Dilyana Gaytandzhieva is a Bulgarian investigative journalist, Middle East correspondent and Arms Watch founder. Over the last years she has published a series of revealing reports on weapons supplies to terrorists in Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Her current work is focused on documenting war crimes and illicit arms exports to war zones around the world. Follow Her On Twitter Here: https://twitter.com/dgaytandzhieva
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|---|---|
| Um my name is Tilana Getanjeva. | |
| I'm a Bulgarian journalist. | |
| We choose to go to the moon and this decade and do the other thing. | |
| Not because they are easy, but because they are hard. | |
| Mr. Gorbachev tears down this war. | |
| A date which will live in infamy. | |
| I still have a dream. | |
| Good night and good luck. | |
| Good night. | |
| Bulgaria borders on the Black Sea, which borders on Russia and on Ukraine. | |
| We have many Bulgarians living both in Russia and in Ukraine. | |
| We have many Russians living in Bulgaria. | |
| Also, we use the same alphabet with Russians. | |
| So we are very close as people uh historically and so on. | |
| Uh this is just in the beginning. | |
| I'm trying to explain in short. | |
| Uh while people in Europe uh or in the United States or elsewhere, probably they are not very well aware that uh this war in this region started in 2014. | |
| It didn't start uh five days ago, as even people in my country think because in 2014 and 2015, um, this area which is to the southeast of uh Ukraine and is called uh Donbass. | |
| Uh people from this area they declared uh independence. | |
| These are two republics, Donetsk and Ugansk, and they uh declared independence from Ukraine. | |
| Nobody recognized uh them until probably uh yes, until a week ago, when uh Russia recognized their independence. | |
| I have many Bulgarian uh friends living in Donbass in this um as Western media call it the separatist uh area, and uh over these eight years uh they have seen firsthand a lot of uh atrocities, atrocities, shillings, bombings, uh 24-7. | |
| There are uh the number of uh casualty casualties in Donbass is 14,000 people since 2014, so people don't know about that. | |
| Um what I want to say is that the conflict in Ukraine now has uh a long history, it didn't start five days ago, and because this area is uh populated by Russians. | |
| Uh 95% of these people they are Russians, and um I guess media, even in my country, they were not supposed to show the reality on the ground because the aggressor in this case was not Russia, was Ukraine. | |
| So people in uh is it working? | |
| Yeah, uh I'm still with you. | |
| I'm just holding very still. | |
| Okay, okay. | |
| Uh I don't know if I should go into detail with everything, but people can if they uh do their own research and don't think that I'm now speaking propaganda. | |
| No, this is not propaganda. | |
| People can see themselves that this conflict uh started many years ago, and it is not uh as simple as it is presented, just Russia all of a sudden invaded uh Ukraine and started killing civilians. | |
| It has a long history, so I was surprised that even in my country, no matter that we are so close to this area. | |
| Even people in my country, when uh Putin um signed the decree which uh with which uh Russia recognized Ugansk and Dunetsk uh as independent states. | |
| People in my country they asked, what is Ugansk, what is Dunes, Dunetsk? | |
| They didn't know that, which was uh quite a surprise to me because many Bulgarians live there as well, and this comes only to show that we have two fronts uh where have been waged the media front and uh the real front, | |
| the reality on the ground and the reality in the media, they're not always they not always coincide, and the reality on the ground is in many cases different from the reality that media depicts. | |
| Uh I was work correspondent, I covered uh the war in Libya, Gaza and Syria, especially the war in Syria. | |
| I covered it for a few years, so I have witnessed myself, and I know that really it is so true. | |
| The first uh casualty of every war, this is the truth. | |
| This is uh exactly what is happening now in uh Ukraine. | |
| So just so that I understand properly, there are two regions of Ukraine that in 2014 attempted to declare independence, is that correct? | |
| Yes, and that independence was just now recognized this week by Putin, but had formerly not been recognized. | |
| And over the course of the past eight years or so, it has been violent between Ukraine and the separatist movement. | |
