Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin - On Israel and Palestine from an Israeli's Perspective

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July 19, 2014 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin

01:53:31

On Israel and Palestine from an Israeli's Perspective

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	Hello everyone.
	I'm sure that you're all well aware of the kerfuffle that's going on in Israel and Gaza at the moment.
	So I thought that well, Skeptor approached me because he'd like to talk about it.
	And I think I'd definitely like to hear as many perspectives on the situation as I can.
	And so he's going to relate his experiences and then I'm going to talk to him about them.
	I'd like to ask everyone to remain calm.
	I realize this is quite an emotive subject.
	But we're all adults here, so I'm sure we can all get along.
	Right, if you'd like to introduce yourself.
	Yeah, thank you very much.
	Hello, everyone.
	This is my first Hangout.
	And I'm just going to say that I'm not a native speaker, so excuse my broken English.
	I hope you understand what I'm saying.
	Now I'm almost 40.
	I'm from central Israel.
	And I have my own channel, and I'm talking about a lot of stuff.
	I'm an atheist, and I used to be left-wing on the left.
	And during the course of time, I've a bit changed my mind.
	I'm not saying I'm right or right-wing, but I'm definitely not left-wing anymore on the left.
	You've become a centrist.
	Yeah, centrist tending toward right and right in Israel right now is not the same like right in many other countries because the spectrum here I think it's much more wider because there's a lot of people having a lot of opinions on opinions on many on many on many things.
	So I grew up in quite an open mind and tolerant family that was a left-wing family and I remember that my first memory of this conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians was on the first Intifada in 1986.
	And since then I thought that the Palestinians should deserve their own state because I think that everyone is equal in terms of in human terms and everyone wants the same thing.
	So, as the years went by and Israel made the Oslo peace agreements with the Palestinians, I was very happy.
	I voted for the probably the most left-wing party in Israel and up until the year 2000 I was quite a leftist.
	And even though during the 90s there was a lot of suicide bombers going on and a lot of people died, I still thought that we should, you know, ignore that, because that's what the terrorists want and we are, you know, going forward to peace and we're not gonna let that stop us.
	And I think the first time I was a bit shocked about the whole situation was in the year 2000, when the second Intifada started.
	I don't know if many people remember this, but two Israeli soldiers accidentally went into the, into the territories, and they were lynched by the Palestinian police and there's a famous picture where you see the Palestinian policeman holding his hands up with red blood on them and they just, you know, I saw that live and I was, you know, completely shocked.
	I saw the body thrown down from the second floor and people, just you know, Hovering on it and beating a dead body, and I was completely shocked at that point.
	I was very traumatized by that.
	And in the following years, there was a lot of terror in Israel.
	There was a lot of and that time there was a left-wing government by Ahud Barat, he was the prime minister and the protégé of Itzhak Rabin, who was murdered.
	And he was the one who made the Oslo peace agreements.
	So to keep a long story short, there was a lot of terrorism during that time.
	And slowly I became less and less empathic for what the Palestinians were suffering.
	And just went in.
	I think that's what happened in Israel to a lot of people because there was a big majority of left-wing in Israel and it kind of shrank dramatically over the years.
	And maybe that's unfortunate, but we are so concerned about our own safety right now, then it's hard for us.
	And this is the point I want to make because I saw a lot of videos and a lot of people in the news a lot of talking about how the Palestinian children are dying now in Gaza because of all the bombings.
	And no sane person, and I'm speaking on behalf of like 99% of the Israelis here, no one wants this.
	Really, no one wants to see one child die.
	And now Syrian people, you know, there are a lot of people dying there and there are bitter enemies, historical enemies, but as a father, every time I'm watching those pictures, I'm tearing apart.
	And I feel that I have much, it's much more easy for me to feel that towards the Syrians right now than to the Palestinians because we're kind of very angry towards the Palestinians right now.
	That's it.
	Okay, well, I can understand.
	I mean, I grew up in Britain, and towards the end of the Troubles, where we had a lot of terrorism from the IRA.
	From the IRA, yeah.
	To the point where they made an attempt on Margaret Thatcher's life, who was the Prime Minister at the time.
	And they nearly basically blew up a hotel and nearly killed her.
	Not that anyone really would have been that bothered, but it's the principle of the thing, isn't it?
	Of course.
	Yeah, so I understand what it's like to live in a state that is suffering from endemic terrorism from a close neighbor.
	I wouldn't say that I've been particularly affected by it.
	Probably not in the same way as Raelis have been affected by it.
	So I like to think that I can sympathize at least somewhat.
	So what's your position on the current situation in Gaza then?
	Because as I understand it, three Israelis were found dead.
	And this triggered basically airstrikes on the Palestinians.
	Yeah, so that's a very common misconception and it's propagated by a lot of liars on the internet and a lot of people that don't know the real facts actually fall for that.
	And that's why I'm making a video about it right now and I hope I will release it tomorrow because it's a lot of editing.
	But I'll just Some stuff that you can check on the internet and see for yourself.
	Yes, it didn't start with the three Israeli children that were abducted and murdered.
	This just escalated something that was already there.
	After they were murdered, there was a Palestinian child that was abducted and brutally murdered by Israeli terrorists.
	And I think they should get the same treatment as the Palestinian terrorists in my perspective.
	And I think if you nobody knows that, but a lot of Israelis went to condone the Palestinian family that their child was murdered.
	And a lot of people showed solidarity with them, even the Prime Minister and the President.
	Everyone condemned it.
	And I don't want to sound like an asshole, but I don't think we would have received the same treatment from the Palestinian Authority, and especially not from the Hamas government.
	No.
	I don't think you would.
	I think before we carry on, I think I'll make my position on what my feelings towards this is.
	Just so everyone's clear.
	I think that the Palestinians are taking the option of last resort.
	I think that they have very little going for them.
	And I think that it's not their fault that they have very little going for them.
	And I can see why they don't want to negotiate.
	And so I wouldn't expect them to give any sympathy to Israel.
	And not because I think that they're incapable of sympathy or anything like that.
	I rather think it's more historical injustices that are going to prevent them from being able to do that.
	I can tell this is raising hackles.
	No, no, no.
	Actually, you made a great point because they don't have a lot of reason to give sympathy, and I agree with that.
	And actually, you're just saying the same thing that I started by saying that we grow less and less sympathetic towards Palestinians for probably basically the same reasons.
	So it's a vicious cycle.
	Yeah, I think it is a vicious cycle.
	But I'm the sort of person who always have to play devil's advocate.
	If it was the other way around and the Israelis were getting airstriked by, say, I don't know, Egypt or something like that, and everyone was saying, oh, well, the Israelis deserved it, I would be arguing for Israel.
	Listen, to be as devilish as you can, to ask the most difficult question as you can, because this is not about petting each other's backs.
	This is about doing a real debate.
	And this is what I expect.
	I'd like to think of it more as a discussion.
	Yeah, by nature, quite combative, aren't they?
	Combatative.
	Okay, so continuing my point.
	So there was the first murders, and then the second murder by the little Palestinian kid.
	Then they started rioting in Israel.
	There was a lot of riots in Israel, but they calmed down.
	They were about the murder of an Israel.
	Well, yeah, because when people found out that he was murdered by Israelis, then Even Israeli Arabs, which are very peaceful and very friendly, and we live in a lot of harmony.
	You should come to Jaffa and Tira and see that you go into an Arab town and you see so many Israelis in the markets and it's something I think most people don't ever thought could happen.
	But to the point, so after the second murder and the riots, this is a fact that most people don't know.
	Hamas is firing rockets and mortar shells on Israel on a weekly basis for like two years now.
	Yeah, you can actually get a good list of attacks on Wikipedia.
	Yeah, and I have a very long list.
	Yeah, in the link, just write in Wikipedia, list of Hamas firing on Israel, and you'll find it.
	And the week before the Operation Protective Edge started, Hamas intensified those rockets.
	And they just fired one rocket very close to the border, nothing serious.
	But at that week, there were rockets on central Israel, on Beir Sheva, Ashkelon.
	These are cities far away from the Gaza Strip.
	And these missiles, which everybody calls puny missiles, are actually 20-kilogram warhead and they can do a lot of damage.
	And one of them landed 500 meters from my house.
	You can Google Rich on Latzion and see an apartment building.
	Two buildings were destroyed.
	And if Israel did not have a sh bomb shelter in each apartment, we have actually bomb shelters in the apartments.
	One room is a bomb shelter.
	And this is a legacy from the first Iraq war when Scott missiles fell here.
	Right, okay.
	Sorry, go on.
	Yeah, so they intensified the bombing, you know, the rockets towards Israel.
	And if you can look at the news on July 4th, the Israeli government said, you'll be quiet.
	You know, you'll be calm, we'll be calm, stop shooting.
	And eventually the operation started.
	So it didn't come from the kidnapping and some kind of revenge because of the kidnapping of the three children.
	Israel will find and probably will find the responsible parties and deal with them.
	I hope so.
