Was NXIVM A Cult, Is Keith Raniere Guilty & Did The FBI Plant Evidence To Frame Him As Experts Say?
Six experts, including three former top FBI experts, certify planting of evidence in US vs. Raniere; A former US Attorney, Alan Dershowitz, and Central Park 5 Exoneree call for accountability and an immediate evidentiary hearing
On October 6th, a press conference was held to unveil the findings of six forensic experts of FBI corruption in the case of US v Keith Raniere.
The experts and a panel of advocates, including Professor Alan Dershowitz, Central Park 5 Exoneree Dr. Yusef Salaam, and former US Attorney Bud Cummins, discussed the matter.
Former FBI Special Agent and Forensic Examiner Dr. James Richard Kiper said that all six experts “concluded that the digital evidence devices used to convict Mr. Raniere of child pornography and sexual exploitation of a minor were significantly manipulated. Additionally, we know to a scientific certainty some of the evidence was altered while in the possession of the FBI.”
Former Senior Forensic Examiner Stacy Eldridge said, “It is clear that the photos in this case were planted there.”
Former FBI Forensic Examiner William Odom said, “In 25 years of digital forensic investigations, five of which was with the FBI, the amount of premeditation to perform this fraud — I’ve never seen anything like that.”
Professor Dershowitz, who represents Raniere and Clare Bronfman, said, “If true, this is a historic level of corruption…There must be immediate action. There should swiftly be an evidentiary hearing. Appropriate relief may include a new trial or even dismissal of the indictment due to outrageous government conduct. If there is a hearing, Mr. Raniere wishes to attend by video conference rather than be transported.”
Dershowitz challenged the media to cover this issue and remarked, “This is a great test of our legal system. Whether you like Mr. Raniere or not, the question is, ‘Can we be fair to those we despise?’”
Professor Sullivan, who also represents Bronfman, said, “The only reason that Ms. Bronfman and the others accepted a plea bargain is because this so-called evidence appeared at the eleventh hour and it was so prejudicial that they felt this was their only option.”
Sullivan also criticized the government’s response to this evidence, saying “Assistant US Attorney Kevin Trowel called it “frivolous.” Judge Nicholas G. Garaufis deferred ruling on this evidence, classifying it as not raising a substantial issue. Attorney General Merrick Garland then awarded this prosecution and FBI team for their distinguished service.” US Attorney Cummins said, “If an independent investigation determines that this tampering occurred, there must be accountability. People have to be criminally prosecuted. This is very serious, and the people responsible need to be held accountable.” Dr. Salaam said in a pre-recorded video statement, “If this can happen to someone who is white, who is educated, who has the complexion for acceptance, none of us are safe.” Joseph Tully, Raniere’s appellate attorney said, “It appears that [Mr. Raniere] is being retaliated against in the prison based on our filings…. Now, he is enduring more confinement in the SHU, again without cause, this time for over 60 days and counting. I call upon the warden of the facility where Mr. Raniere is housed, Warden Mark Gutierrez, to investigate Mr. Raniere’s conditions. I am further concerned that Mr. Raniere may be transferred to another location where his safety may be threatened.” Tully filed a motion to stay Raniere’s appeal so that this evidence of FBI fraud and perjury could be presented in a hearing immediately before Judge Garaufis. Tully wrote in an attachment to the motion, “[W]hen the tampering in this case is finally acknowledged in Court… the actions of any governmental actors subsequently proven to be involved, will need to be questioned and reexamined in all other cases in which they were allowed to work.”
We are live tonight to have a very interesting conversation about Nexium and Keith Rainier.
I'm very excited to have this conversation with uh two men who I have come to find as friends and been very impressed with uh interacting with um periodically over the last year or so, ever since I met Nikki Klein.
Some of you may have seen the episode that Nikki and I did together about a year ago.
Um is one of my favorite episodes, uh, even to this day that we've done.
And so what I want to do is Mark, let's start with you and have you introduce yourself.
And then Eduardo, why don't you introduce yourself um after that and give us a little context?
That's great, Chase.
Thank you so much for having us.
Uh yeah, it has been great to get to know you over the last year and a half.
I think you've been one of the people who've been willing just to be more open and more critical, uh more of a critical thinker with respect to the narrative that's out there.
So we appreciate you um, you know, have I know for both of us, you know, thank you for having us on.
Um, but yes, my name is Mark Elliott.
I have I've had an incredible journey over the last uh I'm 37 out of the last 37 years.
The short of it is I have been an inspirational speaker.
I lived with a severe case of Tourette syndrome for about 20 years.
Um, and then while I was speaking, I ended up finding the courses uh called Executive Success Programs, uh, which is one of the companies under the Nexium umbrella.
And it was through Nexium and the help of Nancy Solzman and Keith Rainier and an incredible community of people, I was able to overcome my Tourette's uh completely uh mind over body.
So uh that was how I was introduced, you know, into uh Nexium.
Uh and then obviously, uh, you know, as you've uh and Nikki have talked about, uh, of course, the you know, the government completely came in and uh destroyed our community.
Our friends were uh you know charged and ultimately uh as we know were wrongfully convicted.
And so myself and Eduardo uh and Nikki uh and uh other great friends who need Trocavortie uh and other people, we have been, you know, fighting for the last few years to try to expose the injustice uh that happened in this case with respect to Keith, uh Claire Bronfman, uh, and the other people.
So uh definitely has been uh, you know, I've I guess you could say I've had different phases of what I've been doing in my life.
Absolutely.
Eduardo, go ahead.
Uh thanks, Chase.
Um I guess yes, my name is Eduardo, and I I figure people know me as a friend of Keith and Allison and one of the owners of the source, and um one of the people that have been helping trying to expose the injustice, uh the FBI uh planting evidence on the case.
So I guess we figured with the attention that maybe the vow is having and some of the stuff that's happening with Mark's lawsuit, we could maybe bring some attention to the tampering because um I don't know how much you know about it,
Chase, but uh as we have been filing this scientific uh evidence that the FBI manipulated those dates that were used to uh claim child pornography as as we file those things, Keith has been retaliated against and is having a really hard time in prison.
And you know, even though we have Alan Dorsh who would send Ron Sullivan and you know, all sorts of people asking for justice, the media has silenced this.
So we're hoping that uh what's happening with Mark and his lawsuit against uh Alliancegate and our appearance on the bow uh might get us some attention and we could use that.
So uh I'm grateful that you're giving us this opportunity.
You know, it hasn't been easy for us, as you know.
Absolutely.
Well, I'm sorry that you're um going through all that you are going through.
I do want to provide a little bit of context uh around me because it's very easy for people to dismiss any sort of support for Keith as um, you know, just a brainwashed cult member thing, right?
Oh, the course of the Manson family loved Charlie, right?
And I just want to say uh and clarify that I didn't even know what Nexium was until the Val season one came out and I watched it, and that's how I thought to reach out to Nikki Klein to come on the the podcast.
So I am not someone who um uh was ever involved in Nexium.
I've never met Keith.
I've never spoken to Keith.
Um Keith's never sent me an indirect message.
He might I don't even know if he knows if I exist.
So I'm not like a Keith Rainier disciple by any means, or I know that's for lack of a better term, not that there are any disciples of Keith Rainier, right?
That's even imply a religious tone in and of itself, but I am not someone who has been manipulated or or communicated with in any way by Keith.
I frankly, I don't even know if Keith is a good person or not, because I've never met him or interacted with him.
But I do know that it's very questionable the manner in which he was convicted and put in prison.
And I do know that I respect a lot of people close to him and know people that were close to him that I trust.
Um and so uh I just wanted to provide that context so people didn't run in the impression that this was you know just a podcast of former members who are still under some sort of a spell or anything.
That's not what this is.
This is an honest conversation about what happened, how it was covered, and and and what's next.
Uh in uh another side of you, right?
It's it's not as sexy as the vow, but it should be a counter to sort of some of the narratives that have been that have been spilled.
So Mark, let's let's start with you a little bit.
You were you were you were doing motivational speeches, which must have been just brutal for people to listen to, right?
Because you were you had Tourette and that's how you that's how you heard about executive success programs.
Yeah, I needed help with it.
I it was uh it was something I didn't imagine I was gonna be doing, but it was an incredible opportunity, you know, having uh I was able to, you know, turn lemons into lemonade and with my experience with Tourette syndrome.
Uh I was really just talking about a very basic message of tolerance and compassion and using the Tourette's to convey, look, you don't really know someone, you know, even though you can make an initial assumptions and you have initial prejudices against people, recognize you don't really know the full story.
