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March 28, 2014 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin
14:50
Jessica Valenti has some bad advice for you
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Hi, this is Jessica Valenti and.
Hi, Jessica.
And this is our second video in the new nation video series, Ask Jessica.
That's great, because I've got loads of questions.
The first one is, why would you call yourselves the nation?
Because the only other organizations I can think of that have the nation in their name are pretty fucking militant.
They're pretty mental and frankly, nobody in their right mind wants to be associated with them.
So this week, I'm actually not answering one question from one specific person, but a lot of people ask me variations on basically the same question.
It's a question I get asked a lot at college campuses.
Don't tell me.
They're asking for directions to the library, aren't they?
And it's basically, how do I convince my father, my brother, my boyfriend, my friend, my roommate, that feminism is important and that sexism is a thing.
Yeah, I'm sure there are loads of guys out there who are like, what?
Sexism doesn't exist.
It's not in this dictionary.
What are you talking about?
That's not real.
Get out of my face.
Nobody is saying sexism doesn't exist.
They're saying either it's not a big fucking deal or I don't fucking care.
I get sexism against me too.
It's not unilateral.
When I see portrayals of men on TV who are stupid as all fuck, that's sexist.
I don't complain about it.
I just ignore it.
I don't care.
It's not me.
And that it exists.
And generally these questions say, you know, this person is a good person.
They see injustice in the world.
They don't necessarily see it with women.
They think that women in the US don't have it so bad that we should stop complaining.
I'm going to cut to the chase here.
Those guys are right, and you should fucking listen to them.
Also, I'm glad you find these women suffering.
Suffering?
Why did I say that?
I'm glad you find this so humorous, Jessica.
So this is what I would say.
The first piece of advice I would give is to make sure that you're not talking to brick walls.
They've already done that, Jessica.
They're good people.
They see injustices.
They're not brick walls.
They're just saying, look, you guys don't have it so fucking bad.
What a terrible piece of advice.
I think generally in most feminists lives, there is always that person who's not necessarily interested in engaging, but they're just interested in pushing your buttons.
Don't engage with that person.
Think of that person as like a real-life troll.
You are a fucking idiot, woman, right?
I'm going to play the question again, and I want you to fucking listen to it.
And it's basically, how do I convince my father, my brother, my boyfriend, my friend, my roommate in engaging, but they're just interested in pushing your buttons.
Don't engage with that person.
Think of that person as like a real-life troll.
These are the people who love the person who is asking this question.
They are not real-life trolls, you fucking retard.
These are people who actually wants to help the person asking the questions.
That's what they're trying to do.
They are not just trying to push her buttons.
They are not real-life trolls.
And I don't even know whether you understand what you're saying.
You are saying, distance yourself from your family and your friends.
When they're trying to tell you the reality of the situation, distance yourself from them because they're not interested in helping you.
They are fucking trolls.
You are irresponsible.
That's what you are.
You are fucking irresponsible.
That is a terrible piece of advice that is just going to leave these women even more on their own.
They're never going to get married.
So what you're doing is making sure that they're cutting familial ties slowly by degrees.
You are fucking sick.
This is just a prime example of the kind of self-conditioning feminists have to go through to maintain that their ideology is correct.
Because if they don't do this, they will realize that their ideology is not correct.
In fact, it's fucking wrong.
Really wrong.
But you know what?
There are plenty of wild mice who you can lure into your place with peanut butter.
I think that we should conserve our activist energy, which is a really precious resource, and really use it towards the people who are interested in having substantive conversations and debate.
Bollocks, do you?
If there's one thing that feminists are fucking afraid of, it's the idea of a debate, because practically every single feminist argument stems from a fallacy.
Most of them are just appeals to emotion.
And for those people, I think what we can do is try to meet them where they're at.
And remember, you know, that not everyone you're talking to has read about feminism, has thought about these issues before, and that's okay.
Oh, it's okay, is it?
You think it's okay?
Are you sure it's okay?
Because everyone needs your validation.
So one tactic that I like to use that I think can be useful is to try to use pop culture as an entry point for conversation.
So maybe you want to send them, you know, a blog post that criticizes the sexism in Game of Thrones, if that's a show that they like.
Yeah, that's a great tactic.
You know what?
I don't know whether I should even tell you why that's a bad idea.
If you like something, why don't I try and persuade you to my point of view by attacking the thing you like?
That's fucking stupid.
And besides the point, Game of Thrones is not sexist in any way.
In fact, I've seen interviews with George R.R. Martin where he's been told, how do you write such good female characters?
You write female characters so well.
And his response, drumroll, I think women are people.
Oh my god, it's almost like he's not sexist and he hasn't written something that's sexist.
And it doesn't even necessarily have to be something that's critical, something that's pointing out the sexism of something.
It can be something that's pointing out the feminism of a musician that they really enjoy.
But I think that starting there can be a really fruitful place for conversations.
Yes, very short conversations that go, hi, can I talk to you about the sexism of Game of Thrones?
And someone's saying, no, go away.
I would also say try not to get angry.
And I know that that can be a difficult thing when you're talking about such sensitive and important topics.
But I think it's important to try not to put people on the defensive because that often sort of shuts down the conversation and they'll shut down and they won't listen to you.
That's very true.
So try and avoid doing things like implying that all men are rapists.
So one way to do that, to not get too angry and not put people on the defensive, is to ask them a lot of questions.
Ask them about their life.
them why they believe that pay inequity isn't a problem right if that's something they believe yeah ask them exactly why they think that being a secretary is exactly the same as being an engineer Ask them if they think that answering telephones in a call center should be paid exactly the same as, you know, top scientists.
Seriously, go and ask them.
