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May 29, 2019 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin
38:21
Bash the Fash in #Pontypridd
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There's been an awful lot of political violence introduced into British politics and that's to me that's the loss of the argument as soon as you're going to be aggressive and violent with someone else that's because you haven't got an argument and you know they're right in my opinion.
You just can't admit it.
But yeah, no, it's totally unacceptable and it's being kind of almost promoted, you know, like sorry we sorry did you beaten down on some of them see now this this is exactly the thing.
Okay, well what's a fascist?
Right.
I honestly believe that someone like that that pound shop Enoch Powell, Nigel Farage, is bringing fascism back into politics.
I'll hear him out.
It's like the latest one that's really upset me is a news channel did an investigation into the funding of his party.
So he is now banned that news station, Channel 4 News, from attending any of his rallies.
And suppression of the press is not the way we need to go forward.
No, I agree.
I completely agree.
But what I have noticed is since Brexit, whether you voted remain or leave now, I think is actually irrelevant because the amount of division it's brought into this country.
And I was brought up in London and South Wales during the 80s.
And I remember seeing the National Front on the streets and things like that.
And it's happening again.
And I think whether you're a leaver or remainer, we've been betrayed over Brexit.
And really, we need to get on with it.
You know, because even the remainers now are saying this is just destroying our country.
The division in our country is appalling.
And we need to do something.
We need to stand up and say, look, enough is enough.
I completely agree, which is honestly, this is why we're here having these dialogues on the street.
We want people who disagree.
I mean, like, this lady voted remain, but she's very concerned about this discussion.
I'm a remainer.
I'm so disillusioned with our political system at the moment.
And that's why a lot of these parties with somewhat dubious beliefs, that's when they get in.
A power vacuum is the worst thing that can happen in politics.
And we've had one since 2016.
And is it any wonder that people vote for these people?
Because the major political parties have failed us.
They have.
You know, repeatedly.
They have.
They've been terrible.
And they've been looking out for their own interests alone.
I mean, there's no excuse for Theresa being there apart from to preserve the Conservative Party.
That's the only reason.
But isn't it a case of better the devil, you know?
Because if she goes, we might end up with someone like Boris Johnson.
And that's just ridiculous.
Hang on.
Now, this is what I want to talk about because I find your characterizations of them uncharitable.
Extremely so.
Extremely uncharitable.
But do you not think that contributes to the problem?
I try and keep my views to myself.
If I'm out socially and someone says to me, oh, I was a remainer or I'm a leaver, I just say, well, as is your choice, I don't tend to do that.
But, you know, do we really want someone that's a potential prime minister for this country that referred to Muslim women as letterboxes and African countries as bongo bongo land?
I agree that his rhetoric is not.
We're already enough of a laughing stock around the world for this whole thing.
Okay, so let's talk about that.
Because I agree with you, that's a rude thing to say, but I don't think it's anything that's outside of the bounds of like something that you'd say about them.
Oh, well, I disagree.
You'd say about them.
I disagree.
No, I believe in non-violent direct action.
But if I'm confronted...
What does that mean?
Sorry.
It means I'll protest, but I don't believe that you should raise your fists.
That should only ever be a thing of defense.
But didn't you say something about attacking fascists?
If I'm out on a protest against the EDL or something and they get aggressive to me, I'm going to get stuck because I don't want people like that on the streets of Britain.
It's your right to defend yourself.
You know, my granddad didn't appease fascists.
He shot them.
Well, let's talk about this term fascist, right?
Because I'm really concerned that the term fascist is being normalized.
It's overused, actually.
I think it's overused yeah but that's hang on so this This is what I'm concerned about because if you describe someone like Nigel Farage as a fascist, a pound shop, Enoch Powell.
Well, yeah, but I don't agree with Enoch Powell's views either, right?
I don't agree.
But I don't agree that that's necessarily fascism because fascism actually has a political science definition that actually means something to the people who use it.
And it's people like Nick Griffin who say, okay, if they're going to call everyone fascist, then we'll just start repackaging what we're saying in a very palatable way.
Which is exactly what's going on.
But that suddenly normalizes fascism.
And that concerns me.
I really think we should abandon that label completely because, like, I mean, I'm a bit of a scholar in this regard.
I've had to read a communist manifesto.
I've had to read Das Kapital.
I've read the political doctrine of fascism, right?
It was written by Mussolini and Giovanni Gentili.
