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May 1, 2019 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin
24:03
#WestonSuperMare： ＂Racist jokes are racist!＂
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Right, um, okay, so um, we'd like to start.
Uh, what's your name, please?
Margaret.
Margaret, nice to meet you, Margaret.
My name is Carl.
And I appreciate that you'll shake my hand because I take that as a sign of good faith.
Um, so I was brought up shaking the hands of racists.
Where were you brought up, sir?
South Africa.
Right, well, I can imagine that you were, yes, absolutely.
Um, I've never been to South Africa.
Um, none of my family are from there.
But my grandfather is from St. Helena, which is an island off the coast of Africa.
Um, as you can imagine, that means that he wasn't white, and he came to Britain in the 60s.
And my father is a mixed-race man who grew up here in Yeovil and the sort of southwest area, and experienced racism firsthand.
So, I can't say that I am interested in promoting racism.
I think racism is a bad thing.
I think it's actually something to be mocked.
I think it's a laughable concept.
And fundamentally, that's the sort of contention I have with racist jokes.
I don't think that the object of the joke is actually the butt of the joke.
I think the person telling the joke is the butt of the joke because racism in and of itself is a ridiculous position to hold.
And so, if you were to say something racist, if you were to pretend like you literally mean it, that would be a joke at my expense.
And I think that people watching would understand that I'm making a joke out of myself.
I'm the clown in that situation.
What do you think about that?
I think that it's unconscionable that people use terms like the N-word and in South Africa the K-word and think it's okay to speak that way.
Well, that's okay, you don't need to be familiar with it.
The fewer people that are, the better.
The fewer people that use the N-word, the better.
But you find it funny.
Yeah, I don't think it should be a scary word.
I think that we can.
I think it should be.
I think it's a sign of a racist past that is still part of our present.
I don't think it is part of our present.
I think that we're actually an anti-racist country now.
And I don't think it's wise to give words like that power because I think you're basically making them stronger than they need to be, giving the racists more of a prominent position in public life than they deserve.
But you're using words like that to give you more of a prominent position.
No, they're just jokes.
They're not jokes, they're not funny.
It's like joking about rape is not funny.
You mentioned Jimmy Carr just now.
When he jokes about rape, he's not funny.
Well, that's your opinion, but someone else's opinion is that it is funny.
But then there's something wrong with them.
They have a psychological issue.
I think that there might be something wrong with you in this regard.
Really, why?
Well, because I don't see why your focus on the subject of the joke rather than the fact that it is a joke.
I think that if you joking about things is a way to make them less scary.
You know, I really do think that comedy sort of sucks the power out of the powerful and the terror out of the threats.
You know, I think that they genuinely normalize things that would be difficult and make it more manageable for people who might actually have to experience them.
And I think that I'm not sure.
So, do you joke about little dicks?
I guess I could.
I've got a problem with it.
Have you been peeping on me in the shower?
I'm so glad you've embraced your shortcomings.
Oh, you have been peeping on me in the shower.
Well, there's so much video of you out there.
It's alright.
I can hardly blame you.
I am a stallion of a man.
A Barbie stallion.
See, there's nothing wrong with these sort of jokes.
I don't mind taking a joke at my expense.
But that's not something that the vast majority of the population is going to, you know, find offensive.
That is just a characteristic.
How do you know that?
This chap finds it offensive.
Are you going to apologise to him?
But it's a characteristic.
It is not a race or a rape culture or anything like that.
Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Sorry.
Excuse me, excuse me, sorry.
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
Hang on, chaps, hang on.
So, how is that different?
Because it's not like I can change my tiny penis, is it?
Yeah.
So how is that different to me saying about your skin colour or someone else's skin colour?
But you can be a decent person towards people with a different skin colour.
Yeah, but I am.
Well, that's one person.
You want to block immigration from the EU into this country.
Well, that's not racist, is it?
It's a xenophobic, and in some cases, yes, it is racist.
You're anti-Muslim, and let's admit that the large proportion.
Oh, please.
I'm just going to take that as a given that you're anti-Muslim because you're UKIP.
Well, I don't have any problem with Muslims.
I mean, I went to university in Coventry.
My roommates were Muslims.
I didn't care.
They were just regular guys, and I just treat them like.
