When Is Civil War Reasonable? | With Jack Murphy & Chase Geiser
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Music It's one American podcast live with Jack Murphy.
What's going on, man?
Hey, Chase, great to be here, man.
Thank you very much for having me.
It's good to have you on.
I've uh been following you for a long time and very interested in your work and your story of how you came to influence in the space that you're in.
And I don't I don't really classify it as any particular space because there's several different elements to what you do.
So I'm reluctant to use any specific word.
I don't want to describe you as right wing or a self-help guru or anything like that.
Um you're just Jack Murphy, similar to how I am, just one American.
So uh tell me tell me a little bit about like how this journey started for you.
Was it with the the um book that you wrote?
I think it's called uh deplo uh Democrats are deployed from Democrats Deplorable.
Yeah, Democrats are deplorable.
Well, I mean, it's I appreciate you saying that there's no one particular way to put me in a classification.
And it's true.
Um I never set out to be a conservative, you know, influencer or a self-help guru or anything.
I basically started on this journey just by asking questions.
And the question started back in 2009 or so when I got divorced and I had been married.
Sorry, you had to go through that.
Yeah, you know, well, it was one of the worst and best things that ever happened.
Um I had to um I had to figure out what was going on in the dating world and in the single life world and in that I was uh 34, I guess.
Okay.
Is that right?
Yeah, 34.
And uh, you know, I had been in a relationship for like 10 years, and I didn't know what had happened in the dating world.
Like nobody had cell phones all the time.
I mean, I remember my wife and I got our first like Nokia's, right, while we were together.
So, like smartphones weren't a thing, Tinder wasn't a thing, match.com, okay, cupid, none of that.
So I got dumped into the the single life in my mid-30s after you know, raising two small children and just being totally, you know, ensconced in and really in a in a blue liberal like uh marriage.
And um I had to figure it out.
And I started learning about the dating mating market and seeing how it was kind of screwed up.
And in doing so, I began to learn about feminism and learning about, you know, I guess we call it critical race theory now or gender queer theory or race Marxism or whatever the latest uh name is for it.
But I just started to to figure out how the dynamics between men and women had changed and why and the philosophy is behind that.
So I just started asking questions.
And first place that led me through was through the manosphere, where I think that there's a lot of good information there for guys trying to figure out how to become better men, how to how that being a better man is basically the answer to all of the issues, you know, getting fit, you know, taking care of yourself, self-improvement, become financially secure, etc.
Uh, but that's a space you don't really want to stay in forever because there's a lot of toxic people sort of stuck in that in that sphere.
Right.
And uh I began to just understand the way that politics and dating and relationships and marriage and everything was all intertwined.
And uh that's when I really started to get, as you would say, red pilled, right?
So 2012, 2013, 2014, just started learning, right?
And and reading and trying and coming to understand how much feminist ideology had taken over in the universities and how much uh the Democratic Party was swinging wildly towards this progressive ideas, how much things like Title IX on college campuses affected relationships between uh,
you know, young adults and uh and how the power of the federal government was being used to coerce people and to terrify them and to you know change the definition of harassment From uh, you know, something that that prevents you from working or getting an education all the way down to just something that you're annoyed by, right?
Seeing how due process was stripped away from young men on college campuses.
And and inevitably that leads you into politics if you keep pulling on the same string.
You keep pulling and pulling and pulling, and then Donald Trump happened.
And uh, you know, it was 2015 campaign uh time and it was Trump versus Hillary Clinton.
And after all the things I had learned about progressive ideology on the left and how anti-American it was and how anti-individualistic it was, and how anti-male it was.
Uh there was only one choice.
It was Donald Trump.
And uh that was uh that in and of itself was a huge awakening for me to spend my whole life Democrat, voting Democrat, living in Democrat City, Washington, DC, always thinking that the Democrats were on the right side of everything, you know, they were in my mind.
I thought they were for freedom and and being yourself and individuality.
Well, they kind of used to be.
Kind of used to be.
And then what a shock it was to find myself supporting a Republican.
Was he the first Republican that you supported?
First Republican I ever supported for sure.
Were you behind him in the primary too, or was it the general that you kind of came on board?
Oh no, definitely from the jump.
Um, because I don't, you know, I'm still not a fan of GOP establishment.
I'm not a fan of the bushes.
I'm not a fan of any of the standard fair Republican, uh, you know, what do we call it now?
We call it uh, you know, uh like the rhinos or the yeah chamber of commerce, uh libertarian rhino types, like yeah.
Yeah.
And those were the guys that I always laughed at and made fun of and thought were fake and were sold out shills to corporate America, which which they are.
Um, and uh there I was a lifelong Democrat turned uh a deplorable.
And it's interesting because the name of the book isn't Democrat turned Republican Voter, right?
It's horrible.
So specifically around the way Donald Trump was pushing back really against the entire establishment.
It was him against all 17 of the GOP primary candidates.
It was him against the Democrats, it was him against national security apparatus, it was him against basically all the people that we had identified, you know, coming up through you know, blog sphere and the man sphere and the Twitter space had had identified as being you know the problem.
And uh, and man, that really just sent me down a journey, you know.
Um I you know attended all the events that you could go to, the deplorable and a night for freedom and conferences and any kind of meetup happy hour I could, and just got to know all the people in the space and I made friends with people who at the time had you know very small followings who now have you know a couple million followers and massive you know national influence.
And as they grew in uh stature and power, you know, I kind of went along uh with them and and was able to find my own voice and uh put out the book and start the podcast and just keep asking questions, right?
The podcast is just me asking questions of people.
You know, I've had political people on, I've had academics on, I've had entrepreneurs, tech guys, fitness people, nutritionists, whomever.
You know, it's just about me following my own sense of curiosity.
And uh man, you know, it it exploded, really exploded finally when I both uh got the Claremont uh Lincoln Fellowship as well as started making regular appearances on Tim Pool.
