One American - Chase Geiser - Ukraine Vs. Russia With Dilyana Gaytandzhieva & Chase Geiser

March 2, 2022 - One American - Chase Geiser

38:04

Ukraine Vs. Russia With Dilyana Gaytandzhieva & Chase Geiser | OAP #74

Dilyana Gaytandzhieva is a Bulgarian investigative journalist, Middle East correspondent and Arms Watch founder. Over the last years she has published a series of revealing reports on weapons supplies to terrorists in Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Her current work is focused on documenting war crimes and illicit arms exports to war zones around the world. Follow Her On Twitter Here: https://twitter.com/dgaytandzhieva

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	My name is Tilana Getantieva.
	I'm a Bulgarian journalist.
	We choose to go to the moon and this decade and do the other thing, not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
	Mr. Gorbachev tears down this wall.
	A state which will live in infamy.
	I still have a dream.
	Good night.
	Good luck.
	There are borders on the Black Sea, which borders on Russia and on Ukraine.
	We have many Bulgarians living both in Russia and in Ukraine.
	We have many Russians living in Bulgaria.
	Also, we use the same alphabet with Russians.
	So we are very close as people historically and so on.
	This is just in the beginning.
	I'm trying to explain in short while people in Europe or in the United States or elsewhere, probably they are not very well aware that this war in this region started in 2014.
	It didn't start five days ago, as even people in my country think, because in 2014 and 2015, this area, which is to the southeast of Ukraine and is called Donbass, people from this area, they declared independence.
	These are two republics, Donetsk and Ugansk, and they declared independence from Ukraine.
	Nobody recognized them until probably, yes, until a week ago when Russia recognized their independence.
	I have many Bulgarian friends living in Donbass, in this, as Western media call it, separatist area.
	And over these eight years, they have seen firsthand a lot of atrocities, atrocities, shillings, bombings, 24-7.
	The number of casualties in Donbass is 14,000 people since 2014.
	So people don't know about that.
	What I want to say is that the conflict in Ukraine now has a long history.
	It didn't start five days ago.
	And because this area is populated by Russians, 95% of these people, they are Russians.
	And I guess media, even in my country, they were not supposed to show the reality on the ground because the aggressor in this case was not Russia, was Ukraine.
	So people in, is it working?
	Yeah, I'm still with you.
	I'm just holding very still.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I don't know if I should go into detail with everything, but people can, if they do their own research and don't think that I'm now speaking propaganda.
	No, this is not propaganda.
	People can see themselves that this conflict started many years ago and it is not as simple as it is presented.
	Just Russia all of a sudden invaded Ukraine and started killing civilians.
	It has a long history.
	So I was surprised that even in my country, no matter that we are so close to this area, even people in my country, when Putin signed the decree with which Russia recognized Ugansk and Dunetsk as independent states, people in my country, they asked, what is Ugansk?
	What is Dunetsk?
	They didn't know that, which was quite a surprise to me, because many Bulgarians live there as well.
	And this comes only to show that we have two fronts where wars have been waged.
	The media front and the real front, the reality on the ground and the reality in the media.
	They not always, they not always coincide.
	And the reality on the ground is in many cases different from the reality that media depicts.
	I was work correspondent.
	I covered the war in Libya, Gaza, and Syria, especially the war in Syria.
	I covered it for a few years.
	So I have witnessed myself and I know that really it is so true.
	The first casualty of every war, this is the truth.
	This is exactly what is happening now in Ukraine.
	So just so that I understand properly, there are two regions of Ukraine that in 2014 attempted to declare independence.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	And that independence was just now recognized this week by Putin, but had formerly not been recognized.
	And over the course of the past eight years or so, it has been violent between Ukraine and the separatist movement.
	Yes.
	Ukraine has been violent to these sections, these regions that have attempted to establish their own republic, right?
	Yes, exactly.
	And the number of the victims, it is important.
	This is official statistics.
	The number stays at 14,000 people killed so far in this conflict in Donbass.
	14,000.
	14 or 14.
	One for thousands.
	Gotcha.
	Wow, that's terrible.
	So why is it that these, why is it that the two regions wanted to establish their own republic?
	What problem did they have with Ukraine as a nation?
	This happened during the events in Ukraine in 2014, which some people call revolution, other call attempted coup.
