Clif High - Clif interviews Steve Nico Williams! Raw interview!

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July 28, 2017 - Clif High

01:26:00

Clif interviews Steve Nico Williams! Raw interview!

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	And we'll start.
	Okay, this is Cliff High.
	This is a repeat of an interview, or just a perfect interview.
	Damn, I was so pissed.
	It was just great.
	Interview with Steve Nico Williams yesterday.
	This is the redo because I um uh bolloxed up all of the sound stuff.
	And we think we've I think I've got it now, and we'll give it another shot.
	And I'll I'll not ask him for a third repeat.
	Anyway, Steve uh Nico Williams is the CEO of um Populist, which is a uh really cool space.
	And good morning uh to you or good afternoon to you, Steve.
	How are you?
	Hi, hi, hi Cliff, how are you?
	I'm doing fine.
	And uh hopefully it'll be a lot easier on you today.
	Uh it was easy on me yesterday, so it's gonna I'm gonna have to work today to get all of that stuff back out of you.
	It was just a just a stellar interview yesterday.
	Uh why don't we start with your first um uh uh historical like uh epiphany moment about data?
	I mean, and just pick up from there.
	Okay, um well, so basically, um as I was playing yesterday, um my foray into data was basically um looking at um financial data sets um that were contained in the company's house in the UK, and that is basically a place where all government um basically where all companies file the end of year returns and annual accounts.
	So you were you were actually looking at at deep government data at that sense, correct?
	Yeah, um companies but stored in a um government facility, basically, yeah.
	Yeah.
	And so uh it was um uh that that began you on your journey that led to this interview yesterday and again today, correct?
	That's correct.
	Yeah, so basically um it basically had all the um annual accounts, profit and loss, um the debitors, creditors in their accounts, and I just basically wanted to know how um how companies um become basically so successful and basically sell for um basic the process of actually um the selling of a company.
	So that's what I was actually looking into the data at the time then before I got deeply involved into understanding the intricate details of um data itself and how it and it plays a role in um in the world basically today.
	Right.
	So so in essence it was really a collision in your mind at that time uh between value and data, because you had just come across a uh I can't remember the name of the company you told me, but it had sold for some whopping huge amount of millions, and that got your attention.
	Yeah, so um yeah, so basically, um like I said, um I was I was always fascinated with um Financial Times and looking at companies and their um price earnings ratio.
	I did read a book um before based um by um Jim Slater, Zulu Principles, which gave me uh um a basic idea of how companies work and valuation, and that is what basically more or less gave me that that the um the interest into looking at data.
	So I basically started looking to the data at companies house and um realized that the same data is what the other credit uh aggregators use, um the data aggregate is used to um supply to other companies.
	And uh these data aggregators would be on the order of um those people that would place valuations on companies like Moody's or some of these others and and and any other kind of aggregator that may have a use for these giant clumps of data.
	Yes, exactly.
	So um Moody's Standing the Paws, Dunham Brad Street, Experian, all those type of um credit re credit reference agencies.
	And um I I I understood that at the time then the only way they can get that data in that format because they had it in um in like spreadsheets themselves and um the company's house had it in PDFs and it was basically free to view there.
	Well you were you pay some money, but I mean it was not as expensive as if you were taking it from the credit aggregate aggregators.
	So um I knew that at the time then that they're inputting these values into the spreadsheet, and um it was not possible to for me to do my full in-depth analysis how I wanted to do it on those companies because of the cost.
	So I would basically use um fifty fifty to sixty pounds every week to go in and look at annual returns of companies and just basically find little bits of data that um that I could build a big bigger picture with.
	So um so I believe a few years passed and um XBRL was introduced um which is extensive extensible business reporting language.
	So it is a um a business language that is used to um make um values and um elements with inside those uh financial accounts more accessible to um to people that want to basically do um analytics or or um or what or analysis on those um financial records.
	And in that sense it's sort of like um HTML is the markup language for displaying to um humans on the web, and so uh XBRL is the extraction language is sort of the uh an opposite reverse, so to speak, a machine extraction part of it uh for your um uh business terms.
	Yes, yes, so um yeah, so um it's basically the um the language that is in instead of being on the um PDF sort of format, it's uh it's a um language that you can extract the financial um the financial elements of an of an account from it.
	So um I noticed that this is an opportunity to um get on the um level playing field with those aggregators, so hence why I started building the um XBRL um extraction tool for um extracting um these elements from um these documents which um I counted which would which numbers were about one point five one one thousand five hundred elements over two million companies,
	which we were basically uh um after building the software, we were um actually taking that data in real time into our databases.
	Cool.
	And so you um uh as you said yesterday you'd gone through the um uh the stack or the heap approach with MongoDB and ended up with uh SQL Server, correct?
	Yeah, so um at the beginning process um we were into this sort of um big big um this we were in it we were basically in um into the c into the um the the zone of I I don't know what the term is but um it was around that period of big data and the ways to store big data storage and Mongo was um what was the preferred no SQL database to store but upon using Mongo I realized that um it was
	becoming very memory intensive on the server and as it was a hobby what I was actually doing at the time then it was not um it was not it was not benefiting me in a sense so I kind of switched from a no SQL to a more structured sort of database Azure Microsoft Azure which gave me a better more pricing and allowed me to um store data the way I wanted to instead of JSON array but into um into columns and cells which was easy for me to um carry out analysis on
	those data sets.
	Well it's also more business like in the sense of ledger like at that level as opposed to the JSON database set.
	JSON by the way guys is uh JSON it's uh JavaScript object notation uh it's used for storing uh structured data.
	Uh Mongo is a database that runs on what's known as DOM the um uh document object model and so it is very intensive because it has to lift a whole document up into RAM in order to get at any given element and if you've got an individual document that's got uh 1500 1500 data elements and you've got a lot of those you're gonna get get your RAM really cluttered really quick where a SQL server only presents you that data you request out of the database itself which remains on the disk and so it's very efficient.
	So basically what Steve did was to run into a convergence of himself and the temporal universe because he was right there when big data really started taking off with the reduction in price of storage and the development of these tools.
	And he sort of fell into this whole universe that was created, and he mixed about with big data and these various databases and ended up with a huge hobby that was probably sucking a lot of money.
	of money out of him at the time and that he just couldn't let go and that's where we are today he's still chewing on that critter or is a bit it's eased a bit now so yeah but we're still there um so yeah I mean um so um what we what we um what I found from the data um so after compiling the data um we started um looking at other data sets and crossing them over but we tended to use the uh the the more financial records,
	which we had those elements to focus more on those ones at the time then to um cross them with other algorithms with credit reference algorithms in a sense creating our own um credit reference sort of module and um competing with those guys.
	So like I mentioned yesterday, the um but the benefit of that was we no longer needed to pay um companies like sta um Equifax, Dun and Brad Street, the one pound that was required for every single document.
	So um the example I gave um yesterday was one million one pound over two million companies, we would have paid near enough at least a million or more, even at a discount rate, which which with which for any um entrepreneur or anyone um doing research, which I would have called it at the time then, I still call it research when I'm looking at um different data sets, um a really expensive habit, and I basically didn't have the money to um pursue that type of habit then.
	So um building other extraction tool basically put me on the level playing field with the corporates, and hence why I started looking into um different types of um algorithms to um find solutions to the existing problems in the financial world.
	Sure.
	Let's also stop for a second as we're gradually working our way to a description of how uh popularises and uh provide a larger picture here of what you're actually dealing with.
	Because as a young lad, you're walking along, you get gobsmacked right in the face by the valuation equaling data and see data as a valuable thing that can be extracted and dealt with.
	You develop a tool uh set to do this, and um it's just you and a bunch of your mates in a sort of hobby sort of mucking about, but it's costing you real money, so you decide, well, maybe we'd better make it pay for itself.