Yes, they were until you see them in a large group, and then suddenly they're terrorists.
I don't see them in a large group.
I see them as, I mean, like, my flatmate Immy was the most neurotic man I've ever met, and he was adorable.
He was a, no, no, he was an absolutely lovely guy.
I'm not, I refuse to see him as a group.
But that's the problem, isn't it?
Like, as soon as you say, well, you can't say that particular word, you're seeing, like, the N-word, for example, you're seeing black people as a group.
You're saying, no, they're all offended by that.
I've got loads of black friends who use that word constantly as a joke against people like you who get sensitive about it because they like winding people like that up.
You know, they don't care about this word.
It doesn't have any power over them.
Well, black people can say whatever they want about black people.
You can't.
Why?
Because I'm not black enough.
Because you're too racist.
That's a racial system you want to implement.
That's like a linguistic apartheid.
Take your hands off these pages.
No, come on, please, please.
But that's like linguistic apartheid.
I, as a white person, am not allowed to say the black man's words.
I think that's wrong, man.
I think that's creating segregation.
There is segregation.
That's why you're a racist.
I don't think I'm racist, and I don't think there is segregation in this country.
And I don't think there should be segregation in this country, but I think what you're proposing is segregation.
No, not at all.
Well, you're saying that I can't say something because I'm worried.
I don't think anyone should use those words, but the fact that you laugh at them...
Well, they're just a joke word.
It's a nonsense word that's out of time, that doesn't have any real meaning anymore.
It's only got the meaning in which you can imbue it with.
And I think that we can take away the strength of the word by just making it a joke.
I'm totally with Chris Rock on this.
I think he's absolutely right when it comes to the N-word.
He lives in a very different environment to everyone else.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree that America is probably a more racist country than Britain, yeah.
Yes.
Well, there we go.
I mean, we're an anti-racist country.
We're the country that developed the ideas of anti-racism.
We're anti-racist, except for your lot.
But we're the ones promoting the anti-racist ideas.
You're the ones saying black people will be offended by this.
Grouping them up as if you're not.
I'm offended by that language.
Well, it's okay.
I didn't say it to you.
I'm not black.
But I didn't say it to you.
But you said it.
You laugh at it.
Yeah, it's a joke.
I find that offensive.
It's not a joke.
I'm sorry that you're offended by that.
I think it is a joke.
I grew up with jokes like that and with people speaking like that.
It's disgusting.
Yeah, my father did too.
Well, then why do you do it?
Because I don't want that word to have power over me.
I don't want to give it away.
But you give it power in the hands of other people.
No, you give it power by saying I can't use it.
I take that power away by saying this word's a joke and it means nothing to me.
I'm not saying you can't use it.
I'm saying when you use it, you prove you're a racist.
I'm saying that it shouldn't be used by anyone.
Well, I think that's giving it power over me.
And then if some random person shouted the N-word, we would have to act offended.
So they would know how to puppeteer us.
If someone shouted, why can't you just ignore them?
Because we're afraid of that word.
Why can't you just ignore it when I say it?
Because that word has power over you.
You respond to that and it's embedded in your head and you can't get it out.
I actually did not want to come and sit here and discuss it.
I was going to ignore it, although it does make me form an opinion of you.
I appreciate that.
And like I said, I'm happy to talk about it because, I mean, I'm an individualist.
I think that everyone should be treated as an individual.
And so this is why I find racism just as a joke.
I mean, it's just not accurate to be a racist.
It's inaccurate.
I mean, you can't say all black people are X or all X or Y anyway, because it's obviously going to be wrong.
And so why would you have a deliberately incorrect view of the world?
And so to me, if you're going to hold a view like that, then you're an idiot.
And, you know, that's something worth mocking, in my opinion.
And so I just find the whole thing to be laughable.
I mean, obviously, we're never going to...
I would never say to someone, you are X race, and therefore you can't say Y word.
But that's what you've said to me.
And I think that's the problem.
But you're trying to stop people from actually living in this country.
Well, yeah, I just don't think this country should be open to everyone in the world.
It's a small country.
It's not open to everyone.
It's as open here as the rest of Europe is to people from here going there.
Yeah, but I'm not talking about Europe really.
But I mean, okay, but we've only got 65 million people there.