And then from there, man, you know, you get to the point where you know, you walk down any main street in any city in America, and somebody's like, hey, holy shit, Jack Murphy.
And that just blows my mind, going from just a guy asking questions on the internet, uh, posting anonymously, using a pseudonym, to being basically like famous in any city I go to in America.
It's crazy.
We got the signature look too.
You know, you've yeah there's only a few people in the world that really pull off like having a brand that is a look too.
Trump is actually an example of one, I think.
But like even if you think of celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio's famous because of the roles that he's played, but he doesn't have like a look that's a brand.
Alec Baldwin doesn't have a look really that's a brand.
He is maybe a voice that's a brand, but like it's something that's unique about you that I appreciate as somebody who's in the advertising space for my actual income is is that you've like set you've you've established this, I don't know, just awesome aesthetic brand that just strikes right through, you know.
Well, it's cutting out it's uh I appreciate that, but uh totally not by design, right?
Sure, sure.
You know, like 10 or 12 years ago, uh, a girl I was dating was like, You ever tried growing a beard?
And I'm like, no, and I tried, and here it is.
Anything for you, babe.
It was it was all brown back then, and just like slowly but surely this gray is creeping in, and I can't stop it.
I imagine eventually it'll be Santa Claus style.
And if it does get there, that's maybe not the aesthetic look uh I'd be looking for.
But uh yeah, I guess all these things just added up, you know, they just stacked on top of each other and you become memorable looking and do memorable things and do and say some crazy shit, and before you know it, uh, you know, you're kind of famous or infamous and and right, yeah.
Never a goal.
Uh, I don't recommend it.
Uh it's uh has a lot of downsides, but uh being able to leverage that into spreading, you know, a good word, which is really about just taking care of yourself, taking care of your family, taking care of your community, you know, being uh someone who builds and creates and protects and provides and isn't gonna just sit back and and believe the things that you're told to believe,
and is willing to ask the questions to figure out what it is that you really believe is true, and then to embody that in your in your day-to-day life, and then to hopefully embod uh uh manifest more of that uh in the people around you, uh, starting especially with your children.
So, you know, that's the general gist of my work.
And you know, if people are gonna jump on and follow me on this way, great.
If not, um, you know, more power to you.
Uh plenty of haters out there, you can just keep on hating.
Yeah, so you mentioned at the beginning of uh of the conversation how you know your divorce and sort of looking into feminism and things of that nature sort of got you started on this journey.
And I want to ask you what your definition of feminism is, because it's one of those words like racism where it used to mean one thing very specific, and now it's sort of like thrown around.
So when I think of feminism, I think of it in terms of like I try to think of it in terms of what it actually means, even though I know that colloquial, that's not really colloquially, that's not really what it means anymore.
So it used to mean if you were feminist that you believe that men and women should have equal rights.
And now we're in a society in which legally speaking, men and women do have equal rights.
In fact, there's probably in terms of civil court or civil law, there's probably more advantages to being a woman than a man at this point.
Definitely, but but feminism now sort of what it really means is like a feminazi, right?
Someone who's just like, you're meant, you know, you're the patriarchy, you man, you're a pig or whatever, you're so privileged, I'm I'm I'm so oppressed, and just kind of like man, I hate to use this word, but just cunty, right?
I mean, this is a strong word, and I I use that word very selectively, maybe only a handful of times in my life.
Like a sledgehammer, but that's really what it like is now, right?
And so I'm a feminist in the traditional sense.
I believe men and women should have equal rights, but I'm not a feminist in the contemporary sense.
I know there's like first wave and second wave.
So, what do you mean by feminism and what type of feminism did you determine or discover to be problematic?
Sure.
Uh I agree with so much of what you said.
And and my understanding about feminism is has evolved as well as it has evolved, right?
So yeah, do I believe that women should have the right to vote and get uh checking accounts and credit cards and be independent and make their own decisions?
Of course.
Uh and in my book, Democrats are the plorable, I have a whole long chapter on this, and I talk about that very clearly.
Uh the original feminist concept, I think is a good one.
And and I know that I want my daughters to have all the same rights and opportunities as my sons.
Easy.
Uh, but then I began to understand that um radical feminist literature, which really creates the intellectual and academic space for the political feminism to and the cultural feminism to explode.
Um, these are people that wanted to destroy the family.
They want, you know, uh Judith Butler, if I can recall the name correctly, and her original text back in the 60s.
We wanted to destroy the family.
They want to destroy the idea of what it means to be masculine or the idea of what it means to be feminine.
Uh they've championed the ideal woman to look like the ideal man, uh, and the ideal man then to look like the ideal woman, because what they want to do, and which I've learned over time through lots of study, uh, is that it's this is really a deeply philosophical question.
And it's about changing the plane of meaning.
And therefore, you can change reality in this way.
So, for example, right?
Aristotle uh with his uh with the virtues and magnify magn magnanimity to be the magnanimous man, you know, there there were a set of virtues there that he believed if you lived this way in this life, you would find meaning and be the best political citizen you could be.
Uh then fast forward, I'm skipping over a ton, but you get into like Hobbes and Locke, and they start talking about how uh avoiding a violent death or life, liberty, and property are the ways in which you understand the world, and then you can build a political economy, like a universe uh in reality off of that.
Uh, you've got uh Nietzsche who believes that uh, you know, vitality and creativity and the will to power is is the plane of meaning uh that you should use to analyze the world.
And I don't think anyone's developed a political economy based on that just yet, but it's possible.
Heidegger Heidegger has uh his you know understanding of the world, starting with Dasein, starting with uh the first understanding of self before you even are aware of who you are.
Uh and that there's a political economy devised off of that.
That's Alexander Dugan's fourth political theory, uh, and so on.
But here we are now at this identity theory, where identity is this plane of meaning.