| Yes, Ukraine has been violent to the to these um these sections, these regions that have attempted to establish their own republic, right? | |
| Yes, exactly. | |
| And uh the number of the victims, it is important. | |
| This is official statistics. | |
| Uh the number uh stays at uh 14,000 people killed so far in this conflict in Donbass. | |
| 14,000 40 or 14. | |
| Uh one for thousands. | |
| Gotcha. | |
| Wow, that's that's that's terrible. | |
| So why is it that these why is it that the two regions wanted to um uh establish their own republic? | |
| Well, what problem did they have with Ukraine as a nation? | |
| Uh this happened during the events in Ukraine in 2014, which uh some people call revolution, other call um uh attempted coup. | |
| So when the events in Ukraine in 2014 led to uh the uh overthrowing of uh the previous governments and uh uh the uh the instalment of a new government in Ukraine, | |
| uh these republics they declared independence because they uh are populated with Russians, 95% of the population are ethnic Russians, and uh also what is not known is that uh one process that started in Ukraine since 2014, | |
| ethnic cleansing of Russians in Ukraine, the Russian language was uh banned. | |
| Uh also I don't know, I'm not sure if people know, but the Ukraine is a part of the former Soviet Union and other uh countries from the former Soviet Union, they use uh two languages, one of which is Russian, and the other is their native language, until recently. | |
| So the same was in Ukraine, but um the thing is that in Ukraine there is uh a lot of Russians living there, so their language was banned. | |
| Uh, they were subjected to uh according to Russia to ethnic cleansing, and um the whole conflict at that point led to the declar declaration of independence by these two regions, Donetsk and Don and Wugansk that form the area of Donbass. | |
| This is how they declare independence, but these are not um professional armies. | |
| These are people that they are not professional soldiers. | |
| So they don't have weapons, they don't have the expertise to fight back against the Ukrainian army. | |
| also what people there describe or described I know myself because as I said we have Bulgarians living there So I talked to them and they send me footage, video, they many times they asked media in Bulgaria, please come here and we want to show to the world what's happening here to us. | |
| Bombing, shelling, uh, especially the use of such weapons like mortar shells or uh rockets, and they are not predictable where they can fall. | |
| That's why we can witness a lot of um uh collateral damage when such weapons have been deployed, and um it's very complex issue. | |
| Uh what I can say is that what is not right, that for instance in Europe, and Europe is starting to look like a totalitarian uh dictatorship. | |
| I'm not joking, because in some states they announced today that not only do they ban all Russian channels, but if somebody publicly published online, for instance, a comment that is deemed pro-Russian, uh this person will be jailed, and the punishment will be up to three years in prison. | |
| This is uh absolutely uh unacceptable. | |
| This is not only censorship. | |
| I'm serious, and I I have witnessed this in my country. | |
| This is uh this is not democracy. | |
| Europe uh is no longer democracy, it is simple. | |
| Why not let people inform themselves themselves and judge themselves what is happening? | |
| You can't present only one part of the story without presenting the other part of the story. | |
| For instance, uh did you know that uh there was a war in Donbass before the conflict now? | |
| No, the same in my country, and I'm in Europe, I'm we are neighbors with Russia and Ukraine, and people in my country didn't know that, but they will never know that because uh now all information coming out of this region that is blocked. | |
| By the way, over these years, uh all YouTube channels, Facebook and so on uh affiliated to the people in Donbass, they were also removed, uh blocked, | |
| uh censored, and they couldn't uh share information with the world, which is which is why many people just don't know the truth about Donbass and Ukraine and Russia and what led to this conflict, | |
| because uh, for instance, in the United States, if you have American citizens in uh Mexico, let's say, or just ignore um this is hypothetical example. | |
| This is yes, I just want to try to explain to the people. | |
| If you have Americans that are trapped in a conflict outside of the United States, this is the obligation of the United States to go and to defend these American citizens. | |
