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May 10, 2018 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin
11:38
Mike Stuchbery vs Sargon of Akkad
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Hey everyone, I've found Mike Stickberry who's found viral fame by dunking on people like Paul Joseph Watson.
How have you found your fame?
By dunking on Paul Joseph Watson.
How do I find my fame?
You've had a bunch of articles written about you and things like that in the left-wing media.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
That's definitely true.
Interesting.
Do you find it's more about tribal loyalties rather than actual facts and politics these days?
Yeah, I'm going to have to say it is about tribal loyalties rather than it is about ideas.
Do you think Twitter's caused this?
Well, I think it's a many-pronged thing, but I do think that Twitter has played a large role in it.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, it's very easy.
I mean, Twitter creates bubbles that are sort of very hard to break out of.
And after the whole thing with Paul Joseph Watson, I sort of found myself very much trapped in one.
And I've been trying to sort of get, not so much get out of it, but sort of talk to people outside of it because, you know, it's not helpful.
Well, yeah, I think it's not healthy.
And like, it was interesting finding you on like this side of the barrier because I think most people who know of you on the internet would expect you to be on the other side of the barrier yelling down with fascism or something like that.
Well, to be honest, I might have ended up on that other side of the barrier, but seeing what people were saying on this side of the barrier in terms of, you know, how they rationalized how they were going to be here today, whether it was for them something like more like whether they were genuinely here in the service of free speech and, you know, a free and democratic society or whether they, you know, whether it was they were going to be standing around in the corner saying, you know, fuck Muslims or something like that.
Yeah.
So I was curious.
And I mean, it's been something that I've, back in Australia, I used to do too, sort of trying to get on both sides of the barrier.
But yeah, yeah, I was very curious to see the thickness of the barrier here today.
It's a big one.
That's interesting.
Do you feel safe on this side of the barrier?
You know what?
I'm in two minds.
I feel physically safe on this side of the barrier, but I also feel like it could be.
You think that someone might assault you on this side of the barrier?
No, it's not.
I mean, it's just, it's a very sort of atmosphere, I would say, today.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
not saying personally that I think that you know someone's gonna say it's Mike Stutch where you get it but it's um it's more like the tensions are high I agree.
There's a lot of police here.
Much more police here than for your standard, you know.
Honestly, I'm glad about that, to be honest.
Because I have to say, I was on the other side of the barrier for a while and I didn't feel very safe physically.
I mean, what do you think?
Did you go or did you go and talk to people?
Yeah, yeah, I was trying to have a dialogue with them, I was trying to figure out why they thought you could be racist to a set of ideas.
And it didn't really get very far, but not for lack of trying.
But then the police officer came along and said, look, it's getting a bit unsafe.
You might want to go on the other side.
Yeah.
Well, I'm in two minds at this.
I mean, I know in my heart of hearts that you're not a fascist guy.
Oh, thank you very much.
I mean, I know.
I mean, the evidence is there.
I mean, you might have people that I disagree with on a very basic fundamental level, but at the same time, you're not aiding and abetting them in a way that makes them...
I actively fight them on the internet, actually.
Yeah, I know you've had debates against people, but I mean, fascism needs to be challenged and stood up to.
But I mean, I'm probably one of the worst people for this because I see it everywhere based on my own.
Based on your own ideological lens, right?
Well, a little bit of my own ideology, but I lived in Germany for a few years.
You get sort of very touchy.
Well, not touchy.
Yeah, I lived in Germany for eight years myself, actually.
Feel the temperature, you know.
I spent a lot of time, I mean, one of my university sub- well, my specialties in uni and becoming a teacher was the Second World War and the rise of Nazism.
And I've taught it good 50 or 60 times to 50 or 60 different groups.
So you sort of see the parallel.
So extremism is something that I'm sort of attuned to.
But at the same time, when you have a large group of people sort of ganging up on one person trying to shut them down, then that is a problem.
But I would suggest that at the same time, you know, with this whole Dankula case thing, I see the need for rules and legislation.
I mean, I know he wasn't done under hate speech laws, but it's in the...
Yeah, it's in the ballpark, isn't it?
I understand why.
I understand the need for those laws.
So it's nuanced and it's complex.
I mean, I don't want to throw everybody on that side of the barrier under the bus because God knows I've been on that side of the barrier enough times in my life.
And I've seen some schools, truly scary individuals that would be on this side of the barrier.
And I know the kinds of things that they can get up to.
Well, I agree with you.
I mean, they're undoubtedly, I mean, apparently the EDL, for anyone who probably doesn't know, they turned up behind the Antifar chaps and there was a bit of a set too.
But I mean, I mean, you know, I obviously disagree with their political violence as much as I disagree with Antifiles.
But I don't feel like if you were to if you were to approach the EDL, I feel like they would talk to you.
Whereas I know.
Well, not really, well maybe a little bit, but like, but even then, even if you were like, say a black guy, I think they would talk to you.