	So this is a misconception.
	Right, okay.
	So the airstrikes are a direct result of Hamas rocket attacks, is what you're saying.
	Yeah, and that's the official response of the IDF if you'll try to look for it.
	Okay.
	No, no, I'm more than happy to take your word for it.
	I don't think that you're going to be disingenuous in any way.
	Yeah, just looking up the annual number of attacks and casualties.
	Since 2001, so 13 years, there's been 28 casualties.
	And so it seems awfully difficult to do.
	From just from rockets?
	From rocket attacks, yeah.
	Sorry, I don't know about any other kind of attacks.
	Yeah, it's close to 1,000, or maybe even more than 1,000, since the year 2000.
	What, dead?
	Yeah.
	Why wouldn't that be listed on Wikipedia then?
	I can't give you a link.
	It's mostly portrayed by suicide bombers, snipers.
	Oh, right.
	Yeah, okay.
	I'm just talking about the rocket attacks.
	Yeah, I'm not.
	Yeah, okay.
	So the rockets, yeah.
	You're right.
	The numbers are not profunctional.
	No, the the the rockets seem to be incredibly ineffective.
	Um if if I were a commander, I'd be looking at the money spent on these rockets and saying, No, that's a waste of time.
	You know, that's a waste of money, that's not that's not advancing whatever cause Hamas is trying to advance.
	So I mean why do you think they still do it?
	Okay, so uh Hamas, you know, has uh a lot of agendas that maybe some people don't understand.
	Uh they are under siege, they are under a lot of stress, they don't have money, and pressure is building there there.
	And uh the only way that they can draw attention, the world's attention to themselves is by doing two very cynical things.
	They fire first fire rockets on Israel to you know, we had these two rounds already, you know, two operations, and after a few after some times they had some attention and they had a victory picture to show, so they said let's do a ceasefire.
	And then we had a ceasefire for a couple of years and now it's another round.
	And they need attention again, they need people to address them and the only way they can do it is by probably is by sh making the area a little bit to do to create some kind of tension and war in the area.
	So now all the cameras and all the news and all the media and all the public opinion all over the world, if you saw all the all the protests that happened in Europe in the last week in Barcelona, in France, in England, pro-Palestinian and Turkey was a huge one.
	The Turkish prime minister said Israel is doing genocide and they are acting like Nazis and everybody's out for blood now.
	So it kind of serves their purpose.
	And I think that and I know I'm gonna start up a lot of I'm gonna annoy a lot of people right now by saying but this is true.
	The only reason that they are shooting from inside a civilian population because a lot of the space in Gaza is actually unpopulated and you can check it.
	But they do it specifically from inside civilian population because unfortunately the the the pictures of dead kids served them and not us.
	You know, when such you know, Israel, if you think about it rationally, the best interest for Israel is that zero Palestinians would be killed because then we can just go in with tanks and missiles and armies and you know take them out.
	But the moment you start seeing all over the news pictures of little children, then you everybody's putting the pressure on us.
	And so this doesn't serve us.
	This is actually very harmful.
	And I think this is why Israel, when it you know, it sends bombers to bomb something, they call the house, you can listen to a chat.
	Yeah, no, I am aware of that actually.
	Yeah, and they throw leaflets and they warn people to go out.
	But Hamas, you know, they say don't move, stay on the roof.
	So they do it quite cynically and in my opinion, very it's a very disgusting thing to do.
	In in Hamas's defense though, what options do they have?
	Well, they don't have options because they've cornered themselves to a very bad predicament.
	They declared they are declaring war on Israel.
	They're not going to back out of it because they belong to the Muslim Brotherhood and their charter is to destroy the land of Israel, kill all the Jews.
	It's written in the charter, and take over the entire area.
	And nobody is backing them up right now except maybe Iran and Saudi Arabia.
	No, actually, no.
	I don't know if they're.
	I actually checked.
	Hang on, let me see.
	Really?
	Yeah, I actually did a hell of a lot more research for this than I've done for anyone else on anything.
	I realized that this was going to be quite a stressful one.
	Let me just find it.
	I'll tell you why it's interesting because Saudi Arabia and Iran are bitter enemies.
	They're Sunnis and Shiites.
	Sorry, no, it's not for Hamas.
	Sorry.
	It's for the Palestinian people.
	Yeah, because Hamas is encodes with the Shiite movements.
	Yeah, they get funded by Iran, don't they?
	Yeah.
	by a large degree.
	So I'd be very skeptical if both of them...
	Yeah, sorry, yeah, that was my mistake.
	How much...
	How much of that aid do you think actually reaches the Palestinian people, though?
	Because Hamas are actually the government of Palestine or the Gaza Strip or something, aren't they?
	So if you just research it, then you'll find out that Israel is actually funneling a lot of money from the international community and from, you know, that comes from also from indirectly from the Arabs into Hamas because it's a humanitarian issue.
	People need to eat and there are hundreds of trucks going in with food and everything and they owe the Israeli electric company like a billion dollars.
	And that's actually almost the entire debt of the deficit of the Israeli electric company.
	So they get money and they get concrete and they get food.
	And they use the concrete to build tunnels.
	I don't know if it's on the media, on your media, but the IDF just located almost 40 tunnels reaching Israeli settlements outside the Gaza Strip.
	Well, I'd just like to present it from what it appears that the Palestinian position is from the outside.
	So from the outside, not necessarily the West Bank, but I think there do appear to be many Israeli settlements on the West Bank that are illegal.
	Is that correct?
	In my perspective, yes.
	Right.
	What can the Palestinians do about that?
	It's a very, very rough question, but I don't know what they can do about it.
	I know that historically they had and I'm not talking about the Palestinians because that wasn't their choice.
	I'm talking about Al-Afat and Mahmoud Abbas.
	They had two or three cases where they could get like 95 to 96% of the occupied territories.
	That meant that the Israeli government would remove settlements like we did historically many times in Yamit when we vacated the Sinai desert to make peace with Egypt and look how that turned out.
	And we did it when we vacated settlements near Gaza and look how that turned out.
	If I was going to be cynical, I'd say that it's quite easy to abandon the Sinai desert because it's a desert.
	Well, actually, it has a lot of oil.
	So if you're talking about Strategically smart, you know, we gave a lot of yeah, so yeah, in the desert we did that, but when we evacuated the settlements from the Gaza Strip or near the Gaza Strip, we did it without asking for anything in return.
	We just took the people, got them out of there.
	Because the government at that point of time decided that this is probably the best way to make things go a little bit easier for the following years.
	And two prime ministers, or maybe three prime ministers, I think it was Itzhak Rabin, Ehud Barak, and Ehud Olmert in 2005 in the Annapolis Convention and in the Camp David talks with the Aser Arafat.
	They were offered almost all the 67 borders, all the land in the 67 borders.
	And the leaders said no, unfortunately for all of us, for the Palestinians.
	Why did they say no?
	Well, I think that's the million dollar question.
	Why did they say no?
	I made a video that speculated that if tomorrow Palestine would be a sovereign country in the West Bank and in Gaza, then it would be a very poor country.
	And once the spotlight would be removed from Israel and the government would need to answer to its own people why they are poor and there is no industry almost over there and they are very poor.
	I think maybe, and that's a guess that the government afraids of what will happen when they have to answer to the people.
	I find across the Middle East that countries, Arab countries, are not so successful.
	Yeah.
	See, I would also like to postulate that it would legitimize Israel.
	And they, as you say, are directly in favor of the destruction of Israel.
	So I would find it hard to imagine that they would sign an agreement that would then legitimize Israel.
	You know what?
	I would agree with that on Arafat, on Yasel Alafat, because looking back, when he was actually making peace talks with Israel, Israel found out later that he was funding the terrorists that actually did all the suicide bombings in Israel.
	But I don't think that's the case for Mahmoud Abbas.
	Mahmoud Abbas is the most moderate Palestinian leader you can find.
	He never, never advocates for violence.
	He always condemns it.
	And this is quite commendable, in my opinion.
	And also, even if he said that he would never recognize that Israel is a Jewish state, de facto he does.
	I think that's for the masses.
	And I think he's the most sane leader they have.
	And if we're going to way to solve the situation in Gaza is, in my opinion, there's only one solution is that the world with Israel and they would take a lot of soldiers and just go in and remove Hamas and state the Palestinian Authority back there.
	I don't think it's realistically possible to actually remove Hamas.
	I think, I mean, I am aware that they also do quite a lot of social work for the people that rely on them.
	So I think that it's quite easy for them to drum up support, especially when Israel bombs Gaza.
	Yeah, so you're talking about if it's possible hypothetically or it's not possible because of the current situation.
	Well, hypothetically, really.
	I mean, even if you removed the current members of Hamas, I think that the situation has been going on for so long and there have been so many casualties on both sides that another version would probably spring up because of the depth of sentiment there.
	Yeah, so this is not, of course, this is not a quick solution what I'm talking about.