And one thing that they say in there is, I mean, they want everything subject to the state.
That's a core tenet of fascism.
And Nigel Farage isn't like that.
He's actually a lot more of a Thatcherite in that regard.
So to call him a fascist, it makes you sound wrong.
It makes you sound wrong.
When he carries out fascist practices like suppression of the media, you've got to think, well, what's going on?
I'm not saying he's a Mussolini or an adult or a Franco, but what I'm saying is some of his policies lean a little bit too far to the right for anyone to feel comfortable.
Let's talk about that then, because do you feel that the media is doing a fair job in covering people they don't like?
Well, because the media could be contributing to this atmosphere.
You see a lot of arguments on both sides.
You'll see the left saying, oh, they're biased against us.
They give Farage too much TV time.
But then you'll see the right saying that.
So my attitude is: if both sides are complaining about the press, the press is doing its job, isn't it?
Well, I don't know because I've been lied about in the press a lot myself, and it really woke me up to the fact that they actually view themselves as gatekeepers.
So they view themselves as the people who control the dialogue in the country.
And I find that quite scary because obviously they're based in Westminster.
So they're very chummy with politicians and they're all doing drugs.
And, you know, they're all very close in together.
And I really don't feel that they represent like I live in Swindon, you know, I don't live anywhere prestigious, but it's a lovely place and it's got a terrible reputation that it doesn't really deserve.
But, you know, and you guys live in a lovely little town like this.
And so it's one of those things.
It's like, if we talk to each other, then we suddenly realize, hang on, I've got a lot more in common with you than I do with some Channel 4 journalists.
Oh, absolutely.
And so I think that the media are kind of trading on a reputation they had like 20 or 30 years ago.
But now I think that they're being a lot more Machiavellian about it.
I think the time has passed as well where politicians are supposed to represent their constituents.
And I think that time passed a long time ago.
I mean, as far back as the 80s when I was a teenager.
And I think the reason that people's views are getting so extreme, either left or right, is just because there is nobody out there that's representing us.
I'm a social worker.
I work with veterans with PTSD.
And, you know, I see the way that I'm a veteran myself.
Hold it a little bit closer.
I'm a veteran myself.
I served my country for 15 years, something I'm very proud of.
And the way I see our veterans discarded on the street, and it isn't because of immigration.
It isn't because of brown people or black people or European migrants.
It's because the government has failed in its duty of care.
There's a thing called the Armed Forces Covenant, which says, in return for me giving up 15 years of my life, when I came out, the army would look after me.
The MOD didn't.
And it's, you know, and so I can understand why people are so frustrated.
But are these more left or right parties any better than the centrist thing we've got at the moment?
Because I didn't see a big, a big change between the Thatcher era and Tony Blair.
New Labour was just Tories in red ties.
And it's been the same ever since.
And I can understand why people are so frustrated.
How do you kid look at a veterans?
Well, obviously, I mean, we have a policy of institute and a department of veterans affairs.
I mean, it's absolutely disgraceful that I mean, the last figure I looked at is about 25 to 30,000 veterans on the streets of the United Kingdom.
And I suspect that's actually a lot lower number than it actually is.
We're also seeing, you know, this government, they're not defending veterans for historical acts in certain, you know, we've got Soldier F, we've got a few other things like that.
I mean, it's a very complicated issue, but it's clear that obviously this government, the Tory government, who most people historically would have thought would back the veterans, really aren't anymore.
They're not interested in that.
But we would institute a Department of Veterans Affairs.
We would actually take into account veterans and veteran status and actually then push them up the ladder for attaining housing and things like that.
Because if you've served the country and you've put your life potentially on the line for the country, then that should obviously be taken into account for if you need to be housed further on.
We don't ask for anything, just a fair crack of the whip.
And in an ideal world, I wouldn't have a job.
But the other thing that worries me as well is organizations such as the EDL and certain other organizations that claim to be political movements, they're sort of hijacking veterans for their own right-wing agenda.
Britain First.
Oh, yeah, right, Egyptian.
Yeah, actual fascists.
And they tend to sort of pander to the veteran side of things because, you know, they think, oh, we get some back in.
And the whole thing about the other week they invaded the green that was planted where Fuseli-Rigby was killed.
The reason there's no memorial on that site was at the request of his parents.
Round the corner is a permanent memorial with a drum made out of brass and everything.