There are four millions of people.
What does your party stand for besides Brexit?
If you mean you're not talking about Europe.
I mean, I guess fundamentally you could call them British values.
And what are British values?
I think the core British value is fairness.
I think it's fairness that we're really concerned about.
And I don't think that the regular British public, the regular British person, is being treated fairly by the powers that be.
And I think mass immigration is an aspect of unfairness that's being foisted on them for the benefit of the sort of ruling elite in London, for the corporate class.
I agree absolutely.
The rich should be taxed heavily.
Well, I agree.
And we should be a proper socialist state.
Well, I don't, no, no, I don't think we should be socialists because I think the problem with socialism, it just doesn't end up working because it's a way of attacking the rich and it ends up making everyone poorer.
But what I think we should do is close all the tax loopholes.
Because the problem I have is corporations not paying their tax because they can afford to get high-priced lawyers and get them.
Corporations and the rich.
Yeah, but they shouldn't be allowed to avoid taxes.
Jimmy Carr was a great example.
He was caught keeping his taxes elsewhere.
Well, but he owned Dr. He should have to pay his taxes in this country.
But they all do it.
And they should all be stopped from doing it.
I agree.
Totally agree.
We should close those tax loopholes.
No questions asked.
And the wealth should be redistributed through the NHS, through the education systems.
Wealth doesn't get redistributed through the NHS.
It helps to keep poor people healthy.
Yeah, but that's not the same thing.
That's not happening now.
And through social care services.
Well, some.
I mean, yeah, I agree.
Like pensions and things like that.
But that is actually wealth redistribution.
But even then, I don't even know if you call that because people pay into the pension system, so they're just getting what they've earned.
But I don't agree with that.
Council housing should be provided for those who can't afford housing.
it depends on the situation really doesn't it i mean if you can't afford to have a roof over your head then the government should give you one Well, who pays for that?
The government.
Yeah, but who pays for the government?
Taxes.
On the wealthy.
No, but it's not just on the wealthy, it's on everyone.
On everyone, yes.
If taxes were generally lower, then we're going to.
But if we increase taxes on the wealthy, then it would help immediately.
Possibly.
But I think closing the loopholes so they actually pay their taxes to start with is a better start, don't you?
Yes, it all has to happen at the same time.
Let's not get into socialism because I don't want to go too far off thing.
Is there anything going back to the conversation about racist jokes?
Is there anything else you'd like to add to that?
I think they're disgusting.
I think they shouldn't be allowed.
I think it's a form of hate speech.
Okay, well, I disagree.
I think that they're a way of disempowering racists.
And I think what you're doing is empowering racists.
You are the biggest culprit for empowering racists in this country.
I don't agree.
I think I'm the biggest culprit for disempowering them.
I think I'm making them weaker by the time.
UKIP is a gathering ground for racists.
It's really not.
It is.
I don't mean to laugh, but it's real.
It is.
It is.
You can ask any members of UKIP that they're not racist.
They're just regular British folk.
They're regular British folk who harbour racist tendencies.
I think this is your particular emotional state that you're talking from.
I don't think that's a good idea.
Oh, is that because I'm a woman?
No, I think it might be because you're a South African.
Okay.
I'll give you that.
I think I'm far more sensitive than other people to racism because of how I grew up.
Honestly, I will give you that.
And I'm not trying to be rude either, because I mean, I also think that my extreme sensitivity to racism is actually the correct amount of sensitivity.
I think it should be eliminated completely.
Well, I don't think that's possible.
Of course it's not possible because there are people like you who still empower racists.
No, I'm not empowering racism.
Of course you are.
No, I'm not.
No, no, no, listen, right?
I think that you're actually doing that.
Because when you say, right, we have to eradicate this thing, then you give yourself a mission above just simply being decent.
No, no, no.
I don't think that you can actually change the way that people think.
But I think you can put in measures to stop them from behaving in a certain way.
That sounds terrifyingly Orwellian.
Hate speech.
Sorry?
That sounds terrifyingly Orwellian to me.
I think that we should be free to say the things we want, even if those things are offensive.
That's what a free country does.
Well, I think that when you're encouraging acts of violence and things.
How far are you going to take free speech?
Well, no, I don't agree.
