Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin - Debate with an Angry Anarchist in #Totnes
Aired: 2019-05-21
Duration: 13:45


=== Favoring Community Self-Organization (11:04) ===

[00:00:00]  Right, so before we start, what's your name, sir?
[00:00:03]  Dave.
[00:00:04]  Dave.
[00:00:05]  Dave, nice to meet you, Dave.
[00:00:06]  How would you describe your politics?
[00:00:08]  I'm an anarchist.
[00:00:08]  Right.
[00:00:09]  So you're, uh, you're what?
[00:00:11]  Would you agree that that's a form of communism?
[00:00:13]  No.
[00:00:14]  Why not?
[00:00:14]  Because I don't believe in equality of distribution necessarily.
[00:00:18]  I believe that market systems can be an equal form of distribution.
[00:00:21]  Really, that's really interesting.
[00:00:22]  How could they be an equal form if they're done individually?
[00:00:25]  Well, for instance, you might have somebody who's living on a relatively geographically remote place.
[00:00:29]  Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I've got the summary.
[00:00:31]  It's all the same.
[00:00:31]  I'm wearing some.
[00:00:32]  Yeah, you could have someone who's living in a geographically remote place.
[00:00:35]  It doesn't make any sense for them to have their products taken off them in order to be distributed totally equally.
[00:00:39]  As long as the fundamental principle is that people have to have enough to live and that society is capable and welcome to redistribute when it's clearly unfair, then I don't see that there's anything wrong with the market system.
[00:00:50]  How can anarchy facilitate that, though?
[00:00:53]  Well, anarchism is just the principle that people have the right to do what they want to do, providing it doesn't hurt other people.
[00:00:57]  That sounds like liberalism to me.
[00:01:00]  It may to you.
[00:01:01]  It's an extreme form of liberalism, some have said, but that's not how I interpret it.
[00:01:05]  Well, no, that's an interesting way of putting it, an extreme form of liberalism, because I think the main drive behind liberalism is to give the individual self-determination.
[00:01:13]  I think that's all you're doing.
[00:01:14]  The individual has self-determination, yeah.
[00:01:16]  Yeah.
[00:01:16]  But the question is then, how do you maintain law and order?
[00:01:20]  By social organisation.
[00:01:22]  I mean, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
[00:01:24]  If someone commits a crime, then you have to act to deal with that in a positive way.
[00:01:29]  I mean, it's not necessarily about imprisoning people.
[00:01:30]  You have to recognise that if someone's hurting someone else, it's probably because they're ill.
[00:01:33]  But wouldn't you need a police force to investigate that sort of thing?
[00:01:36]  You might have a community-based force that would do that sort of role.
[00:01:40]  It would have to be elected by the whole of the population.
[00:01:43]  But I think that's actually how we run our police forces in local areas.
[00:01:46]  No, no, it's not.
[00:01:46]  Well, the police, they're not the police.
[00:01:48]  They're not elected, are they?
[00:01:49]  Well, no, they train.
[00:01:50]  They go and train to become one.
[00:01:52]  That's not relevant to how they're picked.
[00:01:55]  That's not relevant.
[00:01:56]  Well, no, it's volunteers.
[00:01:57]  Yeah, they're still not relevant, though.
[00:01:59]  I mean, we're talking about, I'm talking about election.
[00:02:01]  I'm talking about basing it on what people want.
[00:02:03]  Would the people standing also not be volunteers?
[00:02:06]  Yeah, they would have to be volunteers, of course.
[00:02:08]  So the only real difference I can see here is that you'd like an election on anyone who was volunteering to become a policeman.
[00:02:13]  Well, a consensus principle.
[00:02:14]  But this is a very specific point.
[00:02:16]  Yeah, no, no.
[00:02:17]  But the thing is, I'm not saying it doesn't need to be discussed, because I think there might be merit to that.
[00:02:21]  Because I agree with you that there are definitely some policemen who are doing it for the power and not for the responsibility.
[00:02:27]  Power corrupts.
[00:02:28]  Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
[00:02:29]  Absolutely.
[00:02:29]  Lord Acton was completely correct.
[00:02:31]  And so it's one of those things where I agree that we're close to Lord Acton, but it's not Lord Octon.