	So when the events in Ukraine in 2014 led to the overthrowing of the previous governments and the installment of a new government in Ukraine, these republics, they declared independence because they are populated with Russians.
	95% of the population are ethnic Russians.
	And also, what is not known is that one process that started in Ukraine since 2014, ethnic cleansing of Russians in Ukraine.
	Russian language was banned.
	Also, I don't know, I'm not sure if people know, but Ukraine is a part of the former Soviet Union and other countries from the former Soviet Union, they use two languages, one of which is Russian and the other is their native language.
	Until recently, so the same was in Ukraine.
	But the thing is that in Ukraine, there is a lot of Russians living there.
	So their language was banned.
	They were subjected to, according to Russia, to ethnic cleansing.
	And the whole conflict at that point led to the declaration of independence by these two regions, Donetsk and Lugansk, that form the area of Donbass.
	This is how they declared independence.
	But these are not professional armies.
	These are people that they are not professional soldiers.
	So they don't have weapons.
	They don't have the expertise to fight back against the Ukrainian army.
	So also what people there describe or described.
	I know myself because as I said, we have Bulgarians living there.
	So I talked to them and they sent me footage, video.
	Many times they asked media in Bulgaria, please come here and we want to show to the world what's happening here to us.
	Bombing, shelling, especially the use of such weapons like mortar shells or rockets, and they are not predictable where they can fall.
	That's why we can witness a lot of collateral damage when such weapons have been deployed.
	And it's very complex issue.
	What I can say is that what is not right, that, for instance, in Europe, and Europe is starting to look like a totalitarian dictatorship.
	I'm not joking because in some states, they announced today that not only do they ban all Russian channels, but if somebody publicly publishes online, for instance, a comment that is deemed pro-Russian, this person will be jailed and the punishment will be up to three years in prison.
	This is absolutely unacceptable.
	This is not only censorship.
	I'm serious, and I have witnessed this in my country.
	This is not democracy.
	Europe is no longer democracy.
	It is simple.
	Why not let people inform themselves themselves and judge themselves what is happening?
	You can't present only one part of the story without presenting the other part of the story.
	For instance, did you know that there was a war in Donbass before the conflict now?
	No.
	The same in my country and I'm in Europe.
	We are neighbors with Russia and Ukraine.
	People in my country didn't know that.
	But they will never know that because now all information coming out of this region, it is blocked.
	By the way, over these years, all YouTube channels, Facebook, and so on affiliated to the people in Donbass, they were also removed, blocked,
	censored, and they couldn't share information with the world, which is why many people just don't know the truth about Donbass and Ukraine and Russia and what led to this conflict.
	Because, for instance, in the United States, if you have American citizens in Mexico, let's say, or just ignore this hypothetical example.
	Yes, I just want to try to explain to the people: if you have Americans that are trapped in a conflict outside of the United States, this is the obligation of the United States to go and to defend these American citizens.
	This is the same.
	These are Russians that are or were attacked on a daily basis with heavy weapons by Ukrainian army and Russia had to defend them.
	And by the way, many of these people in Donbass, many times they kept on saying, where is Russia?
	Why is Russia not protecting us?
	But people don't know that.
	Really, the truth is very different from what is presented now.
	It's not only just because of like they presented a war for the restoration of the Soviet Union.
	This is not the case.
	We have a conflict that started in 2014.
	So it's been eight years since this war actually started.
	So let me ask you this.
	And obviously in the media in the United States, the narrative that is pushed is that Ukraine is an innocent, vulnerable democracy, and Russia is coming in and just terrorizing them.
	That's the narrative.
	And I think it's very clear upon even a small amount of investigation that Ukraine is a corrupt nation.
	It's had problems for a long time.
	But that being said, I still struggle to understand why Putin is interested in helping to protect the separatists.
	Why doesn't he just allow the conflict to continue and say, okay, if you want to be your own republic, then defend yourself against Ukraine?
	Why is Russia getting involved?
	That's where I'm confused.
	No, I'm not a speaker for Putin or Russia.
	What I have heard as an official statement is what Putin explained about the red line that was crossed about NATO and the presence of NATO in the neighboring country in Ukraine and that for Russia it wasn't acceptable
	this process of expansion of NATO to its border.
