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Jan. 30, 2019 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin
22:30
Debating Remainers at Parliament
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Time Text
So Sandra, you are a people's vote campaigner.
Can you tell me why?
I'm absolutely in favour of having another vote, another referendum on this issue, because I think what we've seen in the last couple of years is that it's been very difficult to get to a deal that can be agreed by everybody and that's actually very good for the country.
And I think we're seeing a lot of doubts among the population and we really should check whether there is informed consent for carrying on with Brexit.
Well, wasn't that what the original referendum was?
I think the original referendum should actually have been a real consultation with people about what's working for them and what's not working for them, whether that's in regards to the EU or in terms of inequality or other issues that they feel they're not being represented about.
Only then should we have looked at having a referendum if that was necessary.
So I think we need to really debate with people what is wrong and how to address their real problems.
It seems that this is something that's passed us by now though, because David Cameron was quite specific.
He said we'll take the results of your decision and we'll implement them and now we're leaving.
So it seems to be that you're just not happy with the way the referendum went.
I think it's a real mistake that Parliament accepted that the referendum would be binding because it was never designed to be so.
It really should have insisted on a two-third majority and Scotland and Northern Ireland and Wales all agreeing and England to leave the EU or stay in the EU.
So I think that was a mistake there.
I think obviously we are in a reality now.
I accept that certain things have happened.
I think Parliament has gone in good faith to try and support the Brexit negotiation.
But actually the Parliament's concluded that this has not gone well.
There is no support for her deal among the population or in the House.
And I think it's perfectly reasonable for Parliament to be looking at creating the space for another consultation with the public on what they want going forward.
Okay, well, do you not find that the EU is in any way responsible for the difficulty in finding an agreement?
I think the EU has had to stick to its own red lines, if you like.
I mean, there are certain rules that they have to go by in order to maintain the integrity of the single market, the customs union, and all the other rules that create the level playing field that all 27, 28 EU members have to abide by.
So they are really approaching this in a very sort of staggered process by what they can and can't do.
The EU says they've already made many concessions to Britain already and they've gone as far as they can go.
What concessions have they made?
I think they've agreed that we can be party to various agencies if we want to and if it's in our interest and their interest, that there is some flexibility even though we're outside the customs union and outside the single market to be able to still trade with them as frictionlessly as we can.
So I think they've tried to make sure all that happens.
Well that's just their own interest that they're serving there surely.
Well as I said EU is 27 countries.
They've got to make sure that the UK doesn't gain an unnecessary competitive advantage and actually get it both ways.
I mean basically they're saying that we could never have our cake and eat it too.
Well as Brits should we not be looking for our country to have a competitive advantage?
I agree with you and I think there is obviously a certain level of competition even within the EU.
We're all competing and I think that's fine but I mean you know you're either part of the club and you go by the rules and you pay your way and you benefit or you're not and I think it's really been deceitful for people to argue that we can get all the benefits without the responsibilities.
Well I agree I mean I don't think we should get any of the benefits and I think we should just leave.
Then I think the government needs to be very honest with the population that I think the government needs to be very honest with the population about some of the damage that is clearly taking place already and ask whether people are really prepared to accept that.
I mean if we accept that there might be a border in Ireland, we accept that there'll be economic damage, there already has been and that one day benefits of leaving will actually come through, then fine but be honest that we're getting damage in all areas.
Well I think everyone expected some kind of damage but I mean like with the case of the Irish border we can unilaterally just decide not to implement one can't we?
I don't think people did believe there would really be damage.
I mean, businesses are already relocating.
The Union is potentially going to fall apart.
Scotland may try and become independent.
Northern Ireland may separate off in the end.
I think security issues, it's not guaranteed that we'll have access to Europol and intelligence sharing.
That is in jeopardy as well.
And I think all these things people thought would be okay are actually not okay.
What about the European Union then?
Do you think there's any danger for the European Union at this point?
I think certainly UK trying to leave the EU has weakened the European Union and the solidarity and it's very important that we should all stick together as like-minded democracies to face off the challenges that we all see ahead.