Whereas the Antifar guys, they won't really talk to me.
I mean, what do you make of that?
Well, are the Anti-Far guys wearing face stuff and covering?
He's like, some of them talk to you.
Yeah, but I'm not going to identify them, but I'd like to have an exchange of ideas.
Do you not think that's important?
Yeah, I do think it's important.
Here's the thing.
I don't think that, and I think you probably get this because of your fame and renown, but you probably are asked to debate or involve yourself in a discussion 60 or 70 times a day.
Sure, yeah?
And you're not sort of.
You're not bound.
No, that's true, but you would think that some of them would come down for a dialogue in some way.
I would hope they would.
I would hope they would.
It looks like they're not, though, generally.
I mean, do you not think that's to the failing of the far left?
I think that that's a...
Failing's an interesting word.
I think it's the self-defense mechanism of the left that quite often they will find it hard to send a representative out to talk to people because of the consequences of what happens to you if you're a far-left figure who is quite mouthy.
Well, you either turn into Owen Jones, okay, yeah, you do all right.
Or, let's look back through history, you know, you've got people like Rosa Luxemburg and stuff like that who went up in the bottom of a canal.
Sure, but I mean, I think that we're in different times.
I really don't think it's necessarily a parallel.
I mean, for example, I don't think there's any breakdown of law and order in this country, do you?
Depends.
I mean, well, I mean, we've got five vans behind us.
What I'm curious, I mean, depends where you are.
I mean, policing, policing is an issue.
That's a completely different thing.
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to get into the partisan politics of that, but in principle is maintained in Britain, yes.
So I can't see any justification for the instigation of violence on either side.
Because, I mean, the whole point of the liberal state is to give the state the monopoly on violence, so we have to talk to one another.
So if you turn up in a black mask, and I mean, I've had plenty of people threaten.
He was in the crowd, he was threatened.
Like, you know, that's just flat unacceptable, isn't it?
It says anti-communist action.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean he should be threatened, does it?
Well, really?
No, no, I don't think he should be threatened.
I mean, I've had people who have been punched already for being on the other side of the barrier.
I mean, that's flat unacceptable, isn't it?
I've saw some people being punched on this side of the barrier.
And that's flat unacceptable, isn't it?
Yeah, as long as you sort of maintain that across the board.
Absolutely.
Isn't that acceptable?
Again, just in my experience today, I haven't met anyone yet who's been punched by this side, but I have met people who have been punched by the other side.
It's pretty feisty about 10 minutes before you turn up.
I'm not saying that there aren't people who didn't turn up to have a fight.
There are definitely people who turned up to have a fight on both sides.
But I mean, I just find that people on this side of the barrier are much more willing to talk, whereas people on the other side of the barrier seem to have already made up their minds and decided that there is no point in a conversation.
What do you think?
I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that we have five police fans, innumerable member of my numbers of police, a very professional sound.
It looks very professional.
Yeah, it's amazing.
It is a space that has been made to look very safe and welcoming.
Well, that's good, isn't it?
I mean, that's sort of like an irony in itself.
Well, I mean, they've had to make this space so that you can't come in and sort of destroy the space.
Yeah, it does make sense, but...
Isn't it...
I mean, it's kind of inevitable that the anarchists wouldn't be very happy with police presence, I suppose, isn't it?
I mean, they're never happy with the police presence.
That's true.
No, I mean, look, I understand.
I will agree with you that on this side of the barrier, there is more of an opportunity to talk.
I would suggest on that other side of the barrier, there is more opportunity.
Well, there is a stronger, louder, more unified voice.
And I wonder, I don't think it could be done justice in you and me just having a chat here for five minutes, but I think there's systemic things going on that mean that the far left has found its voice in a union, in a community of a group of people.
A collective.
A collective of people.
Call it what you want, Carl.
I think that's what they would call it, isn't it?
A collective.
A group of people.
Whereas the right, who have much more capital and the amount of money around here today is astounding, they've been able to create their own space.
So it's a lot of political science here in a nutshell.
Okay, well, finally then, do you think they should have the right to protest?
Of course.
Absolutely.
Everybody should have the right to protest.
If there is a clear and present threat of violence, I'm not seeing that there.
I mean, you have said that there are...
I have personally spoken to people who have been...
There have been f that, you know, they're actively going to come breaking windows or things like that, then.
Concerned about the The property damage and the personal damage, you know.
I think that's again, that's a thing that we could go into great detail, but it's you know, in summary, it's far too complex.
I think that's one of the things that many people are sort of won't realize about today is that, you know, there is the question of free speech that's arisen.
Have their own ideas of what that means, and they're never going to mesh.
They're never going to come together.
And that sort of negotiation is solved in 100 years, and it's not going to be solved in a thousand years.
Well, I mean, at least we can agree that everyone should have the right to protest.
Those chaps over there and those chaps over there.
Mike, thank you very much.
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