It's no longer to be magnanimous man, it's no longer to live a life of uh uh life, liberty, and property.
It's no longer a life of vitality and strength, or in Machiavelli's terms and in of courage.
This is about identity, and everything can be analyzed through the lens of identity.
And then on this pole of identity, you have oppressed and oppressors.
And so from there you build a political economy.
So the feminism itself, you know, you throw it around casually at Thanksgiving, and your aunt's like, of course I'm a feminist.
But if she truly understood that it was it's a philosophical, you know, ploy to redefine the way that we understand the world in order to redefine and and and recreate a political economy based on that, not a political economy,
but uh a political philosophy, uh, and the and a political space based on that plane of meaning, which then will have as just contained therein, you know, the oppression of men, the the obliteration of the oppressors.
And of course, the only oppressor in this uh equation is the you know, white heterosexual says whatever dude.
And masculinity is the root of the power of those men, and therefore must be destroyed.
So if you really study it, if you read what they write, and James Lindsay's been terrific at doing this, if you read what they write and what the plan is and what the goals are, you see it for the nefarious plot that it is to actually it's so well documented because so much of it is in the academic sphere.
Whereas the other the other side of the political dynamic is more of like an intuitive, just sort of conservative, like, hey, that's not right kind of thing.
There's not a lot of like Republican professors writing books and papers that are peer-reviewed about like, you know, not even not even about like the the pros of capitalism anymore.
You can hardly find economists writing about capitalism like Milton Friedman, say whatever Greenspan, right?
So it's like so well documented what the enemy, so to speak, is is doing, you know, and it on in so many facets.
Yeah, well, they lay it all out right there for you.
And then the funny part is is when you read it back to them, they freak out, and then you get banned off of social media or you get you get fired from your job or whatever, and you're like, yeah, but dude, I'm literally just reading this text that you wrote, you know, and it's uh it's a strange phenomenon of putting everything out there in the open, but then hoping nobody really pays attention to it.
And um, you know, it's it's it's truly a fight for the way that we perceive reality and the way that we construct a uh political space based on that perception of reality, which contains in it concepts of justice, right?
Like it's okay to defend yourself in a Hobbes-Lockey and Jeffersonian sort of way, because the right to living, the right to life is the most important fundamental concept in that in that uh ideology.
So you can defend yourself, of course.
But if the most important philosophical concept in your construct is the oppressor or oppressee, you know, um dichotomy, then anything you do to eliminate that oppression is then just.
And that could include uh anything From you know, fewer honors and prestige, less opportunities, less money, outright discrimination, harassment, perhaps in, you know, jail or even death.
You know, it depends on how far it goes.
But if the concept of justice is embedded in the oppressed oppressor relationship, then that's a terrifying place to be.
And that that's that's where my understanding is today, and that's what I'm opposed to, and that's what I don't want to see spread anywhere.
And the answer, you know, there's there's so many different levels that this has to be tracked on.
Uh, but for me, Jack Murphy, uh, who is not a political player, who is not, you know, even a giant media player or anything, it's really about starting with myself, my family, and then building a community of people around me that see things the same way.
And uh I was just tweeting today, you know, Reagan said that all meaningful change in America begins at the dining room table.
And I still believe that.
And I believe that our long road or long march through the institutions also begins at the dining room table.
And it took the the progressives, what, five, six decades to take over all the institutions in America, media, corporations, advertising, you name it, government, everything.
Um, it's gonna take us maybe that much time too.
But with technology being what it is, the development of these technologies that mediate all of our relationships, be they financial, be they personal relationships, be they information relationships, if the technology that mediates these relationships, and it's not even the outright ones that you see.
It's like the the glue that holds the society together that makes the transactions happen, that allows information to flow.
If the if the technology that mediates those relationships and creates the fabric of the community uh become captured by progressive ideology and then have that embedded in their code, well, then you know, it may be a one or nothing race uh to control those items.
Because once once they're already in place, I don't know how they get eradicated.
And this is a line of thinking that comes to me uh through many interviews and discussions and reading with John Robb, uh, who's a technologist and a military guy, a strategist, uh former special forces dude who has been involved in this, this this cutting edge area of technology, war, and politics for a couple of decades.
And uh he calls that the long night.
So we need a long march through the institutions, but uh the technological race is um perhaps has a shorter timeline than the long march would allow.
So it's not necessarily a super positive outlook when you look at it from that perspective, which is why I just focus.
Start with yourself, get yourself into shape, saving the world starts in a squat rack, move the weight, eat the food, get outside.
Make your bed right as Jordan Peterson would say.
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, Jordan Peterson, yeah.
What do you have problems?
Do you have problems with Jordan Peterson?
Uh it's okay.
You know, I have mixed, I have mixed feelings about Jordan Peterson.
Um, I remember in 2016 or 17 when he made his first appearance on Joe Rogan.
Um I was moved by listening to him.
Um it it was emotional reaction that I had because it was the first time I had heard somebody with uh real academic and psychological and theological background uh express the same sentiments that I had had and that the guys in our little sub-sub- niches online had had in a context that chunked it up into uh uh just meaning,
real meaning, not just um us saying, hey, this is a problem, this really sucks.
We should change this.
And then he came in and he he put it in a context that if anybody was listening, they could relate to and understand.
So it was it was um uh powerful for me in that respect because it finally crystallized uh everything that we had been talking about for many years in the manosphere, many years in our Twitter sub- niches and all this.
Um and uh yeah, I mean, the only bad thing I, you know, would say, and this is you know, is is he is he living life?
I I don't know, but I do know it's difficult to always be perfect, and it's certainly difficult to always uh be living um with such an intense spotlight on him.
But you know, He he asked he asked for it.
And uh, you know, I feel for the guy.
Um, if he's having, you know, drug problems or emotional issues.
Um, I I don't think he's in val or I don't think he's not valuable anymore.