	How can we do that?
	And you start thinking about these things because you're still hooked on the research aspect of it all.
	And in the meantime, the world around you develops um very much Doctor Who like as these things uh such as big data and cheap terabytes of storage arrive to support you.
	And then you start looking at this from a more mature aspect in the sense of, okay, we've got this data, and now we can put it back.
	We we had to take it from the spreadsheets, which were a ledger format, go through the PDFs, go through all of the XBRL extraction to put it back into SQL Server, which we don't really look at, but we can make it display any way we want.
	So we've decided to display it back in this business format.
	And so there you go, you've got all your business data laid out, and um the Eureka moment or the epiphany moment starts to come up upon you.
	And you were telling me about that yesterday, and I've had those myself, especially about big data.
	So uh I really uh empathized with uh where your destiny went bad and big data got hold of you.
	Well, yeah, big data can take you off the course of where where where you where you think you're actually going and it could um um put you back on the course and is that that's exactly what it did.
	I mean, after getting my head around it, I mean, um just to clear things up, um when I say we um I more or less speak as um present um present sort of tone now with the group around me now, but at the time then it was just myself that um created the extraction tool just by myself.
	Um now I do I d I tend to say we as in the whole team and everybody as we're working today forward.
	But um yeah, um it it it it became it became um that Eureka moment when I I managed to um put the puzzles together in my brain and when I basically saw the whole world at large and how it actually works, then um we we had the the the light switched on and then I basically I knew from there that okay um Steve don't be don't try and be a jack of all trades.
	What you need to do is focus on the area which you've found a solution and basically sell this data.
	So that was my initial um my initial um foray into selling data.
	So I was basically I I had um found it found a solution, found a way to create algorithm to find these companies that um required a form of cash flow, and the people that were gonna finance these type of companies um were the banks at the time.
	Sure.
	So those were sort of your customers at the time, your potential client base would have been the the banks at all and you figured that you had a uh better way to do what they were already doing at that stage.
	Now, let me describe, for instance, that these 1,500 data elements you're picking out would allow one, if one were in the business of being a hedge fund or something, they might use that data to try and find real winners.
	On the other hand, banks might try to use that same 1,500 data elements to find a good, solid business that was in some financial strait as a potential client to give loans to.
	So that level of discrimination, the 1500 data elements, allowed you to...
	you to uh extract uh and look at either end of the picture or the middle anywhere in between and and at your end your focus was on aha these people are getting themselves into a situation where you can tell just by the way in which the spending goes the invoices are coming in and all of that they're gonna need a loan.
	And brilliant thinking.
	I mean, just, you know, most people miss that because they try and go the hedge fund route and look for the real winner sort of things.
	Right.
	But this is the bread and butter.
	This is where banks make their living.
	Well, that's right.
	And it is a route that the approach I took is the route the route source in terms of how they would start.
	So I kind of analyzed the whole process of what they would do in terms of the bank in terms of they probably would send out various messages or mails to these companies and go knocking on their door, knocking on the businesses, business owners door one by one because there was there is no other solution in place at the moment.
	And basically just at random chance asking these guys with the little data that they have if they required invoice finance or anything in the site.
	So, I mean, creating this target data set was a major sort of innovation in the sense of...
	Sorry.
	My bad.
	I need to plug my charger in.
	Sorry about this.
	That's all right.
	That's fine.
	I just totally forgot.
	Reality intrudes and it was my software hardware screw up yesterday that made us redo this.
	Let me see if I got that in.
	I'm on.
	Something like this.
	I think I got that in.
	Hold on a minute.
	I'm on.
	sorry can we pause for a second so sure yeah no worry I'll put a pause on it right now so we're good yeah we are okay cool no more interruptions all right so you were you were talking about the um uh um uh discrimination of vision you had with the data insofar as this and then you'd run up against the banks they were probably also doing this only the banks had to send out all their foot soldiers to pound on the doors and get these people to say hey do you want a loan and that's what that's where we left off.
	Yeah, so I kind of worked out that it's a very expensive process for them to do that, and they're probably employing hundreds of people to go around knocking on doors.
	And if I can limit the amount of people that are going around and give them a target data set, then they would just basically ring up these guys, offset it against the contact details they got there, ask them, guys, do you need factoring?
	And likelihood was yes, because basically what I did with the data was not just produce targeted data sets, went back in time with the company's house and looked at those companies that are taking our invoice finance already anyway so what I basically was doing was proving the concept and the algorithm works um because um the companies that fit that type of model um are the ones that had taken finance in the past.
	Sure, let me intrude for a second and tell people that when you're doing deep data modeling, you create your database, you have a hypothesis about what you're going to seek.
	Obviously, if you think that in the future what you're going to seek is going to show up in the data, the likelihood of it already existing in the data in some form is pretty high.
	So what you do is you go back and look at the data and mine it for the model you want to find and then you can use that what you actually find about that to fine-tune what you're looking at.
	looking for in the future.
	So Steve was able to look at those companies that needed financing now that he knew were taking financing and using their criteria, their existing state of being, uh, as his um metric.
	He was therefore able to make sets around that that would allow him to extract other companies that also were in that same state of being.
	Exactly.
	So basically uh a scientific method that we I used basically for that was a method called cluster analysis, and um basically that kind of grouped the size of the um companies and broke and split them up into various groups that fitted with each bank's um criteria.
	So what I had there was I can basically see um the size of loans each bank was given to a particular group of invoice invoice um invoice sellers, basically, potentially and potential customers.
	So I would create a records um for those targeted, so I actually drilled into a more targeted sort of data set.
	So I mean um so that was going um alright for for the meantime.
	Um and I just really felt that um I can do more to more with that data set and look into other um other solutions and it to be honest, there was a lot of competitors that are were selling a lot of um targeted data were selling data to these banks,
	but um so I was kind of like um get I uh it was kind of like a saturated market where I I it would have took me longer to prove myself and through the results than I wanted to wait around and try and do.
	Sure.
	As you as you were developing your tools, you ran into the same situation in uh competitors' companies.
	Some of them may have had a slight first mover advantage, as you say it was already a saturated market, and that's when you started getting your um building pressure for your second epiphany moment, correct?
	Yes, correct.
	So yeah, so um get into that now.
	So um I basically um I basically thought to myself um I wanted I I really what's stopping me from actually um creating creating a element of what the bank are doing at the moment, so creating the invoice finance sort of um um um platform or business and basically um trying to actually um do what the banks are doing and do it myself.
	So uh I started looking into um the the development of the invoice factoring company, um the creation of one, and I approached um various companies and other people to see if they wanted to get involved.
	First of all, was um the insurance company, which is Ule Hermes, and um basically they said to me, Um, do I have a million pounds for the credit insurance?
	And I said um no.
	So basically said they we can't help you there.
	So I mean I kind of hit a roadblock there in terms of um the capital that is needed at the time then to start uh uh invoice factoring business.
	So let's also stop for a second and look at the the milieu, the excuse me, the the world in which you um uh you found yourself with this.
	Not only did you hit the insurance wall, that insurance wall was one of the deliberate barriers to entry that's put there by banks to keep that business to themselves.
	And so they do this all the way along the line.
	We've seen this as a pattern of the activity.
	The fiat banks are dying, and this is exactly why you and I and everybody else in crypto space is all excited and doing stuff, is because these big dinosaurs are getting out of the way.
	However, you ran right smack into uh some of the walls that those dinosaurs had placed to keep this level of business to themselves, because as I mentioned yesterday, factoring, which is the ability to take an invoice from a client and as a promise for uh uh debt and give them loan, that factoring is twenty-eight percent of global banking profits.
	Uh so it is a huge thing they would want to protect.