I think yes, we have weakened the EU but I think they are resolute and they still believe in what the EU and the European Union stands for and it was founded in order to cement peace between us and create all these channels of fantastic cooperation and I think they want to preserve that.
But do you honestly feel that we'll go to war in Europe if we're not a part of the EU?
I don't feel we'll go to war in Europe if we're not part of the EU but what I do feel is we will not cement the peace and the fantastic channels of security and cooperation in science and technology and all these areas.
I think that will be in jeopardy and I think there's a certain element of resilience that's created by countries sticking together and facing off security challenges perhaps even from Russia or other places.
Okay but why can't we just cooperate without having them dominate our political life?
The EU is the way that Europe does business.
We have to face the fact that they've set up these mechanisms that are very advanced, very complex in many ways and that that is the way they do their business now and if you're not at the table I'm afraid you're nowhere.
Well I think we can now compete them but thank you very much.
Cheers.
So how do you feel Brexit's going?
I don't think it's going very well.
I think at least everyone's in agreement about something.
It's going badly.
Actually can I disagree with you?
You think it's going well?
Yeah we're going to get a no deal.
You think that?
Are you sure?
I think that Theresa May is too incompetent to get a deal.
Yep, but I think Parliament are going to take back control and they're not going to allow a WTO crash out to happen.
I don't know if we've got time.
before the 29th of march i think there's time to to well they'll have to request an extension or they will have to uh withdraw article 50.
Well, what if the European Union doesn't grant us an extension?
They're only going to grant us an extension for another vote.
They're not going to grant us an extension for more pissing around like she's doing at the moment.
So how confident are you that a second referendum will happen?
I'm 100% confident.
Because when I set my sights on a goal, I reach it.
So is it, like, what would you describe as EU supergirl, something like that?
Yeah.
With the supergirl outfit?
I think George Orwell would describe this as rampant European Union nationalism.
What do you think about that characterisation?
On what grounds?
Well, your commitment to a higher ideal to the point where you're declaring yourself the supergirl of it.
The supergirl of the EU.
Well, no, the idea of the EU supergirl is that I'm defending European values and trying to stop Brexit because I believe that's a damaging thing for our country.
Yeah, that's how Orwell defined hypernationalism.
Is it?
Okay.
This is news to me.
I'm quite an Orwell fan, but, you know.
One would argue that the way people are using words to define something that they don't necessarily understand is a bit Orwellian.
I suppose it would be, yeah.
I mean, like, the thing is, there's a lot of people that are going around claiming that they want democracy.
And I don't think they're actually talking about democracy.
I think they're talking about representation.
Okay, go on.
Well, you know, people are saying that we're undemocratic for asking for another referendum.
Now, another referendum is more democracy.
Is it not subverting a previous democratic referendum?
It depends if you count the previous referendum as democratic because there are various questions on the legitimacy of that vote.
Well, which ones?
Such as the illegalities.
I mean, we have seen the Electoral Commission determine that Brett Votely broke electoral spending law.
We've seen illegally targeted ads on Facebook.
Your side, the Brexit side, claim that we overspent as well because of the leaflets that David Cameron put through the doors.
If that is so, then what we need is another vote where all campaigns abide by the law.
And I also personally believe that UK expats should be given a vote.
Well, okay, I mean, I'm not against the idea of expats being given a vote, but I thought they could vote remotely, actually.
Not if they've been out of the UK for more than 15 years.
Right, okay.
So there's about one and a half million people.
But do you not see why people would be annoyed about the idea of having another vote?
You know, I mean, we had the largest referendum in British history.
It came on one side, and now it seems that the people who lost that are saying, well, we're not happy that we lost it.
Well, I think there's a lot of people that are just sick of Brexit.
I'm a bit sick of Brexit as well, to be honest.
And it's not going well.
Most people don't think that it's going well.
And we're asking for a final say on that.
And I guess there is a Brenda from Brister syndrome of, you know, oh, not another one.
But, you know, we're in this mess now.
What way is there out?
Well, I mean, most of the country, the most popular position in the country is no deal at this point, with about 30% and then about 25% wanting remain.