Which, you know, funny enough, I think relates a lot to you know, my experience and Eduardo's experience of what's happened with Nexium.
You know, people see uh, you know, headlines, they see documentaries, and just it's so easy to to immediately and just instantly believe it because it seems, you know, one, because it's salacious and so it causes you to react, or you hear something really negative, and so you know, it it generates a lot of fear, or you feel like you know, you just get a really bad feeling about it.
That's very understandable.
It's not like uh, you know, sometimes I think people think uh people think that we don't know the headlines, or we haven't heard things and and sort of were sort of immune to it, or were callous because we don't listen to it.
You know, we're I'm still a person, I still hear those things.
It's not like I don't hear it, it's just the question is is that even after you hear something initially, do you have the ability to question it and critically think, which is imperative if you want to have you know be more to have better discourse to be more civilized?
So it's neat how my speaking has sort of come full circle in that way, that message.
It's just you know, first I experienced um people believing what they knew about my life with Tourette's, and now you know, being associated with Nexium and fighting fighting for Keith's constitutional rights, trying to help expose the FBI.
I'm experiencing it in in a very different, you know, in just a very different uh in different content now.
Can you tell me about tell me the story of the first time that you met Keith and what year it was and and what happened?
The first time I met Keith, I think it was after I was doing a training in Albany.
And you know, at that point I had had so many, I had just done the first five days of the 16-day course, and I had had such uh amazing realizations about myself, about just I I started to think about a lot of things that I've never thought about before.
And I was so impressed with the course, so impressed with the way it was set up.
And so I was very excited to meet, you know, one of the person that created it.
Um I think I um I think I met him actually was at volleyball where I met him, and uh he was just very kind and open and um I was just you know really really excited and grateful to meet him.
As I even just from the first five days before I had beaten Tourette's, I started to have changes in my life that um were wonderful.
And so and and just to be clear for the sake of the audience, Keith doesn't actually didn't actually teach the courses, did he at the end, or or had he had he been lecturing you before you met him, or was the course something that was done by uh a teacher or coach uh before you met?
Do you want to take that one, Eduard?
We both could answer.
Do you want to take that one, Eduardo?
Take it.
Um, no, you know, uh, I guess the 10 years that I took courses.
Um, I never had a class taught by Keith.
Um, everything that we learned in ESP and the other companies was have been trained for decades for other people.
It had been decades since uh Keith uh trained anything.
Um some of the videos that are around on the bow and seduced are companies that we were developing later.
It was a couple of years before the trial and everything, before everything went down, we were developing new companies, and that's where a lot of the videos come from.
But uh Keith teaching was something that um ESP hadn't had for a long time.
I mean, all of the teachings were done actually with a template exactly the same with the each class with Nancy teaching in video.
So this has been the case for a decade.
So uh yeah, I never had a class with Keith until we developed those other companies.
Yeah, well, and that's the reason I wanted to bring that up is because when one thinks of a cult leader, they think of like a Jim Jones or a Charles Manson or somebody like that who is the sole communicator, you know, from he's this he's the source for lack of a better term.
It communicating directly to followers, right?
Like like Jesus didn't really delegate his message until he you know died and was resurrected, right?
Uh and so it I think that many people may be surprised to know that this so-called cult, you know, had these programs in these centers all over the place where where Keith wasn't actually even meeting everyone, or he didn't meet all 17,000 people that did the courses, he wasn't actually interacting with everyone.
And you know, it's possible it's it's it seems intuitive to me at least that if this was really sort of a if the intention was really a cult environment that Keith would have been directly involved with every person that walked through the door, at least in the in the beginning.
I think it's well said, yeah.
I mean it's so I want to ask you, Mark, what's the deal with you and Lionscape?
Because I didn't even know that you were involved in a lawsuit against Lionsgate until Eduardo told me a couple of days ago.
So obviously, you know, people are aware of the vow that you know came out uh you know about Nexium.
And there was another documentary that that was produced, and one of the executive producers was India Oxenberg, who um, you know, people I'm sure know of you know her, you know, through the trial, and also you know, her mom was uh very famous about going out doing a whole public campaign about that her daughter was somehow stuck in a in a cult.
Uh Catherine Oxenberg, sorry, uh was her name.
And so they produced a documentary called Seduced, uh, that was about India's experience in Nexium.
And it came out in October of 2020.
And after I watched it, I noticed basically I watched it and I had this really bad feeling because I saw that I was in it, which shocked me, by the way, because you know, one I'm well one, the documentary is in my experience a very negative documentary.
You know, it's about her negative experience of Nexium and how it uh, you know, it has changed over time for her.
And so, anyways, I watched it and when I went back through it with a fine with uh you know a fine-toothed comb.
Um, it was very clear that it was deliberate with how they portrayed me in the documentary.
There's different scenes in it where um they've spliced and fabricated scenes together.
They literally took a testimonial that I did for a completely different company for a whole company on uh it's called Genesse for men and women, and made it appear that I'm giving a testimonial for another company called SOP.
To make it even worse, though, the thing that they made it seem like I was supporting was audio from Keith that was spliced together.
So it wasn't even one coherent sentence from Keith, it was multiple sentences spliced together that uh yeah, where Keith was talking about the the primitive aspects of men's uh sexuality and the often negative aspects of it.
And he's giving a whole course that was only for men talking that men need to become aware of this of that aspect of themselves.
If they don't, and if you as a man suppress it, you actually can become more violent towards women.
So, of course, as you can imagine, a lot of that can be taken out of context.
So they took some of that audio, spliced it together and then they put a testimonial where where literally he's you know saying this really sort of uh out of context salacious kind of thing and then it cuts to my face saying this is the best education about women.
No one has ever taught us how to relate to women like this.
This is quote the Harvard of how to relate to women.
Wow.
So let I want to I wanna I want to show this clip and get your feedback on it that we uh that we prepared.
Um I'm gonna go ahead and this is a different one, just so you know.
This is okay a different just for people know what they're watching.
Is is that there was another course called The Ethicist that um uh was all about uh ethics about principles, and so there was a lot of movies that were shown in there um about you know famous people like Gandhi and different and uh other people like that, but in it they what they did is is that they spliced footage together to make it appear that Keith is basically giving me instructions or telling me it's okay to go kill people, and uh we we can discuss it afterwards of how they spliced it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Everything in the group became how much are you willing to do for Keith Renier?
And Keith Renier was teaching a philosophy that the ends justify the means.
If we lie, but our goal is to save the world.
Isn't that justified?
You can understand killing when you feel it is necessary.
So here you have these women, and let's suppose these women are representative to you of a gang that's killing your family, and that you feel that if you don't do this, your family's gonna die, or people you know are gonna die.
So you feel they must die.
So was that even the same event?
So what's interesting is that uh it's great that Eduardo is here because what they were actually showing was uh that's footage from uh a class from the source.
Eduardo, could you share just a little bit about the source?
Yeah.
So um the source is an acting curriculum, and um, one of the things that it teaches is um you know being able to talk about the things that are maybe perceived as the worst things in humanity, and uh people were sharing videos.
Interestingly enough, the video that Keith is talking about in that segment, it's a video that Mark Vicente provided where there's something really awful being done to some Mexican women.
It's a video that was uploaded by cartels in Mexico.
I don't even, I'm not even gonna say what it is that's being done to this women, but it's pretty awful.
Marg Vicente submitted it to the class, and we're discussing it, you know.
And uh, you know, we're talking about the concept of um as an actor, how do you go and try on so that you can act like it?
How do you try on something that it's so awful?
So eject.
How would you portray the guitar member cartel members in the scene so that it's actually comes across as you know a real true performance, genuine, uh when when internally you're so fundamentally averse to everything they're doing in the scene, right?
So it's not only that it's hard to go and act it and forget about acting and acting it fluidly, you know, like a good actor, but even going and thinking about it or having a discussion about it, it's difficult.
So the curriculum dealt with that.
Um seduced used a lot of uh you know, a video where we discussed um, you know, someone who abuses children, which is uh uh you know, most actors have a hard time uh approaching any of that or playing anything of that.
I think he was um Keith Sutherland who played, I don't know if you know uh a time to kill.
It was a movie with Matthew McConaughey and Samuel Jackson long ago.
He plays actually he does a good job, I believe, of someone who abuses a child, and he does it for like the worst reasons for like hate towards the race.
Um, a time to kill is the name of the movie.
And and you know, he does a great job, and it's really difficult.