| This is the same. | |
| Uh, these are Russians that are uh or were uh attacked on a daily basis with heavy weapons by Ukrainian army, and Russia had to defend them. | |
| And by the way, many of uh these people in Donbass, many times they they kept on saying where is Russia, why is Russia not protecting us? | |
| But uh people don't know that really uh the truth is very different from what is presented now. | |
| It's not only just because of uh uh like they presented uh a war for um the restoration of the Soviet Union. | |
| This is not the case. | |
| We have a conflict that started in 2014, so it's been eight years since this war actually started. | |
| So let me ask you this. | |
| And obviously, in the in the media in the United States, the the narrative that is pushed is that Ukraine is an innocent, vulnerable democracy, and Russia is coming in and just terrorizing them. | |
| That's that's the narrative. | |
| And I think it's very clear uh upon even a small amount of investigation that Ukraine is uh a corrupt nation, it's had problems for a long time. | |
| Uh, but that being said, I still struggle to understand why uh Putin is interested in helping uh to protect the separatists. | |
| Why doesn't he just allow the conflict to continue and say, okay, if you want to be your own republic, then you know defend yourself against Ukraine. | |
| Why is Russia getting involved? | |
| That's where I'm confused. | |
| Uh well um I'm not a speaker to put in Russia. | |
| Uh what I have heard as an official statement is uh what Putin uh explained about uh the red wine line that was crossed about NATO and uh uh the presence of uh NATO in the neighboring country in Ukraine, | |
| and uh that for Russia it was unacceptable uh this process of um expansion of NATO to its border. | |
| Okay, that makes sense. | |
| And in the United States, um, and I'm not sure how familiar you are with United States media, but Zelensky is painted as this this brave President Zelensky is painted as this brave heroic man who won't leave uh Kiev despite the fact that you know the United States offered to help him escape. | |
| What are your thoughts on Zelensky? | |
| How how long has he been in leadership and what is has his leadership looked like? | |
| Um what nobody probably probably nobody knows in the West is that uh there was a huge uh censorship operation against uh journalists and opposition leaders in Ukraine. | |
| Um this is democratic, I don't know, probably for our standards in Europe now. | |
| This it is perfectly democratic to jail journalists who oppose your um opinion, to shut down TV channels that are affiliated to the opposition, and to completely uh remove any opposition by uh putting them in jail. | |
| So people don't know that this was happening in Ukraine over these years. | |
| If this is democratic, obviously, uh under our new standards that I'm witnessing now, what is happening now in Europe? | |
| This is uh what democracy means shut down or opposition TV channels or uh media that represents the other part of the story or um another point of view, put in jail journalists, activists, politicians that uh don't do not comply, and this is democracy. | |
| We witnessed the same with the pandemic. | |
| I can continue. | |
| You yourself know what's happened during the pandemic. | |
| In some countries, vaccination was literally obligatory. | |
| So this is Europe. | |
| This is Europe in the 21st century. | |
| So Now, if I want to tell to the world the story of the children in Donbass, I could face up to three years in prison if I live, for instance, in Slovakia, but I'm sure that the same uh will be enforced in Bulgaria as well, or in the whole of Europe. | |
| So we can face up to three years for telling the story of the children in Donbass that were killed. | |
| Well, this is I I really can't imagine that one month ago, we would witness this. | |
| This is Europe, and they claim to be the democracy of the world. | |
| So and forgive me for failing to say the names of these two regions that have uh that are declared independent. | |
| Yes, don't worry, Dunitsk and uh Ugansk. | |
| Dominisk and Ugansk? | |
| Yes. | |
| I'm trying my best. | |
| Um do they do they desire to remain independent republics, or do they want are they are they are they favorable to the notion of being absorbed by Russia? | |
| Uh they haven't uh uh indicated such a desire to become part of Russia. | |
| Uh they want to be independent. | |
| They uh for at the time being, I don't know, or in the future, I don't know. | |
| I can't predict. | |
| Okay. | |
| Okay, that makes sense. | |
| And so why do you think maybe this is maybe this is too complicated of a question. | |