	And yeah, and apparently they said, well, let's just uh smack this kid right up the head with uh with the insurance and be done with him.
	Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, um like it were they're probably doing that to um uh myself and others that were trying to get into a market that they're basically trying to maintain basically for themselves.
	So I mean, um it was it was a blow.
	Um after after months and months months of research and thinking finally um everything else is in place apart from just the credit insurance.
	I mean, without insurance, you're basically like, you can't really proceed forward.
	So, I mean, I kind of left it for a bit and started to look at the data in more detail.
	So, crossing other data sets, as I mentioned yesterday, crossing housing data, land registry data.
	So, I did find a few other gems in terms of companies in recession, repossession sort of market, which is still an open picking field.
	I'll get to that another time.
	And I just really thought that there is something in crossing data sets, which kind of opened my eyes a bit more further into tightening up the model in terms of what we have now.
	So, what we did was, so what we basically did or put together was that if we could get the data in the first place and we can sell it to them, we can find a solution around it.
	the insurance aspect that is blocking us from that to entry to the market.
	So um like I said I left it alone.
	I went I started looking around other types of ways and other platforms how they work and this was probably the emergence of um the fintech sort of um industry where you have um companies like market invoice and saw their model and I decided that what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna try and sell my solution to companies like market invoice.
	So I I got on the f I got on the computer, I emailed um market invoice I I emailed um a few other companies that were in the fintech space and um I don't know what it is when um really no one really wants to look at anything they they're quite content with what they've got.
	It's called not invented here.
	I remember that myself and and it and it's just it's just off putting so I just decided that um I'm gonna I'm gonna go and look for something totally different.
	So hence I started.
	This would have been about two years ago.
	Yeah, this was about two years, two years ago, coming up to probably about one year and six months now.
	So coming from the two years into a six month short period, then I started looking into.
	Well, basically what it was is my friend that basically said he's trading Bitcoin.
	And I thought, what the hell is Bitcoin?
	What are you trading?
	I've dabbled in I've dabbled in in stocks and shares in the past um I've made money lost money it's not really a thing I want to do I can't control the outcome of a price of a shares there's so many different factors that are and it's rigged they can see you betting against them but you can't see them.
	Yeah and um yeah that's right and it I I got stressed out from doing that.
	So I didn't when he said Bitcoin trading I just thought okay um how long is this gonna last and for the funny for the the funny thing was he's not really uh a financial guy but he got the hang of this trading so it made me look into the why he has so much interest into it and then from there I started um attending meetups.
	So one of the first meetups that I went to was a meetup called Coin Scrum.
	Which is quite famous, people.
	Yeah, I mean, Paul, a guy that runs it called Paul Davis, a very nice guy.
	He gets loads of speakers, a load of companies that are making products in the cryptosphere, and they speak to us and tell us what they're doing.
	So that first one I went to was a pub quiz, and it was basically a quiz that had questions about Ethereum, about the DAO episode.
	So we're kind of in that realm of the DAO collapsing, not too far from what happened there.
	And it got me thinking in terms of these guys were building something, using smart contracts, and they almost got there, but then something went wrong, a hacker got in, and maybe they didn't set their code right.
	But what could have happened if, they had built This system out and it worked.
	So it started making me think like, oh, wait a minute, there is something here.
	So then that's when I started saying to myself, it went the UI comment just then, it was a it was a fault of oh, I got these data, then I can put this data into the blockchain without thinking or knowing how um how the blockchain works.
	Well, you can't put data in existing data, it has to be real-time data that is going basically in the city.
	Yeah, that's that's um point out to people that the blockchain is a virtual computer running uh in what is called cloud space, and so storage costs and computation costs are um equal and they're pricey, uh and so you wouldn't want to store lots of data there because it would just cost you a huge amount of money and it wouldn't be worth it.
	No, you you you'd be basically doing um triple or even ten times what I was doing when I was using MongoDB.
	So I don't think anyone wants to even think about trying that.
	Um it's not really practical as well, anyway.
	So I mean um so what we um what I what I basically done was to re reevaluate the plan I was thinking around the blockchain and thought, okay, I can't put all this the um basically the whole 1005 data points into it, which is not possible.
	But what I can do is I can start creating these types of um smart agreements or smart forms where I will basically give to um companies that if they're gonna open up trade accounts with themselves, they can store this data on the blockchain, and then I can use their the um amounts raised or the debt is or the invoices there to offset that against these um financial annual counts in the XBRL format,
	and then basically have a real-time um accounting system that measures the um debtors and creditors.
	But the only flaw there was um it wouldn't be precise, it would only give you indication of the value uh of the um transactions that I would have received from the invoices, but they could have been a lot more transactions that wouldn't pass my it would have made it um uh although we would have had some information, it wouldn't have been too viable to um use that information on um sort of um wider scale and uh um for a um more accurate analysis.
	Sure, it could have been uh a big you'd never know how big the hole was you were missing, and it could skew your results not knowing that.
	That's correct, so and it could open up for um areas of for fraud and people take advantage of it when we're trying to oppose it.
	So I just it it then it dawned on me that wait a minute, why am I not using this whole technology to build an invoice factoring platform?
	The smart contracts can do the transactions um autonomously.
	Um also um decent in a decentralized manner, the trust element made sense where um there's no rigging of the auction, the settlement is real time, and the URICA moment came there again.
	And I just thought to myself, oh I mean, I mean I'm in um I'm I'm right bang on time.
	You're in the sweet spot temporally, correct.
	You were that person.
	Yeah.
	That's well, let's stop for a second here and and I'll give my perspective on this real quick and provide a bigger background here for populist.
	So um invoice factoring is a huge business globally.
	It provides the liquidity for most of the planets, uh small to medium enterprises.
	These are companies with 500 or fewer enterprise prize or employees, and these enterprises usually have 50 or less, and the vast majority have 20 or less.
	So these are the real mom and pop and uh and the people that do things, and they need to have the ability to float from month to month, pay their employees and not go out of business because they're waiting on somebody to pay them, and invoice uh factoring is that um uh is that float, and up until the invention of populist, or up until the invention of cryptocurrencies, we've had no vehicle whereby you could do invoice factoring without involving yourself in banks.
	Banks have uh excuse me, all kinds of barriers to interest uh barriers to um getting into this business to keep others out, and so they charge just huge fees as well as uh staggeringly nasty interest uh rates such that someone might lose as a small business, you might lose approximately 30% of your um uh expected income just trying to cover the float.
	So you take 70% and the rest of it gets eaten up in the bank's profit and and fees, and uh, but you're able to survive, but you're barely surviving, so it's very parasitical.
	And so in my data sets, I've been um uh watching for the prescient uh descriptions within crypto space, and I saw one that was real relating to factoring.
	And I knew from my own experience as a small business owner uh how vital factoring is and how usurous it is from the bank's viewpoint, and so I also knew this was a very ripe area for disintermediation because there are so many people on the um selling of the invoice side, uh, and also to some extent on the on the financing side when private money is used that are getting screwed by the people in the middle.
	So if you can get them out, you can lower costs all over, everybody will make um a lot more money, and uh the beauty that I okay.
	So I'm examining my data.
	I see that oh look, factoring is a space is going to open up in crypto space, it's got huge legs going out hundreds of years, it's gonna be a giant area, and we see within this uh factor crypto space the concept.
	I I I won't go into details, take too long to describe it, but the concept of super dominance will arrive.
	Super dominance is when you have someone like um Google that comes on out and Google gets 85% of all search requests and all ad revenues, and the next guy down, he only gets seven percent, and the guy after him may only get three percent and so on.
	So the there's a giant gap between the super dominant player and the next one, and this is what we're gonna see arise within uh the factoring space.
	And in this case, it won't be because of barriers to entry.