Most actors, even like the ones that are like good good actors, can't go and even try that on, let alone play it play it well.
So all these different things we explored in that class, and we talked about how can we even discuss it so that we can uh play it.
And in seduced, and even in the vow a little bit, they go and they show it as if this were conversations with Keith where he's telling us go and do this thing.
It's uh, you know, clearly meant to be distorted.
If you watch the class, which I sent to you, the whole class is only about that, trying on different things, different things that are difficult for people to try on, and that's it.
And the slices of seduced and some of it, even in the vow are meant to make it look like he's instructing negative things, not talking about negative characters.
Does that make sense?
Right.
Right.
It's and they make it sound like he's he's telling you to to be this way or do this thing, but he's actually just trying to help you learn as an actor how to portray or uh this this character in a performance.
And ironically, you know, this company had as a founding principle to teach people how to act by actually creating more empathy for the thing that you're trying to play.
In other words, right?
What the hope was was that people would create more compassion against even those dark aspects of humanity.
So it's a thing that if you go and look at the dozens, hundreds of testimonials, including Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Ames and all those people.
If you when they interview them about the curriculum, they say that.
You know, this is the thing that not only do I feel like a better actor, I'm having better results, the most compassion.
Mark Vicente used to sell it like that.
You know, this is the most compassion I've ever built.
So it was a company that he meant to talk about difficult things so that you could play them, be successful with them, and also you develop compassion with those dark aspects of humanity.
So it was the opposite exactly of what seduced and the vow portrayed.
Yeah.
What makes it worse, Chase, is that so here what Eduardo is describing is that you have a scene where he's actually talking about building compassion, and that's from a curriculum company called The Source.
But in the beginning of the clip that you just saw, they're talking about a completely different course course called the Ethicist, where people where we explore things about ethics and about principles and about you know, having conversations about why do people die for a principle?
It's not Keith telling people go die for a principle.
It's looking at why, you know, like this incredible um human study about people like Gandhi, people like Martin Luther King, why do people live such principled lives?
So obviously, you know, things could be taken out of context there.
So they show clips from that course, and then they somehow show from a completely different course, this conversation about you know, these women who are being murdered, but it's a completely different course, which means these editors uh you know would have had to gone through hundreds and hundreds of hours to try to find a very specific clip where he might be talking about something that could relate to a completely different course, and then put them together.
And then, of course, you know, where you have you know, Keith is saying they must die.
They make it appear that that I'm the one speaking to him.
If you look at the raw footage, it's actually Eduardo was actually asking Keith a question, uh, you know, about some of this, and this is where this came up.
And then so he was telling Eduardo to kill somebody.
So let me let me ask you this.
Right, right.
So, what is what is the lawsuit with Lionsgate?
Are you are is it a defamation issue?
Yeah, it's it's it's a defamation, and I don't want to go too deep into it just because obviously it's still going on.
Yeah, pending it's a defamation lawsuit, you know, for how they portrayed me.
I filed it a year ago, and just this past Friday, it was incredible.
I had my first opportunity to go in front of a federal judge in Riverside, California.
Um, you know, to see whether or not this, you know, moves forward.
If it gets passed, it's called an anti-slap motion regarding the first amendment, uh, or if it's dismissed.
Uh, so uh, you know, it's been a long journey, you know.
It's this came out two years ago.
Um, but I'm incredibly excited just to be able to, you know, to show people this is, you know, if you're gonna call yourself a documentary, then be a documentary that shows truth that shows facts.
And uh, you know, in this case, here we have the direct evidence to show that this was manipulated and manipulated in a very specific way, um, you know, with the intent to harm.
Um, you know, India's someone that knew me.
I've known India for you know, Eduardo and I knew India so well.
This isn't like she's a stranger to us.
She knew about my life with the Charts and what it happened.
She knows about Eduardo, about his passion for acting, about his family.
I mean, this this isn't a stranger.
This was done specifically.
Um, you know, the I think, you know, for myself or Eduardo, you know, it's we've we've taken uh unfortunately it's been an unpopular position to fight for the injustices with respect to the prosecution with respect to the FBI.
And so I think the fact that we're still out there saying hey look Nexium is a wonderful thing.
You know it's an incredible thing.
And particularly with the Tourette syndrome, which is absolutely antithetical that Nexium hurts people, um people don't want that out there.
You know, 17,000 people took this course.
I don't think people even can wrap their head around this international supposed sex cult that you know sex traffic and has forced all these horrible things all around the world in one of the biggest criminal cases in the last decade in the Eastern District of New York I think and correct me if I'm wrong Eduardo there is two current students of Nexium that claimed a crime happen you know two out of 17,000
that was I mean it's it's it's like hard to really understand the level of exaggeration that has taken place here.
Something you know Nexine was in multiple countries it had reached billionaires, entrepreneurs, presidential families all the way down to nannies to uh to babysitters to uh attorneys to bartenders um all walks of life multi you know all kinds of religions all kinds of races all kinds of ethnicities I mean it's to think um of of how it's been blown out of proportion is hard for people to grasp so I think it's clear why they wanted to go after people like me why they've
continue to go after people like Eduardo, is we're saying something that goes very against the narrative.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And one of the things that's interesting to me about Keith is, you know, if you look at like a Harvey Weinstein, who is accused of sex crimes, I can name someone or identify a face of a single person who's come out publicly and just defiantly fighting for Harvey Weinstein, right?
Like the guy did it, got convicted, went away.
Nobody's like fighting for that guy, right?
It's almost like he didn't have any true friends.
You know, he had a lot of colleagues in a major network, but not necessarily a lot of true sort of loyal friends.
And the thing that's so fascinating to me about Keith is not only that in the face of this conviction, he's had so many people fight for him.
But were I to go to prison for something, I don't know that I would have so many people fight for me, right?
Like publicly just not give up, right?
Like you see Julian Assange, he's got a crowd, you know, that definitely fights for him.
And I think it's an indicator that this person, Keith, has really had a positive impact on at least some lives to the extent that strangers, not blood, not family, but just, you know, people that he's worked with, whether briefly or for an extended period of time, are willing to really dedicate a substantial portion of their lives to tell the other
side of the story.
Why do you think it is that so many like you guys and Nikki and others are just determined to make this right?
I think there's different reasons.
I think, I mean, very simply, if you take most of the people that you named, these were people that literally, they were working in the companies you described, and they were getting paychecks by that companies paying the rent.
And those companies were suddenly defamed and destroyed.
And then there's that.
Yeah.
You know, there's also, these are people that you like, Claire and Keith, you're interacting with them every day.
Even the people that are the accusers, you support.
see them every day and then this incredible things come out in the media and they get to the court and just a complete distorted thing you I understand that for you the information came from what the media was saying but for us is this sudden change the opposite of what you've seen is out there in the media.
You're involved, you know the truth, and it's difficult to escape, you know.
Um so we're very personally involved and what's going on.
And it it's uh it's not that people that Keith has a lot of people that are close to him, is this is that this was a community of people.
I mean, there was dozens literally of companies successful, some of them, you know, millionaire companies, uh executive boards and people, communities.
Um, it's it's rare to find a group of companies that have also a community that runs them.
And this is that happened for two decades.
So there's a lot of people involved because this is some sort of a family problem thing going on, very simply.
And also there's the fact that you know, you you witness an injustice, it sort of wakes you up to what's happening, and you can't just let it go.
I mean, it's um it it's uh it's alarming.
People think that it's a lie or whatever, but once you see that really the government is framing their people and sending innocent people to jail, you can't let that go.
You shouldn't.
No citizens should let that go.
It's crazy to let it go.
The the other thing you said, Chase, is that we are not well, I guess we myself, we are not loyal to Keith blindly.
You know, I think that's what people think somehow, particularly in my case, you know, because it's so clear with Tourette's.
Oh, because he helped you with Tourette's, that's why you're helping him.
You know, which implies that because somebody helped me in my life, I have the inability to critically think or hold them accountable, is basically what they're saying.
People don't realize, too.
When I was born, I had a create a horrible birth defect where I most of my intestines were removed.
I had an incredible surgeon, her name's Dr. Turnberg.
That woman literally saved my life.
Seven operations, it's it's a true miracle.
I am incredibly indebted to her.
I am grateful for what she did.
However, I'm still, you know, an adult, you know, I grew up, I became an adult.
If she did something bad, I could hold her accountable and still be grateful for her saving my life.
There's no difference with respect to Keith.
He created a curriculum that profoundly helped me, and I will forever be grateful.