According to what poll?
Lots of polls.
If you're certain of that, you shouldn't be afraid of there being another vote on Brexit then.
I'm not afraid of it, actually.
I'm with Diane Abbott.
I think that we'll win again.
But I think that the very nature of asking is inherently undemocratic and in fact one of the reasons I want out of the European Union.
How can it be undemocratic to ask for another democratic vote?
Because you're only asking because you didn't get what you want the first time.
No, we're not.
Yes, you are.
No, we're not.
Yes, you are.
If you won the first one, you wouldn't be asking for a second one.
We're asking for another vote because I personally don't believe the first vote was democratic because of the illegalities of the campaign.
Okay, but the campaigns themselves, I'm not part of those campaigns.
just a citizen who voted like many others and the politicians in there have made a complete you only want that because you lost the first time I want another vote on Brexit because I want to stop Brexit, yeah.
Yeah?
Yeah, that's my point.
Okay, so what's that?
That's anti-democratic.
We voted to leave.
No, it's not.
No, I want Brexit to stop, just in general.
I believe that we need to have another vote because the first referendum was not carried out correctly.
It was carried out correctly.
It's just the campaigns who are campaigning for it you're taking objections.
No, it wasn't.
Right.
I went to Poland recently because the Schuman Foundation had issued a report on the leave and remain campaigns during the referendum and they identified some illegally targeted ads on Facebook, unattributed to any source, that's illegal.
Targeted using data from Cambridge Analytica.
Well that's illegal.
And then it said, and it was complete propaganda as well.
It was a picture of a polar bear and saying the EU is blocking our ability to protect polar bears.
Click here to save them and it takes you to the Leave site.
I mean that's just blatant propaganda, They're illegally targeted.
Then jail them.
Well, yeah, but how can you accept the outcome of a vote that was won based on illegal means?
It seems that the majority of people have their minds made up beforehand.
Nah, that's rubbish.
Absolute rubbish.
A lot of people were swayed by, say, the big red bus.
I don't think they were.
Yes they were because I've spoken, I do street stores across the country.
I have literally spoken to people in my city of Sheffield where they came and said, I voted leave because I thought we'd get an extra 350 million pass to the NHS.
Literally heard that.
Yeah, but I don't think that's the majority of people who did that.
I mean, like, most people...
You can't say what it was!
Well, I can actually, because I do the same as you, and I speak to people too.
And most of them said, like, most of the older generation say things like, well, we were told we were going into a European economic community.
Now they want a sovereign state.
So that's not what we were told, so I want to leave.
How can you know that for sure without asking the people again?
In the same way that you know yours.
I'm not saying, I'm asking for another vote.
You're not asking for another vote.
You're just saying that you know whatever.
The vote is how do we find out what people think.
Saying you want to crash under BTO rules.
Yeah?
Right?
You do not represent 17 million voters.
No, I represent about 30% of the country.
You don't know that for sure.
Yeah, I do.
I'm polling, right?
Yes.
Polling is bullshit.
Oh, is it now?
The only way to know is to have another vote.
And what if it comes back, leave again?
Well, you know, we leave on whatever deal is specified in that vote.
There won't be a deal specified in the vote, will?
I will campaign to rejoin the EU, because that's what I believe in.
And I guess that's why I kind of brought up the hypernationalism.
But okay, thank you very much.
Cheers.
So why have you come to a Brexit protest dressed as RoboCop?
Because Vote Leave broke the law.
And RoboCop, you know, stood for the law in a corrupt society.
And that's why I'm here dressed as RoboCop.
Okay, and how did they break the law exactly?
They overspent in the Electoral Commission, found they broke the law, they found that they lied, they broke information data protection laws and Information Commissioner also fined them.
And is that the only reason you're here to see justice done?
Well, yeah, I'd like a public inquiry into what's happened.
And, you know, there's lots and lots of vested interests out there.
And the people deserve to know who's backing what and for what reason.
So I would characterise this protest as kind of extremely nationalist.
What do you think?
Well, I don't think, I mean, there's lots of EU flags.