I don't agree that free speech is political.
I don't agree that encouraging acts of violence falls within that definition.
Well, I think the difference is liberty and license, right?
You should be free to do the things you want to do, as long as you're not infringing other people's rights.
Whereas license is being free to do whatever you want, even if you're infringing other people's rights.
And you don't have the right not to be offended.
What?
You don't have the right not to be offended.
Everyone's always going to be offended by something.
Well, then why are we worried about it?
We shouldn't be worried so much about it.
In fact, what would make sense to do is to make the offensive words less offensive by making a joke out of them, do you not think?
No, you can't do that.
They are offensive and they should be eliminated from everyday speech.
They can't be.
They can't be because they're people like you who go around laughing at them and thinking they're okay.
There are also going to be people who recognize that you're giving these words a position that is privileged and that we will respond to these words in a negative way if we allow people like you to make these words special.
I think we should make these words irrelevant.
You know, you're making the word important.
I think it's just a silly word from another time that doesn't matter now.
I don't think that you can actually make that pronouncement unless you've actually been a victim.
Well, like I said, my father has been a victim of this, and this is what he taught me.
Your father is not you.
Yes, I know, but I'm his son, and I learned from him.
But he taught me how to be a person.
Where were you a victim of racism?
I didn't say I was.
I said my father.
Exactly, so I said your father is not you.
Yeah, but do you not think I learned anything?
But you have not been a victim.
You've not been a victim of rape.
Maybe you have.
Don't start making assumptions.
But do you not think that my father taught me anything useful?
My father taught me not to be a weak man.
You have to be mentally strong, and what you are proposing is to be aware of what you're doing.
But he teaches you how to live with a little dick.
What you are promoting is weakness, in my opinion.
And you are trying to foster that in other people in order to mollify your own conscience.
I'm sorry that this bothers you, that this word bothers you.
And I will apologise to you if you personally are offended, but I don't think we should foster weakness in other people.
I think that's actually a dereliction duty on our behalf of them.
We have an obligation to make these things a part of the past.
And part of that is by saying this doesn't matter to us, and we are not going to be held hostage by a word.
And when you foster Islamophobia?
Well, what do you mean, sorry?
Well, you know, when you speak out about, for instance, refugees coming into the country who are Muslims, you don't see a problem in that.
When have I ever said refugees shouldn't come to the country?
Okay, well, you are against immigration in its entirety.
They're people fleeing wars.
No, they're not, but UKIP is renowned.
I mean, you do have a history of speaking out about Muslims and UKIP as a party.
Well, I mean, maybe.
Is there nothing on which we can criticize Islam?
Sorry?
Is there nothing on which we can critique Islam as an ideology?
Why would you want to critique them?
It's an ideology.
What's wrong with their critique?
Well, I mean, I think every ideology should be critiqued.
I mean, this is the home of criticism of religion, Britain.
We invented the idea of tolerance and examination of one another's ideas.
Why wouldn't we want to examine those?
But you criticise them by likening their religion to terrorism.
I do.
To extremism.
It is terrorism.
There are terrorists who are Muslims.
There are terrorists who are Christians.
More.
Yes, I agree.
But I don't pathologise all Christians as terrorists because of that.
And so I don't pathologise all Muslims as terrorists because of that.
But a large proportion of your followers do.
I don't think you know that.
I don't think they do.
I think you just have a misapprehension.
I don't think you can.
Okay, well, most recently, I saw someone saying that there is a housing association in London called the Muslim Something Housing Association.
Muslims in London Housing Association or something.
And they posted this picture of a hoarding outside a building site that said that they're building 20 new homes.
And the claim is that they are only building homes for Muslims.
But it's pretty easy to refute that claim.
And yet these people refuse to even acknowledge that they're wrong.
They still see Muslim homes as being these homes are just for Muslims, even though it's blatantly untrue.
Who are we talking about?
UKIP supporters.
Well, how do you know they're UKIP supporters?
They claim to be UKIP supporters.
Okay, well, I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this case, so I can't speak to it.
But I don't share that opinion.
If they want to come and speak to me about it, I'll talk to them.
But this is a, I mean, that's one example of an attitude that's pervasive in this kind of subset of the British public.
Well, I mean, should we talk about other parties and what are the alternatives?