	Okay, that makes sense.
	And in the United States, and I'm not sure how familiar you are with the United States media, but Zelensky is painted as this brave, President Zelensky is painted as this brave, heroic man who won't leave Kyiv despite the fact that the United States offered to help him escape.
	What are your thoughts on Zelensky?
	How long has he been in leadership and what has his leadership looked like?
	What probably nobody knows in the West is that there was a huge censorship operation against journalists and opposition leaders in Ukraine.
	If this is democratic, I don't know.
	Probably for our standards in Europe now, it is perfectly democratic to jail journalists who oppose your opinion, to shut down TV channels that are affiliated to the opposition and to completely remove any opposition by putting them in jail.
	So people don't know that this was happening in Ukraine over these years.
	If this is democratic, obviously under our new standards that I'm witnessing now, what is happening now in Europe, this is what democracy means.
	Shut down all opposition TV channels or media that represents the other part of the story or another point of view, put in jail journalists, activists, politicians that do not comply.
	And this is democracy.
	We witnessed the same with the pandemic.
	I can continue.
	You yourself know what happened during the pandemic.
	In some countries, vaccination was literally obligatory.
	So this is Europe.
	This is Europe in 21st century.
	So now if I want to tell to the world the story of the children in Donbass, I could face up to three years in prison if I live, for instance, in Slovakia, but I'm sure that the same will be enforced in Bulgaria as well or in the whole of Europe.
	So we can face up to three years for telling the story of the children in Donbass that were killed.
	I really can't imagine that one month ago we would witness this.
	This is Europe and they claim to be the democracy of the world.
	So, and forgive me for failing to say the names of these two regions that have declared a new question.
	Yes, don't worry.
	Donetsk and Ugansk.
	Dominsk and Ugask?
	Yes.
	I'm trying my best.
	Do they desire to remain independent republics or do they want, are they, are they, are they favorable to the notion of being absorbed by Russia?
	They haven't indicated such a desire to become part of Russia.
	They want to be independent.
	At the time being, I don't know, or in the future, I don't know.
	I can't predict.
	Okay.
	Okay, that makes sense.
	And so Why do you think, and maybe this is, maybe this is too complicated of a question, but why do you think it is that Putin feels the need to attack so many different regions within Ukraine if the interest is only in protecting the separatist regions?
	I don't know, I'm not a spokesperson for Putin.
	Also, I want to say I can't comment because I'm not there.
	What I saw in Syria myself on the ground, there were cases.
	I can give an example.
	I was the only journalist present in one city in Syria, which is called Homes, the only journalist.
	And my editor found me and said, here are CNN, they are reporting that it's useless to tell exactly, but they said something like the democratic forces, they were besieged by Bashar ASAP's soldiers, and there were pregnant women and they couldn't go to the hospital to give birth.
	It was absolutely the opposite because I was filming at that moment.
	It was the family of one pregnant woman.
	They asked the terrorist because this was al-Qaeda there.
	I filmed the black flags of al-Qaeda.
	In 2013, it was al-Qaeda.
	ISIS wasn't formed as a group at that point.
	So they wanted the terrorists to leave this woman to go and give birth because they use civilians as human shield.
	So I witnessed myself what propaganda means.
	So I don't know what's happening in Ukraine.
	We just see footage from different sources.
	Now everything is blocked in Europe.
	They blocked all Russian IPs, all Russian media, official government websites, everything.
	So here in Europe, we don't have any information from the Russian side.
	So what we witness now are these are footage that come from Ukraine or from the Ukrainian sources, their media and their Ministry of Defense.
	And some users on Twitter, they do their best to judge what is propaganda, what is fake, what is not.
	And they discovered that in some cases, these are recycled videos and footage from Donbass, from this area that I told you.
	So it is not Ukrainian victims.
	These are Russian victims.
	Or many examples, or even computer games that are made to look like reality.
	So I don't know what is happening in Ukraine.
	I'm serious.
	I really have no idea what's happening in Ukraine.
	And none of us have any idea in Europe, nor in the United States.
	Only who is there can speak now what's happening.
	Why do you think it is that the United States and the West and Europe just in general, why is it that so many people are trying to cover for Ukraine?
	Geopolitics, it is very clear what's happening.