	I'm talking about doing like what the US did in Japan and in Germany, slowly rebuilding a same government and funneling money to build infrastructure, but not funneling it to a terrorist organization that just takes it and buys rockets or builds rockets.
	It's a very complex issue, I understand, but I don't see any way around it.
	No, I'm not going to pretend I've got any answers.
	There are a few things that I can understand from the Palestinian position.
	The first one, I think, is the territorial expansion of Israel.
	I mean, you've seen the sort of graphic that's on the internet, surely, of the 1948 Balfour Declaration and then to the current position.
	What do you think of that?
	Okay, so maybe a quick historical recap.
	I know you like history.
	I do.
	Yeah, and I marked my, you know, the videos that you make about Sargon.
	I started watching them.
	I hope they're enjoyable.
	But a lot of misconception over there also.
	So in the historical sense, in the 19th century, there was almost no population in the area.
	There were a few hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and a few Jews, very few Jews.
	But the land was very desolate, and you can see quotes from Mark Twain that did a book about traveling to Palestine.
	He said, I've gone from miles and miles and haven't seen a live soul.
	So in the 20th century, there was a lot of Jewish immigration to the land of Palestine, which was under the Ottoman Empire, then later under the British mandate.
	And I think it was 1929 where the UN, not the UN, excuse me, I don't think it was the UN back then.
	I think it was the British mandate that said, let's divide the land 80% for Palestinians, 20% for Jews.
	The Caliphate at that time refused, and they did the same thing in 1948 when the UN decided to split the land 50-50.
	Actually, they didn't do that.
	They split the land, which was Palestine and Transjordan, to Jordan, which became Jordan.
	And they thought about establishing a Jewish state on 50% of the land in Palestine.
	And they gave the rest of the 50% to the Palestinian people, which were actually called Arabs then.
	So again, the leader refused because he thought they could take out the new Jewish state in a matter of few days because then seven armies attacked us at once.
	Yeah, I'm aware of the war of independence.
	So At that point of time, Jordan, because they refused to take the territory as their own, Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza.
	And the reason it's called the 67 borders is because of the 67 war when we made the fatal mistake of conquering those territories and not giving them back immediately or getting out of there.
	And it became our legacy to solve.
	So then, of course, what happens is that what happened is that because of the feud between Israelis and Palestinians, the Israeli government decided to start building settlements as a way to put pressure on Palestinians to come to, I don't know, maybe to start talking, you know, like agreeing on splitting the land.
	I don't really know.
	I'm guessing here.
	But it was kind of a way for leveraging, to put leverage on the Palestinians.
	So it started bit by bit.
	And then, of course, there's a group of Israelis who are Zionist, religious Zionists, not the secular Zionists that many people like me are.
	But they do think that the land was given to them by God and all that crap.
	Yeah, yeah, of course.
	And they went there and they started building more and more settlements.
	And I know it's wrong, but as time went by, and the Palestinians and the Israelis haven't been able to make a final agreement to finalize the agreement and the conflict, more and more settlements are being built, and that's unfortunate in my eyes.
	So that's how history unfolded.
	I've got a couple of points I'd like to make.
	When you say the land only had a few hundred thousand people, that's true, obviously.
	But the global population in about 1950 was only 2.5 billion.
	So proportionally, it's probably not that far off what it is today.
	I'm not sure because there was a lot of immigration of Jews and Arabs during that time, the early 20th century.
	Jews started cultivating the land, and Arabs just came from.
	There's a funny Israeli Facebook is really funny because you can see all kinds of crazy stuff.
	A confession from a Hamas leader that says that there's no such thing as just Palestinian peoples.
	There are actually Egyptians and Saudis that came to the land of Palestine because they wanted those countries to support him.
	How true is that?
	It's actually, there was a lot of immigration to the land of Palestine.
	You know that now the Palestinians in Gaza are 2 million, just in Gaza.
	So the growth rate is out from, you know, how do you say through the roof?
	Through the roof, yeah, yeah, exactly.
	So you can just look at the charts and see that there was immigration to the Palestine.
	So, yeah, but they were the majority.
	I'm not saying they weren't.
	They were the vast majority.
	Just to interrupt that, is it really any wonder, given the scale of Jewish immigration to Israel, that they would they would it it probably wasn't accidental, you know it was probably it it it would seem to be a response, a proportional response.
	If you're talking about the resentment that Jews came to the land of Israel, yeah, I can understand that.
	But that's a historical fact that we cannot change anymore.
	That's true.
	That's absolutely true.
	The last thing I would ever do is pin the sins of the father on the son.
	So obviously no one's expecting you to answer for your government.
	Unless you're part of the government, and then maybe they won't.
	I'm actually an engineer, that's it.
	So I've got you mentioned you mentioned that if Palestine became an independent state, it would be a very poor state.
	Yeah.
	Now, sorry, was there something you said?
	Yeah, you're going to ask a question.
	Yeah, well, see, this whole expansion of Israeli territory that they shouldn't have had, but now they do, and there's not really a lot that can be done about it.
	It does seem that by and large it was done maliciously at the Palestinians' expense.
	As I said, I don't agree with the religious point of view on taking.
	I'm not expecting you to justify it.
	So, yeah, I'm not justifying it.
	I'm not expecting you to take responsibility for it, but that's how it seems from an outsider's perspective, and it does very much seem like, this appears to be, I mean there are many historical parallels, but I would actually, I mean the first thing that sprung to mind was the Roman annexation of the Samnites.
	The Samnites were an Italian people from central Italy that the Romans had three wars with, and eventually they kind of defeated them by just slowly annexing their land by building settlements on it.
	Because Rome was a giant concentrated city, whereas the Samnites were a collection of scattered villages in the mountains.
	And so they didn't really have the ability to stop Rome from doing this.
	And it kind of seems like that's happening now.
	The Palestinians are losing land by degrees.
	And there doesn't seem to be an awful lot the Palestinians can do about it.
	So when you've got Hamas just constantly firing rockets and they're ineffectual, and it's hard not to...
	I disagree that they're not ineffective, if that's what you're saying.
	I...
	I understand that on a personal level they're probably very effective.
	But in 100 years' time, when historians look back on this, 28 casualties from thousands of rockets will be considered pretty ineffectual.
	That's not the effect that this is the, you know, looking at in a very small way, if you look at they are they are making the they are making the Israeli government go by foot into Gaza and they are dragging the entire they are burning the entire area.
	So yeah, they are in a way sort of forcing the Israeli government to commit acts that, like you said, are directly against their own self-interest.
	Yes.
	But the thing but this is actually my point.
	When you you you translated that um that bit from that Rye Dawson video for me, um the the lady was like the Palestinian people have declared war on us or the the the Palestinians have declared war on us now it all I'm not there um and I mean I understand the effects of the effects of terror.
	If you look at America after 9-11, it leads to some very bad decisions.
	But the thing is as someone who's removed from it, I can't help but you know, when she says they've declared war on us, the first thing you say is well, okay, what are their forces like?
	And it turns out they don't have an army, they don't have a navy, they don't have any air force.
	So why does it matter?
	Because I'll tell you this is I think this is the essence of this argument, what you're saying right now, because if you have a nation and I'm just I'm not saying that's true, but if you have a nation that declares wars on you, declares war on you, and they are much weaker than you are, but they also are able to harm you, you know, kill your citizens, even though it's not a life threat, you know,
	it doesn't put Israel in danger, in mortal danger, they are still declaring war on you and they are still fighting you.
	So I know it's hard to understand that a country which has a much stronger army should have the legitimacy to fight back and we're not using our entire force and armies.
	No, no, I know, I know, I know.
	We're not going to all-scale war here.
	I know.
	I mean, I'm well aware that at any point Israel could just roll in and flatten Gaza.
	Well aware.
	But my point is that there's a reason that Britain didn't say that the IRA have declared war on Britain and it's because I do completely understand that it's very dangerous for individual Israelis who are especially near Gaza.
	But I'm just trying to think of a good way of phrasing it.
	Ireland back then wished the English people or the majority of them wished death to the entire English people.
	I don't think that was the case and I don't think you can.
	I actually think you can because England is the reason that there are only about 7 million people in Ireland.
	Whereas about 150 years ago there are about twice that many.
	England has not had a very nice history with Ireland.
	There are a lot of Irish who just dislike the English.
	Disliked or want them dead?
	Want them dead.
	I'm not joking.
	I mean it was almost 40 years of terrorism.
	It was bad.
	So I can honestly say it's not I mean there have been hundreds of terrorist attacks in England by the IRA.
	What resolved it between Ireland and England?
	Basically you can't bomb them because that the only thing I'm asking what what how did England and Ireland resolve it?
	It was decades and decades of negotiations but that was only possible because Britain didn't bomb Ireland.
	That was the only reason it could happen, because I th if if they had, then that would have just created so many more terrorists than there were before, and that's that's essentially the problem that Israel is always going to have while it uses force against the Palestinians.
	So let me ask you this and try to uh answer this question, um for uh, I think, almost a decade, a decade, we uh uh, less than a decade, we uh negotiated with Palestinians peacefully and with, not under rockets, and there was no bombings except the suicide bombers.