And they go over there saying, this is disgusting, this is disgusting, trying to tap into that veteran feeling of yeah, yeah.
But let me so one of the things I'm really concerned about, right?
And I'm an English liberal, which is different to a French liberal.
And I make the distinction because I study philosophy, right?
So this is actually an important distinction.
But I'm very much the sort of personal sovereignty type of person.
I don't think the government's getting you your affairs.
And I deliberately go and tackle tough issues.
I specifically go and try and talk about the really grimy stuff as well.
Because, and I think you hit the head nail right on the head with the Britain first part there.
No one cares about the veterans, right?
And so you're exactly right.
They see that as prime recruiting ground because the veterans care about the veterans.
The people who are suffering actually care about themselves and their friends who are really suffering.
And if the Tories are like, no, we're just going to austerity salami slice all of your benefits away.
We're not going to help you.
Then where do they go?
Exactly.
Labour aren't talking to them.
You know, the Tories aren't talking to them.
The Lib Dems aren't talking to them.
You know, but UKIP, we are a British Liberal Party.
We can go and talk to them.
You know, and we can actually say, look, we're going to, like, say, the Department of Veterans Affairs.
That would be a fantastic thing because I come from a military family myself.
My dad was in the RAF for 25 years as a sergeant.
And so I grew up, you know, we moved around the country.
I lived in Germany for eight years on JHQ.
I grew up with armed men wandering around.
Exactly.
I'm very obviously massively sympathetic to the forces.
My dad served in Basra and the Falklands, not during the war, but like, you know, as an administrative thing.
And so I'm very, very concerned about that.
And I don't want Britain First to be the only party who talks about that.
That's awful.
But do you not feel that given the current political climate, that all parties are open to sort of, I don't know the word I'm trying to look at.
But people are sort of worming their way into these parties that haven't got the core beliefs of that party.
I mean, yourselves, for example, you know, there's a massive association now up in the northwest with Tommy Robinson.
Do you really want to be associated with someone like that?
Well, he actually can't join the party.
That's the thing, right?
UKIP are actually the only party who keep the XBMP and Britain First people out.
And because he was in Britain first when he was like 20 years old, he can't actually join.
So UKIP is actually the only party that isn't worried about that because we're confident in what we believe.
We think British values are a good thing.
And then they're anti-racist values.
We're the place that invented anti-racism.
Absolutely.
I marched on the streets in the 80s.
Exactly.
And I'm of mixed race descent myself, because my grandfather on my father's side was an immigrant.
So it's like, I'm not afraid of accidentally being a racist or something because I know I'm not.
I know what my beliefs are.
I know what my history is.
And I know that this is not that kind of country.
We're a very anti-racist country.
Well, it's like I've always said, I do not believe for one minute, as some people do, that the 52% of voters that took part in the referendum are racist.
It's ridiculous.
But I do believe the racists now believe that 52% of the population is sympathetic and that's what we need.
That's why we've got to tackle the tough issues.
These are the people we need to be scared of.
And perhaps, and as I was just saying to a friend yesterday, it's not the knuckle draggers that we see marching outside the mosques in Cardiff.
It's the people behind them with the money and power.
They're the people we need to be afraid of.
But this is why UKIP is actually, it's got a really diverse manifesto.
It's got a really diverse set of concerns.
And they all come from the sort of British liberal perspective.
And specifically because we know that the people you're talking about target the same issues.
And because they're unsavory issues, nobody really wants to talk about them.
It's like, well, easier out of sight, out of mind.
But that's how they grow.
But it's not.
We need to talk about these issues.
We need to keep these people in public sight.
Yes.
Because, you know, we had an issue just a couple of years ago where Combat 18 actually had an after-rally party at a venue just outside Point de Prithe.
And you can't have people like that on your streets.
You know, what we need more than anything now is people to come together.
We need unity, not more division.
And I think what we really need to do is, by whatever means necessary, is get Brexit out of the way so that we can start dealing with important issues like Britain first and the EDL and COVID-19.
Why do people go to them?
That's the thing.
We've got to address the core of the issue.
Why do people go to these things?
I honestly believe because it fills a void in their life.
They feel so disenfranchised from society and the political system.
And that is what these people do.
Look at the state America's in at the moment.
And I mean, it's.
I don't want a Charlottesville in Britain.
No, it's not.
I don't want that.
No, we don't.
No.
And I don't think it would ever happen because I like to think that the British people would just turn around and say, do you know what?