Although I gotta be honest, I don't really pay attention to what he's doing.
It's been a couple of years since I really paid attention.
But I do know that his his appearance on 2016 to 2017, I started balling when he had like you know, 40,000 followers or whatever, and now he's millions of people worldwide famous.
Um, he was a phenomenon.
And uh we should all be indebted to him for him bringing these issues, giving them an academic context, giving them a psychological context, giving them a historical context, and then getting them out there in the world and then trying to spread a good message.
Um I see him as a fellow traveler for sure.
So this is not what you said, but this is my interpretation of what you just said.
So set me straight, okay.
If I'm wrong.
So what you're saying, what so what you're saying is right, right, exactly.
Which is great, uh great idea.
Jordan Peterson joke.
So this is not what you said, but my interpretation of what you said is you're a big fan of Jordan Peterson in the beginning, but very disappointed to discover that he had an addiction problem because it seemed hypocritical that someone like him saying what he says would allow himself to like fall into that trap.
Is that is that like is that what this is?
I I give I give I am I am not uh I'm not like condemning the guy for having a drug problem.
I mean, sure, you know, I I at times in my life have had issues with substances years, many, many years ago.
And you know, it it happens, right?
It happens to people.
Um and and it's you know it's it's tough to judge somebody for I I don't even know the whole story, right?
So that's sort of that's sort of the last, you know.
That's not a criticism I really want to levy at him.
Okay.
I I qualify all this by saying I literally stopped paying attention to him a couple of years ago.
Yeah, well, like well, I guess I'm what I'm trying to get is like what put your fire out for with him.
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think maybe just uh, and and this happens to me with a lot of things, is that uh unless it's novel to me, I lose I lose interest.
I had that with Gary V when I started my business.
I couldn't get enough Gary V, and now I don't care because I've heard it.
Right.
Yeah, right, right.
And so, you know, that happens with all kinds of stuff.
And you know, I'm I'm the type of guy that will discover something new, pour myself into it a thousand percent until I've reached like 90% mastery, well enough at it to teach somebody about it, execute it, and then you know, I just uh am interested in something else.
And that that's the overall theme of my work too, which is keep asking questions, get to a level of mastery with it, and then ask more questions, ask him new questions.
This this is why I'm bored today with politics.
Like I'm I'm bor I'm bored with politics.
I feel like the table has been set and defined, and all the pieces on the table have now been defined.
You know, it was it was sort of up in the air.
Uh 2015, 2016.
It was like unprecedented, yeah, it was unprecedentedly exciting.
Yeah, and it was a new uh new information environment, and it was there were new players and new forces that had been bubbling up over time and new waves crashing on the shore.
And I feel like that all that's already happened.
And yeah, we know about these issues.
Yeah, we understand the the dynamic between the right and the left.
Yeah, we understand what the real political issues are, but it's nothing new now.
Um, you know, God bless Chris Rufo, love Chris.
He's doing great work.
Uh I want him to keep doing it.
Um, but you know, that's it's not novel anymore.
It's not uh it's not a new thing to discover.
And um, I don't see any big changes coming.
At least I'm maybe not tuned in to the deepest of the deep undergrounds to see what's coming these days.
Um, but you know, I think I am.
And um, you know, politics has me left a little a little bored.
Um it's not about discovering something now.
It's just it now it's just the roll your sleeves up and duke it out part, which is not the part that I've ever been interested in.
I'm much more interested in the the meta story, the systematic story, the the decades long journey through philosophy to get to where we are and why.
And um, you know, my I find myself wandering mentally towards you know, what what's the future?
What's the what's what's it gonna be like in 10 years?
What's the 2015 of 2030 gonna be?
And uh that that would get me exciting to think about that.
So, you know, in the meantime, you know, it's double down on the kids, double down on community, double down on taking care of yourself, double down on your relationships, um, double down on becoming financially independent.
For some people, land and water, you know, independent.
Uh, for all of us, information, informationally sovereign, you know.
Uh, one thing that I think Jordan said that Young said, which is um people don't have ideas, ideas have people.
We don't want to be those guys, right?
You don't want to be the guy who's been captured by a mind virus.
You want to be somebody who can stand back and and analyze what's right for them and then make the right choice.
So that's sort of the the phase that I'm in.
And uh, you know, I'm always looking for the next exciting thing, but I don't see any new ideological plates coming into this sort of tectonic collision, uh, whereas before they were submerged and new and novel and people didn't really understand it.
But now you've got mainstream vanilla ass Republican senators talking about the need to build more masculine men and this and that.
So our work is done here when it comes to that.
I mean, I've been involved in the masculinity space or manosphere or whatever since 2009.
And now the things we talked about back then are literally on the floor of the Senate and in presidential races and coming out of the mouths of you know anchors on national television and whatnot.
So, you know, that that part that part is done.
We we did our we did our work there.
And um, I think a lot of it has to do with the way the uh the manosphere stuff exploded onto Twitter, and then from there, combined with gamergate and a few other things, really exploded, and then these ideas spread throughout uh the sort of alternative conservatives, let's say, and then uh and then has now become a little bit more mainstream.
So uh it's been an amazing thing to watch, actually.
Um thinking about I'm thinking about doing a deep dive project on that, the the experience of the early manosphere translating into contemporary politics and uh the influence that it's had on society, whether people know it or not.
Yeah, well, and I think one of the things that's most fascinating about Twitter is that when you look at it from like a data analytics standpoint, or even from an entrepreneurship sort of investment standpoint, it's really not at all an accurate reflection of how people feel in the United States, like countrywide.
You know, there's there's a very specific type of person on another right or the left, it's active on Twitter.
I'm one of those, right?
But at least I at least I know that nobody else cares except for the other people on Twitter, right?
But that the impact that it has on the political conversation and the national conversation is so disproportionate to the actual people that it represents, you know, like I I wonder what the real conversations ought to be, if not just sort of these, I don't know, radicalized sort of branded uh notions that that were that we're uh um seeing on you know, trend.