	The data sets describe it as being one of efficiency and um a mutual harmony in the sense that the uh superdominant player will offer real uh solutions to the people that that have real problems.
	And so I'm out looking in crypto space, and then uh uh because of the way that the language around populist um emerged in the sources that I use, it was one of the first ones to show up, and then I delved into it and I had my aha moment in the sense that yeah, these are some serious players here.
	It's um uh perspective is is exactly in line, harmoniously meshing with the temporal reality we've got now and the need to undo the bank's uh lock on factoring.
	And so this was why I started writing about populist within the uh reports, had never had any contact with uh populist, the team, had not met uh Steve or any of his uh associates, had no intention of actually ever acquiring any populist coins or anything myself, simply because that's the way I do business.
	I don't um preload myself with emotional uh bias towards anything, and ended up seeing the um the populous um uh token for what it was, and then a whole lot of drama and brouha ensued that led to Steve and myself meeting up here.
	Uh but Steve's got the um he's got the space by the tail.
	So he's on top of this giant tiger, and he's got some really effective tools, in my opinion, because he's um pulling them from the uh business extraction language viewpoint and from deep data research viewpoint, not approaching this as a uh, oh hey, look, there's a lot of money to be made over here.
	How can we cut ourselves some of it?
	He came into it saying, Oh, look, look at all these problems, let's go see what we can solve.
	And isn't this cool?
	I can use all my data to do it.
	Pretty much, right?
	Correct, exactly.
	And nail on the head.
	That's right.
	I mean, um, so most people come into the space thinking there's money.
	Um that was you're right, it's totally the opposite as we were thinking in the sense that um we're coming to this place to solve problems, and they basically say um a business should focus on the problems first before it focus on the money, and the money will follow by equally the money is important as well in terms of um growth and revenue.
	And um, yeah, so we we basically looked at a platform.
	We basically look and said, okay, yeah, this this is a this populace can be built to um not only not only um be the uh first move in the industry but also break down certain um barriers to entry, which is uh globalization, which is um stopping Edwin from participating in invoice factoring.
	So that was one of our core features of the platform was to allow anyone to trade with anyone throughout from any country to basically any country.
	So a guy from India can trade with a guy in Denmark, and um with with the lowest requirement of capital needed.
	So we we made sure that it is as small as it is because not everyone has 50,000 pounds, which is required in um in these um final marketplaces to participate.
	So we lower the barriers to entry on cost as well, which is basically around $100 to start, or even less.
	It just has to make sense for the um the um the gas fee of the smart contracts.
	So you don't want to be paying for something and you're not making the money.
	So when I use the term hundred dollars or 100 pounds, it could even be less as long as you're making the um margin after you deduct the gas fees and everything else that um that cost to um run this type of um auction process basically.
	Okay, let's let's start for a second.
	I'll clarify some of this.
	The the um Steve's talking about running smart contracts on Ethereum.
	Uh the Ethereum network, as I said, is this giant virtual machine that ultimately somebody's got to pay the electricity for.
	And so they built into the Ethereum the idea of gas, uh, and you fuel up your contract and it runs and eats up gas, and somebody's gotta pay for it, and these gas things ultimately go through to become Ethereum coins, which ultimately can be turned into fiat.
	Steve's also talking about the idea of a huge level of disintermediation.
	Because prior to uh the cryptos coming along and popular rising, there's been um the banks as the uh gatekeepers, and after a while with the the invoicing business, they said, Well, why should we use our money?
	And so they would get all these other people's money to pool together, charge that pool a whole lot of fees to to make it into an investment vehicle for factoring for buying invoices, and then it would charge fees and interest rates on both sides, and the bank was growing fat happy in the middle and using other people's money to do it.
	And you had certain again barriers to entry because the banks wanted to keep this business to themselves, they would say it say, Oh no, you can't touch this for under 50,000 pounds, you gotta that's your minimum buy-in, and you gotta conform to our rules and stuff.
	And what Steve has done is to eliminate all of that, chop all of the costs of these bloated bankers out of the middle of it, and allow pools of capital or individuals of capital to uh uh participate globally in buying invoices globally on a uh trust machine system, which is these uh smart contract auctions that run on Ethereum.
	So we're talking about a major level of global market disintermediation that is exactly parallel in its own space to what we're seeing with um uh Veritasium and some of these other cryptos that are just taking on different spaces with this disintermediation model, correct?
	Yes, exactly.
	So um so along with the um baking bar breaking down the barriers to entry, we'll also focus on um cost and efficiency as well.
	So um what we notice in in these contracts in the first place, which is kind of hidden is um when these customers are actually signed up for this um factoring process, they're not they're not aware, firstly, that they're gonna be end up paying around um 10 to 15,000 just initial agreement fee.
	That'd be fifteen thousand pounds, correct?
	Yeah, um depending on what um country you are, it could be ten, it could be um ten thousand pounds to fifteen thousand pounds or ten thousand dollars to fifteen thousand dollars, and um I mean um that quite that kind of upset me in a sense where um if you're gonna if you're gonna why do you need such a large fee um it when you when you are already like as a bank is already receiving the revenue that they use to cover the overheads as well.
	So they're just basically adding layers and layers of um fees for agree for agreement fees, which really shouldn't be there.
	So we removed that from the um from the platform as well.
	So we don't we don't charge a great agreement fee or arrangement fee for setting things up, and the and the second thing was um efficiency as well.
	So I mean um getting this whole process done after being accepted onto the program by the banks or or having that, it then takes a process of um if it for example I use um um other platforms, you'd you'd have to have some form of trade or someone buying it And the settlement mechanism for them to agree that um purchase of the invoice before you get your funds.
	So the smart contract has really helped in that in that sense where once once the auction uh or the crowd sale has been completed, the funds are immediately um sent to the um wallet of the invoice seller.
	And um and that is real time basically.
	So the other element that we had to overcome was basically um the stability in in terms of the the volatil volatil volatility of um actual cryptocurrencies themselves.
	So there is no way on earth that we could have just used Bitcoin or Ethereum to trade invoices because in this type of market, um the margins are are very small in terms of um one percent to five percent starting from and if you're using the the swings in um cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin are swinging like that.
	Sure, but wiped that out in a minute.
	Why so it was unrealistic that um we could have just gone into this with um um your your um your popular your popular coin and say yeah, we've got an invoice factoring platform and this is what we're doing, we're trading in crypto.
	So anyone else who's saying that they're using crypto, they need to have a who think of when you're loaning items or or whatever you're doing financing, it w I mean it's not gonna happen when your the margins are um the interest that you're gonna be charging against your loan in the real world, it's not gonna work really.
	So what we introduced was a PEC type of system.
	So we created a PEG token called POKENS.
	So I mean um it's not like the game, Pokemon.
	It is uh the name is derived from pegged and token, a combination of both.
	So what we use what we did were we took a standard approach to say, okay, any investor that invests funds, whether it's fiat um at the time then, which we um use as our our base example, they would deposit funds, they will be issued tokens.
	Those tokens will reflect the funds that are that they've deposited and then they can use those um tokens to trade with inside the um the platform against the invoices.
	That's uh be clear for the audience here that by using POKENS, these pegged tokens, the you're forming a uh you're just intermediating the um the actual capital and the sloshing around that's going on in the currency, whether it's fiat or whatever, and the use of the uh token in the factoring business itself, because of course you don't want to try and sell uh buy or sell an invoice if you're buying and selling it in uh currency that is fluctuating more than the maybe even the invoice itself is worth.
	That's it, yeah.
	You might end up having the guy having more than money than um he required for the invoice, or you can have um or him getting less than what he required and saying, Oh, I didn't agree to this.
	This is the percentage that we agreed to.
	Why is it 10% um short then?