| Um, but why do you think it is that Putin feels the need to attack so many different regions within Ukraine, uh, if if if the interest is only in protecting the um the separatist regions? | |
| I don't know, I'm not uh spokesperson for Putin. | |
| I uh also I want to say I can't comment because I'm not there. | |
| What I saw in Syria myself on the ground, there were cases. | |
| I can give an example. | |
| I was the only journalist present in one uh city in Syria, which is called homes, the only journalist. | |
| And my editor phoned me and said, here are CNN, they are reporting that uh and uh it's it's useless to tell exactly, but they said something like uh uh the democratic forces, | |
| they were uh besieged by uh the by Bashar al Assets uh soldiers, and there were pregnant women and they couldn't go to the hospital to give birth. | |
| It was absolutely the opposite because I was filming at that moment. | |
| It was um uh the family of one pregnant woman, they asked the terrorists because this was al-Qaeda there, uh filmed the uh the black flags of Al Qaeda in 2013, it was Al Qaeda. | |
| ISIS wasn't um uh formed as a group at that point. | |
| So they wanted the terrorists to leave this woman to go and uh give birth because uh they use civilians as human shields. | |
| So I witnessed myself what propaganda means. | |
| So I don't know what's happening in Ukraine. | |
| We just see footage uh from different sources. | |
| Now everything is blocked in Europe. | |
| They blocked all Russian IPs, all Russian media, official government uh websites, everything. | |
| So here in Europe we don't have any information from the Russian side. | |
| So what we witness now are these are footage that are uh that come from Ukraine or and from the Ukrainian um sources, their media and their ministry of defense, and some uh users on Twitter, | |
| they do their best to judge what is propaganda, what is fake, what is not, and they uh discover that in some cases these are recycled videos and footage from for from Donbass from this area that that I told you. | |
| So uh it is not Ukrainian victims, it is uh these are Russian victims. | |
| So many examples, or even uh computer games that are made to look like reality. | |
| So I don't know what is happening in Ukraine. | |
| I'm serious, I really have no idea what's happening in Ukraine, and no, none of us have any idea in Europe, nor in the United States. | |
| Only who is there can speak now? | |
| What's happening? | |
| Why do you think it is that the United States and the West and Europe just in general? | |
| Why do why is it that so many people are trying to cover for Ukraine? | |
| Geopolitics, it is uh very clear what's happening. | |
| The United States, uh, probably the happiest in this situation is I mean, uh, from all players in power. | |
| This is the United States because they got what they wanted. | |
| Now, North Stream, this is the uh gas pipeline project, it was terminated, uh, which means that uh the United States uh removed Russia as a gas supplier for Europe and main gas gas supplier, and now Europe will buy the more expensive uh American gas, uh, because this project was terminated. | |
| Now this is uh project uh uh for the gas supply of Europe from Russia to Germany, but it is terminated now uh because of the war there in Ukraine. | |
| Uh Russia is uh big evil, according to the media. | |
| Uh Putin is demonized. | |
| So the United States got what uh they wanted economically, politically, geostrategically, these are the winners in this situation, the politicians and uh world strategists in uh the United States. | |
| I'm talking about now in the current situation. | |
| I don't know what is going to happen in the following months. | |
| Do you think that do you think that the leader the leadership in Russia, particularly Putin saw this coming uh a long time ago, or is this something that they've they had to spontaneously respond to? | |
| I doubt that it was a spontaneous decision. | |
| Um I think that uh it wasn't a result of just uh emotions, uh it was probably well thought, and it was uh it was coming probably for a long time because first they tried to solve the problems in diplomatic ways using diplomatic channels. | |
| The results didn't come. | |
| So now we are witnessing what we are witnessing. | |
| I spent some time today um watching some interviews with uh Vladimir Putin, uh, particularly the four-hour series that he did with Oliver Stone a number of years ago. | |
| I'm not sure if you're familiar. | |
| Oliver Stone. | |
| Yeah, and you know, there's plenty of critics of Vladimir Putin. | |