[00:02:37]  Lord Acton said.
[00:02:37]  Problems are power corrupts and absolutely.
[00:02:38]  And power has a tendency to corrupt.
[00:02:40]  That tendency, yeah.
[00:02:41]  Sorry, yeah.
[00:02:42]  Good correction.
[00:02:43]  But I do agree with you that there's definitely a need for accountability.
[00:02:46]  And I do think that's actually really interesting, voting for the volunteers.
[00:02:50]  So speaking about accountability, what makes it okay for you to say the things that you've said when it comes to normalising rape?
[00:02:55]  my free speech as an Englishman?
[00:02:57]  I don't think that.
[00:02:57]  What about accountability for your free speech as an Englishman?
[00:03:00]  You are right here holding me accountable.
[00:03:02]  Yes, I am.
[00:03:02]  And the rest of the anti-fascist protesters here are also, and that's because they don't want to hear those things.
[00:03:06]  They're an anti-presenters.
[00:03:07]  No, the anti-fascist protesters.
[00:03:08]  They're kind of fascist, though.
[00:03:09]  No, they're anti-fascist because you're a fascist.
[00:03:12]  No, free speech, if it hurts someone, has to be restricted to a certain extent.
[00:03:16]  Do you want to restrict free speech?
[00:03:17]  If it hurts someone, yes.
[00:03:19]  What hurt has been done?
[00:03:21]  Well, you're normalising rape.
[00:03:22]  How in anarchy are you going to restrict free speech?
[00:03:25]  By a community organisation.
[00:03:26]  So bullying?
[00:03:27]  No.
[00:03:28]  Mob rule.
[00:03:28]  No, no, not mob raw.
[00:03:30]  It would have to be organized on a consensus basis, so everybody would have to be involved.
[00:03:34]  Self-government.
[00:03:34]  Community self-government.
[00:03:36]  But the government is made up of citizens of this country.
[00:03:38]  No, well, it's not, though, is it?
[00:03:40]  It's made up of rich people educated in Eaton and Harrow.
[00:03:42]  Yeah, but they're still citizens of this country.
[00:03:43]  That may be, that's not really relevant to the point, is it?
[00:03:46]  Well, yeah, because what you're describing is you need a government to make anarchy work.
[00:03:49]  A government which is controlled by the people and organized by the people.
[00:03:52]  Well, now that's interesting.
[00:03:53]  Everyone, all the people, not just a small minority, but voters, as most of the things that you support.
[00:03:58]  For instance, the League vote.
[00:03:59]  Or for instance, the League vote.
[00:04:01]  It was a very small minority.
[00:04:02]  It was a very small majority.
[00:04:04]  And a minority of the population.
[00:04:05]  Out of all the voters, you got a majority of the votes.
[00:04:07]  That doesn't mean it should be pushed through.
[00:04:08]  Democracy means the voice of the people.
[00:04:10]  Yeah, but that's not the voice of the people.
[00:04:11]  It's not people in action.
[00:04:12]  It's the voice of a very small majority of voters and a minority of the population.
[00:04:18]  So it's not to abstain from voting?
[00:04:20]  Of course they're allowed to abstain from voting.
[00:04:22]  It's the dictatorship of majority rule.
[00:04:24]  And as we can see, the election, the referendum was incredibly badly written.
[00:04:29]  Constitutionalism.
[00:04:30]  We don't actually have constitutionalism.
[00:04:31]  We don't have a constitutional.
[00:04:32]  We have a historic constitution.
[00:04:33]  We have Magna Carta.
[00:04:34]  It's not actually a constitution in this country.
[00:04:35]  It's not legally binding.
[00:04:36]  Magna Carta isn't part of UK law.
[00:04:38]  We don't have a constitution.
[00:04:39]  We have Bill of Rights since 1689.
[00:04:41]  Like, do you not know any of this stuff?
[00:04:43]  I don't know.
[00:04:43]  You may know something that I don't know, yeah.
[00:04:45]  Well, yeah, but we have a long historic tradition of constitutionalism.
[00:04:49]  We actually invented the idea.
[00:04:50]  The point is that that's not relevant.
[00:04:51]  All you've done is taken this off to a different point.
[00:04:54]  It's not relevant.