	It's just like uh people going abroad and they they use a credit card to purchase and they come back and find out no that thing didn't actually cost you the 90 euros they said because the credit card company added such a huge fee and ended up costing you 130 y euros, and you don't know that until after the fact.
	That's it.
	But so this is really another cool innovation that you came up with, which is this a way of buffering the uh invoice trading platform from the uh swings of any currency because of going through the peg token approach, which was designed basically as we might think of as a barrier to the exact uh issue of sloshing uh back and forth with the um uh the currencies themselves.
	Uh but it also uh offers you great security advantage.
	Uh because you're not dealing in anything that's gonna be a target and has its own potential weaknesses like Ethereum or or Bitcoin or whatever.
	That's right.
	So the Pokens, so what we said, okay, um, so as you just said, um we we have some element of control of the Pokens inside the platform, but then we gave it the same features as um Ethereum and Bitcoin, so you can actually remove the Pokens from the platform to external wallet, and then they just become like your um like your Tether coin or any other type of stable token.
	No, those uh excuse me, are these uh ERC20s?
	Yes, correct, yes, ERC20 um standard.
	Or you were thinking about moving to the ERC twenty three standards?
	Yeah, yes, we are we are at the moment.
	Um that is a discussion where I'm having with um Z, which is one of our top facility developers in terms of ERC twenty three, yeah.
	Um because basically um they can um uh if I'm clearly correct uh correct me if I'm wrong, but they can recognize the address to whether it's been sent.
	they're safer for noobs, basically what is it amounts to is that uh you know I've heard of people that have uh in inadvertently sent ERC twenties off and they've disappeared because they've sent them to something that that couldn't accept uh could accept it but couldn't do anything with it.
	And so the ERC twenty-three token, it's kind of a way, guys, of making cryptocurrencies that are smart enough on their own to say, no, you're sending me someplace I don't want to go.
	Think that over.
	Yeah, and the new standard on the ERC twenty-three I liked a lot.
	There was some really good thinking about that there.
	Uh uh the issue with the um uh the ERC twenty tokens and the um uh the use of them from my viewpoint is entirely uh uh self-enlightened interest on the part of businesses to move over to simply because it makes their customers happier because it's a layer of protection for people that don't know what they're doing.
	That's right, yeah.
	So I mean um yeah, it uh it's like uh um safety mechanism built into the into the token itself, which is it's good for those guys.
	Um we always hear the stories like I send it to this account is not the right um send it to this wallet, it's not the right address.
	So yeah, basically it clears up that as well, as you just said.
	So um we we use those and we get the um we give the uh we give the um the the peg token the poken a life of its own when it goes outside of the platform.
	So not going into too much, but um one of the one of the thoughts that I had when I created the poke was in the near future, in in five to ten years' time, I hope to see Pokemons being used on e-commerce websites as a stable sort of um currency that um traders or vendors won't be too worried about the fluctuation of buying and selling something on their website.
	So if they have a lot in essence these Pokens will be backed by the sheer volume of the invoice business that's being done through the populous platform, correct?
	Yeah, correct.
	And the Pokemon's have to come back to us anyway to release the fiat.
	So um you give us back the Pokemons and then we just wire your funds there back to you to your account, um, subject to KYC and AML processes and procedures that will be in place for um dealing with um the basic the old system.
	And um so yeah, so the Pokems were working then in the platform and it and it just basically gave us a perfect playing field to create the whole populace and in harmony with um every type of um issue we were thinking we we've resolved all those issues now.
	Um let me introduce here, okay, because we're right at a very good nexus here.
	One of the things that attracted me to populace within the space once I started mucking about was the fact that you had thought these things through.
	There was uh indications that you were guys were really focused on compliance and security, which is in in data integrity, which is really necessary here, and that you had the um uh wherewithal to think about the larger issues of currency fluctuations affecting your market and how your market could ultimately or your platform could ultimately be used to dampen so to speak currency fluctuations within your own uh uh ERC twenty token, which you've pegged and called pokens.
	And so that was when I thought, aha, you know, these people are thinking about stuff.
	You know, they're not just uh mucking about in this space, they've really got uh got a plan here.
	And so um uh that's why I started thinking, okay, you know, they're all of the linguistics are good for uh populist, it is fitting into the space in the perfect temporal s uh time, and so I'm gonna recommend it to those people that uh read my reports.
	And at that point we had a um we ran into the real world of uh crypto company information runs into um uh the external uh desires and needs of other individuals not necessarily harmonious.
	And so um uh your populist token had gone through the ICO and then there was a whole lot of FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt that was being spread around about Populace.
	Um and there was a lot of language that was inappropriate and a lot of language That was um uh not factual at all, and there continues to be some of that going on now, but it's dampening down, and this interview is is entirely designed to present uh populace's focus on this and to give you a very decent platform for responding to the FUD.
	Now we also have to note that there seem to be some indications of people doing the FUD to try and drive out weak hands that were holding the populace coin because populist, like a lot of the other cryptocurrencies, has a lot of small players investing in it as opposed to just a couple of big whales.
	And so you guys found yourself in the unfortunate position of uh learning the real uh business lessons that not everybody out there is all that nice and friendly as to how they go about this, and you guys were just out doing business, taking care of stuff.
	Um and so that's why I felt that I had to uh go ahead and do the interview and make the effort to get it out here because uh uh my uh influence had been offered as a wedge or a carrot or a stick.
	I don't know how that was done.
	I didn't look at the details, um, in causing some of the FUD to occur.
	And uh it really pissed me off.
	So anyway, and Steve's a really cool guy.
	I always love the code head approach of the language I saw in Slack.
	And it is true that um as we discussed yesterday, Steve had to isolate on GitHub, which is a central social repository for developers.
	He had to isolate some of their intellectual property and uh put some of these um elements of what they're developing into um restricted access uh repositories, so you won't see these uh the populace uh GitHub reflect the same kind of activity that you would with an entirely open source crypto, and because they do have proprietary stuff here.
	He's been working his butt off for years on this and has his model well developed, and it's a inappropriate to share, B, it would take him forever to explain it to people, and uh uh C it is their bread and butter that makes populace run, so it makes sense that it's all isolated.
	And I had no problem with that.
	There are some people that were casting aspersions on the activities of populists because of uh not because of any solid evidence, but because of what these individuals saw as behavioral inconsistencies, such as you know being sort of open source, but not really.
	And as far as I'm concerned, you can be a hundred percent closed source as long as you're effective and transparent about what you're doing, because your smart contracts must necessarily be transparent to the people that are operating.
	Now let's also let's also say that Steve has run into um or Steve is actually disintermediating a uh huge level of institutional racism.
	Uh globally, if you're involved in a small uh medium uh enterprise business, uh you will come across a Western bank at some point, it doesn't matter where you are, that you'll end up having to try and do business with, and not being the approved uh class or race when you go into this bank, you pay for it.
	They charge you more uh dealing with uh them than if you were in their approved race and class categories.
	And so uh populace in in handling and also by the way, that that institutional racism means that people that are factoring with those banks get less money, pay higher fees, and pay uh more interest rate just simply because of uh their um where they were born and who they are.
	And so uh a cool part about the way that populace is approaching this is the fact that he's able to disintermediate the local stranglehold that all these banks have on business in Delhi or uh you know in Indonesia or Australia or wherever they're they happen to be doing this,
	because now it's global, and so you can also see where the social component of this will be a huge aspect as populace takes off in success, but also in in the sense of in failure.
	And in those places where factoring is used as a uh social control, uh um a class level of control on businesses, that's gone.
	I mean, as soon as populace is available and you've got a computer and you can hook up and sell your invoice to a guy in Denmark who does not care how uh melon enrich your skin is, hey, that's gone.
	And so that is another aspect of this, and I found that very uh harmonious with the populace name and the other linguistics that I kept running into.