	And uh now Hamas is firing rockets on Israel.
	So how do you expect the Israeli government and the Israeli people to negotiate with?
	We cannot negotiate with Hamas.
	They don't want to negotiate peace with us.
	But we are negotiating with the Palestinian authority, but they are firing.
	You can you remember?
	You can see it on Wikipedia.
	They have been firing for the last two years every week, and they escalated the situation uh week before we started the operation.
	So what do you expect the uh?
	Do you expect the Israeli government not to do anything about this and just go on continuing?
	Uh peace talks with the authority?
	I'm i'm not saying I don't expect them to do anything.
	Um the this.
	I mean uh, the the.
	The most obvious difference is Israel has, in recent in living memory, had existential threats.
	So I I can fully understand why people in Israel would not want to stop defending themselves, because I imagine that there is quite a depth of feeling in Israel that one day, thousands and thousands and thousands of Arabs are going to come in and kill everyone.
	That's probably a great fear in Israel, right?
	Actually, right now, no, that's not the fear from Hamas.
	Not from Hamas specifically.
	I understand what he's saying.
	Yeah, I know that old fear that you're talking about.
	And of course it's in the mindset of every Israeli.
	We hear about it, talk about it, but but your point here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that because Israel is not under a mortal threat,
	then are you saying that we should not retaliate for getting being bombed by rockets that reach almost every city in Israel and when they fall down they can kill people and they did kill people.
	I think it's the number is sixty, not twenty, but that doesn't matter actually.
	But they cause a lot of trauma because when you know people in the south, in southern Israel, that has been under these bomb, under these rockets for seven years now, before a lot long before Israel has ever attacked Gaza, they are, they ran to shelter they, they run to shelter like on an hourly basis, day and night, and and imagine, you know,
	having a child and he grows and he's seven years old and all his life is under bombardment and this costs also.
	Yeah, it's not a mortal, it's not a mortal uh thing, but but you know, it's not something to be trivialized.
	No, no, no, no.
	I'm not I I I'm honestly I I'm sorry if you feel that I am.
	I'm really not.
	When I was growing up, my dad was in the forces.
	And so we would have in school all the time things like, don't walk back from school the same way you came to school.
	Don't walk back the same way twice, you know.
	And all over the place.
	It was, you know, make sure that you check under your car before you get in your car, you know, because there might be a bomb there and things like that.
	It was very, very much focused on the fact that we were suffering from terrorism.
	But did you experience explosions?
	Did you experience real life?
	I personally didn't.
	OK, so I'm telling you, this is a world of difference between I've grown up being told not to touch unidentified bags on the floor and stuff like that.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah, we've heard that.
	But there's a big, huge difference when you hear the boom and you see the windows in your house, just shaking from the blast and realizing that it's real, feeling how real it is.
	And when you do it, when you have little kids and you hear the sirens, they are very, very disturbing and they are very, very frightening.
	And you look at your little kid and you're running for the shelter and you are afraid that something would happen to them.
	It's a life-changer to experience such a thing.
	And I'm not saying it's mortal.
	It's a mortal danger to Israel.
	I'm not saying that.
	I know.
	I know.
	I'm saying that this is an intolerable situation to live in, not for a period of time, but constantly.
	No, no, I genuinely can appreciate that.
	I mean, I personally never had that.
	So going back to the point.
	When I was a kid, it was all over the news.
	It was something that was very present, even though the explosions weren't genuinely happening.
	I guess that I'm really thinking of more sort of long-term big picture solution.
	I understand.
	But you asked the question, a very good one.
	And that was: should Israel reply to what Hamas is doing?
	Or should it try to just not do anything or not bomb them back so they would be able to continue the peace talks?
	Right.
	I think we've tried it for like six years, you know, before the first operation.
	I know.
	I know.
	Hang on.
	Right.
	So the problem is that if you bomb Hamas, and by extension, Palestinians and Gazans, then you are realistically, you've got two options here.
	The first one is to eradicate them.
	That solves the problem.
	If you don't eradicate them, all you do is create more terrorists.
	All you do is create more people who hate you, more people who are going to grow up missing family members and who are going to launch rockets at you when they're old enough to do so.
	So it's not that I don't think you should respond.
	It's more that I think it's foolish to respond.
	It doesn't help.
	You know, you make a very good point, and rationally, I agree with you.
	I can understand how it must be terrifying to have bombs exploding in your city, though.
	I really do.
	Nobody has an idea until he experiences it himself.
	Yeah, sorry, I can empathize.
	It's not like an expression.
	So, yeah, that's fine.
	So what I'm getting at is There is an attempt to make Hamas weaker and weaker.
	It's a war of attrition that Israel is doing the siege, and now nobody backs Hamas, I think, in the international community.
	I'm talking about not talking about just people, I'm talking about governments.
	The Egyptians told them basically to go to hell.
	Angela Merkel said and a lot of officials said that Israel has the right to defend themselves.
	Of course, this is a very fragile state, but I think I'm speculating that the Israeli strategy is just to hope that maybe the Palestinian people would eventually take down Hamas themselves out of desperation.
	I don't know if it's going to work.
	Now, I think that that's the only option.
	I think I suppose wiping out the Palestinians would be the other option, but obviously that's not what Israel has to do.
	That's not an option, and Israel would never do that.
	Exactly.
	When I say option, you know what I mean.
	I don't think that most people in Israel want that.
	But the thing is, it's probably getting Hamas more support for every Israeli bomb that's dropped.
	And not just within Palestine and Gaza either, but worldwide.
	The reason we're doing this is because Israel looks awful.
	And even if recently they fired a few rockets and the Iron Dome let one through and it killed a civilian.
	And I understand that from a personal perspective, that's a tragedy and it's terrifying.
	But it is disproportionate to then go and kill almost 400 Palestinians for that.
	I know that Israel wants to defend itself and I agree that it should defend itself.
	But I think that defending itself doesn't always mean dropping bombs.
	It doesn't always mean a ground assault.
	Because I mean, all that does is give Hamas ammo.
	You may as well be loading their assault rifles for them.
	Because they and I'm not saying you personally, obviously, but like Israel is a state.
	What they're doing there is just giving them an argument.
	So when they're in their marketplaces or in their, they don't have pubs, do they?
	They wherever actually?
	Yeah, they have pubs and a lot of places that they hang out when there are normal times, you know not right, great beach and hotels and stuff.
	Yeah um, so it's you know when.
	When they're, when they're when they're having social gatherings and they're talking about their loved ones who have been killed by Israeli bombs, and then you might have, you know, people who are just like trying to get by, but you know young men who have lost family members, and then you've got someone, Someone from Hamas, saying, look, we're going to fight them because they've annexed us down to nothing, almost.
	We're barricaded in Gaza.
	We can't leave.
	We're always hungry.
	We don't have enough electricity.
	They drop bombs on us.
	What are they going to do?
	I would fight.
	I would fight.
	I'm going to say that the point that you made is probably the worst dilemma the Israeli government has to address.
	And I think Netanyahu, the prime minister, before the election, he was very militant the way he talked.
	But the way Israelis see it now is that he was very, very moderate and did everything very, very slowly.
	He didn't want to escalate the situation.
	A few days before the operation started, he said, Hamas, please come down.
	We won't attack you back.
	And we did two ceasefires unilaterally.
	We hoped that Hamas would accept it.
	They didn't.
	And now there's this big question.
	Is it more economical?
	And I'm very, very maybe cynical about this or very, very distant emotionally from this.
	But is it more economical to go and do the operation or just sit back and grind your teeth or bite your lip?
	And what's the best way to get the best result for Israel?
	And this, I think, is a very good question that you ask.
	And I don't think we have all the pieces of the puzzle to really answer this.
	Yeah, no, I agree with you.
	I agree with you.
	The thing is I want to address another thing that you said about the Palestinians sitting in the cafes and talking about this stuff.
	There are a lot of Palestinians that think Hamas is responsible for the misery.
	Don't think for a second there aren't people like that.
	No, no, no.
	Obviously, there are a lot of people there that feel that way, but they have no way to say it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I imagine that I can imagine that when you've got Hamas basically stirring up sort of Islamic and Palestinian sort of national pride, and when there are Israeli bombs dropping, it's probably a very unpopular opinion to be against Hamas.
	I mean, I don't know.
	I'm just assuming.
	No, I think I've seen an article where Israeli journalist talked to a Palestinian incognito, and he said that there are a lot of Palestinians that think that Hamas, since Hamas has been there, everything has gone for the worst.
	They are looking at the West Bank, and they see Palestinians come and go as they wish.
	They go into Israel, work in Israel, go back.
	They don't have it as bad as the people in Gaza.
	And they realize that.
	And they want to get away and run from Gaza and go to Egypt, go to the West Bank, just not to be under Hamas law, because it's a totalitarian military regime that kills and stifles everyone who resists.
	And they are afraid.