Now I know that he's innocent, but even if I thought he did something, I could still hold him accountable for that and be grateful.
If what Eduardo is describing, though, is that if people are willing to just take a moment to just blow away all the prejudice and all the hate and start to have a more rational conversation about the facts and about the evidence, it becomes very clear very quickly that something is very, very wrong here.
You know, when people people have accused Eduardo, myself, Nikki Sunil, other people that somehow we support someone who is a sex trafficker.
How could we possibly do that?
I mean, from the outside, yes, from an initial, you know, sort of like what I was talking about with the Tourette's, from like an initially seeing that that someone's charged with sex trafficking and convicted, and now you have people supporting them.
It's very natural that you think these people support sex trafficking, you know, a sex trafficker just from an initial impulse.
But when you start to look at the facts, this is a this this charge of sex trafficking is unprecedented in in US history.
You have a case where you have a single female who was who um received oral sex from one other female, and no money was exchanged.
And Keith Rainier was charged for sex trafficking, was I think sentenced to it was 20 or 40 years, and now somehow Nexium is a sex trafficking organization.
Right, right.
It would be like if uh Jeff Bezos were accused of sex trafficking and they tore down Amazon over it.
It's like what does that have to do?
Again, uh so it's it's not that we are loyal to Keith Rainery.
I think ultimately the the beautiful thing about the course is that it taught people how to have integrity, how to uh live, you know, develop a sense of your own ethics, develop a sense of principles for yourself.
And what Eduardo had said is is that you know, here we are, we're living, we were all uh an incredible community living our lives, and we saw in front of our in front of our face the US government and completely terrorizing an organization where here you had, you know, they made uh a non-violent community a uh uh they brought Rico charges, which is the charges that they bring to uh uh you know, uh the the mob.
And so I know myself and Eduardo and our friends, we've been fighting because the reality is our friends were uh, you know, what what do you do when your friends are being beat up right in front of you?
Do you just walk away?
And even if you're not strong enough to jump in the fight, you call the police, you do something to help.
And so that's what we've been trying to do.
And luckily, as we've been fighting over the years, more and more people have been seeing the injustice.
And Eduardo had talked about in the beginning, we now have uh to you know, to a scientific uh certainty evidence that there was uh that the FBI tampered with evidence regarding the child pornography, uh, which will, you know, which is uh which, you know, in a sense is basically the FBI planted child pornography on Keith Rainier to convict him.
Yeah.
So before you have to hop off the call, there's two things I want to do.
I want to ask you a little bit about the um the Tourette situation specifically, and I want to also show that um that compilation video that we used with the uh and during the press conference as well, uh, and get a couple of your your thoughts on that.
Um regarding the Tourette's thing, one of the things that's interesting is that there's kind of several different angles that this gets that this gets attacked.
One angle is like you mentioned, oh, because he helped you, then you know, you're helping him.
Uh and the other angle is, oh, you never really had Tourette's, you just faked it, right?
And I heard, though I haven't noticed any disclaimer, maybe the third episode tonight has a disclaimer where they where they sort of discredit um that there's any sort of alternative solution for Tourette's.
I uh I can't remember where I read it, but I read that um there was going to be like a disclaimer at the beginning of an episode about the efficacy of this of Nexium or ESP's treatment uh uh regarding Tourette's.
But at the same token, I believe in the first season of The VAW, and I could be mistaken in my memory, but I believe that Sarah Edmondson was fairly explicit stating that no, the Tourette's was legit, like you know, Keith's the shahead, but he cured Tourette's for sure, you know.
That's that was sort of her stance, if I remember correctly from season one.
So can you talk a little bit about what that therapy, that talk therapy was that you went through uh and and the legitimate efficacy sort of uh counter the the skepticism around that story?
So there's a lot there, just a couple quick things.
First off, Nexime never claimed that we were curing people of Tourette syndrome.
Never once pardon me.
Pardon me for being presumptuous about that.
But just so you know, they have said that nowhere when I was going through it, Keith never said that, Nancy never said that.
That was not something we promoted, even with the documentary.
What's clear is is that the the technology, when I say a technology, it's not a machine, but the conversations of questions and philosophical inquiry to help someone build so more self-awareness about themselves that Keith uh had created with Nancy, it's through that exploration.
It seems that there was a profound impact on some people with Tourette syndrome.
Some people, you know, we only had had had 12 people go through it, or maybe it was 11 people go through it.
So we weren't making any grandiose claims about everyone with Tourette syndrome.
It was a very specific interview process that people went through, and we only could help people that people wanted to be helped.
Do I know this could help everyone with Tourette's in the world?
I don't know.
Do I think it could help a lot of people?
Absolutely.
You know, there's no question about that.
What was very different about it, just to sort of zoom out, is most uh treatments for Tourette syndrome deal with the effects.
You know, it deals with you know the the ticking aspect, the fact that um, you know, I have this really uncomfortable itch and I don't know what to do with it.
So medication makes the itch go away.
When I went through ESP executive success programs, through through the questions in the classes and learning about fear and about anxiety and about anger and about uh you know emotional reactions that I have, what I found out is is that my Tourette's for me was way more emotional and psychological than it was physiological.
And when I started to go on that journey of just being willing to question, because before ESP, I didn't even know that that was a question, just by the question alone.
Did I go on a journey that now I can you know be on a podcast with you?
And no one would ever know that I lived a day with Tourette syndrome.
It's it's something that I believe was on the cutting edge of of uh of psychology and helping neurological disorders around the world, people, you know, people with neurological disorders around the world.
And um, you know, hopefully when we expose when we expose this injustice and and people see what was done to the Nexime community and to Keith and to Claire and to Nancy and to all these people, you know, one day we we will again help people with Tourette syndrome um and and many other things out there in the world.
Um so I know that's a lot in short, it's there's a lot that I could talk about with the Tourette's, but it's it was something that um I know for me, I had never never experienced a set of tools like that that could help me have this type of breakthrough and and so quickly.
Right.
And ironically, it ruined your speaking career.
So the next thing I want to, I'm just kidding.
The next thing I wanted to uh um ask you about, just I I know that you're tight on time, so I want to show this clip and see if we can get a thought from you, Mark, before you have to go on it, and then uh uh we'll take it from there.
Is that okay?
Do you have a minute?
Yeah, absolutely.
Very good.
Thank you.
I worked in the FBI for about 10 years.
It is clear that the photos in this case were planted there.
This is the most serious tampering of evidence that I've ever seen.
It's inescapable that the FBI proactively created fake evidence.
Made a change while I was in FBI custody, uh just modified, it was faltered.
And 25 years of digital forensic investigations, five of which was with the FBI.
The amount of technical ability and premeditation to perform this fraud in the case against Mr. Rainier, I've never seen anything like that.
In my 20 years' experience with the FBI, I have never seen data manipulation, evidence tampering, anything like this on this scale.
When I first read the papers that Mr. Rainier uh presented on tampering, I was shocked.
I've never seen an instance where the system threw away its credibility purely for the purpose of convicting uh a defendant.
If it could happen to a person who is educated, who is white, who has the complexion for acceptance, as I would say, none of us are safe.
There's no need to fabricate evidence for a guilty man.
The fact that they fabricated evidence here and to the degree that they did shocks the conscience.
If this alleged FBI malfeasance turns out to be true, as our experts say it is, then this is really historic.
This is really an attempt to frame somebody based on manipulation of data.
That's just unacceptable in an American court and in the American legal system.
I'm the former United States attorney for the Eastern District of Arkansas.
In the face of this alarming evidence, there's really no excuse for the court or for the prosecutor to hide behind procedural delays and waiting to get to the bottom of this.
They should take immediate action.
And if they can't or they won't, United States Attorney General should appoint an independent prosecutor.
If an independent investigation determines this tampering occurred, there must be accountability.
People have to be criminally prosecuted.
This is very serious.
Thank you.
Okay.
So um what are your thoughts on that?
Well, I would say, and before I hop off, I would love to know your thoughts, Chase.
So, like I said in the beginning of this podcast, I don't know if Keith is a good person or not.
But and I don't know if he's guilty of the other crimes that he was convicted of.
I don't know if there was actually racketeering.
I don't know if there was actually illegal use of credit cards of people or identity theft.
I don't know.
I haven't looked at that.
But I am of the traditional American belief that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
And if the government in the process of prosecuting a crime makes one mistake, then you just have to give the defendant the benefit of the doubt.
So I I am adamantly opposed to his his imprisonment at this time.