That's not nationalist, is it?
Well, how is it not?
Well, because the EU isn't nationalist.
The EU is a confederation of 28 member states that work together.
You don't think it's an attempt to create a superstate across Europe?
No, I don't.
I mean, there is political union to a point, and the point ends, you know.
Where does the point end?
Well, it ends where we say it ends because we've got a veto against all sorts of things.
But it seems to continue marching on regardless.
That's not, well, I don't think that's true.
We veto stuff that we've never had to use our veto because they've never put forward anything that we would use our veto.
We vetoed the European Army in 2011.
Yeah, so there's no Europe.
So we have used the veto.
So there's no European army.
Yeah, but we have used the veto against their attempt to create a consolidated European superstate.
I mean, so what's NATO?
NATO is an alliance.
Yeah, and so what's the difference between the NATO army and the EU army?
I don't know.
There isn't a NATO army, there's an alliance of national armies, and the European...
They come under a joint commander, the NATO joint commander.
Yeah, but the European Union is an attempt to create a sovereign state.
It's obvious.
I mean, it's got an anthem, a flag, national borders.
Well, it's not a state, it's a union of states, just like...
No, it's a proto-state.
They're trying to create one and now they want a sovereign and an army.
I mean, that's your opinion.
That's not what my opinion is.
It's not, this isn't a nationalist.
This is about a cooperation between countries.
you fall out of that cooperation and you're on your own.
Why would cooperation between countries need a flag?
Well, Mercosur has a flag, ASEAN has a flag, so...
But so, I mean, this is kind of...
flag is the flag of the Council of Europe it's not right it's that's it that's a different thing I mean But don't like, I mean, George Orwell defined nationalism as an irrational commitment to a higher ideal.
That's what I'm seeing here.
That's your opinion.
I mean, I can say that this seems quite irrational as well.
They're nationalistic too.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
It's two sides of nationalists opposing one another.
Unfortunately, this is what's happened.
The debate has become totally polarised.
No one wants a compromise.
I'd love to see a compromise.
I would have accepted a kind of a soft Brexit at the beginning, like something along the lines of Norway ⁇ , where we are leaving.
I mean, I'd say it's totally pointless because you'd be losing your seat at the table.
But ultimately, we can't survive as a solo nation state without our largest trading partner.
We don't have the weight to be able to have all these trade deals.
Liam Fox said we'd have all these trade deals on the day that we Brexited.
We've got none.
And we're going to really struggle when we leave, and we're going to be all on our own.
And basically, in order to get trade deals, we're going to have to carve out bits of our economy to give them to other countries.
So China and India will want more immigration.
They want more visas.
The US will want access to our health care service to be able to privatise parts of it.
I don't agree with that characterisation at all.
That's how trade deals work.
I mean, that's my area of expertise, so I can tell you that's how it works.
Well, I guess we'll leave it there.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Right, so why are you here then?
Right, so we're up from Devon for Europe.
We've come up for every single vote.
We sent up nine coaches to the march, and we are a pan-Devon movement, grassroots, out campaigning every single weekend for a people's vote and with the option to remain, because we think Brexit is an absolute disaster for this country and we want it stopped.
Didn't Devon vote leave though?
Exeter and South Ham's voted to stay, but Devon did vote leave, but now it's changed, actually.
And now...
No, just stress.
Sorry, it's one of my colleagues.
Right.
He's got an important statement on his banner on his placard.
Other way around.
So what was improper about the vote the last time?
Well, didn't we suffer from vast amounts of money being spent on the Brexit campaign, the leave campaign, compared with the remainers?
We get the impression it was very corrupt.
Do we?
Cheated mainly.
Really?
Cheated, lied, and told people things like 70 million Turks arriving tomorrow, the EU stop you saving polar bears, all those Facebook ads that were targeted.
They were really dark stuff.
Doesn't it bother you that the government put pro-Remain propaganda through everyone's doorstep?
The government had nothing to do with it, frankly, because it was two fingers to the government.
A lot of people gave two fingers to the government, but they did not give two fingers to their jobs.