We had Mosley in the 30s.
We had the NF in the 70s and 80s.
We're not having that again.
It's just not acceptable.
But that's the thing, right?
So that's the thing I'm concerned about because they...
So, okay, let's get into a rough issue, right?
This is going to be a difficult one, but I think that as proud Brits, we can talk about this.
I'll try.
And we can be fair, right, without...
So I think that, for example, the grooming gang scandals really help Britain first.
I think they really help that party because then they go, see, all Muslims are like this.
This is just something they do.
And then they say, well, look at the Labour Party councillors and MPs who kept quiet.
Look at Sarah Champion, right?
She spoke out about it and the party itself came down on her like a ton of bricks.
And it's like, no, come on, you can't just say that because these people, like Tommy Robinson, doesn't just spring fully formed out of the ether.
He's the product of a series of really bad events and failures by the establishment to actually take action, right?
And the Mirror, four days ago now, published an article about a young girl.
She'd been raped by these grooming gangs when she was 11 and it happened until she was like 19 and now she's 23.
And it happened over 100 times.
And every time the police got involved, they arrested her for being a prostitute and not the men who were raping her.
Now, I mean, as soon as I've said, I've laid this out, I'm like, right, okay, this is a thorny issue, you know, and but we have to tackle it.
We have to tackle it.
And it's, it's not that, it's not that, you know, the Muslims are evil, obviously.
That's not what we think.
But it is that the people around in the power structures, there was a report by Dr. Alexis J in 2014 about the Rotherham grooming gangs, and she found that there were multiple failures from the institutions themselves because they were afraid of being called racist.
Now, I think that's a real phenomenon in this country, and it's because I think we're an anti-racist country.
We're so afraid of someone saying racist at you.
But if someone says there is a problem in a certain area of England with Muslim grooming gangs, that isn't racist.
When someone turns around and says all Muslims are child molesters, that's racist.
Exactly.
And what it is, it's exploitative politics.
Hang on, politics.
Can we pause on that?
Because I love the distinction you've made there, right?
That's absolutely true.
And I 100% agree with that, right?
But the problem is, because it's an unsavoury issue, a lot of people just want to ignore it.
They don't want to talk about it.
And that means that, you know, the Conservative Party, Labour, honestly, are basically complicit in a lot of this, which is really disappointing.
And this is why Sarah Champion is actually such a hero for speaking out about it, because they would prefer they be quiet, right?
And that means that if the politically correct establishment in Westminster are like, we're not going to talk about this issue, you know, out of sight out of mind, then Britain First come along and go, we'll talk about this issue.
And guess what we think?
And it's awful.
The problem as well with organizations like Britain First is they use scapegoat politics, which is the lowest common denominator anyway.
But they push this, you know, the Muslim grooming gangs.
White people commit sex crimes as well.
It isn't a Muslim issue.
It's a societal issue.
And it's something we need to address.
So now they actually have a large number of members within their ranks that are currently in prison or on a list for committing exactly the offences that they but they look at Jimmy Saville.
Look at Jimmy Saville.
The BBC covered that up for decades.
Exactly.
That's a grooming gang scandal, right?
But the problem is, so now I completely agree with you that it's not unique to the Muslim community, right?
Absolutely not.
So I don't want to single them out in particular for this, like in general.
I don't want to say, oh, it's all them and no one else.
That's not true.
Obviously, we know that's not true.
But when you equivocate like that, I think that what a lot of the victims of the grooming gangs and the wider families hear is we're not going to do anything, right?
Because the problem is still going on.
I mean, in the last two months, there were something like, what, 38 men and two women arrested in Rotherham?
40 more arrests last week, four grooming gangs.
And these were going on way past Alexis Jay's report saying, look, this is the problem.
And so when you equivocate, essentially, what you're saying is this isn't a problem that is actually coming out of these communities to them.
Now, I don't agree.
I agree with you that there are.
I mean, I would love to see people at the BBC held to account for Jimmy Saville and who knows who else, you know, but we can't hold them to account at least yet.
But what I think the people who are supporting Tommy here is that you don't care, right?
And I'm not saying you don't care.
You obviously do care.
I do care.
I know, I know.
I know, I know, no, no.
Please don't mention that, man.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
No, no, no.
But this is, see, this is why we're having these dialogues, right?
Because I know that you do.
I mean, you're obviously a well-informed chap.