Um regardless of whether he's even guilty of the other crimes, because that evidence right there that the FBI planted information, that shows that we have a much greater villain than Keith Rainier as an individual could ever be in the FBI itself.
And frankly I read um Rick Ross's book on cults which was a fascinating book and when he describes the the characteristics of a cult I think there's like 10 items everything that he said that characterizes a cult could be used to describe the FBI.
Right?
Are you asked to follow orders without question?
Like I mean it's like it's like basic stuff.
And so it's like so ironic to me that there's this there's this you know antagonism toward Nexium and all of its members and its leader coming from these institutions that have actually committed the crimes on mass scales.
Like you think the CIA has never been engaged in human trafficking or racketeering or or doesn't use child pornography to frame people like come on like these people are actually guilty of what of what they put Keith away from so just in just the fact that the evidence was tampered with is enough for me to adamantly impose his imprisonment.
That's my take on this.
There's not a lot to say after that.
I mean, I couldn't agree more in the sense of Richard, Judge Mays, who is one of the people in the video, in his interview, he said to us one time, when a defendant commits a crime, they impeach themselves.
But the people that committed this crime, they impeach the system.
That's a far greater crime than any crime a civilian could commit.
Now, in this case, again, we know that Keith Murray didn't even commit that crime.
But even if that was the case or someone believes that, do we want to live in a society where we allow the government to commit crimes to convict somebody?
And that's a question that I never had, wasn't even thinking about before all this happened.
But now it's been put in front of me.
And I see, you know, one of the reasons we're fighting so hard is this is an incredible opportunity to really expose that this happens in the justice system.
It's not the first time it happened for.
for sure but because this case is so big it could be the last time well Mark it was an honor and a pleasure to have you on one American podcast I hope you'll come back uh and spend more time with us I know you have to get going but I'm looking forward to uh the next uh uh hour or so with with Eduardo that's great thanks so much Chase thanks so much you're welcome by guys all right Eduardo how did you get involved with ESP Nexium Keith Ranieri?
I want to hear the story about how you met him.
I took the personal development program that they offered in Monterrey.
This was probably like more than 16, 17 years ago.
Like most people, you know, I was invited by a friend.
You know, I heard about it and I asked my friend and he directed me to someone.
And, you know, I loved it.
So I kept taking the courses and became a teacher of it.
And here we are.
Yeah.
So what was the process like to become a teacher?
And what made you decide to invest that time in it?
Were you actually looking for new employment?
Was it like a sort of a career decision?
Or was there something that changed in you that inspired you to get more involved?
I think it had a lot of the things that I liked.
You know, I've always liked teaching and I was doing acting at the same time.
And I liked teaching and even more than teaching acting.
I liked the notion of teaching people how to be more aware so that they could be better at their sport or their art.
It had a lot of things that I liked.
And also all of the companies of NXIVM had.
had uh a philosophy that seemed to uh align with mine you know like to um be compassionate and like ethical and all those things that you know we like so it was more like um something that I encountered and it fit with what I thought.
What did you think of Keith the first time that you met him um it was interesting you know because the Monterey Center of ESP has a lot of um um, you know, entrepreneurs and people who are like professionists or people who went to a good college, it's more of a um, you know, because of the courses, they're not you know, very inexpensive.
So people were more entrepreneurs in Mexico or the really the market that takes them.
So it was very elegant and uh really a nice place, and uh with for people that were like an elit.
So I would imagine that Kid was this like I knew he was a scientist and a philosopher and a very success, a very successful entrepreneur.
So I sort of thought he would be you know wearing a suit and a tie and very formal and very like um closed, or I don't know.
And then when I met him, I didn't even know it was him, you know, it wasn't one of the corporate retreats, and we were around the front desk, and it was he was like a guy joking with people and had long hair, he was wearing shorts and he was like being funny, and I didn't even know it was him.
So I liked him when I met him, and then when I realized he was him, I was like, oh well, I guess he's not like I imagine.
Yeah.
So how did you get to know him on a deeper level to the point where you were actually involved in creating a substantial branch of the sort of ESP corporation?
So what happened was that um I took a five day uh for personal reasons.
I wanted to do something, you know, I was struggling with personal relationships or whatever, just like um I wanted to dump a relationship.
You get dumped?
Yeah, like I wanted to I wanted to have a better relationship with my girlfriend, but then I took the course and it helped me with that, and it also sort of like I started questioning a lot of things, and you know, I I realized that I wanted to be an actor, that I had been wanting to be an actor for a long time, and that I had convinced myself that I couldn't do it, but maybe I could.
So I used all of the stuff that I was learning, and I went back to acting and I went back to theater, and I ended up uh being admitted in like an amazing conservatory in New York with Mike Nichols, you know, where he was my teacher and Philip Zimmer Hoffman was my teacher.
There was just like 30 people out of hundreds that applied.
I ended up being admitted into an amazing acting program.
And because of the stuff that I learned in ESP, not only I was admitted, I was doing really well.
I graduated, I got an agent, and I really it was amazing.
I you know, I knew that there was a relationship between self-awareness and all these things and art, you know, and somebody being able to perform well in art or in athletics and self-awareness were related.
I I didn't know exactly how, but I I knew it were related.
And then so at some point, Keith started developing with Allison, an acting company that showed that, you know, the relationship between self-awareness and acting well.
And I was like, I want in on that because that had been my experience, you know, that I used very few tools that I learned in ESP to get an acting career, and I used it for years.
So when that company came about, I wanted to be a part of it, and I ended up getting to know Keith very well and partnering with him.
So what was it specifically?
Because it's it's hard, it's hard to see.
I mean, you can kind of see if you're if you if you're really paying attention, what was going on in ESP that was actually the curriculum.
But it the struggle is that so much of the content around Nexium is is negative press.
So there's there's not a lot of discussion around the specifics of why it was so successful, because it was there 17,000 people don't take five days off of work and pay thousands of dollars if something doesn't work.
Maybe they do for like the first round, but if you fail, like then it doesn't work.
So what was it specifically in the curriculum that actually impacted you in and changed your perspective so that you were you were affecting change in your life?
I think that it had an approach to self-awareness that was not mystical at all.
In other words, anything else that involves self-awareness um had some sort of uninformed mystical aspect to it, you know, even if you go to a class of yoga, which clearly makes you more self aware, at least of your muscles and stuff, you know, it's hard to go and reproduce a result in something in your life that you're struggling with to do it quickly.
That's hard.
And in ESP, you you would have this approach to observing your decision making process and your thoughts and your emotions and your your sensations, your body, you know, like Mark, that was very much um very measurable.
It was like based on okay, so this self-awareness you're experiencing, how is it measuring your results and how is it making you better with the things that you wanted?
So it was a perfect blend between something that's perceived as mystical and something very measurable, which is like goal setting.
So people got very good results and also got uh a great experience of themselves.
So it was, and it was that that's what it was for me personally.
I've never been, you know, very mystical, very religious, and my I never did any personal growth before ESB, but when I took it, it it was about self-awareness, but it was giving me all the things that I wanted in my life.
So that makes that makes sense.
Had you done any other similar type workshops or programs, so this is your sort of first experience.
Or Landmark or this or that.
I can't, you know, I don't know.
Yeah, but people who had done all of those who were part of ESP would always say, you know, it's um it's better, it's he has much more introspection and it's more deep, it's more about the person, and you know, that that was very across the board.
So and I mean, think about why why would someone, you know, people think we're crazy and then we're lying that the FBI did not plan child pornography.
Why would Keith be a good man that was railroaded?
But think about something like that.
You know, Mark um went through his tourette's uh through talk therapy through self-development courses, and there's thousands of people that like have described amazing results.
There's this industry of medicine of victimization of old sorts of, you know, um this is what ESP was a model of, even if it was just uh a little like glimpse of what it could do, that's not something that went with the status quo at all.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I really want to get into your story because there's not a lot of expert people can write off because I spoke with Nikki Klein, and uh like I said, she was just an incredible guest.
I thought she was incredibly articulate.
She spent an extensive amount of time with me on that episode, which I thought was incredibly gracious.
Uh, people can try, though I don't think this is the case at all.
They can try to write off Nikki support for for Keith as someone who was in a romantic relationship with them, like oh, it's just you know, right?
But I mean, I I'm not aware of a romantic relationship between you and Keith Eduardo.
Um so what I really want to do, my my goal, like with the rest of our time, if that's okay with you, is to really hear your human story behind your your dive into working with with this company and what your experience was like during the unraveling.
So obviously Mark Vicente has been um you know a really big part of The Val.
Uh he's in all every episode extensively.