| He's been in power for a long time. | |
| Uh he's been in power in Russia for since since before it was before the Soviet Union collapsed, even so he's had a long career that historians and contemporaries could be critical of just by virtue of being in power for so long. | |
| But one thing that I've come to believe about him, just as someone who's watched him interact and speak, is that he is not a foolish person. | |
| He's not stupid, being stupid and foolish are subtly different, but importantly different. | |
| And he doesn't strike me as an irrational megalomaniac type person. | |
| And when I'm thinking about his decision to get involved in Ukraine, it's something that has only brought on great risk to him in that he's had to personally make sacrifices in order to make this decision because his assets have been frozen, the the the financial struggles and pressure that is has is being applied to Russia as a whole. | |
| This is something that Putin knew was going to be uh uh a great burden and a great challenge to him and his leadership, yet he still decided to do it. | |
| And so what I wonder is what risk was he trying to avoid that he associated with the alternative course of action. | |
| What did he think would be worse that would happen to Russia if Russia didn't get involved in Ukraine? | |
| You know what I mean? | |
| I know that was kind of long-winded, and I'm sorry, but it's just very interesting to me that he would make this decision, given that I know he's smart and calculated, and this decision is something that's brought a lot of trouble to him. | |
| Um probably if I say now what I think, uh, probably your channel will be blocked. | |
| Say what you will, say what you will, that's fine. | |
| No, I'm serious. | |
| Uh if you're uh in I don't know in the United States, but in Europe, if I say what I think, I will be immediately blocked, and uh my account will be taken down. | |
| I'm not joking. | |
| Uh by I have I'm so shocked. | |
| Uh, how is this possible? | |
| I'm not supposed in Europe to say the following. | |
| Putin is for instance, Biden. | |
| Any leader, this is the main uh role that any uh leader of a country has to protect its country. | |
| For instance, uh we have Ukraine, a potential uh NATO member uh with many foreign uh uh troops on its territory that uh were stationed by the way in Ukraine, | |
| not only now that it's been eight years since uh uh the events in Ukraine that somebody called cool, others go revolution. | |
| So it's been such a long time. | |
| You have uh uh your neighbor with uh becoming an A2 member state, and uh with the the potential for nuclear weapons uh to be stationed in your neighbor. | |
| Uh if a nuclear weapon is fired, for instance, from Ukraine to Russia, it will take just less done, depending on the type of uh weapon and uh uh the area, but about 15 minutes to hit its target. | |
| So you can you can imagine what a threat to any country this is to have your neighbor equipped with uh nuclear weapons. | |
| It is the same, uh, for instance, if uh Russia has a military base in Mexico and uh places its nuclear weapons in Mexico. | |
| What uh is Biden going to do to say welcome to my neighbor, place your nuclear weapons on my board? | |
| It's impossible. | |
| I don't think that there is a country around the world that would uh ignore such a nuclear threat. | |
| It's uh I I don't know why people are so surprised. | |
| I I'm sure that every uh every one of the leaders in Europe and the United States, they knew very well what is going to happen. | |
| They knew the reaction of Putin, they uh pushed uh uh Zelensky into this war, knowing very well what is going to happen. | |
| Because did you imagine did you notice they promised to help Ukraine to be all the time with Ukraine to fight along with uh Ukraine? | |
| What happened? | |
| All of them evacuated, and they left uh Ukraine to wage this war alone. | |
| So they made Ukraine think that it will not be alone, but actually Ukraine is alone. | |
| They knew very well what is going to happen, but Europe and the United States, uh, they wanted this war because now Putin, Russia, they are demonized, subjected under severe sanctions. | |
| So their enemies pushed to the corner, basically. | |
| This is what is happening now. | |
| They have a very powerful tool now against Russia because of this conflict, and all uh goals are achieved. | |
| I don't know. | |
| It's so so obvious what's happening. | |
| And what's the interest of everybody in this situation? | |
| The sad thing is that nobody cared about all these people living in this air uh area that have died and are going to die. | |