You've obviously thought about your positions on these things.
You've reasoned it out.
But I'm worried about the communication gap between the conversation we're having and then what they hear when they hear you give a blanket statement.
And I think they do hear the opposite of what you intend.
And I don't think you intend to not be understood.
And I don't think they are looking to misinterpret.
And so I mean, dialogues like this, I think, are crucial to getting the country back on track.
And I don't think these are going to be had in the media.
So where can we have them?
Know, you raised, you raised the issue about the grooming gangs, and of course, it's of concern to everybody in the country.
If it isn't, there's obviously something wrong with you.
But I don't like the way even the press are portraying it.
They always put the word Muslim before it.
Now, when a white person does something and it's unsavory, they don't put Christian Joe blogs did this.
So, why distinguish just because someone's got a slightly darker skin pigment than I've got?
I don't think I agree.
Okay, so you said about how people have failed.
I think this whole grooming scandal is a nationwide problem that is ongoing.
And when you see so little action in places like Rotherham, you see such little action, people like me sit back and say, Well, are the police complicit or are they just turning a blind eye?
Are the politicians complicit?
And that further shakes our belief in the current political system.
And then again, these other organizations, you know, there are left-wing organizations that are just cheeks of the same backside, Antifa and stuff.
They're just as bad.
And I think what's happening is it allows these more extremist parties to get a toehold because one side will say, Oh, you're blaming all Muslims for this.
So the people that lean slightly towards the right will go to that party, whereas people that lean more towards the left, they will go to a more left-wing extremist party because they're saying, Well, you can't say that about all, you know.
Can I tell you about a conversation I had with a lady in Totnus?
She wasn't from Totnes.
I think she was like Hull or something originally.
And this is why I'm saying that it's liberals who have to have these hard conversations.
Because I tell you what, man, I was listening to what she was saying, and I was just like, this is a difficult thing to talk about.
So she had fled from Hull, where there was a large Pakistani community, because in her opinion, they were racist against the English.
Now, that's now see, now that's that, exactly, right?
That's exactly.
You think, well, what do you mean?
And so I talked to her, and she was just explaining, look, they seem to have an innate racial animus against the English, right?
And so I'm sat there thinking, Christ.
I mean, she wasn't a frothing at the mouth radical.
She obviously wasn't a BMP supporter.
She was just a little old deer who was, you know, she was probably about 60.
And she was like, look, I know you don't want to hear this, but I lived it.
I lived it.
You know, I heard what they said to us.
I heard it.
You know, it was my sons being bullied.
It was my daughters being groomed.
This is the, hang on, hang on.
Aren't they just her sons and daughters being groomed by people?
The colour of those people.
No, no, hang on.
No, no, no, no, no.
No, no, it's nothing to do.
It's nothing to do with the skin.
I agree.
I agree with you.
It's nothing to do with the skin, right?
I don't consider race to be a form of politics.
Like, I don't believe that your race means anything.
Well, so you've got more skin picks than me.
Right?
It doesn't mean anything.
Anything.
If you cut me, do I not bleed?
Exactly.
No, I totally agree.
I mean, like I said, I'm of mixed race ancestry.
I don't believe race means a damn thing.
I believe what's in your head, your ideas mean something, right?
And so this is why I think we actually do need to have a conversation about Islam.
Now, I say Islam, and that's a very broad tent, right?
There are lots of different strains of Islam, some good, some bad.
And I think everyone can agree with that, right?
So then I actually did my research into the kind of Islam that comes from Pakistan.
It's a type of Islam called Diobandi Islam.
And this was founded to oppose the British Empire.
So it actually is founded to be an anti-British form of Islam.
And it's the same form of Islam the Taliban have.
So it's very fundamentalist, right?
And so if you've got a lot of people, I mean, do you know anything about the religiosity of Pakistan?
A little.
You know, blasphemy laws.
I mean, they're very, very fundamental.
Hang on, let me know.
Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, as examples as examples of a certain form of Islam that suits your agenda.
No, no, no.
It's quite frantic.
It's quite frankly ridiculous.
No, no, no.
Listen, you're not listening, right?
Let me finish, right?
I agree that it's not all Islam, but it is Pakistani Islam that is diabandi.
No, no, I think what you'll find is it's a bandi Islam.
It isn't Pakistani Islam any more than Saudi Arabian Islam.
Saudi Arabia are a vile nation.