	The United States, probably the happiest in this situation is, I mean, from all players involved, this is the United States, because they got what they wanted.
	Now, North Stream, this is the gas pipeline project.
	It was terminated, which means that the United States removed Russia as a gas supplier for Europe, main gas supplier, and now Europe will buy the more expensive American gas because this project was terminated.
	This is a project for the gas supply of Europe from Russia to Germany, but it is terminated now because of the war there.
	In Ukraine, Russia is the evil, according to the media.
	Putin is demonized.
	So the United States got what they wanted.
	Economically, politically, geostrategically, these are the winners in this situation.
	The politicians and war strategists in the United States I'm talking about now in the current situation.
	I don't know what is going to happen in the following months.
	Do you think that the leadership in Russia, particularly Putin, saw this coming a long time ago, or is this something that they had to spontaneously respond to?
	I doubt that it was a spontaneous decision.
	I think that it wasn't a result of just emotions.
	It was probably well thought and it was coming probably for a long time because first they tried to solve the problems in diplomatic ways using diplomatic channels.
	The results didn't come.
	So now we are witnessing what we are witnessing.
	I spent some time today watching some interviews with Vladimir Putin, particularly the four-hour series that he did with Oliver Stone a number of years ago.
	I'm not sure if you're familiar.
	Oliver Stone.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, there's plenty of critics of Vladimir Putin.
	He's been in power for a long time.
	He's been in power in Russia since before it was before the Soviet Union collapsed even.
	So he's had a long career that historians and contemporaries could be critical of, just by virtue of being in power for so long.
	But one thing that I've come to believe about him, just as someone who's watched him interact and speak, is that he is not a foolish person.
	He's not stupid.
	I mean being stupid and foolish are subtly different, but importantly different.
	And he doesn't strike me as an irrational megalomaniac type person.
	And when I'm thinking about his decision to get involved in Ukraine, it's something that has only brought on great risk to him in that he's had to personally make sacrifices in order to make this decision because his assets have been frozen, the financial struggles and pressure that is being applied to Russia as a whole.
	This is something that Putin knew was going to be a great burden and a great challenge to him and his leadership, yet he still decided to do it.
	And so what I wonder is what risk was he trying to avoid that he associated with the alternative course of action?
	What did he think would be worse that would happen to Russia if Russia didn't get involved in Ukraine?
	You know what I mean?
	I know that was kind of long-winded and I'm sorry, but it's just very interesting to me that he would make this decision, given that I know he's smart and calculated, and this decision is something that's brought a lot of trouble to him.
	Probably if I say now what I think, probably your channel will be blocked.
	Say what you will.
	Say what you will.
	That's fine.
	No, I'm serious.
	Okay.
	I don't know in the United States, but in Europe, if I say what I think, I will be immediately blocked and my account will be taken down.
	I'm not joking.
	I'm so shocked.
	How is this possible?
	I'm not supposed in Europe to say the following.
	Putin, as for instance, Biden, any leader, this is the main role that any leader of a country has to protect its country.
	For instance, we have Ukraine, a potential NATO member with many foreign troops on its territory that were stationed,
	by the way, in Ukraine, not only now, it's been eight years since the events in Ukraine that somebody call cool, others call revolution.
	So it's been such a long time.
	You have your neighbor with becoming a NATO member state and with the potential for nuclear weapons to be stationed in your neighbor.
	If a nuclear weapon is fired, for instance, from Ukraine to Russia, it will take just less than, depending on the type of weapon and the area, but about 15 minutes to hit its target.
	So you can imagine what a threat to any country this is to have your neighbor equipped with nuclear weapons.
	It is the same, for instance, if Russia has a military base in Mexico and places its nuclear weapons in Mexico.
	What is Biden going to do?
	To say, welcome to my neighbor, place your nuclear weapons on my board.
	You're welcome.
	It's impossible.
	I don't think that there is a country around the world that would ignore such a nuclear threat.
	I don't know why people are so surprised.
	I'm sure that every one of the leaders in Europe and the United States, they knew very well what is going to happen.
	They knew the reaction of Putin.
	They pushed Zelensky into this war, knowing very well what is going to happen.
	Because did you notice they promised to help Ukraine to be all the time with Ukraine to fight along with Ukraine?
	What happened?