[00:04:54]  No, it's not relevant.
[00:04:55]  Well, that's how we keep governments accountable.
[00:04:56]  That's how we keep them from becoming a government.
[00:04:57]  They're not accountable, though.
[00:04:58]  They've pushed through various things over the last 20 years.
[00:05:00]  The Iraq war, austerity, universal credit.
[00:05:03]  They've pushed through many things that were opposed by the majority of the population.
[00:05:05]  So we're not accountable.
[00:05:06]  How do we get Tony Blair in jail?
[00:05:08]  I would very much like to see Tony Blair in jail.
[00:05:10]  I would also like to see Theresa May and Jail.
[00:05:11]  I also think that you should be in fucking jail.
[00:05:13]  I also think you should be in jail.
[00:05:15]  Why should I be in jail?
[00:05:16]  I've normalised rape.
[00:05:17]  No, I haven't.
[00:05:18]  You have, and you used a racial slur.
[00:05:20]  And I refuse to apologise for it.
[00:05:21]  A racial slur which is rooted in slavery.
[00:05:24]  I'm not going to apologise for being naughty to Nazis.
[00:05:28]  To hell with them.
[00:05:29]  Why are you defending them?
[00:05:30]  You're a joke.
[00:05:30]  Why are we defending the Paula?
[00:05:31]  You are absolutely a joke.
[00:05:33]  You are supporting Nazis.
[00:05:34]  The UKIP party has close relationships with the far right.
[00:05:36]  No, they don't.
[00:05:37]  They're the only party in the country that prevent the far right from joining.
[00:05:41]  Yes, really.
[00:05:42]  No, the anarchist party is the only party in the country that should support.
[00:05:44]  The anarchist party isn't fit for government because they hate government.
[00:05:46]  No, we don't hate government.
[00:05:47]  We are in favour of community self-organisation.
[00:05:49]  But it's not going to happen, is it?
[00:05:51]  Let's be honest.
[00:05:52]  Well, that's your opinion.
[00:05:54]  That's your opinion.
[00:05:55]  Why do you think it's not going to happen?
[00:05:56]  Because I think that the government will stop you from what I guess would sound like a revolt.
[00:06:00]  Well, I think if everybody is in favour of something, and I think if everybody opposes the government, which it seems that they're getting very close to doing, then I think that, yeah, revolution is possible.
[00:06:10]  What do you do with the people who oppose the revolution?
[00:06:12]  Well, they have to, I mean...
[00:06:14]  They have to be shot.
[00:06:15]  No, it depends on the circumstances.
[00:06:16]  You've got a machine gun on your top.
[00:06:18]  Yeah, it's tongue-in-cheek.
[00:06:19]  It's tongue-in-cheek.
[00:06:19]  Oh, it's a joke when you do it, but not when I do it.
[00:06:21]  Well, no.
[00:06:22]  They're cutting the badges.
[00:06:23]  It's okay when you do it.
[00:06:25]  This is the problem that we have with you.
[00:06:26]  You're a big fucking parliament.
[00:06:27]  Let's have a wait a minute.
[00:06:29]  If you ask me, no, if you ask me the question, the simple answer is that since they're culling badgers and they're killing a lot of people, the point is to make the point that the rich people are the people who are causing that and who are pursuing that.
[00:06:38]  And if you're going to cull anyone, probably better to cull the rich than the badgers because they're the real issue.
[00:06:42]  I don't think we should.
[00:06:42]  I'm not in favour of genocide.
[00:06:44]  No, I'm not in the field.
[00:06:44]  Oh, you're not in favour of genocide.
[00:06:46]  I would never be in favour of supporting state violence.
[00:06:49]  But what are we going to do about the rich then?
[00:06:50]  Well, the rich need to have their money redistributed.
[00:06:52]  But that's going to involve state violence?
[00:06:54]  Not necessarily.
[00:06:55]  What do you mean?
[00:06:57]  You think they're just going to give it away?
[00:06:58]  Community self-defense.
[00:06:58]  Hang on, mate.
[00:06:59]  Hang on, come on.
[00:06:59]  Community self-organisation.
[00:07:00]  If you have a vast mass of people, look at the 1990s.
[00:07:03]  Look at Eastern Europe.