Go and ask them why they think pay inequity, pay in equity, is the problem.
Maybe kindergarten teachers should be paid the same as, I don't know, generals.
You know, this is just fucking retarded, like every fucking feminist argument.
Go on, Miss Valenti.
Really?
Why do you think that?
Tell me more about that.
And the more that you ask people questions, the more they're going to feel listened to.
Why are you trying to trick people into feeling listened to?
Why don't you, and I know this is going to sound crazy, actually listen to them?
And the more likely they are going to be to listen to you when you make your points.
And oftentimes the more you let people talk about why they believe something, something will click with you and you're like, oh, okay, that's why they think that.
And you'll find sort of entry points to make your argument and to make your points.
Notice how everything she says is predicated on the idea that feminism cannot be wrong.
And at no point is the listener going to change their perspective.
And I'd also say, you know, you're challenging really socially ingrained beliefs when you talk about feminism and when you talk about sexism.
So you should expect some pushback.
It probably means you're doing something right.
Really?
Because when I'm doing something right, normally everyone around me isn't telling me I'm doing something wrong.
Normally, when I'm doing something that everyone else is saying, hey man, that's really wrong.
It's because it's wrong.
If someone's a little bit uncomfortable.
And that's even something you can say to them.
You know, you can say like, it's alright if you're a little uncomfortable.
It makes sense that you'll be a little uncomfortable.
You know, these are really intense beliefs.
These are stuff, you know, stuff that we're socialized to believe.
It's okay if you feel uncomfortable with the conversation and that can put people at ease as well.
I hope you're enjoying this advice on how to manipulate people instead of how to treat them like intellectual equals and actually try to persuade them through rational thought.
People who have a good and solid position don't need these tricks.
They don't need to somehow persuade them, make people feel a certain way.
They don't need to do that.
They present the evidence of their case and then people are persuaded by that because it seems to be correct.
If nobody outside of feminism is persuaded by your case, that probably means these things aren't rational.
I mean, you've demonstrated this, but it's one of those things.
This is feminism's major stumbling block.
It's the belief that these women's studies courses and gender studies courses that they do give them a perspective of superior, a position of superior knowledge, which it doesn't.
All it means is that they're brainwashed.
And so anyone who hasn't done it and isn't brainwashed is going to look at it and say, that's ludicrous.
How can you say that a kindergarten teacher should be paid the same as the chief of police?
And they'll say, well, and the person's just like, that's crazy.
Just because you think that kindergarten teachers are paid less just because they're women, you're fucking mental.
You are insane.
And then the feminist goes off the rails and then it leads to people like this who are like, right, here's how you trick people.
I'm a con artist.
Here's how to con them.
So the other thing, this idea that women in the US don't really have it so bad compared to the intense misogyny abroad.
Oh yes, I am on tender hooks.
Go on.
It is certainly true that there is a tremendous amount of sexism and misogyny in other countries.
But I think that there is a problem in the US of thinking that we have it, you know, we're so much better than other countries.
We don't have sexism here, like those poor women over there.
I think that's really condescending and I think that it's really untrue.
It's not that you are better, it's that the objective facts of the situation suggest this is true.
I don't even know what to say.
Do you think the fact that women aren't allowed out of the house without a male escort in Saudi Arabia means nothing?
Do you think that isn't a fact that proves you wrong?
And do you really think that women in America who run around in fucking ridiculously skimpy outfits in public are just totally oppressed, way the victims of sexism.
The fact that the legal system in the US is heavily weighted in favour of women, and it is in most Western countries, to be honest.
It's one of those things where it's just like, you are so mired in privilege that you don't see it.
And that's ironic, given how much you'll tell other people they have privilege and don't see it.
Yes, women in the US have made tremendous progress and women in other countries, depending on what country you're talking about, do have less rights.
That's absolutely true.
But fighting for justice is not a zero-sum game.
And you can fight for gender justice and you can fight for feminism here while also fighting for it abroad.
You don't have to do one or the other and that's okay.
Yes, I imagine there are a lot of feminists who go to Saudi Arabia to protest the awful lot of Saudi women.
Oh wait, no, they don't, because that would be dangerous.
The last thing I would say is, you know, you're going to have to realize, and this is sort of a hard lesson to learn and it's a hard lesson that I had to learn, you're not always going to change everyone's mind, right?
No matter how much effort you put into it or energy you put into it or how much you care about this person, there's always going to be someone who's just always going to think what they think.
And sometimes you have to accept that and that sort of sucks, but it is what it is.
Why are feminists so quick to use tautologies?
I don't understand that.
I've only ever heard feminists say it is what it is.
Well that's a tautology means nothing then.
And you, Jessica Valenti, sound all the more stupid for saying it.
That said, even if you're not sort of changing their mind and shifting their position in a really explicit, obvious way, I do think that you are opening that person's mind in a way.
So even if you feel like you're not making any headway with a particular person, I promise you that the next time they hear a rape joke or the next time someone brings up feminism or sexism, your voice is going to kind of be in the back of their head.
Yeah, it will.
And they'll laugh all the harder because of it.
Saying something.
So, you know, even when you feel really disheartened about your relationship with someone in terms of feminism and sexism.
You know, the normal way to judge your relationship with someone.
Try to remember that the stuff that you say to them, the conversations that you have, do make a difference.
Even if it's a small difference, it does make an impact.
Even if it's pushing them in the other direction, and it would have been better to say nothing at all.
So thanks very much.
I hope that that's helpful.
And keep talking about feminism with the people in your lives.
Yeah, God forbid you actually do something fun or productive.
Keep talking about feminism.
Because without you doing that, feminism might well die the death it should have died about 25 years ago.
Honestly, this is just such bad advice for anyone about anything.
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