	Again, thus my writing about populists and saying why it was so damn cool.
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, the name the name populist just um get that derived from the I used to play the game Populus and it was populist the beginning, basically.
	So um hence we are a new phrase in um in financial revolution in terms of the crypto sphere and populist is the beginning of things to change and um and and change in the future coming as well.
	I mean, um I mean we got I so I mean um back um I mean back to where we got um with the pokens and the tokens kind of like I said um kind of got us to um to the perfect spot in terms of having a full understanding of what this how this platform is gonna work but we want you to give it a bit more than your average ordinary platform or your average ordinary um to token or coin in the sphere and we want to bring something to the whole crypto sphere that is
	not basically there and what we came up with was a
	the you the PPT basically the asset of the platform to actually use that on a platform in such a way that is not being currently used and allow people to purchase invoices with them with their people with the token that they purchased from the pre ICO and what we what we did was we created a sort of marginal collateral smart contract where where users of the token could
	deposit those their PPT into a collateral contract and get money lent on that PPT to trade basically invoices with sure let me intrude then and say the way that that Steve's come up with it here it's basically the first ever that we've seen example of a way to get passive income off of the active movement of of cryptocurrencies through smart contracts again a brilliant innovation go ahead yes yeah
	so yeah so I mean what we're not we're not a security we never ever say we want to be a security and we don't have voting rights on our on our token but I mean it doesn't it didn't stop the the fall to reward reward the PPT holders with a sort of sort of model in a sense that allows them to participate in in actual platform at different type of level so
	I mean one of the questions that we get asked about how the the PPT cloud contract work is do you do you have some form of credit line how are you gonna back the PPT when there is no funds there so I'll clear that now basically speaking as me and then Chris spoke about yesterday I will talk with I'm going a little bit more detail again what we've been doing in the past six months is speaking to a lot of
	investment firms and venture capitalists about about their participation in the in ICS in the crypto world and a lot the response back was a lot of them would say our firm don't do that kind of stuff but we do participate personally ourselves in in the ICS so what we why basically came up with was a model where we can get the involvement of and of that front of that investment money into the platform and then
	in a sense creating funds actually um back the PPT holders um interest and desire to um to um trade margin trade marginally invoice invoices basically on the platform.
	So basically, it would be, again, another form of control over the currency sloshing around, and it would provide the entree for those people that can't get there because of the regulation that's on their business.
	Hedge funds and this kind of thing are basically forbidden from investing in cryptos, but their individual owners or individual participants in those funds recognize a good deal, but they also recognize that legislation, barrier to entry, and so on.
	so on is always gonna be um uh trailing and so if they're gonna get there they need to get there outside of that fund and you you were smart enough to See their interest in involving themselves.
	And it makes a lot of sense.
	I mean, it's also another form of passive income, so to speak, for those people that just want to stash fiat and receive a uh pretty safe level of yield.
	And let's acknowledge there has been no yield in the in the central bank uh world for or decreasing yield for the last 30 years and essentially no yield the last five or six years to speak of.
	And so we have insurance companies, pension funds.
	Anybody trying to do anything with money is basically dying on the vine because they're not getting any kind of uh income flowing through, even at the level of a half a percent a month, would uh they'd be really satisfied these days with half a percent a month.
	They'd be falling all over themselves.
	And it used to be that you know they could get maybe six, seven, eight percent a year pretty much guaranteed.
	So uh it there's a huge need for the um the income stream, both at the passive side and uh for large pools of capital.
	Uh again, Steve had uh been at the right spot, his uh data had wiped uh the illusion from his eyes, and he could see this quite clearly.
	Yeah, so yeah, that's exactly very uh on on on target again, Cliff.
	Yeah, that's right.
	So I mean, um in terms of in terms of seeing it like that, um what I also see for the future as well, I only see PPT rising on the on the on the um on the on the way we've structured the um token in terms of the buyback and also the increase in terms of demand by other um institutional investors coming into the crypto space and other um other people that want to basically trade invoices.
	So um the so having that um that um that idea of the investment firms and VCs creating these pools is quite a um quite an important aspect as well because what we're gonna get is we're gonna have PPT rising in value very high due to demand and the opportunities open for other um to get involved in invoice finance in other markets such as um Europe and China and the Middle East and Asia,
	and then um that would basically give it give it a high market capitalization, and then we need that funds elsewhere to offset against the um the PPT holders trading their invoices, which is gonna be um which I I I don't I don't I never put things on, I never put figures on things, I never gamble, I never speculate, but I can actually foresee um that we will need the funds to um offset against the marginal contracts, smart contracts basically.
	So let's be quite clear about this.
	Steve is explicitly saying that they are planning for success.
	Because success in business brings its own set of problems, and if you don't plan for success, you're gonna be doomed for to failure.
	And and Steve is planning for the success of the PPT token to take off.
	And he's also offering something that, as I say, is highly valuable, uh, which is the disintermediation, uh, the re uh evening of the uh costs all around globally, and then the return of uh yield to investors, and I'm and this is what I saw was that investors were gonna flock to this, uh they don't want to get active, they're not really active in trading, they don't want to be exposed to the uh gyrations of the cryptocurrencies, but they need to get into the space and aha, this is something they understand, this is something that's gonna be reasonably safe.
	And and Steve and I chatted quite extensively yesterday about it, and he can go into it now, uh, about dealing with the security of the data, the validation of the um uh now the validation, this is the beauty part of it, because he's got the um uh extracting uh of the language using the business markup language, uh that tool, he's able to extract the identifiers from the businesses before they even get to the point of trying to be authenticated in order to sell an invoice.
	So he knows about them from his data before they even apply.
	And in fact, if he wants to sit down and do it, he can say, oh, these people from the data sets are likely to be my clients, and uh because he can see who needs the factoring.
	And so he can validate these people ahead of time, so when they actually do approach the system, that is when they do first have their contact with populist because they want to sell an invoice, then it becomes a lot easier on them as well, because he knows who they are.
	He can see what the annual reporting is on the data, we can look them all up, and so the validation process is pre-done to a certain extent, eliminating a lot of the thrashing around, and also really working uh instantly from the very beginning against fraud and other issues in the security part of it all.
	Yeah, so yeah, so um yeah, touching on that point.
	So basically um what we get we get asked a lot of I mean I I don't know if people forgetting or they haven't read um the white paper, but it clearly states that um the XBRL tool targets invoice sellers.
	So it's it wouldn't be a matter of how many people you got signed up on the website.
	We we don't we're not looking in terms of waiting for sign up to come on the system like um or or the chicken and exit scenario of either you have investor invoice sellers.
	We have both basically.
	We have the PBT holders and then we have the fiat holders, and then we have the invoice sellers.
	So as Cliff was uh saying just now, um how how we do this is um prior because because of the the date that we have, we we don't we don't necessarily have to target um the people that immediately need um cash flow finance or invoice finance as as we call it.
	We can actually look and see six months a year or two years ahead.
	Basically, those guys that are coming into the scenario where they're gonna need invoice finance.
	So we can start planning um a year in advance or even two years, looking at different models and other companies that have that have um been in the same situation and gone on to get invoice finance.
	So we can literally plan for the future and say, okay, what we're gonna do is we're gonna market to these guys that don't even know they need finance yet, and be in their mind as their first point of call, and more or less the guys that were and the platform will basically be the in their mind as saying,
	okay, let's go and try this platform because um they they saw this issue coming that we're now facing and they're really giving us a solution, whereas these guys seem to have our interest, um they basically have our interests at heart and um and not those guys that just basically seeking the profit from the trade that we can provide them.
	So that is the unique thing about um the um data science around our expert old data and uh cluster analysis that we use is the fact that um we can basically um foresee what is going to happen in terms of the acquisition of the clients.