	And half of them are afraid.
	Half of them are brainwashed by the propaganda that they see in the television.
	They indoctrinate kids from age zero to be martyrs.
	It's very easy to do, given Israel's actions.
	That's the problem.
	He's getting his way.
	You're right.
	Hamas is getting his way.
	But it's only getting its way because Israel acts as Israel acts, and therefore it's so easy to persuade people into Hamas's way.
	I mean, I would have trouble not doing that myself.
	If, for example, the French invaded England and then they took part of England and said, right, we're going to settle Germans in England, I'd be like, well, Jesus Christ.
	And then if the Germans took most of England and I was living in a small area of England, the Germans were like, look, we just want peace.
	I would be really pissed off about it.
	And then if they were like, look, you can't fight us back.
	You can't fight back, even though you've got no army.
	I'd be like, fuck you, I'm going to fight back.
	It would be about my personal pride now.
	And then if they're bombing and I'd lost my sister and my mother or something, or my child, and it would be so hard to not hate the Germans.
	It would be so hard.
	And so I really can sympathize with the Palestinians.
	No, of course.
	Just to be clear, when I'm calm about this, I'm looking at the Palestinian people and I think they are the most misfortunate people ever existed, almost.
	No, absolutely.
	I agree.
	And if it was up to me, we would all live happily sitting together in cafes, talking, laughing, watching football.
	Not Israeli football because it sucks, but European football.
	Yeah, no, of course.
	But my point is, you know, that when you talked about the big picture, I thought about it for a second and I thought that if Israel had not put the siege on the Gaza Strip, and if Israel did not do anything to any aggressions toward the Gaza Strip, I believe that what I see from Hamas is that they would get more weapons,
	they would be more militant, they would have more resources, and they would escalate it even more to the point that Israel might do a lot, might be dragged into a much more large-scale war.
	My fear is just imagine, for example, that they are now able to penetrate Israeli towns and cities and villages.
	just two days ago they dug up a tunnel day 13 Palestinian Hamas terrorist just came up from did you see that one?
	I actually didn't.
	No, I didn't see it.
	It came out from, yeah, it was all over the news here, but not in the national media.
	There's a footage of 13 Palestinian terrorists coming out of a tunnel very close to an Israeli settlement.
	And they were armed to the teeth.
	And they heard the planes.
	I guess they heard the planes and they bombed the tunnel.
	And I think they ran back.
	And another one, they came from the sea.
	Did you see that one?
	I saw some information about the tunnels.
	Honestly, I haven't had enough time.
	Okay, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	I understand.
	But my point is that I tried to imagine what would happen if they weren't under a very, very strong siege and they would be able to just come in great numbers into Israeli villages, cities, and just starting killing people.
	I think in that point of time, Israel would probably lose its shit altogether and all the place would go to hell very quickly.
	It would, it would.
	But the thing is, I'm actually aware of the Israelis doing that to Palestinians when the land was first settled.
	I can find some documentation for you after this if you want.
	Yeah, I know about that.
	And I know it's in the past, so I'm not blaming anyone alive today, of course.
	But this is my point.
	I don't see how you're ever going to make the Palestinians not want to do that.
	It's the desire to do that that's the problem.
	I think that if you'll go and ask Palestinians in the West Bank, I think you'll be surprised that they are actually not so militant toward Israelis.
	I'm really thinking of Gaza.
	Yeah, I understand.
	I understand.
	So I'm not saying Palestinians, by default, all they want to do is specify John.
	And that's true that the people in Gaza, because they suffered more, they are more angry.
	But if by any miracle the Hamas government will tumble down and I hope that UN forces, a coalition of Americans and Europeans.
	Jesus, don't send the Americans in.
	No, I'm talking about after they'll fall.
	No, no, no.
	I'm talking about humanitarian government.
	Oh, right, okay.
	That's a problem worse than anyone else.
	Christ.
	No, no, I'm not talking about that.
	But taking the Hamas government down.
	And I think if they'll come with a lot of money and start rebuilding Gaza and there would be long term of no shells, no bombings, no spawning aid.
	I think Israel would immediately remove the siege and then everything would start to get better.
	I agree.
	And in that point of time, after a few years like that, maybe the anger and the resentment that you're talking about would slowly go away and people would stop thinking about what happened and will start looking to the future.
	And hopefully in that point of time, they will be able to and then you can put the Palestinian Authority back in Gaza.
	At this point, I think it would be the only way out of this mess.
	I mean, there's the old line of if you wanted to defeat communism, all you have to do is drop genes and something else, you know, genes and I don't know, whatever the Americans produced.
	But basically kindness, basically.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know, that's the thing.
	I imagine that if Israel, instead of dropping bombs, was dropping nice things, then it would be hard for Hamas to get so many recruits.
	It would be, you know, even with the, you know, and literally just literally saying, hey, Hamas is, Hamas keeps rocketing us, but we're not going to retaliate.
	We're going to send you aid packages or money or whatever, you know, whatever they need.
	You know how much packages they get from Israel on a daily basis.
	I know, I know.
	I don't think they actually understand it right now.
	I'm not necessarily thinking food.
	I'm actually thinking luxuries.
	Because giving them food and aid, that's great, because that helps them survive.
	But surviving isn't necessarily living, is it?
	It's not a person.
	Let's entertain this idea for a second.
	I'm with you on this one.
	So let's say we are giving them you know, trucks are going into Gaza and they and of course the Hamas government is taking hold of all that luxury.
	Do you think they're going to give it to the the Gazan people and say this is from the Israelis?
	No, that's the point.
	No, no, no, no, if that's that's the point.
	If Israel starts dropping giant crates for full of iPads and stuff like that and the Gazan government, you know, that Hamas is taking them, and then they're like, yeah, we need to keep fighting Israel.
	Fuck Israel.
	That's a great idea.
	Are the people going to support them?
	That's a great idea.
	That's a great idea.
	I wouldn't fucking support them.
	I'd be like, you it's you cunts who are doing this.
	You know, and that's that's the thing, you know, but if you d drop some bombs, you create more dead Palestinians and then Hamas has got more recruits.
	You know what I mean?
	It's original and quite a great idea.
	I don't think it will eventually solve the problems in the Middle East, but idea altogether.
	Well, that's the thing though, isn't it?
	You know, you want to make Hamas look bad, because I I agree with you.
	I think it probably is Hamas that are the problem.
	You know, they've got a very ideological stance.
	And I don't even begrudge them that.
	I agree with their ideology.
	They have been mistreated.
	I'm not attacking Israel, but these are the facts.
	But the thing is, they've got to know when they've lost.
	They've lost.
	They're not going to win.
	They're not going to destroy Israel.
	They're not going to get out of this any better than if they just laid down their arms now.
	They've lost.
	It's over.
	And I think they're a little bit more cynical than just being Palestinian patriotics because if they were, they probably have taken a different course.
	I think it's about power.
	I agree.
	I'm sorry that I maybe sound cynical about this, but I think that Mahmoud Abbas is a better depiction of someone who makes the wise decisions and tries to bring a better future for Palestinians.
	I have a lot of criticism on what he did in the past, but that's behind us now.
	But at least if you're going to point out that some Palestinian leader is actually in favor of the Palestinian people, Hamas would, in my list, be the last one.
	I think they are doing the most, you know, they are doing they are the most.
	They're the worst, worst enemies of the Palestinian people in my.
	But the thing is, I don't think the Palestinian people will ever see that while they're being bombed, you know I, and that's this is where I disagree, this is where I think that you know they are.
	They are not stupid people.
	They are poor.
	They are, they are, but they are not stupid.
	And they look at the West Bank and they look at what happens to them and they understand that.
	You know they are full of hate.
	I understand that, but I think they're also, you know, as time passes, they realize that as well.
	No no I, I agree I, I don't think they're stupid.
	I don't think anyone.
	I think individuals are stupid and I think crowds can be stupid, but I, you know, I don't think any people as a, you know, an ethnic group or anything like that.
	I don't think they're stupid.
	I think that's, that's that's that's, that's the wrong way to look at things.
	Um, But the thing is, even if there are like 17, 80% of them that are like, you know, that agree with your points and stuff like that, but it's you're always going to get angry young men who have lost family members.
	And it will be I'm absolutely certain that it will be so easy.
	Angry young men grow up and become wise with time.
	And I think this you can see it in every politician that I've ever experienced in Israel.
	I saw a lot of politicians, you know, young, talking like, you know, very, very militant.
	And I think the best example is Ariel Sharon.
	You know, that was he's considered by the Arabs as the Hitler, the Jewish Hitler.
	And because, you know, he fought a lot of Arabs and the Egyptians, the Palestinians in Lebanon, and he got a very, very bad reputation.
	But if you look at the last years of his life, he admitted that we're occupying the Palestinian territories and that's not acceptable.
	And you wouldn't be hearing something from someone from Ariel Sharon.
	You wouldn't be hearing that from Ariel Sharon 20 years earlier.
	Of course, of course.