He does um uh a podcast after every new episode of the of this new series.
And I watched the one that he did after episode two uh of the vow, and he actually talked about you quite a bit.
Did you get a chance to watch it, Eduardo?
I did, I just I did, yeah.
Yeah, and one of the things that he brought up was you know how he felt uh very close to you, and obviously you guys are on opposite sides of the coin now.
What was it like for you to see like people that were your closest friends?
Sort of there's like a civil war going on, and you're you're losing you're losing people that you lean on in your life.
Well, what was that experience?
When did you know that things were gonna change between you and Mark?
And I'm not trying to throw Mark under the bus at all during the during this conversation or defame him or insult him or anything like that.
So I just yeah, I just I I just want to talk about that uh as someone who was so close to him.
Tell me about that experience.
Well, you know, um one of the things that the vow left out is that Mark was going around offering uh um this non-disclosure contract to people, this NDA.
Um that was very unlawful.
It was, you know, the vow makes it sound like he was calling me as a friend, and in a way he was, and we were friends, but what he did was um, you know, very bad.
He had this NDA that he had people signed, you know.
He would say, and he said to me and to Nippy, they don't play that part.
But he said, you know, um you're going to hear that the reason why I'm leaving is because I'm going to make movies and other projects and all of that.
But really, there's something going on that I can tell you about, but you need to sign an NDA to hear about it.
So imagine this is like uh a person on the board of directors, uh, a person you admired, a friend that has been, you know, so he tried to collateralize you.
It was collateral.
If you tell anybody about this, then I'll sue you because this he literally did collateral.
Right.
Well, yes, which is the DOS criticism, right?
This so this contract was uh I've signed on NDAs in my life.
This was a peculiar NDA because one of the things it said was that you couldn't discuss the content that Mark was going to share with you in this call, but you couldn't also disclose the existence of the contract itself.
And I was very shocked that you know, I've never had a contract like that, and let alone that my friend was offering it to me.
It was very um suspicious, something felt wrong about it, and then later I realized what it was is what you just said.
It's a bullying tool.
In other words, it's saying, I'm gonna tell you all these bad things about people that I've been saying good things about for a decade and that are your friends, and the company that you and I work for, I'm gonna say horrible things about them.
And if you agree with me, you come in this character as a nation campaign, and we do all these things.
If you don't, you can't talk about what I just told you.
Right, right.
I see.
So when you gave me this contract, and you know, I was having my wedding in Mexico when he made when when he gave me that, and you know, Nippy was acting very erratic, he was very afraid, very angry.
He was saying, You have to sign this thing, you have to deal with Mark has to say.
So I did it.
Um, in the wedding in my weekend of my wedding in Mexico, I signed it.
I had a call with him where he told me, you know, that all these women were being, you know, uh coerced into a sex ring that uh that Sarah had a brand that India had a brand, a brand that that Keith really has was a sociopath that all his companies were bad.
You know, he sounded eschizophrenic, he was like, you know, people are trying to kill me.
I was like, Mark, who's trying to kill you?
You know, we we were just that what is this?
Like he was uh, you know, people are following me.
He sounded completely, he was a different person, and ultimately I listened to him, and he was like, What are you doing?
You know, we're gonna go and do this whole media thing with India's mom, and we're gonna like make it look like she's being saved by her.
And I was like, Mark, Neepy, you guys are describing a character assassination campaign.
Not only am I gonna join it, but I urge you to stop this.
This is gonna hurt a lot of people.
They were convinced that it was the right thing to do, you know, and they went on in the frank report and started writing lies about.
I witnessed Nippy write lies about it, and you know, they were the faming people in the company and the company itself, and they say it in the vowel, the excuse they use is because we wanted to uh bring them away from the cult.
So um, what I did is you know, I told them, Listen, if you were telling me that there are women being branded, like you know, handcuffed and branded with an iron thing and abused.
I come from Mexico.
If that's going on, you go towards that place, you don't go away from it and blog about it.
So I'm gonna go to Albany, I'm gonna fly and I'm gonna talk to everyone involved.
And I did.
I talked to Keith, I talked to Alison, I talked to Lauren, I talked to Nikki, I talked to everyone, and I found out about DOS, And I went and I told Mark and Nippy repeatedly, I said, listen, there is this sorority, they have a secret thing, but it's a good thing.
It's not even let alone criminal or or bad.
It seems to be a good thing.
I told him what you're going to go and put out there in the world, it's a big line.
You're gonna hurt a lot of innocent people.
You should come and talk to Alison and Keith.
There is an explanation to what you're seeing.
The brand that Sarah told you it's this abused thing, it's a sorority that she chose to be in.
You're misinformed.
They never came back to Albany, they never talked to anyone involved.
They went on and they spread this fake narrative until it got to the New York Times and thereby to Moira and the FBI.
So I'm gonna share with you how Mark seems to be based off of the internet HBO content that I've consumed, and I'd really appreciate your feedback as someone who actually know whether or not my interpretation is you think is correct.
Because I'm curious as to getting to getting to the bottom of why this schism for lack of a better term happened.
So I just want to try that.
Okay.
So Mark seems to me like an incredibly kind, talented, intelligent and compassionate person who, whether he is correct or not, does actually believe his current position.
Absolutely.
He thinks he's doing a good thing.
So he's not lying, he thinks he's right.
That's that right.
That's what I'm trying to kind of distinguish.
And so he, out of a sense of responsibility for the vic the people he perceives as victims because of his involvement in the organization, feels a moral duty to rectify the the situation, right?
Right.
So he went and he defamed and slandered knowingly the source, my income of money, and but he thinks it was for my own good.
How much did you make?
You know, it wasn't a lot, but it was a few thousand.
It was it was well, it was a company, it was a startup.
We were starting, but it paid my rent and my livelihood, you know, like and he destroyed it, but he believes, as you're saying, that it was to help us away from the cult.
It was a good it was good with good intent.
When does the last time that you actually spoke with him?
That uh, you know, I had a call with him where where I urged him to come back, and I said, frankly, you know, you sound a schizophrenic.
The thing you're saying, and that you're gonna take to the media and the courts is not true.
Um, that was long ago, years ago.
Um 2017, probably 17, and then uh the trial around 2019, 20.
Um he approached me on the I was online for the trial, and you know, he said that he loved me and he understood that I was being like faithful to Keith, and he was there where I am once, and uh, but he loved me deeply.
He probably does.
Yeah, I mean, whatever it's an explanation, not a justification for what he did, just an explanation.
But you know, people yeah, but you know, the people that he always claimed to love, he went on and slandered and destroyed, so I don't know if I want to be loved by him.
Yeah, do you well?
Do you ever miss him as a you know former friend?
Um, I feel sad that he did what he did.
In other words, for example, he was the absolute guardian of all of the footage.
He went and unlawfully sold the footage to HBO and probably seduced and all those things.
I mean, there's proof of what they were selling.
Um, this is a person who was the guardian, you know.
Thousands of people trusted him and were uh gave permission to be recorded in their journeys in ESP and their classes because they trusted Mark and then he went and sold it for money and put it out in the world.
So when I think of who he was and how he promised, you know, good things and then betrayed the hundreds of people and like did bad things for them.
Um, and then I see him justifying it and believing he's a hero.
I feel you know uh I understand him.
I know that the thing that Bonnie came and told him really like broke him down the middle, and he's like enamored with her and all of this.
I I understand why he went and thought and changed his thinking the way he did, but it's unfortunate, you know, it's sad.
Well, I just think this is interesting to talk about this because when we were talking about the the source in your courses, you you you mentioned the the compassion exercise of trying to empathize with this person that you perceive as doing something evil, uh in order to portray that person better in a performance.
And so, you know, I one of the things that I noticed about our culture today, and it's probably just an outcome of social media and the internet, is that if someone is found to have done something wrong, all of a sudden that person's personal brand becomes the wrong thing that they did, right?
Like Pee Wee Herman could have been given millions of dollars to breast cancer research for decades, but all I know about him is that he got caught beaten off in an adult theater, right?
It's the one bad thing he did that just like erases everything else about him.
And I I tell I tell myself sometimes when I think about this is that people are more than the worst thing about them or the worst thing that they've done.
And so that was sort of why I was trying to kind of give Mark the benefit of the doubt.
Here is if if if one believes that you know they've been involved in something that's just astronomically evil, and there is a there is a reasonable argument.
I don't know that I agree with it or not, but there is a reasonable argument to to do some bad things in order to correct the the problem, right?
Let's like the Machiavellian approach.