They commit horrendous atrocities.
And the same happens in Kashmir and India and Pakistan.
But to turn around and say it is Pakistani Muslims, no, it just happens to be that that particular branch of that religion, you know, it's like Seventh-day Adventists.
Say that all American Christians are praying for the end of the world, like the seven-day adventure.
No, no, no.
Let me.
And this is what we need to do.
We need to stop.
We need to stop picking on certain sections of society.
Believe it or not, I'm a skinhead.
It's part of the first ever multicultural street cult that ever existed in the UK.
It's based on mod and Jamaican culture.
It's all inclusive.
People that dress like me and are racists are just racists that dress like me.
They're not skinheads.
But I've experienced it.
I've been that scapegoat because I wear Dr. Martin boots and a Harrington jacket.
I've had racists screamed at me down the street.
And yet I'm actually a member of an anti-racism organization.
And it's so when you turn around and say, oh, it's Pakistani this or it's or it's Saudi Arabian this or it's British this, I'm of Irish descent and I went through that in the 70s over here every time a bomb went off.
I got a kicking.
Of course.
Nothing to do with me.
Of course.
And nobody ever turned round and said, oh, well, this predominant Republican tranche of the Catholic Church are all terrorists.
And what's happening is people are scapegoating.
They're picking on a thing.
And the reason it's so easy to do it to people of the Islamic faith is because the vast majority of Islamists, of Muslims, happen to have darker skin colour than us, and it gives people a bogeyman.
And we need to expel that.
But the thing is, the grooming gangs are happening.
Oh, there's no problem.
But that is not a Pakistani problem.
It's not a Muslim problem anymore than it's a Christian problem or a Scottish problem.
I don't agree with you.
I don't agree with you.
Child molesters, child molesters.
It doesn't matter about the hue of their skin or the religion they are.
Can I explain why?
Can I explain why?
Because I've spent a lot of time researching this, and I really think we have to have a very honest conversation.
It's not all Islam.
I agree, right?
But in Pakistan, they have a particular strain of Islam that is anti-British.
And so when this lady in hull says the Pakistani Muslim community seems to be racist against the English, I think it's actually quite an obvious connection that we can say that their version of Islam that hates Britain is actually making them kind of racist against the English.
I think that's nonsense.
Yeah, but why?
Why do you think that's nonsense?
Because if I particularly despised Spanish people and their followings, I wouldn't go and live in Spain.
I obviously believe that any Pakistani person that lives in this country, yes, there's going to be bad apples in every barrel, the same as there are in the white community, in the Afro-Caribbean community.
But to particularly turn around and say, these Pakistani Muslims are doing this, that's just part of the problem.
That's not curing anything.
That's not curing anything.
Hang on, hang on.
Hang on a second.
Look for the people that are actually doing it and persecute them as individuals, not as a race or a religion.
But what does a Tommy Robinson supporter hear from that?
What Tommy Robinson supporters here is all Muslims, child molesters, end of children.
Yeah, no, but what do they hear from you?
I mean, when you say that, they hear, we're not going to address this issue.
Oh, no, I'm a race traitor.
Well, no, no, I don't.
No, that's what they call me.
They call me a race traitor because I happen to believe that everybody, regardless of religion, gender, sexuality, color of their skin, whether they hop around on one foot, walk on two feet, we're all the same.
We're all equal.
And until we start treating each other as equals and looking for these criminals, because that's what they are, and not based on their religion or the color of their skin or whether they're immigrants or not, take care of the victims and prosecute the criminals.
But don't turn around and say, Pakistani Islam preaches this, because I've many Pakistani friends and it's totally against their beliefs.
Of course not.
So we need to stop scapegoating.
And actually, what you're saying that it was that woman that said that.
I've only got your word for that.
I'll give that video up on my channel because I can show you.
No, it could be your beliefs.
I don't know.
No, no, no.
I can show you.
We need to stop scapegoating.
You know, people say, oh, the Muslim community doesn't integrate.
Can you blame them?
But then they're racist against the English.
I've traveled all over Europe where there are British expats.
The British expats in Spain don't integrate.
Yeah, I agree.
Do you know what I mean?
I agree, but do they follow?
The British expats in Germany don't integrate.
But do they think they feel isolated?
And the more you victimize people because they come from a certain religion or a certain area where there are some unsavoury beliefs.
You know, I served in the first Gulf War.
