyone is a public figure.
[00:29:45]  To keep my data private, when I go online, I always turn on ExpressVPN.
[00:29:49]  Did you know that there are hundreds of data brokers out there whose sole business is to buy and sell your data?
[00:29:54]  The worst part is they don't have to tell you who they're selling it to or get your consent.
[00:29:58]  One of the data points is your IP address.
[00:30:00]  Data harvesters use your IP address to uniquely identify you and your location.
[00:30:05]  But with ExpressVPN, my connection gets rerouted through an encrypted server and my IP address is masked.
[00:30:10]  Every time I turn on ExpressVPN, I'm given a random IP address shared by other ExpressVPN customers.
[00:30:17]  That makes it more difficult for third parties to identify me and harvest my data.
[00:30:21]  And the best part is how ExpressVPN, how easy it is to use, no matter what device you're on, phone or laptop, maybe smart TV.
[00:30:28]  So if you like me and you believe that your data is your business, go to expressvpn.com slash Charlie and get three extra months free, E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-PN.com slash Charlie.
[00:30:39]  Go to expressvpn.com slash Charlie.
[00:30:44]  At the very least, if you're going to have this overemphasis on diversity, then you must have some form of unity and a through line of connectivity, which is a national language, a national ambition, culture, which worked in America generally in the 1980s, 90s, and early 2000s when violent crime went down.
[00:31:07]  I said generally, it worked better than it is today.
[00:31:09]  At least when I grew up in America in a generally racially diverse environment in the suburbs of Chicago, I did not walk around thinking I was a white person every day.
[00:31:18]  I went to school with Hispanics and blacks, and we got along well, and we were able to have a decent upbringing.
[00:31:26]  The school's a mess now.
[00:31:27]  The point is that now that school is a total disaster where there's privilege walks, kids apologizing for their whiteness, people taking these, critical race theory, the whole nonsense, and it's unraveling.
[00:31:38]  And so talk more about this diversity delusion where it's almost become this false god and this idol of the ruling class that this is the ultimate value that we must strive for, which is, and they don't even believe it.
[00:31:50]  They don't believe in ideological diversity.
[00:31:51]  They don't believe in spiritual diversity.
[00:31:52]  They just believe in melanin diversity.
[00:31:55]  How did this become such an emphasis of the ruling class?
[00:31:59]  Well, I agree with you, and I certainly agree with Shelby Steele, and he was the leader of us all in describing the codependency between guilty whites and blacks who make being black an accomplishment.
[00:32:12]  You know, that's why it's going to be very hard to dislodge the diversity ideology because at this point, merely being black is an accomplishment.
[00:32:21]  It gets you jobs.
[00:32:23]  You know, all the diversity trainers, their specialty is being black.
[00:32:29]  And you have now pressure in the STEM fields to hire blacks.
[00:32:36]  And because of the academic skills gap, which is vast, about 54% of black eighth graders do not even have basic math skills, basic being defined as partial mastery of eighth grade math expectations.
[00:32:54]  So 54% have not even partial mastery of basic math skills.
[00:32:59]  And yet, we are supposed to believe that the reason, and that gap never closes, you know, the SATs show the same math deficits, the GREs show the same math deficits.
[00:33:13]  Yet, we are supposed to believe that the reason that there is not 12% Black physicists at MIT or at Caltech is because those schools are discriminating against competitively qualified Black math PhDs.
[00:33:31]  It's a complete fiction.
[00:33:34]  So right now you have the guilty whites and you have a certain percentage of Blacks, not everybody.
[00:33:40]  I mean, I've just finished a piece on the race-based attack on classical music, and I have the privilege of talking to some black musicians and conductors who completely reject racial quotas and who are devoted to this magnificent, sublime tradition of Western classical music, regardless of race.
[00:34:01]  So there's plenty of people out there who reject it, but there's also a lot of people who are capitalizing on race being their main accomplishment.
[00:34:11]  And what goes on with the guilty whites?
[00:34:16]  Partly, I think they think that their kid will not be hurt by it, even though we now see, fortunately, it's delicious when one has to savor every moment of Schadenfreude when you have these.
[00:34:29]  I love when their kids don't go to Harvard under these policies they support.
[00:34:32]  I love it.
[00:34:33]  It's so great.
[00:34:33]  Or when, you know, the New York Times opinion editor has to step down for running an op-ed by Tom Cotton because it made the black and female employees at the New York Times feel unsafe.
[00:34:45]  It's just hilarious.
[00:34:46]  And of course, he apologizes and you wonder what goes through his head.
[00:34:50]  So partly I think the whites sort of think that they'll be okay.
[00:34:54]  They got their job.
[00:34:55]  But again, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to sound like a one note here, but I think what is also driving the diversity frenzy is that nobody wants to take a hard look at the dysfunction in the underclass culture.
[00:35:14]  And it's a lot easier to blame white racism for the fact that it's kept off stage, but one is hazily aware of it, that just too many black kids are not being given the culture, the family structure to succeed.