| It doesn't matter. | |
| What matters is for the politicians from the totalitarian Europe and the United States to achieve their geopolitical goals. | |
| it's like this everywhere be it syria or ukraine or yemen or other places around the world iraq afghanistan People's life doesn't matter. | |
| This is the sad reality. | |
| It doesn't matter how many people are going to die. | |
| If this will cost uh a victory to the politicians, they just don't care. | |
| So what do you think Putin's ideal outcome is? | |
| What is his goal? | |
| His goal is uh to sign uh an agreement with Ukraine about the neutral status of Ukraine. | |
| That Ukraine will declare that it will not join NATO and uh that uh it will not uh place uh nuclear weapons on its territory, which of course will not happen if uh Ukraine will sign uh such neutral status agreement with Russia. | |
| They said what they want, they they want Ukraine to sign uh such an agreement with Russia and the uh hostilities will end, but I don't know why. | |
| I don't know, I don't want to take a side. | |
| If this happens to Bulgaria, I don't know how I will react. | |
| This war could end now if Zelensky signs such an agreement, but because I'm not Ukrainian, I'm not Russian, so I don't know what is uh everybody has their truth, and uh they all have their objectives in this situation. | |
| Well, thank you the war could end immediately if uh they pursue diplomacy instead of uh um other practices that are for them and for Europe, they are better for instead of uh peace because now Europe is sending fighter jets, weapons and so on and so on, which means that uh this conflict will continue. | |
| Why is not Europe offering uh to facilitate peace talks? | |
| No, they don't want peace. | |
| Nobody, this is the truth, neither Europe nor the United States want peace. | |
| Probably the only one, it is an absurd, but the only one who wants peace are the Ukrainians and the Russians. | |
| This is the sad uh reality. | |
| All want this war to continue, and I have even the feeling that Europe and the United States they want to send more and more weapons and just to keep Zelensky um in power so that's uh the damage could be much bigger, and they want this conflict to go on for probably a month more for one month. | |
| You can imagine how many casualties uh this conflict could how many casualties this conflict could result. | |
| They don't want to stop the war. | |
| This is the truth. | |
| Well, thank you so much for agreeing to come on and share your insight with me. | |
| Um, I know that it's a stressful time in in Europe, and I know that there are some risk that you assume by speaking freely your mind and expressing yourself. | |
| Um if there's anything I can do, I know there isn't, but if there is, please let me know. | |
| Where can people find you and follow you? | |
| Um I have uh I I really don't know if people care about that. | |
| I I have the DOS, I have had the DOS attacks since uh October 2020. | |
| So I have my personal blog where now I publish my stories so my people can find my work on gilana.bg. | |
| Okay, and I'll share all the links and everything in the show notes. | |
| I really appreciate your time. | |
| Thank you so much for coming on. | |
| Is there anything else that you want to say? | |
| I what to say? | |
| I I really I'm still under such shock. | |
| You can't imagine. | |
| Uh for instance, today uh our government fired our defense minister because he wanted Bulgaria to stay neutral in this conflict. | |
| And uh because we have only uh like five fighter jets, uh very old fighter jets. | |
| We purchased uh new fighter jets from uh the United States, but uh we just pay them on papers and they didn't come. | |
| So we don't have fighter jets to protect our country, and our government wanted to uh just send all fighter jets, not our government, uh NATO and European Union wanted Bulgaria to just uh provide uh all the five fighter jets, | |
| old fighter jets that we have to provide to Ukraine so that Bulgaria will have no fighter jets, and our defense minister said no, this is not possible to happen. | |
| I want Bulgaria to be neutral, and this is not our conflict, this is not our war. | |
| So they fired him. | |
| This is what happened, and I am uh very very shocked. | |
| Uh this is you can't imagine what the situation is here. | |
| You are not supposed to say to to speak up your mind, and you go to prison, and this is Europe in the 21st century. | |
| Now, what I'm telling you now, uh if I publish this in Bulgarian or uh or in Slovakia, I will go to prison. | |
| This is is this normal? |