Does the end justify the means?
So you know, is it possible that out of a sense of trying to establish justice in this perceived situation that he could have rationalized doing some of the things that you're talking about for the greater good of uh bringing this to justice, right?
Like it doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy that he's doing these things, it he's just he could just be wrong, right?
I think unfortunately people believe on that, and some people are aware of it, some people are not.
Um, one of the other things that the vow did not disclose is that you know, and they have Nancy sort of brushing over it, but Sarah and Nepee and Mark went and committed a crime against Nexium.
They they refunded people, they took uh uh funds and uh extracted them from Nexium unlawfully, and there's even not only a police report in Vancouver, but an admission of guilt about it.
They committed crimes against Nexium, and the judge protected this record because they're doing the greater good, you know, they're they're taking down the devil, so the crime has been completely silenced what they did, even HBO sort of silenced it.
I mean, the same thing that happens with the tampering, you know.
I think deep down people know that the FBI planted the evidence, but the belief the subconscious belief that people have is you know, if the person is bad enough, then let us cheat on him.
No due process, and that's what people believe.
They don't admit to it, but it's true.
There's um maybe I'll send it to you.
But one of the first uh episodes of the podcast that Keith uh recorded from prison, he was actually reading a passage of a book, uh conversation between a prosecutor and a defense attorney, and the defense attorney asks the prosecutor, you know.
Oh, so the prosecutor actually asks the defense attorney, so would you give the devil the benefit of the law?
And uh the defense attorney says, Yes, would you not?
And the prosecutor says, No, I would cut every law in England to go after the devil, you know, and the defense attorney says, Oh, and you know, when the last law is down, and the devil turns around on you.
Where did you where would you hide with all the laws being down?
And this is something that has happened already in the US, you know, even someone like Trump allegedly participated, or his administration on prosecuting Keith Unlawfully.
In other words, he was so hated that everyone was like, you know what?
Forget due process.
Let's get him.
And then the devil is turning round on us, even someone like Trump, you know, we allowed the FBI and federal prosecutors to commit crimes and to plant evidence because the man is so hated, we just want him in jail.
And what we have now is the FBI can plant evidence on us.
We have a ridiculous recus Rico status, and sex trafficking is basically anything you've ever done with your girlfriend.
So we have sacrificed the law in order to go after someone who's very hated.
That actually is the devil turning round on us.
So this notion that you could you're absolutely correct.
People subconsciously, you know, they they think Keith is bad, and it doesn't matter what they what it's done to him, it goes.
Yeah.
So sorry to go so long, and so like no, no, that was a beautiful that was a fascinating.
That was a fascinating answer.
That was that was great.
That was exactly what I wanted to hear hear from you.
Is something that uh in the in that depth?
So why do you think it is that because you know you mentioned that you went to you went to Albany, you you know, talked to some of these women that were allegedly uh involved in DOS and basically came to the conclusion that it was a sorority and it was okay because it was conceptual.
Um, and that you know, even it was even seemed to be helping some of the members.
Why is it do you think that you know, a handful, one or two, three?
I don't know, I actually don't even know the number, but a handful uh of members of DOS became so vehemently antagonistic toward it.
Why does someone like Sarah Edmondson go on a war path to um I think it's different reasons, you know.
Um Sarah, from what I know from being friends with them and what's portrayed in the vow.
Um, it seemed like um Sarah wanted Nippy's attention, and you know, it took him months to realize that she had a brand she had a brand which tells you about the relationship.
Sure.
Um, it a lot of women tell me that she just wanted his attention.
I can't really try it on, but it also makes sense.
Um, I don't know what her ultimate motivations were to go and lie, but uh they seem to be on the realm of personal.
But after that, you know, you have people being threatened by the prosecution, you know.
You you if you don't say that you were a victim of DOS, then you're a criminal in these other charge.
So it quickly evolved into that.
You know, these women of DOS, it's uh these are some of the most successful, intelligent, intelligent, accomplished women.
Sarah was successful.
Sarah, Alison successful actresses, there's lawyers from Harvard and all sorts of great things.
You know, these were women who were saying we are gonna do this edgy thing so that we can keep our word.
Man can do that.
There's the world is like that, but women really can't.
So we're gonna do this edgy thing with this collateral, and we're gonna do it, and we're gonna brand ourselves.
And you know, I can absolutely see why the world doesn't accept it, but this were like sure.
It's shocking to hear.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I you know I don't know, I'm not a woman.
I don't know if I should even say I would have done it, I would have not done it.
It's not up to me, you know.
When when Omega's show the brands on the Super Bowl, it's amazing.
When a woman shows a brand, she was abused, and it was a man.
It's a it's the infantilization of women that we're dealing with.
And you know, Sarah, when the narrative first came out, she was saying, I was pinned down in Albany, and like she was making it sound like she was abused by Keith and branded like a cow, and then it ended up that it wasn't like that.
It was a weird if you want ceremony amongst women with a categorizing pen, which is like a tattoo.
And you know, unfortunately, by the time the truth comes out, already there's all these other falsehood and exaggeration against Keith, and the truth becomes difficult.
Was Keith even there for the branding ceremonies?
He was never in any branding ceremony, never at all.
He was never present or near the locations.
The what the media, this is a good example of many.
What the media says versus what it was really so far, you know, even in the trial, if you go look, there's no branding in the time in the in there's no sex in the trial.
Keith is never had in the trial, there's no accusation of Keith having sex with anyone or being in any branding ceremony or branding anyone.
I don't know.
The sex trafficking charge is two women going down on each other and Keith watching.
You know, the child pornography is a picture that allegedly was taken by him many years ago, and it's planted.
So I'll say one thing about one thing about pedophiles is they don't just have a handful of pictures.
No, the psychological profile is you know, massive collections organized, labeled.
I mean, when you when you actually catch a real pedophile, they've got a whole catalog.
No, this was not that.
This was this is a person that he spent 12 years with, and allegedly they're saying, Well, he took pictures of her too young, and which is you know, again, the FBI modified those dates to make it appear that she was 15.
That's scientifically proven, it's out there.
The best former FBI experts, Alan Dorsowitz, Ron Sullivan, everyone who's who knows law or cyber saying that, but people think they know they don't only know that this is one picture of a of a partner of 12 years, they think this is someone who's messing with children, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Wow.
So did Keith ever actually have the collateral?
No, he never had it.
You know, uh, they they show in the vow how he lied to his company, saying, you know, I'm not involved in DOS.
If you if you to if you look at what was going on in that moment, you know, it was true that he would let alone having the collateral, he was not involved in DOS.
By the time that he made that statement, it was true, and it was a statement that was modified by a lot of lawyers of Nancy and Alison.
It was a complex statement, but when he said, I'm not involved in DOS, it was factually true because he hadn't been involved in it for years.
He was involved in its inception.
Women came to him and say, you know, we want to have this thing, can you help us?
He was like, Okay, I'll be the architect of this house, I'll give you the concepts of this of how you go.
How can I how I think you could go and create a sorority that would give women discipline?
This is what I think you could do.
They went, they did the whole thing for years, including the brand, their idea, you know.
There's recordings of Keith saying, Okay, if you're gonna do a brand, then do it like this and like that.
But this is women forming a sorority, him giving them audio of how to do it, and then for years not being involved in it at all.
And then they're like, Were you involved?
Yes and no, you know, this is um this is women doing stuff with concept of a man.
That's how Keith created all his companies.
Certainly, that's how he created the source, a few concepts, and then people went and developed them.
So did the women know that the brand was was his initials, or do you do not even concede the point?
Um I don't know.
What I've heard is that some women were telling the other women, and some women didn't.
I'm not sure what's true, and because it had like a double interpretation where you know, if you supposedly if you twisted on one hand, it's the elements earth and wind and things like that, and and then it also says KR.
So I imagine some women weren't, and some women were.
I mean, you that's not necessarily Keith's fault, though.
No, and you know, I talked with him about it, and he says, you know, it's it's because I'm controversial because even if they did exactly what this they said they did, even if it was like non-disclose whose initials it was, but it was Brad Pitt or Abraham Lincoln, it wouldn't be a problem.
That makes sense.
Let's say they discovered that really it says BP, Brad Pitt, and she didn't know, it wouldn't be a problem.
Right.
So why do you think it is that the FBI was so uh enthusiastically going after him?
Why why does the why does the state care to have this guy locked up?
Keith has Keith has enemies that are media moguls and politicians and billionaires in the US and in Mexico, their daughters had uh chosen paths in Keith's companies as opposed to in their companies.