Abs absolutely.
You know, it's sort of like in the information landscape, you've got the info aristocracy who then who then like argue with themselves and debate things, and then that spills over into practical politics.
And I I would argue that the the Twitter space is like that, right?
It's an info aristocracy.
It's it's people whose jobs are to deal with an information, to transmit information, to create information, disinformation, misinformation, to promote narratives.
Uh it's a narrative aristocracy, right?
It's it's the few controlling the many through the power of narrative.
But you're right in the sense that uh, you know, it's it's so interesting when people are like, Twitter's not real life, like, okay, correct.
But including, yeah, it's definitely fucking with real life.
It is.
So are most people on Twitter?
No.
Are even the people who are on Twitter on Twitter all the time?
No.
It's and are the people who are on Twitter content Creators.
No, such a small percentage of the people in the country are content creators on Twitter.
And then a small percentage of the slightly bigger, but small percentage of them are reading it.
But that being said, every single politician, every single policy advisor, every single political animal, every single media person, everybody who has an influence over the common person is on Twitter, is influenced by Twitter, and their policies are affected by it.
They go into law, the money moves around, penalties get handed out, cultural change takes place, and people lose their jobs.
it's fascinating.
It is, it is an info aristocracy is what it is.
Which is interesting because it's an aristocracy that you can elect to be a part of, right?
Yeah.
Just give your time.
Just do your time, work at it, even just participate by observing.
But most people don't.
And I think that that's a vibe that I'm trying to put out right now, too, which is like, yo, y'all are angry on here, but yeah, everybody's this angry, bro.
Like just like we were in Knoxville, for example, the other day.
I see this one thing I I have going for me too.
I travel all over the place.
Like in last year, I went to like 20 plus states.
We did events in nine different cities.
I travel with baseball for my son, growing with my daughter.
We are driving all over the country all the time.
Big cities, small cities, country cities, what ups.
We're just in Knoxville.
You just talk to people, but they're all happy.
But you know, generally people aren't walking around in a constant state of enragement, as a lot of people are on Twitter.
And um, you know, it's it's deeply ironic to be on Twitter being like, yo, bro, you got to get off of here.
Yo, you gotta get off of Twitter, you gotta get off of social media, go outside, talk to your neighbor, see some sun, see some land, travel across the country, talk to the person at the gas station.
Everybody has their own day-to-day practical issues you gotta deal with, whether they don't make enough money or shit costs too much or whatever.
But I think those are the real issues that people are worried about.
They're not constantly enraged all the time.
I got a good example of of that this week.
I have a close friend who I uh I play video games with from time to time.
We've been I met him online playing video games in 2019, 2018.
He's younger than I am.
I think he's 21 or 22 now.
And he's like, How's everything been going?
How's your podcast?
And I go, dude, I'm so excited.
I got Steve Bannon coming on.
You know, it's like so stoked.
He's like, who's that?
You know, he's just a regular American dude.
He's he's an electrician, you know, a young guy.
He plays video games like a normal dude, just got engaged, you know, looking for a house in Paris, Texas, whatever, right?
Normal American dude, not like dumb or anything.
He's not ignorant, he's just busy doing other shit that's more important to his life than them.
You know, and so I think you're right.
It's like that's just a I don't know, it's just an example of what we've been talking about.
Right.
And and Bannon, of course, is so popular within our space that he's an amazing influence.
And even to think in even uh for folks on the left, even those who are involved in this arena still know who he is.
So I think most people don't really have any idea who Steve Bannon is.
Uh, I think most people don't really care.
I think most people don't even know who Alex Jones is.
And like sure most people are literally just going to work, taking their kids to baseball practice, coming home, having dinner, and going to bed, and not spending all day on Twitter and social media.
Now that's not to say that it's not important because, bro, if you want to be involved in the narrative arena, you have got to be on social media.
You have got to be putting out narratives or counteracting narratives or putting out information or gathering a tribe.
It's uh it's like a double-edged sword, and it's uh it it giveth and it taketh.
Yeah, that is that is for sure.
But one thing it does give that I wish people would uh be more aware of is rage, just rage.
Just it's it's a combination of the subject matter, right?
Like you can really hype up political issues into rage-inducing things by selecting edge cases, blowing them up and making it seem like it's happening to everybody all the time.
Then it's also rage-inducing, too, because it's like, you know, how when you're I mean, for me as a big guy, I notice very clearly how people treat me differently when they're in their car versus how they do when they're standing next to me, right?
Like people will cut me off on the highway, but literally treat me the exact same in both those scenarios.
But literally, but literally no one is cutting in front of me in line in person, right?
Right.
And like and like Twitter is the same.
Twitter is like a hundred times more than the difference between real life and the car, right?
It's like you're not only bulletproof in a vehicle, you're bulletproof, you're most you're you're a non, it's a million miles away, it's just text.
So that induces it's like it's like people are inserting themselves into uh a constant um road rage scenario around politics and then treating everybody that they come in contact with uh as you would giving the dude the finger laying on the horn or whatever in a highway road rage incident.
And you know what, man, that can't be good.
I can't see good.
So let me ask you this.
When is when is rage good?
If ever it's a good question.
Like as a man, when should you just be fucking enraged as a citizen, a man, whatever?
I think rage implies a certain loss of control.
Um, so probably never.
Um justified anger, um, you know, controlled aggression, sure, there's definitely times for that.
Times to be aggressive.
I think you know, just to be semantic here, I think rage specifically involves a loss of control, uh and and a disregard for potential consequences.
So I would say never rage, probably not a good thing.
Uh, but to be justifiably angry, absolutely.
And if you want to let that um uh motivate you, sure, but let it motivate you in a positive way.
You want to capture that anger and in many cases today, justifiable anger and channel it into something positive.