It's like saying that there are areas in Birmingham that are no-go zones.
Sorry?
Are the Conservatives not Islamophobic?
Of course they are.
Is the Labour Party anti-Semitic?
Of course it's not.
There we go.
Now I know who you vote for.
And I don't think the Labour...
There are lots of ex-Labour members who are Jewish who don't agree with you at all.
Well, there's been 0.1%, less than 0.1% of the membership have been accused of anti-Semitism.
That's a very small percentage.
And what percentage of UKIP membership have been accused of Islamophobia?
90.
By you, but I'm about to accuse all of Labour of being anti-Semitic, so I win.
Well, you have form, though.
I'm sorry?
I mean, you actually do go out.
People in your party go out and preach about Islamophobia and other xenophobia and race.
We don't go out and talk about anti-Semitism.
The real slogan of the Labour Party is for the many, not the few.
I mean, who disproportionately makes up the few?
The wealthier.
And who is disproportionately wealthy by developing?
That is anti-Semitic as well.
That's a fact.
That's not anti-war.
Are you about to tell me that the wealthier 2% of the population is Jewish?
Not completely Jewish, but Jewish people are disproportionately represented in the top band of society.
There's no question of that.
That's not anti-Semitic.
That is, and that's the very definition of anti-Semitism.
Maybe you should go and read the definition of anti-Semitism.
One of the popular tropes is that Jews are wealthy.
Like, if you look at the numbers, they statistically make more money on average than the sort of average person in this country.
So, I mean, that's not untrue, and I don't see how much.
What numbers?
Well, just the average income per year.
Show me.
Well, okay, fine.
Sorry.
It's true and done to them.
Yeah, exactly.
I'm not in any way saying that's a bad thing.
I think that's fantastic.
And I know how they do it as well, right?
Yeah, they do it through hard work, family values, and focus on education.
They are not quitters.
They do very well.
And the thing is, they should do very well as well, because if you start taking this approach to life, in a free society, you should succeed.
And if the Jewish people who work this hard didn't get to the top of society and whatever their various professions were, there must be some artificial barrier holding them back.
That's how we know we're not an anti-Semitic society.
We know we're not because Jewish people succeed.
And that's a very good thing.
A very good thing.
Well, I agree that we're not an anti-Semitic society as a whole.
Then what did you just say?
No, because you were saying that wealthy people are Jewish.
No, I didn't say that.
That's the other way around.
I said Jewish people are disproportionately more wealthy than the rest of the country, but that's not illegitimate, and that's not a success.
I think you'll find that white people are disproportionately more wealthy than the rest of the country.
That's not true.
The highest earning bracket is actually Indians now.
White people are actually not doing very well.
But the wealth holders are not Indians.
They're predominantly white in this country.
The earning brackets, yes, I agree that Indians and.
Yeah, yeah.
They do very well.
But like, I mean, white working class, they're very much suffering.
They're the lowest owners in the entire country.
Yes, we know that.
That's why we want socialism.
How about we just have a free market and stop privileging groups over each other?
Because a free market doesn't work.
It does work.
It's what made us rich in the first place.
No, what made you rich in the first place is raping and pillaging other countries.
That's not true.
I come from one of those countries.
I know, and I know exactly how much the British Empire costs to maintain.
The reason we gave up the empire is because we couldn't afford to maintain it.
It costs money to have an empire.
You took the natural resources out of Africa and kept them for yourself.
Africa is full of natural resources.
Currently being exploited by the Church.
You sent people like my family to Africa.
You, the British.
Colonialism.
You know that, right?
I'm a product of colonialism.
Just as much as you.
My grandfather came from one of our colonial territories.
My father served in the military.
You can't sit there and say you, me, as if we're different.
Oh, my family also served in the military in the RAF and the RAE and the Second World War.
But you have to understand, I'm not saying the British Empire was...
That doesn't mean I'm entitled to call myself a British citizen.
Well, no, you're a South African citizen, surely.
Yeah.
Yeah, because you're an independent country.
Yes.
How do you feel things are going in South Africa?
I think they're going fantastic.
Right, okay, well I think we'll have the conversation there if you're.
I think so too, because you're obviously getting to be racist.
I don't agree that what I would say is racist, but thank you very much.
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