Do I actually believe that every Saudi Arabian I've met is in favour of people being stoned and beheaded?
Iraq was one of the most forward-thinking Arabic nations there was.
We bombed it back into the Stone Age.
I know.
And that's where this rhetoric started.
An illegal war that we've seen.
I agree.
I didn't support the Iraq war.
I agree.
And this scapegoat has got to be a problem.
Can we start?
Okay, so I want to take this slowly one step at a time.
Honestly, I swear to God, I feel this is a very important issue.
I honestly think that you don't want to engage with what has actually happened, right?
And that's how I'm hearing from you.
No, no, no.
No, I am not denying that there's a problem with grooming gangs.
Right, okay, but can we stop?
They are child molesters.
It doesn't matter what the colour of their skin is.
No, I didn't say it does.
Nothing about this is color of skin, right?
This is all about ideas, right?
This is all about beliefs.
Now, like, racism is a form of belief, right?
It's what you believe about other people.
You believe you're superior to me because you've got a different color of skin to me.
That's racism.
Exactly.
That's ridiculous, right?
But what if you believe that you're superior to people because you have a better religion than them?
Well, that's been going on for centuries, hasn't it?
Think of the Crusades.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah, no, of course it has.
But it's still going on now.
I'm sorry, if you're no matter what religion you are, if your religion, you believe that your religion is giving you a higher purpose that lets you grow and molest children or attack other people because they're not that religion.
Sorry, mate, you've got it wrong.
That's not how it works.
Okay, great.
Now, that's exactly what I wanted to hear, right?
Because that's what Tommy Robinson supporters want to hear, too.
But it took us a long time to get to that because you were too busy defending Islam in general, then getting to the point where it's like, look, there is a branch of Islam that does actually hate this country and makes them feel superior to the people who live there.
Do I believe that there is a hardcore mass group of these individuals in this country?
No, no more than I believe that there's a hardcore mass group of people.
But is that just walking people?
Yeah, but is that just down to your own lack of life experience?
Because I've not been to Hull, right?
I'm not from Hull.
But hang on, hang on, let's talk.
Come on, you've spoken quite a lot now.
You made it personal.
So let's talk about it.
No, no, no.
Let's talk about life experience, shall we?
Well, yes.
I emigrated here from Ireland when I was three years old.
I was subjected to horrendous racism.
No blacks, no dogs, no Irish.
I was raised in the South Wales valleys during the Thatcher years.
I was here during the miners strike.
saw what the conservatives did to south wales they decimated it you know it was almost 100 unemployment yeah in 1987 i pulled myself up by my bootstraps i joined the armed forces i served in germany northern ireland kosova bosnia sierra leone saudi arabia iraq After I finished in the army, I went to university.
I gained a first-class honours degree in psychology and a diploma in social work.
I then went to work for the big issue magazine as an area manager in the Northeast Midlands, looking after homeless people of all races and religions on the streets of the Northeast Midlands.
I then moved out of that and became self-employed for a while.
And then due to personal circumstances and the death of someone very close to me, I went back into work.
I became a social worker because I care.
And I will not accept anyone scapegoat in any section of this society.
Yes, there's a problem with grooming gangs, but the problem is they're child molesters and they should be treated.
Why are they child molesters?
Don't label it Islamist grooming gangs because you don't label it Christian.
Nobody says Christian Jimmy Savile.
People seem to have a religious conviction about nonsense.
No, that's not nonsense.
Nonsense.
Have you read their court transcripts?
I've read the Quran.
Yeah, but I've read the Quran.
If you read their court transcripts, they'll say they're worthless white English trash.
Now, that sounds like a racist statement to me, but that's why they targeted these girls.
Worthless white English trash.
Now, hang on.
And when this lady comes down from Holland and says, well, honestly, the Pakistani communities up there seem to be racist against us.
And it's because they follow a particularly anti-British form of Islam that makes them think they're superior to the British and they're better than them religiously.
It seems to all add up.
And so we can't just say, well, it's because they're childless.
No, I think it might be because there are some religious zealots.
Okay, then, perfect example.
Britain first claimed to be a white Christian organization.
Would you say they're Christians?
No, no, they're fascists.
Would you say they're Christians?
They probably are still Christian, but like they're not.
Do you think they go to church on a Sunday?
I don't know.
I don't follow.
Of course they don't.
It's their excuse for having a go at Islam.
Sure.