	But the problem is that in those 20 years, new young men have grown up with dead family members in their memories.
	Even if you say, they grow older and more mature and then they realize that the fighting isn't actually going to help, that doesn't stop the 10-year-olds who have lost their family members becoming 15-year-olds who then get some die-hard Hamas guy convincing them that they should fight the good fight and whatnot.
	Yeah, that's right.
	But if my hypothetical plan would work and we would be able to reinstate the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, I think the elderly would be calling the shots, and they would find a way to get the young people, you know, in line.
	Well, I think they would if they weren't being bombed.
	I think it's very...
	They wouldn't be bombed if the Palestinian Authority was in Gaza.
	They wouldn't be bombed.
	That's the thing, though, isn't it?
	Who stops bombing first?
	That's the question and I think it would be a lot, I think Israel would gain so much by saying look, you know what, we're never going to bomb the Palestinians again.
	Never.
	Never going to do it.
	No matter what they do to us.
	The international community would have no choice but to rally around Israel.
	Because as soon as the Palestinians started firing rockets, there's no way to make that look good.
	Even if they're in a bad situation, there's no way to make it look good.
	And even I think from within Palestine itself, it would be one of those, look, would you please just stop firing rockets?
	It's not helping anyone.
	I wish it was true, but I can give two real-life examples on how that wasn't the case.
	I think the first example is that for six or seven years, southern Israel was shelled by Hamas for seven years, and no one in the world really gave a fuck about that.
	Sorry for my language.
	And for that seven years, Israel did not fire a single shot.
	And maybe you know a, an incident here and there, but definitely not stuff like you see now with the operations.
	Yeah, and that's after we completely withdrew from the Gaza Strip and there's no, we're not occupying the Gaza Strip from you know, from two thousand five, and so that didn't happen.
	You know, after six, seven years, nobody in the world came and said, you know what Israel you're you, you've been really, really calm about this and we are backing you up on this.
	And the moment we started Operation Castle, everyone was at our throats.
	That's the first example I can give.
	And the second example I can give is that during the time, I think the year 2000, two thousand one, eighty eight hundred Israelis died from suicide bombers and and Ariel Sharon was the prime minister then and he didn't do anything until a few months after we he was, he became prime minister and he didn't do anything.
	He just waited and waited, and waited, and then, and then there was this suicide bomber who went into the hotel and killed, for I think was forty families over there.
	So that was the last draw.
	And then Israel went with full force into the Gaza Strip.
	That was 2001.
	And the world did not back us up up until that point.
	So maybe if you know so many people died in 2001 and the world did not put pressure on the Palestinian Authority back then, was the Asar Arfat, not Mahmoud Abbas, to stop it.
	So as much as I would like for that to be true, to say that if we're going to say we're not going to bomb you ever again and just wait for the world to come and say, okay, we're going to bring the hit to Hamas right now because Israel is actually doing something right, I don't think that would be the case because it didn't happen for twice.
	Well, it's not necessarily about people to pat you on the back for that.
	It's the the thing is the the best Israel's going to get out of this situation, I think, is for people not to attack them.
	Because you know, I think Israel has done some questionable things to the Palestinians.
	I agree.
	Yeah, and and so it I you know, it's not going to be winning any awards any time soon.
	Yeah.
	But that's you know, it's that's that's beside the point, isn't it?
	You know, it's it's not it's it's in the past, so it can't be changed.
	The the question is what can be done going forward.
	Now, six years isn't really a very long time.
	It's it's it's very much um it's a it's a drop in the ocean, you know, it's a flash in the pan.
	It's it's over very quickly.
	Um the the Palestinians who are currently having the problems, six years isn't all that long.
	You know, the people who the people who have severe grievances against the Israelis are still going to be there and have those grievances, I think.
	Um especially if they're under a siege.
	You know, it's it may not be bombs dropped regularly, but it's it's an ever-present thing, you know?
	So it's going to keep it fresh in the mind.
	And again, I imagine that these these are thoughts that really run deep as well.
	So it's I don't think it's just about time.
	I think it's also about casualties.
	Because in the year two thousand one it was a very short periodo period of time but there were uh massive amount of casualties.
	You know, cafes, buses, hotels, discotheques with young kids in there, all exploding in uh in one year and snipers and is that in Israel or Paris Palestine?
	In Gaza inside Israel.
	I'm talking about Tel Aviv, I'm not in Jerusalem.
	I'm not talking about, you know, so I don't think I think Sharon waited a long time and probably first, you know, discussed it with the international community to find a different solution than going into the Gaza strip with an army.
	And I think that he did it as the last resort.
	And I think that now Israel is doing this operation as a last resort because I don't think they have any way out of this situation.
	Not that this operation is doing anything to get us out of this situation for the long term, but at least you know it's selecting between two evils.
	That's the problem, isn't it, at this point?
	Yeah, yeah.
	That's exactly the problem.
	But like you say, I don't think that invading or bombing is going to do any good.
	This is, again, from the Romans and the Samnites, right?
	There was I know this this history repeats itself, I swear to God, right?
	But there was a famous line from a Samnite commander who his son was trying to make a decision.
	They captured a Roman army, they cornered them, and he was like, no, you know, I'm not really sure what to do now, you know.
	And so he sends word to his father, and his father says, let them all go.
	And he says, well, that's weird.
	Why would you say that?
	And then, you know, so he sends another messenger to his father and who gets a different message back saying, kill them all.
	And he's just like, what the hell?
	And so he calls for his father so he can discuss it with him.
	And his father says, look, right, you've got an option of either killing them all and ending hostilities, or letting them go and making them not friends, but that was the word they used.
	And retaining the moral high ground.
	But anything else will win you no friends and eliminate no enemies.
	And that's the problem that Israel has now.
	It can't eliminate its enemies and it can't make friends of them by the actions it's taking.
	So it's not doing any good.
	And it's not gonna no one is doing any good for anyone, you know.
	So it's uh it it's it's one of those things that it's a it's a shit you know what the only thing I can agree with this line of thought is if Israel now would you know would do uh would say we will not bomb you anymore you know if you go to extreme measures and then go back maybe the you know the changing of the vector maybe that would do something.
	Could you explain that a little more for me please?
	Yeah yeah what I'm trying to say is because now Israel is very very strict with Gaza with the military operation.
	But if you if they'll start going in the other direction like you suggest then maybe the the change in the Israeli government's attitude towards towards Gaza would actually help change the minds in the peop inside in Gaza.
	Maybe that would do something.
	This is one thing that I can agree on and maybe that's a strategy that maybe Israel should try sometime.
	I can't think of anything else that might actually have an effect.
	That's the thing.
	So let's go with this idea for a second.
	Let's try to be, you know, there's a Jewish, I don't know if only a fool is a prophet.
	I don't know if you can say it in English or not.
	I'm not familiar with that phrase, but I quite like the if I'm understanding it, I like the way it sounds.
	Yeah, it said it's actually, to be more precise, is prophecy was given to the fool.
	I like it.
	Yeah, to fools.
	But let's prophesize a bit and try to go with this line of thought.
	Let's say for now that Israel is going to stop bombing the Gaza Strip and then what?
	How do you see the future unfolding?
	Well, I think it would be easier for me to say what I would do if I were in charge of Israel.
	And I realize that this wouldn't be a popular strategy with many Israelis, but I would certainly, I would probably drop leaflets apologizing.
	I would probably, I know that sounds strange.
	Okay, I'm with you.
	I'm going with the trail of thought here.
	Yeah, so I would probably address the people themselves rather than Hamas.
	I would stop dealing with Hamas completely.
	I would consider them an illegitimate government of Gaza.
	Because they were an elected government of Gaza, weren't they?
	Well, they were partially elected as a part of the government joint with the Palestinian Authority, but then they drove away the Palestinian Authority.
	They fought, didn't they?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So it's not that they don't have support, but I think that the support comes from grievances after bombing runs and things like that.
	Yeah, I can't imagine it's any other kind of support, really.
	So if I were the Israeli government, I would talk directly to the Palestinian people and say, look, we're sorry that this has all happened.
	This isn't what we want.
	And I know that people would just be like, well, that's just silly.
	That's ludicrous.
	That's idealistic.
	It's like, well, let's be fair.
	What do we actually need now?
	We don't need boots on the ground.
	It's not changing anything.
	And then I would probably do the killing them with kindness thing.
	I would give them the luxuries they want.
	And then when Hamas steals them all up, just keep saying, look, we'll just keep sending what we can.
	And if Hamas keeps taking them, then that's nothing we can do about that, is there?
	And basically, I think you're right when you say that it's the people of Gaza who have to bring down Hamas.
	I don't think an external force can do that, because anyone who comes in from the outside is just going to be fuel for Hamas.
	They're just going to say, Jesus, they're invading us now from wherever.
	Whoever is going to be able to do that.
	Yeah, of course, of course.
	So the idea is that it would start from inside and then reinforce from the outside.
	Exactly.
	So, yeah, I mean, I know it sounds pie in the sky and ridiculous optimistic thinker.