So he had bad enemies, and then also, you know, you have the New York Times and all these women and HBO saying this that you have like all these things being said and these documentaries being done, and the prosecution buys it.
And maybe they're colluded with the billionaires and the moguls.
We don't know.
But you know, once they created this big thing, and then they realize there's no proof.
And if you analyze the charges, there's none of the elements was met with evidence, not one of them.
And there they find themselves in the situations where they went and they said this was this massive sex cult, and there's no sex, there's no evidence, and all of the codependents are already standing to defend themselves together.
Well, even if it was a sex cult, a sex cult isn't illegal.
Even if it was being a sex cult.
What they were saying was true.
And then suddenly this child point appears, and everyone please.
Yeah.
It seems to me like um my intuition is that it was a it was a trophy case, right?
There a lot of law enforcement or or prosecution, they just their mouth watered at how good it would be for their career to lock a high profile defendant.
There's absolutely that.
You know, like Moira Moira is the she's the attorney that put Keith Rainier away, and that's a big deal professionally.
She's giving a talk tomorrow at a university of you know, like how awesome she is, and you know, she she colluded, she did perjury, she suburban perjury, she knew about the tampering, she did all sorts of crimes.
She knew about it.
She's a hero.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Just wait until the evidence comes out fully, and the collusion between the prosecution, the agents, and the court, the judge.
You're gonna be, you know, the FBI tampering as historic as it is, as Alan Dorshi would say, it's the tip of the iceberg.
Wow.
So tell me a little bit about what you know of Keith's situation now in terms of uh his experience in prison.
Well, unfortunately, right now he's being retaliated against ever since the tampering was filed, and the agents, the former agents were brought into record, and uh advocates started speaking out.
He was sent to the shoe, he was hit by another prison as a special housing unit, by the way.
It's basically solitary confinement.
Well, he's been in confinement for many months, and um, you know, they seem to be treating him uh you know, worse than what you treat.
They're definitely treating him worse than the person who punched them because he was punched and sent to the shoe, and then the person who punched him was released from the shoe, and he's still in the shoe.
They have scrubbed his uh phone list, you know.
Myself, I was visiting him regularly every two weeks, and you know, they've been making up different excuses with Nikki and Sunil and Mark, and they can always sort of fit it into the narrative why they're not allowing him to be seen anymore.
They they sort of make up this weird excuse that sort of has to do with the criminal case or the civil case, shady with me, not even that.
I'm not on any of the civil or criminal cases, and they're basically saying, you know, because you're a member of Nexum, like a scarlet letter, anti-constitutionally saying, because you are one of 17,000 people who took Nexium courses, you can't see Keith Ranier.
He's being treated, you know, like uh a political prisoner, literally, and the more information he puts out there of how much he was railroaded, the more he's retaliated again.
So, you know, he's lost weight, his health is obviously not well.
Um, he maintains his innocence and his spirit, but it's not healthy.
What's done to him is really bad.
There's been things that are that have been done to him that are torturous, you know, and you have in the meantime the prosecutors, you know, uh uh trowel saying that the accusations are frivolous.
You know, the most renowned just the most the most amazing FBI former agents saying that this is the worst tampering they've ever seen, and uh and the prosecutor's office calls it frivolous, and in the meantime, the prisoner is being tortured.
It's as if this was old Russia, you know, it's worse than North Korea, but we don't know because the FBI and the government control the media as well.
You know, so thank you for this window.
It's it's incredible that this happens.
That part of my motivation is in Mexico, you know, uh I grew up with no justice system.
And I know I don't want that for my children.
Trust me, no one wants that for their children.
A system where the courts are corrupt means every other industry, any other aspect of society can be corrupted.
It's like the bloodstream of a civilization.
If the court is corrupted, anything else that wants to be corrupt will be corrupt.
I don't think that people have you know, they don't see what it means what's happening to America.
I was fortunate, unfortunate to grow up in a country where we didn't have a justice system to know uh that this needs to be stopped.
Yeah.
Wow, it's just like a perfect storm of uh all it was a perfect storm.
So is anybody practicing any of the the Nexium stuff now?
I know that I think technically the federal government owns the intellectual property to all the all the material right or not necessarily.
Nancy gave up uh first principles, which was one company that owned some of the patents, but really it's okay to teach Nexium stuff and we are alive, you know, we are uh here.
Uh every member of Nexium has uh, you know, we're all working uh in freeing Claire and Keith and we don't have a lot of people, a lot of resources.
So I mean, we are alive, but we um we mean to continue what we did, but right now all of the resources have been uh devoted to help our friends who have been wrongfully imprisoned.
Do you think Nancy's really flipped or do you think that she's just trying to recover her credibility?
Um she's trying to save face, and this is something that we know.
You know, she knows she didn't commit a crime.
She has of course, you know, once the government convinces you that you're a criminal, it's in your best interest to change your mind about who Keith was.
But she knows she didn't commit a crime.
She knows she pledged to try to save face, which didn't really work.
But um, you know, she knows she's innocent, and it's unfortunate that she portrayed herself in HBO as someone who's not when she knows she is.
So what do you think the outcome is gonna be ultimately as a human being in the context of all human history that you're familiar with, life experience that you've had.
What where do you think this is gonna be in 2032?
I hope I hope that this reminds people that uh you know, just like Joseph Salam, Dr. Salam said that none of us are safe, that if this can happen to an educated white man with no sex on the whole trial, it can happen to anyone.
You know, I hope people realize that uh society has become draconian, as Ron Sullivan says, and we have uh a justice system that punishes you for prejudice, and uh I hope that the outcome is that we can bring enough attention to this so that we can hold these uh agents accountable, because this is not gonna go away.
We are going to hold these agents and these prosecutors accountable.
Um if that happens, then everyone would learn that you can't do that, that we the people police, the police, that we investigate the investigators, prosecute the prosecutors and judge the judges.
You know, people have forgotten it, but that is our citizens' job.
And the hope is that the sacrifice of our friends of the people of Nexim reminds the people that that's what we need to do.
That when there's an injustice, we go against it and we fix it.
So I mean, because what's the other outcome?
Maybe we s it'll be swept under the rug, and you know, we'll put a standard where like prosecutors can lie and judges can be corrupt or inept and the FBI can plant challenge porn and kidnap an American citizen with a blue passport in Mexico.
The standard, if we don't Do anything about this.
The standard that was set is dangerous.
So my hope is that the end result is that we I see it as you know, day or night, black or white.
Either we change the justice system with this as a precedent, or we set a draconian 1984 type of totalitarian regime that nobody wants.
Sorry, maybe I'm too black and white.
No, no, I I totally appreciate your um your thoughts and response.
And thank you so much for taking the time to come on my podcast and tell the world your side of the story.
I know it's an incredibly difficult thing for you uh for you.
It's a it's a sensitive topic.
There's there's a lot of life history.
I can't imagine what it would feel like to have your life hold out beneath you from beneath you like a rug, and then have to go back and justify you know every inch of that rug.
I I can't imagine if I had to make a case for you know the last 10 years of my life or the last 15 years of my life.
So, you know, my heart is with you there.
And thank you for saying that.
You know, um, part of me feels very grateful.
I'm very purposeful.
I guess like most uh people, or at least uh you know, people I know, we all want to do something great when we look back and we're like, oh, the forefathers, like I wish I was in those great times.
So for whatever reason, I'm in front of a great opportunity to change something great, and I'm grateful for it.
You're right, it's hard, but um I I think I make make the best out of it, and I'm lucky to have a family that supports me, a wife that supports me, and you know, friends that support me.
So um I think that I see what I do as purposeful, but yes, it's been incredibly hard.
People lost their livelihoods, their their medical licenses, innocent people are in jail.
One of them, Keith, you know, at risk of being killed because he's mislabeled as a pedophile.
So it has been incredibly hard, but um also purposeful.
So and thank you, and thank you for the space.
I I I truly believe that with it's with these people like you that have a large amount of followers who have podcasts that that the truth is gonna come out, the mass media.
We you know, we've reached out to all of them, all of the mass media, the New York Times, the MSNBC, this CNN, Fox, they all came to our press conference.
They've all they all know the FBI plan, the child porn, they're just not covering it.
So thank you for doing it and being brave like that.
Absolutely.
Well, it's a pleasure to have you.
And um, if you ever want to come back on again, there is a standing invitation.
You're always welcome to come.
Okay, thank you.
I will, you know, any window that we have, and um, you know, let's make this things viral so that we the people can win.