Alternatively, there are other philosophical approaches where you could just disregard things.
Oh, imagine that.
Imagine not getting enraged by something you don't like and just actually forgetting about it, right?
Yeah, like that that could really benefit most people who don't have productive avenues to channel their um aggression.
Now, if you have productive avenues, if you're the type of person that can take anger and turn it into something valuable, productive, and healthy for you and the people around you, awesome.
We all need to find ways to keep our edge and stay motivated and whatever.
Some people use fear, some people use love, maybe some people use anger.
But to lose control and to without any regard for the consequences, I think is bad.
And that's why I've been lately uh really critical of this talk of national divorce, right?
Uh people openly advocating for succession, people openly advocating for they call it peaceful, but come on, bro, like we're not stupid here.
Like walking away from the the union.
And um, I have a lot of concern about that because one, I think some of the people who are promoting those ideas are just deliberately being provocative.
Um some of them are academics uh and theoreticians who are like, yeah, you guys go ahead, go ahead.
National divorce, get out there, do it.
Yeah, on paper, this looks great.
You get what you want, we get what we want.
That's how it would play out.
Exactly.
Well, it's an easy trap to fall into too, because everybody wants to say fuck you to the other guy.
Yeah.
So like emotionally, and I've fallen into this trap too.
I'm almost positive that I've tweeted content like pro-Texas secession in the past.
But when I think about it rationally, like it's absolutely a last resort.
Like there's nothing but violence and and problems that come from that.
Like I know that, but it's just easy on Twitter to like have that emotional kind of impulsive reaction to be like, fuck you, like you know, it's Texas is better with that, you know.
It's just an easy thing to like think and feel and do.
So I've caught myself doing that too for sure.
Yeah.
Definitely.
And that, and that is part of, and I want to come back to this topic in particular, but that is part of the rage machine that is Twitter.
Yeah, like, dude, I've I have like 100,000 tweets, right?
Like I've seen how every tweet can play out.
And and I know you've been through the ringer, man, just generally.
I've seen I've seen all sides of the things.
Cheers to you, man.
Um, I know that if I tweet about Antifa and Mobs and whatever, or trannies or whatever, huge engagement.
If I tweet about like take a deep breath, calm yourself, love your kids.
Yeah, 17 likes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So uh there is a incentive.
Um, And for people who are monetized on Twitter, a literal financial feed your kids incentive to throw rage into the machine.
And that, and that's part, that's part of the problem.
It's part of the problem.
But back to the national divorce thing, I mean it you're right.
It sounds it sounds like something that could be pulled off, but it really isn't.
And I think we have every obligation in the universe to uh a moral obligation to make that the absolute last resort period.
Literally all options exhausted.
And by that I mean like things that we haven't even come close to considering, right?
Like I'm with I'm with you on that, but where would the line be for you?
Like if you if you were to draw a line, and I know this is like almost an impossible question to answer, but I'm just curious because since people are throwing around national divorce so much, that there's no clear indicator of where the actual line is.
So is it when they come to your front door and demand your firearms, or is it when they increase your taxes to 75?
Like, how bad do things have to get before before you as someone who despises the notion of national divorce?
How bad would things have to get before you would think that it was appropriate?
It's a good question.
And you know, you put I don't really have an answer for that.
Yeah, I'm sorry to put you on the spot.
I know that's tough.
But I've been thinking about that too.
Yeah, I don't, I don't really have an answer.
And of course, people will be like, you know, that's the whole point, man, the boiled frog before you know it did.
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you know, man, like what it what did it take?
What did it take?
Lincoln, like something, right?
Like an actual attack where people are getting killed and whatever.
Uh it wasn't the revolution was a tea tax.
The revolution was a tea tax, right?
T is too expensive.
Fuck these presidents.
Well, I mean, look, I I've been I have been guilty of being like, yo, the republic is dead.
Yo, like the founding fathers revolted over like one percent less than any of this.
Although conceptually, the revolt was really about there's more going on.
People were getting tarred and feathered.
I mean, there was a lot of turmoil going on.
But not even that.
It was a philosophical question of not being treated like an English citizen.
I mean, like, come on.
So, like, and and the rights and and honors and benefits that that come with it.
They were second class.
And that was just a philosophical position that they couldn't stand with, which irrespective of whatever fucking tax, irrespective of whatever T, it was a philosophical question.
We don't, we are not being granted the rights of of citizens.
Like that's that's the philosophical question to fight over.
And that and that wasn't implied.
That wasn't we're surmising this.
It was explicit.
It was explicit.
Right.
Uh, so when it comes to the United States, I don't know, dude.
Uh, there's a part of me that wants to say it's pornography, you'll know it when you see it.
Um I I don't know.
I know that we're not there yet.
And I know if you go out into you know regular America and you ask people, should we have a succession and civil war and uh take up arms against our cousins and brothers and maybe kill somebody's daughter and all this, you know, I think the answer is probably pretty clear.
When you put it in those kind of terms, um, you know, the the progressives, they had a long march through the institutions.
We can do the same process.
I think I think process is important.
I think if anyone is not enheartened and heartened, is that a word?
Uh inspired, I don't know.
Inspired, there we go.
Uh professional word guy here.
Um the opposite of disheartened, right?
And heartened um by the process victory represented by Dobbs and Roe.
I don't know what to tell you, right?
Like people wanted to change overturn row, Federalist Society wanted to do it.
Lots of people got involved.
They worked for years to elect the officials that would confirm the judges and vote for the president that would nominate the judge, etc.
etc.
And then there was a process victory, a major process victory.
Uh I've seen other indications to say that there are process victories occurring as well.
The uh the appellate judge that struck down the that basically struck down the mask mandate, that was huge because it took it took a um uh struck a blow at the administrative state, and basically that being that uh the the legislation used to create these agencies who then make their own rules, which are basically laws and make all these executive decisions that weren't granted to them, they it struck a blow at that.