[00:07:04]  If you have a vast mass of people, you can have a Velvet Revolution and you can redistribute money.
[00:07:08]  They're not just going to give their property away.
[00:07:09]  You're going to have to take it by force.
[00:07:11]  Obviously, if there's a case of self-defense, then there's a case of self-defense.
[00:07:14]  But they're defending themselves from people trying to steal their stuff.
[00:07:18]  It's not their stuff.
[00:07:18]  It's not their property.
[00:07:20]  All property is theft.
[00:07:22]  Right.
[00:07:23]  I disagree.
[00:07:24]  I'm not an anarchist.
[00:07:26]  Fuck off.
[00:07:27]  You don't have a job, do you?
[00:07:29]  I do have a job, actually.
[00:07:30]  I have two zero hours contracts.
[00:07:31]  Oh, that sucks.
[00:07:33]  No, that's pretty crap.
[00:07:34]  Yeah, no, that sounds awful.
[00:07:35]  I actually really hate the zero-hour contract thing.
[00:07:37]  I hate what the Tories are doing.
[00:07:38]  Yeah, I'm sure you do.
[00:07:39]  Of course I do.
[00:07:40]  I'm not a Tory.
[00:07:41]  No, you're a UKIP supporter.
[00:07:43]  You're a UKIP MEP.
[00:07:44]  Well, I'm a candidate, but thank you for thinking I'll win.
[00:07:46]  Candidate.
[00:07:47]  Yeah, but that doesn't mean I'm a Tory.
[00:07:50]  I'm obviously not a Tory.
[00:07:52]  No, seriously, look.
[00:07:53]  Do you have any policies?
[00:07:54]  Yes, loads.
[00:07:55]  Would you like to tell me one?
[00:07:56]  I'd like to leave the European Union.
[00:07:58]  You'd like to leave the European Union.
[00:07:58]  And what else?
[00:07:59]  I'd like free speech in this country.
[00:08:01]  I'd like to erase group rights in this country as well.
[00:08:04]  Erase group rights.
[00:08:05]  What does that mean exactly?
[00:08:05]  It means politicising people whether they like it or not.
[00:08:08]  And what exactly is it?
[00:08:09]  Just like you're doing with the people who are abstaining from the vote, in fact.
[00:08:12]  Because to say that, like, 17.4 million out of the 36 million who voted, you're saying, well, what about the people who didn't vote?
[00:08:19]  Well, they chose not to become political.
[00:08:21]  They chose that.
[00:08:22]  You don't have a say over them.
[00:08:23]  Don't you have a say over them?
[00:08:24]  I do have a say on how...
[00:08:25]  Well, I don't even actually have a say on how democracy is organised in this country, but I believe that we should have a say on how democracy is organised in this country.
[00:08:30]  And I don't believe that majority, a very slim majority, is one that should be pushed through, especially when the referendum was so incredibly badly worded.
[00:08:36]  I believe we should have another vote.
[00:08:38]  What do you like about the European Union?
[00:08:39]  Don't particularly like the European Union.
[00:08:41]  It's somewhat more left-wing than the UK.
[00:08:43]  It's neoliberal.
[00:08:45]  I don't favour any state.
[00:08:46]  Or any association of states.
[00:08:47]  Why would you not want to reduce the size of states in principle, though?
[00:08:51]  Well, because the Parliament, the power that we have in this country is associated with a much smaller group of rich people than it is in the EU.
[00:08:59]  Yeah, but no, it's particularly in favour of it.
[00:09:01]  You're shifting to something where you feel that you have a strong basis of support.
[00:09:04]  But the fact that Mary is, I'm not even particularly pro or anti-the EU.
[00:09:08]  I didn't vote in the referendum myself.
[00:09:10]  If I was an anarchist, I'd think the EU was the worst thing that could happen to this country.
[00:09:13]  Because it's an increasingly big state.
[00:09:15]  They want to create a supernova.
[00:09:17]  But it is also decentralised.
[00:09:18]  More decentralised in the state that we have in this country.
[00:09:19]  It's centralised.
[00:09:21]  It is.
[00:09:21]  I've been there.
[00:09:22]  It's really centralised.
[00:09:23]  When you have every nation in the association has a veto over a decision, that sounds like decentralization to me.