	All of them evacuated and they left Ukraine to wage this war alone.
	So they made Ukraine think that it will not be alone, but actually Ukraine is alone.
	They knew very well what is going to happen, but Europe and the United States, they wanted this war because now Putin, Russia, they are demonized, subjected under severe sanctions.
	So their enemies push to the corner.
	Basically, this is what is happening now.
	They have a very powerful tool now against Russia because of this conflict.
	And all goals are achieved.
	I don't know.
	It's so obvious what's happening and what's the interest of everybody in this situation.
	The sad thing is that nobody cared about all these people living in this area that have died and are going to die.
	It doesn't matter.
	What matters is for the politicians from the totalitarian Europe and the United States to achieve their geopolitical goals.
	It's like this everywhere.
	Be it Syria or Ukraine or Yemen or other places around the world, Iraq, Afghanistan, people's life doesn't matter.
	This is the sad reality.
	It doesn't matter how many people are going to die, if this will cost a victory to the politicians.
	They just don't care.
	So what do you think Putin's ideal outcome is?
	What is his goal?
	His goal is to sign an agreement with Ukraine about the neutral status of Ukraine.
	That Ukraine will declare that it will not join NATO and that it will not place nuclear weapons on its territory, which of course will not happen if Ukraine will sign such neutral status agreement with Russia.
	They said what they want.
	They want Ukraine to sign such an agreement with Russia and the hostilities will end.
	But I don't know why.
	I don't know.
	I don't want to take a side.
	If this happens to Bulgaria, I don't know how I will react.
	This war could end now if Zelensky signs such an agreement.
	But because I'm not Ukrainian, I'm not Russian, so I don't know what is everybody has their truth and they all have their objectives in this situation.
	Well, thank you.
	But the war could end immediately if they pursue diplomacy instead of other practices that are for them and for Europe, they are better for instead of peace.
	Because now Europe is sending fighter jets, weapons, and so on and so on, which means that this conflict will continue.
	Why is not Europe offering to facilitate peace talks?
	No, they don't want peace.
	Nobody, this is the truth.
	Neither Europe nor the United States want peace.
	Probably the only one, it is an absurd, but the only one who wants peace are the Ukrainians and the Russians.
	This is the sad reality.
	All want this war to continue.
	And I have even the feeling that Europe and the United States, they want to send more and more weapons and just to keep Pozelensky in power so that the damage could be much bigger.
	And they want this conflict to go on for probably a month more.
	For one month, you can imagine how many casualties this conflict could, how many casualties this conflict could result.
	They don't want to stop the war.
	This is the truth.
	Well, thank you so much for agreeing to come on and share your insight with me.
	I know that it's a stressful time in Europe, and I know that there was some risk that you assumed by speaking freely your mind and expressing yourself.
	If there's anything I can do, I know there isn't, but if there is, please let me know.
	Where can people find you and follow you?
	I have, I really don't know if people care about that.
	I have had the dose attacks since October 2020.
	So I have my personal blog where now I publish my stories so people can find my work on gilana.bg.
	Okay, and I'll share all the links and everything in the show notes.
	I really appreciate your time.
	Thank you so much for coming on.
	Is there anything else that you want to say?
	I want to say, I really, I'm still under such shock.
	You can't imagine.
	For instance, today our government fired our defense minister because he wanted Bulgaria to stay neutral in this conflict.
	And because we have only like five fighter jets, very old fighter jets, we purchased new fighter jets from the United States, but we just paid them on papers and they didn't come.
	So we don't have fighter jets to protect our country.
	And our government wanted to just send all fighter jets, not our government.
	NATO and the European Union wanted Bulgaria to just provide all the five fighter jets, all fighter jets that we have to provide to Ukraine, so that Bulgaria will have no fighter jets.
	And our defense minister said, no, this is not possible to happen.
	I want Bulgaria to be neutral and this is not our conflict.
	This is not our war.
	So they fired him.
	This is what happened.
	And I am very, very shocked.
	This is, you can't imagine what the situation is here.
	You are not supposed to say, to speak up your mind and you go to prison.
	And this is Europe in the 21st century.
	Now, what I'm telling you now, if I publish this in Bulgarian or in Slovakia, I will go to prison.
	Is this normal?
	What is this?

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