	And you can uh yeah, so you don't even really have to do the marketing, just the I mean the populist concept is gonna be self-marketing.
	That aspect of it, I think is not gonna be too much of a problem.
	And you've dealt with the um uh uh you're sort of front loading your entire process for uh anti-fraud security all the way through from the invoice side, and you've eliminated by the way you've structured your um smart contracts, you've eliminated the issue of double spend, so to speak, where someone tries to uh proffer the same invoice over and over again, that sort of thing.
	And you know the businesses before you even uh begin doing business with them.
	So uh eliminated a lot of those aspects, and then your smart contracts uh are I'm assuming they're not multi-sig.
	Correct.
	No, okay, so they don't have the vulnerability that uh multi-signature contracts would allow.
	And uh so very tight for security there.
	Plus, you're not keeping any clients' data on the uh the network at all.
	So their data is hidden behind a smart ID number in your SQL server databases on both sides.
	And so pretty much everybody's anonymous.
	Uh trust is removed, and everybody can trust the platform itself.
	Yeah, so um, yeah, so touching on the the data security side of things, um basically um I did some I did some um consultancy for um some registrars in the past um which were um registrars are basically um share registrars, these guys where every PLC company has a registrar that basically handles and looks after their their sh their documents, their capital interests, the um alignments, share certificates basically, and nominee accounts.
	And what I did, I I spotted some vulnerabilities in their data security around the data security aspect in terms of um information that was leaking through um various um I'm not gonna go too much into it, but it was um companies that were handling billions and billions worth of um data on behalf of their clients, and I basically picked up loopholes in there and um basically helped them close those loopholes.
	So um data security has been a very main uh important aspect of of of the of populist platform itself because we don't want that type of thing to happen.
	And also knowing who we're actually dealing with, so we built we built mechanisms in place that actually um kind of works down to the T in terms of determining these people are who they say they are.
	And also we we got prevention locks on the platform that um so that basically uh allow time gaps, time caps to stop um fraud from act um from occurring.
	So it's like a kind of rest period that funds are moving in in transit, but then they're stopped just for a few seconds or a few uh hour or so until we're happy with the transaction, just a last minute check if you need if we need be.
	Um it doesn't have to always happen, but I mean um and also the duplication as you mentioned as well, because of um the way we store the invoice and smart contracts.
	So um this point is quite this is very important.
	We get I've I've been to a lot of meeting and seminars where banks are saying, oh, um, we need a private blockchain because of um sensitive data.
	Well, basically in invoice finance, what you got is you got you got platforms that are basically telling you who these companies are sending invoices to and who are the debtors that um um that um owe these companies money.
	And at the same time is why would you need a private blockchain if this uh information is already open?
	So what we basically did is um we we we decided that okay, we're gonna put the anonymity of what exists in the um Bitcoin world in the platform.
	So what that means is anyone that wants to trade invoices that comes in with cryptocurrency can still maintain anonymity by not putting their name in.
	So in our smart contracts, you can actually put the name of what you want it to be, or you can leave it anonymous.
	So these are also um it's important for these companies that are trading with um funds for on behalf of the companies to say put in um ABC Limited and that will show up in the smart contract, they can take that to the accountant and accountant will say, okay, I clarify that is your trade you done, and those guys that don't want it, they can have it anonymous, as in um no one really wants to know I traded my Bitcoin for this amount.
	So what we've what what effectively happens is we have a platform that takes the actual physical contract of the invoice agreement between the investor and borrower and stores it into a stores it as a ha um stores it as a hash inside the smart contracts, and then um basically this document is in real time only accessible to those guys in that trade or who settled in that invoice trade on IPFS, so they can actually view the contract themselves in this if in its um in this in its physical form.
	And um that um I mean what we're gonna what we're gonna see in the future is we're gonna I mean in the next couple in the next less than two weeks, we're gonna see real invoice transaction on the ether scan, which we haven't seen, or we're probably just seen we're gonna see real financial transactions in the form of invoices.
	And um the the other thing is what is important is um because we um because we're doing the um the IP IPFS route is we have a record of every invoice that is been sold duplication.
	So um there's been some scenarios where in China where um guys are um either trading with themselves and you and then going to another invoice factoring and then going there, that's been offset.
	So we're having an asset record for anyone, any even existing um um fiat sort of factoring institutions to come and look at that data on the blockchain anyway and open it.
	So that is um, I mean, we're just kind of we're gonna cover populists as an all-round solution to invoice factoring globally, basically.
	Sure, and let me um uh no, I can't hear you.
	No volume.
	No, can't hear you.
	Volume is gone.
	I think it's the reception.
	Can you hear me?
	Um I think you're gonna have to pause it.
	I can't hear you.
	Recording again.
	I can't see you though.
	Okay, let me fix that.
	Uh oh, we've got that going.
	Hang on a second.
	There we go, that's gone.
	Yeah, we're back on any sight of me there.
	Not yet, no.
	Okay.
	Well, I tell you what, we're having Skype gremlins.
	Uh I've got you on full screen at the moment, and we're recording and I'm off the um off the screen.
	I think my camera and stuff is dying in the in the Skype gremlins.
	But why don't you go ahead and uh give me a quick rundown on your uh plans for rolling out over the next few months.
	Okay, so um our plan now is um within the next within the next um in the next week and uh a few days, um literally just under two weeks from now, you're back.
	I can see you.
	There we go.
	Okay, good.
	Yeah.
	So within the next under two weeks now, we're gonna be rolling out the alpha version, which is gonna basically be a um a sort of simulation test sort of version of the platform that basically allows um the PPT holders to transact with the um potential clients that have come from the listing on the website.
	So these are clients not from next BRL but guys that have um showed interest and have been signing up.
	So um volunteers we'll call 'em.
	Yeah.
	And so this is uh basically a real world test of uh an alpha is is what we think of as pre-production, where uh the idea is to break it and find out where those points that are broken and then fix them.
	That's correct.
	Yeah.
	So um um everyone I don't know how people are taking it, but what I've been reading in the Slack is um how is my PPT um gonna be secured.
	So we're not actually using anyone's real PPT.
	What we're doing is we're using it on the test net.
	So no one's um we will never ever launch something um without being a hundred percent sure and secure that we've covered all aspects of security.
	So this is just a test uh and what that would allow us to all see basically is um invoice transactions going through the ether scan and functionality all working fine.
	I mean that will be a big moment for the crypto world in itself because um coming at the moment um we don't even have a single um um institution going through there providing documentation or loans through the through ether scan or any of the blockchain um explorers at the moment.
	So that's what we're gonna be doing.
	That's gonna start um rolling out from in the next two weeks.
	And um hopefully we'll do it we'll have um uh we'd have a few reasons to tweak the system.
	We're gonna um basically wrap it up in a um in the framework, as I said, um as as to speak.
	Because um one of the reasons why we um kept the platform code away from the public eye was um because all the FUD and everything around that, um people who would basically just say your code's a mess.
	Do you guys don't know what you're doing?
	So Yeah.
	Hey, I I've been there.
	So we kept that because I mean um what we will do is we will open source the platform code once the um once we wrap it in um in a framework that uh every most code most um coders are familiar with and understand that's um type of way of um programming sort of raw PHP core coding.
	And um an another s another thing to add to that is as well the beat r itself would be the um the first steps onto the actual platform becoming live.
	So we hope to clear up every um all the issues that we may find in Alpha and um getting to the BR will be the almost the final stages to launching.
	The beta will start around in um November as it is clearly stated on the website, but um uh as I said to Cliff yesterday, um I'm uh I'm a guy that likes to move fast, so I might try and have it done before November, but I don't want anyone to hold me to that.