	Great flick, by the way.
	I haven't seen it, actually.
	Just right pie and sky cake.
	Skycake.
	I've never heard of it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, it's a funny.
	Watch that.
	I will do.
	I love it.
	But yeah, I really think that Israel.
	The only flaw I can think of in your plan is that I think that if Israel would kindness?
	Kill them with kindness.
	Kill them with kindness.
	They would probably be very, very suspicious of the Israeli motives because after all this time, after all this time, after all that has been done, suddenly an Israeli government starts showering them with gifts.
	What?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	These are bombed or trapped or something.
	Yeah, they're trying to trap us, exactly.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But the thing is, that's the thing.
	Just let them think that.
	And when they find out that actually, whatever luxuries that people actually manage to get, that Hamas don't just snap up.
	They find that it's a genuine, it's an honest attempt at reaching out sort of thing.
	Eventually, it won't be immediately, obviously, it wouldn't be immediately.
	But if for, say, five, six years like before, but really just doing everything they can, even enduring the rocket attacks.
	Because you've got the Iron Dome now, haven't you?
	So that seems to be quite effective at preventing rocket attacks.
	I'm not saying they're not scary, obviously.
	Obviously, they're terrifying.
	But like you said, suicide bombers and snipers are a real problem.
	But what can you do?
	What can you do?
	The thing is, even with Iron Dome, life here just became completely abnormal.
	And I'm talking about Tel Aviv, central Israel.
	My kids are not going to summer, there's a summer vacation, and my kids are supposed to be in summer camps.
	They're not going to summer camps.
	They're going to a summer camp that my workplace has arranged in a bomb shelter.
	So how long do you think Israel would be able to sustain it?
	For how long until the Israeli, let's call it the propaganda for the hearts of the Palestinian people.
	How long do you think it will take for this to take effect and for the people in Gaza to take down the Hamas government?
	And how long do you think the Israeli people could maintain?
	Because people, I know that you said you're empathizing, but I'm not saying that you're not.
	I'm saying that I fully believe that you are genuine here.
	But people do not realize what it means to live here.
	And I'm not comparing my life with the life of someone in Gaza.
	That's absurd.
	But still, this is a normal country.
	And suddenly everybody is scared and running to bomb shelters every day.
	How long do you think this is sustainable?
	Honestly, I think that everyone goes on at Israel.
	And I've done it enough times myself.
	Not out of malice necessarily, but just I tend to find myself looking at the power disparity between Israel and Gaza and just thinking there's no way that someone with so much more power than the person who is attacking them could ever be in the right.
	It's very hard to swallow.
	It's very hard to smile because it comes from an emotional place, not from a rational place.
	Actually, I think it's more the opposite.
	Having your emotional input is really making me empathize a lot more with the Israelis.
	And I mean, if it was the United States, I think there would be millions of dead Palestinians right now.
	You know what I mean?
	So the fact that there aren't, I think, is a testament to the control Israel has shown here.
	And I do agree that it must be very, very difficult.
	It must be.
	I mean, the only thing I can really think of to compare it to is World War II, which every day you would get German rockets coming over.
	I've spoken to my grandmother about this.
	And when I was a kid, I used to get up really early in the morning, and she'd always be up at like 5 in the morning.
	So we'd sit there, and instead of watching TV, I'd get her to tell me about the war.
	And I remember it really vividly.
	I don't remember why I was so interested in it, but I always was.
	And she would say about missiles.
	And I found it bizarre because obviously, you know, we were just living in Middle England.
	It was calm and peaceful, and the birds were singing outside.
	And so it was so difficult to imagine.
	Right.
	I don't want to say I understand, but I do think I get what you're saying.
	I genuinely understand.
	I mean, I can imagine.
	Obviously, it's terrifying.
	But the thing is, it's never going to end, is it?
	I'm not sure it's never going to end, because eventually, you know, the world changes.
	For the best or for the worst, but, you know, but...
	Okay, okay.
	It's never going to end in a way that's not horrible.
	In a way that's not going to blacken Israel's character beyond repair.
	Because the way that these things end in history is that the people who are losing die.
	They all die.
	They've ceased to exist, which is why there are no Samnites now.
	And there are still Romans.
	I'm sure that nobody wants to see the extinction of the Palestinians, the people in Gaza.
	So in effect, that's the only other option.
	Well, you know, you mentioned the Second World War, and I know it's something not that I wish to compare, but the way that that was solved, I think this is a very similar case when you have a crazy government controlling people that are, you know, they are not all at fault at what their government is doing.
	But eventually, Britain and the US had to bomb the entire city of Dresden and that, you know, and just bring down by attrition the German army.
	And I don't want it to escalate to that point where we need to bomb half the city of Gaza.
	I think this would be the end of days, as far as I'm concerned, if we reach that point.
	That's my point about blackening the character of Israel beyond repairs.
	Exactly.
	So I'm very skeptical about the conception that we can sustain a long term of not doing anything and not responding to rockets.
	What you won't be doing nothing.
	Firing to, you know, flying to Israel on a daily basis.
	If this would be the case, if Israel would be under rocket attacks each day, and I'm not just talking about one settlement, I'm talking about almost the entire, I don't know if you know it, but the range reaches North Israel.
	So they covered mostly all of Israel.
	And if this would continue for a long period of time, no, I don't see any way that the Israeli people would allow this to continue and allow the government for this to continue.
	And I don't think that any nation, any normal nation in the West would be able to hold such strategy for long.
	I kind of agree, but I also kind of disagree.
	I realize that Britain isn't Israel and the troubles weren't the Palestinian conflict.
	But one of the important things is to understand why you're not fighting back.
	Because there's no way Ireland could have resisted Britain if Britain had wanted to.
	Britain could have done to Ireland what Israel is currently doing to Gaza.
	But it didn't, and it didn't because ultimately there was never, I think the people in charge understood that there was never going to be a resolution that way.
	I got to say you were very lucky about that.
	That you had people with so open-mindedness the more I read about the history of Britain, the more I'm amazed at how forward-thinking the British politicians were.
	I mean, to the people as well, probably.
	I've got to say, I think that it probably, yeah, absolutely.
	I mean, one of the things, I listen to Dan Carlin's hardcore history podcast a lot.
	And one of the things that he's constantly talking about is the moral integrity of the British.
	And I'm not just saying this because I'm British and I want a bit of nationalistic pride.
	But it's hard not to be proud because, I mean, the thing is, it comes from the fact that Britain has never really had an existential threat.
	So it's very easy to say, well, this is what you should do.
	This is obviously the moral thing to do, and therefore we're going to do it.
	I imagine it's a lot more different when you're a young nation like Israel.
	Because, you know, England's been a political entity for about 1,150 years or so.
	So England is in the mind of the English, and Britain in the mind of the British.
	I mean, Scotland's been a nation slightly longer.
	So in the minds of the British, Britain is not going anywhere.
	But in the minds of the Israelis, I can imagine there's new.
	Comparatively speaking, it's new and it was born out of World War II, which was obviously horrendous.
	And so I can understand why it would be different.
	I can completely understand why it'd be different.
	And I can understand why the British would be looking at the long game, because it'd be very easy to say, well, obviously we're going to be here in 30 years.
	So we can plan for a 30-year, we can do that.
	And I can understand why it'd be different for Israel.
	I really can.
	Yeah, I wish the situation was the same here.
	I really wish it would be, but I think that's just not practical in this situation here.
	I agree with you.
	Unfortunately, it's not practical.
	I don't think Israel would be able to, the Israeli people and the government would be able to sustain this situation for a period of months or years.
	And I don't think, unfortunately, that this is possible.
	I agree with you.
	I think it's probably not possible.
	And you know, it's the same way you said about the Palestinian people when they are getting bombed and all they can think of right now is hating Israelis and supporting Hamas.
	And this exactly is what's happening, is what happened in Israel for the last 15 years.
	Because I gotta say that in 1994, when Itza Khabin and Yasser Arafat and Shimon Peres, you know, they went to Camp David, they signed the Oslo Agreements, they got the Nobel Peace Prize,
	and the Palestinian Authority was built, and there was a lot of hope and a lot of wind of change in the Israeli mindset.
	And a lot of money came here and businesses and everything flourished for a few years.
	What happened then?
	What went wrong?
	You know, even though they were a lot of suicide bombers, you know, Israelis were kind of, you know, there were a lot of voices that said, we don't want that, and let's not talk to Palestinians anymore.
	But they were the minority.
	And the majority.
	I don't know if you remember that.
	That was like 20 years ago.
	Okay.
	I was a soldier, and I remember there was a right-wing protest against the Israel government.
	And right after that, one week later, there was a huge, huge protest in Tel Aviv supporting the Itzhak Robin and the Israeli government.
	And that was the time that Itzha Karbin was shot by a mad Israeli.
	And that did not stop the Israeli government from going forward.
	But then I think that the turning point was, I remember that when Ehud Barak was elected in 1999, he was a left-wing government.