[00:09:29]  No, that's the opposite.
[00:09:30]  Decentralisation would be each nation being autonomous and making their own decisions.
[00:09:34]  I would like devolution from London.
[00:09:35]  If a decision affects the whole of the union, then every person in that union should have a right to decide on it.
[00:09:40]  Yeah, but they don't.
[00:09:41]  No.
[00:09:42]  You don't even get to vote.
[00:09:45]  You don't.
[00:09:45]  That's an aspect of a system that we have in this country as well as most countries.
[00:09:50]  Yeah, but you've got less control within the European Union.
[00:09:52]  I mean, wouldn't you be afraid of the control?
[00:09:53]  I don't really agree, personally, but there you go.
[00:09:55]  That's your opinion.
[00:09:55]  What control do you have over the European Commission?
[00:09:58]  I mean, I could vote for an MEP.
[00:10:02]  Yeah, but the MEPs, listen, the MEPs can't propose or repeal legislation.
[00:10:05]  All you're doing is shifting this onto debate about the EU.
[00:10:07]  And the fact that I don't actually care about the EU.
[00:10:09]  What my opinion is I'm in favour of total democracy, like total anarchist, self-organised democracy.
[00:10:14]  So that means that everybody gets a right to a decision.
[00:10:16]  Everybody gets a right to a veto over a decision that affects them.
[00:10:18]  They have the right to control their own lives.
[00:10:20]  That's what I'm in favour of.
[00:10:22]  That's your opinion.
[00:10:23]  That doesn't surprise me that you have that opinion because you are a white dominant man who's in favour of sexual race.
[00:10:29]  Dominant man.
[00:10:30]  Fascism.
[00:10:31]  You seem to be a white supremacist, sir.
[00:10:32]  I'm not a white supremacist.
[00:10:33]  You seem to think that white people are better than non-white people.
[00:10:35]  Why is that?
[00:10:35]  What would make you think that?
[00:10:36]  Because you're calling me a white, dominant man.
[00:10:38]  You don't know anything about what's happening.
[00:10:40]  We have a system in this country which intentionally favours white dominant men.
[00:10:43]  No, we don't.
[00:10:44]  Yes, we do.
[00:10:44]  No, we don't.
[00:10:45]  Yes, we do.
[00:10:45]  How does Sajid Javid end up being an important person in the Conservative?

=== Joke Murders and Debates (02:56) ===

[00:10:49]  Because he's really fucking right-wing.
[00:10:50]  Because he's a white man, right?
[00:10:51]  No, because he's a really right-wing man.
[00:10:53]  So it's not about race, is it?
[00:10:55]  Sometimes it's about race.
[00:10:57]  We have a structurally racist system.
[00:10:59]  How is Gina Miller a pro-Remaine campaigner?
[00:11:02]  You can cherry-pick examples and use that to disprove your point.
[00:11:04]  You can't say that this is a white supremacist system if there are non-white people doing it.
[00:11:07]  You can actually say it was a white supremacist system.
[00:11:09]  It's a structurally racist system.
[00:11:11]  Well, I don't agree with that either.
[00:11:12]  Well, you may not discuss it.
[00:11:13]  How is it structurally racist?
[00:11:14]  It's structurally racist.
[00:11:16]  Oh, for fuck's sake, this is bullshit.
[00:11:18]  You can't explain it.
[00:11:19]  You can't explain it.
[00:11:19]  You're a prick.
[00:11:20]  You can't explain it.
[00:11:20]  Because you're a prick, mate.
[00:11:22]  Everyone knows.
[00:11:23]  That's just an argument's popularity.
[00:11:25]  It's an argument.
[00:11:25]  Under pressure.
[00:11:26]  You're getting angry because you don't understand the things you're talking about.
[00:11:29]  No, no, I'm getting angry because I'm being drawn into a debate which is becoming increasingly elitist.
[00:11:32]  So people don't know what's going on.
[00:11:33]  No, no, no.
[00:11:33]  You don't know what you're saying.
[00:11:34]  And you can just keep changing the state.
[00:11:35]  Is that all you're talking about?
[00:11:36]  The important point is that people have to understand.
[00:11:38]  You're getting angry because you don't know what you're talking about.