	I I I really want the platform to be out tomorrow like um everyone else does, but um things have to be right, and a lot of the um the largest investors on the platform do speak to me personally and as basically said, um we want this to be successful, so take your time.
	Correct.
	It's uh with software uh having been through it before, there's always delays, there's always problems, so it's better to make it work, and then you can make it pretty, and then you can get it out, and no one will remember that they thought it was late.
	All they'll say is damn, look at how good this works.
	That's it.
	So I mean like and you just touch up on the point there about um how um the the perception of the platform looks without the skin on.
	So at the moment, um one of the emphasis is building around the UI on it.
	So it's actually f it's actually functioning working as we speak now.
	But um like I explained to you yesterday there's no point in um opening something up for people to test that doesn't have the right UI on it because that also will bring um criticism in as well unnecessary criticism.
	So you have to test the UI component as well.
	That's right, yes.
	I mean if it's badly designed they won't like using it even if it's very functional.
	That's right.
	So um we we initially released the um the wireframe I'm sure you've seen it yes of um some aspects of it.
	What is yet to be um I put a screenshot of the wallet inside um on the Slack that's yet to be released um publicly but I mean um what would be released after that shortly will be the breakdown the sort of um um I I'll say an integral model of how the um collateral smart contract works with your um percentages of um time and price stability of the PPD token in the real time so people can see actually how much margin they're getting for their PBD token against the invoices.
	So that page will come out shortly as well.
	Yeah, let me also say that it occurs to me, just didn't occur to me yesterday, but with your structure and the fact that it's on Ethereum platform and able to be viewed, you would be able to write a nice little tool that you could add onto your website.
	Probably have already thought of this, of providing real-time analytic metrics for people in the general state of the invoicing markets.
	So if you came on in with an automotive invoice for your automotive shop, you could look and see how much discount people were getting in automotive shops globally, simply because maybe automotive shops had a higher risk level or something along those lines and so you can get all of this stuff up front in the way of like a pure disclosure of a real data uh provided just by the analytics of what's happening so far on Populous.
	Amazing concept.
	That's right, you're exactly right.
	So um I think I I think it's touched in the white paper around um we creating smarter oracles.
	That's it that's it.
	I knew I'd thought about seeing that somewhere.
	Yes, that's right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So what we found as well, well, more or less, I'd say we, but I mean, generally, I was looking at the area as a whole.
	And I realized that what is not there is enough.
	These type of data sets.
	Because if we really want the financial sort of crypto sphere to take off, we've got to have the same functionality and the same data available to us as in the old system or this current system at the moment does not work.
	working.
	So what I decided was um to put um to put these data data sets into an Oracle and that can feed into them via populist to other people that want to use them.
	So in a sense, like you just explained, we'll have the analytics of the invoices going through, also the credit algorithm for other projects that will appear in the crypto space to use those data sets as oracles to basically hopefully not replicate the same business as us, but create new innovative ideas in the area as well.
	So we're just trying to build a backbone for the whole crypto sphere and not build a backbone that is going to take years to establish because of the like I just mentioned I don't what I don't want to wait years to see if something happened I want it to happen now but it has to happen perfectly as well.
	So night and day I'm up most nights a day making sure and also the development team as well um they don't sleep as well as well as that.
	So um we're just trying to make um something a reality that when we do open source it then um we can have that community effect of people building off from what we've basically opened as well.
	So apart from populist we have the tools and elements that drive and make populist um work we will open that source as well so people can use it as well.
	I mean um I can't actually wait I want to get my hands on some of that data.
	Well you're free to um you're free to have that date whenever you want I mean thank you very much.
	As long as I get relocated I'll I'll hook you up for it.
	Yeah but I mean um what what what what what I'm thinking what I'm um what I was thinking as well and some other sport as well um what would be a good idea you don't have to participate we don't um we don't want um to take you off course of what you're doing but um um I can just genuinely github so you can overview and and see what is there um I would really appreciate it that's that'd be really cool yeah so um and you can even have a look at their um the ex BRO as well document.
	Well, I don't, I mean, someone said to me today about painting in the XBRO, because what we're seeing is that people are painting in invoice factoring ideas on the blockchain.
	And what my response is, is like, the most important thing about Populous is not the factoring that we're doing, but the way to find customers that need a service.
	Well, also, there's the aspect of patents and intellectual property that is a time delay.
	It's, again, a barrier to entry.
	You have to get involved with attorneys.
	And so you spend your time getting the document that says you did it as opposed to going on out and just doing it.
	And there is a good business model that says your first innovation you don't care about.
	You use that to springboard up to dominate the space.
	And then those innovations from that point on, you've got enough money to have the attorneys and you can just have them go off and do it.
	You don't worry about it much.
	So I understand the, the, and I've been both routes.
	I've spent the money on it and it yielded nothing other than four years delay.
	And so I would never do that again, to be honest, I'd never even seek that.
	Yeah.
	And that's what I mean.
	And that's the same, that's the same sort of philosophy I have.
	If, if you're trying to add, you're trying to add value to something, the best way is just to, to, to, to, to, I mean, I want basically just, to end it short um it is a isn't it's not really a route that I was thinking of um painting stuff and delaying stuff and turn the run the XBRL but at the same time like I mentioned um you can have access to it Cliff.
	Oh, I'd love to.
	And let's be clear here for the audience.
	As an investor, and I actually have to say that I have PPT tokens.
	I've got a few of these things because it's like I didn't want to miss this one because it's such a long-term investment.
	But my thinking is that I don't care about Steve putting a patent on an idea that came out of his head and is now in use because my...
	my confidence and value that I will extract from my relationship with Steve is not in that thought it's in what he's gonna think next so it's his next brilliant idea that's that's gonna bring in that value.
	So you just you know uh I always invest in humans they're far better than any other thing out there.
	Uh Steve I'm gonna thank you very much.
	We've been at this an hour and a half and I want to post this mostly unedited I'm gonna put a link to Populous on um on the posting on YouTube and I will send you guys the raw video or slice and dice it any way you want uh we did a better job this time I think than we did yesterday.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I agree as well.
	Okay, and these poor fellows that have to watch all of this, and believe me, there will be investors that will watch this and dissect this right and left, so they'll be watching this all the way down.
	But you've done very well, especially for someone barely out of his teens.
	You've got really good presence here, and I'm a very happy investor and populist, and I see no reason that that state of being will shift at all as we go forward.
	And in fact, I think I'll just be happier and happier as we go along.
	Oh my God.
	that's I mean yeah I mean that's it.
	So I mean um I would like to thank you again for um basically everything for basically just bringing populist awareness to the wider audience um as we know we don't do my we don't do um press release or anything as in such we don't pay for um editorials and never have you asked me for a pay or anything like that.
	I've never met it.
	I never would do that.
	It's in my reader's interest.
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, I'm quite grateful that you saw Populous for what it is.
	It kind of gives me goosebumps saying that, but it's the truth.
	And, I mean, there's a lot more to come.
	Like I said, I think we, Populous and yourself and myself, we have a long road to go.
	Yeah.
	And I'm perfectly sanguine with saying that, you know, publicly, that should you guys ever need anything I might be able to provide, you only have to ask.
	No intent.
	of uh charging you money or any of that you guys are on a good road there that I certainly want to support so hey if if you think I have a uh hand and maybe providing a solution to a bit of a problem let me know glad to provide one hundred percent one hundred percent Cliff.
	Well thank you very much uh my dogs have been fed and now they're uh they're on my case to go out, so I I've got to get moving here.
	But uh I'll get this up in the next few hours and we'll um uh we'll see what kind of an effect it really makes.
	I'm think I think we'll both be very surprised.
	Time will tell.
	Time will tell.
	Thank you very much.
	You're you did a much better job today than yesterday.
	Yeah thank you thank you.
	Have a good day.

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