	I voted for him.
	He was left-wing.
	That was a left-wing government.
	And he went to Camp David with Yasser Afat to finalize the deal, like you say.
	And he offered the Arafat, I think, 95%.
	I don't remember the exact number, but more than 90% of the territories back.
	And Arafat said no, unfortunately, because this would be a historical moment if he had said yes.
	But then he said no, and they came back and tried to continue the peace talks.
	Just a quick question.
	Was Arafat against the concept of the state of Israel?
	Or was he prepared to recognize Israel's existence?
	I think his rhetoric then was a bit blurry before that point.
	Because I have to wonder how much pressure he had on him to not recognize Israel.
	Yeah, yeah, he was very blurry about that point.
	I don't think he I think he said it once, then took it back, then said it again.
	I think it was like, you know, he was playing the limbo game here.
	But that's really not the thing that was the turning point.
	The turning point was when they came back from the Camp David that failed, and instead of continuing the peace talks, I think somewhere Arafat I think he Suddenly made a shift in his strategy and decided that maybe he felt that we are so close to finalizing this agreement and he didn't want to,
	like you say, recognize the state of Israel and started the Palestinian state.
	So he instigated the second Indifada.
	And that just escalated.
	And I think it didn't just happen by accident.
	I think this was prepared by the terrorist organization, the terrorist groups.
	When we're talking about Palestinians and the PLO and Hamas, a lot of people don't know that they are very separate.
	It's not like a solid body.
	They are built from cells, sort of cells.
	Not cells, but factions.
	Like you got the Islamic Jihad and the Al-Quds brigades and all kinds of brigades and the Fatach and the PLO and it's a big mess.
	So I think they had a few groups that they said, let's go with peace, and a few groups that they were feeding the terrorists over there.
	And suddenly, they just turned the switch on, and all those terrorist cells just went off.
	And if someone would read what happened in Israel during the year 2000, 2001, because people don't probably know or remember, it was completely crazy over here.
	Completely.
	It was like Iraq, almost like Iraq today, only in a very small area.
	I'm talking about shootings every day.
	I'm talking about suicide bombers almost every day.
	I'm talking about so much violence.
	And Israel went to Gaza and went to Jenin and arrested thousands of terrorists and it was completely insane here.
	So that was the turning point where Yasser Arafat took right-left turn, which way.
	Probably not the left turn.
	Yeah, probably the right turn.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, that's what happened.
	See, I mean, I always wonder what.
	I don't believe that the religion is enough to make someone a suicide bomber.
	I don't believe it.
	I think abject desperation makes someone a suicide bomber.
	I think the religion is the catalyst, but it's not the reason.
	Well, yeah, in a large scale, that's true.
	Even there are a lot of suicide bombers that come from Saudi Arabia, not to Israel.
	Yeah, I'm not talking about Israel right now.
	No, no.
	About Saudi Arabia, Iraq.
	People are poor.
	They're going into madrasas that tell them all they need to do in life is to be a martyr.
	They go and they want to be martyrs.
	I think you've got to have no investment.
	Well, not no investment, but you've got to have very little to lose, even if it's going to get you martyrdom and you're going to go to heaven and get 70,000 grapes or whatever the prize was.
	No, no, there's a translation question there, isn't there?
	It could be virgins or it could be grapes.
	It's 72 virgins, yes.
	Yeah, but I was looking this up a while ago, and it might be grapes.
	Okay, never heard of that one before.
	Israelis can speak Arabic a bit.
	I'm probably talking out my ass there.
	Maybe.
	Yeah, maybe.
	But yeah, I mean, I think I'm probably going to have to call it there because we've been talking for longer than I expected, actually.
	So I hope that this has been interesting for people to listen to.
	I hope so as well.
	I'd like to thank you for taking the time because I found this very enlightening because it's very difficult to empathize with Israel on this.
	Very difficult because of the numbers, basically.
	Yeah, and I'm just going to wrap up with saying, answering to that, that I understand fully why it's very hard to empathize with Israelis.
	You open the newspaper, you see a horrible picture.
	And I know I would probably feel the same.
	But people outside Israel, they live in a completely different mindset.
	You know, people that live in Europe, in the US or in Canada, they don't, you know, and this is where I started from.
	You know, I started from a, let's call it for a second without insulting everyone, a naive point of view that if you are kind to people, if you're, you know, going to be kind to people, and I was a strong leftist, and that's what I thought a long time ago, and I kept that perspective for many years,
	then you know, things will get better.
	And I think you need to live here only if you live here for a very long period of time and experience all that has transpired?
	Transpired, yeah.
	Transpired in the last 25 years, you would see things differently and probably not be so, you know, so would be able to empathize with Israelis, basically.
	Yeah, yeah, I agree.
	I agree.
	But on the plus side, there's always going to be the part of me that I'll always empathize more with the Palestinians because they're getting the worst of it.
	Regardless of what Hamas does, the average Palestinian, they're in a shitty position.
	I can totally subscribe to that, and I totally agree with you.
	And I would probably feel the same way.
	I do feel the same way from time to time.
	It's not like I'm angry at them all the time, but I do feel the same way.
	No, no, I can't do it.
	A lot of Israelis do, and there's a lot of internal criticism in Israel about it.
	Yeah, you don't know the half of it.
	No, we don't.
	That's the thing.
	We don't get to see that.
	You know, international media is quite crappy reporting everything objectively.
	It's sensationalism, isn't it?
	Yeah, it's about appealing to emotion.
	Oh, yeah, very much so.
	Very much so.
	So if you follow, but you know, that's the beautiful thing about the internet, that you can go and watch a lot of videos that not just made by the media.
	And that's what's your uh that's what your uh channel is all about, isn't it?
	Yeah, that's what that's why that's why I've got you on now.
	I mean, I I would like to I mean the it's it's an unrealistic thought probably, but I'd like to do the same with someone from Palestine.
	From someone from Gaza, you know, I'd like to talk to them as well because I mean I'm not on anyone's side, that's the thing.
	I don't believe in good guys and bad guys, you know, and so I would like to hear the story of them as well.
	Now I would be arguing from the Israeli position to try and balance the situation out because I would love to hear that.
	I would love to do so.
	And if by any freak miracle someone from Palestine is listening and they would like to, just message me.
	I'd be more than happy to do the same thing.
	I will do that.
	I would be very happy to listen to that.
	I would.
	I would.
	Because I imagine they've got some terrible stories.
	And I'm sure that they've got much more just detailed knowledge of what the Palestinians themselves are thinking.
	And if you remember, I don't know if you remember a year ago, I think it was a year ago, when the Israeli government was all about Iran and they were scaring the Israeli people to bomb everything.
	And suddenly an Israeli came up with the idea of putting a sign on Facebook said, Iran, we love you, we don't want to bomb you.
	And that just went viral.
	I saw that, yeah.
	And the Iranians responded the same way.
	And that guy got a spot on Ted and he lectured on Ted with broken English like I've never heard before.
	Yeah, no, I saw that.
	It was heartwarming.
	I feel bad for Iran.
	They're in it in a bad way.
	They're surrounded by their enemies.
	They've constantly got the media in their enemies' countries beating the war drums against them.
	And the Iranians haven't really done anything wrong.
	They haven't invaded someone in like two or three hundred years.
	So it's I they've done everything they can.
	I mean don't get me wrong, you know, they fund Hamas, but the Americans fund you know, there isn't you know no one has any moral high ground to point fingers like that, so that's really not a stick you can beat them with.
	The only thing that the international community is afraid of Iran becoming nuclear, that's it.
	Iran isn't going to bomb anyone.
	They're not going to nuke anyone.
	I agree with you on that.
	The only thing I'm afraid of is it turns out to be that Arab governments are unstable.
	That's true.
	Imagine if Iraq had nuclear weapons and it falls into the ISIS group.
	That's exactly why the world is afraid Iran would go nuclear.
	I don't think they believe that the current Iranian government would do anything.
	Well in Iran's defense, Iranians aren't Arabs and they don't they don't have I mean well they're not particularly unstable are they?
	I mean they've they have elections they you know they have peaceful transition to power.
	Yeah and they have a pretty strong army.
	I mean if the army would take you know would need to protect Iran probably it would be able to do so.
	Yeah I would have thought so.
	So I don't think that I I think I think America uses Iran as a boogeyman, you know, like a sort of you know something in the distance that if if nothing else is working, so oh Iran, you know I think Israeli government is doing it as well.
	Yeah I th I think it probably is you know and I don't think that like like like the Facebook meme thing, the viral thing, you know it it doesn't reflect the will of the people.
	None of this reflects the will of the people.
	And so you've got to wonder, don't you?
	But anyway, thank you so much for being here and talking to me.
	It's been fun for me.
	Hopefully you can do something again sometime.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Definitely stay in contact.
	I'll be watching your videos.
	And I'd thoroughly recommend to everyone else to check out Skeptor's channel, because he does very funny videos.
	Thank you very much.
	No problem.
	Take care.

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