[00:35:33]  And we've seen now the Facebook pictures of Dante's price's gun slinging, gang sign throwing, throwing off.
[00:35:48]  I have seen, this is ubiquitous.
[00:35:50]  You know, Facebook is police officers' best friend.
[00:35:54]  They have whole units that comb social media for these gangbangers because they're all showing off their guns.
[00:36:01]  It's just, it's like a different world, but nobody wants to look at that.
[00:36:07]  And so we are talking about the phony problem of white supremacy in order to turn our eyes away from the breakdown of Black bourgeois culture.
[00:36:18]  And it is a breakdown because, again, this is what I've learned in this classical music piece for City Journal that's coming out.
[00:36:24]  America has a tragic history.
[00:36:26]  For the first half of the 20th century, you had Blacks who were just living up to America's highest ideal, striving to become bourgeois, getting an education, dressing beautifully, you know, at a time when America kept excluding them.
[00:36:46]  And then finally, centuries too late, America acknowledged its grotesque hypocrisy in violating its profound ideals about equality, opened up, passed civil rights laws to the point that now instead of white privilege, you have black privilege in every single mainstream institution.
[00:37:06]  There is not a single mainstream institution that is not preferring blacks over whites at every juncture of its hiring and promotion process.
[00:37:15]  At that moment, when whites finally realized their violations of equality, the black underclass oppositional culture sprung up.
[00:37:27]  And now you have mainstream institutions waiting with open arms and not enough people that are even remotely qualified to be hired and promoted.
[00:37:39]  And Thomas Soule has done some phenomenal work on this.
[00:37:42]  And he's one of the few.
[00:37:44]  And Thomas Soule, where his book, Discrimination and Disparities, it's the best way to approach a liberal or a leftist on this topic, which is, hold on, if there's a disparity, how can you solely blame discrimination, if at all?
[00:37:59]  What about the 90 other thousand prerequisites that go into a human development besides discrimination?
[00:38:06]  Now, that's an elevated discussion that most people are unwilling to have because discrimination is easy because you get to be on the side of the angels.
[00:38:14]  You get to be a good person.
[00:38:15]  Like, oh yeah, everyone discriminates except me.
[00:38:17]  Yeah.
[00:38:17]  Okay.
[00:38:18]  Harvard Westlake village attending, you know, Malibu soccer mom.
[00:38:22]  Like, yeah, you're a perfect person.
[00:38:24]  But the other things to talk about that they don't want to talk about is how many words does an average black child hear at the age of three every day in their home?
[00:38:31]  They hear less than 500 words because single mother, working, whatever, an average white child with two parents hears 3,000 words a day.
[00:38:39]  Well, Piaget to every child psychologist will say the amount of words a child hears from 18 months to three years will be one of the top prerequisites to determine whether or not they'll have a high IQ and have interest in math and science and learning and inquiry and reason.
[00:38:53]  That's a pretty big deal.
[00:38:54]  That's not white supremacy.
[00:38:56]  That's whether or not a father's in the home, whether the family unit is intact.
[00:38:59]  But it's a lot easier.
[00:39:00]  In fact, no one gets power if the black family gets rebuilt.
[00:39:04]  No one does.
[00:39:05]  If the black family gets rebuilt, actually the people in charge get less power.
[00:39:10]  Instead, if you blame discrimination and you could pretend you're on the side of the angels, you become a lot more important.
[00:39:15]  Can you explain one thing, Heather?
[00:39:17]  And I wouldn't even do a very good job of explaining this because we have some 13-year-olds and 14-year-olds listening.
[00:39:22]  Can you explain bourgeois values?
[00:39:24]  I think that would actually be really helpful because you've mentioned it a couple times here.
[00:39:28]  Yeah, it's a respect for order.
[00:39:31]  It's a belief that the human instincts need to be restrained by reason, by above all, not responding to impulses of the moment, not seeking immediate gratification, a future horizon.
[00:39:51]  One of the greatest analyses that has influenced me is by a late social sociologist, I don't know, or maybe political theorist who knows what little niche he fell into at Harvard, Edward Banfield, called The Unheavenly City, a book of essays that was written after the 1960s riots.
[00:40:12]  And it's got some very coy, cheeky titles like rioting for fun and pleasure.
[00:40:20]  So he saw a lot of the 60s riots as to use a current lefty term, performative, and not really related at all to a plea for social justice.
[00:40:31]  But what we're seeing today is just sheer opportunism.
[00:40:34]  You know, you drive up, as we saw last summer, and it's going on now with your U-Haul and you loot the store, and yet you're supposed to be held up as a civil rights hero.
[00:40:46]  B.S.
[00:40:47]  I mean, it's just ridiculous.
[00:40:48]  But he talked about not on a race basis, on a class basis, that one of the distinguishing features between an upper class culture and a lower class culture is the degree of future orientation.
[00:41:02]  And people in upper classes, whether it's a traditional aristocracy or just a meritocracy, teach their children and have the ability to put off immediate gratification for long-term ends.
[00:41:17]  And we see this most perfectly, and at the lower end, you have people responding impulsively, and that drives criminal behavior.