I mean, I'm a lead voter and I'm kind of annoyed that the government spent my tax money on propagandising me to remain.
Does that not have any impact on what you say?
That's why we'd like a straight vote now on the deal with the option to remain because we've got the best deal with the EU already.
We've got a privileged deal and leaving is going to make us a third world country basically quite quickly.
Do you honestly think so?
Especially if we crash out without a deal.
Where's our negotiating position?
If you come up...
Negotiating position is remarkably strong if we're a sovereign country.
Yes, of course.
Because we'd be sovereign so we can make our own decisions.
We're already sovereign.
Do you know Article 50, it says that although this Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it hasn't always felt like that.
So just because it felt like that, we think that we're going to pretend that we didn't have sovereignty.
We always had sovereignty.
I don't agree that sovereignty is someone else outside of your country imposing laws on you.
No, we're part of a parliament, we're part of a diplomatic process.
We have MEPs.
Yeah, but your MEPs are remarkably powerless.
They're not.
Yes, they are.
They're not.
Yes, they are.
Do you know how many laws, how many laws do you think in this country were dictated to us by the EU?
Half of them.
What percentage of them?
50.
You really think that?
I know that.
No, you don't.
Yes, I do.
Because it's 7%.
No, it's not.
It is, and only 72 that we voted against.
And do you know which laws?
The Guardian fact-checkers brought up Nigel Farage on this when he said it was 75%, and they said, no, it was only 50%.
Do you know which laws we wanted to vote against?
Shall I tell you some of the ones that we wanted to vote against?
Please, yeah.
We wanted to vote against a law that would stop employers in this country undercutting local workers by bringing in workers from the EU.
We said, oh, no, we like that.
We like taking advantage of that.
So we, the UK government, our people, wanted to stop that.
Well, I agree.
The problem we've got is a neoliberal consensus.
Well, we wanted to stop overfishing.
We want to stop that.
The EU wants to stop it.
It seems that the EU's destroyed our fishing industries altogether.
No, no, no, no, that was the UK government's decision to sell off fishing quota, sell off fishing quota to European companies.
That's the UK government's fault.
In France, they sold quota to the port.
The quota went to the port.
So nothing to do with the European Union on that regard?
No, it's our government's decision.
Most of the things that you people don't like were decisions.
You leavers, we're decisions.
What don't I like?
Well, you say, we don't have border controls, for example.
We have border controls.
No, no, I don't say that.
We could have used border controls.
We chose not to.
We're actually stronger than most European countries on border controls.
So I don't actually say that.
No, but some people do, don't they?
Some people say take control of our money, like 0.7% of our budget.
Wow, that's a lot of money to take control of, isn't it?
It's billions of pounds, isn't it?
Which we already had.
Yeah, the problem with the borders is not the European Union.
Which we already do.
No, I don't agree.
I'm sorry, but a remarkable number of our laws are made in Europe and we don't even get to vote for them.
No, no, listen.
Listen, we don't get to vote for the people who propose them.
The job is you don't understand.
Obviously, you don't really understand how the EU works.
No, really.
That the parliament is proportional representation.
Yeah, but it's also powerless to propose legislation.
That's all it does.
No, it doesn't.
The Commission does, but you don't vote for the Commissioners.
What do you think our civil servants do?
I don't vote for the civil servants either.
No, exactly.
So we're in a no-taxation without representation situation.
It's a better situation in Europe where it's proportional representation than here where it's first passed the post and 75% of people don't get who they want all of the time.
I would rather first pass the post as long as I'm voting for legislators.
Yeah, but do you bother to vote in European elections?
Yes.
Vote for your MEP.
Yes.
You did?
Yes.
Okay, well you're unusual.
We need to get more people involved in voting for their MEPs.
Yes, we do, yes.
Well, I mean, I don't think we will after we leave, will we?
Well, it's interesting that was it Nadine Doris who said, oh, I don't like the look of this deal because we won't have any MEPs.
It's like, yeah, that's what happens when you leave the EU.
Yeah, that was the plan, wasn't it, surely?
Anyway, thank you very much.
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