And the administrative state is one of our biggest issues.
So there's process victories to be had.
And I'm still in the mindset of wanting to win those process victories, uh, rather than say, okay, let's figure out who's gonna kill each other the most and the best in order to see who's in charge of the country.
And you know, anybody that talks about national divorce or succession or peaceful, peaceful, you know, no one's ever been through a divorce who says that, first of all.
And second of all, uh there is embedded in our national identity is the precedent for how to handle succession.
Like America is defined by that.
You can't, you just can't.
Like we can't have You can't do it without violence.
Well, you can't, you cannot succeed, secede without you cannot secede.
I think that's like the general fundamental myth in America, is it not?
I mean, well, I mean, the Supreme Court officially ruled that it was unconstitutional to secede, but technically it was illegal to have a revolution too, and that legal that legal finding is moot.
It doesn't matter.
I just mean like the will, the will of the people, the national, the national spirit, the mythology, the mythology, which is even more important of America.
Yeah, you know, we fought the civil war, we brought kept the, you know, for whatever reasons, I can hear all the nitpicking motherfuckers in my ear right now about it wasn't about slavery, it wasn't about this, whatever.
We fought a war, we put the country back together, and that has been a fundamental myth uh within the United States.
And it actually worked.
Like the South and North totally cooperate today.
They uh in in so many ways, absolutely.
Yeah, and it I think it did work, even despite the best efforts of many people and you know, all kinds of retroactive history, uh, history being written and whatnot.
Um, but the idea that we're gonna have states secede without using military force to prevent that from happening is farcical.
So I just wish people would be honest about it when they say national divorce means pick up guns and start killing your neighbor, because that's what it would be.
And I don't know, call me crazy, but I'm not necessarily interested in that.
And then it's definitely not a priority.
It's not a priority.
And I'm gonna throw out one more thing, and I got a lot of shit about this on Twitter.
Thomas West is like one of the most uh important political philosophers of our time.
He wrote a book called the uh the the moral, the moral foundations.
Um I can't remember the name exactly, but basically the moral, the moral conditions for liberty, uh uh a political philosophical discussion of the founding.
And in there, he addresses the um the consideration of those who are opposed to slavery, uh can joining up a union with those who were slaveholders and believed that it was their right to do it.
The people who are abolitionists, and I'm not saying north and south here, I'm just saying people who are opposed to slavery, uh, said, you know, that they didn't want to have slavery.
How can we join a union and form a country with people that want to have slaves?
And vice versa.
But the there was a moral argument to be made that maybe one day we'll end slavery, but if you allow a country to form on your continent with the fundamental component of it being slavery, then slavery itself will persevere and slavery will continue on and more people will be enslaved.
So there was a moral argument for the abolitionists to join a union with people who held slaves, because over time they could exert their influence to remedy that.
Well, that's what happened.
That's what happened.
So I believe that there is a similar moral argument to be made of whether or not we should stay in a union with the woke folks, with the people who have a different fundamental understanding of reality, people who base their meaning of of life and and reality on identity rather than our Jeffersonian life, liberty, and the pursuit of property.
Uh we have a moral there, there's an argument to be made, I mean, I believe, that we have a moral obligation to remain in union with those people so that eventually we can squash that political philosophy.
If if there's a a nation left to base itself upon that fundamental political philosophical perspective, then is there not a net negative moral outcome to that?
And that was the same consideration that was made by the abolitionists in union with the slaveholders.
And I believe that that's a a consideration that should be made here.
And uh I threw that out on Twitter, and everybody said that I was just, you know, what did Malice say?
Said, uh, yeah, coming from a guy who likes to get fucked in the ass, I'm not surprised, or something, something as stupid and crass as that.
So yeah, it's not about getting screwed over.
It's about the net moral calculation.
And what would happen if there was a nation on our continent who had as its fundamental philosophical understanding of the universe that identity and oppressor and oppressee is the only way to understand the universe?
It's the only place that justice exists, or that's the where justice, their version of justice is fixed.
That wouldn't that would mean that over time they would think that they should kill us all.
We'd be a hostile, hostile nation right next to next door to us.
And what about their children and their children's children and all that?
Do we not have some obligation morally uh on balance to to consider that?
And I don't have the answer, but I mean, that's a that's an argument worth have uh discussion worth having when we're discussing what is the net moral benefit of remaining in union with people that have a fundamental different notion of justice, which is really what it what it comes down to.
And these are really deep concepts, man.
These are these are concepts and discussions that that come about uh you know a handful of times throughout history.
Like, how many times have we been talking about you know what is what is philosophy?
What is the meaning of life, what is the good life, and then how do you build a system of government around it to achieve that system that you know that idea of a good life?
You know, philosophy moves slower than fucking glaciers, right?
And uh here we are apparently like ready to have that conversation yet again.
And uh it's it's been some time in America.
It's been a long time.
And so this is something that's gonna take a long time to work itself out and should be thought through very carefully.
And um, you know, the Twitter rage machine isn't necessarily the best way to hash this out.
One last thing on this.
I am concerned as well that there are people out there, I'm gonna use this term, uh, pizza gating.
Okay.
If you remember, I remember and I remember very clearly because this I've been to that comet pizza ping pong.
Uh it's the food good.
Yeah, it's pretty good.
They have a great pizza, good beer, good environment for kids.
I brought my kids there a whole bunch of times before and after.
I bet you did.
Yeah, of course.
Um it's it's like literally walking distance from my house, right?
Yeah.
Um misinformation, disinformation, politically motivated lies.
I'm not talking about anybody that participated in spreading it or whatever, but somebody created this misinformation.
It was distributed heavily, and a dude brought a gun down there and started firing shots, right?
Like he believed it.
It really that really happened.
Misinformation.
But even if it was true, that doesn't justify just shooting the place up.