[00:41:25]  You know, they want something, they get it, they don't think through what are the consequences.
[00:41:30]  And the classic example today of that future orientation is Asian culture.
[00:41:36]  Asian Americans are whooping everybody's ass in the United States because the parents are demanding that the kids don't go out, hang out, you know, gangbang, but stay home, do their homework, learn two instruments, focus,
[00:41:52]  you know, maniacally on getting into the Ivy League, and that restrains people's irrational appetites in order to achieve something later down the road.
[00:42:08]  Bourgeois values is a respect for other people.
[00:42:11]  It's not littering.
[00:42:12]  It's not making loud noise.
[00:42:14]  It's not, you know, keeping your neighbors up at night or driving down the road with your car stereo blasting out.
[00:42:22]  A respect for parental authority.
[00:42:24]  Things that became mocked with the rise of the countercultural generation as just fuddy-duddy.
[00:42:34]  But in fact, a respect for law and order is a prerequisite to everything else.
[00:42:40]  And, you know, to repeat a theme we've been driving home, Charlie, we are putting all of that at risk.
[00:42:47]  I just can't even imagine what is going to happen.
[00:42:51]  You say people don't really get why should I care about rising crime?
[00:42:58]  If the chauvin jury does not convict on most, if not all, counts, it will come to your neighborhood.
[00:43:06]  It will come.
[00:43:07]  That's correct.
[00:43:07]  Yes, it'll be beyond anything we've ever seen.
[00:43:10]  Yes, sir.
[00:43:10]  It'll make Rodney King look like a walk in the park.
[00:43:14]  Right.
[00:43:14]  So, in closing, Heather, I'm going to ask you an unusual question, but I try to do this with all my guests.
[00:43:21]  What gives you hope right now?
[00:43:23]  I actually have, for the first time, thought that perhaps the attack on whites as endemically racist, the escalation of this phony narrative will reach so absurd a point that maybe people will say, I'm not taking it any longer.
[00:43:45]  And, you know, this is very difficult terrain because, as you say, it's asymmetrical.
[00:43:52]  The left gets to talk about white this and white that all the time.
[00:43:56]  It is an absolute reflex at this point.
[00:43:59]  All the New York Times or the Washington Post or the LA Times needs to do to discredit a person or an institution 100% is to say it's white.
[00:44:09]  And yet, you know, that we're supposed to believe that hate speech is talking about border control and that only whites are capable of being racist.
[00:44:23]  If you are then say, okay, well, how should whites respond?
[00:44:29]  Then you become accused of playing, you know, white racial politics.
[00:44:34]  But at some point, one has to ask, why not?
[00:44:39]  If whites are being characterized on the basis of group guilt on the basis of their skin color, and let me just say they're going to come back and say white privilege, you know, how many of you were followed around in a convenience store by the clerk for shoplifting.
[00:44:57]  Yes, that is humiliating if you're innocent, but the reason that goes on, the reason those types of assumptions go on, is driven by the underlying reality of Black crime.
[00:45:09]  The reality is Black privilege today in mainstream institutions, not white privilege.
[00:45:15]  At some point, you know, whites have to say we're not taking this any longer.
[00:45:20]  But I will say this, and that may be coming sooner than I ever would have thought.
[00:45:26]  I will say this on the other side of the ledger, sort of on the more pessimistic side.
[00:45:31]  This is what needs to happen.
[00:45:34]  The driving force in our world today is the fact that there are continuing socioeconomic racial disparities between blacks and whites.
[00:45:43]  The left can point to, you know, household wealth or rates of incarceration or rates of admission to MIT, and they're not equal.
[00:45:53]  They are not proportional.
[00:45:54]  As long as the only allowable explanation for that lack of racial proportionality is bias, what I call the myth of bias, the left wins.
[00:46:04]  The left wins.
[00:46:05]  They will continue tearing down every institution.
[00:46:09]  What has to happen is people have to swallow hard, get some courage, and talk about the academic skills gap, the parenting gap, the behavior gap that is driving those disparities, and reject completely the white supremacy argument.
[00:46:27]  The musical gap, what a young black kid is listening to at age six or a young white kid is a huge difference.
[00:46:32]  Thomas Sowell has written extensively about it.
[00:46:34]  Diversity delusion, war on cops.
[00:46:36]  Heather, thank you for joining.
[00:46:38]  You're just, you're special.
[00:46:40]  And I want everyone to buy your books and to listen to more of what you have to say.
[00:46:44]  You have so much wisdom and courage, which is so rare.
[00:46:46]  And so we have to have you back on again soon.
[00:46:48]  Thank you.
[00:46:49]  I congratulate you, Charlie.
[00:46:50]  Thank you, Charlie.
[00:46:53]  Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
[00:46:55]  Email us your questions, freedom at charliekirk.com.
[00:46:58]  And please consider supporting us at charliekirk.com/slash support.
[00:47:01]  God bless you.
[00:47:02]  Speak to you soon.
[00:47:06]  For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.
[00:47:10]  com.