And I'm sorry, but I'm fed up at this.
You need to treat people for what they are.
If someone's a child molester, they're a child molester.
It doesn't matter what their religion is or what the colour of their skin is.
If someone's a bank robber, they don't turn around and say Muslim bank robber or Christian bank robber.
They say bank robber.
You know, what if you're selling Allah while he's a bad person?
They say go politics.
And by you passing on this rhetoric from this woman, it is rhetoric.
Now we can't talk about it.
Nothing I've said is rhetoric.
Everything I said is factually true.
From her, it's rhetoric.
You had no, at the time she was speaking to you, you had no physical evidence in your hand.
So she's a liar?
You're saying that all the Pakistani community in Hull have got...
I didn't say all.
It's just, there is a problem with racism against the English in the Pakistani community.
These Pakistanis that believe that are no more prevalent in their culture than the Nazis are in our ones.
I disagree.
I disagree.
Look, in 20 different cities, these grooming gangs were created.
They still go to the city.
But do you not think that in 20 other cities there are white grooming gangs and there are white child molesters and white race and white racism?
But there are gangs.
Because if you don't, one, you're sadly deluded.
and two, you bloody racist.
No, listen, see, now that's the end of the dialogue, isn't it?
It is, I'm afraid.
Yeah, but that's the thing.
Yeah, but you're just, yeah, but I'm just stating things that are true.
You've just accused the whole branch of our society of being anti-British child molesters.
No, no, they're not all child molesters and they're not all anti-British, but there is a religious doctrine that is anti-British, and it is creating grooming gangs.
They're 20 different cities, man.
Hundreds of thousands of victims.
Like, you, you, no, no, so see, you're, no, listen, let me finish, man.
You are literally saying these criminals who we are arresting now, we actually know that they're criminals.
They're not part of a wider problem, but it is a wider problem.
It is a wider problem.
We know we can trace the intellectual roots of it.
We can trace the supremacy of it.
We can see the victims who say, look, they seem to be racist against us.
And you're like, no, you're a racist for saying it.
That doesn't solve the problem.
And a Tommy supporter thinks, well, okay, he doesn't care.
He's not going to listen to me with an ear of charity.
He's going to say that I'm a bad person for being the victim of this.
Honestly.
No, not me, them.
The victims of these gangs.
Their families are actual victims, man.
I know.
That's why we have to have these conversations.
Of course, it does.
Of course, it does.
No, look, I'm of mixed race descent.
I am of mixed-race descent.
Part of my family is not from this country, right?
But there is a real problem that we have to address.
Ponder Pri is a very warm-hearted community.
Yes, I know.
No, I don't think you do.
I do.
My wife lived here.
My wife lived here.
It's a university community.
I used to come visiting here.
It's a university town.
We welcome everyone across the world and they come back because they feel the wolf.
We do not have any problems of any description in regards to the university students who come from China, Africa.
Of course not.
Of course not.
Because we're Welsh.
Our Welsh people are warm-hearted.
They are.
Pond deprived is one of the best communities.
So thank you for coming, but I think you're wasting your time, mate.
Well, no, I disagree.
I think these are important conversations that we need to have.
That's the thing.
Like, if we can't actually discuss this fairly, what can we do?
I mean, are we going to say that we have no compassion for the victims of these gangs in whole?
Are we going to just say that the things they tell us about the experiences they've lived through are lies?
Yeah, but that's the thing.
This is a very privileged thing to say.
You know, when this isn't happening to your children, it's very easy to say, no, these people are just racists.
And then getting all offended and affronted.
Well, that doesn't change it.
But I guess that we've stopped listening now.
I've got another question.
Yes.
Can you please, in very simple terms, explain why people should vote to leave the EU?
Yeah.
Because it's an undemocratic superstate.
Guy Verhofstadt recently described it as an empire.
I think that this is pretty bad for anyone, let alone Britain.
And they want to challenge America and China.
To me, that spells dark times ahead.
I don't want to challenge America and China for military dominance of the world.
I want us to be quiet and peaceful and happy and prosperous.
You know, it's the total opposite of what I want.
I want devolution, basically.
And the European Union is centralization.
And so it's the opposite of what I think is good for the country, frankly.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you for that answer.
I've got to go now.
Thank you for coming down.
I'm still going to.
Well, the vote's done now.
Yeah, for me.
But yeah, no problem.
This kind of dialogue does need to be available.
I agree.
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