[00:11:40]  I'm not angry.
[00:11:40]  You've got sense.
[00:11:41]  No, I'm not.
[00:11:42]  You are very angry because you don't know what you're talking about.
[00:11:44]  The European Union is awful.
[00:11:46]  It's the antithesis.
[00:11:47]  Change it to a subject.
[00:11:50]  Change it to a subject you think you've got control about.
[00:11:54]  You've got nothing.
[00:11:54]  Should we talk about your rape?
[00:11:55]  What you said about rape?
[00:11:56]  Yeah.
[00:11:57]  You would cave under pressure.
[00:11:58]  Yeah, it's a joke.
[00:11:59]  You would cave under pressure.
[00:12:00]  So you could be a rapist.
[00:12:01]  No one's got that much peer.
[00:12:04]  Yeah.
[00:12:04]  What about your joke?
[00:12:05]  Your joke's okay, but my joke's not.
[00:12:07]  My joke is about raising awareness of the fact that the rich oppressed.
[00:12:10]  Your joke was about normalising.
[00:12:12]  Murder is worse than rape was aware of it.
[00:12:13]  Your joke's about normalizing murder.
[00:12:14]  We already have murder in this country.
[00:12:16]  People die all the time in this country.
[00:12:18]  We have thousands of people under a system and universal credit who are being oppressed day by day.
[00:12:22]  People committing suicide because they've got no money left.
[00:12:24]  That's the reality.
[00:12:25]  We already have the same thing.
[00:12:26]  It's murdering a joke about murder.
[00:12:27]  No, I think it's okay.
[00:12:28]  I think it's important to raise the debate.
[00:12:29]  It's not okay to joke about murder.
[00:12:30]  I think it's important to raise.
[00:12:31]  It's not okay to joke about murder.
[00:12:33]  No, it's not.
[00:12:33]  But you're doing it on your shirt now.
[00:12:35]  No, yeah.
[00:12:36]  No, it's raising the debate about murder.
[00:12:38]  Well, maybe I was raising the debate.
[00:12:39]  We already hate.
[00:12:42]  And suicide rates?
[00:12:43]  That's what we're saying.
[00:12:43]  Yeah, that's an important thing, don't you think?
[00:12:45]  It's the biggest killer of men under 45, but are men oppressing women?
[00:12:49]  I believe that men are oppressed just as women are oppressed.
[00:12:52]  Maybe more oppressed, in my opinion.
[00:12:54]  So is it not fair to want to have a debate about why men commit suicide so much?
[00:12:58]  Because they do.
[00:12:59]  Of course it's fair, but you've changed the subject away from what you said, which was to normalize.
[00:13:03]  You said that you could be a rapist in some sense.
[00:13:04]  So you're normalising murder.
[00:13:05]  No.
[00:13:06]  That's the same thing.
[00:13:07]  It's not me.
[00:13:07]  It's just a badger.
[00:13:08]  It's not me, it's a badger.
[00:13:09]  You said that you could commit rape under some circumstances.
[00:13:12]  Yes, you did.
[00:13:12]  You said if there was enough pressure, you would cave.
[00:13:14]  You would commit rape.
[00:13:15]  Are you pressuring me to cave?
[00:13:16]  I beg pardon?
[00:13:17]  Are you pressuring me to cave right now?
[00:13:18]  No, of course I'm not so pressuring.
[00:13:19]  But things I was obviously making a joke is you're obviously making a joke.
[00:13:22]  Why are you taking a joke so seriously?
[00:13:23]  It's a funny thing.
[00:13:24]  It's not Disney making a joke.
[00:13:25]  No, it's not actually making a joke.
[00:13:27]  It's not funny.
[00:13:27]  It's not funny to people who are victims of this.
[00:13:29]  I think it's funny.
[00:13:30]  It's not funny.
[00:13:30]  But I think it's funny.
[00:13:31]  Well, I don't.
[00:13:33]  Because I'm a free man, that's why.
[00:13:35]  And he's a free man, he doesn't have to like it, yeah.
[00:13:37]  But I don't have to care whether he likes my jokes or not.
[00:13:40]  I mean, I don't like his joke, but he doesn't have to care about that.
[00:13:44]  Thank you very much for having the discussion.