I'm not saying it does, but what I'm saying is that people out there are going to, I'm using this as a verb, pizza gate us into a revolution.
Pizza gate us into a civil war, promoting things that are obviously false in order to generate rage and clicks and money and fame and notoriety could result in some group of people being like, fuck yeah, I heard about this on Twitter.
This shit's really happening.
It's time.
Let's go, let's go, let's go.
Who knows?
Who knows to what extent?
I'm not gonna go there.
It's possible.
We I think there's a this we're in a novel information space.
It's still novel, no matter how many years we've been involved in it, and the norms and more is and like customs and and safeguards and stuff have really yet to be developed.
I just urge people to remember that there's a lot of people listening.
If you've got 100,000, 200 followers or more, you've got national influence, probably even less than that, national influence, those people talk to other people.
Just don't sell your country out for fucking clicks, is what I'm saying.
Anyway, that's a great point.
That's gonna be a good short.
So last quick last question before I let you go, because we're coming up on an hour.
You mentioned earlier in our conversation uh about how you're the type of person that puts a thousand percent in everything that you do.
So I just wanted to ask, what are you obsessed with now?
Well, uh, interesting.
I am currently and have been obsessed with my kids for the last couple of months.
everybody's obsessed with their kids.
Yeah.
I've been really, really focused on them though.
They're Joe Biden's obsessed with everybody's kids.
They're both right.
But I'm bumped after what we were just talking about.
I know I'm just fucking around.
You know, they're uh my son's a rising junior and my daughter's a rising senior.
They're both D one recruited athletes right now.
They're both choosing where they're gonna go to college, what major sports programs they're gonna play.
It's a critical time.
It's a critical time.
They're both been on tour all summer long, all over the country, all over North America, as a matter of fact, playing and and competing in national tournaments, national regattas, placing, making honors, like really even exceeding any wildest dream I ever had for my kids and their athletic uh prowess.
Like it's it's blowing my mind.
And uh, so it's really it's an it's a super busy time.
We've been on the road all summer long.
I've put this thousands and thousands and thousands, thousands of miles on my car.
Um, you know, I got an oil change at the beginning of the summer and halfway through.
It was like time for another oil change.
That's how that's how much we've been driving.
And um, you know, so really last couple months I've been obsessed with that and uh trying to help them make the best decision.
And and you know, for better or worse, it is exactly the thing where uh I put in a thousand percent effort.
The whole world of uh college recruiting and and scouting and all this scholarships, it's very complicated.
It's complicated and competitive, complicated, competitive.
There's all kinds of weird arcane rules, there's a million different things to consider, there's a million different things to learn.
And so, you know, I'm I'm not the kind of guy that's just gonna like rely on somebody else's advice about it, you know.
So I've I've I've dove in head first.
Um I've been helping them with social media as well, teaching them how to do that.
And so I have been I've been totally obsessed with that.
Now, the other thing I've been obsessed about is is work.
And uh the liminal order has been planning its biggest event of the year.
It's coming up in September, and I'm really excited about it.
What it is is it's a four-day event in Michigan where if you've ever seen the show Homestead Rescue, we are going to uh one of our our brothers' uh farms that he took over the family farm from his ailing in-laws who were sick, and uh we're going to help him build his fences and pens and some goat sheds and get it stocked with livestock, and uh the guys are gonna come and learn basic carpentry skills.
We're gonna work together, we're gonna build these productive assets for his farm, and we're gonna have fun and recreate and hang out together and camp and stuff.
And so we've got about 30 guys that are coming.
Uh, we're gonna be able to get a ton of work done on at parallel.
We're also going to uh record it and produce it and put out uh some videos and shorts and maybe like a little documentary on what it's like.
And so we're not only helping this guy out, we're increasing his sovereignty, we are doing service work, we're working outside together, we're acting as a community, we're being brothers and a brotherhood.
We're teaching people skills in terms of basic carpentry and and how to how to get the farm and homestead working.
We're also teaching people how to create content, how to edit it, how to publish it, how to produce it.
We've got general contractor, architecture and designer, uh TV and film producer and editor, all from within the LO, all on board on this project.
So it's gonna be very professionally done.
And uh I'm really really excited about that because it embodies all of the values that we're about, the liminal order.
Uh we're about masculine energy, and that's you know, not teaching you how to be masculine, because that's kind of dumb and gay, but just like getting guys together that believe in the power of masculine energy, right?
How to build, how to create, how to protect, how to provide, uh that believe in brotherhood, uh, accountability, service, and community, and then believe in sovereignty, whether it's your financial land, water, personal information, sovereignty, anyway.
You can become more independent and self-sufficient.
And so all this event captures all of that together.
We're building and creating, we're protecting and providing, we're doing it together with each other, we're compiling, providing service.
We're learning skills, mastering skills, teaching people how to create, right?
Whether it's carpentry or coding, like how to create is very important.
And then uh we're helping increase not only his sovereignty, but our own sovereignty and the sovereignty of the network.
So uh it's four days in in Michigan in late summer, it's gonna be absolutely beautiful.
Um, so that's that's what I've been obsessed with as well.
The liminal order.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
It's been a real pleasure to have you.
I really appreciate your your insight, your perspective, and um just your general sharp uh perception of the meaning and the philosophies behind the the real mechanisms behind the machine that we're that we're faced with.
So I'd love for you to come on again sometime.
If you ever need great, man.
If you ever need anything from me, just let me know.
And um uh good luck with you and your family.
Congratulations on the success that you've had on the home front.
And I wish the best for your kids as they come into adulthood, man.
An exciting time.
Thanks a lot, Chase.
Really appreciate it.
Uh I thanks for taking the time to do a little scheduling management with me.
But yeah, it's a real pleasure to talk to you.
Uh really good.
Congratulations with the show, man, and keep it up.
Thanks, man.
Take care.
All right, buddy.
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